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Intel Official: Expect Less Privacy

Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:00 AM EST
politics, united-states, terrorist, surveillance, as-congress
Pamela Hess, Associated Press Writer
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 3 photos
<p>Donald Kerr testifies at Capitol Hill in this Aug. 1, 2007, file photo. Kerr, the deputy director of national intelligence, said it's time Americans changed their definition of privacy as Congress takes a second look at the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act. (AP Photo/Susan Walsh, file)</p>

Donald Kerr testifies at Capitol Hill in this Aug. 1, 2007, file photo. Kerr, the deputy director of national intelligence, said it's time Americans changed their definition of privacy as Congress takes a second look at the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act. (AP Photo/Susan Walsh, file)

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WASHINGTON — As Congress debates new rules for government eavesdropping, a top intelligence official says it is time that people in the United States changed their definition of privacy.

Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguard people's private communications and financial information.

Kerr's comments come as Congress is taking a second look at the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Lawmakers hastily changed the 1978 law last summer to allow the government to eavesdrop inside the United States without court permission, so long as one end of the conversation was reasonably believed to be located outside the U.S.

The original law required a court order for any surveillance conducted on U.S. soil, to protect Americans' privacy. The White House argued that the law was obstructing intelligence gathering because, as technology has changed, a growing amount of foreign communications passes through U.S.-based channels.

The most contentious issue in the new legislation is whether to shield telecommunications companies from civil lawsuits for allegedly giving the government access to people's private e-mails and phone calls without a FISA court order between 2001 and 2007.

Some lawmakers, including members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, appear reluctant to grant immunity. Suits might be the only way to determine how far the government has burrowed into people's privacy without court permission.

The committee is expected to decide this week whether its version of the bill will protect telecommunications companies. About 40 wiretapping suits are pending.

The central witness in a California lawsuit against AT&T says the government is vacuuming up billions of e-mails and phone calls as they pass through an AT&T switching station in San Francisco.

Mark Klein, a retired AT&T technician, helped connect a device in 2003 that he says diverted and copied onto a government supercomputer every call, e-mail, and Internet site access on AT&T lines.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which filed the class-action suit, claims there are as many as 20 such sites in the U.S.

The White House has promised to veto any bill that does not grant immunity from suits such as this one.

Congressional leaders hope to finish the bill by Thanksgiving. It would replace the FISA update enacted in August that privacy groups and civil libertarians say allows the government to read Americans' e-mails and listen to their phone calls without court oversight.

Kerr said at an October intelligence conference in San Antonio that he finds concerns that the government may be listening in odd when people are "perfectly willing for a green-card holder at an (Internet service provider) who may or may have not have been an illegal entrant to the United States to handle their data."

He noted that government employees face up to five years in prison and $100,000 in fines if convicted of misusing private information.

Millions of people in this country — particularly young people — already have surrendered anonymity to social networking sites such as MySpace and Facebook, and to Internet commerce. These sites reveal to the public, government and corporations what was once closely guarded information, like personal statistics and credit card numbers.

"Those two generations younger than we are have a very different idea of what is essential privacy, what they would wish to protect about their lives and affairs. And so, it's not for us to inflict one size fits all," said Kerr, 68. "Protecting anonymity isn't a fight that can be won. Anyone that's typed in their name on Google understands that."

"Our job now is to engage in a productive debate, which focuses on privacy as a component of appropriate levels of security and public safety," Kerr said. "I think all of us have to really take stock of what we already are willing to give up, in terms of anonymity, but (also) what safeguards we want in place to be sure that giving that doesn't empty our bank account or do something equally bad elsewhere."

Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an advocacy group that defends online free speech, privacy and intellectual property rights, said Kerr's argument ignores both privacy laws and American history.

"Anonymity has been important since the Federalist Papers were written under pseudonyms," Opsahl said. "The government has tremendous power: the police power, the ability to arrest, to detain, to take away rights. Tying together that someone has spoken out on an issue with their identity is a far more dangerous thing if it is the government that is trying to tie it together."

Opsahl also said Kerr ignores the distinction between sacrificing protection from an intrusive government and voluntarily disclosing information in exchange for a service.

"There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties," he said. "We shouldn't have to give people the choice between taking advantage of modern communication tools and sacrificing their privacy."

"It's just another 'trust us, we're the government,'" he said.

___

On the Net:

Kerr's speech: http://tinyurl.com/23dycq

© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (79)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Scott Isaacs

I really hope that immunity isn't doled out to the telecoms. 1) They shouldn't have cooperated with something they knew was illegal 2) They rolled over so now a civil suit is the only exculpatory means to find out how far government interference went 3) There needs to be a redefinition of privacy after the Bush administration's rub out on individual freedoms post-9-11.

  • 30 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:00 AM EST
Gas Pants Press

Scott, I agree with you!

  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:43 AM EST
ComSen

They shouldn't have cooperated with something they knew was illegal

This is unlikely since international monitoring is not illegal and you don't "know" legal issues until decided by the courts.

So in time of national emergency, you would like the telecommunication companies to wait a year or two (or more) until the legal basis is determined?

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:51 AM EST
iarnuocon

So in time of national emergency, you would like the telecommunication companies to wait a year or two (or more) until the legal basis is determined? No, I'd like the telecommunications companies to say, "Where's your warrant? Oh, there it is. Ok, here you go."

The whole point of having gotten a warrant is that a judge can sign off on the legalities prior to the action, rather than waiting a year or two later for the case to wind up in his court.

  • 12 votes
#1.3 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:03 PM EST
Scott Isaacs

Would it have been terribly difficult for the government to get a FISA warrant after 9-11? The warrant is a way of of checking government power and the telecoms subverted that by compliantly handing over anything coming across their lines to the government. Qwest put up a fight, what was the problem with the rest of the telecoms? Furthermore, if the government makes the telecoms immune to civil suits how are we citizens to protect our rights? Are we not allowed to have any recourse to right wrongs committed by our own government?

  • 8 votes
#1.4 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:11 PM EST
JoulesBeef

comsen this was started long before 9-11
so unless you national emergency was busg becoming president your point is moot.
its also one thing to have the cia rush in and say.."we need to monitor these 1000 numbers immediately" vs "we neeed to monitor every single solitary thing forever"
it was oviously illegal, no there should be no immunity.

See the problem is they want immunity for something they wont tell us they did..aka start this prior to 9-11, otherwise like torture, there needs to be no exception, if somone saves the us, he wont go to jail even doing something illegal, just like i wont get a ticket for j-walking if i am rushing to help somone who collapsed on the otherside of the street.
see that why we use judges and juries rather than computers.
there is zero .. zero valid reasons for immunity/.

  • 7 votes
#1.5 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:42 PM EST
Reply
Dwight Overturf

Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguards people's private communications and financial information.

Is he kidding?

Are these the same government and businesses that have many times lost and/or exposed the private information of millions of Americans? Redefining our freedoms and rights in order to shield the wrong doers in the administration and government agencies is despicable! However, I doubt that our spineless Congress will do the right thing.

  • 21 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:14 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

The Democrats need to take a stand on this, among many things. This Congress is turning into a "do-nothing" Congress under Pelosi that is not acting on the issues that the American people are concerned with. I'm a conservative Democrat and, honestly, this Congressional inaction is starting to sour the public and concern me about the 2008 elections.

  • 16 votes
#2.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:14 AM EST
Dwight Overturf

I agree completely Scott.

  • 1 vote
#2.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:29 AM EST
ericfive

Isn't this the bill Dodd is threatening to filibuster?

  • 3 votes
#2.3 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:41 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

I hope so, someone needs to put a halt to this.

  • 3 votes
#2.4 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:44 AM EST
Reply
jruesch02

Do you think privacy is dead? a myth? I am beginning to think, if we ever had much privacy, those rights are all but gone...especially under this administrations rule. Just a thought...

  • 6 votes
Reply#3 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:08 AM EST
iarnuocon

I think it's time Donald Kerr changed what he considers "citizenship." Pack him up and ship him off, since he's obviously not upholding his oath to defend the Constitution.

  • 20 votes
Reply#4 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:16 AM EST
Wheel

redefine=eradicate, next they'll put cameras in our bedrooms, but they will promise not to look.

  • 19 votes
Reply#5 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:28 AM EST
DamianKD

Their defense will go like this: You shouldn't be worried, if you have nothing to hide.

  • 11 votes
#5.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:33 AM EST
Reply
Dom Pody

Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, a deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguards people's private communications and financial information.

He's not redefining it, he's destroying it.

  • 11 votes
Reply#6 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:42 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

Privacy without anonymity is not privacy.

  • 19 votes
#6.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:08 AM EST
Thura

The US is a late by 23 years, but at least it is getting close to 1984.

  • 9 votes
#6.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:03 AM EST
Tacitus13

Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, a deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguards people's private communications and financial information.

Wow, I feel safer already. Maybe the government should tell me what I should think too...

  • 5 votes
#6.3 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:31 PM EST
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

Wow, I feel safer already. Maybe the government should tell me what I should think too...

That's what the media is for.

  • 6 votes
#6.4 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:56 PM EST
Reply
Belarius

Truly, we are living in the age of metagovernment. Forget discussing the pros and cons of policy. Debate today, at least across the partisan divide, seems increasingly dominated by arguments over what words mean.

Since everyone knows that torture is a bad word, let's just campaign to move the things we want to do to people out of the definition. Since objective science produces inconvenient results for some of out constituents, let's migrate the objectivity out of science and still call the resulting shill-work "science." We want to know what kind of porn you're looking at, so let's take the long-standing implication that "private" means "none of our business" and remove "none of."

It's like we've been taken over by the worst Lincoln-Douglas debaters of an entire generation. Anyone who has debated in competition knows that definitional debates are the worst kinds of debates. Not only is someone who constantly tries to invent new interpretations of words annoying, but they also tend to end up painting themselves into incoherent corners.

This isn't to say that Kerr doesn't have a point, to an extent. Protecting one's privacy is harder than ever before. What's baffling about Kerr's argument, however, is that Kerr apparently wants us to believe that traditional anonymity is no longer possible. Clearly, Kerr isn't familiar (or doesn't want us to be familiar) with encryption, distributed computing, proxy servers, or steganography. Hell, the mathematical appendix to Cryptonomicon includes a method for encrypting a message using playing cards that is so powerful, it limits the countries the book can be sold in. Let me repeat: using playing cards. It's time-consuming, but it's hardly impossible. Privacy is alive and well for those of us who have an interest in sustaining it.

  • 20 votes
Reply#7 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:59 AM EST
iarnuocon

It would be nice if some of these Congressional @!$%#s held aces and eights. They might get the message that privacy is not negotiable, and the government derives its power from the people, not the peopl their rights from government largesse.

  • 9 votes
#7.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:17 AM EST
Dom Pody

It's like we've been taken over by the worst Lincoln-Douglas debaters of an entire generation.

You just made my day. I literally laughed out loud. I mean, you're completely right, but using LD to describe American policy, on an Internet forum, is hysterical.

[As you may be able to tell, I don't do LD, haha.]

  • 8 votes
#7.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:23 AM EST
Reply
Phaedrus72

I told you guys that AT&T was the devil. I hope you guys enjoy your iPhones, seeing as the government is listening in.

  • 6 votes
Reply#8 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:00 AM EST
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

The People are the sovereigns in this country. The government does not need to know what we are up to, as much as we need to know what they are up to!
They are turning our Democracy on it's Head! Welcome to the dawn of American Fascism.

  • 8 votes
Reply#9 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:05 AM EST
DamianKD

It already dawned. This is more like the Early Morning of American Fascism.

  • 7 votes
#9.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:39 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

You know what Reagan used to say: "It's morning again in America." ;-)

  • 5 votes
#9.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:53 AM EST
jdoyle

You know what Reagan used to say: "It's morning again in America." ;-)

When it came to Reagan it was "mourning in America"; he was the one who started the neocon revolution which Bush is a product of.

  • 5 votes
#9.3 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:13 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

That was a little joke that since morning was equated with a tilt towards fascism in America, I brought Ronnie up because his movement begat this type of policy. ;-)

  • 3 votes
#9.4 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:17 AM EST
Reply
polecolaw

Privacy isn't gone - its been morphed into privatization - like the private army we call Blackwater and the clearing room at AT&T. Congress needs to act. The more I hear about these issues the more they start lending credence to the people you see on television insisting they have a right to their machine guns and other serious weaponry. I used to think they were loony, but now? Congress has been a huge disappointment, as has the media. Action is required, either to set us straight on what we don't need to worry about or stop what we do need to worry about. Write your congresspersons now!

  • 3 votes
Reply#10 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:09 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

It's time for the Democrats to earn their stripes carrying water for the cause of civil rights.

  • 7 votes
#10.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:11 AM EST
Reply
BlaiseP

While everyone runs around in little circles, flapping their wrists and shrieking about the government looking at their phone calls, the real villains, the credit agencies, routinely collect absolutely amazing amounts of personal data about them. This information is sold, stolen, traded or otherwise misused. Every time you use the little discount card from the supermarket, every time you make a debit card transaction, data is getting socked away about your earning and spending trends. Your IP address can be mapped to the zip code of your ISP: that affects which ad you'll see on a given website. Even your cell phone can be used to track your location.

Scott McNealy, the head of Sun Microsystems, was asked many years ago about privacy: "There is no privacy. Get over it."

I do a fair bit of government consulting, on secure websites. While I'm no fan of the government snooping on us, it's clearly a Fourth Amendment problem, I'm far more afraid of civilians and what they can do with my Equifax data.

  • 17 votes
Reply#11 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:35 AM EST
Wheel

you are so right.

  • 7 votes
#11.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:43 AM EST
jdoyle

BlaiseP, you are right with what you said, but the Bush Administration is now trying to institutionalize it and make it acceptable.

  • 8 votes
#11.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:47 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

If we can't get the government to comply and protect Americans' rights, what hope do we have of getting corporations to fall in line when it comes to privacy rights? Government is the first one that has to fall in line because we must use it as an instrument to control every other institute with a vested interest in violating our right to privacy as Americans.

  • 4 votes
#11.3 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:56 AM EST
Reply
jdoyle

This is insane. This is one of the biggest affronts to our freedoms the Bush Administration has come up with to date.
Where the the right wingers who scream about small government? Why are they silent now?

No business has the right to my personal information if I don't want them to have it. This to me is worse than the government having my personal information.

  • 8 votes
Reply#12 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:36 AM EST
rhodezone

Where the the right wingers who scream about small government?

They're the same right-wingers that scream about a strong national defense against all enemies, foreign and domestic. To me, it's an absurd policy paradox, but the two positions have been embodied in the Republican party since at least the beginning of the Cold War.

  • 3 votes
#12.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:11 PM EST
Affinity

Where the the right wingers who scream about small government? Why are they silent now?

It boggles my mind that the Bill O'Reily's and the Hanity's and all the Americans that follow their rhetoric supposedly believe in small government, call regulation invasion and wish to protect America from enemies but FAIL to understand the importance of these violations of our freedom IN PLAIN SIGHT. We have an administration official attempting to redefine a part of freedom to become less free. Its a coup against freedom, essentially. Congress has to stop rolling over, seriously. And Americans need to become smarter. Its like the right wingers all drink the Administration's special kool-aid and follow like zombies; if you aren't with them you are against them.

  • 3 votes
#12.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:38 PM EST
Reply
Gas Pants Press

Corporate Security State Operative and revolving door case study, Donald Kerr, says "it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguards people's private communications and financial information."

Trust them. Trust them. Trust them.

Dr. Kerr held several key executive positions in private industry. From 1996 to 1997, he was Executive Vice President and Director at Information Systems Laboratories, Inc. From 1993 to 1996, he was Corporate Executive Vice President and Director at Science Applications International Corporation. Dr. Kerr was President and Director of EG&G, Inc., from 1989 to 1992. He also served as Senior Vice President and Executive Vice President, respectively, at EG&G from 1985 to 1989.

  • 4 votes
Reply#13 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:49 AM EST
Scott Isaacs

Why am I not surprised at his background? LOL

  • 3 votes
#13.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:58 AM EST
Reply
JOTHI NARAYANAN

An exception to the opinion of the new intelligent chief of America.I agree with you but this definition of
privacy means 'protecting the people's communication and financial details has become universal by the
revolution of IT and core banking system.The challenge before the government is stupendous.

    Reply#14 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:59 AM EST
    JOTHI NARAYANAN

    An exception to the opinion of the new intelligent chief of America.I agree with you but this definition of
    privacy means 'protecting the people's communication and financial details has become universal by the
    revolution of IT and core banking system.The challenge before the government is stupendous.

      Reply#15 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:05 AM EST
      Scarlet Termite

      There are exhortations to write Congress about this matter and others but isn't it evident that those pleas for change are falling on deaf ears? I have written Senator George Voinovich twice about the Iraqi war, the second letter informed him that because of his spineless toeing of the party line that he would never receive another vote from me and I would ask my friends and family to not vote for him. I got the exact same form letter both times.

      The elected non-representative government doesn't care about the constituency. They care about money, power, and re-election. Writing Congress is an exercise in futility as are letters to the editor etc. The only way change will come is if we Americans stop voting these people back into office, stop flocking to the stores to buy things we do not need with money we do not have, start clamoring en masse for better education and schools, stop watching Fox News (actually stop watching Fox altogether), stop expecting to be bailed out every time we get in over our heads. When Americans stop being apathetic and start being what we keep telling ourselves we are, the change will come.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#16 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:10 AM EST
      Scott Isaacs

      I agree. The public needs to take responsibility for not hindering Bush from going to war. Webroke Iraq, we bought it, it's time to fix it before we go blowing out of there.

      • 3 votes
      #16.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:25 AM EST
      Reply
      oldfogey

      It didn't start with Clinton but until we define what is means we might as well be throwing cotton balls into the wind. US government is broken. It has become an underground operation. It is UnAmerican. It is incompetent and ineffectual. Until the People take back what rightly belongs to them, all else will fail. There is no way to doctor our system, it is terminally ill. All the People are exhibiting symptoms.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#17 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:12 AM EST
      iarnuocon

      See Privacy and the Panopticon: An Open Letter to Donald Kerr.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#18 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:19 AM EST
      Dr Know

      I get a big laugh when the Pols talk about the strict penalties they will impose for private data being released.

      1) Once released, it cannot be put back.

      2) The government is the worst offender.

      I am strongly against electronic medical records. It is already too easy for someone to see your most private information. Now it can be spread across the world in a matter of a few moments. If you lose your job because of what someone reveals about you, you simply cannot be "made whole again" (the supposed goal of civil suits).

      • 4 votes
      Reply#19 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:38 AM EST
      Phaedrus72

      I'm curious, the title of this article has changed 3 times since it came down the AP line, it's only been here maybe 30 minutes at the most? It has changed to be more derogatory each successive change. Who is responsible for this? The AP? I'd really like to know.

      • 1 vote
      #20 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:14 PM EST
      Scott Isaacs

      It's been here for several hours. Note the timestamp on my earlier comments.

        #20.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:45 PM EST
        Phaedrus72

        Ok, well that still doesn't explain the several title changes, each one being more contentious than the last. It started out as "intelligence official says it is time people in the United States changed their definition of privacy." Then it morphed into something else, and now it is what it is now, which is disingenuous and misleading because the intelligence official never said, "Say Goodbye to privacy". It's stuff like this that lends support to those of us who believe there is a liberal slant to the MSM, including the AP.

          #20.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:55 PM EST
          iarnuocon

          That I've seen, the current title is the second change since I ran across this article this morning.

          • 3 votes
          #20.3 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:55 PM EST
          Phaedrus72

          Don't you find something just a tad bit sinister about this?

          • 1 vote
          #20.4 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:00 PM EST
          More Than Happy

          There's not enough of a slant to the AP. They've been mealy-mouthing the truth for too long, and people are dying because of it.

          • 2 votes
          #20.5 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:02 PM EST
          spiffie

          The AP is responsible. They often change the headlines on their stories, and sometimes change the text itself.

          • 2 votes
          #20.6 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:05 PM EST
          iarnuocon

          Don't you find something just a tad bit sinister about this? Sure, it shows some of the dangers of relying only on electronic media. This is the reason that, aside from fixing a typo or two, I never change articles I've written.

          A number of online news sources actively revise their stories after publication/posting.

          It raises the specter of a nascent memory hole.

          • 5 votes
          #20.7 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:19 PM EST
          Phaedrus72

          he AP Stylebook has become the de facto standard for newswriting in the United States. The AP has a straightforward, "just-the-facts" writing style

          From wikipedia. I guess that straightforward, "just the fact" style doesn't include the titles, in which they edit and distort so as to provide a political slant. How can anyone consider this title, especially after reading the story, to be "just the facts"? This intel officer most definitely did NOT say "..." well I'll by a monkey's ass, I just went up there to copy and paste the title, only to find the title changed again. This is ridiculous, or maybe they got complains about the last title and changed it something a little more innocuous and "straightforward"

            #20.8 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:31 PM EST
            Phaedrus72

            I think something truly sinister is going on here. That offensive title was up there just long enough, all of us saw it, to prove that the AP does in fact have a liberal bias to it. Now that the title is changed AGAIN, there is no way to prove it, unless someone took a shapshot of it. So now when someone complains, the AP can just play dumb and say, "What ever are you talking about? The title doesn't say that at all, you must be confusing us with someone else."

              #20.9 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 PM EST
              FDBryant3

              Someone really should try pressing the AP on this (and for that matter other news organizations). I don't really have an opinion on which way the AP slants but I tend to think they change the headlines over time to try and attract more people to the story. Personally I think they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

              • 1 vote
              #20.10 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:38 PM EST
              Scott Isaacs

              Something sinister? Are you guys like the 9-11 Truthers?

              • 2 votes
              #20.11 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:58 PM EST
              Phaedrus72

              Wow, is this turning into a joke or something? The title has changed once again. They call this journalistic integrity?!!!

                #20.12 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:08 PM EST
                Tacitus13

                Phaedrus, I try not to expect too much from article headlines. Whether you have a sensalionist journalist trying to get more ppl to read the article or one that thinks he/she is very witty or punny, the end result is usually misleading. However, it's the content of this article that is dire indeed.

                I'm completely apalled by Kerr's statements but not really surprised. However, I can't trust the Dems to do any better (it's difficult to see how the Dems could do worse although I'm sure they'd find a way).

                • 3 votes
                #20.13 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:13 PM EST
                Phaedrus72

                The problem is that a lot of people get their news exclusively from the headlines and fail to read the article at all. Hence, people like that are going to come away from this article believing that Kerr said to say goodbye to privacy, or that we should expect less privacy. He didn't say that, and I believe that's why the AP writes these misleading headlines, because they know that the headline is what most people remember, if they even read the article at all.

                  #20.14 - Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:39 PM EST
                  LunarTick

                  Something to note about how the AP "wire" feed works is this: An article is initially published to the wire. In the pre-internet days, this meant that a printout of the article was received. As more information became available, updates to the article were published. These were received as additional printouts. So if you were working in a newsroom, you'd now have multiple copies of the same article, with parts revised. The editor in the newsroom would decide to either run the latest article or to create a composite of the various pieces, so long as none of the relevant information was superseded by a later version. It's also not the least bit uncommon for an editor to rewrite the headline to fit the existing space in the layout (hence different versions of different lengths).

                  What you're seeing here is what I attribute to a bug in the way Newsvine pulls their AP feed. Rather than keeping each version of the article as a separate story, Newsvine automatically replaces the story with the most current version. In cases where the article undergoes major rewrites between publishings, you get the effect that Phaedrus is referring to. I personally feel it would be better if Newsvine separated each of these stories into separate pieces.

                  • 4 votes
                  #20.15 - Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:49 PM EST
                  Phaedrus72

                  Very good information, but has the meat of the article changed at all? Do we really need multiple copies of the same article, with just different titles? It seems to me that only the title has changed, the article remains the same.

                    #20.16 - Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:54 PM EST
                    LunarTick

                    There have been articles in the past that have undergone serious rewrites during this process (often the case with breaking news). In this particular case, I've only seen this one version myself. However, it wouldn't surprise me if there are a few paragraphs that have been edited/rewritten for clarity throughout the day. Unless you have the old version still available to compare it to, you probably wouldn't notice much difference. Actually, it would probably be best if Newsvine maintained an "update" log for each story. I think the USAToday site does that to let people know exactly what was changed and when.

                    • 3 votes
                    #20.17 - Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:08 PM EST
                    Wheel

                    Tick,
                    That's good to know. I was not aware of the constant update nature of the ap feed. Thanks

                      #20.18 - Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:43 PM EST
                      Reply
                      More Than Happy

                      I'm going to have to see how practical it'd be to implement PGP on my e-mails. When government and industry get together to decide how much privacy the people are going to get, look out.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#21 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:41 PM EST
                      JoulesBeef

                      our state sold our dl data, despite a law saying they couldnt. i didnt get a penny. the state got in trouble and the "data" returned... but it's data for crist sake.. lets just say they dont need a photo coppier to keep it.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#22 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:44 PM EST
                      TBK

                      The writing has been on the wall for sometime now. I see our government failing us when it comes to the issue of privacy. Millions of unauthorized private cell phone conversations invaded by our government much like the invasion of Iraq.

                      There use to be a time we could monitor the pulse of our government and when something was broken people would hit the streets in protest and problems would get resolved. Now days people hit the send button forwarding some chain letter to some senator or congress person. It doesn't have the same impact.

                      Before we the people loose our rights to privacy, I believe it's going to take citizens protesting all over the country. Demonstrating "against" the Invasion of our Privacy" one of the most important fibers that holds our nation together.

                      • 6 votes
                      Reply#23 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:40 PM EST
                      mcgillert

                      In related news, liberty now means freedom from oppression except for oppression by the US government when convenient.

                      • 5 votes
                      Reply#24 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:05 PM EST
                      MartinEZ

                      The Bush Legacy: He re-wrote the dictionary, one definition at a time.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#25 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:44 PM EST
                      Scott Isaacs

                      I like that, Martin... very succinct and well put but, most importantly, it's true.

                      • 4 votes
                      #25.1 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:12 PM EST
                      MartinEZ

                      Well thank you. I guess there really is no such thing as lying if you don't know what the definition of 'is' is.

                      • 2 votes
                      #25.2 - Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:41 PM EST
                      Reply
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