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HONOLULU — The Army says it's critical to saving the lives of wounded soldiers. Animal-rights activists call the training cruel and outdated.
Despite opposition by the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Army proceeded to shoot live pigs and treat their gunshot wounds in a medical trauma exercise Friday at Schofield Barracks for soldiers headed to Iraq.
Maj. Derrick Cheng, spokesman for the 25th Infantry Division, said the training was conducted as scheduled under a U.S. Department of Agriculture license and the careful supervision of veterinarians and a military Animal Care and Use Committee.
"It's to teach Army personnel how to manage critically injured patients within the first few hours of their injury," Cheng said.
The soldiers are learning emergency lifesaving skills needed on the battlefield when there are no medics, doctors or facility nearby, he said.
PETA, however, said there are more advanced and humane options available, including high-tech human simulators. In a letter, PETA urged the Army to end all use of animals, "as the overwhelming majority of North American medical schools have already done."
"Shooting and maiming pigs is outdated as Civil War rifles," said Kathy Guillermo, director of PETA's Laboratory Investigations Department.
The Norfolk, Va.-based group demanded the exercise be halted after it was notified by a "distraught" soldier from the unit, who disclosed a plan to shoot the animals with M4 carbines and M16 rifles.
"There's absolutely no reason why they have to shoot live pigs," PETA spokeswoman Holly Beal said.
The bloody exercise, she said, is difficult for soldiers because they sometimes associate the animals with their own pets.
Cheng said the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time. He had "no doubt whatsoever" in the effectiveness of the instruction, which he called the best option available at the base.
"Those alternative methods just can't replicate what the troops are going to face when we use live-tissue training," he said. "What we're doing is unique to what the soldiers are going to actually experience."
Cheng didn't have details about the number of pigs, how they were acquired or the weapons involved in the training.
The soldiers being trained are with the 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, which is deploying to Iraq this year.
"We understand (PETA's) concerns and point of view. At the same, the Army is committed to providing the soldiers with the best training possible," Cheng said.
PETA has instructed its 2 million members to inundate the Army with calls and e-mails.
"We are not going to let it drop," Guillermo said Friday. "We'll continue to press both Schofield and the Department of Defense for a ban on these trauma training exercises."
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- Public Discussion (22)
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1.7
{"commentId":2221014,"authorDomain":"mentalshift"}
Disgusting.
{"commentId":2221014,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"mentalshift"}
- 3 votes
#1 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:33 AM EDT{"commentId":2224363,"authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
Cheney, Rove, Bush, Kristoll, Wolfowitz and the like are all pro war tough guys - maybe they ought to volunteer...you know, help the cause.
{"commentId":2224363,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2228228,"authorDomain":"mentalshift"}
So why can't they get their training the way every doctor in the U.S. does?
Military nonsense.
{"commentId":2228228,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"mentalshift"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2221632,"authorDomain":"doubledoc"}
As a former Army Doc, I agree, shooting pigs is less than ideal. BUT, you do have to train troops...so why not use death row inmates??? This is a serious win-win situation for PETA and the taxpayers, and I'm sure most of the Conservative Churches would give a pass on it...
{"commentId":2221632,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"doubledoc"}
- 1 vote
#2 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:10 AM EDT{"commentId":2224358,"authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
yeah,
If you survive your sentence is commuted. Sorry about that colostomy bag...
{"commentId":2224358,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2222132,"authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
This is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard. Anyone who would participate in this "training activity" is without a soul.
It is absolutely unconscionable!
There are alternatives!! I taught in a nursing school where we had some fantastic manequins with life-like bodily functions and injuries.
These military leaders are more like pigs than the animals.
The military is absolutely ignoring the alternatives and for that I hope that, maybe we should have the military shoot them and treat their gun-shot wounds!!
{"commentId":2222132,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
- 2 votes
#3 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:06 AM EDT{"commentId":2223178,"authorDomain":"lizrainey"}
I agree with the death row inmate comment to a large degree. Pigs are highly intelligent creatures. If I was a soldier who witnesses this pointless shooting I'd be traumatized! Getting shot in battle is one thing, killing a pig for food swiftly and humanely is another, but just inflicting traumatic wounds on them for PRACTICE!!??
It has taken decades to bring more humane conditions to laboratories and slaughter houses - and now the military is turning around and starting the abuse all over??
Why not anesthetize the deciding general or major or whatever, shoot him or her and practice on them?? That would make sense to me!
{"commentId":2223178,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"lizrainey"}
- 2 votes
#4 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:53 PM EDT{"commentId":2223809,"authorDomain":"jay-9"}
Having gone through this training myself, I can ABSOLUTELY testify to its effectiveness in saving the lives of our soldiers. PETA is incorrect in claiming that there are alternative simulations available; there is simply NOTHING that can prepare a soldier for dealing with bleeding and breathing issues without doing it hands-on. When they have to immediately react to a wounded friend or brother in the battlefield, this training is the difference between life and death for that soldier. The killing of animals is horrible and grotesque but results have been proven to save many human lives and the federal government mandates that the animals feel NO pain and are constantly overseen by a veterinarian who provides intravenous anesthesia. I'm believe PETA's hearts are in the right place but their efforts are mis-guided and mis-informed in this case. But if you believe an animal's life is more valuable than a soldier's, no argument is going to sway that opinion. Just know that the animals are cared for and treated with the utmost respect for the sacrifice that they make for us.
{"commentId":2223809,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"jay-9"}
#5 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 PM EDT{"commentId":2223886,"authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
Sorry- but to me, a life is a life. A pig is a dog is a person. I could never kill anything intentionally. I wish that everyone felt the same way.
{"commentId":2223886,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2236005,"authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
But if you believe an animal's life is more valuable than a soldier's, no argument is going to sway that opinion.
This is just asinine. Way to take a complex subject and boil it down to: "you're either with us, or you're against us."
If we could all see black and white the world would be a much better place, don't ya think?
{"commentId":2236005,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2225987,"authorDomain":"mysticchick"}
Wow-
I'm shocked. Do they at least knock the pigs out with drugs first so they're not aware what is happening to them?
{"commentId":2225987,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"mysticchick"}
- 2 votes
#6 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:18 PM EDT{"commentId":2225997,"authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
I want to know if their hearts ache when they hear the animals cry out with fear and pain.
{"commentId":2225997,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2226243,"authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
Just wait, the "animals don't have feelings" folks are on their way. I think that how we treat life, any life, is a reflection of our humanity. To put these animals out there as living targets and to rationalize it under the pretense of "training", is absurd.
It's an immoral act, and I imagine the "brain" behind this is a sociopath, it's steeping the soldiers in some grotesque activity. The training will not make better soldiers, but it will make worse individuals.
{"commentId":2226243,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2226307,"authorDomain":"mysticchick"}
How long will it be until human targets are used? This is a slippery slope covered in blood!
{"commentId":2226307,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"mysticchick"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2234169,"authorDomain":"rnjhyer"}
One comment from this article trumps ALLJay-383376. The military must use the most realistic training possible to prepare troops for combat, if shooting pigs saves one human life so be it. The fact that we have simulators is great. It seems everyone is all for letting our militay commanders make the decisions concerning our troops until it steps on their sensibilites.
The comment about the soliders thinking of the pigs as their pets has to come from someone who has never been in a life of death situtation involving their friends. Comparing training a doctor to preparing someone for combat first aid is asinine. A doctor gets years of training and before they operate on their own and they are supervised for numerous procedures. Same for nurses.
The solider on the front lines does not have this luxury. the first person they see injured is their soilder in arms.
So before you start condeming the training method, talk to the people that got the training and find out if they think it works, and if they would do it all over again. This includes the ones that were hestiant about it in the first place.
{"commentId":2234169,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"rnjhyer"}
#7 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:53 PM EDT{"commentId":2234279,"authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
So all the South needed to do to win the Civil War was to shoot some pigs. Huh. I'm glad they didn't figure that out.
Come to think of it, it's a good thing the Germans didn't shoot training pigs...or the Japanese.
The Viet Cong must have shot pigs and the Iraqi Insurgents are very obviously doing it.
Do you think the Taliban are pig shooters?
{"commentId":2234279,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2234337,"authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
i love it!!!
{"commentId":2234337,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2234399,"authorDomain":"rnjhyer"}
I am not trying to change your views, just talk to the soliders, get their input, better yet join them;, and before you want me to do the same, already gave the military 20. No I never shot pigs.
Every war teaches us different techniques on treating wounds on the battlefield. One of the biggest reasons we have such a high level of seriously wounded soliders suviving in Iraq is the training the average soilder receives and the advances in medicine, if you have a better way to teach the soliders, go do it.
Bottom line I will always place a higher value on a human live than animal, and if the loss of a pig will save a solider that is dying for my country, SO BE IT.
{"commentId":2234399,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"rnjhyer"}
#8 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:29 PM EDT{"commentId":2234457,"authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
Animal cruelty is the first step toward emotional removal from murder. I did my honors thesis on the link between animal cruelty and domestic violence in college.
Would you know that Jeffrey Dahmer impaled dogs? Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz also tortured animals.
Albert Schweitzer said
"Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human lives".
Is this really what we should be driving into the psyche of Americans that are about to go off to war??
I said it before. A pig is a dog is a person. A life is a life. I'm sorry if I don't share your total disregard for the life of a defenseless animal. I, myself, have a soul.
{"commentId":2234457,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"jennifer-troupe"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2234476,"authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
No one's saying that the human life is worth less than an animal's. But shooting a pig isn't going to train anybody to do anything but shoot a damn pig. It's cruel and selfish...but I guess that's the new face of America, isn't it?
{"commentId":2234476,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2235597,"authorDomain":"dcmaughan"}
I have to agree and disagree with you both at the same time. Any of you who may have followed any of my postings in the past on other threads may very well know that I really do abhor animal torture. I do not like the inhumane treating of our less advanced species of animal life. However I do hunt and fish. I do view meat as part of my food supply. This is not inhumane. It is natural and part of the life cycle.
I have been involved with youth groups most of my adult life. I do feel it is part of a healthy society to volunteer to help our youth grow into responsible adults. In my many years helping with youth it has been my pleasure to teach many a young man and young woman how to hunt and fish. One lesson that never seems to allude me and always seems to amaze me is just how much a persons leans the first time they kill an animal. ( mind you, I am teaching how to hunt and fish and use the subject animal for food. Not just, in my view, senseless killing ) It is amazing how much more this person seems to respect life. It is an odd thing to watch someone realize that they just took a life. Many of the youth I work with have watch so much TV that there idea of what a gunshot wound is, to say the very least, very distorted and disturbing. They see the "bad guys" get shot and it usually takes them forever to die in a "Hollywood death seen". The see the "Good Guy" get shot and they put a band-aid on him and he gets up smiling and is right out there chasing the bad guy again. When they realize just what kind of damage a gunshot wound does it is amazingly eye opining for them. Most change their view of killing anything human or no. Most do not want to ever kill again. And I am proud to have taught what I feel is a very valuable lesson in life. Killing should not be taken lightly. And there is a really vast difference between sociopathic killing regardless of human or non human life, and the killing of a nonhuman life for food or to obtain the knowledge to save a human life. I think it has to be put into prospective. Not all killing of non-human life is justified. On the other hand not all of it is evil either.
I respect others views and opinions as to not killing or using non-human animals in anyway. I respect their right to try to persuade me to see their point of view. However I also expect them to respect my right to eat meat. Have a pair of leather cowboy boots or a leather belt. To have a wool blanket. Or to go horseback riding. There is no sin in this.
{"commentId":2235597,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"dcmaughan"}
- 1 vote
#9 - Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:04 AM EDT{"commentId":2235980,"authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
Wallruss,
I hear what you say, it's well thought out and sensible. Sounds like the kids you volunteer with are being taught some powerful life skills and obtaining real, as opposed to vicarious (T.V.), experience.
It is amazing how much more this person seems to respect life.
Turning pigs into "targets" is, from my standpoint, profoundly disrespectful. It sounds like an idea that someone picked up on a trip to a "hunting" ranch. To devalue life and, really, just wantonly kill, will do more damage than good - inspite of the "it's for a good cause" rationale.
That being said. I think livings thing should be treated with compassion or respect or both. I'm a meat eater. I wear leather boots and belt. I am also aware of how our distributed supply networks have done us all a great disservice (and outright weakened us - but that's another discussion) by putting distance between most of the population and the production of their food supply.
I used to fish. But then I spent a year in Alaska woking on processors. The scope of what was being taken from the waters; the number of boats processing fish that weren't even needed for food; and the poisons routinely dumped into the water made me feel ashamed. Knowing that's going on - I really can't bring myself to fish anymore.
As for hunting. I honestly have nothing against it. I don't do it myself and my reason is this: 6.7 billion people on the planet (and roughly 2000 tigers left in the wild) - most of them wanting to hunt in some fashion or another. If we had 1/3 the population we do now, I may take up the hunt. Again, this is my personal view and it informs why I don't hunt. I don't impose it on anyone.
It's interesting that when one argues compassion for animals that they are immediately tagged as an irrational PETA type. An aspersion that usually follows is "...values an animal more than a human" - it shows scant understanding of the much much larger issues involved (you did not do this, Wally, but it's an old stand-by of the counterpole).
{"commentId":2235980,"threadId":"315147","contentId":"1675787","authorDomain":"TacitusAndronicus"}
- 1 vote
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