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WASHINGTON — An already relentless melting of the Arctic greatly accelerated this summer, a warning sign that some scientists worry could mean global warming has passed an ominous tipping point. One even speculated that summer sea ice would be gone in five years.
Greenland's ice sheet melted nearly 19 billion tons more than the previous high mark, and the volume of Arctic sea ice at summer's end was half what it was just four years earlier, according to new NASA satellite data obtained by The Associated Press.
"The Arctic is screaming," said Mark Serreze, senior scientist at the government's snow and ice data center in Boulder, Colo.
Just last year, two top scientists surprised their colleagues by projecting that the Arctic sea ice was melting so rapidly that it could disappear entirely by the summer of 2040.
This week, after reviewing his own new data, NASA climate scientist Jay Zwally said: "At this rate, the Arctic Ocean could be nearly ice-free at the end of summer by 2012, much faster than previous predictions."
So scientists in recent days have been asking themselves these questions: Was the record melt seen all over the Arctic in 2007 a blip amid relentless and steady warming? Or has everything sped up to a new climate cycle that goes beyond the worst case scenarios presented by computer models?
"The Arctic is often cited as the canary in the coal mine for climate warming," said Zwally, who as a teenager hauled coal. "Now as a sign of climate warming, the canary has died. It is time to start getting out of the coal mines."
It is the burning of coal, oil and other fossil fuels that produces carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, responsible for man-made global warming. For the past several days, government diplomats have been debating in Bali, Indonesia, the outlines of a new climate treaty calling for tougher limits on these gases.
What happens in the Arctic has implications for the rest of the world. Faster melting there means eventual sea level rise and more immediate changes in winter weather because of less sea ice.
In the United States, a weakened Arctic blast moving south to collide with moist air from the Gulf of Mexico can mean less rain and snow in some areas, including the drought-stricken Southeast, said Michael MacCracken, a former federal climate scientist who now heads the nonprofit Climate Institute. Some regions, like Colorado, would likely get extra rain or snow.
More than 18 scientists told the AP that they were surprised by the level of ice melt this year.
"I don't pay much attention to one year ... but this year the change is so big, particularly in the Arctic sea ice, that you've got to stop and say, 'What is going on here?' You can't look away from what's happening here," said Waleed Abdalati, NASA's chief of cyrospheric sciences. "This is going to be a watershed year."
2007 shattered records for Arctic melt in the following ways:
— 552 billion tons of ice melted this summer from the Greenland ice sheet, according to preliminary satellite data to be released by NASA Wednesday. That's 15 percent more than the annual average summer melt, beating 2005's record.
— A record amount of surface ice was lost over Greenland this year, 12 percent more than the previous worst year, 2005, according to data the University of Colorado released Monday. That's nearly quadruple the amount that melted just 15 years ago. It's an amount of water that could cover Washington, D.C., a half-mile deep, researchers calculated.
— The surface area of summer sea ice floating in the Arctic Ocean this summer was nearly 23 percent below the previous record. The dwindling sea ice already has affected wildlife, with 6,000 walruses coming ashore in northwest Alaska in October for the first time in recorded history. Another first: the Northwest Passage was open to navigation.
— Still to be released is NASA data showing the remaining Arctic sea ice to be unusually thin, another record. That makes it more likely to melt in future summers. Combining the shrinking area covered by sea ice with the new thinness of the remaining ice, scientists calculate that the overall volume of ice is half of 2004's total.
— Alaska's frozen permafrost is warming, not quite thawing yet. But temperature measurements 66 feet deep in the frozen soil rose nearly four-tenths of a degree from 2006 to 2007, according to measurements from the University of Alaska. While that may not sound like much, "it's very significant," said University of Alaska professor Vladimir Romanovsky.
- Surface temperatures in the Arctic Ocean this summer were the highest in 77 years of record-keeping, with some places 8 degrees Fahrenheit above normal, according to research to be released Wednesday by University of Washington's Michael Steele.
Greenland, in particular, is a significant bellwether. Most of its surface is covered by ice. If it completely melted — something key scientists think would likely take centuries, not decades — it could add more than 22 feet to the world's sea level.
However, for nearly the past 30 years, the data pattern of its ice sheet melt has zigzagged. A bad year, like 2005, would be followed by a couple of lesser years.
According to that pattern, 2007 shouldn't have been a major melt year, but it was, said Konrad Steffen, of the University of Colorado, which gathered the latest data.
"I'm quite concerned," he said. "Now I look at 2008. Will it be even warmer than the past year?"
Other new data, from a NASA satellite, measures ice volume. NASA geophysicist Scott Luthcke, reviewing it and other Greenland numbers, concluded: "We are quite likely entering a new regime."
Melting of sea ice and Greenland's ice sheets also alarms scientists because they become part of a troubling spiral.
White sea ice reflects about 80 percent of the sun's heat off Earth, NASA's Zwally said. When there is no sea ice, about 90 percent of the heat goes into the ocean which then warms everything else up. Warmer oceans then lead to more melting.
"That feedback is the key to why the models predict that the Arctic warming is going to be faster," Zwally said. "It's getting even worse than the models predicted."
NASA scientist James Hansen, the lone-wolf researcher often called the godfather of global warming, on Thursday was to tell scientists and others at the American Geophysical Union scientific in San Francisco that in some ways Earth has hit one of his so-called tipping points, based on Greenland melt data.
"We have passed that and some other tipping points in the way that I will define them," Hansen said in an e-mail. "We have not passed a point of no return. We can still roll things back in time — but it is going to require a quick turn in direction."
Last year, Cecilia Bitz at the University of Washington and Marika Holland at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Colorado startled their colleagues when they predicted an Arctic free of sea ice in just a few decades. Both say they are surprised by the dramatic melt of 2007.
Bitz, unlike others at NASA, believes that "next year we'll be back to normal, but we'll be seeing big anomalies again, occurring more frequently in the future." And that normal, she said, is still a "relentless decline" in ice.
___
On the Net:
National Snow and Ice Data Center on 2007 Arctic sea ice:
http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaiceminimum/20070810_index.html
NASA's "Tipping Points" panel and slide show materials:
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/tipping_points.html
© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
61 Votes- Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
Published to:
- Seth Borenstein's Column, All of Newsvine
- Groups: Climate Change, dolovewalk.org, Global Warming Heretics, Newsvine Science, NYTimes Forums Refugees, rightwingers,
- Regions: Netherlands , United States , Mexico , Indonesia , Greenland , Washington DC
 | Scientist: 'Arctic is screaming' | CNN | Tue Dec 11 | 0 |
| Greenland ice sheet melting at record rate | ENN | Tue Dec 11 | 0 |
| Record heat sweeps Arctic Sea, ice in 2007 | CNET News.com | Thu Dec 13 | 0 |
| Greenland ice melts at record rate, scientists find - Yahoo! News | Yahoo! News | Mon Dec 10 | 0 |
| Arctic surface waters warm 5 C without ice | EurekAlert! | Thu Dec 13 | 1 |
- Public Discussion (94)
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75
14
{"commentId":1260933,"authorDomain":"chill888"}
depressing
{"commentId":1260933,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"chill888"}
- 14 votes
#1 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:12 PM EST{"commentId":1260961,"authorDomain":"spookybf"}
Yup
{"commentId":1260961,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"spookybf"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1260967,"authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
The one voice that we need to hear is nature's.
{"commentId":1260967,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
- 10 votes
{"commentId":1261639,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
Every time I go back to the front page it gives me chills. What a spectacular set of photographs this is. Terrible story but fantastic eye by John McConnico who really deserves special kudos for the images that are perfect.
{"commentId":1261639,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1261913,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
Pamela, dear, I had the pleasure of speaking with two fine young gentlemen on this precise subject matter lost night by the name of Bill and Paul. They were in town from Seattle, WA.
Now, I said in that conversation that I had read somewhere that the Antartic Ice Pack was expanding. Bill said, "Nope, you wrong, Colonel." Hell, I could be wrong, and I'm willing to admit it.
What we need here is some absolute science 1/0 consensus from the all branches and all politics of this question for a consensus answer we can trust then act upon.
Too many opines either way on the Environment and tough to discern the true picture.
Pam, I hope you're up to this Ice Fire Mission. Please let me know if I can help in any way.
Very truly yours,
Colonel Moon
{"commentId":1261913,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
{"commentId":1261920,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
Now, I have read for some proof positive up in Alaska in the NYT that the Permafrost is not what it once was up at Phodhome Bay, and the oil industry understands and is working with conditions on the ground, so to speak.
{"commentId":1261920,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
{"commentId":1262013,"authorDomain":"niteqwill"}
Yes it is. Unfortunately, our children and grandchildren will suffer soon enough.
{"commentId":1262013,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"niteqwill"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1262016,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
fechancellor...I hope you're up to this Ice Fire Mission.
Well, I'm not sure how exactly we got from the images to the permafrost and what it is you think I might be able to do. My primary battle front tends to stick fairly close to the genetically altered foods and a bit of corrupt politics that goes to petrochemicals and pharma that have a hand in the stuff. All my political muckraking is an outgrowth of the alliances that helped us to get where we are in that respect.
Aside from having quite a lot of evidence of attacks on the scientific integrity, within our regulatory agencies, I doubt I'm any better informed than most who just read who's saying what about the climate. I do track where the money goes that pays for views supporting profit objectives though. Not that paid views are always wrong, but my experience with people whose motivation is purely financial is that they tend to find what they set out to.
One more small point unrelated to anything but a personal preference, I don't care for a shortened version of my name; it's not a point anyone could guess but if we're chatting on a regular basis it's something that's appreciated by me when it's all three syllables!
{"commentId":1262016,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1260970,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
No no no, spaceguy will be here shortly to make it all go away with his unqualified confidence surely.
Or is his job done now the tipping points past.
{"commentId":1260970,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 18 votes
#2 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:22 PM EST{"commentId":1261975,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
Dicky Boy, you a smart man but never this quick silver on fact and energy policy evah!
"The Arctic is screaming," said Mark Serreze, senior scientist at the government's snow and ice data center in Boulder, Colo.
The above sounds a lot like an after the fact scream from then DCIA George Tenet runniing around with his "Hair on Fire." Tenet was in on Plame Gate folks, and there is no way that Joe Rogers gets that trip to Africa without Tenet approving it off hand or full knowledge. Fitzgerald, you not much of an investigator for the Close Work in DC. Just last year, two top scientists surprised their colleagues by projecting that the Arctic sea ice was melting so rapidly that it could disappear entirely by the summer of 2040.
The above is like the Hilton Sports Book in Vegas breaking the line with the MOB in NYC or NJ, for example. Science is about hard science and numbers, as in Empirical Data, not opinions racing to get the good press and more money for research. See Edward G. Robinson in that movie about VD cure. Great Flick!
"The Arctic is often cited as the canary in the coal mine for climate warming," said Zwally, who as a teenager hauled coal. "Now as a sign of climate warming, the canary has died. It is time to start getting out of the coal mines."
http://www.actionext.com/names_s/sting_police_lyrics/canary_in_a_coalmine.html
Canary In A Coalmine Lyrics by Sting & Police
First to fall over when the atmosphere
Is less than perfect
Your sensibilities are shaken by the slightest defect
You live you life like a canary in a coalmine
You get so dizzy even walking in a straight line!
Pard, the Canary has a buzz from a bit too much toxic from every quarter of the Earth, yet the Canary is far from dead. THE WASHINGTON POST assures me there is more to come on this story from a wide angle Nikon View.
Now Bill and Paul, I did admit to you that my knowledge of geology was not what it could be..........well I do know this much...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthracite
Anthracite
http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071205/NEWS01/71205155/1001/NEWS
Clean Wyoming Coal to TVA Gallatin Power Plant
MIDDLE TN TOO FAR FROM THE APPYS TO USE EASTERN COAL OF HIGHER SULFER CONTENT.
Now, whoever is flocking up the barge traffic for TVA Wyoming Coal has forced TVA to go back to rail right through downtown Gallia. A coal train is the longest train, so this issue a big problem for Gallitan.
TVA Widows Creek is on the rim of the Cumberlands and Appys, so Eastern Coal can be used there at not Acid rain the mountains and beyond.
Bill and Paul, you boys are out and will garner massive pain, and never think that some with knowledge of the Great TVA cannot access the information we need at anytime on every facet of power generation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
Pumped-storage hydroelectricity (TVA Raccoon Mountain)
Where public power began in the South. Wilson damn was built to supply the WWI and beyond Nitrate Plant at TVA Muscle Shoals and Florence Alabama.
http://www.tva.com/sites/wilson.htm
TVA Wilson Dam
.....and people I've been in more TVA Installations across the board in tres Sensitive areas than almost and TVA Employee can or ever will!
Nothing Wrong with private power, but public power is about National Security too!
ORNL is where it is because of the Clinch River Dam and the massive electrical power coming on line in The Tennessee Valley at that time.
{"commentId":1261975,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1261976,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
Friends, many who come here to seek out Colonel Chancellor do not speak straight and have their own agendas like Bill Gates and Paul Allen. Well, kids, I suggest that this is not the way to approach the Colonel. Second, that kind of interview allows me to keep the deep knowledge on just about any subject in the Meat Locker.
{"commentId":1261976,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
{"commentId":1261996,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
The Medal of Freedom for Tenant was a shut up device from the Bush Admistration, and Tenet was the reason Dicky got to a place he was locked out of in the past, CIA.
George get Dick to pull that MOF out your butt and lick it clean together.
{"commentId":1261996,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
{"commentId":1262024,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
Does this guy think I'm Cheney?
{"commentId":1262024,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1262027,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
fechancellor....and people I've been in more TVA Installations across the board in tres Sensitive areas than almost and TVA Employee can or ever will!
Nothing Wrong with private power, but public power is about National Security too!
ORNL is where it is because of the Clinch River Dam and the massive electrical power coming on line in The Tennessee Valley at that time.
TVA and ORNL are the few public facilities created in the era of the Manhattan project that haven't been sold off and run into the ground. Battelle runs ORNL which makes it a quasi-spook site and a very interesting research facility. Maybe you could do an article about what's happening in Tennessee with all this.
I've only crossed paths with that stuff as it relates to Biohazard materials handling. Battelle manages or co-manages four super-secret government installations. The one in Dugway, Utah stockpiles and produces weaponized anthrax though I wonder about ORNL. We have oodles of folks here who'd be thrilled to have a discussion of Battelle and ORNL and any insights into the power plays there. Yes, the pun was intended!
{"commentId":1262027,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1262046,"authorDomain":"chill888"}
Does this guy think I'm Cheney?
Perhaps, maybe we should just invade the arctic and show those icebergs who's boss
{"commentId":1262046,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"chill888"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1262106,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
Perhaps, maybe we should just invade the arctic and show those icebergs who's boss
We could try sanctions and just freeze their assets!
{"commentId":1262106,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1263053,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
You know, It's difficult to fathom and I'll probably lose a lot of friends and it's certainly a new and strange feeling, but I kinda Like being Cheney.
{"commentId":1263053,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1264100,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
We'd have to remove your heart, replace your wit with a shotgun, but other than that only miles from a match.
{"commentId":1264100,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1260997,"authorDomain":"replytoj001"}
It was on the news earlier today that both the Polar Ice caps have actually increased in size.
To me, this is why the "Global Warming" debate has less and less fact and more and more fiction and continues to be a confusing subject that a persons belief's really are open to where they, or what they believe in the debate.
Is something happening to our planet?
I think so. The question is (to me) what is really happening, and what, if anything, is causing what is happening.
Is this a natural cycle of the planet.....less than 2 degrees over the last 200 years? After all the North American Continent was covered in ice millions of years ago and now they are not........so the glaciers had to melt........right?
replytoj001
http://replytoj001.newsvine.com
{"commentId":1260997,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"replytoj001"}
- 3 votes
#3 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:38 PM EST{"commentId":1261005,"authorDomain":"douglasq"}
Been watching Fox News again?
{"commentId":1261005,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"douglasq"}
- 8 votes
{"commentId":1261030,"authorDomain":"spookybf"}
replytoj001, where did you see that? I did a light search but couldn't find it.
{"commentId":1261030,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"spookybf"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1261050,"authorDomain":"super-structure"}
Spooky: Try here. It's certainly a better citation than "it was on the news earlier today." Also, see item no. 15 of a related article I wrote last year (with references).
{"commentId":1261050,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"super-structure"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1261061,"authorDomain":"rbrazys"}
Lets see if I can explain more clearly Replytoj001, The north pole is iced over again for the winter yes, but they measure the ice sheets during the summer to see how much they decrease. 2005 was a record low for the amount of ice that remained in the arctic during the summer. Speculation was that though this was a new low, there have been times of extreme decline in ice and it has rebounded in the following years. Now in 2007, it reached another new all time (since we began tracking in 1979) low exceeding all prediction models stating that the ice caps are melting.
That means that it's summer in the southern hemisphere, so once the seasons change again you'll see the measurements of how much of the ice in Antarctica remains at the height of summer down there. And sometime between now and then you'll see reports stating that in some areas ice has remained but overall Antarctica has lost billions of tons of ice that has broken off glaciers and floated away.
So yes, the climate is changing and the planet is warming, yes, green house gases contribute to this; and yes some of it is natural. The concern is that with our addition to the natural cycle by pumping billions of tons of green house gases into the atmosphere, we are creating uncharted never before seen changes in weather patterns and climate patterns, of which we don't know the outcome, but it doesn't look good.
Hope this helps.
Spooky: here is a link to a blog that mentions this (not todays news though)
Atomz (link pops in new window)
{"commentId":1261061,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"rbrazys"}
- 12 votes
{"commentId":1261744,"authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
All in all if you live in low lying areas you might develop a 10 year plan to move to higher ground? Well that's my plan.
{"commentId":1261744,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"caroleroach"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1261041,"authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
Would those "world renowned" "scientists" such as the non-degreed former head of The Weather Channel care to revise those estimates?
You'll only hear the anti-crowd come out when there's a political goal that they have in mind. So calculated and predictable.
{"commentId":1261041,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
- 4 votes
#4 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:05 PM EST{"commentId":1261101,"authorDomain":"thatfloridagirl"}
Here is a link to another viewpoint. The experts list is interesting. Some of them seem to have solid credentials and some definitely do not. It becomes very difficult to discern the full picture when you can't ask specific questions of the writers.
{"commentId":1261101,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"thatfloridagirl"}
#5 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:36 PM EST{"commentId":1261117,"authorDomain":"thatfloridagirl"}
OK, I didn't see the thing about no links......try google on ice cover Northern Hemisphere.....then find the one from icecaps
{"commentId":1261117,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"thatfloridagirl"}
#6 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:43 PM EST{"commentId":1264890,"authorDomain":"fdbryant3"}
{"commentId":1268193,"authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
I believe this is what you were referring to.
ICECAP. Brought to you my Exxon-Mobil and General Motors shills.
{"commentId":1268193,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1261168,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
I will grant that the earth's temperature is rising. I will grant human CO2 emission is up 30 percent in the last 100 years. I will grant we've seen a 1 degree increase in the last 100 years but so what? I would respectfully suggest you take a listen to today's edition of my podcast. If I'm missing something, I'm open to it.
{"commentId":1261168,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 6 votes
#7 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:01 PM EST
Comment collapsed by the community{"commentId":1261341,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
I appreciate your analysis.
1% means nothing when they undergo 20% every night when the sun sets.
Explain why the above statement is wrong. More to the point, explain the change to plants a 1% rise would have...
{"commentId":1261341,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261406,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
Here's the source of 3% claim.
http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
Via data from Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, IEA Greenhouse Gas R&D Programme, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, and others.
Man is responsible for 3.22% of CO2, 18.33% of methane, 4.39% of N2O.
{"commentId":1261406,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1261480,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
I'm not refuting your 3%, I only mentioned it as part of your set up to the, 'how plants can survive overnight therefor can survive longterm variations without effect.'
You actually want me to spell out to you how short term variation ie 24 hour cycles are easier for plants to work with than differentials that span centuries.
Is that really what you're asking of me?
Let me put it in terms you might understand, if someone were to hit you over the head with a baseball bat every evening about sundown you would probably survive but if someone were to hit you over the head continually you would in all likelihood not.
It wouldn't spell the end of humanity, people would still probablyy manage podcasts where they opinioned that because there were still humans then hitting them with bats continually was not bad for them, but that would be spectacularily stupid. Again, good luck with finding an audience.
{"commentId":1261480,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1261531,"authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
Would they still manage to schill their podcasts via a Newsvine comment? Because I'm guessing that this virtual baseball-bat clubbing is going to do its job. At least, I'm hoping.
{"commentId":1261531,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1261580,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
I do need you (or am still waiting for you) to point it out ... statistically how a gradual increase of 1% once over 100 years is more detrimental than (about) a 20% fluctuation 73,000 times over the same time period. After all, there's a difference between 20% and 1%; just as there's a difference between a single gradual increases and 100 years worth of immediate, sharp increases. You baseball bat analogy suggests no variance of degree.
This particular aspect of my comments are not based in science, nor could you point to refuting science (if I'm wrong on that please correct me, I'd be very interested to see it). It was an observation of common sense of mine that you latched onto... which is fine. But I wonder, amid all the natural temperature fluctuation between night and day alone, how it's possible for plants to not flourish in a climate which would gradually become warmer (the optimal conditions for plants anyway).
{"commentId":1261580,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261595,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
And I'm very sorry for Viki's ailment which apparently requires her to click on everything she sees. I'll be more sensitive to such inhibitions in the future.
For those not so tragically afflicted, it was on topic and I'd already said it (why say it again). If you don't want to listen, I would suggest not clicking.
Except for Viki, who has to.... and I'm sorry to hear that.
{"commentId":1261595,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261631,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
I'm willing to be convinced away from my position on this, and every issue. I'm aware of consensus only on the aforementioned...
I will grant that the earth's temperature is rising. I will grant human CO2 emission is up 30 percent in the last 100 years. I will grant we've seen a 1 degree increase in the last 100 years
But again I ask, so what? And I don't mean comparisons to athletic accessories, I mean really... so what?
{"commentId":1261631,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261635,"authorDomain":"framed"}
I do need you (or am still waiting for you) to point it out ... statistically how a gradual increase of 1% once over 100 years is more detrimental than (about) a 20% fluctuation 73,000 times over the same time period.
No one claims that plants will directly suffer from 1 degree temperature change, so the comparison is irrelevant. Ice on the other hand, at the transition between 0 and 1 deg C will suffer greatly. Since there's always a point between the equator and the north/south poles that is at that transition point, increasing the temperature pushes the ice line closer to the poles reducing the net amount of ice on the planet at any given time. Less ice = more water = sea level rise = uncomfortably large percentages of the population displaced.
In case it wasn't sufficiently clear: A bunch of things melting and then freezing on different cycles (since not all the earth is lit by the sun at the same time) is far less detrimental than everything steadily melting and never refreezing.
{"commentId":1261635,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"framed"}
- 7 votes
{"commentId":1261657,"authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
No problems, Scott. No ailment here. I didn't bother to click.
{"commentId":1261657,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1261664,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
There are those who claim plants would suffer from such a change.
http://www.britishecologicalsociety.org/articles/education/resources/curriculum/ecologyposter/rareplants/ http://www.phschool.com/science/planetdiary/archive04/atmo1011704.html
Those are just the first two in a google search.
That doesn't matter, as you correctly point out (but it does take away from tangible areas of the debate)
Your ice point is a good one. I'll look into it. Could you point me to a quick source to look over. Thanks for actually engaging in useful conversation!
{"commentId":1261664,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261668,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
Good to hear Viki. But what an ailment that would be in today's internet.
{"commentId":1261668,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261676,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
This is great! You are perplexed that on a planet that spins around the sun as well as spinning on it's own axis such that there is daytime and night-time every 24 hours, on which vegetation has evolved, [I hope you're prepared to go along with this because otherwise we have no basis by which to base any hypothesis on which we can both agree] to process sunlight via photosynthesis and reproducing via a variety of means, wind, insect, fruit, bird both in pollination and seed dispersal, that the mechanisms utilised over a 24 hour cycle to survive temperature variations over a century can be directly compared to an overall change in temp over the same century.
That's your question yes?
The answer is that the differences are not equal.
Plants deal with variation wonderfully, eventually. Ecosystems are overall fairly robust but it doesn't follow that they are unbreakable.
Small variations have flow on effects, this small variation in temp in some places is the difference between water being frozen or liquid, in others the difference between mating seasons coinciding with feeding grounds availability, ie penguins.
Whatever I point out will underline that merely playing games with statistics in the presumption that they are all equal is to render reality so two dimensional such that to every development you can retort, "so what" and juggle unrelated numbers as to appear informed to people willing to be convinced of your obviously political motives.
So you are comparing things that are not equitable, that is your answer.
I'll leave the, "but if things are getting warmer is that not good for the plants?" fork in your quest for truth to someone who has more experience and patience than I.
{"commentId":1261676,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1261778,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
If man is only responsible for 3.22% of the CO2, why are we creating such a complex setup to reduce it?
{"commentId":1261778,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1261779,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
The debate is not whether these small changes are taking place, or have an effect on the planet. They are and they do. I think, in spite of your fixation on 15 seconds of observation in a 30 minute show, we can agree that plants will be little effected (generally) compared to other aspects of the planet (ie... what 'framed' pointed out regarding ice flow).
To whatever degree I'm not informed (I will confess again I'm not...nor do I want to be... a scientist or even an expert on this subject), I would say: rather than approach my views with a commonality we share (I'm sure if we tried we'd find one), you chose to focus on one of the least important consequences of global warming, and a passing thought in my overall presentation.
As for my political motives, I don't have any. I DO have an ideology and a set of beliefs and I don't try to hide either, and both are flexible. I don't win anything or profit anything if I change your mind on global warming, or part of it. It's what I think about the issue. The thread was about global warming. I had a pre-posted view as you had a pre-thought view. Both are equally viable in my mind, and having either doesn't by itself disqualify someone from having an opinion.
I appreciate good sarcasm as much as anyone (seriously, I do.. it's why I'm still typing here on this post), but my having an opinion does not disqualify it. I outlined my reasons for what I believe in the podcast, and not one of them was 'because I'm a republican.'
{"commentId":1261779,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261791,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
Dr. Know -
It's my partisan opinion this is because it's not about the small increase in temperature, it's about the few gaining control over the many.
But that's just me, and I have a feeling I'm outnumbered.
{"commentId":1261791,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1262050,"authorDomain":"JoulesBeef"}
I think you problem is your are thinking of a temperature global average in local terms.
DO you think that if you were doing an activity that raised your body temp by one degree and threatened to further raise your body temp in the future if you dont stop.. that you shouldnt do anything about it?? after all youve survived fevers before huh? It's a closed and delicately balanced system. You simply cant throw junk constantly into a closed system and be surprised when junk comes out.
Letting teh tub drip?? so what each drip is less than a 1/100 of an oz.. but plug the drain and make a closed system and you have a full tub over night.
Plants are already being effected by the change.. some plants need their seeds to be frozen for a certain length of time before they will hatch.. other plants depend on snow run off that wont be there any more. Then their are the movement of insects which help in pollination that definately change with temperature.
Will the earth survive, humans too, most likely, but it will be more expensive to do nothing than to prevent it from getting woirse.
{"commentId":1262050,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"JoulesBeef"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1264085,"authorDomain":"framed"}
It's my partisan opinion this is because it's not about the small increase in temperature, it's about the few gaining control over the many.
I'm not a big conspiracy theory guy personally. Faking the IPCC reports, with literally hundreds of scientists around the globe in on the game, would be a monumental feat.
To be honest the whole issue is so complicated I don't think you can just boil it down to something that could be resolved in this forum. The armchair science (my own post of it not withstanding) doesn't really cut it. The climate is complex, the computer models are enormous, the data required to run them is hard to even imagine in size. Given that, unless you want to dedicate your life to the problem, you need to trust someone to do that for you.
In my case, I trust the IPCC. These are the guys with all the satellite data, environmental readings, supercomputer time, climate models and advanced ecology related degrees. If those guys are saying "we're 90% sure this is happening, and were 90% sure its a bad thing" ( and they are) , how can I reasonably disagree without going to the same level of analysis that they have? It doesn't mean they're guaranteed to be right, but as a layperson they appear to be in the best position to come up with the correct answer, and therefore the best people to trust. Politicians on the other hand are not so great to trust, and certainly not climate experts. =]
{"commentId":1264085,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"framed"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1270712,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
I waded through your attempt at media just for the comedy value of discerning how dumb you thought your audience had to be to swallow you.
Well, he doesn't have the winsomecowboy talent of sitting behind a keyboard coming up with snide and condescending comments to try to make people feel stupid. You have talent. There is a public school board somewhere looking to hire you. Good work.
Because I'm guessing that this virtual baseball-bat clubbing is going to do its job.
That's a pretty classy way to welcome someone to the Vine, Viki. Did I say classy? I meant classless. My bad. You're better than that.
A bunch of things melting and then freezing on different cycles (since not all the earth is lit by the sun at the same time) is far less detrimental than everything steadily melting and never refreezing.
Some ice melts, some ice gets thicker. AS it turns out, the Greenland ice streams seem to be caused by a freaking volcano under the ice. Did global warming cause that too?
If man is only responsible for 3.22% of the CO2, why are we creating such a complex setup to reduce it?
Because it gives the socialists in the United Nations a reason to set up global taxes, exert more control over the First World countries and level the playing field for non-capitalist states so they don't have to change from socialism. That's why.
Scott, good work here. Thanks for hanging in here even though the Newsvine Leftist Welcoming Committee made you feel so at home.
{"commentId":1270712,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1270722,"authorDomain":"daweb"}
Scott, I welcome you as a sane voice amongst all the noise we hear from the GWaR crowd. (Global Warming as Religion). I appreciate hearing your voice and agree with your assessment. I think you are correct about this being more about a few wanting control over many.
Keep up the good fight, say what you think and examine the facts not the hype!
Welcome to the vine!
{"commentId":1270722,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"daweb"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1270725,"authorDomain":"daweb"}
I waded through your attempt at media just for the comedy value of discerning how dumb you thought your audience had to be to swallow you.
Once again Winsome Cowboy blatently violates the CoH here and attacks a new user merely because he disagrees with him. Nice.
{"commentId":1270725,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"daweb"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1270828,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
snide, condescending, classless, socialists, global warming as religion
Yep, when rational fails, dip into the cliche fund. You collect enough of them you can simulate an online personality and political foundation as a conservative cheerleader.
You don't argue the point guys,you argue the person,you play the man not the ball. You may or not notice you cute as a button political little league rightwing sandpit dwellers, but I play both and if you were capable of raising your game you might be able to avoid not only having your lack of argument in favor of sophomoric oversold overconfidence amplified. Sort of leaves you hanging out there like Piñatas full of ripe pus. Oh well, after you've wiped yourselves off I guess you'll go back to trying to bully those who are incapable of separating low level rhetorical aggression for cognisant argument.
Or more likely you'll cling to each other in pseudo persecuted brotherhood, quite ignoring the fact that people attack you because you have snitty little unfounded superiority complexes that are as asinine and unfounded as your silly little collection of collective insults [global warming as religion, was that a group effort or did that appear to one of you in a dream?] a few wanting control over many
wow that's deep, meaningless but simulates profundity, can be applied to anything, it's a one size fits all profundity and shows just how little you have to work with in my opinion.
I'm happy you have each other and your superior 'man against the world' persecution complexes to bind you. Have a group hug on me. pretend your not bruised by your own transparent overconfidence, find other powerless cogs intimidated by the worlds complexity and together you can make your cartoon a reality.
{"commentId":1270828,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1270858,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
You may or not notice you cute as a button political little league rightwing sandpit dwellers
It's tough to notice a point through all your holier than thou self stroking. Maybe if you spent a little more time making a point and a little less time trying to make yourself feel superior to those around you, I might notice. Instead, I hear: "Blah, blah blah, I'm so smart, blah, blah, blah, You're so dumb, blah, blah, blah, Look how cool I am, blah, blah, blah, (you all really do like me though, right?) blah, blah, blah, I'm compensating for my insecurities right now by talking down to you, blah, blah,blah."
Grow up.
{"commentId":1270858,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1270891,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
You may or not notice you cute as a button political little league rightwing sandpit dwellers, but I play both and if you were capable of raising your game you might be able to avoid not only having your lack of argument in favor of sophomoric oversold overconfidence amplified.
I'm still waiting for you to successfully refute any of the points I made in Tuesday's half-hour show.
The fact is you can't refute any more than I can prove. If that's all the science there is, fine. If that's the case, doesn't it make sense to not dramatically mandate a change a nation's way of life, then?
{"commentId":1270891,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1270893,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
It's tough to notice a point
I'm not saying it's easy to think Bodhi1, I'm just saying that pained responses like 'grow up' are as intellectually barren as O'Reillys "shut up'
I'm sorry if you think I make you look stupid but I'm simply not prepared to take that responsibility.
as to DAWeb's attempt to make the statement I waded through your attempt at media just for the comedy value of discerning how dumb you thought your audience had to be to swallow you. into a blatently violates the CoH issue.
Good luck, could even work,
'attacks because he disagrees with'
Mr 'Global warming as religion' whats that large wart on your point, oh it's your hypocracy!
I don't have to be that smart I just have to be smarter than you. How am I doing?
{"commentId":1270893,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1270900,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
scott, see #7.13
I've given you all the attention your simplistic statistical non relationship deserves in my opinion, you can thrash it out with someone else.
no better yet, you show any corrallation between impacts of temperature differentials over 24 cvcles and long term temp changes other than you saying their should be and we'll talk.
{"commentId":1270900,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1270971,"authorDomain":"TPM"}
I've given you all the attention your simplistic statistical non relationship deserves
You've given it MORE than enough attention. As I've said three times now, what you cherry picked from the podcast was NOT based in science, and was no more an argument I made than a passing thought I had while filling a half hour of audio so apparently atrocious that you managed to sit through half the thing before finding something to bring back to me (?) It was based in my head. I didn't tout it or forlong it, you did.
Perhaps if we focused on the more pressing aspects of the issue...
{"commentId":1270971,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"TPM"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1270982,"authorDomain":"daweb"}
Whinesome, you are a blowhard. You make a lot of noise and say exactly nothing. You claim to refute points you have not even begun to understand. you would rather craft flowery insults then engage in any level of discussion. I continue to wonder just why you waste the space here on the vine.
{"commentId":1270982,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"daweb"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1271102,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
I'm sorry if you think I make you look stupid but I'm simply not prepared to take that responsibility.
Nice try. Not what I said.
As per the norm, you spend your efforts in trying to attack the person and not discuss the premise. The power used to create your textual self-aggrandizing is contributing to the fight against global warming. The only good part is it minimizes the actual hot air coming out of your mouth.
{"commentId":1271102,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1271657,"authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
Whinesome, you are a blowhard. You make a lot of noise and say exactly nothing. You claim to refute points you have not even begun to understand. you would rather craft flowery insults then engage in any level of discussion. I continue to wonder just why you waste the space here on the vine.
My goodness, DAWeb, the kind of stuff that you'd delete from your threads in a nanosecond.
If it didn't support your point.
{"commentId":1271657,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1271728,"authorDomain":"daweb"}
Yes it is. you are correct and I should not have posted it. of course take a look at the very first response to Scott Fuller by Winsome. It is no excuse but it is the reason.
{"commentId":1271728,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"daweb"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1272524,"authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
That's a pretty classy way to welcome someone to the Vine, Viki. Did I say classy? I meant classless. My bad. You're better than that.
Yeah, probably. On good days, anyway.
I apologize.
{"commentId":1272524,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1272990,"authorDomain":"theottoshow"}
Hey Scott - welcome to Newsvine. You can decide for yourself if this welcome you received from a couple of esteemed Viners is the peak or the valley for what to expect on Newsvine in the form of intellect, maturity and fairness.
Of course, it cold be that they already know you and have decided you are a target that needs to be marginalized. It couldn't be because that is the level of their courtesy...or that they feel that threatened by you because of a few words and questions seeking a discussion. Or maybe it could.
Funny, I expect the newcomers to be the one's who go on the assault without regards for the community, not the veterans.
{"commentId":1272990,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"theottoshow"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1261209,"authorDomain":"simon-says"}
And USA still continues to sit on their fat ass and do nothing.
{"commentId":1261209,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"simon-says"}
- 3 votes
#8 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:21 PM EST{"commentId":1261215,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
Hell no, it takes effort to deny the obvious
{"commentId":1261215,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 8 votes
{"commentId":1261761,"authorDomain":"affinity"}
And Bush has bought land in Northern Paraguay. Somehow I don't think its for the scenery
{"commentId":1261761,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"affinity"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1261780,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
aquifer
{"commentId":1261780,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1270760,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
You guys are right. We should do something before Antarctica gets any colder or the ice sheet grows any more! Wait...what?
The additional snowfall is enough to account for 45 billion tons of water added to the ice sheet every year, just about equal to the amount of water flowing annually into the ocean from the melting Greenland icecap, the scientists reported in research published online Thursday by the journal Science.
And we just sit on our fat asses while Antarctica grows colder.
{"commentId":1270760,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1261249,"authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
We are heading into the unknown for sure. No one can say what will happen, or when.
{"commentId":1261249,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
- 2 votes
#9 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:40 PM EST{"commentId":1261261,"authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
OMG!!!! We're all GONNA DIEEEEEE!!!!!
Sorry. Just had to say it.
The photos are awful pretty.
{"commentId":1261261,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"vikibabbles"}
- 7 votes
#10 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:44 PM EST{"commentId":1261273,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}
Something I thought of today at work (I work in a water related / turf related industry) was that perhaps the planet is keeping a balance within itself. 5 years ago here in Middle Georgia if a construction company were to dig 5 ft down, they'd hit some sort of water, be it moist soil or a small pool. Today this isn't the case. According to agricultural plans I was looking at, the dig I was on should have yielded moist soil at a minimum. However, it was powder - dry powder. It's caused a little bit of worry around here because it's becoming common to have water tables much lower than indicated.
Right now, a lot of counties in GA are under heavy water restrictions to conserve water. Typically a residential well is drilled to about 300 feet. Irrigation wells (industrial) wells are 400 or more but the residential wells are drying up. There have been however, sharp increases in population here in Middle Ga which means more water use. Couple this with residential irrigation systems a staple with a new home and the water use increases. Add to THAT, the fact that the average homeowner seriously over waters their yard and the water use increases still.
If this ecological change is happening with water levels dropping in GA, then it's fairly safe to assume that it may also be happening in other parts of the US. If it happens in the US, then it may also be happening in various parts of the globe.
What I'm getting at is that the ice caps melting (and it's just a hair-brained theory) could be the planets way of replenishing the water that is being used up. I'm sure that hundreds of years ago the planet could provide water faster, or at least as fast as we could use it. Over time, the global population has significantly increased and with it the demand for water.
I'm not saying that 'global environmental destabilization' (which is what it really is) is false, nor that alarm is unnecessary, but rather that perhaps there is a reason other than "warming" or that the warming is what has to happen to replace the water that's missing.
{"commentId":1261273,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"ejronin"}
- 1 vote
#11 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:49 PM EST{"commentId":1261299,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
Hm, I don't know. The water isn't "used up," it's displaced somewhere else. You would also need an explanation for why ground water loss, even on a very wide scale, would affect Arctic ice at all.
{"commentId":1261299,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1261281,"authorDomain":"npat"}
Local meteorologists in Minnesota continue to confuse the public by their hyping a colder than average start to this month and by their downplaying and/or silence on global warming.
{"commentId":1261281,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"npat"}
- 1 vote
#12 - Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:54 PM EST{"commentId":1261294,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}
Ohio already got an ass-pile of snow this year... of course here in GA, it's a sunny 78.
{"commentId":1261294,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"ejronin"}
{"commentId":1261990,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
Here's another old customer of mine on The "Tennessee Stud" Team from Cleveland, TN, please make welcome one of the industry leaders....
Life Care Centers of America
....and a shout out to Democratic Party gal and smarty lawyer of good works-- gal pal Pat Best Vital. Keep Greg straight, Pat. :)
{"commentId":1261990,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
#13 - Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:48 AM EST{"commentId":1262029,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
Here's my environment and manly man tip of the day....
Chunk them smell good body washes and save on oil for packaging and more and step up to an understated lady killer like...
Herrera for Men by Caroline Herrera!
Put it on after out of a recylable glass bottle, and that bottle is much more compact.
Common Sense on the environment as leaders in this area Nippon executes is painless and smells a lot better than not.
{"commentId":1262029,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
#14 - Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:36 AM EST{"commentId":1262033,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
http://www.fragrancex.com/products/_bid_Carolina--Herrera-am-lid_C__brands.html
Caroline Herrera Brands
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Caroline Herrera Hottie Pic!
New York, France and Venezuala this all I got for all of you until you get on the Indian Raj situation with us.
Yours very truly--Caroline,
Colonel F. E. Chancellor Moon
{"commentId":1262033,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
{"commentId":1262030,"authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
....and let's explore agin the seperation process at the garbage dump......see Ron Littlefield, Mayor of Chattanooga, for some advise on that subject, if he still remembers, and I bet he does.
{"commentId":1262030,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fechancellor"}
#15 - Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:38 AM EST{"commentId":1265241,"authorDomain":"simon-says"}
Stop the Climate-Wrecking at Bali
Climate negotiations in Bali are in crisis. Things were looking good till now: near-consensus on a delicate deal, including 2020 targets for rich countries, in return for which China and the developing world would do their part over time. IPCC scientists have said such targets are needed to prevent catastrophe. But Japan, the US and Canada are banding together to wreck the deal, and the rest of the world is starting to waver...
We can't let three stubborn governments throw away the planet's future. We have until the end of Friday to do everything we can. Please sign our emergency global petition below -- we'll deliver it through stunts at the summit, a full-page ad in the Jakarta Post in Asia, and directly to country delegates to stiffen their nerve against any bad compromise. Add your name to the campaign below now!
"We call urgently for the US, Canada and Japan to stop blocking serious 2020 targets for emissions reductions, and for the rest of the world to refuse to accept anything less."
{"commentId":1265241,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"simon-says"}
- 3 votes
#16 - Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:17 AM EST{"commentId":1265268,"authorDomain":"replytoj001"}
To all,
Wonderful debate and discussion
As I read these thread lines and posts, I am more convinced that we really cannot come to a consensus on the Global Warming debate.
There are those on one end who believe all is lost and those on the other end that believe nothing is happening, and there are those in the middle who move between both points.
There is no real consensus; lots of facts and figures and some name calling, but again, n real consensus.
The debate continues........
{"commentId":1265268,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"replytoj001"}
- 2 votes
#17 - Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:56 AM EST{"commentId":1267644,"authorDomain":"chumsuet"}
We might not have a consensus as to what is causing it but surely we all agree something is happening to cause our climate to warm up and change?
{"commentId":1267644,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"chumsuet"}
- 1 vote
#18 - Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:27 PM EST{"commentId":1267730,"authorDomain":"fdbryant3"}
I think it is more accurate to say we agree the climate is changing. Whether that change is natural or being accelerated by man is in contention.
{"commentId":1267730,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"fdbryant3"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1267871,"authorDomain":"simon-says"}
Scientific consensus is represented in the IPCC Third Assessment Report, Working Group 1 (TAR WG1) and the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (AR4).
Just ignorant criminals ignore the overwhelming global scientific consensus about man-made climate change.
{"commentId":1267871,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"simon-says"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1270767,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
The UN is looking to level the playing field with its hype on AGW. It isn't really concerned with being scientific. It just wants the power to tax.
{"commentId":1270767,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1271665,"authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
Hmm, note that the anti- set had not a shred of refuting the science.
Hot air from them as usual, dare I say it.
The "greed is good" set try to have their day again.
{"commentId":1271665,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
#19 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:36 PM EST{"commentId":1271881,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
Some ice melts, some ice gets thicker. AS it turns out, the Greenland ice streams seem to be caused by a freaking volcano under the ice. Did global warming cause that too?
And before you ask for it, here's the link.
{"commentId":1271881,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1273737,"authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
Bodhi1,
From your link:
They have found at least one "hotspot" in the northeast corner of Greenland -- just below a site where an ice stream was recently discovered.
One hot spot. In the Northeast. That really explains why the whole doggone icecap is turning into slush.
But you've done a great job of propaganda. Plausible denial will enter people's heads like smoke at a cookout. Congratulations - touch base with your friendly Exxon/Mobil contact for those free fillup coupons.
{"commentId":1273737,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"partisanhack"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1274266,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
"Crustal heat flow is still one of the unknowns -- and it's a fairly significant one, according to our preliminary results."
Yeah, this statement makes it seem like it's nothing, something isolated to a corner of Greenland. I'm sure you know more about the ice sheets than the people studying it.
That really explains why the whole doggone icecap is turning into slush.
Turning to slush, eh?
Exaggeration is a blood relation to falsehood and nearly as blamable.
{"commentId":1274266,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1273049,"authorDomain":"chumsuet"}
Nice to see the USA were finally forced to climb down and agree to setting targets to reduce the impact of Global Warming at the conference in Bali yesterday - it's about time!
{"commentId":1273049,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"chumsuet"}
#20 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:19 PM EST{"commentId":1273140,"authorDomain":"simon-says"}
The Bali meeting was a total failure... USA, Canada, Japan and Australia wrecked it.
{"commentId":1273140,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"simon-says"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1273671,"authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
USA, Canada, Japan and Australia wrecked it.
Good.
{"commentId":1273671,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"PurelyPolitical"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":1273151,"authorDomain":"chumsuet"}
I stand corrected! - why do you believe it was a total failure?
{"commentId":1273151,"threadId":"187921","contentId":"1156871","authorDomain":"chumsuet"}
#21 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:56 PM EST{"commentId":10404870,"authorDomain":"breelaboy"}
{"commentId":10425809,"authorDomain":"brianalampton"}
{"canLink":false,"threadId":"187921","isPrivate":false}
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