Obama says Iraq trip could refine his policy

I feel your pain Pittsburgh2, if I supported Obama I would be frustrated and tired too. It's hard to defend this guy, because he changes what he believes everyday.

Next he will flip-flop on ever being a Muslim and throw Michelle under the bUS.

Pittsburgh, I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't want a leader who was unable to adapt to circumstances and, yes, change his mind. (We've had a resolute and unchanging leader who never admitted a mistake for 8 years and look where it's got us.)

It's long past time to drop the phrase "flip flop" from our national lexicon except in regard to footwear.

It's long past time to drop the phrase "flip flop" from our national lexicon except in regard to footwear.

I agree Robert. To flip-flop implies a reversal in decisions. That is, a 180 degree turn around. Obama has not done this in any way, shape, or form.

Well, this article has been double posted here. I responded there in comment 1.4 and I'm not going to repeat myself. I had asked the question of how Obama is reversing or flip flopping on the issue. If you care to respond to me - please read my post there prior to doing so as it's a little extensive. Thank you. :)

Obama is another clone of Hillary and McCain. They all represent the corporate and class system, with its imperial plutocracy. I had reservations about his diversions about race, just as I had reservations about Hillary's diversions about gender, when in fact it is all about class and imperial polcies, and political hacks like him serving the class Empire of the U.S. Nader go after him, again as a corporate hack, he deserves it.

Pittsburgh

Gimme a friggin' break. You mean Barry has to go to Iraq to "refine" his position when the evidence of the turnaround has been there for anyone with eyes to read for the past six months? Did he happen to sleep through Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker's briefings in April? This guy's making Bill Clinton look like the Rock of Gilbraltar by comparison. I know what he's trying to do (run back to the center after running left in the primaries to appease the nutwing of the Democratic Party and win the nomination) but why should anyone believe him now when the situation hasn't changed remarkably since April when he was all about getting out now and getting out fast.

after running left

I guess you don't know what left is, to make that assertion, Bill. Of course, to you anyone to the left of Alan Keyes is a leftie, right?

Bill Harrisan,...He is hypnotic. Many people have projected their hopes onto him. It's a little like the Copenhagen Syndrome. They have become hostage. They refuse to admit they've been had. Now we look backwards in a different light. What the hell was this "movement" about?

-lol bill getttign he word from bush's yes men,, is a bitt different from seeign it on the groudn.. and you can say they arent bush's yes men.. but everyone else that disagred with bush, has now since found other work.. personally I would like to see with my eyes as well instead of looking in the media.. or bill do you really want me to belvie that mccains little stroll through the bagdad market was honest? or I know that report by the gop senator that featured a picture of a city in turkey and called it iraq?
yah that kind of news should make it all ovious to me huh

Yep that's it, what are the real differences in the candidates? It is hard to find them since Obama is courting the "blue collar " workers that he had disdain for. All us mad, barn burning, foaming at the mouth gun and religion clinging rat bastards! We just cling on all that because we are angry. Did anyone ever think we enjoyed the outdoor experiences we had had with our fathers, sons, wives and / or daughters. And how could anyone who will throw away his minister and friend of 20+ years and his church, understand anything about loyalty?

If there is one thing Obama understands, it is political expedience.

George H,...You've got to understand, folks who grew up in Hawaii, Indonesia, Cambridge Mass and Chicago aren't going to have the same outdoor opportunities you have. It's hard for him to relate to "...undereducated, white, working class people living on less than 50,000/year." (I don't assume anything here) Verbally you did a fine job of expressing, thanks.

Scipio A,...Don't forget the inimitable Trippi. This selfless team who only expect white house access. They are not only Obama shapers, they are among them all polymorphous perverts.

Maybe you should take a look at This Also..

It's hard for him to relate to "...undereducated, white, working class people living on less than 50,000/year."

Right, because he's never seen that before, you know, growing up in that same environment, or working in Chicago organizing that community.

After living in Hawaii, living in Indonesia, going to prep school, going to Harvard and then getting involved in South Chicago politics; employing legalistic fine points to gain his Senate chair. What same environment? He was a Johnny come lately to Chicago. He has nuanced his biographical pennings.

I would never vote for Obama! He threw his grandmother under the bus to make a point about racism! Now that's what I call family values. The man has no experience to be president. Just on resumes alone McCain has him crushed. This is he highest office in the land and he hasn't been in the Senate for 2 years.

Stephen:

Obama threw the Reverend Wright under the bus by telling everyone he had a white grandmother.

Scipio A,...Your comment is hard to out. Whatever you mean I think I might agree. ???????????

lionred-330988

I feel your pain Pittsburgh2, if I supported Obama I would be frustrated and tired too. It's hard to defend this guy, because he changes what he believes everyday.

Robert MaxwellPittsburgh, I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't want a leader who was unable to adapt to circumstances and, yes, change his mind.

LoL...You wanted "Change"....You're already getting a taste of it. I "Hope" those changed [REFINED] promises don't start to disappoint you.

(We've had a resolute and unchanging leader who never admitted a mistake for 8 years and look where it's got us.)

And now you want someone else [refining Barack] who agrees with him [GWB] at the last minute ?

But then, "changing" his mind...is easier than "changing" what you want changed...Isn't it?

And after all of this, I'm still waiting for a response in both articles. Go figure.

arcanebliss,...I think many of us are feeling independent of relevance. Maybe the idea of refining is too nuanced for those who were attracted to early Obama.

I'm not fond of strict anti-war supporters anyways, they live in a fantasy world. Nobody [well, sane - anyways] loves or wants war.

it would have been acceptable if his whole candidacy is not based on his Anti-war stance. The truth is that he won the primary with his 16 month timetable rethorics. He beat Hillary on that premise. May I remind you what he has said in the past that raise his profile to the top?

#1 "If there is a funding bill that does not have a timetable for when we begin withdrawal, and the completion -- a plan for how that withdrawal will proceed -- I will not support it," said Obama during a wide-ranging foreign policy discussion at Des Moines' First Christian Church.

#2"No timetable, no funding. It is time to bring this to an end."

#3 Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. - from www.barrackobama.com

Obama = 12th 'hidden' Imam

This is what he said just a few months ago, for those who asked for links or his stances

"ABC's Charles Gibson: "And, Senator Obama, your campaign manager, David Plouffe, said, 'When he is' -- this is talking about you - 'When he is elected president, we will be out of Iraq in 16 months at the most. There should be no confusion about that.' So you'd give the same rock-hard pledge, that no matter what the military commanders said, you would give the order to bring them home?"

Obama: "Because the commander-in-chief sets the mission, Charlie. That's not the role of the generals. And one of the things that's been interesting about the president's approach lately has been to say, 'Well, I'm just taking cues from General Petraeus.' Well, the president sets the mission. The general and our troops carry out that mission." (Sen. Barack Obama, Democrat Presidential Candidate Debate, Philadelphia, PA, 4/16/08)"

Obama: "I will listen to General Petraeus given the experience that he has accumulated over the last several years. It would be stupid of me to ignore what he has to say. But it is my job as president, it would be my job as commander in chief, to set the mission..." (Fox's "Fox News Sunday," 4/27/08)

Obama: "[W]e have to send a clear message to the Iraqi government as well as to the surrounding neighbors that there is no military solution to the problems that we face in Iraq. ... So we have to begin a phased withdrawal, have our combat troops out by March 31st of next year, and initiate the kind of diplomatic surge that is necessary in the surrounding region to make sure that everybody is carrying their weight." (Sen. Barack Obama, CNN/YouTube Democrat Presidential Candidate Debate, Charleston, SC, 7/23/07)

Thanks restlessSFO, I was looking for that blatant flip-flop on Iraq by Obama because I remembered it really well. If I find that video interview on YouTube where he says these things, I'll post it here.

This alone proves Obama's nothing but a con-man who'll say anything to get the presidency. Obama's an Artful Dodger-all things to all people.

Obama's economic policies essentially come down to this.

Here is another great article to give Obamaites fits!

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/07/07/1644979-joint-chiefs-chairman-security-gains-holding?threadId=308539&cmt=2138788#c2138788

So he's willing to change his mind over time is a bad thing? We have a president who sticks to something even if it's wrong.

I thought that Obama supporters believed that he offered a "new politics." I don't mind him changing his mind but I don't approve of Bait and Switch politics.

check the guys nick
see these are the same people that when you point out one of bush's failing they claim that YOU HAVE BDS.. it isnt bush.. see it is YOUR CLINICAL hatred of bush.
Now I ask you to look at his name again.. and tell me who has DS and who doesnt.

I thought that Obama supporters believed that he offered a "new politics." I don't mind him changing his mind but I don't approve of Bait and Switch politics.

Obama for a long time has said this. It's not bait & switch, when he's already said that he would refine his policy. Watch some of the debates. :]

I have done so. My impression was that his early campaign was based on his morally superior speech on the war. He seemed to feel that this honestly awful war should be brought to an end by employing a time line. Not unreasonable. His opponent paid dearly when exposed to his rhetorical flourishes. Now he finds himself in the same spot, more or less. How he deals with this in the face of some of his support in revolt will tell the tale.

#2

Victory in Iraq? Now why does that sound like Mission Accomplished? Is Iraq the paragon of Middle East democracy that thousands of American soldiers died for? Is your measure of victory fewer IED's blowing up American soldiers (less coffins making the trip home) and Iraqi civilians? Did not the President and his staff at the start of this war posit a democratic Iraq as a beacon of democracy and peace in the Middle East as the raison d'etat of this miserable adventure?

This stupid war that Bush has started has gone on longer than WWII!

Are there Iraqis walking the streets of Bagdhad unaware of the Shia-Sunni divide and just feeling the love?

Meanwhile, back in Afghanistan, the war George abandoned to NATO in favor of that megalomaniac camel jockey has blossomed with a resurgence of the Taliban. Both Obama and McCain should visit Kabul sometime soon.

magz,...May I amend one of your phrases? "...has turdblossomed with a resurgence of the Taliban."

I apologize for using the phrase camel jockey. Its racist and has no place in rational discussion. I have no excuse. Megalomaniac would have done nicely on its own.

My reference was Rove aka Turdblossom.

I have a foreign policy question. Should we not listen to Obama's positions but rather listen to Susan Rice and the woman he threw under the bus in London?

Except before he said he wanted all troops out immediately.

Could you provide a link? As far as I recall phased withdrawal is what he's been advocating all along. From a debate last September:

If there are still large troop presences in when I take office, then the first thing I will do is call together the Joint Chiefs of Staff and initiate a phased redeployment. We've got to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in. But military personnel indicate we can get one brigade to two brigades out per month. I would immediately begin that process.

Whoops, that debate was from August.

No link I typed it in from watching the piece on CNN (Thank you DVR pause functionality)

Could you provide a link?

I'd be happy to and note the date:

I believe that we are more likely to resolve it, in your own words, Ambassador, if we are applying increased pressure in a measured way. I think that increased pressure in a measured way, in my mind -- and this is where we disagree -- includes a timetable for withdrawal.

Three months ago Obama was still pressing for a timetabled pullout but the situation on the ground hasn't changed dramatically in that three months (although it has continued to improve). This "refinement" of Obama's is a purely political move on his part and it's transparent

I am beginning to understand the nature of this environment. It's psychedelic. Everyone is linking and doing research and observing. It all gets fed into vines and then you swing through the cyber rain forest.

well you'll notice the right hjardly ever provides links and when they do.. they wont quote what supports their position, they would rather you hunt through the testimoney to find the one line they have taken out of context.
but anywasy I'm not sure what bill thinks supports his point as from his own link

OBAMA: Nobody's asking for a precipitous withdrawal, but I do think that it has to be a measured but increased pressure; and a diplomatic surge that includes Iran. Because if Maliki can tolerate as normal neighbor-to-neighbor relations in Iran, then we should be talking to them as well. I do not believe we're going to be able to stabilize the position without them.

so do you see the flip flop?? no cause it has all be manufactured.. look at the mans own words.. just cause he pundants say over and over and over again that he wants immedaite withdrawl, that doesn't mean he actually said that.

Let's define time-table. I don't know what it means to you, but in the military world, it means estimate. And anyone with military experience knows about military-time vs. real time. (for those of you who don't...it's a bit slower)

So a 16 month time-table is not unreasonable in my opinion. As a fluid military force, we understand that could likely mean as much as twice as long, and possibly longer. We are trained above all, to adapt and overcome. (but mostly to adapt)

The point is that there needs to be a plan in place. As of now (as far as I'm aware) there is no plan on the table for withdrawal from Iraq. That is not to say that we don't have capable military leaders with valid plans of action for withdrawal; only that those plans are not being taken into consideration by the current administration.

I see Obama's "time-table" as a good place to start. We can not maintain the current rate of deployments indefinitely. It is destroying our military from within. The stress on the troops is tremendous.

When I enlisted just 4 years ago, the policy was 12 month deployments followed by 24 months in garrison (at home). We are now pulling 15 month deployments with 12 months in garrison (in the army). This is hardly enough time to reset our equipment and train up for our next mission.

Many soldiers are currently on their fourth deployment in less than 8 years. This is destroying military families. The divorce rate is astronomical. The suicide rate is unbelievable. The quality of the average soldier is deteriorating due to lax recruitment policies.

We have a strong core and we will come through this just as we did after Vietnam. However, in my opinion our forces need more "reset" time and would better be served in a decisive push in Afghanistan, before we lose all the gains we've made there.

Just my opinion, I'm sure someone will feel the need to rip it up, but hey...I do what I do so that you can do what you do.

=-)

Billman,...I can only salute your wonderful post. It's rare to get thoughtful information from someone in the military without an axe to grind. Your input is most appreciated. Rumsfield made major errors in planning this adventure. The expectations and realities had no coherence. The top of the line had to improvise. This left men/women on the ground with no mission. This dither continued for a long time. Patreas with Gates pushed through a plan, the surge. Evidently it has made things "better." In Afghanistan problems have bloomed. We have a forest fire called the Middle East. The whole place is a tinder box and now we understand all that blood and money were for oil. How the troops have been treated both in theatre and here at home is a scandal without peer. This administration has betrayed too much. I'm sure that the world has watched in horror as this unfolded. In the end it will all be resolved.

They seem an odd couple: the general who engineered President Bush's surge in Iraq, and the presidential candidate who has promised to undo it. But look again. Gen. David Petraeus's broad new agenda as the likely next commander of Central Command (CENTCOM), which oversees U.S. forces in the entire Middle East and Central Asia, seems to echo some of Barack Obama's views about the critical front in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Source

semantics..McCain's Hundred years quote.

Speaking of semantics only a liar would suggest that McCain's comments in that townhall meeting suggested that the United States keep fighting in Iraq for 100 years.

This whole primary and campaign has been out of context. Anyone can be made into a fool by snippets. The rush to define what was meant. It is insane. This is "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."

ok bill only a liar would say that murtha was dissing mccain the other day. only a liar would claim that obama is a muslim only a liar would calim that obamas dad is arab only a liar... lets see you get upset a bit at lies on your side their bill..

besides mccain has had seveal fauh paahs ont he 100 year remark.. he talks about when we come home isnt improtant.. just that the deaths decrease.. as if families like being stationed out of the us.
sure I'll grant you his comment was distorted, but he still doesn't get it.. we dotn want perm bases there . Still I expect you to be man enough to admit that this is taken out of context as were murtha words last night.

Big time. Maybe politics was better when the media were less immediate. The electorate who respond emotionally are on a run-away-train. They're being slammed wall to wall.

If he hadn't had the nerve to pose himself, arrogant, above the fray of the "old politics."
Imploding. The Wizard of Obama.

here is the real media at work.. condencing obams speech till it says something completely else.. and then statign that proves he is a flip flopper.. read the whole thing.. his polciy has not changed.

Wasn't this technique used against his primary opponent? Is it not being employed by his campaign at this time?

Scipio,...Where do you come up with this stuff?

It showed a grainy clip of Poshard giving a passionate speech, slowed to exaggerate his body movements and facial expressions.

So wait, what's the Hitler reference then?

That doesn't quite answer my question though!

I'm happy to say that I fully predicted all of this six months ago in my original article on this empty suit and I quote:

. . .Americans are always looking to politicians to apportion blame and save them -- much of the time from themselves as witnessed by the meltdown in the housing market much of which was driven by good, old-fashioned acquisitiveness and financial imprudence on the part of consumers. None of this is to say Barack Obama will or will not make a successful president if elected. But on his record there's not a lot to suggest he will other than, oddly enough for many of his newfound friends, his ability to successfully canoodle and cajole in the rough and tumble of Chicago and Illinois politics.

You just wait until the convention in Denver. You're going to see an extravaganza of Nuremburgesque proportions. Word reaches my ears that Barry and Co. are even thinking of moving the acceptance speech to Invesco Field which coincidentally (laugh, laugh) would occur on the 45th anniversary of MLK's "I Had A Dream" speech.

So many things are pouring into these funnels of emotion that we are experiencing the political equivalent of a black hole. The trick with black holes is we cannot predict what happens when the mass is absolutely compressed. These are the times of the dragon.
Will it be a bang or a whimper?

Nice, I had forgotten that one.

Bill,... Invesco Field holds 76,000 people. If they pay for it, will they come?

No doubt.

unlike mccain who has been stead fast on everythign from immigration to iraq to the tax cuts to abortions.. oh wait he hasnt.. LOL Hello Pot

you want to know whats fraudulent? how about supporting the secure fence act of 06 then turning around to meet with leaders of the Hispanic community who support amnesty. or how about supporting the immigration reform act the stating they should be allowed to seek legal status in a "humane and comprehensive fashion" through a program "they can count on and trust." Responding to a question about so-called H1-B visas for Silicon Valley workers, McCain said: "We have to attract the best and brightest minds. It isn't just H1-B visas. In our agricultural sector, they can't find workers as well. We need a temporary agriculture (worker) program."

killmyzombie,...I would like to see more coverage on these issues. I can go to journalists or I can read what people have to say.

we need cheap labor and in order to maintain cheap labor you must maintain policies which impoverish immigrants.

"CHANGE"my mind.

He will say whatever it takes to get there folks. Have any of you read his book. Or have any of you read "Inside the Third Reich", or "Meincomp?" You should read his book before you vote for him. You will be surprised.

neoconic name.. trolling trolling trolling.
lol.. seee that key that says caps lock.. get a screw driver and rip it off yoru keyboard.

Unusual rhetoric but funny as hell.

Stop yelling High Skool.

He's still a better choice than McCain, and much better than Bush. If only Bush would refine his ideas instead of focusing on refining other nation's oil.

If Obama keeps dissembling he will destroy the Democratic chances of winning. He had a movement and now it's splintering. Forget the Hillary renegades; he has splintered his base.

refining - a refined version of flip-flop

tinwhistler,...It's real hard to know what's going on. I can't see him handling the pressure. Still,
there is the convention. Some of the primary candidates have suspended their candidacy, not withdrawn. Maybe the convention will not be a coronation for either party.

Jade: I hope you are right. Neither party has offered us much in the way of a leader.

Yup

"...it's with the sort of unfiltered worthlessness that is coming in via MSNBC."

seconded!

MSNBC fairly tiptoed through the tulips with Barack. It was non stop Obamaland. Rachel Madow still stands guard lest any utterance from his lips be taken as anything but revelation.

I will not conspire.

Copiously. Happy fourth.

refining - an elegant form of scotching the snake.

Dude, any article or seed following any or all of the following talking points are guaranteed to garner you multiple votes and comments on the Vine thus increasing your earnings:

1) the 9/11 attacks were conceived and carried out by the Bush administration in league with the Project for a New American Century and abetted by the Israeli Mossad.

2) the Bush administration is the proximate American equivalent of Hitler's Germany.

3) the U.S. has plans for an "imminent" attack on Iran ("imminence" as defined on Newsvine may be expanded to include a period of up to five years).

I hope you will find these guidelines useful.

I keep forgetting about that whole earnings thing. I don't look to newsvine to make money, I look to it for intelligent discussion on newsworthy topics.

Of course, I suppose I could always supplement my rising fuel and food costs....hmmmm

=-D

Just follow my advice and you can probably count on the Vine to fill the tank of your SUV each month. ;>0 Thank god that in that respect I depend on Metro and shank's mare for the majority of my transportation needs.

Unfortunately there is no viable mass transit system where I live.

And bye the way, it is an SUV, but it's a little one (S-10 blazer). =-p

lol that's the 2rd time Hitler is injected in one day. Man, 'Viners are on a roll!

Obama's team? It was volunteers that weren't even on his payroll. Folks like you and me that have regular every day jobs but signed up to volunteer for a day.

Or the volunteers overstepped their boundaries and badly interpreted their job.