HD enthusiasts crying foul over cable TV's crunched signals

Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:59 PM EDT

technology, hd, compressed, in-brent-swanson

MINNEAPOLIS — In Brent Swanson's basement home theater, there should be nothing drab about "Battlestar Galactica." He's got a high-end projector that beams the picture onto a wall painted like a silver screen, and speakers loom in the corners, flanking two big subwoofers.

Yet when he tuned in Sci Fi HD for a recent episode filmed in high definition, the image was soft and the darkest parts broke up into large blocks with no definition. Explosions, he said, were just dull.

"It kind of looked like they took the standard definition and just blew it up," said Swanson, a 33-year-old graphic designer and videographer who subscribes to Comcast Corp.'s TV service. "I couldn't really tell if what I was seeing was really better than what I saw on regular television."

As cable TV companies pack ever more HD channels into limited bandwidth, some owners of pricey plasma, projector and LCD TVs are complaining that they're not getting the high-def quality they paid for. They blame the increased signal compression being used to squeeze three digital HD signals into the bandwidth of one analog station.

The problem is viewers want more HD channels at a time when many cable and satellite providers are at the limits of their capacity, said Jim Willcox, a technology editor for Consumer Reports magazine.

"They have to figure out a way to deliver more HD content through their distribution networks," he said.

Compressing the signal is cheaper than costly infrastructure upgrades to increase capacity. Satellite TV providers — including DirecTV Group Inc. and Dish Network Corp. — also have the option of launching satellites to boost the number of HD channels on their systems.

While information is nearly always lost when signals are compressed and then uncompressed, the process can theoretically be made unnoticeable to eyes and ears — and Comcast says it should be.

But some viewers say they can see it. Willcox said complaints about compression have been showing up on Web forums, including the AV Science Forum, a site for serious audio visual enthusiasts.

"It's not exclusively Comcast, although Comcast, being the largest cable provider, is probably the largest target," he said.

Derek Harrar, a Comcast senior vice president in charge of video, said the company recently began using new technology on some channels to compress three HD channels into the bandwidth of one analog station. Other channels continue to get the previous 2-to-1 compression.

In a posting on the AV Science Forum, Ken Fowler of Arlington, Va., compared Comcast signals with those on Verizon Communications Inc.'s all-fiber-optic network, which doesn't have the same capacity limitations. Fowler found the higher-compressed HD stations, including Sci Fi, Animal Planet, the Discovery Channel, the Food Network and A&E, fared particularly poorly.

He analyzed the signals by recording them on a digital recorder, then transferring them to a personal computer for analysis. He found there was much less data, measured in bit rates, flowing to some channels than others.

For example, Discovery's bit rate was 14.16 megabits per second on Verizon's FiOS system but only 10.43 Mbps on Comcast; A&E HD was 18.66 Mbps on FiOS compared with 14.48 Mbps on Comcast. The FiOS system didn't offer Sci Fi HD, which Fowler's testing showed at 12.59 Mbps on Comcast.

He found the signals from the major networks and ESPN weren't getting the increased compression.

In an interview, Fowler said he reran his analysis about two weeks ago and found "basically the same thing."

Philadelphia-based Comcast wouldn't identify specific signals that are 3-to-1 compressed, and a Sci Fi channel spokeswoman referred questions back to Comcast.

Harrar said the company works to make sure any new compression technology is invisible to consumers, but Comcast is "constantly monitoring our network and making adjustments" for best picture quality. The company has been rolling out the new compression technology at different times around the country.

In fact, postings on the AV Science Forum from early April suggest the Comcast network has improved in some places.

And there are other reasons a high-definition picture can appear subpar: The source image might not have been recorded in HD, or the television's settings, the viewing angle and even the ambient lighting in the room could be the cause.

New York-based Time Warner Cable Inc. has avoided many of the criticisms aimed at Comcast, although the companies are technologically similar and face the same capacity limits.

Time Warner spokesman Alex Dudley attributed it to his company's testing procedures. He said that before Time Warner rolls out new technology that may affect image quality, it sets up two identical televisions in a lab, one with the old signal and one with the new. Technicians make adjustments until the pictures can't be told apart.

"The testers are our engineers who we call 'golden eyes,' who have a proven track record of picking up subtle differences in picture quality," he said.

Verizon's FiOS doesn't compress the signal once it receives it, and Willcox said it's considered the picture quality "benchmark." However, Verizon said the system is growing but is now available only in parts of 17 states and has just over a million subscribers — compared with more than 24 million for Comcast.

He said two possible solutions are on the horizon, an improved version of compression, called MPEG-4, and something called "switched digital video."

Comcast and Time Warner Cable have introduced switched video on a trial basis across their networks. In concept, it's like on-demand videos. The company sends only the channels the viewer is watching, instead of all the channels at once.

But switched video has its own issues, including possible slower channel switching times and compatibility problems with digital video recorders.

Willcox said cable providers can't afford to ignore quality complaints. Many customers are already picky about quality after paying $800 to $3,500 for an average-size, HD-ready LCD television.

Swanson, the "Battlestar Galactica" fan, is sticking with Comcast for now.

"It hasn't gotten bad enough for me to consider changing," he said.

___

On the Net:

Comcast Corp.: http://www.comcast.com

Time Warner Cable Inc.: http://www.timewarnercable.com

Consumer Reports: http://www.consumerreports.org

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{"commentId":1717575,"authorDomain":"ocmdba"}

Bill S

I ditched cable for air.... Never thought I'd be saying that....

I remember dad ditching air for cable because cable had a better singal. He'd get a kick knowing it's now the other way around.

Tthe HD on my cable stunk, so I bought $50 HD antennae, and BAM! Instane, beatiful, crystal clear HD from the local channels. NOTHING on cable comes close to the quality.

.. Oh yes, it's $100 les per month as well (FREE), so took the money and bought a blu-ray dvd player with true 1080p. Sweet....

{"commentId":1717575,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"ocmdba"}

2 votes

#26 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:07 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717584,"authorDomain":"huntergr"}

john holt

For a year and a half we have had six different HR 20 receivers from direct tv. Every imaginable problem has come up, and to this day we get poor sound on HD and picture freezes. I won't go into all the problems that we have experienced, for now cable is a better alternative. Direct tv should be sued for their lack of delivering what they advetise.

{"commentId":1717584,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"huntergr"}

1 vote

#27 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:10 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717634,"authorDomain":"vbgsr609"}

Vbgunltd

I agree, the HD signal via my Time-Warner NE OH cable is lousy.
The only decent HD I get is from my OTA signal from my antenna via my set top box.
Fortunately there are 3 network channels, an independent and PBS in my area.
The PBS signal is the sharpest, too!

{"commentId":1717634,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"vbgsr609"}

#28 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:22 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717700,"authorDomain":"bppatterson"}

bppatterson

i don't send any money to those cable/sat. t.v. jackasses. ya'll are shooting yourself in the foot, quit sending them money if it sucks so bad.

good article though. it'll all come to a head soon enough. you don't even need a cable for h.d. , but the cable company says the problem is that there cables can't hold any more info...sounds like some crap to me.

{"commentId":1717700,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"bppatterson"}

#29 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:35 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717738,"authorDomain":"pgoldberg"}

PaulGo

Comcast was pretty sloppy in implementing this technology and they got caught "with their pants down". In theory with the variable bit rate technology they should have only cut back on the resolution of the fast motion scenes where it would be hard for people to see the lower resolution. Instead they shot themselves in the foot and I think no matter what they do as it will be hard for them to get rid of the stigma of giving their customers an inferior product.

Cox is one of the exceptions and is being very active in improving their bandwidth to potentially 3 GHZ! They are employing technology by Vyyo Corporation called "Spectrum Overlay". I hope the other cable companies will employ similar technology so they can improve their HD quality.

As the saying goes you only have one chance of getting it right and they blew it! Until Comcast implements better technology and are able to demonstrate this to the the public that they can have a high quality HD picture they have a public relations disaster on their hands!

{"commentId":1717738,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"pgoldberg"}

#30 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:44 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717753,"authorDomain":"dannypmoe"}

watson

No. HD viewing isn't what it's all they've talked about. Or maybe the reception we get at home is alot different than what is being sent to the display floors at BEST BUY or Circuit City. The difference is very noticeable. I also agree with the "Cut off the actors heads" part when viewing HD. Are they downgrading their showing of HD the closer we get to the mandatory change over from analog to HD? Whatever the issue is, home HD viewing is or hasn't been what I expected it to be.

{"commentId":1717753,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"dannypmoe"}

#31 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:48 PM EDT

{"commentId":1719033,"authorDomain":"george-sica"}

Worth Florida

If you are getting heads cut off then you are looking at a SD signal and you have your TV set for "crop" in the "picture" setting up of the TV. Read the manuals!

{"commentId":1719033,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"george-sica"}

#31.1 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:50 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717763,"authorDomain":"zr4"}

Henry Eckstein

Being from Vancouver, Canada (where they shoot Battlestar Galactica)
I understand they shoot at 24 frames per second progressive scan 1080p (1920 by 1080 pixels)
using Sony HD-CAM ($135,000 a pop) cameras and their FX are all rendered at 24fps for mastering. This means their final DVD-based episodes are pristine
and when the Blue Ray versions come out they will be utterly superb.

It also means that the broadcaster or the compression company that is providing the MPEG-2
distribution feed to the satellite/cable companies is probably screwing up because I've seen HD 4:4:4:4 mastered BSG episodes and they were INCREDIBLE quality compared to
Comcast, Verizon, Telus and Shaw Cable there was NO Comparison to the masters.
Ergo the Cable/Sat companies are using BAD compression on their feeds!!!!

The other problem is that most people do not understand that their cheap Walmart/Best Buy
flat screen bought for $788 is NOT HD but more like 1024 by 768 or MAYBE 1366 by 768 pixels
which is a horrendous math calculation to perform when downscaling 1920 by 1080 video
to such absurd resolutions. Of COURSE your video will be blocky!

In my case I hook up sat provider to my 24" 1920 by 1200 pixel LCD computer monitor
using an HDMI graphics cards (ATI series) and get a SUPERB picture almost as good
as that $30,000 Sony BVM series video monitor I have in the basement at work.

The ONLY to fix this is to WRITE to our cable/sat provider and COMPLAIN...because
the squeaky wheel DOES get the grease...If You want better quality, then TELL them what they have sucks and that if THEY don't change then DirectTV/ExpressVu will get OUR business
So comcast - Get Your Act together lest your premium customers DEFECT to those
you give a BETTER QUALITY PRODUCT!!!!!!

{"commentId":1717763,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"zr4"}

#32 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:50 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717768,"authorDomain":"dannypmoe"}

watson

{"commentId":1717768,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"dannypmoe"}

#33 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:51 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717816,"authorDomain":"lugnutathome"}

Don Bolton

Broadcast HD is 1080i or 720p. It is important to note that regardless of the input signal your display will render the image at its native resolution. It remaps or re scales the input image to its display. A good 1080i image will render very well on a 1080p display. But yeah a true 1080p image comes only from a 1080p source.

As to the BSG being filmed in 1080p... If that is true there is a LOT of graining in the images especially Razor. Either they are filming in low resolution or they are going to great pains to create a murky grainy image for feel. Maybe it adds to the dramatic "air" but at times it seems more like cheap production.

{"commentId":1717816,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"lugnutathome"}

#34 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:05 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717818,"authorDomain":"skipster56"}

skipster56

I have Comcast on my 52" HS Plazma and when I turn to the HD Plazma channels, I feel, I have nothing more that my regular channels. I don't see any pristine quality that I was told, was delivered to those upper channels. I complain and it falls on deaf ears.

{"commentId":1717818,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"skipster56"}

#35 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:06 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717830,"authorDomain":"skipster56"}

skipster56

If you see parts "cut off" then you should try adjusting your screen with you remote that comes with the HD Box.

{"commentId":1717830,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"skipster56"}

#36 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:08 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717839,"authorDomain":"skipster56"}

skipster56

I'm waiting for FIOS to be available and I will be going with that.

{"commentId":1717839,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"skipster56"}

#37 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:10 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717845,"authorDomain":"seekeroftruth"}

Lou-270595

Comcast recently upgraded our service with a new 1 meg service and the quality is much better. The HBO HD channel on an 1080i plasma screen is outstanding - like 3D. Live sports are also great. Some channels, like SciFi are not as good - might be the content.

{"commentId":1717845,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"seekeroftruth"}

#38 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:11 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717861,"authorDomain":"mpscentralflorida"}

MPS CENTRAL FLORIDA

WHEN I ORDERED MY HDTV AND HAD IT INSTALLED BY ADELPHIA/COMCAST THE INSTALLER MADE THE COMMENT THAT THEY WERE USING THE WRONG CHANNEL AND BANDWIDTH FOR THE HDTV SO I WAS NOT GOING TO GET GET CRISP CRYSTAL CLEAR RECEPTION

{"commentId":1717861,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"mpscentralflorida"}

#39 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:14 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717877,"authorDomain":"benrw"}

benrw

If you're going to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on an infant technology, then expect to be disappointed much, if not most, of the time. I have little sympathy for those who complain about their HD service.

Personally, I'm waiting a couple years before I even think about getting HD service: the cost-benefit ratio just isn't there yet.

{"commentId":1717877,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"benrw"}

#40 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:21 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717914,"authorDomain":"jeremyemalheim"}

Jeremy E. Malheim

I don't mind the picture stretch as much as the constant pixelation and artifacting I "enjoy" with Comcast's signal.

{"commentId":1717914,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"jeremyemalheim"}

#41 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:32 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717927,"authorDomain":"evilgenius"}

evilgenius

I just wish I could afford an HDTV to complain about it!

{"commentId":1717927,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"evilgenius"}

1 vote

#42 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:35 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717960,"authorDomain":"camerafixer"}

PackratKing

Digital -- Schmigital !! I loathe the whole freakin' concept !!

But then again.............that is where modern technology is taking us, so if you are going to purchase second-rate equipment........expect second rate performance.

We have Upstate NY Time-Warner, a 50" Philips rear-projection, and few complaints with picture quality on HD. Even on HD, when you have a movie going with a lot of subject motion in long distance - to - infinity, you get disgusting pixellation, I don't care how good you think your equipment is..............it's just the nature of the beast.

Friends / family with sattelite have very little but but rage to communicate.

{"commentId":1717960,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"camerafixer"}

#43 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:41 PM EDT

{"commentId":1717976,"authorDomain":"rhb9972"}

FreeAirWave

Put up an antenna on the roof, then start watching your local HD broadcast. Try a sport program "you can tell when they use a HD camera and went they don't", you can listen to your friends say "why does your HD look better than my "cable/sat" HD. Watch a PBS outdoor program, the girls and those cases, you name it and it will always look better than Cable/Sat programing. Unless you have a LCD and like dark scenes in green tint.

{"commentId":1717976,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"rhb9972"}

#44 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:43 PM EDT

{"commentId":1718011,"authorDomain":"joelsanabria"}

JoelHDTV

HD isn't worth it at all. And I have a Plasma HDTV from Dell.
It doesn't even give you the full length of the picture.
Sound and Picture quality are either the same as standard or dull.

Not worth it at all!

{"commentId":1718011,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"joelsanabria"}

#45 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:51 PM EDT

{"commentId":1718023,"authorDomain":"stockhus"}

Joe Stockhus

I got Direct TV after having Comcast and WOW!!! I now know what all the HD hub-bub was about. I can't even watch my old 37" TV.... Comcast gave me the run around till I finally gave up and paid a termination fee.

{"commentId":1718023,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"stockhus"}

#46 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:55 PM EDT

{"commentId":1718064,"authorDomain":"nonconformist"}

non-conformist

I say the cable conglomerates need to spend the moldy money they've been stealing from us for the last several decades and upgrade their systems without signal compression.But unfortunatly it is not the way of large corps. to give the customer what they have been paying for! Yes,This could be the beginning of the end for cable----GO SATILLITE!

{"commentId":1718064,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"nonconformist"}

#47 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:05 PM EDT

{"commentId":1718081,"authorDomain":"robert-j-humphrey"}

RJH

In Seattle Comcast just sucks, we've have them in 2-3 times a year for picture quality complaints. Nothin, 10 years of how good it's gonna be when it happens, sounds like the old systems analyist saw. It just never happens. Poor picture discrimination, tileing, halting. Not worth what it costs, but it's the only game in town.

Circles

{"commentId":1718081,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"robert-j-humphrey"}

#48 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:08 PM EDT

{"commentId":1718100,"authorDomain":"nhguy78"}

nhguy78

I do not have access to FIOS and I will NOT subscribe to wire services of the coaxial companies. I have DirecTV and I am extremely happy with the service I am getting. If I could possibly get bumper stickers from DirecTV I would them up everywhere. DirecTV is digital already. Why would squeeze content through coaxial service routers and landlines that are corruptible. DirecTV doesn't have that disability. Certain coaxial services complain that DirecTV is disrupted by bad weather. It is only disrupted if the dish is not aligned properly or it is loose. Poor excuses for bad companies.

{"commentId":1718100,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"nhguy78"}

#49 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:12 PM EDT

{"commentId":1718341,"authorDomain":"video500"}

Video500

I have comcast HD on a Samsung 50" plasma. I agree with most of the comments about widely varied quality of HD content. But, what really frosts me is networks like TNT that run distorted transmissions of movies! I can't watch these programs, they make me motion sick! They stretch the left and right areas of the screen, while leaving the center unchanged. The results are people with one wide shoulder if they are close to the edge of the frame. And when in that position, if they turn their heads to the left or right, their head stretches like the Elephant Man! I already have enough gripes with networks that edit movies for content, and speed up programs to leave time for more commercials, but if they are calling their channel HD, then they should not intentionally distort the picture!

{"commentId":1718341,"threadId":"253036","contentId":"1442388","authorDomain":"video500"}

1 vote

#50 - Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:08 PM EDT

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HD enthusiasts crying foul over cable TV's crunched signals

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