Venezuela Troops Head to Colombia Border

Not just Bush, but the US policy establishment would love to drag Chavez and Correa down the path it is already trying to pull Morales by supporting secessionist elites in Bolivia. The US would rather see Chavez spend his newfound oil wealth on a costly war of attrition with the well-armed Colombians (the #1 recipient of US military aid) than for him to continue to formulate alternative models of development, furthering regional integration (at the expense of the US), and freeing the region from its long dependence on US-centric institutions such as the IMF and World Bank.

I'm sorry, awake, could you clarify what you mean?

Just get sick of the way some of the more partisan types immediately see aggressive military action by a cult authoritarian leader as unequivocally the U.S' fault.

You are talking about Uribe, correct?

Just get sick of the way some of the more partisan types immediately see aggressive military action by a cult authoritarian leader as unequivocally the U.S' fault.

I'm with you...

Would it be too damn much to ask if we sit this one out and let Columbia, Venezuela and Ecuador sort out their own problems?

Preferably by annihilating each other.

Luckydog

Not as long as Columbia is a US client state no I don't believe 'we' can simply pretend that the US isn't already hip deep in South American blood.

Matt
annihilation ...there's an idea, maybe they should contact the worlds largest arms dealer for the tools, Oh I'm sorry, it looks like they already have.

[Take a close look at your bank account over the coming months if you want a first hand experience of annihilation]

Would it be too damn much to ask if we sit this one out and let Columbia, Venezuela and Ecuador sort out their own problems?

This is precisely what should be done. Arms sales to Colombia should be cut off immediately, as should the threatening rhetoric toward Venezuela. The US should accept that it has no right to determine what system of government others are to live under, or what the character of their societies should be.

But we can also interpret your remark in a different context. Accepting that the US is selling arms to Colombia, and isn't going to stop, the US is "sitting this one out" in a different sense, by refusing to lend rhetorical support to Colombian aggression. In the article above, notice how the US diplomat is very careful not to say specifically that the US leant Colombia any kind of support. The Colombians tried to thank the US for its assistance in providing it with satellite information, to which the US Reprsentative for Southern Command said ""We do provide intelligence support to partner nations but I can't get into details on operations." This means that the Colombians will most likely not pursue this course any further, and will likely stand down.

The US should accept that it has no right to determine what system of government others are to live under, or what the character of their societies should be.

Not in reference to any current events, but just in general...Does this include a system of government that encourages and even commits things like genocide? That seems a bit of a bold blanket statement to be making. Do we not have a moral obligation to help those who suffer at the hands of a powerful government, or would that just be 'interfering' in other's business?

Neteng:

This is a good question. Indeed, if a government commits a genocide, or any other crime for that manner, the proper way to handle it is through international legal institutions. These institutions, in line with common concepts of jurisprudence, can impose or authorize a number of coercive measures to "punish" governments for their crimes. Leaders can be arrested and tried, sanctions can be imposed, etc. At the most extreme end (under the law), if none of these measures are successful, international legal institutions (in this case the UN Security Council) can authorize the use of force, limiting its scope to the task at hand. So, to use your example of a genocide, and assuming all the other recourses I mentioned have been exhausted, the use of force could be authorized to the extent required to arrest those responsible and bring them to trial. Of course, during the course of the armed intervention, international humanitarian law governs the conduct of the forces and how the action must be carried out.

So, it is not the US who has the right to decide what form of government people are to live under, as I mentioned, just as it is not up to individual police officers to unilaterally determine what should and should not be a crime. Rather, the rule of law determines legal courses of action for states as for individuals. Those who violate it are brought to justice to pay for their crimes.

your question is not a question but a cheap smear that says more about the shallowness of your perceptions than any mythical 'liberal' bravery or lack of it.

define 'liberals'

I could just as easily [and stupidly] ask "Why is it that conservatives cannot think for themselves and need a father figure to steer them presumably because they were intellectually retarded somewhere in their early teens when they found thinking for themselves painful and presumably had their Dad step in and haul them out of whatever trouble they had got themselves into. Additionally is that why they stream into the military like obedient thoughtless puppies needing only firm direction to complete them?

To add, when was the last time the military actually defended your country and not 'defended' it by attacking another?

why do liberals seem to complain all of the time, when was the last you guys defended your country by joining the military?

1984-1988 US ARMY
1990-1996 US COAST GUARD

And if you didn't you shouldn't be asking these kind of questions!

Here, here...

We should try to formulate intellectual arguments and not rely on platitudes. Philip, I presume you are not in Iraq right now either...

I last joined the military in 1964 and served on active duty until 1968 when I went into the reserve. I defend my country every day, how about you Philip? Are you really so foolish as to believe that only the right serves in the military or are you putting us on?

Venezuela and Ecuador have been very high profile about starting a process of peace and negotiations in good faith between FARC and the Colombian state. In tandem with this, peaceful protests were planned against the Colombian narco-state.

The actions of March 1 took place days before a major international demonstration scheduled for March 6. Promoted by The National Movement of Victims of State-Sponsored Crimes (MOVICE), the International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC), and countless social justice-based organizations, March 6 has been set as an international day of protest against those tortured, murdered and disappeared by the Colombian state, their allies within the paramilitary United Self-Defence Forces of Colombia (AUC) and the newly-reformed Black Eagles.

So with excellent timing, Colombia/USA invade Ecuador. How pre-emptive of them. They have also been supporting right-wing paramilitary groups operating within Venezuela in hopes of yet another attempted coup.

So yeah, I really see your point about Venezuela escalating tensions.

It sure seems that Venezuela is escalating tensions there.

Only if you look through Freedom™ glasses, proudly manufactured by US propaganda inc.

Only if you look through Freedom™ glasses, proudly manufactured by US propaganda inc.

Its better than the socialist Kool-Aid given out by Chavez&Co.

You don't have to say you are a conservative Philip, your comments here speak to that. You can agree or disagree Philip, no one is forcing you to do anything.

oh @!$%# off with your fascism. you like big concepts obviously, have you looked at yourself? you are a tiny little cypher, we are all politically meaningless [oh unless we carry a gun and shoot who we're told, that's noble in your estimation and pitiful in mine]

I'm not a fascist because I say so. Hows that. Now go off and defend your fatherland from your keyboard elsewhere. I'm often wrong but I consider you a dip@!$%# and lifes too short.

Philip:

For one, the distinction you make is a false one. The distinction between fascist and libertarian, largely a matter of structure, is different that that between liberal / conservative, a matter of ideology. So, you can be both leftist and fascist, as in the case of the Bolsheviks or Maoists, or you can be reactionary and fascist, such as the Nazis and others. Similarly, you can be libertarian and conservative (anarcho-capitalist) or libertarian and liberal (anarcho-syndicalist, libertarian socialist).

Instead of just talking nonsense, why don't we try to have a meaningful discussion?

Really?... Really??? Do you Really believe anything you just wrote?!?!

Oh please. Ok, do me a favor. First look up the definition of fascist, then look up how Chavez was elected into power and how he has run his government since. Then explain, point by point, exactly how he is a fascist.

Then, look up polls on Hugo Chavez and his approval rating, and explain exactly who needs to be 'liberated' and why.

Finally, look at the amount of popular referendums that have gone on under Chavez, and how he's followed their decisions, and explain whose freedom you want to protect.

Once we get through all your rhetoric and you can provide evidence... then I'll be willing to entertain a debate with you over the facts.

TJ is quite right here. Under Chavez, Venezuela has become what is called a "participatory democracy," the furthest thing from fascism that exists on the planet today.

haha, silly uninformed person. "under chavez" venezuelans are starving to death. crime in the streets has doubled (doubled is an understatement) every year (because chavez wants to keep his criminals in charge so people won't speak out and live in fear). education is poor and plummeting down every year (because chavez wants his people dumb and ignorant, ring a bell?).

participatory democracy, hah, so foolish of you swallowing that trash. venezuela is a dictatorship. chavez says, government/military obeys. as simple as that

gotta love the numbers too, he's been allowing illegal immigrants from every poor nation in the world, from senegal to cuba, into venezuelan territory so he can get their votes.

you like numbers? try the unemployment figures, murders per month figures, the kidnappings per month figures. try watching how the venezuelan currency is falling down a bottomless pit. talking about currency, go read about venezuelans exchange control. aka restrictions on the amount of currency that may be imported or exported from the country. it's making all kinds of big and small investors run the hell away from venezuela.

people chose chavez, right? yeah the majority of people voted for him back then. does that make him less of a corrupt pig? no, it only tells you one thing: the majority are uneducated and brainwashed and/or scared of the return of a extreme right wing fascist, such as the joker that failed to get chavez out years ago on the failed coup.

but then again, talking about fascist, chavez is the king of media censorship and attack on news channels. i'm not talking about silly goof g w bush, i'm talking about actually SHUTTING DOWN tv channels.

tell me again how is closing every private tv network he can get his hands on not fascist. "let's try our best to block any means of critique towards the government!" oh how democratic! such a participatory democracy right there. wake up

(FYI he already closed the largest channel, and he is constantly throwing direct shutdown threats at Globovision, which is pretty much the last news channel standing that doesn't kiss chavez ass. it's like if bush closed every channel but Fox. just like that.)

when was the last time you had to get on a bike-taxi and go around your whole city trying to find milk? and then (if you find it) having to stand on a 800 meter queue in order to get your single milk can from a soldier who takes it out of a military truck. Milk. i'm not talking about a custom hummer truck or some other luxury (luxuries you can always see on people involved with the government, just like any other bloody corrupt-to-the-bones government), i'm talking about milk, the basic liquid that the thousands of new born babies in the thousands of ghettos need. why don't you go and live in venezuela and then go back and tell us how amazing of a president chavez is. that is of course, if you survive an express kidnapping and multiple robberies you're definitely going to go through as soon as you get into venezuelan territory. this course assuming you're not oliver stone, iron maiden's former singer, that ridiculous model, or any of those imbecile CLUELESS celebrities that chavez loves to invite to venezuela and take on a trip around the 0.000001% of the country that can actually be visited without being robbed or killed.

there is NOT a single reason to support chavez. calling bush the devil and openly accusing the US government of being a dirty hungry monster with blood on its hands, sure makes chavez seem cool (because the american government IS terrible) but it definitely doesn't make chavez any less of a corrupt beast. he's just wearing pseudosocialist costume and a populist mask. people in latin america initially supported him because he was the opposite of the previous right wing fascist idiots who turned latin america into a dangerous garbage can, weak enough for people like chavez to come into power (yes it was their fault, it was the US' fault too, since the US funded many of those latin american right wing dictators in order to keep the communism out of the continent [paranoid yanks]). venezuelans wouldn't have even considered voting for this crazy clown if it wasn't for the previous governments' failures). those are the PEOPLE. now, the GOVERNMENTS in latin america support him because of - shock horror - oil. why else would they even listen to this crazy clown?. venezuela is floating in a massive pool of oil. just like chavez and his minions (the heads of big monopolies in venezuela, corrupt bankers living in miami, etc etc) are floating in a massive pool of money (little incident with venezuelan government minion caught traveling to argentina with a big fat suitcase of dollars, anyone? millions of dollars paid to the FARC, ever read of this?)

oh and good job cutting down imports and exports with colombia as fast as the snap of a finger, mr chavez.

chavez: "hey people, we're going to take away EVEN MORE food from you, ok? why? because i support the terrorists and the colombian army messed with my terrorist pals so now i'm pissed off so i'm not importing from them anymore, ok?!!".

that's et another thing about this joke president, he runs foreign relations as if the country is his toy and people are just little soldiers that will take anything because they're fighting for.... for something!.

oh and not to be a d**k or anything, but who the hell cares about you yanks serving/not serving your country? we're talking about colombia, venezuela, and ecuador here, so please leave your pathetic patriotic mumbo jumbo out of this.

Less Poverty:
http://www.cepr.net/documents/venezuelan_poverty_rates_2006_05.pdf

More Education:
http://stats.uis.unesco.org/unesco/TableViewer/document.aspx?ReportId=121&IF_Language=eng&BR_Country=8620

More Media Freedom:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/01/1607/

Questionable Corruption Scores: (I'll use the scores most people quote when they refer to Venezuela's corruption. 2 years to compare, both scores are the same and fall within the same confidence interval):
Before Chavez: http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/previous_cpi__1/1998
Last Year: http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2007

Now, those corruption scores are iffy, to look at, and you can pick up an explanation of why they may be misleading here http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2654
--------------------

On the other hand, I believe you are correct about food shortages of some staples, namely Milk and Meat, as well as a growth in violent crime. Most other groceries are still there, but it seems his price controls on milk and other staples pushed them out of the market, he has recently lifted those price controls, though I am unaware of the effect. But I'm not an expert on the region so I could be wrong and would like to see if there is something I may be missing.

---------------------

TJ:

You are quite right about some spotty food shortages which have become a problem. Every socialized economy goes through such shortfalls, as the price controls make such goods available to all, not just those with the ability to pay. Therefore, pricing certain people out of consuming a given good (milk, etc) ceases to be an effective form of social rationing. The government then has to step in and adjust the subsidies properly to maintain enough production to get the goods to everyone. Since everyone cannot have all the resources of a society all the time, naturally some rationing has to occur, its just a matter of how it is done. In my view, Chavez has taken the wrong course here. Rather than simply adjusting the subsidies he is loosing the price controls altogether, which will (to a certain extent) return wealth as a means of rationing of vital commodities. This adjustment, however, is not simply due to the shortages, but also out of a fear of Venezuela's rapidly climbing inflation rate.

he is killing his own people just because they don't support him

Where? Back up what you are saying!

Chavez has not killed his own people.

The "genocides" you refer to, namely in Vietnam and El Salvador, are very real indeed. However, the US committed them.

Nowhere man, perhaps you should move to these countries that you love! if you hate this country so much, move to Chavez land of freedom! and because the evidence is not on google, does not mean it doesn't exist. Has this country done anything good for you and the liberals?

First of all, I don't hate the US. It happens to be a piece of land on which my family and friends live, and I don't want to leave them behind. Furthermore, I rather enjoy the relative (by historical standards) freedom of expression we enjoy here. That does not mean that I have to support the policies this country exercises abroad, many of which are harmful to humanity as a whole save a tiny elite whom they benefit.

I'm Libertarian with a leaning toward Communitarian as one man is not an island.

Fiscally Conservative - Extreamly small Federal Government - Filter my tax dollars to my State and Local level where they do the most good.

Socially Liberal (whatever that means) - I choose what I do in my own home, not the Government.

I didn't vote for GWB and have been against the war in Iraq from day one. More pointless wars where our freinds today will be our enemies tomorrow isn't a good idea either.

I am basically a libertarian as well, but I am stuck voting republican because with the right candidate they can come closest to my beliefs. I did vote for GWB, but would have preferred a better candidate. We need to reform our election process to allow smarter candidates to run and succeed. I wish there was a true conservative party!

Phillip:
Couldn't agree more. The first step the US has to take is to open up the electoral process to allow a wider range of opinions to be heard. Essentially, the two parties which have a stranglehold on power don't represent anyone in the country anymore, and have become virtually indistinguishable.

Actually there is alot of truth to this. Note how these attacks come on the heels of significant progress Chavez and Correa made in negotiating with the FARC to release prisoners, etc. By taking a hard-line, they sabotage this progress, and present the appearance that it is their methods which are the only solution to the FARC problem, rather than rational negotiations and deliberation.

Exactly and FARC don't trust Uribe for obvious reasons:

After a ceasefire in 1984, the Farc was encouraged to establish a legal political party, the Patriotic Union, and to put forward candidates in the elections in 1985. The Patriotic Union was reasonably successful, securing six senators, 23 deputies, and several hundred local councillors. But the outcome was disastrous. After emerging into the open and putting their heads above the parapet, many of the UP supporters were singled out and killed. More than 4,000 left-wing activists and organisers were assassinated in the year after the elections. The guerrillas retired to their safe territories in the rural areas, and vowed not to make the same mistake again. Further negotiations took place between 1999 and 2002, but the government negotiators could not overcome this legacy of mistrust on the part of the Farc. When Uribe became president in 2002, he abandoned all such efforts and embarked on seeking an entirely military solution.

.oOsourceOo.

dJd:

Very accurate. Indeed, the UP was dangerous because it operated outside of the traditional elite structure, and was thus a threat. Naturally, it had to be eliminated.

Why don't you try making an argument instead of just ranting? I'm sure you are a smart guy who could defend his positions, if you would only present them.

If that was aimed at me Philip-219519 I suggest you click the reply button on my comment. However I doubt it, as I didn't even mention Chávez and you haven't addressed the point of my comment. Failing that you could always try starting your comment with the @ sign and the name of the person to whom your reply is addressed, or give the comment number, so we know who you're ranting at.

I am making an argument, are you not listening? Benli has made my argument for me better than I am able to! If it is so great in these countries why don;t you grace those countries with your presence and move there and participate in the great democracy with your hero Chavez! You liberals talk the talk very well. But you never put up the the goods by moving there and living the so called "Free elections" life there with Chavez.

I could just as easily ask why you don't go and live in Colombia. Getting back to the article, which is what we're supposed to be discussing here, the Colombians continue to lie and withhold details. Uribe originally told Correa that they had been in hot pursuit of the FARC and chased them over the border. It turned out later they were already there and asleep. So, illegal invasion, lying to your neighbours, both major diplomatic naughties. Hardly surprising that they withdrew diplomats and deployed troops is it?

The English language wire services report that the major act of aggression was Venezuela deploying its troops, rather than reporting the bit where Colombia invaded another country and killed people. The presidents of Chile and Argentina demand that Uribe explain. France, Switzerland and Spain say they'll continue peace talks, but hey, their chief negotiator just got killed.

Benli may have some valid points but it is hard to tell because it is wrapped up in so much hate filled rhetoric. I don't live in Venzuela so I cannot speak to the conditions there but I have not read in the MSM the conditions of which he speaks. Doesn't mean they don't exist but the MSM usually takes every opportunity to bash Chavez so I would be surprised if this is true but there may be elements of truth. Chavez was elected and reelected and appears to be popular with the people. That is usually the result of previous regimes being so corrupt or repressive that the current leader looks like a saint by comparison. To me Chavez seems to be a buffoon but that apparently is no bar to becoming a national leader in many countries including our own.
We have seen many examples of South American and Central American countries ruled by dictators of the far left, the far right, socialists, moderates, thugs, bandits and drug dealers. My point is, the world continues to turn, and as long we are not threatened, we should keep our noses out of their business as a general rule because where we do intervene we generally fubar things up; Cuba being a case in point. Communism would have long ago, failed in Cuba if we had not isolated them for over half a century.

No, I honestly don't know... and I'd love to be enlightened. I've done the Google searches and nothings turned up at all! If there's something I'm missing, I'm more then willing to change my opinions on the matter, and if there isn't, I'd hope you would be too. See, that's how we have a debate preacher, we don't just 'preach', we discuss, provide evidence, and are willing to accept that we may be wrong. We don't just say 'never mind", that we are 'wasting our time' and that the person you are arguing against 'probably already' knows what something, that just indicates that you don't have anything substantial to say, and if you do, I'd love to hear it!

Oh yeah, Google will keep you informed! Why not try reading something from a conservative angle. Open your eyes, idealism will get you no where. I see that Hillary won last night, I mean Bill won last night! I can't wait to elect Bill Clinton as president again! Wasn't he impeached? I can't wait to get free health care, free goodies, maybe I will retire early and live off of the government. Oh yes, the liberal ideal world. Give me, give me, give me. Try doing something for your country for a change. And yes I am ranting, deal with it. Or do you want to stop my freedom of speech because I disagree with you. Come on, let's here you squeel! Bill & Hillary for ever!

Sounds like someone needs a hug. Did you forget to take your medication?

Got a hug already and took my medication. Now what do we talk about. The hug was sweet and medication is necessary. Ok, so what's new with Senior Chavez the savior of the leftists?

Philip, my political beliefs don't factor into any of this. I have asked for evidence, you haven't provided anything to justify what you are saying aside from

Come on, let's here you squeel!

and

Give me, give me, give me.

Preempted by a bunch of nonsense about all liberals being fascists or fascist supporters, even though we've clearly demonstrated that none of what is going on under Chavez is fascism. Since you have failed to offer any evidence to back your statements, and you are just being inflammatory without reason, I am just going to assume you are a troll and ignore you. Say something worth while and we can engage each other in a valid and coherent discussion again.

Ok your right , there is no evidence to show he is a fascist. Again with the attacks, troll huh. Do you think fascist is a derogatory term?

Do you think fascist is a derogatory term?

When used inappropriately as you do, yes.

Fascist (definition)
Time to cut out the nonsense and the name calling and actually back up your position with facts.

Yes Philip, I believe Fascism is extremely derogatory, mostly when its not what a regime in power is doing. Fascism indicates a belief in cultural, religious or ethnic superiority. It is essentially an autocratic, undemocratic system, in which its beliefs, by necessity indicate that any opposition to rule and any person that does not fit into whatever is being touted as a superior trait, is immediately ousted, disenfranchised, and often abused. It is inhumane, amoral and results in gross violations of the human rights of groups that do not fit within the framework of a superior trait. As that is not the case with Chavez, this entire discussion is irrelevant to the debate on the topic at hand.

Now, I have not attacked you or anyone else on this forum, I asked for evidence. I did call you a troll because you were attacking with a lot of rhetoric, outlandish statements, accusations that I was an idealist and a Clinton supporter, and offered no evidence to back up what you were saying about myself, Chavez, Liberals or how that all mystically tied into Fascism. I have also noted, that if you are willing to engage in a coherent and valid debate, then I would be more then willing to respond and exchange opinions.

I will simplify things, Have you lived in Venezuela?

Whether I have lived in the country or not does not factor into anything we've discussed here, neither does my political affiliation. I show you evidence, you show me evidence, we debate. Please, get to your point.

My point is simple, you have your opinion. But in America I am entitled to my opinion. Your political affiliation is important so that I know what perspective you are coming from. As far as living in the country we are speaking of, living there would be the only true way you or I would know for fact what is going on. We are both fed what the media wants us to hear. I will stick to my opinion that Chavez is a Fascist! Also, your definition of Fascism is very accurate and I agree with it. But just like any political system there are degrees of fascism, liberalism or conservatism. I think to some degree he is a Fascist. To some degree I am a conservative.

Ok your right , there is no evidence to show he is a fascist

Followed by

I will stick to my opinion that Chavez is a Fascist!

Yes, you may have your opinion, but as you rightly pointed out, you have nothing other then your own opinion to back it. For instance, I could say that it is my opinion Chavez is a reincarnation of 18th Century writer and poet Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, but I have nothing other then my belief and opinion to back it... does that make it anywhere near correct or even somewhat legitimate, absolutely not! in fact, without any evidence and logic, that shouldn't even be considered to be a valid part of any rational debate.

As for your idea of 'degree', that doesn't even remotely begin to make sense. By that account, to some degree we could all be Nazi! And in stating that, it does nothing but muddle the entire discourse I'm attempting to have with you, which is based on facts, rather then beliefs and opinions without logical reason.

It also doesn't matter what my political affiliation is, I don't like the idea of political affiliation in the first place for a number of reasons. I look for evidence, I compare it to counter-arguments, and then I come to what I believe to be the best possible conclusion. If someone points out that my evidence is wrong or that my conclusion is faulty, then I listen, debate, and reconsider my position on the matter.

Can you form an opinion or come to a conclusion? You seem to go on and on. I got it you are good at writing, and describing complex issues and thoughts. This is a good talent for a diplomat. But if you are asked is a particular topic or fact good or bad, could you state your reply with a "good" or "bad" answer? What if i ask you is the color red red or blue what would be your answer, would you write 3 pages describing the color red?

What if I ask, "Are you with us or against us"? Give me a few pages on that one please.

We don't live in a world of good and bad, as you might like to assume... it is massively complex, and thus we debate and analyze it in order to come up to the best possible conclusions of why things are the way they are, then apply that understanding to the situation at hand. Sometimes what may seem to be 'bad' may intrinsically be more good then you would think, and what may seem to be 'good' may be terrible in the long run.... but focusing on the black and white ignores the massive grey space between, where most our world, except few isolated cases, operates in.

Now for your two questions, Red is Red, Blue is Blue. On the other hand, "are you with us or against us" could and has had books written about it in various forms that would make you cringe at how horrific that statement is. But we're getting off topic now, so lets not pursue anything else away from Chavez.

As well,

you are good at writing, and describing complex issues and thoughts

Thank you, I was not expecting the compliment, that is very gracious of you :) You haven't talked to me about Chavez in a while, even though I've tried to reengage you several times, have you turned a page?

Thanks for your valuable insight. We are all enlightened as a result of your participation in this debate.

Chavez being a huge buffoon is the main reason this is as blown up as it is.

That is correct, sometimes a simple observation is best , rather than all the blather from these people!

Good point Philip! Why bother with trivialities like facts and evidence? Just a waste of time! You are the smartest guy I know.

Oh another attack from the leftist "nowhereman" You won't get me to react to you in kind with your attacks. My point is you liberals can't make a "Simple" point because you do not have convictions of your own. You rely on facts presented to you by left leaning media that tells you what they want you to know. Try thinking for yourself and forming an opinion of your own. Facts are merly perceived opinions sometimes. You are not there to know the facts! Now maybe if you stop the childish attacks you could explain to me your thoughts and opinions if you can form one that is.

Try thinking for yourself and forming an opinion of your own.

Like "I think Chavez is a fascist, so he must be?"

You are not there to know the facts!

Are you?

Now maybe if you stop the childish attacks you could explain to me your thoughts and opinions if you can form one that is.

Everyone but you has done so. Please kindly bow out of the conversation if that's going to continue to be the case. Have a nice day.

This whole thing stinks. Bad. More "pre-emptive war" is coming from the US, IMO. By proxy this time. (Just so my comment has some useful substance.)

Go Columbia!

Gas Pants:

I agree - the response of the Democrats is embarrassing, but I would hardly call them the American left. More like the American "right of center."

Phillip:

Can you at least learn how to spell Colombia??

but I would hardly call them the American left. More like the American "right of center."

Nowhere man, exactly so. Hence the bequoted "left".

Gotcha. Sorry, nuance can be hard to communicate online.

I can't spell or read and write. But I know you look down that nose of yours with your condescending attitude because you think you are better than others! I would take an ignorant descent person over the stereotypical leftist! Answer one question,

What have you done for your country lately?

Try to form a simple one sentence answer if you can.

What does that have to do with anything?

But to answer your ridiculous question, I have paid taxes. Patriotism is an evil scourge, which distorts our perceptions and clouds our minds. Philip, you are a living, breathing example of what I mean.

Paid Taxes, that's all? This country doesn't run on the government. It is the people that make it great. Calling me a patriot is not an attack, it is a compliment. Thank you. I see you can't answer a question without another attack!

Phillip, you are the embodiment of Aaron McGruder's "Flagee and Ribbon."

Philip - I am a liberal Democrat. Most knowledgable people who use the term leftist are referring to communists.

Ok, what is your definition of liberal?

To properly define the word liberal Philip I would have to write an essay. What is your point?
For further study on liberalism you might refer to this article to get you started "Liberalism In The United States"

You mean to tell me as smart as you are you cannot put in a few words your definition of liberal. I know what the standard definition is, what is your defintion?

luckydog:

I am a leftist, although not a communist. But your point is well-taken: Philip needs to pipe down or else start making some sense. Maybe if we ignore him he will go away.

Nowhere - You could define leftist as someone to the left but as I pointed out it is commonly used to denote those on the very far left as in "leftist gurilillas". The actual meaning is somewhat inexact. I commonly refer to myself as a lefty or a liberal and I am proud of it. Those on the right have also tried to turn the word liberal into a derogatory term.

You mean to tell me as smart as you are you cannot put in a few words your definition of liberal. I know what the standard definition is, what is your definition?

As smart as I am I know better than to try and put a complex set of political beliefs and my personal political beliefs into a few words where they would likely be misinterpreted.

Nowhere - Philip is angry and although he cannot express the cause of his anger very well, obviously he is sure the left is at the bottom of it probably do to a steady barrage of right wing propaganda. Perhaps by showing him that his beliefs are based on far right wing fringe opinion and not facts he may learn the that the world is not as black and white as he seems to think.

I am not angry. I just find it funny that you guys are so full of yourselves (nowhereman & luckydog) that you can't answer a simple question, everything is so complicated in your minds because you think you know everything. You must be afraid to answer simple questions. I have dumbed it down for you so that you can handle it. I am not a republican, or a typical conservative, I am a registered independent. You guys are comfortable talking to someone who agrees with you but are too cowardly to answer a simple question.

What have you done for your country lately? Use one sentence if you can stop your self from blathering on about nothing.

I am not angry. I just find it funny that you guys are so full of yourselves (nowhereman & luckydog) that you can't answer a simple question, everything is so complicated in your minds because you think you know everything. You must be afraid to answer simple questions. I have dumbed it down for you so that you can handle it. I am not a republican, or a typical conservative, I am a registered independent. You guys are comfortable talking to someone who agrees with you but are too cowardly to answer a simple question.

What have you done for your country lately? Use one sentence if you can stop your self from blathering on about nothing.

I have given you the opportunity to show the world the ugly side of American politics while exercising restraint in the face of your insults thereby proving that not all Americans are fanatics incapable of reasoning.

One sentence and that is what I have done for America in just the last 5 minutes.

Have a great day Philip.

Ah yes, the miracle laptop that inexplicably survived a bombing campaign. The trustworthy Colombian government released documents it allegedly contained. Apparently the French are secretly in frequent contact with those nasty FARC leaders, the Italians are negotiating and brokering talks between FARC and the European Parliament and Ecuador in brokering talks with the good old USofA.

Does that make us all contibutors to a genocide I wonder?

Genocide, the fascist method of silencing those who disagree!

DBE928, finally someone who makes sense here! I agree with you totally. Nice to see a straight forward comment, not the condesending liberal spew

I thought you Americans didn't believe in the Hague tribunal - you've certainly excluded yourselves from any justice there. Obviously it only suits you when you can use it to persecute those who don't share your ideology.

Viva la Chavez, Viva la revolution!

Chavez did not come to power under revolution, What revolution do you refer too?
Chavez is still substantially more popular amongst Venezolanos than Bush is amongst Americans.

Viva la Bush! Viva la republica!