Pope Baptizes Prominent Italian Muslim

Oh my. This should be interesting.

Yes-- very unusual news item.

Looks like Benedict just bought a fatwa. When do the riots begin?

The pope certainly know the attention he'd get by baptizing this guy. So why'd he do it? I'm sure he had about 10,000 other people he could have baptized instead.

LOL, I like this pope, he's sticking a finger in Osama's eye after his threat. No doubt more threats to come from the radical muslims, more burning of effigies and flags and probably more terrorist attacks.

I mean how much more provocation can the jihadists tolerate? They have feelings too-or should I say 'a' feeling: rage-towards anyone who doesn't hold their 7th century barbaric worldview.

This former Muslim, if his conversion was/is real........is dead.

The Islamic faith will not allow this to happen.

Wait I take that back; the extremists will not allow it, they will kill him.

replytoj001

The guy was hardly a Muslim. At most you could consider him an ethnic Muslim as he grew up in a religious home but did not pray nor fast. Considering his lack of religiosity and his wife being Catholic, it is not surprising that when he found religion, he chose Christianity.

I like this pope,

This pope is an ass. It makes me ashamed to have even been Catholic at one time.

This pope is an ass. It makes me ashamed to have even been Catholic at one time.

Why is he an ass Gwenny?

Have you read any of his proclamations?

I'm not defending him Gwenny, I just wanted to know why you think he's an ass, and I have read a few of his books, and I am aware of his theology.

DIDNT THE POPE DIE A LONG TIME AGO

No-- the attempt failured.

THATS PRETTY COOL HOW THE POPE FORGAVE HIM I WISH OBAMA WOULD DO THAT

THATS PRETTY COOL HOW THE POPE FORGAVE HIM I WISH OBAMA WOULD DO THAT

Do what now?

By the way, your caps lock is on.

Obama? umm... are you one of those Rednecks who think Obama and Osama are so close in sound that they are the same?

YEAH I KNOW WHEN MY BROTHER BECAME A BAPTIST THE CATHOLICS WERE ALL LIKE WTF WERE NOT BEING YOUR FRIEND NO MORE

AND THEY WERENT

Einstein, if you don't mind, will you please turn off the CAPS LOCK, it comes off as unfriendly, almost like shouting.

you know what extremists catholics can be!!!! all that yelling and gun waving around the vatican---its shameless I tell you shameless

Umm...

Catholics can be very extremist.

Extremism is the the same thing as gun toting and yelling... but I would like to point out that the IRA is a Catholic orginization.

you know what extremists catholics can be

Yes. I've read history and I grew up Catholic. One of the reasons I advocate adding religion to the DSM.

woah... there should be a "NOT" right after "is in my comment there.

I knew you were being sarcastic. But the accumulated weight of 1600 plus years of violence and political intrigue make your statements true. The reason this is such a momentous event is some earlier ass of a pope started the first Crusade. You know, thousands of men traveling to the "Holy" Land to slay the Saracens and kings beggaring their countries to fund extravagant armies to impress the heathens and other kings.

@Gwenny.

beggaring their countries to fund extravagant armies to impress the heathens and other kings

That sounds awfully familiar, don't you think? Humans have not gotten past that yet.

Well, Bob Dylan didn't stay Christian for long, either.

Just sayin'.

EHAD

I DONT USE CAPS LOCK I JUST HOLD DOWN SHIFT

Just curious-- why do you post in all caps?

why?

WHY DO YOU CARE

WHY DO YOU CARE

Don't. Good bye.

Einstein,

You are being rude. people thought they could help you but now you seem to be happy with being a rude, yelling jerk. Don't expect anyone to read your comments.

WHY DO YOU CARE

Because we need some light entertainment until the staff come along and ban you. Carry on dancing for us, Clown.

First of all, he wasn't a practicing Muslim. According to Islam, a Muslim is a Muslim when they follow the instructions of the Quran and the Holy Saints.

I just asked a friend of mine, who practices Islam, what a "Holy Saint" is. Could you explain to me what a "Holy Saint" is so I may compare.

replytoj001

All the profits in the bible... including Jesus and his mother Mary.

I just asked a friend of mine, who practices Islam, what a "Holy Saint" is. Could you explain to me what a "Holy Saint" is so I may compare.

replytoj001

All of the Infallibles in religion. From an Islamic perspective, the Prophets of Christianity and Judaism, like Prophet Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc. the Last Prophet Muhammad, and his Household.

May not be a Practicing Muslim but it is kind of like the Mafia, You don't practice you don't live. But what the heck? Tony Blair Converted also.

I could do with fewer Teutonic surprises.

I am a member of the Catholic faith, and of course conversion is an option to those who are interested. But this is a public and symbolic conversion that carries the whiff of repudiation and challenge. This writer and critic has been rewarded handsomely for his positions, lest we forget.

Let's recall that those Swiss Guards are unarmed (albeit splendidly colorful). If things do get overly emotional, I say we remove those Swiss Guards and replace them with proud Sicilians.

Mustafa is an extremist.

"He didn't pray, he didn't fast, etc. Those are counted as major sins."
I'm muslim though I dont fast and pray all the time.. oh my according to Mustafa R. Im sinfull as hell... Dont listen this people, faith comes from heart and from your actions...
And about this tread, I do agree that this whole thing is just a show...

Actually, no, not according to Mustafa R. Among all Muslims, it is believed that not praying and fasting are major sins. Along those lines, yes, you are very sinful as hell.

Only God knows what we reveal and what we conceal.

Mustafa is an extremist.

That's quite extreme of you for calling me that.

I guess I'm an extremist that loves doing do-nuts in his new Chevrolet Corvette, attends a NHL hockey game every week and a half, and holds turkey eating contests in his backyard every thanksgiving.

Whoa dude, Mustafa is one RaDiCaL XtReMiSt!

the U.S.A is doomed see why!

America is not Doomed silly person, it is in a constant state of revolution, and has been since the beginning of the American Revolution.

and now i will take away your gun rights so you can't fight and my new world order

Yes, the government could pass a law that would restrict gun ownership, but that does not necessarily equate to taking away your gun rights. No one can change the Bill of Rights, and they cannot be ignored by anyone either. The only choice is whether you choose to enforce them or not at any given time.

is to put something in your water so that all of the world will die slowly of disease,fammin, check the news and see that i have already started the debate on your second amendmendt to bare arms.and they have found the floride and other drugs in your water.

Your assuming everyone in America drinks the same water. All of America will not die, but the illumination of concerns such as this is what keeps America going in the first place.

and the global warming is to help and i will also lock up all the money in the world through your banking systems so that you cannot run or hide from the new world order.

Okay you being comical now, money is only as good as someone is willing to use it for trade. Regardless of where the money is locked up, the true value of any society is in its people and the ability to trade. You don't necessarily need paper money, or gold coins to trade with. Goodwill and a load of commodities is enough. As long as you have something to trade, other people with trade with you.

so i am giving the world 2 months to take out your money and all people of the world that has any bills that they pay i will attack them first because you are helping my army to grow buy all the credit and the world economy will crash now check here is ware i did my first push see it here. watch your weather , and the news for my army is now compleat and we are setting up for the attack so if you belive in your goverment they are all liers and they will help me as of today!

The one predictable thing about all governments is that they all eventually fall apart. Ultimately, the people of the society have the last say in everything. The Constitution of the United States was never intended to be something handed down like a magic ring from one generation to the next. It is a "Warning Label" and a instruction guide, divinely conceived wisdom by a group of people who lived in a time of blatant government corruption by many government, not just the British, that basically says, "Hey, if you want your government to survive, there 10 things you should never do, hence, the Bill of Rights." The bottom line is this, if the current government decides to not listen to the wisdom of the constitution, well, it will fail, and the people will install a new government. It is really as simple as that. You cannot destroy the constitution, because it is simply an outline stating how people should construct a government through common sense and good faith practices.

Uncleandy...

1) you sound like a communist or Ayatollah with your perpetual revolution talk.

2) America is doomed. We have been doomed since the 1980s with the corporate take over and loss of our rights (there are rights outside the first and second amendment you know)

1) you sound like a communist or Ayatollah with your perpetual revolution talk.

No, i am neither, am a red blooded American. I like the fact we get to pick a new leader every four years. I save a lot of money on ammunition that way. I think if I lived in a monarchy, dictatorship, or Marxist styled society, I would be to busy fighting the government all the time and never get to watch any football.

2) America is doomed. We have been doomed since the 1980s with the corporate take over and loss of our rights (there are rights outside the first and second amendment you know)

Well, see the great thing about America, unlike any other country, is we always change direction just before we drive off the cliff. America just accepts that revolution is the way to keep the country going. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, be warned, that is all Americans care about..

we always change direction just before we drive off the cliff

I hope you're right and we don't find ourselves looking down, like Wiley Coyote.

uncleandy,

I was simply trying to point out how your rhetoric sounds very much like those two types of people. I am trying to open the eyes of the American population to the reality of the wider world as it were.

you sound like a communist or Ayatollah with your perpetual revolution talk.

He's just following in the footsteps of our founding father, Jefferson, "The tree of Liberty must regularly be replenished with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I certainly have no issue with the comment. I was just pointing out the parallels it had with other politically undesirable people.

Good point, Pamela, very true.

Pam,

It was all over the blogs and news sources I read, which means absolutely nothing in terms of mainstream as I read a lot of science, foreign and atheist sites. However, I googled "new seven sins genetic" and got 93k returns, some from mainstream news sources like CNN. And, of course, Alternet ran a pretty in depth article. ::thinks:: You know, I don't think any of the conservative sites I read had anything. That's weird. They are usually all over Catholics.

Thanks so much for that feedback: it's so nice to see Alternet's gmo coverage grow too.

Pope Benedict XVI believes that unlike other religions, Islam cannot be reformed and, therefore, is incompatible with democracy, according to a Catholic leader who participated with the pontiff in a secretive meeting on the subject.

I have heard that point of view. But-- not all Muslims are reactionaries-- not all are fundamentalists. There are also some who feel that Islam can be reformed-- that it does not have to be stuck in centuries old beliefs and practices. [One such Muslim progressive Muslim is Irshad Manji. She is a devout Muslim -- but she is working toward more tolerance..and reform of Islamic extremist views. See ''Misconceptions of Muslims in the West''-- a Muslim progressive speaks out.

Thanks for that info, iqbal, that background makes the pontiff's move even more symbolic.

It is a two step process, being baptized is a symbolic expression of what you already feel in your heart. In other words, you have concluded that Jesus is who he says he is, in your own mind, and now you want to express that feeling in an effort to make it real. Think of it as pinching yourself to see if your awake, or your just dreaming. Confirmation, is basically an announcement to the church that you are joining the congregation and the congregation is now recognizing your membership. In the Catholic church, just like many other organizations, the only requirement is that you confess your faith in Jesus as Lord and Saviour (son of God), that is what you were doing when you were baptized.

If your a child, your parents have you baptized, AKA crisen in the church, but that does not necessary make you a member of the congregation. When your old enough to decide for yourself, you have a confirmation, and a First Communion with the congregation.

In just about every Christian congregation in the world, all the members must join of their own free will like the apostles did when they decided one by one to join Jesus on his travels.

Right. But since baptism is often performed before the individual's age of reason, the confirmation is important as a profession of faith. I guess what I'm asking is whether one is allowed to receive communion simply by being baptized, or if confirmation is also required. I think the notion of "First Communion" being after confirmation, implicitly answers my question.

First communion is not always after confirmation. As a child, I received first communion in grade 1, and confirmation in grade 8. They are both usually done at the same time for adult initiates, while baptism is ordinarily performed near birth for babies.

That seems consistent with baptism at young age, age of reason at 7 or so, and then confirmation later. Is it correct that confirmation involves a fair bit of study? Could one loosely compare confirmation it to Bar Mitzvah?

sirmonkey,

Here is a Q & A about the Sacraments of Initiation each is a separate sacrament: Baptism (1st) First Holy Communion (usually 2nd) and Confirmation (usually the 3rd). Children progress through these rites from birth until about age 13 through study of the Catechism. And here's another overview of the Church Sacraments from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Sorry if it's redundant.

I almost laughed hysterically (in a post Second Vatican Council era) when a family member asked a priest at my sister's infant baptism: "Father, does a child still go to Limbo if he or she dies before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism?" The priest looked as though he was about to burst out laughing.

As an adult convert, I imagine, Magdi Allam may have participated in a Rite of Catholic Initiation for Adults (aka: RCIA).

btw: a bit of trivia - I still miss the bells during the blessing of the Euchristic gifts. The last church I had belonged to didn't use alter servers or bells.

Many thanks! Much better (more direct) than I came up with in my own googling around. Got the pertinent parts and will review the whole Catechism compendium.

Limbo! That's silly. Everyone knows it's Purgatory ;)

I have to wonder at the hidden Papal agenda here.

Not so hidden. A lot of bridgebuilding between cultures is just a poor excuse of exporting Western values, whether secular or Christian. Most people do not take into account that a lot of Western values, secular and Christian, are completely FUBAR and would - if implemented in a too rapid pace or in an uncritical manner - leave a hole in the Middle East bigger than Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

Then there are the bridge-blowers. They basically aim to mess things up by introducing new flash points in the ongoing discourse between cultures and religions, such as publishing cartoons as a political statement or making Islam critical movies. They know it does not serve a noble purpose, but it will direct the attention of the "ignorant Westerners" to the "imminent threat" (read: inflame the situation).

OK, silly, I get it-his way or the highway to h*ll. Because that is how I read his message, both the spoken and the unspoken. Real leaders don't deliberately spit in someone's face while claiming to be the godfather of peace.

If he really wants to broker peace, he needs to empty the Vatican treasury for those starving and war torn people. I am certain it is what Jesus would do.

I am further certain that Jesus would not rebuild the Vatican should it be destroyed, or have those charming little plaques engraved; he would spend the money on the poor, the widowed, and the orphaned.

Jesus told the parable of the two men in the temple praying, one quite loudly reminding God of his piety at the front near the altar, the other from the shadows where his shame at his sinfulness caused him to hide as he prayed for forgiveness, strength to not sin again, and guidance in a more acceptable life.

If Rome did these things, only then would I feel he is not trying to inflame the already inflamed with his so very public show of accepting a high profile convert into the faith.

Umm, could you try to refrain from calling people silly? I'd be unhappy about it if I hadn't noticed you do it to everyone you feel doesn't share your opinion (Please note the sarcasm, please).

Denegration and name calling is the sign of a bully, and I would hate to think you are a bully.

The more public the better?

I too would die for my faith (Christian) if it were to defend it in truth-that is, the reasons God and His prophets have taught those who would learn are right reasons to die for faith, but not to start something, which is what I feel this conversion was really about.

Please see my reply above to Unclean.

This pope seems not to shrink from creating controversy. Given that he thinks that Islam cannot be reformed, I suppose he must think to welcome Muslims to convert to what he believes is the Truth. It is a gesture of magnanimity, on this view. What he really has in mind...well, I try not to impute negative motives.

No, he doesn't shrink from creating controversy. Of course, JPII stirred things up too, but his motives seemed more Christian, more in keeping with the Spirit.

Being Anglican, I don't have a very high comfort level with Rome; JPII however was transcendent. This current guy bothers me, I see too many shadows of the late, not-so-great or lamented Torquemada in him.

I must confess that, when he was elected, and there was some guy on the street under where they announced him, yelling "You're making a big mistake!" I was right there with him in spirit. I liked JPII as well, but this one is taking some getting used to. He's very political, unlike his predecessor, altho, he had his moments too, e.g., Poland.

That's a very interesting perspective, gedanken. I know a lot of what the Church does is political, but that angle hadn't occurred to me. Thanks.

Everyone who converts from Islam to Christianity faces a death sentence and many are killed every year.

Much like Judaism and Christianity at earlier points in their development. This is still a deliberate slap in the face of Muslims and he should be ashamed of himself.

you blame Islam for the violent nature of a small number of its adherents?

Try looking at the violent Christians around the world.

The words of the Koran are no more violent than the words of the Bible.

Gwenny: Salman Rushdie is still alive and kicking. Though he may still look over his shoulder 50x a day.

Unless you do fear the Muslim violence.

See, this is where personal experience comes in. I happen to know a LOT of Muslims. None has ever offered to hurt me. OTOH, I grew up Catholic. I was raped for years by my Catholic father and when I finally got the nerve to tell the priest, he called me a liar and said I would go to hell if I ever told anyone else my filthy lies. Told me never to come back to confession until I had real sins, not make up stuff to confess. I haven't been back in nearly 40 years. I figure is swearing your father isn't a sin, I'm not able to sin.

In the intervening nearly four decades I've been lied to, attacked physically, cheated, had my youngest kidnapped and nearly lost my other children to Christians. I've seen several people's lives totally destroyed in the name of God. I've seen abuse you would not believe condoned by ministers who threatened abused women with death and hell if they left their psycho, god fearing husbands. In the 15 years since I left Christianity, a couple of pagan guys hurt my feelings a couple of times, but atheists, Muslims and Jews have never hurt me. Only Christians.

So based in my experience, there is FAR more to fear from Christians than any other group of people.