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Georgia, Russia exchange war prisoners

Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:33 AM EDT
world-news, united-states, russia, associated-press, georgia, cold-war, nicolas-sarkozy, state-condoleezza-rice, dmitry-medvedev, south-ossetia, german-chancellor-angela-merkel, black-sea, international-court, mikhail-saakashvili, dmitri-medvedev, georgia-russia, russian-defense-ministry, georgia-interior-ministry, georgian-foreign-ministry, georgia-security-council, lado-gurgenidze
Christopher Torchia, Associated Press
Vasil Sikharulidze
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 171 photos
<p>An unidentified Georgian woman cries after finding out that her child was killed in a neighboring village, in the town of Gori, Georgia, just outside the breakaway province of South Ossetia, Monday, Aug. 11, 2008. Russia warned Monday that its troops in Georgia's breakaway province of Abkhazia will cross into the Georgian-controlled territory if Georgian troops in the area refuse to disarm. (AP Photo/Sergei Grits)</p>

An unidentified Georgian woman cries after finding out that her child was killed in a neighboring village, in the town of Gori, Georgia, just outside the breakaway province of South Ossetia, Monday, Aug. 11, 2008. Russia warned Monday that its troops in Georgia's breakaway province of Abkhazia will cross into the Georgian-controlled territory if Georgian troops in the area refuse to disarm. (AP Photo/Sergei Grits)

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GORI — Russia and Georgia on Tuesday exchanged prisoners captured during their brief war, a move that may reduce tensions and, Georgia hopes, hasten the promised withdrawal of Russian troops.

Georgian Security Council head Alexander Lomaia said the swap, which initially had been planned for Monday, removes any pretext for Russians to hold positions in Igoeti. The village is the closest that Russian forces have advanced to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, about 30 miles away.

But a Russian defense official indicated Tuesday that a complete withdrawal from Georgia proper was not imminent.

"Rear units, as well as second- and third-echelon units are being pulled back first. The vanguard units will be pulled back at the final stage," Col. Igor Konashenkov, a spokesman for Russia's land forces, was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency.

Russia announced Monday that it had begun to pull back forces under terms of a cease-fire agreement, but as of Tuesday morning there was no sign of significant movement in Igoeti or in the nearby strategically key city of Gori.

Tuesday's prisoner exchange, witnessed by Lomaia and Russian Maj. Gen. Vyacheslav Borisov, included 15 Georgians and five Russians, Lomaia said.

"It went smoothly, he said.

The swap began when two Russian military helicopters landed in Igoeti. Two people in stretchers were unloaded and handed over to Georgian officials.

Georgian ambulances later brought two people to the scene and took them to the Russian helicopters. One was on a gurney.

Russian troops last week drove Georgian forces out of the Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia, where Georgia on Aug. 7 launched a heavy artillery barrage.

With Western leaders anxiously watching for a withdrawal and puzzling over how to punish Moscow for what they called a disproportionate reaction to the Georgian offensive, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev defended Russia's actions and warned against any aggression.

"Anyone who tries anything like that will face a crushing response," he said Monday.

On the ground, the lack of troop movement raised questions about whether Russia was fulfilling its part of the cease-fire meant to end the short but intense war that has stoked tension between a resurgent Russia and the West.

Russian troops restricted access to Gori, where most shops were shut and people milled around on the central square with its statue of the Soviet dictator and native son Josef Stalin.

"The city is a cold place now. People are fearful," said Nona Khizanishvili, 44, who fled Gori a week ago for an outlying village and returned Monday, trying to reach her son in Tbilisi.

Four Russian armored personnel carriers, each carrying about 15 men, rolled Monday afternoon from Gori to Igoeti, a crossroads town even closer to Tbilisi.

Georgia's Rustavi-2 television showed footage of a Russian armored vehicle smashing through a group of Georgian police cars barricading the road to Gori on Monday. One of the cars was dragged along the street by the Russian armor. Georgian police stood by without raising their guns.

Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said Russian forces had blown up the runway at a base in the western city of Senaki on Monday. There was no confirmation from Russian military officials.

Russian troops and tanks have controlled a wide swath of Georgia for days, including the country's main east-west highway where Gori sits. The Russian presence essentially cuts the small Caucasus Mountains nation in half.

It also threatens pro-Western President Mikhail Saakashvili's efforts to keep his country from falling apart after the war bolstered the chances of South Ossetia and another Russian-backed separatist region, Abkhazia, of remaining free of Georgian rule.

According to the European Union-brokered peace plan signed by both Medvedev and Saakashvili, both sides are to pull forces back to the positions they held before the fighting broke out.

But the deputy chief of the Russian general staff, Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said the Russian troops were pulling back to South Ossetia and a security zone defined by a 1999 agreement of the "joint control commission." The commission had been nominally in charge of South Ossetia's status since it split from Georgia in the early 1990s.

Georgian and Russian officials could not immediately clarify the dimensions of the security zone, but Georgian government documents suggest it extends more than four miles into Georgia beyond the administrative border of South Ossetia.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy — who brokered the cease-fire deal — has said the operations it permits by Russian peacekeepers until an international mechanism is in place cannot be conducted beyond the "immediate proximity of South Ossetia."

___

Associated Press writers David Nowak, Jim Heintz and Steve Gutterman in Moscow and Bela Szandelszky in Senaki, Georgia, contributed to this report.

© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (87)
Peter Merel

"The security of our peacekeepers and civilians has been restored," the President said in a nationally televised statement. "The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized."

That's a war. Their country is ready before they are attacked. They go in hard, they end the threat for good, they show you can't fsck with them, and then they turn around and go home.

What we're doing in Iraq is not a war. It's something else.

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:00 AM EDT
Jonathan D. Miller

and then they turn around and go home.

Except, of course, for the fact that the Russians have not left yet.

Their country is ready before they are attacked.

Hmm... that seems awful suspicious to me. Seems more likely that the Russians instigated this, and their use of force was far exceeded what was necessary in this conflict. They should not have stepped out of the rebel province, and the bombings of Gori and Tbilisi were completely unnecessary. Just more evidence of a strong handed Russia trying to assert its dominance in the region.

I hope the repercussions for the Russians is swift and severe.

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:09 AM EDT
Ineluki

hmm... i have to tell you something.
i was chasing this war since 9 AM 08.08.08 (GMT +3). i was maniacally looking both at BBC, CNN, The Washington Post and at russian news portals. and do you know what did i see? i saw that CNN-type newsletters turned the day into the night. do you think that "Grad", a massive destruction unit, was used by russian force? do you think that russian army could attack the location, where most civilians have russian passports?
the conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia (Ossetia is under georgian government, but it wishes freedom).
mr. Saakashvili said he will NEVER use arms against this region. and under the coverage of night from 07.08.08 to 08.08.08 he broke this promise, he broke the Olympic peacekeeping, he broke everything was possible.
whether he would attack just military objects, that would still be understood. but attacking the nation... i don`t think so. in one night he turned into ruins Tskhinvali (including schools, hospitals, sleeping civilians, everything) and 10 nearby settlements.
while at russian portals the news about this war were coming one after another, The Wasington Post just posted a small test about russian aggression.
by the way, Vladimir Putin took a speech recently, and compared there S.Hussein and M.Saakashvili. this speech was posted by BBC, and an important line was deleted there. as usually. the "Iron Curtain" returns.

  • 2 votes
#1.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 AM EDT
Reply
AlphaOmega

Russia's foreign minister, meanwhile, said that Georgia's president must leave office and Georgian troops should stay out of the pro-Russian South Ossetia region for good.

I'm considering becoming a Russian!

  • 7 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:30 AM EDT
Alexander Parusov

Journalists distorted information. The idea was, that for Georgian nation better will be if their inadequate president leave office. Russia's foreign minister distinctly sad, that we do not have idea to press Georgia nation to dismiss there president.

  • 1 vote
#2.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:38 AM EDT
AlphaOmega

I'm sorry but I don't understand your post. Regardless it is good that we are not looking at a WW3

  • 2 votes
#2.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:50 AM EDT
ComSen

I'm considering becoming a Russian!

It's clear that Russia assaults and spreads lies about any neighbor country that does not agree with them. Is that the kind of person you are?

  • 2 votes
#2.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:26 AM EDT
Alex Golovanov

It's clear that Russia assaults and spreads lies about any neighbor country that does not agree with them. Is that the kind of person you are?

You base that on controversial information coming out of Georgia. They can't even stick to the same story. Even the US advisers, looking at the satellite images, are wondering why do Georgians say such nonsense. Georgian government just keeps making stories up as they go.

I find it ridiculous that most of the western media shown such great support for controversial news coming from Georgian side.

One thing Georgia and western media are not denying, and that is wiping out a whole city with heavy artillery.

  • 4 votes
#2.4 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:26 AM EDT
Mike, Just Mike

>>It's clear that Russia assaults and spreads lies about any neighbor country that does not agree with them.

It's absolutely clear that U.S. does exactly what you just said and even more.

What can we see?
08.08.2008: Georgians started bombing and then invaded South Osethian capital Tskhinvali where were Russian peacekeepers and where lots of Russian citizens live. Russian troops entered South Osethia and helped Osethians to take back control over Tskhinvali and to protect Russian citizens.

But what can we see at CNN? "Russians invaded Georgia". No comments.... :(

And you are who telling about "lies"??

  • 3 votes
#2.5 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:44 PM EDT
AlphaOmega

I was watching the Russians interact and essentially living in the day in what to me looked like what I would expect in the USA. Since all governments are corrupt Russia didn't seem that much different. The Russians are a population of about 150,000,000 and it does not appear that the Russians that were watching the solar eclipse wanted any more than you or I. I can debate this while divorcing myself from national loyalty. Here I am not betraying my nation only the lies of my nation.

The USA has made it commonplace to establish Puppet Regimes all over the world that include Georgia. The game for the USA is to antagonize all of the other nations wile pimping for China. Seeking energy dependence through other nations resources and empire building for of all things global government. Since the US has 1000 soldiers and over 103 advisors it looks like the USA intends to have Vietnam 2.

    #2.6 - Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:28 AM EDT
    Reply
    henry1966

    Let us not forget about the fact that is not Medvedev who is pulling the strings here..............It is still Vladimir Poetin. Medvedev is only a political play toy of his strategy!!

    • 1 vote
    Reply#3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:00 AM EDT
    Babel Fish

    Chess can be complicated. The prize being control of this area's oil and gas supply, being once again pipelines. These must not be cut off if your making money out of oil and gas. Or am I getting muddled up with the game of monopoly.

    Civilian's are expendable in this high priced game.

    • 2 votes
    #3.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:19 AM EDT
    Reply
    Zeebrohh

    I am looking at some of these posts and people are applauding war, and one person wanted to become Russian. WHY? What was so wonderful about this? And if you want to become Russian AlphaOmega then why don't you bring some reality to your fantasy?

    Henry you are right. Putin is pulling all the strings. Interesting considering he was supposed to leave office after his last term. How do you "pro-Russian" people justify that?

    • 2 votes
    Reply#4 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:45 AM EDT
    Peter Merel

    There is nothing wonderful about war. Hundreds, perhaps thousands have died in Georgia leaving millions to mourn.

    We Americans can smile on such a terrible thing because the fighting was short, necessary, defensive, and tactically focused. Our Iraq war is illegal and idiotic. We spent trillions of dollars we don't have to purchase a holocaust for a tyrant. As a nation we feel deeply confused and ashamed of ourselves.

    So, despite the horror of war, we can envy Russia its competence and self-restraint.

    • 3 votes
    #4.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:16 AM EDT
    Babel Fish

    I have a history of writing about US global oil strategy maybe you may like to read my view on this chess game saga.

    Get your hand off that red button Bush

    There's a link to a very interesting article (well I think its interesting) about Bush's history in this Global Oil strategy

    • 1 vote
    #4.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:17 AM EDT
    Picaso

    Why do you anti-Russian people always impose your ideology of the USA governance as the moral yardstick for other countries to judge/determine ones ideology or way or rule? Who are you to judge?
    Yet everyone wonders why there is a war? Going about preaching your idea of democracy and when there is a war thousands of people die? Way less as to when there was no war. Yet i don't hear any preaching to the Saudi's.

    • 3 votes
    #4.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:23 AM EDT
    Eraser-412094

    Well, this is natural, Russia can only do bad things. When I ask, "Why bad?", you answer "Because Putin!" When Putin will die, all Russia's haters , 30 years will be talk about "bad Putin" with a view to Russia. This stupid, to associate the whole country with one person.
    Is Russian laws prohibit the Prime Minister have an influence on the President and heavy political weight? Of course, this situation is not very good for Russian democracy, but there is nothing illegal. While Putin after became prime minister, has never exceeded its powers, limited the Russian constitution.
    I am not supporter of Putin, and had never voted for him, but it is necessary to distinguish between his real mistakes and neocons fantasies .

    • 2 votes
    #4.4 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:37 AM EDT
    Babel Fish

    Who are you to judge?

    I am a world citizen, not one of the sheep a free thinker and a citizen journalist. I look at both sides of the coin and make cool clear judgement not effected by politics or religion. But analytic logic.

    Certainly not an American or Russian and someone that does not live in my own country or tied to its ideology or effected by its political indoctrination.

    I am the Babel Fish, lol

    • 1 vote
    #4.5 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:43 AM EDT
    Reply
    ComSen

    I just read in Aviation Week that Russia was trying to spread the story that Ukraine had sold Georgia anti-aircraft missiles which AW says is clearly not true. Remember that the Ukraine is the country that Russia poisoned their eventual leader because he favored ties with the west.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#5 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:28 AM EDT
    Jonathan D. Miller

    To me its clear that the true aggressor in this conflict was Russia.

    • 3 votes
    #5.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:12 AM EDT
    ComSen

    I have a tendency to feel that if it's something Russia is against (like the missile defense system for Europe), then perhaps that's something we need to proceed with. The opposite is true as well (Russia thinks it's great for Iran to have a nuclear reactor).

    • 3 votes
    #5.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
    Picaso

    I have a tendency to feel that if it's something Russia is against (like the missile defense system for Europe), then perhaps that's something we need to proceed with. The opposite is true as well (Russia thinks it's great for Iran to have a nuclear reactor).

    Yea but you forget the fact Russian really doesn't care about Iran, as the foreign minister said, give us Kosovo we will give you Iran, so that cancels that out. The Russian protest about the Nuclear Shield, it goes un-answered, then the Russians create ICBM, and other stealth missiles (rendering the missile shields useless against Russia if i might add) and yet the US complains? What on earth where they expecting? A cookie and a glass of milk?

    My only fear is that Russia doesn't sell all these things to hardliners, because the way i see it, if they are pushed they might as well give them to highest bidders for tons of cash to offset oil troubles.

    This no more becomes an arms war to defend but also to sell to get money and "survive"

    • 1 vote
    #5.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
    Mike, Just Mike

    >>To me its clear that the true aggressor in this conflict was Russia.

    Oh yeah, you're right. It was Russia who started bombing the capital of South Osethia. It was Russia who started shooting the peacekeepers.... Man, are you serious?? Can you see something else, not just what CNN tells you?

    Just imagine: there is Georgia (like Serbia), there is South Osethia in it (like Kosovo in Serbia), there are Russian peacekeepers in South Osethia (like American peacekeepers in Kosovo). And now imagine that Serbia started bombing Kosovo and shooting American peacekeepers. Are you going to say that USA will not shoot back? Are you kidding??

    • 3 votes
    #5.4 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:13 PM EDT
    Reply
    RENEA1

    Bush was told about Georgia,s plans to take back the disputed area in South Odessa back in April. Bush did warn Georgia not to take this action. So this action was no surprise to Bush.Ian Traynor of Guardian UK laid out the story this little chess match called Putin's second war yesterday.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#6 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:45 AM EDT
    Babel Fish

    And now it seems that Russia is not halting but still advancing on to the capital and bombing especially the oil pipes.

      #6.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:32 AM EDT
      TL1

      And again that already appeared to be a lie: no Russian troops were seen near Tbilisi and the pipe is safe & sound.

      • 2 votes
      #6.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:45 PM EDT
      Babel Fish

      Its obviously Georgian propaganda that media and some of us have been swallowing. We are not flies on the wall.

      • 1 vote
      #6.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:12 PM EDT
      Reply
      MRZK.COM

      I really don't think anyone coordinates much with our fearless leader.

      Most amazing to me is Bush calling for their restraint.

      This is the cost of taking the low ground of preemptive strikes Mr. President. If there was any chance they MIGHT have listened, you squandered this high ground during your mis-administration as well.

        Reply#7 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:00 AM EDT
        Lotto

        There was no immediate comment from the United States.

        This is a good thing, anything coming from the White House will have the same old ring to it. A busy signal, or a message I'm on vacation. As before, with the intelligence gathering capabilities of the United States, this should have lite up the boards, long before it happened. Bush could have been informed, (probably was), picked up a phone, called Saakashvili, and said hey Mikhail, back off, Russia will open a can of wipe ass on you. Not to sound harsh or cold, but why would Saakashvili, even attempt to face down Russia ? Politics, Politicians, it's hard to believe any side of the story, whats Propaganda, whats the truth ? We know there has never been a United States President tell a lie, so it must be all Russian Propaganda, BS.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#8 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:01 AM EDT
        ComSen

        this should have lite up the boards, long before it happened

        How do you know this wasn't the case, because it wasn't in the NY Times?

        • 1 vote
        #8.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:19 AM EDT
        Picaso

        How do you know this wasn't the case, because it wasn't in the NY Times?

        http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gj_jyRnqBYekXz2MyszBj6k_ZMtw

          #8.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:54 PM EDT
          Lotto

          I'm saying it did light up the boards, and everyone that knew about it sat on their thumbs. This administration is very quick to point fingers, past and present. The criticism of China, they still bring up Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, yet no one mentions Kent State shootings, 1970. There was a mention of wishing the 60's protests back, it would be good for this country, I disagreed. I now think it would be a good idea to test our freedoms like we did in the 60's. What would Bush do if "We The People" stood up to all the wrongs he's done since his appointment? What would happen if a few million went to Washington in protest ? Cindy Sheehan tried,

          While Bush ignored her, the vigil made her one of the most prominent figures among opponents of the war.

          Bush needs to be held accountable for his @!$%# up's and cover ups. Russia has it's own to be accountable for.

          • 1 vote
          #8.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
          Reply
          henry1966

          Eraser, you are using the word ' democracy in Russia' in your comment. Since when was or is Russia a democracy???

          Sure, for the outside world it may seem like that but still freedom of speech is prohibited ( think about the opposition during their elections) and only one man rules that country, Vladimir Putin. Don't underestimate his power and when our own country will not spend time, money and logical thinking maybe our democracy will decrease.......or is that already going on, hidden communism in The USA???

            Reply#9 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:26 AM EDT
            Eraser-412094

            Henry, Russian democracy is still young. Freedom of the press in Russia exists, it is suppressed not by the Government, but self-censorship of the media. In many ways, these problems are caused by sustained Soviet mentality. However, no ban on travelling abroad and censorship of the Internet.
            In a country such as Russia, democracy is still not soon become stable. But even a democratic Russia will not abandon country's interests for sake of friendship with the United States.
            Yes, the opposition have obvious problems with the press, and the main problem - they are not popular and TV channels do not want to spoil their ratings. Unfortunately in the minds of the Russians, a liberal opposition to Putin's regime, synonymous with the chaos in Russia in 90s. Therefore, any criticism of Putin's government is perceived as criticism of a good life and wealth.
            A liberal opposition now has no chance to win the votes of Russian voters. They will have to cooperate with Putin's centrists, and gradually gaining popularity.

              #9.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:25 AM EDT
              Eraser-412094

              When Russia established a strong democracy, it will be very similar to the US. Russia also will send its troops to establish democracy abroad, support loyal tyrants, commit illegal covert ops, talk about superiority and global leadership.
              Russians and Americans are actually very similar.

                #9.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:30 AM EDT
                Alex Golovanov

                Sure, for the outside world it may seem like that but still freedom of speech is prohibited ( think about the opposition during their elections) and only one man rules that country, Vladimir Putin.

                You must be joking me. There IS almost complete freedom of speech, very much like it is in the US. Please, do tell what happened during the election that you think was anti-democratic.

                • 1 vote
                #9.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
                Skal

                Please, do tell what happened during the election that you think was anti-democratic.

                Putin continued on as Prime Minister, essentially making Medvedev a puppet president and continuing Putin's rule.

                I would say not giving up power is pretty anti-democatic.

                But those are just my thoughts on the matter.

                  #9.4 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:45 PM EDT
                  Ineluki

                  But hmm... why did I think, that the mean of the Republic is a face of the country (just the face, not the ruler) - the President, and a Government (the Parliament, if you wish), that is to rule. And the Prime Minister is the head of the Parliament. So, we never had the President as the ruler, even if it looked so.

                    #9.5 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:52 PM EDT
                    Alex Golovanov

                    Putin continued on as Prime Minister, essentially making Medvedev a puppet president and continuing Putin's rule.

                    Yes, it does look a bit odd. Most of the Russian people knew this would happen if they elected Medvedev, yet the vast majority did just that. There where plenty of candidates to chose from, by the way. Although there are no such massive public campaigns as there are in the US. Anyway, Russian people adore Putin, but not without a reason - he brought the country up from its knees. As far as freedom of speech goes, I've not seen any restrictions.

                      #9.6 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:08 PM EDT
                      TL1

                      For me Russia is 300% democratic. There is freedom of speech, there are no political repressions and etc., and just every sane person I know likes Putin and Medvedev and supports all of their actions (including what they do in war with Georgia). Can you say the same about your country?

                        #9.7 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:40 PM EDT
                        Skal

                        I can say the same thing about Germany in 1938...

                        If everyone is thinking the same thing, then somebody isn't thinking. It's the fact that we don't support all of the government's actions that defines a democracy.

                          #9.8 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
                          Alex Golovanov

                          I can say the same thing about Germany in 1938...

                          If Russia starts WW3, you can say to everyone - I told you so. Meanwhile, enjoy a short movie.

                          • 1 vote
                          #9.9 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:00 PM EDT
                          TL1

                          Opposition and critics do exist (of course). It's just they are minority. And I disagree with you that "thinking the same way" is any bad. There are so many situations when something is obviously a good or bad thing for most people. For example, how many people you think would answer "yes" to a question: "Should a country protect its soldiers and civilians, and allies, and revenge for their deaths and suffering?"

                            #9.10 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:26 PM EDT
                            Skal

                            *looks at the Iraq War* ... not many ^_^

                            Terrible come-back I know, but I'm a little brain dead from work and that's the best I got at the moment.

                              #9.11 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:29 PM EDT
                              Zeebrohh

                              It isn't a democracy AT ALL! Henry1966 you are right. I don't know what planet some of these other people are living on, but everything I have read about Russia is that:

                              1. Putin didn't want any competition when he paved the way for his favorite PUPPET to get into office.
                              2. He controlled the media, so that the ONLY thing people ever heard was about his Unity or Union Russia party.
                              3. He threatened or scared off anybody that would dare attempt to run against his party, and made it near impossible for them to run a viable campaign.
                              4. He made it seem that voting his way was a natural, and more importantly an inevitable choice for all the citizens.
                              5. He ran out of the country or killed any journalist or other persons that dare bring any criticisms against him or the party.

                              Democracy my @$$... These people on this thread are TRULY BLIND.

                              You all are so sensitive about someone offending Russia that you can't bring yourselves to admit even the most blatant mistakes and wrongs it is committing.

                              Even now as Russia blasts away at a country that wants to be left alone, these people on this thread find reasons why it is ALL GEORGIA'S fault.

                                #9.12 - Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:30 AM EDT
                                Alex Golovanov

                                Zeebrohh, while some of these points are valid (1, 4), others are just pure speculation. People know exactly what happened - we know who the real boss is. Many are not happy about this, but at this point in time, it's probably the best way to stabilize the country.

                                As for the democracy, our democracy is not the same as yours, get over it. It's impossible for our country to be like yours, for millions of reasons. The country is still very young and has not matured yet. There are too many things to be addressed in our developing economics and politics. Russia is not perfect, by any means, but we are a democratic nation.

                                I cannot say the same for Georgia and their president, who is also a puppet, but an American one. Who shut down all of the Russian media, so his people wouldn't see the other side of the story. Please, don't tell me that Georgia is a democratic country and the US's only motive is supporting it, because it's oh so great.

                                  #9.13 - Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:59 AM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  MRZK.COM

                                  While the Chinese laugh and prosper.

                                    Reply#10 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:00 PM EDT
                                    Babel Fish

                                    But China and the USA chess game is being played, you see if this race needs to prosper more they need oil and gas being pumped through Afghanistan. Its going to take ten or so years before their own oil and gas is completely on line so they are self sufficient.

                                    USA global oil supply plan is in place but Georgia has kind of slipped through the fingers to Russia. EU of course wants this Georgian oil pipe line to feed oil and the price of supply low. Notice the current president has slipped into Moscow for coffee break.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:23 PM EDT
                                    Alex Golovanov

                                    It's only a pipeline, Georgia doesn't control the price of oil that passes through it - they only collect transit fees, which are nominal.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:31 PM EDT
                                    Red Hawk

                                    They can disrupt it at anytime Alex, I think that is the issue.

                                      #10.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:50 PM EDT
                                      Babel Fish

                                      Red Hawk exactly.

                                      Alex I realize that this is not all to do with oil, but the Russian Georgian's wish to have a separate state and the attack on the new states capital. The problem is that Russia had to kill two birds with one stone. The oil pipes gave more importance to the issue, what happens if a government takes complete control and ups the transit fees?

                                      Of course Russia was ready to take action and they are not innocent as they want to have control of all the Caspian oil and gas supply. USA wants to control all the world supply it all part of the Oil War's.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #10.4 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:29 PM EDT
                                      Reply
                                      Skal

                                      Am I the only one that thinks the body guards in photo #2 need to loose a little weight?

                                      Maybe that's just me.

                                        Reply#11 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:07 PM EDT
                                        Ineluki

                                        Referring to all the people who look only through American press.

                                        I was chasing this war since 9 AM 08.08.08 (GMT +3), and that`s what I see now: BBC, CNN, The Washington Post and other European and American newsletters say, that Russians started the war.
                                        I want you to think logically. Why shall Russian commandement use mass demolition units ("Grad") against Russian citizens? Most of Ossetians have Russian passports. Georgia has an old conflict with Ossetia since Ossetia (and Abkhasia aswell) wants to be an independent republic. Doesn`t it looks suspicious: USA, Turkey, Israel aided Georgia to train and equip the army, the military budget of Georgia increased by 20 or 30, Georgia had very close contacts with USA, and these contacts could be used for coverage since the war against USA inavoidably leads to WW3. Besides, the US has the right of the veto in UN.
                                        Further. In case of Russian attack, how can the fact of humanitarian cargo sending be explained. Look: Georgia didn`t help Ossetia anyway, while the refugees from Ossetia run to Russia and find there help, mobile hospitals? At this time Russian humanitarian vehicles arrive to demolited Tskhinvali and give food and medicines to the survivors, who can`t escape since Georgian snipers and grenade launchers keep the road to Russia in their sight and open fire on anything moving there. Russia is ready to receive the refugees in its camps and even in the private flats. Russia sends nearly 400 million dollars for Ossetia restoration.
                                        Further. The survivors say that the Georgians attacked. I think that the voice of the eyewitness is more authoritive, than a bunch of signs on the paper...
                                        About Russian air strikes. Only 3 military airbases were attacked, and during this action only 3 people were killed. This is how the war must be led. The airplanes based on these bases could grind the humanitarian caravans if they would be able to take off.
                                        About Saakashvili`s visit to Gori. He could have just a hallucination, since he uses powerful psychotropic medicines, and it is seen on his demi-mad face. Some sources say that he tried to commite a suicide, but this cannot be proved.
                                        And finally: Georgia prevents Russian tourists from leaving the cities of their being. The police does not let them to move to borders of Armenia and Turkey and to Tbilisi. Actually, they are kept as the hostages.
                                        Do you think that is not enough?

                                        • 2 votes
                                        Reply#12 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:42 PM EDT
                                        Red Hawk

                                        So the Georgian leader tried the snot nosed antics of bush43, cuz he thought bush was going to back him up, and he got his azz kicked.

                                        Lesson #1) do not trust gwb jr
                                        Lesson #2) tease the big dog, expect to get bit

                                        I hope he feels good about all of the loss of innocent life because of his arrogant rogue actions.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#13 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
                                        Red Hawk

                                        Georgia sits on a strategic oil pipeline carrying Caspian crude to Western markets bypassing Russia, has long been a source of contention between the West and a resurgent Russia, the dominant energy supplier to Europe. The British oil company BP shut down one of three Georgian pipelines as a precaution, although the company said it had no evidence the pipelines had suffered damage.

                                        Whew, at first I was thinking that there may have been a loss of oil. Thank god!

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#14 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:37 PM EDT
                                        The Unknown Furry

                                        I, personally, have no trust whatsoever in Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, nor in President Dmitry Medvedev. Given Putin's employment history, the level of armed response, and the fact that this conflict was almost completely (on the order of 99.999...%) one-sided, this smells of a KGB/FSB black-op.

                                        Welcome to the 21st Century, home of the rebirth of the Soviet state. May God help us all.

                                          Reply#15 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
                                          TL1

                                          Why are you saying so? Didn't USSR and USA fight together in the greatest war ever? Did USSR ever do anything similar to what happens in Iraq, or performed a genocide? Did it ever attack US?
                                          Now, Russia is absolutely in a defensive position. World changed very much, and it seems to me that all serious wars now are about natural resources. Russia has plenty of resources of all kinds, and it has no reason to fight unless it is necessary for self-defense.
                                          As for your "KGB" and "one-sided conflict" words, I don't even want to comment that.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.1 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
                                          truth-414255

                                          haste makes waste! Russia respects USA! Russian people is people of good will!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.2 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:06 PM EDT
                                          The Unknown Furry

                                          With all due respect, times were different then, and we didn't know how relations with the Soviet Union would turn out. Besides, we had a common enemy in the form of Nazi Germany. As they say, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

                                          Also, were Russia indeed fighting in self-defense, that would imply that Georgian forces made strikes into sovereign Russian territory or directly decided to . Do you have satellite surveillance photos or other unfallable battlefield intelligence that can prove with 100% accuracy that such an event did indeed occur?

                                          Please, study the Cold War. The USSR didn't attack us directly, but there were engagements fought through satellite nations and forces. Many a mistake from that era has resurfaced to our dismay, most notably in the form of Al-Qaeda. Remember, though, that even without a declared state of war, they were indeed our enemy.

                                          truth-414255: Prove that I know absolutely nothing. I dare you. Present infallable evidence or quit spamming this article with useless comment replies.

                                            #15.3 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:28 PM EDT
                                            Ineluki

                                            So, you require infallable evidence? I know the site, where the refugees say how it was. And by the way, where is your evidence of Russian aggression?

                                            P.S. The Tribunal of Gaaga will get it on, I hope.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #15.4 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:12 AM EDT
                                            The Unknown Furry

                                            I have no evidence, and even if I were involved in photointelligence work, I would be prevented from releasing such evidence. Just walk away understanding that nowhere did I say - and I will NOT say - I was absolutely right and that you (or anyone supporting the opposite point of view) are completely and utterly wrong.

                                            Let's let this one work its way through. We're on what now, day seven of this conflict? Let's just see how this plays out - then well see if Russia's truly gone back to the Great Bear, or if Georgia did indeed light the match.

                                              #15.5 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:18 PM EDT
                                              Stilgar_d

                                              2 The Unknown Furry:
                                              With all the respect to your opinion I would like to mention the fact that
                                              there were Georgian troops who invaded Southern Ossetia on 08/08/08 AT NIGHT, on the SLEEPING CITY, and they were definitely attacking NON-MILITARY objects
                                              there are more than 2000 civilians dead right on the 08/08/08... and there will be much more after they found all the coffins...

                                              Please consider all that before you post that Russians are aggressors...

                                                #15.6 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                truth-414255

                                                Why georgia lie to face of the world? Why georgia did not tell about people which georgias soldiers incinerated? Too many people ... too many children ... too many old peoples ... It had not been showed to you! It was so! They executed ossetians children, by shooting back of the head! It saw many people!

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#16 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:52 PM EDT
                                                truth-414255

                                                USA must to help To Russia punish georgias criminals! USA must be fair , frendship with Russia is better than liar Ssakashvill! God will not forgive this terrible man!

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#17 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:00 PM EDT
                                                truth-414255

                                                Americans should to know russians much better! What do you know about them? Only that you saw on tv set. And you say 'May God help us all"? You know absolutely nothing! You are mistaken and confuse other!

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#18 - Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
                                                Mike, Just Mike

                                                Oh, some more news from Georgia: 50 Russian tanks are in Gori city. That's what Georgians claim.
                                                But correspondents of Agence France-Press disproved that, saying that there are only several light armored vehicles outside the city.

                                                Make your own illations....

                                                • 2 votes
                                                Reply#19 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:40 AM EDT
                                                Skal

                                                If we have satellites that can take a photo of just about anywhere at any given time, you would think that could be proven or disproven rather quickly.

                                                  #19.1 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:52 AM EDT
                                                  Picaso

                                                  If we have satellites that can take a photo of just about anywhere at any given time, you would think that could be proven or disproven rather quickly.

                                                  Same thing i was arguing about, but we hear nothing from the US, hence my suspicion the US is playing favorite or has something to do with this.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #19.2 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:13 AM EDT
                                                  Alex Golovanov

                                                  Saakashvilli is feeding people lies, one after another, yet western media reports them without further investigation. Lies and deception - is that what western democracy is all about these days?

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  #19.3 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Gabriel-

                                                  If Russia is consider a big and powerful invading country to Georgia, what is Georgia to the Jehovah's Witnesses who are being viciously beaten and harassed in the country for their religious beliefs?
                                                  How does the international community view Georgia's failure to stop the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses? To view more info. try this

                                                    Reply#20 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:14 PM EDT
                                                    Babel Fish

                                                    Any links to prove this persecution?

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #20.1 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:51 PM EDT
                                                    The Unknown Furry

                                                    Ignore this; it's a copypasta comment that's made its way onto multiple stories relating to the "South Ossetian War" and has always been posted by this individual.

                                                    Gabriel-: If you're reading this, write a story about it and post it to Newsvine. Otherwise, don't clog other stories with the same thing.

                                                      #20.2 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:18 PM EDT
                                                      Babel Fish

                                                      Knowing the history about Georgia, is important in understanding the present problem.

                                                      Ethnic cleansing seeming has an history - Its shameful

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #20.3 - Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:46 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      Ineluki

                                                      Is anyone disagree with me when I say, that Ossetia wants to be an independent unit?

                                                      Then you must be agree that Georgia doesn`t want to let it be, right?

                                                      So why do you support Georgia, who doen`t let this land to obtain the independence, if you are proud of your own independence so much?

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      Reply#21 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:37 PM EDT
                                                      Babel Fish

                                                      well said

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #21.1 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:06 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      Mike, Just Mike

                                                      If you want to listen to the truth, listen to the people who were there. Go to youtube.com and start search with "fox news 12 year old girl".
                                                      Facts: when the girl was trying to tell that it was Georgia who was bombing Tskhinvali, that bastard started interrupting her.
                                                      When girl's aunt started saying that it was Georgian president Saakhashvili who started this war, that bastard interrupted her and made a break (and gave her only 30 seconds after).
                                                      Do you know why? I'll tell you: 'cause that's inconvenient truth. That's not the things that Western media is supposed to show.

                                                      P.S.: One more interesting fact: the counter of views stopped at 4168 more than an hour ago and doesn't increase any more.

                                                      P.S.S.: consider one more simple fact: why homeless people from Tskhinvali go to Russia to have a shelter, but not to Georgia? Doesn't this fact confuse you?

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      Reply#22 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
                                                      Alex Golovanov

                                                      FOX News is a joke - they anchors always take a one sided stance. Can anyone really disagree with that?

                                                        #22.1 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:57 PM EDT
                                                        The Unknown Furry

                                                        If we're going to bash media outlets, take it elsewhere unless it is inherently relevant to the current situation in Georgia/South Ossetia/Abkhazia. Otherwise, politely stow it and return to analysis of events.

                                                        We're here to discuss the war, people, not how it's being presented. That said, someone should start working on obtaining documents relating to this matter and getting them to Wikileaks for dissemination. Then we can straighten facts out with a definite list of sources.

                                                          #22.2 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:15 PM EDT
                                                          Mike, Just Mike

                                                          That's the direct link: http: //www. youtube. com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ (remove spaces).
                                                          Number of views is still stucked at 4168 (for 2 hours already).
                                                          Enjoy your "democracy" and "freedom of speach"....

                                                          P.S.: here is an alternative link http: //www. youtube. com/watch?v=q1LrRS-IKBo
                                                          More than a hundred views in several minutes (JFYI).

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #22.3 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:31 PM EDT
                                                          Alex Golovanov

                                                          The Unknown Furry, I have to disagree with you. Large part of this war is propaganda, which in term is disseminated through mass media. Some channels have proven worse than others, FOX and CNN, for example would feed people direct statements from Saakashvilli, without any investigation. Many of those statements (if not the most) were false. So bashing media outlets is quite appropriate, in my opinion.

                                                            #22.4 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:25 PM EDT
                                                            The Unknown Furry

                                                            A good point there, Alex. I still stand by my statement that we need to begin independently obtaining and validating source material, though.

                                                              #22.5 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:39 PM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              Ineluki

                                                              Here is what I found: the photos from Ossetia.

                                                              www.navoine. ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551 (delete space)

                                                              CAUTION! There are the photos of heavily injured soldiers.

                                                                Reply#23 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
                                                                Mike, Just Mike

                                                                http: //www. youtube. com/watch?v=Wr8wQABTt1U (remove the spaces)

                                                                  Reply#24 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:09 PM EDT
                                                                  Babel Fish

                                                                  Could I be of help by linking properly:

                                                                  Pictures of war

                                                                  Video of war

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #24.1 - Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:20 PM EDT
                                                                  Ineluki

                                                                  Thanks a lot. I wish all the world to see this...

                                                                    #24.2 - Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:57 AM EDT
                                                                    Babel Fish

                                                                    On trying to make sense of this war I wrote the following article:

                                                                    Georgia and Russia why is there a problem

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #24.3 - Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:32 AM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Mike, Just Mike

                                                                    Wanna have some "fun"? The main page of CNN.com for you and the same page for Russian people are different!!! One Russian guy asked me to save the whole page and send it to him. And he did just the same thing.

                                                                    See and compare:
                                                                    http:// rapidshare. de/files/40243370/cnn-from-russia.mht.html
                                                                    http:// rapidshare. de/files/40243368/cnn-from-canada.mht.html

                                                                    Are you still thinking that CNN tells you (and anyone else) exactly what is happening there???

                                                                      Reply#25 - Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:22 PM EDT
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