New Restaurant Bears Hitler's Name

Right.

Does anyone complain about "Castro street", "Castro Valley", "Genghis Khan restaurant" in the USA?

First: I saw Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure: What's so bad about Genghis Kahn?

Second: This restaurant doesn't stop at utilizing Hitler's name -- it utilizes the imagery that he utilized as a terror symbol. (If I'm not mistaken, he utilized a modified version of the Swastika that differs from the traditional swastika that is common in India.)

Either way -- this restaurant's name gets very specific in an effort to gain customers through sensationalism.

At the moment, I'm wearing something that looks a lot like a swastika. But it's for Kwan Seum Bosal. The minute you attach Hitler's name, it becomes a swastika.

Yep, Hitler's sqastika is the mirror image of the traditional Eastern symbol for peace and tranquility. Clever in its own way, no?

Still, this is definitely a case of a business capitalizing explicitly on the controversy of the name to attract customers.I don't think it should be illegal, and agree that its financial success shoudl dictate the acceptability of its name.

What is a sqastika? Is that some kind of American Indian symbol of hate? I'm aware of the swastika, but the sqastika is new to me.

I'm just being an ass, by the way.

Sqastika was the colloquial term for "swastika" within some Nazi circles, which they adopted after its establishment as a Nazi symbol expressly as an ironic semantic twist, as the letter "Q" was considered by a number of Germans at the time to be a symbol tied to mysticism and curses.

Thus, "sqastika" was adopted in some internal Nazi circles as a way to sarcastically poke fun at how they've "cursed" the original peace symbol.

You also see how it came to be associated with the idea of racial purity, and why Hitler appropriated the symbol. The problem is not the symbol, it is harmless, the problem is with how Hitler used it.

Right but -- undeniably: Hitler + Swastika = Racial Intolerance. (Especially considering his Swastika is a more different Swastika.)

Challenge: Obtain a visible swastika tattoo. Explain to people that the image permanently etched onto your body is not in reference to Nazi ideals or Hitler in particular.

See how far you get with that.

For many -- the symbol has been irreparably damaged. I would also note that this restauranteur is "not" referencing the far older version -- but is purposefully referring to Hitler's version to drum up business through sensationalism.

While I will not advocate forcing him to take it down -- to try and deny the history or to say that the image should not be offensive is just flat out wrong.

move to India with said tatoo - I doubt you'll have much trouble convincing anyone it has nothing to do with Hitler (or the similarly named restaurant).

For many -- the symbol has been irreparably damaged.

Very true, We definitely need to remove the crosses from the churches, the inquisition has permanently damaged the symbol and the reliqous need to find another.

While I will not advocate forcing him to take it down -- to try and deny the history or to say that the image should not be offensive is just flat out wrong.

Very true, We definitely need to remove the crosses from the churches, the inquisition has permanently damaged the symbol and the reliqous need to find another.

I totally agree. And it represents not only the abuses of the Inquisition, it was also the symbol of the Catholic and Protestant missionaries who, in the name of the God of Love, tortured and killed millions upon millions of native peoples all over the world. AND, a burning cross was the symbol used by the KKK to burn on the lawns of people they hated.

I have often said it just needs to be banned.

Cause the original symbolism of a guy nailed to it and left to bleed/starve/cook to death is just cheery?

"A cross is a geometrical figure consisting of two lines or bars intersecting each other at a 90° angle, dividing one or two of the lines in half. The lines usually run vertically and horizontally; if they run diagonally, the design is technically termed a saltire.

The cross is one of the most ancient human symbols, and is used by many religions, most notably Christianity. It is frequently a representation of the division of the world into four elements (or cardinal points), or alternately as the union of the concepts of divinity, the vertical line, and the world, the horizontal line (Koch, 1955)." Wikipedia

Actually, the use by Christians is not unlike the use of the swastika by Hitler. As I understand it, the fish was the first sign the people who would become Christians used and the first use of the "cross" was during the persecution of the Christians by the Romans. Supposedly, Christians signaled each other by crossing their index fingers to form "chi" as the first letter of Christ. Couldn't find any references to this in a quick search and since the persecution of the Christians, like the Burning Times, is being discredited as propoganda, it's possible there's no truth to it.

There is something sinister about this. Time for a new conspiracy theory.

The swastika shape actually had a dual purpose.

The Navy base in Coronado was constructed as in such a manner as both a practical engineering measure and a nod to the history of the area, specifically Coronado.

In terms of engineering, such a structure maximized the amount of surface area, and thus windows and sunlight, that the residents of such a building would have. Such a design is more real-estate-efficient than an H-shape, a U-shape, or a cross-shape, common design motifs of similar high-occupancy buildings. Further, because of the symmetry of the building's architecture, discrepancies in the amount of sunlight which reached each window would be minimized, since the wrap-around shapes and light-colored building materials ensured that a good amount of light reached interior windows. Further, because of the rotational symmetry, of the building, it is not markedly vulnerable to destructive attacks from any one direction, making the structure more difficult to feasibly destroy or even cripple. Structurally, such a design is actually very smart for space efficiency, natural lighting concerns, and safety.

As for the historical basis for the shape, Coronado was a town that began prospering in the late 1800's as a trading town in then-virgin California. It was in a unique position in that (and surely the Navy took full advantage of this) it stood near the mouth of a very protected natural harbor, meaning that its strategic importance was to be reckoned with. It was thus that the growth of Coronado was markedly earlier and arguably faster than towns and villages in the surrounding area. It was to this bustling port town that, in the late 1800's, traders from East Asia crossed the Pacific to trade with a very young and newly established American outpost.

The traders who wore swastikas around their necks were known, above others, for their fairness in trade and their lack of a common penchant for stealing back newly sold goods. Thus it was that the swastika became a symbol for a merchant who could be trusted to hold to his promises and contracts. Thus, the architect who designed the building in 1931, Ron Shelley, used the historically local symbol of trust as a model for the central buildings of the naval base.

:-)

Very good piece of historical information. I didn't know all that.

Frankly, I don't know all that.
I just made it up.

It's pretty solid BS, though, eh? :-P

Soooo ... how do you think a restaurant named "The Pervez Musharraf Lounge" would fare in India? Think it would last a week before someone went postal on the place?

Sooo . . .how do you think a restaurant thusly named would fare in America? How many Americans know, or care, who he is? I suppose we could try it and see if there are threads like this in the Indian forums speculating on what dumbasses Americans are. :)

Sooo . . .how do you think a restaurant thusly named would fare in America? How many Americans know, or care, who he is?

Unfortunately, probably not a lot of Americans know who he is. And that is a travesty of another type.

But the point I was trying to make was this:

If they are making the argument of "what does it matter who the restaurant is named after" then having a restaurant named after the leader of the country who is India's nuclear rival and with whom tensions are, and seem to continually, run high should also be on no consequence. However, I am willing to wager, that even though Musharraf is not responsible for genocide of millions of Indians, the fact that his name was placed in that of a restaurant would be found appalling.

However, I am willing to wager, that even though Musharraf is not responsible for genocide of millions of Indians, the fact that his name was placed in that of a restaurant would be found appalling.

IN INDIA . . .if that restaurant were in the US no one would care and if the Indians tried to get it closed they would either be ignored or told to get over it. And how well do you think a restaurant named "The Crusader" sits with Muslims, given that the term is used in a derogatory way now. Well, there's one in Israel. The Crusader Restaurant. There are also more than a few Custer restaurants, which, as part Native American, I could be complaining about. There are restaurants all over the world that celebrate people and events that probably offend someone, somewhere. But most everyone but the Jews just live with it. They don't feel the need to scream ANTI-MUSLIMISM or ANTI-ABORIGINISM or whatever. It is no one's birth right NEVER to be offended. Please grow up.

All this anti-semitism stuff gets on my nerves. Does it happen. Hell yes. Are they the only ones in the world who endure prejudice. No. Do some of them behave in unacceptable ways and are some of them racists. YES!!!!

The thing that disturbs me is that India finds the Da Vinci Code more offensive than this.

A least they know a dog when they see one. :)

I hear that some of it is steamed.

Whoa, Holmes. I appreciate some good humor, but lets not cross the line please.

how about opening the Pol Pot Palace.

It's already been done. Pol Pot's Restaurant Now, do me a favor. Ask ten people you meet during the next week who Pol Pot is. Just random strangers. (I do this all the time with different names and events, it always amazes me.) Let know how many know and would even care if the restaurant were opened in your country.

Yeah, the "abomination" of an "Order in English" type sign is pretty stupid to me. If they want to restrict their customer base, who gives a crap, let them serve whoever they want, however they want.

Can you imagine an alien culture observing us and trying to understand this kind of twisted, ass backwards thinking?

I can hear them discussing us. "What the hell are these bipeds thinking. . .millions of their offspring are dying of starvation and preventable disease. . .millions more are living in poverty and abuse and they waste their time trying to get a man to change the name of his restaurant because it offends a few of them."

Gwenny: If they didn't have any background information to go by, perhaps that would be their take on it. If they had any sense of our history, however, I think it would be more like this: "Millions of their offspring are dying of starvation and preventable disease, millions more are living in poverty and abuse," and yet they see nothing wrong with paying tribute to a maniac who perpetrated such dreadful crimes against humanity just a generation ago!?!?

All this anti-semitism stuff gets on my nerves.

From what I have read of your comments, it appears that you would deny the living Jewish victims of Hitler's atrocities their disgust at this restaurant's theme. In your commentary, you hold up the examples of Custer and the Crusades as somehow being equally deserving of our disdain. While I agree with you in principle, I completely disagree with your using this as the basis for your poo-pooing this restaurant's inappropriateness.

Hitler's Naziism concerns living people-- many of his victims are still alive today. The same can not be said for victims of the Crusades or Custer. Fortunately, Hitler and the racist nationalism of his Nazi regime have no comparison in recent history, but that does not minimize the freshness of the lessons that should have been learned as the result of his despicable acts. Your attempts to portray the Jewish people as cry babies while "the rest of just live with it" is wholly ignorant of what living people went through at the hands of Nazi Germany. Grow up indeed...

From what I have read of your comments, it appears that you would deny the living Jewish victims of Hitler's atrocities their disgust at this restaurant's theme.

No, they have every right to their disgust. I happen to share it. I also think House of Mao is pretty sick. And the Crusader Restaurant in Israel. The difference is, I don't think that I have any right to keep someone else from doing something that does not directly effect me, just because I don't like. For instance, I consider fundamentalist religions of all kinds to be treatable diseases. But I'm not lobbying to have the sickos medicated, only jailed if they infringe on other people's rights.

But let me reiterate: It is not YOUR right never to be offended by something or disagree with someone. You don't like it, don't look.

Second, the Jews WERE NOT the only group targeted by the Nazis. They weren't. If you need me to do so, I will post the information again. The Nazis targeted ALL non-Aryan groups as well as Romas and blacks. There is still prejudice against blacks in Germany, I highly recommend a short film called Black Rider.

In your commentary, you hold up the examples of Custer and the Crusades as somehow being equally deserving of our disdain.

Yes. I do. As I hold the actions of Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, et al to be equally deserving of our disdain. People who hurt and kill other people are despicable. AND, THE JEWS ARE NOT SPECIAL. No matter what your religion has drummed into you, the Jews are just like us. Even a lot of them, most specially the Orthodox who think that Jews failed God and are working toward their repentance when God will restore them, do not claim to be special.

Hitler's regime (not Hitler personally, unless you are going to hold all world leaders personally responsible for the people killed at their command) killed what, 11 million people? Ah, yes "Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million." Let's look at the others.

Stalin's regime: 61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987

Mao's regime 40,000,000 to 80,000,000 (people still can't agree)

Here's a little tidbit I came across:

20TH CENTURY KILLED, BY CAUSE



   CAUSE            TOTALS    AVERAGES
             (in millions)  PER 10,000
                            POPULATION
   GOVERNMENT          119.4      349
     Communist          95.2      477
     Other non-free     20.3      495
       "    "  omitting Indonesia  397
     Partially free         3.1   48
     Free                    .8    22 
   WAR                     35.7    22
     International         29.7   17
     Civil                  6.0       26

Hitler's regime comes in third. Yet no one complained, as far as Americans know since we don't usually follow foreign news and this happened before I followed the news, about the House of Mao. I did follow the Pol Pot restaurant story, and people did protest. Just not Americans. Because who cares? :(

Hitler's Naziism concerns living people-- many of his victims are still alive today. The same can not be said for victims of the Crusades or Custer.

MANY is a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? OF course, the same can be said of the victims of Stalin and Pol Pot and the Chinese who suffered under the Japanese and millions of other people who were victims in the 20th century. Mao lived until 1976 (hmmm, coming up on the 30th anniversary of his demise.) I suspect there are far more survivors out there of his atrocities. As for the Crusades and Custer, I could contend that many of the people alive today are victims of the actions of the Crusaders (and the RC Church) and the govt supporting Custer. The wars we are fighting now are just a continuation of the Crusades, as the US President made very clear in the days following 9-11 when he said we were on a "crusade". And have you ever SEEN what life is like on some of the reservations?

Fortunately, Hitler and the racist nationalism of his Nazi regime have no comparison in recent history, but that does not minimize the freshness of the lessons that should have been learned as the result of his despicable acts.

The same can be said of Stalin and Pol Pot. Yet some of the people who supported Hitler are still in power and continue to persecute brown people everywhere. Racism is alive and well and non-whites are the victims the world over.

Your attempts to portray the Jewish people as cry babies while "the rest of just live with it" is wholly ignorant of what living people went through at the hands of Nazi Germany.

OMG, dude. YOU have no idea what *I* went through at the hands of my all white stepfather and sibs while my mother looked on. (Little half-breed bastard, thank you.) My step-father was German and his whole family hated me. Wanna see the scars I received from my sibs who never let me forget that I was inferior to them? Wanna know what it feels like to be leaned up against a wall in your underwear and beaten with a belt buckle until you collapse and then kicked because YOUR SIBS did something wrong? Do you even care because I'm not Jewish? LOL

PEOPLE suffer. It's part of life. It's a sad part of life. But you know what, anything you can walk away from, you can get over. It's time for us to let go of the victim mentality and embrace healing. It's time for us to stop giving the abusers power over us, even after they are dead, and start living for the future.

The Holocaust was over sixty years ago. It's time to move on.

Grow up indeed...

LOL I never intend to grow up. . .you what they said, "You can make me grow old, but you can't make me grow up." (Nearly half a century old and still playing video games! w00t!>

Um, what kind of 'half-breed' are you? Your pic looks pretty white.

Brain, does s/he have to look a special way to be of mixed heritage? Hell here in the states how much "black" blood did you have to have in you to be considered black, and thus unable to vote? Not much.

Racists are completely stupid. They don't care about how you look - just their petty perceptions. Gwenny could be a friggen albino and if a racist thought s/he were Indian (native american) then they would hate her just as much as if she were the spitting image of Sacagawea.

you go Gwenny! You are my new hero! You do realize that you are going to be called an anti-semite now, dont you? That's what everyone is called who has even an ounce of criticism for the Jews.

Hey finalcut, this is the internet. Someone I've never seen before on the site posts about how her German step father beats her for being a half-breed and then I look at her picture and she's just a normal white chick, that sets off by BS alarm. Someone who's half white and half something else doesn't look white in my experience. I agree with all her points about the Holocaust, by the way. Just don't understand why it's necessary to bring up the other points, and if they're brought up I'd like to verify their accurate.

Brian, I hate to say this, but you are a complete and utter moron, and a racist to boot. I have full blooded Cherokee Indians in my ancestry, if you saw pictures of them, you would swear they were white. There is also a band of Native Americans in North Carolina, who look as white as you or I, that there is some speculation that they might have mixed with the Lost Colony of Roanoke Island.

Please dont say stupid crap like that again and expect us to take you seriously. Just because she looks white, does not mean that she can't be half Native American.

In your experience, Brian? What experience do you have with half-breeds? Please enlighten us all.

What about Cher, Brian? Is she too white to have Indian blood in her? What about Shania Twain? YOu may want to re-think what you just said.

PEOPLE suffer. It's part of life. It's a sad part of life. But you know what, anything you can walk away from, you can get over. It's time for us to let go of the victim mentality and embrace healing. It's time for us to stop giving the abusers power over us, even after they are dead, and start living for the future.

The Holocaust was over sixty years ago. It's time to move on.

I mean no offense and I certainly don't mean to belittle your experiences but you're "one person" who lived a @!$%#ed up child-hood and you have a very particular view about how you would like to deal with that.

I do -not- think that the vast majority of Holocaust survivors feel that "moving on" is the appropriate thing to do at this point.

I also think that saying that people who wish to remember such an atrocity are unable to "get over it" or that they suffer from a "victim mentality". No -- they were victims who want to make sure that people never forget a moment in history that they feel (and many feel) needs to be remembered.

You've found a way to deal with your situation (which, horrible as it may have been is not comparable -- I'm sure there are individual jewish survivors who deal with the Holocaust in the way that you've dealt with your upbringing) but it's silly to expect the world to deal with history in the way you have.

It's also silly to belittle the way others choose to deal with their history.

Alicia Silverstone is half Jewish, half Scottish. Doesnt look a bit Jewish.

Norah Jones is half Indian, of the nation of India kind.

Wayne Newton, for God's sake, about as white as one can get, is half Native American, born in Roanoke Virginia.

Burt Reynolds, for God's sake, his father was half cherokee Indian.

Do you want me to continue to embarrass you?

Brian Ford, in typical fashion, you totally misunderstood everything that she was trying to say. The Jews can handle the holocaust in any fashion they like, what is so disconcerting is when they try to imply that only the Jews have suffered in this world, that the Jews are the only ones who suffered in the holocaust. Yes, the Jews suffered as has the rest of mankind at one time or another.

Actually, I didn't address that aspect of her comment if indeed she made it -- though I did address a completely different aspect of her comment, though. I could go through and pull out her quotes which I directly responded to, but since I already did that in my original comment, I somehow doubt you'd manage to benefit from my extra work.

In short: I misunderstood nothing -- I responded directly to her comments which are still available for reference. If it turns out she didn't say the things that I pulled directly from her comments, I'll humbly apologize but I'm not sure how I can take

The Holocaust was over sixty years ago. It's time to move on.

out of context.

On another note: I don't suppose you could throw in a few "more" comments -- is it asking too much to hope that in the future you can sum up your argument in one post rather than 7 or 8?

(For what it's worth, Norah Jones has a fairly obvious ethnic heritage when you look at her.)

At any rate, I'll take my predictable comment patterns over yours: You tend to be predictably confrontational.

so you pick out Norah Jones out of all the others huh? What about Alicia Silverstone? Unless I told you, you would have never known she was half Jewish, would you?

Sure, in the future, I will no longer post mulitple times.

Phaedrus, I guess I didn't read that other thread where she mentioned being Native American. In this thread she just said she was a half-breed, whatever that meant. I looked at her pic, she looked white. Don't call me a moron. I asked a simple question. How many times are people going to gently mention the COH to you? I'm through with it. Shut the @!$%# up Phaedrus. And for the last @!$%#ing time, THINK before you post and don't post five posts in a row, 2 minutes apart @!$%#. You never embarass anyone but yourself.

One of my good friends in high school George was half Cherokee. You could tell. Straight black hair and slightly squinty eyes. All the other friends I've had who were half white and half something else you could also tell.

my point before Brian was that you don't have to be 50% something for someone to call you a "half-breed" you can be just one little drop of something for an ignorant racist to latch onto and aim their hatred toward you.

I fully understand the "BS" meter - but at the same time one can never tell from a photo if someone is multi-ethnic.

Um, what kind of 'half-breed' are you? Your pic looks pretty white.

My father was Welsh/Cherokee. I was much darker when I was young. But my sisters were white blonde with blue eyes and porcelin skin you could see the veins through.

I mean no offense and I certainly don't mean to belittle your experiences but you're "one person" who lived a @!$%#ed up child-hood and you have a very particular view about how you would like to deal with that.

Have dealt with it. :)

I do -not- think that the vast majority of Holocaust survivors feel that "moving on" is the appropriate thing to do at this point.

It's 60 . . that's SIXTY . . .years. If they don't feel like moving, that is just fine. If they prefer to use up their energy holding on to the anger and the pain, I'd be the last one to tell them they MUST move on. But I'm tired of it and I have a right to say that. And I don't think I'm the only one.

I also think that saying that people who wish to remember such an atrocity are unable to "get over it" or that they suffer from a "victim mentality". No -- they were victims who want to make sure that people never forget a moment in history that they feel (and many feel) needs to be remembered.

There's a difference between remembering and wallowing. There's a difference between "this terrible thing happened to us and we want to use this as a way to keep it from happening again" and "oh, poor us, this is the worst thing that has every happened to anyone and we deserve the world to feel guilty about it for the rest of human history."

They are not the only people who have ever been mistreated. They aren't even the most abused group of people. The blacks were slaves for 400+. They were treated like animals. Native Americans are only just recovering from what the Europeans did to them. "Historian David Stannard, for example, has argued that "The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world. Stannard believes that the natives of the Americas were deliberately and systematically exterminated over the course of several centuries, and that the process continues to the present day. Stannard estimates that almost 100 million American indigenous people have been killed in what he calls the American Holocaust. 1"

You've found a way to deal with your situation (which, horrible as it may have been is not comparable -- I'm sure there are individual jewish survivors who deal with the Holocaust in the way that you've dealt with your upbringing) but it's silly to expect the world to deal with history in the way you have.

So, you are saying that one human's suffering is somehow more important than anothers? What exactly are you using as a yardstick? The amount of physical suffering? You might have me there, I feel pretty sure that the rapes the women in concentration camps was far worse than mine. . he had to be careful not to leave marks. The amount of emotional suffering? How do you compare people being hated by strangers to a child whose own mother tells her she is ugly and stupid and no one will ever love her and the mother wished the child had died? The length of time? If it's length of time, I win. LOL I was abused for 14 years. WWII only lasted six. The feeling of isolation? I have to say that if I ever had to endure suffering again I would prefer having a prison full of people to commiserate with to lying alone every night and crying myself to sleep.

Not saying mine is worse. I'm saying there is no way to compare suffering in any rational, objective way.

It's also silly to belittle the way others choose to deal with their history.

Not belittling. Just saying it's time them to expect the rest of us to keep suffering with them.

you go Gwenny! You are my new hero!

::blush::

You do realize that you are going to be called an anti-semite now, dont you? That's what everyone is called who has even an ounce of criticism for the Jews.

My first mother-in-law used to say, if they are talking about you, they are leaving someone else alone. LOL And they can call me whatever they like. It does not make it true. I am one of the least prejudiced people you will ever meet. I'm not anti-Semite, I'm pro human. I believe all humans are equal and deserve EXACTLY the same from each of us. That means that the groups who aren't looking for equality but superiority are going to hate me. I'm used to it.

"There are restaurants all over the world that celebrate people and events that probably offend someone, somewhere. But most everyone but the Jews just live with it."

Gwenny: First, what I disagreed with was your using other atrocities (less or worse than Hitler's) to support your argument that Jewish people have nothing to complain about regarding this restaurant. You certainly have every right to this opinion, but that does not mean that I have to agree with it. Second, nobody said that Jewish people were Hitler's only victims, nor does this figure into the debate. If white supremacists opened a Nazi themed restaurant in Washington D.C., do you think it would just be Jewish people screaming for it to be bulldozed? Do you think that it is just Jewish people complaining about this Nazi themed restaurant?

While I am sorry to hear of your personal physical and emotional scars, and I am happy to hear that you never intend to grow up (I wholly subscribe to this attitude myself), your personal story has nothing at all to do with this discussion. My questioning your apparent lack of compassion for what the Jewish people endured at the hands of the Nazis was in no way meant to trivialize your or anyone else's suffering. Thanks for sharing, but I am not sure what you are attempting to prove by your story. Your personal trials do not reduce the still existing threat of white supremacists, nor do they nullify the very real suffering of the targets of Hitler's brand of hate (Jewish people included).

Her examples were of other brutal dictators who were used as restaurant names. If you don't see anything wrong with the Mao and Pol Pot examples she gave, then you do have to explain what is so special about Hitler. I would also have to say that there is a zero percent chance that the Indian guy who is running this restaurant is a white supremacist, so arguments against that simply do not apply.

All she is saying is that the Jews are not the only ones the Neo-Nazi's hate. They hate everyone who is not white, which includes her, since she is a self professed half-breed. The Jewish people have put out this false idea that they have been persecuted more than any other group of people on this earth, that they have suffered more than any other group of people on this earth. It is absurd, if you will but think about it for just a minute. And the problem is that if you say anything about it, you are labeled an anti-semite. What a racket the Jewish people have set up for themselves. They have creatd a world society whereby no one wants to criticize them in any way for fear of being labeled anti-semite, and all because of guilt over the Holocaust. Where's the guilt for they gypsies and the rest of the non white who were killed in the ovens? where's the guilt for the American Indians? Where's their homeland?

Brian White: I am not denying that Gwenny's examples are worthy of similar ire. However, I disagree that the existence of other brutal dictators somehow minimizes people's right to be upset by a Nazi themed restaurant. That there have been similar or even more evil acts during the course of history does not invalidate people's upset at this restaurant. Also, for most of us, Naziism represents white supremacy. Unfortunately, regardless of the owner's beliefs, this restaurant's theme is unmistakably representative of Hitler's unique brand of racism and hate.

So Drew, where was the ire? Not present.

Also, you seriously need to remember this is in India. I'm not aware of India being particularly impacted by Hitler during the war. They may feel about him the way people here feel about Mussolini. You can read into this restaurant what you wish, but if neither the owner nor its patrons feel it's representative of racism or hate then it all seems rather pointless.

What a racket the Jewish people have set up for themselves.

Phaedrus72: I am certain that the Holocaust was a "racket" which the Jewish people would have happily spared themselves of.

This comment thread began as commentary on the kind of ass backwards thinking that would label this restaurant as a cute gimmick. It quickly turned into a rant against the Jewish people and how they somehow hold the Holocaust over the world's head. You tell me how the slant of this discussion should be characterized.

Gwenny: First, what I disagreed with was your using other atrocities (less or worse than Hitler's) to support your argument that Jewish people have nothing to complain about regarding this restaurant.

I wasn't using the atrocities to suport my argument that the Jewish people have nothing to complain about. I was using it to support my argument that the Jewish people are the only ones who complain and make the world news. The Pol Pot and the House of Mao, they are running fine. They were not forced by the outrage of a world wallowing in guilt about the deaths of a 40+ million non-white Asian to change the names. Only the more horrible suffering of the 6 million Jews rates the world news.

You certainly have every right to this opinion, but that does not mean that I have to agree with it.

How boring would that be? Heck, when that happens I have to take the other side just to spice things up. I don't like to do that because I usually offend people.

Second, nobody said that Jewish people were Hitler's only victims, nor does this figure into the debate. If white supremacists opened a Nazi themed restaurant in Washington D.C., do you think it would just be Jewish people screaming for it to be bulldozed? Do you think that it is just Jewish people complaining about this Nazi themed restaurant?

Really? Did any Roma, also of Indian origin, contact the local govt and demand that the restaurant be closed because it offended them? Did the newspapers say that it was because of Hitler's crimes against humanity that he is hated or because the 5,000ish Jews in India were offended?

While I am sorry to hear of your personal physical and emotional scars, and I am happy to hear that you never intend to grow up (I wholly subscribe to this attitude myself), your personal story has nothing at all to do with this discussion.

Do you play WoW? :) And I disgree. As a person who has suffered great things I am in a better position than most to find people tearing out their hair over stuff that happened 60 years ago and trying to censor other people because of it tiresome.

My questioning your apparent lack of compassion for what the Jewish people endured at the hands of the Nazis was in no way meant to trivialize your or anyone else's suffering. Thanks for sharing, but I am not sure what you are attempting to prove by your story. Your personal trials do not reduce the still existing threat of white supremacists, nor do they nullify the very real suffering of the targets of Hitler's brand of hate (Jewish people included).

I do not lack compassion for their suffering. I am questioning why we need to allow their suffering to give them carte blanche to censor other people. The logic you use to justify allowing the Jews to censor other people, if applied fairly to all people, would bring chaos to the world.

Bottom line, Hitler will have power only as long as the Jews and the rest of the world give him power. He's dead and rotted. We need to stop looking to the past and see the tyrants who are alive today commiting acts of genocide that are HAPPENING AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Darfur, Iraq, and any other number of places where people are dying horrible deaths, locked in the modern concentration camps, the refuge camps. You say that the Jews keep beating us with Hitler to make sure it never happens again. But it's happening RIGHT NOW. If the Jews in India REALLY care about humanity, they would be trying to help find a solution to India's religious problems and not stirring things up worse.

Hey finalcut, this is the internet. Someone I've never seen before on the site posts about how her German step father beats her for being a half-breed and then I look at her picture and she's just a normal white chick, that sets off by BS alarm. Someone who's half white and half something else doesn't look white in my experience.

OOops, sorry. I guess I forgot I was in a new place where people haven't been beaten over the head with my history and opinions yet. :) (Woohoo, a whole new group to tell about my kidnapped daughter!) Sometimes it amazes me that, considering that I've been posting in various forums online since 1992 and belong to almost every social networking site in the English speaking world, everyone in the world hasn't heard of me. Google gtpooh. LOL See the woman who can single handedly piss off liberals, conservatives, white supremists, blacks and cat lovers . . . all in the same day. w00t!

Btw, he was not beating me because I was a half-breed. He was beating me because he was a hugely angry person and I was an easy target.

...the Jewish people are the only ones who complain and make the world news. The Pol Pot and the House of Mao, they are running fine.

Gwenny: The Mao restaurants appear to be run by Asians (not sure what nationality) and the Pol Pot restaurant seems to be run by a Cambodian in Cambodia. I am certainly no expert on Asian cultures, but it seems that the lack of complaints or offense seems to be unique to their respective cultures. That is justifiably not the case with most victims of the Holocaust, and I applaud them for their activism. The minority Jewish population in India spoke out against this restaurant, enlisted the help of other Jewish leaders, and forced this restaurant to change its name. While you use this as an example of how "only the Jewish people complain," I see this as an example of how the living victims of the Holocaust have made it their duty to ensure that the rest of us are educated and never forget these crimes against humanity. Who would deny the importance of that?

Did the newspapers say that it was because of Hitler's crimes against humanity that he is hated or because the 5,000ish Jews in India were offended?

The minority Jewish population was offended because of Hitler's atrocities. The Nazi crimes against humanity are the reason that the vast majority of the educated world despises Hitler, Naziism and everything they represent. I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.

...I am in a better position than most to find people tearing out their hair over stuff that happened 60 years ago and trying to censor other people because of it tiresome.

Do you really think that your personal history of abuse puts you in the position to criticize people who were systematically being wiped out and kept starving in concentration camps? If anything, I would think it would put you in a position of being able to better empathize with them. Again, these people are not "tearing their hair out" over what happened to their people all of those years ago. They are seeing to it that Hitler and his despicable acts are never forgotten and never become popular again. Hitler may be dead and rotted, but a restaurant themed as this one was trivializes every evil act he perpetrated beforehand. Thankfully, there are still people willing to point this out to the rest of us.

Nothing about this restaurant would have made Hitler popular again. Nobody who is Indian is going to get into white supremacism. If the goal was to prevent that, then this is wasted effort. Meanwhile, Prussian Blue is the darling act of the white supremacist crowd in America. And stormfront is a hugely visited white power website. Guess what - these are people that are actually into white power.

How does this restaurant trivialize Hitler? Let me ask, does the board game Risk trivialize Hitler? After all you can play as Germany against the Allied powers. Do video games set in WWII trivialize Hitler's atrocities?

I am certainly no expert on Asian cultures, but it seems that the lack of complaints or offense seems to be unique to their respective cultures.

There were complaints. They just didn't have the power to FORCE someone to change something because THEY were offended.

The minority Jewish population in India spoke out against this restaurant, enlisted the help of other Jewish leaders, and forced this restaurant to change its name.

Ah, yes, the power of the minority to compel the majority to do their bidding. ::shakes head:: Do you feel the minority Arab population of Israel, for whom Crusader is an offensive term, should be permitted to FORCE the restaurant owner of The Crusader to change the name? Because, honestly, the Crusades, with the Inquisition, are right up there with the Holocaust. (Did you bother to reply to my request to ban public displays of the Cross? Worldwide the deaths that have resulted from missionary and military activity in the name of Yeshua bar Abbas has exceeded even Stalin's body count.)

The minority Jewish population was offended because of Hitler's atrocities. The Nazi crimes against humanity are the reason that the vast majority of the educated world despises Hitler, Naziism and everything they represent. I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.

No, that is not what was said. It is always about the crimes against the Jews. Even you have trivialized the other at least 5 million people killed as not as important as the Jews. As I said, Googling Holocaust doesn't bring up a reference to anyone but the Jews until the THIRD page of returns. Why?

[blockquote]Do you really think that your personal history of abuse puts you in the position to criticize people who were systematically being wiped out and kept starving in concentration camps?[/blockquote]

Are you saying that my suffering was less than any one individual? Because if you are going to compare my individual suffering with the suffering of an entire race, I demand that my side be joined by all the children who are suffering and have suffered abuse at the hands of Catholics and all the Native Americans who have suffered at the hands of religious perverts. And I demand, in their name, that every cross be removed from public view.

One on one with any ONE Jew, yes, I think my personal history gives me the right to have an opinion about their attempting to hold the world ransom with guilt and to speak it publicly. Do you think YOUR history gives you the right to tell me I can't?

[blockquote]If anything, I would think it would put you in a position of being able to better empathize with them.[/blockquote]

I do. In fact, it is my desire to help them move past and let the rest of the world refocus it's energy that drives me to speak out time and again, even though, as Phaedra pointed out, I am frequently called racist. :) There is ONLY ONE RACE, human. The sooner all the people who think they are entitled to some special treatment get over it and join the rest of us, the better.

[blockquote]They are seeing to it that Hitler and his despicable acts are never forgotten and never become popular again. Hitler may be dead and rotted, but a restaurant themed as this one was trivializes every evil act he perpetrated beforehand. Thankfully, there are still people willing to point this out to the rest of us.[/blockquote]

::sigh:: They are not going to be forgotten. They don't need to keep beating the dead tyrant. But as for keeping them from happening again, I can only reply THEY ARE . . .but to brown people no one, ESPECIALLY the Jews, care about. Abu Ghraib ring a bell? Oh, yes, some of them MIGHT have been enemies of the United States and so it isn't a war crime to starve, beat and sexually humiliate them. They are Arabs and they [fill in whatever vile lies Hitler told about the Jews] and need to be eliminiated before their conspiracy to take over the world comes to fruition.

Do you TRULY not see the irony of the situation? A few thousand Jews complaining about the name of a RESTAURANT, while the leaders of their homeland are destroying every Arab they possibly can? ::double sigh:: Hebrews against the Arabs. . .how long is the world going to let this nonsense go on? Isn't 5+ millennia enough?

Note, this site uses html tags, not the normal sanitized bulleting board tags, ⟨blockquote⟩ instead of [blockquote]. Highlighting and hitting quote is usually easier for me than typing it in manually.

Note, this site uses html tags, not the normal sanitized bulleting board tags, 〈blockquote〉 instead of [blockquote]. Highlighting and hitting quote is usually easier for me than typing it in manually.

::blush:: Yeah. That is the case for me, as well, in shorter posts, but in long ones everytime you click the buttons, it takes you back to the top of the post. . which gets freaking annoying. I suppose I have two options. One, I could just stop posting to Newsvine AND Tribe AND my blogspot AND Free Association simultaneously. OR, I could just be sure to proof read the preview before I hit Post Comment. :)

Actually, when it takes you to the top of your post, hit one of the arrow keys, since your cursor is still at its original position. Hitting an arrow key will make the text window focus on your cursor, pulling your desired edit into view.

THANKS!!! I can use all the help I can learning how to post correctly. :)

Hey no problem.

I still haven't figured out how to get Newsvine to correctly display line breaks once it starts crapping stuff up. I've resorted to writing < br > tags sometimes.

I agree with all those above who said you can't judge the race of a person just by looking at him or her. Take Bill Clinton for example. Looking at him he's as white as white can be. Whereas the truth of the matter is that he is the first black president of the USA.

I take credit for the "only Florida" tag.

Someone mentioned that the Christian cross has also been a symbol of murder throughout history. Well, one would bet that a restaurant bearing a burning cross and a picture of KKK member would immediately be urged into a name change (hopefully regardless of it's location on the planet earth).

People probably would object, although I just wouldn't go there. I see no reason to waste the time I devote to activism fighting something that is nearly dead. Besides, few people have been impacted by the KKK compared to how many have been tortured, maimed and killed by Christian missionaries and clergy. I, personally, loathe the cross. Whenever I see one of those ridiculous expensive displays I am reminded of my experiences for 35 years as a Christian . . which in turn causes me to contemplate the hyprocisy of most modern Christian churches and the violations against children and women that continue to go on in the name of Yahweh and Yeshua bar Abbas.

And I do vote with my money by refusing to shop any place that is blatantly Christian (ie, has crosses or fishes in their ads or stores) and places I know were founded by fundamentalist types, like Sam's Club and WalMart. And I encourage every humanist, atheist, pagan and heathen I know to do the same--in addition to my encouragement to shop locally as much as possible.

LOCALIVORES of the world UNITE. :)

Wow, I didn't know that Sam's Club and Wal-Mart were founded by fundamentalist Christians.

Can you go more deeply into that a bit? Also, was Costco founded by the same kind of people? I love Costco.

LOCALIVORES of the world UNITE. :)

Meh, I'm in New York City. The world revolves around us. :-p

Wow, I didn't know that Sam's Club and Wal-Mart were founded by fundamentalist Christians.

Sam Walton, who founded both, was very staunchly Christian. Until the 90s shifts are WalMart began with a prayer in Colorado Springs, according to several of my friends who worked there and complained about it.

From the link above: "The Sam and Helen R. Walton Award was created in 1991 when the Waltons made a gift of six million dollars which included an endowment in the amount of three million dollars to provides annual awards to new church developments that are working in creative ways to share the Christian faith in local communities."

He is one of two "Famous Christian" business men at Christian Advice.net

Soderquist, the foremost articulator of the Wal-Mart culture, wrote in his 2005 memoir, The Wal-Mart Way, "I'm not saying that Wal-Mart is a Christian company, but I can unequivocally say that Sam founded the company on the Judeo- Christian principles found in the Bible." Actually, Walton took his Presbyterian identity rather lightly, and unlike Soderquist, who has contributed heavily to Arkansas evangelical churches, the company founder thought profit sharing schemes and Ozark high jinks more central to the Wal-Mart ethos than do contemporary executives. But Soderquist is right in emphasizing the extent to which Wal-Mart exists within a cultural universe that is Protestant (Christian in contemporary parlance) even if corporate officers never declare this evangelical sensibility to be a component of the Wal-Mart culture. source

"Such anger perplexes other Christians who think of Wal-Mart as a family-friendly place and a company founded on the biblical values of respect, service, and sacrifice. Founder Sam Walton's autobiography indicates he taught Sunday school in his church, prayed with his children, and had a strong sense of calling to better people's lives. With the Protestant values of respect for the individual, thrift, and hard work, Walton was eager to improve customers' living standards through low prices.

'Is Wal-Mart a Christian company? No,' said former Wal-Mart executive Don Soderquist at a recent prayer breakfast. 'But the basis of our decisions was the values of Scripture.' " source (good article)

Sweet. Thanks for the info.

Sorry for double post, first comment didnt show up so I thought itd got lost.

Just out of curiousity, isn't not shopping somewhere because the owners are Christian like not shopping somewhere because the owners are jewish, muslim, atheist, humanist, black, white, asian, homosexual, etc, etc...???

Not exactly, because I'm not boycotting them because they are Christian, I'm boycotting them because they are shoving it in my face. I don't care what their religion is.

Hmm...that's curious. I had no idea what religion the walmart executive was. I've never been evangelized in there. Maybe it's different other places.

Besides censoring the music and only selling "wholesome" stuff, you are unlikely to be evangelized unless you work there. And that has probably changed since the middle 90s when I heard these stories.