Torture Death Shocks Illinois Town

too many things... apparently

I just don't know what to even say. How can such "people" be living in the United States.

They should not be given the death penalty - they should be sent to Guantanamo where hopefully they rot away the rest of the pathetic lives.

I've always thought that the sterility and process of the court system in this kind of heinous case presents a good case for lynch mobs and vigilante justice.

A year or two ago, the Guardian Angels came into Boston after the corrupt police and mayor had done nothing while the murder rate skyrocketed. Unfortunately, they were made publicly unwelcome by both the police and mayor...I think they ended up leaving, because I have not seen them around town in a while.

Do they have the death penalty in Ms.? If they do, kill all the adults. Period.

It wasn't in MS, it was in MO, a Mississippi river town.

Don't ask what is wrong with people in this country. That trivializes the whole thing and is as wrong a statement as can be made. The vast majority would never be involved in anything like this. It is akin to blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few, doncha think?

That being said, the perpetrators of this travesty should be punished to the same treatment they dished out, but we're too civilized to do the right thing.

Yeah, I saw that, Phaedrus....doh...

No, it was Alton Illinois. And, yes, we have the death penality. Alton is near the MIssissippi River.

"No, it was Alton Illinois. And, yes, we have the death penality"

Good. Hopefully, it will be put to good and proper use.

Our governor put a moratorium on carrying out the death penalty several years ago. So, it just doesn't happen even if it is invoked.

Unfortunate. Especially in this case.

Yeah, I know. Normally, I don't support the death penalty. However, there are some cases that are so horrific that I can support it. This would be one of them.

what a tragedy! What is wrong with people in this country?

It is not just people ''in this country''.

The discovery of the dying Halimi near rail tracks in the Paris suburb of St. Genevieve on February 13 sent shock waves throughout France. The cell phone salesman was found handcuffed, gagged, battered, slashed and with burns over most of his naked body. He had obviously been tortured to death.

The interrogation of the since-apprehended gang, which abducted and then for three weeks held Halimi for ransom -- before, as French police report, dousing him with flammable liquid and setting him alight -- indicated that greed wasn't the sole motive

He was kidnapped and tortured for 3 weeks until he finally died.

The one year old child weighed 15 pounds. That is average for a 3-month old.
I'd be shocked if the child doesn't grow up to have a host of physical and mental disabilities from this bad of a start in life.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It is heart wrenching to read this kind of cruelty, it's happening World wide everyday.

methamphetamine is an ugly drug and ugly people do it! I agree there is nothing to say that does justice to the heinous nature of this crime. This is a case of group think, an unfortunate feature of human psychology, but certainly not forgivable. The death penalty is the least we could do to these people. At least that would ensure they never get to walk the streets again and the world is rid of them.

On this Ms Cyprah, you and I totally agree. Few stories can bring me to tears, but imagining this woman huddled in the basement, scarred and injured, sheltering her one year old child and harboring a baby to come - it reminds me of one of my favorite verses in the Bible, from Lamentations 1 "(12) Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me."

The only thing that matters for all humans, Keith, is their quality of life. When that quality is reduced to such depraved levels through cruelty and abuse, what are we all about?

Thanks for that heartwarming quote.

If you look at quotes from the bible as heartwarming, then lets look at the book of Job. He went through this, and KNEW he was getting his ass kicked. And it was on purpose. By God. (well Satan technically but God allowed it) The thing that matters, to you god people, is the end goal of eternal salvation.

How is it possible that you turn to the bible with a story like this? God LET THIS HAPPEN. And you turn closer into his arms of 'love' and 'destruction'.

On another note, if you look at the incredibly sad things other than the obvious...

1) the 12 year old kid who was charged as a juvenile. His whole life is demolished due to his parents being total bastards. He was taught to do this. And what are we other than what our parents teach us? And he has been taught to be a waste of life.

2) She was probably raped. The fetus was 6 months along and she had been living in the place for nearly 10 months.

3) The neighbors knew about it!?!? "Riley considered Dixon her slave, making her rub Riley's feet until Riley fell asleep and forcing her to run naked around the house when she got in trouble, the neighbors said." That is physical and mental abuse. Period. They should be punished for not alerting the police (assuming they didnt).

Im seriously disappointed in the people saying things about "the things that happen in this country" and posts along those lines. People are evil at times. Hitler, Napoleon, the U.S.'s foreign policy, the Contra's... Those are evil people from Germany, France, the United States, Nicaragua. But 'what is wrong with this country' is what's said? Blah. America is @!$%#ed up, but so is everywhere else.

While you have made some very good points there, Sweetmullet, when you make assumptions about people it always detracts from what else you might say, which is a pity, because it then loses its impact:

How is it possible that you turn to the bible with a story like this? God LET THIS HAPPEN. And you turn closer into his arms of 'love' and 'destruction'.

People will always turn to what makes them feel comforted at stressful times, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. Just because you might not share that belief too, does not invalidate it. The minute we start to diminish others in order to make what we say appear more valid, we also turn people off from from our viewpoint because they stop listening. People cannot respect us when we give them no respect by being intolerant of their perpectives.

For your information, I am not a Christian, neither do I believe in the Bible. But that does not stop me empathising with others in their own way and valuing what they cherish, so long as they do not try to impose it on me.

Sweetmullet

If you look at quotes from the bible as heartwarming, then lets look at the book of Job. He went through this, and KNEW he was getting his ass kicked. And it was on purpose. By God. (well Satan technically but God allowed it) The thing that matters, to you god people, is the end goal of eternal salvation.

I do find the Bible heart warming, especially in its overall message and I accept it as representative of an ancient wisdom and apply it to my modern circumstances where appropriate. That said, your citation of the Book of Job, while somewhat appropriate, seems to anticipate that the book I cited was perhaps something trivial or fluffy. The Book of Job is considered by some scholars to be a mythological/ allegorical tale, while others accept it as factual. Regardless, there is debate. The Book of Lamentations, however, records a historically traumatic event for the state of Israel, the Babylonian exile. Believed to have been written by the Prophet Jeremiah, the Book of Lamentations is simultaneously self-aware of the world's cruelty and that perhaps God may have turned away from the Israelites. Culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem, this is one of the defining moments in Old Testament history and the tradition of the Wailing Wall relates to this period. I cited this Book because of its dualities of beauty, and cruelty; perseverance, and suffering. I hope the quote makes us all realize that, when witnessing or hearing of tragedy, that we do not turn a blind eye. In that way we fulfill a higher purpose, we attain empathy and are the better for it. The Book of Lamentations illustrates that the Israelites could not know God's beauty without also witnessing the world's cruelty. One cannot imagine that which is sweet, if there is nothing bitter with which to compare it.

How is it possible that you turn to the bible with a story like this? God LET THIS HAPPEN. And you turn closer into his arms of 'love' and 'destruction'.

Blaming God for the cruelty of a group of people is an interesting but flawed observation.

I like the way you put that into context./

that's it!

You answered your own question, Kyle.

Jesus- What is going to happen to the children? How do you punish children who have known nothing but evil?

How, indeed! A very chilling prospect as far as their future is concerned. How do you turn around children like that?

Could be nothing. A lot of very bad stuff has happened to me in the past, and I help people. My take on evil is that it is inborn.

My take on evil is that it is inborn.

I don't think anyone is born with evil, juli54. Evil is a learned activity through rejection, neglect and abuse, like any other social/environmental effects on us.

I disagree, Ms. C. It sounds like you are saying that nurture is more to blame than nature, and I disagree.

As a child, I experienced all three 'rejection, neglect and abuse....and torture, for an extended period of time. Now I advocate for people with developmental disabilities. So I did not 'learn' to be evil.

So I did not 'learn' to be evil.

Perhaps because you CHOSE not to, juli54. I was like you, with some awful trauma in my childhood which I gradually overcame, and here I am a very strong person because of it, when many others would have become deviant. In fact, most of my friends did! So, even if people are capable of being born with evil, I give nurture the edge in influencing their journey.

Yeah, Ms. C., we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one...:)

I have to agree with Ms CYPRAH. Behavior is mostly learned and unlearning is tough but it can be done, Juli54, as you know. I also come from that kind of background.

In fact, I just remembered...Have you seen the movie "Affliction" with Nick Nolte, Sissy Spacek, James Coburn and Willem Dafoe? It's a good one (but sad and sometimes scary), there's a soliloquy at the end of the film (narrated by Dafoe) which is an interesting meditation on the problem as presented in the film.

So maybe the question should be what happen in your personalty, whether its nature or nurture, that caused ya'll to be able to overcome what happen to you in the past?

I think what Juli is referring to, is that there are those that don't or can't overcome ( I can't think of a better word right now) their past and their experiences make them more evil.

Is it something you are born with, genetic, to either become one of those that will be able to change from the influences in their past because not everyone is able to make that "leap" that ya'll have.

I haven't seen the movie, Tacitus. Truth be told, Nick Nolte kinda creeps me out, so I usually don't rent movies with him in them.

And, Sushicat, yes, that's kind of what I am talking about.

But I believe in the soul, the eternity of the soul. And some people are just evil. We can apply scientific labels if we wish, such as psychopath or sociopath, but in the end, we're still dealing with evil.

Tacitus, have you read the book, 'The Soul's Code', by Hillman (I think)? It's pretty thought provoking.

"...unlearning is tough but it can be done...". 'Tough' is an understatement, Tacitus. Some of it never goes away, but we don't use it as an excuse to prey upon the unwary and the innocent, do we?

Neither do we use it as an excuse to explain away our bad behavior, at least I don't.

J54,

Agreed - Nick Nolte is kind of creepy; also that some of that never goes away, it doesn't. There are some things that happen to all of us that we'll never get used to (like death of a loved one, for instance) but we learn to live with it. Whether this makes us stronger. I don't know, but people who have integrated their losses in some way or another do tend to be deeper, more compassionate..human.

And sushicat I also agree some people can't overcome but I also feel that this is environmental also. If there is no one available representing the possibility of better development then that path is effectively blocked for a child or young adult - the older one gets the more difficult it becomes to change entrenched patterns. A human being is the product of enormous sacrifice on the part of other people who understand what it means to be human. The primary (and most difficult) sacrifice is one of patience, compassion, respect, love and a tolerance of uncertainty toward the developing human being -- I know of few people (myself included) who have deep consistent reserves of these resources; there is only "good enough" in this category. And I'm being complex because the human being is complex. Sometimes one has to leave everything they know in order to become what they were meant to be.

Here's something I meditate on from time to time, it's from Emerson's Essay on Self-Reliance:

Why should we assume the faults of our friend, or wife, or father, or child, because they sit around our hearth, or are said to have the same blood? All men have my blood, and I have all men's. Not for that will I adopt their petulance or folly, even to the extent of being ashamed of it. But your isolation must not be mechanical, but spiritual, that is, must be elevation. At times the whole world seems to be in conspiracy to importune you with emphatic trifles. Friend, client, child, sickness, fear, want, charity, all knock at once at thy closet door, and say, — 'Come out unto us.' But keep thy state; come not into their confusion. The power men possess to annoy me, I give them by a weak curiosity. No man can come near me but through my act. "What we love that we have, but by desire we bereave ourselves of the love."

Friend, client, child, sickness, fear, want, charity, all knock at once at thy closet door, and say, — 'Come out unto us.' But keep thy state; come not into their confusion. The power men possess to annoy me, I give them by a weak curiosity. No man can come near me but through my act. "What we love that we have, but by desire we bereave ourselves of the love."

An incredibly profound quote. Thank you so much TA. That really strikes the chords!

Evil manifests itself in all societies.

BMS,

Agreed! Unfortunately, Americans have "the big game", beer and other things to worry about...

Evil manifests itself in all societies.

Quoted for truth. Let's not turn this sadistic tragedy into a rail against the U.S. That happens enough in everything else.

unfortunatly, America has a higher percentage of it.

unfortunatly, America has a higher percentage of it.

Could it be because it has far more people, BMS? :o)

For example, Britain has only 60 millions while USA has over 5 times as much. Stands to reason that more people will do many more things. One cannot say that there is more evil there per se.

I Agree with Ms CYPRAH,

A certain percentage of the population has always been criminally inclined (or sociopathic). It stands to reason then that more people means greater instances of the behavior. So, does this leave us with a discussion on the issue of population?

Right. This is not about America. This is about evil. Call it sociopathy if you like, but it still boils down to evil.

So, does this leave us with a discussion on the issue of population?

I don't think so TacitusA, otherwise it could be a veritable minefield of ezxploration! :o(

I've come to find through personal experience people aren't comfortable enough to address the population issue. Sort of an ostrich reaction.

"Americans need to look inward to figure this out. "

What a load of crap. Humans need to look inward.

SofaKing,

Americans are humans..some of them, anyway. But I see your point and you're right - everyone needs to. But then we run into the huge problem: The most difficult thing for a individual to do is to acknowledge their faults and change their behavior.

"The most difficult thing for a individual to do is to acknowledge their faults and change their behavior".

Sociopaths and psychopaths (both words just a scientific and PC way of saying evil) have no desire to change their behavior.

Julie54,

"Sociopaths and psychopaths (both words just a scientific and PC way of saying evil) have no desire to change their behavior. "

Whether one dismisses scientific teminology or not, there's a reason for such terms and it has to do with distancing oneself from the affect sufficiently to understand and, hopefully, do something proactive toward solving it. For this reason a Dr will use the term "hemorrhaging" as opposed to "bleeding all over the place!" A certain emotional detachment helps solve many problems by helping us to become less personally involved and, therefore, able to think more clearly.

It also saves us from the instinctual draw of the herd mentality. Remember the great scene of Atticus Finch on the porch in the book "To Kill a Mockingbird?" Atticus exhibited the type of discipline this line of thought instils - not that he would ever have become part of that mob, but he didn't open fire on them either. Joseph Campbell mentioned that one aware individual raises the level of awareness in those around them - I think this is true.

Now, in the case of a sociopath, this is precisely their problem - an inability to empatize with anyone or anything. It locks them into an infinite loop where they don't want to change because they don't see the reason (I know, my dad was one of these).

Be aware, even the best of us have evil (sociopathy) either latent or active.

Be aware, even the best of us have evil (sociopathy) either latent or active.

Tell me about it, TA, so true. Hence my reason for really disliking random labels and instant judgements.

This kind of case completely represents the torturous fear that parents of developmentally disabled kids feel, of what may potentially happen to our kids when we are gone.

A nauseating feeling that makes you want to exercise and eat tofu and live a hundred years.

They indirectly killed her by not saying anything. Not standing up for a developmentally disabled person. That is cowardly.

So true, figureofstick, so sad and true. We are all responsible in some ways for each other.

Perhaps, but we do not know if the neighbors could have seen anything. We also do not know if the 'landlord' could have seen anything. My take on this is the house was a Section 8 situation, so the state should have been doing check-ins.

Either way, the adults involved, perhaps even down to the 15 and 16 year old, should be executed. I hope they will be.

Very true Ms CYPRAH. I think that some people feel that if they say nothing about it then nothing will come of it. Which is completely incorrect.

Juli54 That is also true however the article does state

"Being in their house was like being in a prison day room," Hudson said. "They just sat around the kitchen table and fought."

There are two things there that stand out to me as markers for something not quite right in the household and perhaps I should say something to some one about it. They are the fact that the person says it was like being in a prison day room. Prison day rooms aren't very nice to be in. in fact they're probably worse than the prison itself and the fact that "they just sat around the kitchen table and fought" This isn't normal for any family or friendship to do. I do understand the position the neighbors were in however. If they say something what if it turns out that nothing is happening. Where do I stand with them? Will they know it was me? Will they hate me. What if I say nothing and something is happening? What should I have done? Told someone? done something to stop it?

It gets very confusing and stressful when you start to think about these sorts of things. I have been the neighbor of an abused child. My family lived in terror whilst they were next door. It isn't nice to be either in the position of the abused or some one around the abuser or the abusee. :(

I hear you, Figureofstick.

You are so right, figureofstick, so many valid questions to be answered with no 'right' answers in sight.

Vincent, this is not about America. Evil happens everywhere.

Please explain why you would blame an entire nation for the horrible acts of a few. It makes no sense. Horrible acts happen everywhere.

c anderson:

Did you read the comments (which all got a good number of votes)?!?

#1: "what a tragedy! What is wrong with people in this country?"

Response (#1.1): "too many things... apparently"

Response (#1.2): "I just don't know what to even say. How can such "people" be living in the United States..."

Response (#16): "What kind of society can develop such sick sadistic people? Americans need to look inward to figure this out."

Many more comments apply here. Anyway, what's blame got to do with it? The country needs change. Your comment's inappropriate and overly-critical and/or awkward.

To criticize one's country is to do it a service and pay it a compliment. It is a service because it may spur the country to do better than it is doing; it is a compliment because it evidences a belief that the country can do better than it is doing. Criticism, in short, is more than a right; it is an act of patriotism -- a higher form of patriotism, I believe, than the familiar rituals and national adulation.

--J. William Fulbright

Vincent: Making this tragedy into a political football is definitely wrong and certainly inappropriate. How do you explain Manson? How about Dahmer? All societies have sick, perverted, evil people. And, by the way, your insults don't make you appear to be more informative. They just make you appear silly.

Our country and our government are not responsible for this outrage. The people who committed the crime are responsible. Fulbright was not referring to individual Americans committing crimes. He was referring to acts of the government.

Sadly, you cannot turn every issue into politics. Nice try though.

Vincent: Making this tragedy into a political football is definitely wrong and certainly inappropriate. How do you explain Manson? How about Dahmer? All societies have sick, perverted, evil people. And, by the way, your insults don't make you appear to be more informative. They just make you appear silly.

The idea was that any society that has a tragedy like this needs a change. It just so happens it occurred in the United States of America. On the other hand, one claimed in comments about this that we have the worst of these sick people.

Where do I insult you? On the contrary, you say I "appear silly," an ad hominem after an appeal to emotion about "insults," both psuedoreason. I criticize your posts. I may like your pic. However, I will also add that you haven't been on Newsvine for very long, appear to still be in the Greenhouse, and I only mention it because of the name calling in #24.4. Your lack of Vineacity makes your comment inappropriate besides. What's the problem?

Aren't you fascinating? So, you are superior because you have been voicing your opinions longer. I can see how that makes your thoughts more important and relevant than mine. I bow to you. However, you are still a jerk.

And, just what type of "change" do you propose? Evil lurks in all societies. We hear about it more in the US because we are in the US. They are horrible no matter where they occur. Still, to think that you can make a "change" to our society that will prevent this is shortsighted.

"Still, to think that you can make a "change" to our society that will prevent this is shortsighted".

Right, Canderson, it is not a societal problem. To think that we can somehow create a proverbial Utopia where evil doesn't exist is naive.

Evil is a human problem, not a societal problem.

On the other hand, if we enforced our laws more stringently, the evil freaks in our society would have to curb their 'tendencies' somewhat. But evil would still exist.

juli54:

On the contrary: if anything it's naive to think that changes in a society don't make a difference. I can think of some good examples. Nazi Germany comes to mind first. I suppose a citizen of the former Soviet Union couldn't complain much there either. They enforced laws in those countries too, and the Holocaust resulted for one.

Anyway, I'm ignroing Newbie c anderson for now. I don't like the situation here now at all, and justified ad hominems come to mind as an option. Some things are better left unsaid.

And, of course, Vincent chooses to ignore a "newbie" because their opinions and insights are irrelevant. Makes sense to me.

Of course, this also excuses him from detailing just what those "societal changes" would be. Now, he can live in his own personal belief that we can, somehow, wipe cruel and perverted behavior from all human minds.

I'm getting tired of this new "change" craze. It is attached to everything and never defined. What "change" will prevent sick human behavior? I'd like to know. Indeed, the entire world would like to know. If Vincent has the anwer, it would be fitting and proper for him to share and save lives.

BTW, yes, I am fairly new here. So, I need a little help finding my way around. Is there a "Newsvine Snob" list somewhere? I know of someone who deserves top billing!

Yes, Juli54, you are right about enforcing the laws. How many children are sexually abused and killed by a repeat offender? It happens far too often. We need to get harder on the bad among us. Still, that doesn't save the first victim. And, there is no way to know who will offend until they actually do it. Every society has delinquent behavior. I see no way to wipe it out. I wish it were possible. I haven't been this sick over a news item since little Jessica Lundsford was buried alive.

People, people...can we please step back for a minute? Pretty please? I've been reading this thread and I think it derailed here:
Vincent Bartning: Clipping to America's Need for Change, I also feel very bad about this. c anderson: Please explain why you would blame an entire nation for the horrible acts of a few. It makes no sense. Horrible acts happen everywhere. Then everything started to degrade rather quickly. When that happens, it's tough to get back to participating in civil discourse. We can disagree. We can discuss. We can debate. The thing we should avoid is the attacks - especially personal attacks. You both have made excellent points. Can we get things back on track, please? This whole issue of nature vs nurture, is a fascinating topic.

Agreed, Canderson, we DO need to get tougher on the bad guys, repeat offenders, etc.

I think the nature v. nurture topic is fascinating, too, Lauhal. But in my opinion, from everything i've read, studied, and experienced is, nature has more impact.

I think the nature v. nurture topic is fascinating, too, Lauhal. But in my opinion, from everything i've read, studied, and experienced is, nature has more impact.

Whereas my experience has been different, juli54, with my life being a prime example and the impact of the different environments on it.

juli54:

The bad guys in government who don't do their job, for example government malfeasance such as police abuse, district-attorneys' offices lacks of ethics, and unfair court decisions, deserve more attention than the drug users, though they contribute to drug use and violence with their poor example and improper use of power making it unethical to complain about the problem to them. Our prisons already hold more of our population, both numerically and as a percentage, than any other country's in the world.

P.S. Besides critical thinking, we should also bring Newsvine's Code of Honor (COH) into this discussion, especially #1, "Above all else, respect others. If you see disrespectful behavior, report it, rather than further inflaming the situation." They also plan changes to the COH BTW.

lauhal:

You are absolutely correct. My sincere apologies.

I wish there were a way to "change" the whole world and make these things not happen. If anyone has that solution, it should be shared. That would be better than belittling a person because they are new to a news website.

My most interesting (and frightening) class in college was "psychology of deviant behavior." I learned a lot there. Mostly, I learned that no one knows why these things happen--not even the evil doers.

I'm just not sure that any "change", even in government or law enforcement will remove the behavior from our society or any other.

In the nature vs nurture argument--I feel it is a combination.

Don't want anyone to think I'm being rude and not answering. So, let me explain that I am now leaving the cold and snow of northern Illinois. I am taking my granddaughter to Memphis to see the giant pandas.

c anderson - Ah...some major snow, eh? We got about 4 inches, but some parts north of O'Hare got twice that. Have fun & be careful. Give those pandas a wave for me. :)

Vincent - I agree. The CoH is there for a reason...to guide us all and make Newsvine a great place for discussion. Thanks for the reminder.
The article you linked to...wow. Those numbers are staggering! Some states spend more on corrections than they do on higher education - yikes.

"While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."

Wow. I'm speechless.

Oh, and julie54, c anderson & Vincent - Thanks for accepting my friend requests. :)

"While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."

That is some statistic which no state should be proud of!

Obviously, if some states spend more on correction than education, small wonder that so many people are behind bars! How do they ever get the opportunity to be shown a new perspective? Or to be educated out of their current behaviour and narrow, negative outlook on life?

Oh God I remember that one. It's all too ugly.

We've become numb to pain. We've lost our compassion for others.

You are so right, Rebecca. It's the constant images of death and violence that come at us and I suppose we anaesthetise ourselves by pretending it is not going on and ignoring it, or laughing at it, as you said, because we cannot cope otherwise. Like a useful defence mechanism.

Score 2 for throwing politics into the boil! Huzzah Rebecca! Huzzah Vincent! Do either of you have a template for the "3 degrees of separation from anything to politics"? Bad form.

I hope they can rehabilitate the kids from this. The adults should be tossed in a pit somewhere.

Oh so very true. society as a whole I believe is trying to make ourselves immune to pain, suffering, death and abuse because we can't cope with it. Because we don't want to find a salution to our problems. We don't want to admit that we might be wrong and that we need help to regain some sort of normality. This doesn't just go for one locale it goes for the entire world whether you be in a first world country or a third world country it's happening every where.

I guess it's true evil. Or in the words of eminem "Everybody has a shady side" that is coming out and rearing its ugly head.

Score 2 for throwing politics into the boil! Huzzah Rebecca! Huzzah Vincent! Do either of you have a template for the "3 degrees of separation from anything to politics"? Bad form.

I hope they can rehabilitate the kids from this. The adults should be tossed in a pit somewhere.

Thanks, Ivy. You've managed to remind me why the visits I pay to Newsvine these days are few and far between. I actually had the good fortune to forget about the few knuckleheads who sully the site with their mindless fervor; and thought I might make a contribution. Some of us prefer to provide food for thought rather than--"bad form," dontcha know?--slinging bucketloads of sh*t. After all, the tagline is STILL "Get smarter here." Or have I missed something? Like I said, I'm not around that often.

I can tell you one thing, IM: If Viners of your ilk are the only ones left clinging to the Vine following an exodus of the best and brightest (and I don't necessarily count myself among that number), then the Newsvine tagline is going to have to undergo a major revision. I'll leave it to your oh-so-limited imagination to figure out just what that might be.

Huzzah!

Swing and a miss Rebecca. Can I remind you of something else? Slinging childish insults not only degrades you but also the vine as well. Why is it when I insert my opinion your only reverberation is to go immediately blue? I disagree with you a lot and since I've come here have come to respect your intelligence, except when it comes to throwing cat calls across the alley. Is it really necessary?

Swing and a miss Rebecca. Can I remind you of something else? Slinging childish insults not only degrades you but also the vine as well. Why is it when I insert my opinion your only reverberation is to go immediately blue? I disagree with you a lot and since I've come here have come to respect your intelligence, except when it comes to throwing cat calls across the alley. Is it really necessary?

Oh sure, they are. Whaaaa? Are you getting all reasonable on me now"? Whadda joke.

Guess what? You can have your way. Keep up the good work. It's all so predictable, you see. You make an insulting remark which, in turn, elicits the desired response and then you act as if you're a paragon of good manners and moderation. Pretty transparent, Ivy.

Never mind. I've totally lost interest in one-upmanship. After all, this article isn't about me and you. It's about something a helluva lot bigger and much more tragic, more dangerous. Let's push aside the ego game and focus on the issue, shall we?

Peace out, man.

It's inches. You're seeing her at 66 inches (5'6"), incrementing at 3", e.g. 57", 60", 63".