Log In | Register
270 Comments
Print
msnbc.com Newsadvertisement
LITTLETON, Colo. - If you could put karma in the bank, Stan and Christine Penton would have a nice savings account.
As owners of one of the Denver area’s last remaining suburban equestrian stables for the past 13 years, the Pentons have offered programs for disabled riders, rescued wild mustangs and subsidized lessons and horses for the less fortunate among their generally well-to-do clientele. Leaders in their community and their church, they adopted two young children from Russia.
And good karma is mostly what they have to show for it. That and the $7,400 they can count as profit so far this year from the hundreds of thousands in revenue they have collected at their Normandy Farm and Stables.
Steep increases in operating costs, coupled with a whopping property tax bill, have left the Pentons unable to earn a living from their 4-acre spread in unincorporated Jefferson County, tucked neatly amid $500,000 tract homes and million-dollar McMansions.
“This doesn’t even support us and we work all the time,” says Christine, 48. “Enough is enough.”
The situation has the couple clamoring for a shift in the way their local, state and federal elected officials do business.
“Politics has got to change,” says the 49-year-old Stan. “I’m just looking for a level playing field, but politics has been going on as usual while Rome burns.”
In a battleground county in a battleground state in a presidential election that could come down to a handful of electoral votes, Stan and Christine Penton are the embodiment of voters that both parties are trying desperately to woo: unhappy about where they see their country going but uncertain that either candidate will make much difference. And like many other voters, they find that the shrill claims and counterclaims about Barack Obama and John McCain’s experience, age, temperament, friends and flip-flops make it hard to drill down to the substance on issues like the war, immigration, energy or health care, or even know which matters most.
But here in the well-heeled and pristine suburbs south of metropolitan Denver, the city where Democrats will convene on Monday to crown Obama as their standard-bearer, in the immortal words of longtime party operative James Carville, it’s the economy, stupid.
Little obvious turmoil
On the surface, it is hard to sense much economic angst in this area near Littleton, the seat of neighboring Arapahoe County. The town of 45,000 gained worldwide infamy in 1999 after a shooting rampage claimed 15 lives at Columbine High School, a mile from the Pentons’ place, but life has since returned to what passes for normal in these quiet, affluent suburbs. Wide thoroughfares curve gracefully through neighborhoods filled with handsome homes and well-landscaped yards. Open space seems almost as ubiquitous as the strip malls, their parking lots packed with SUVs and minivans. Parks, ball fields and golf courses are too plentiful to count.
With an economy fueled by an expanding high-tech sector and strong retail base, U.S. Census data pegs the median family income of the Littleton area in the high $70,000 range, about $20,000 above the national average. Median home prices are in the $250,000 range, roughly 25 percent higher than the national average. And, like Colorado as a whole, Denver and its suburbs have escaped much of the economic suffering visited upon other U.S. regions. Unemployment has edged up from below 4 percent last year to just over 5 percent, half a point below the national rate. And home prices have fallen only slightly compared with the plunges seen in Florida, California and elsewhere.
Don’t be fooled, Stan and Christine Penton say. Regardless of income, everyone has been hammered by the surge in gas, energy and food prices. They have friends with six-figure incomes whose power has been shut off over late payments. While the state as a whole appears to have turned the corner on home foreclosures — the late-ripening fruit of the nationwide mortgage-lending scandal — they are setting new records in Jefferson County.
Even some of the Pentons’ high-end clients, who own dressage and hunter-jumper horses worth more than $50,000, are downsizing their hobby, skipping riding competitions more than two hours away and looking for stables closer to their homes to save on gas.
That’s helping the Pentons keep their 51-stall barn busy at monthly rates of $625 to $725 per horse for “full care,” which includes twice-daily feedings, stall-cleaning and bedding. The resulting $325,000-plus in annual revenue might sound like a handsome return on the property with its 16,000-square-foot covered arena, small family home and other outbuildings, which the Pentons bought for $400,000 in 1995 after fleeing the smog and congestion of Southern California with eldest son, McKenzie, now 16.
‘A break-even deal’
But the family, which now includes another son, Spencer, 11, daughter Ana, 9, two cats, a dog, a pair of goats, a pony and an old blind cow, finds itself in a perfect storm of skyrocketing prices on almost everything needed to run business and home. At best, “this is just a break-even deal,” Stan says, and it always has been.
The Consumer Price Index may be rising at less than a 5 percent annual clip nationally, but that’s of little consolation to Stan as he ticks off the increases that Normandy Farm and Stables has faced recently on key operating costs: manure disposal up 17 percent; feed and grain up 27 percent; utilities up 46 percent. They have no regular employees, but their contract for cleaning and feeding services has gone up 18 percent.
“This junk here, which is already recycled, has gone up 50 percent in the last year,” says Stan, kicking a bale of paper stall-bedding made from shredded phone books.
The crowning blow to the operation’s bottom line has been a property tax increase that came after the Pentons razed their old stables and built a new arena and stall complex in 2000. Stan says the stable was reclassified, because assessors likened the covered arena to a warehouse, and their bill leaped from about $5,000 to $32,265 last year. They have been appealing ever since, recently retaining an attorney. Stan points out that nearby homes with the same valuation of about $1 million pay less than one-fourth the taxes.
“This is just a big patch of dirt covered with a roof, so stop it with the taxation,” Stan pleads.
Christine points out that the tax hike is especially hard to understand because nothing changed in the zoning of the property to allow them keep more horses than the 50 they were already permitted to have. “They didn’t increase our ability to make a profit to counter the taxes,” she says. In fact, requirements for a drainage pond took a good chunk of their land out of any use. “Think about it. If someone came to you and said they needed $30,000 more, what would you do?”
Forced to take a second job
Stan went to work at a full-time day job, as assistant manager of a health club in Denver. He spends days off from that job — Tuesdays and Wednesdays — and most of the rest of his waking hours handling billing, chores and maintenance at the stables along with his wife.
The Pentons’ finances suffered another blow a few years ago when they rented out their house on the stable property and bought a tract home a few miles away, hoping to create more of a sense of neighborhood for their kids, especially the two younger ones, whom they had recently adopted from Russia. But the plan failed to pencil out, both socially and financially, and by the time they moved back to the farm, Stan figures the foray had cost them $40,000.
While Stan’s job at the health club has kept the family above water, in recent months the rising price of gas has doubled the cost of his 28-mile round-trip commute, even though he ditched his big ranch truck for a midsize SUV about 18 months ago. He plans to look for something that gets better than 17 mpg when the lease expires soon.
Meanwhile, the family lives off Stan's salary from the health club and cuts corners wherever it can. Stan and Christine both chuckle at the notion that their impressive compound with its hunter-green-on-white buildings and clients’ BMWs and Porsches in the parking area bespeaks a life of wealth and leisure.
“Everything we get is Goodwill, Wal-Mart,” Christine says. “Our kids love to go to thrift stores. … We’re struggling a lot. I ride the bike, I drive the golf cart, I walk, I consolidate trips.” Other than a couple of the mustangs she has rescued and trained, Christine hasn’t even been able to afford to keep a horse of her own. She has given up going to the hairdresser. The family rarely even goes to first-run movies and has taken just a couple of driving vacations in recent years. McKenzie does attend an expensive boarding school, but only because the tuition is a gift from his grandmother.
“It’s more and more difficult every day,” Stan says, adding that a big part of their vision over the years has been “doing it for the community” by offering programs for the disabled and subsidizing some riders. “It’s a nice lifestyle but you want someday to be able to look at the fruits of your labor and say, ‘We can make a couple bucks.’”
‘You just get worn out’
Adds Christine, “We were so gung-ho when we started, but you just get worn out. We’ve done some nice things and we own a pretty facility, but if we’re not able to have an adjustment in our taxes, we’ll need to sell or I’ll have to get a job.”
The couple sees clear lines between government policy decisions and the financial straits that they and many other Americans currently find themselves in. Take energy, Stan says, maintaining that the lack of a comprehensive, forward-looking policy is responsible for rising gas prices and ineffective efforts to develop alternative sources. “You have to scratch your head about ethanol; that’s why feed prices here are a lot higher,” he says, pointing out that in addition to a drought currently affecting the state, much of the land formerly used to grow hay is now sprouting corn to make the grain alcohol. And his generally sunny disposition darkens dramatically at the mention of bailouts for subprime lenders and borrowers: “They should just let them all burn!”
With the family paying $10,000 a year for bare-bones health coverage, Christine wonders why the government hasn’t done more on this issue and has had trouble finding the information that would help her figure out whether Obama’s or McCain’s plan would be better for them.
Both Stan and Christine voted for President Bush in 2004, but their views are diverging on what they consider the most important political decision of their lives, with Stan planning to vote for McCain and Christine for Obama. Though neither is really happy with their choice, they spar with each other and with McKenzie, who while still too young to vote says he agrees with Obama more than McCain. These conversations are living proof of the electoral volatility that both sides hope to harness in towns like Littleton and states like Colorado.
Stan, a die-hard Republican, believes his party has failed to live up to its ideals in recent years but will stick with the GOP because “the alternative is worse.” He fears an Obama presidency would bring higher taxes and more government interference. “I am pretty much of a firm believer in self-reliance,” he says. “Get out of my life; get out of my way.”
Although no more enthusiastic than Stan, Christine is ready to give the Democrats a try. While she finds policy differences between the candidates “very confusing,” she believes that an African-American president could energize and revitalize the country in a number of ways.
Both Stan and Christine are keenly aware how agonizingly slow the pace of change can be once Congress and the federal bureaucracy are factored in.
“If people really think that all of a sudden things are going to change just because of a change in administration, I think they’re mistaken,” Stan says. “I don’t see a lot of happy days ahead.”
37 Votes- Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
Published to:
- Mike Stuckey's Column, All of Newsvine
- Groups: EquineVine, Gut Check America, MSNBC.com
- Regions: none
- Public Discussion (275)
- Public Discussion (0)
- EquineVine
- Gut Check America
What's this?
Who's leading the conversation?
This visualization below allows you to see the impact that each user
has on the current conversation.
The top row contains the group of users who have had the most impact, the 2nd
row the group of users who have had the 2nd most impact (et cetera).
Users with similar impact are grouped together, and the average score of the group
is shown to the left of the group. The author of the article is also shown on the
left, in their corresponding group.
Each user's score is based on the number of comments the user has made plus the
number of votes their comments have received. The scores are calculated relative
one another, so while their absolute value is not particularly important, their
relative difference does indicate a larger difference in impact on the conversation.
5.3
3.2
0.8
{"commentId":2526273,"authorDomain":"schratboy"}
Whiners. They feel like they're put upon because they have to work all the time? That's what working for yourself is all about sometimes. And a modest profit ain't too bad. If all their other operating costs are met including food, housing and so forth that isn't too bad.
It seems that the biggest point of the story is the huge tax increase of some 600%. That SHOULD BE THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE STORY. Government has become so huge and oppressive, courtesy of both parties, that people are having to lay out more cash than ever before.
All the new regulations, restrictions and laws seem to only suit the large corporations that control what we see, eat and consume. There's less diversity of choice and thus less stability with the balance of options being limited to a handful of super-large, super-wealthy companies. And it's these same entities who are front and center paying/lobbying our priggish representatives to do their bidding.
{"commentId":2526273,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"schratboy"}
#1 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:46 AM EDT{"commentId":2526346,"authorDomain":"schratboy"}
They feel like they're put upon because they have to work all the time? That's what working for yourself is all about sometimes. And a modest profit ain't too bad. If all their other operating costs are met including food, housing and so forth that isn't too bad.
It seems that the biggest point of the story is the huge tax increase of some 600%. That SHOULD BE THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE STORY. Government has become so huge and oppressive, courtesy of both parties, that people are having to lay out more cash than ever before.
All the new regulations, restrictions and laws seem to only suit the large corporations that control what we see, eat and consume. There's less diversity of choice and thus less stability with the balance of options being limited to a handful of super-large, super-wealthy companies. And it's these same entities who are front and center paying/lobbying our priggish representatives to do their bidding.
{"commentId":2526346,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"schratboy"}
- 3 votes
#2 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:52 AM EDT{"commentId":2526402,"authorDomain":"tobys-1"}
While I understand that the majority of people in this country are struggling with increased costs, this couple's personal financial situation has very little to do with politics. Horse boarding is a 24x7 job with a tiny return if you are lucky. Go interview 1000 boarding stable owners, they'll tell you they barely break even and they work all the time. This is nothing new. A change in politics is not going to suddenly make horse boarding a profitable business.
On of the oldest quotes in the horse business is: "It takes a large fortune to make a small fortune in horses."
{"commentId":2526402,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"tobys-1"}
#3 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:58 AM EDT{"commentId":2528130,"authorDomain":"tuliphill"}
I own a 30 acre horse farm in MD, from November 07 thru May 08 I averaged 2 horse sales a month from my Off Track TB market. I buy and re-make race horses..sort of a re-cyle business. From May onward lots of lookers but no buyers. Even sales that went all the way to the wire got pulled last minute because family business were in a financial crises or the buyers own horse had failed to sell. Entries @ rated shows seem to have smaller classes or need to combine when permitted to make enough entries to be able to compete.
This couple operating issues are that they have to import most of their feed and hay, and in that area they have less ready available pasture so they need to subsidize w/ lots of hay again imported. Manure has to be paid to be disposed of instead of composting and spreading or like out here I sell mine to the mushroom business.
The riding for the handicapped should see a return especially from those w/ insurances that cover. If that business were to be incorporated as 501? non-profit that aspect is a full write off?
Where are the Summer riding camps and horse shows to maximize usage of property and why not rent out that indoor for other groups to use, even indoor soccer in rainy weather or flea market?
a leased SUV instead of a gas saving 30 mile to gallon sub compact?? While they are not whining they don't seem to be to creative. While horse sales inthe mid 6 figure range still go on and they seem to have the right clientele maybe a creative financial advisor or perhaps an outside consultant would help maximize the potential. The tax issue is devastating but didn't the building and zone people bring this to light when they apllied? For a full service stable the rates are low by East Coast standards where a lesson minimum is mandated and charged even if you don't take them.
{"commentId":2528130,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"tuliphill"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2529710,"authorDomain":"fredom0681"}
I agree with most of what you said, Pat. Although, I live in New England where mostly everything has doubled. I board my horse at barn that has 40 horses with 52 acres of grazing land. Full board includes fed twice a day, hay, water, stall cleaned with fresh bedding daily and my horse grazes from 7:00 am - 6:00 pm for $400.00 a month. There is also an indoor arena. The owner is making a very good profit and has to turn new boarders away. First rate show barns are getting about $600.00 - $700.00 a month, which offer more amenities than the barn I board at.
The Pentons have 50 horses on 4 acres of land and the only amenity they have to offer is an indoor arena. I would not consider that a first rate facility!
{"commentId":2529710,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"fredom0681"}
{"commentId":2526407,"authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
The Pentons do not come off as put upon or whining about their situation at all. They're very grateful for many things in their lives, from good health to the lifestyle their kids are exposed to amid the animals, and so forth. The story intends to illustrate the high level of frustration faced by the Pentons and many other voters with economic issues they have no control over, despite how hard they work.
{"commentId":2526407,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
- 3 votes
#4 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:58 AM EDT{"commentId":2526408,"authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
Wow - median income is around $70K but median house costs are $250K. I guess that's why people there are struggling. With my $80K income and $170K house, I'm doing just fine. PEOPLE - IF YOU QUIT LIVING ABOVE YOUR MEANS, YOU WOULD HAVE A LOT LESS TO WHINE ABOUT!!!
{"commentId":2526408,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
- 2 votes
#5 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:58 AM EDT{"commentId":2528574,"authorDomain":"rainman628-1"}
I've lived in Colorado my entire life. Never has the wage versus cost of living or housing been equal. Taxes are high, infrastructure is archaic and the Dems have run it into the ground. Pena and his DIA debacle. Webb and his nepotism and outlaw relations! Now we have Tex Ritter and John Licinpooper fighting tooth and nail against more drilling and gas exploration in the name of some jumping mouse or a toad or some damn thing. If the Dems are for the working guy it sure doesn't seem that way in Colorado!!!
{"commentId":2528574,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"rainman628-1"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2528931,"authorDomain":"jruffini"}
I totally agree, QUIT LIVING BEYOND YOUR MEANS!
{"commentId":2528931,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"jruffini"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2529792,"authorDomain":"arepublican"}
I agree! Sounds like bad management!
{"commentId":2529792,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"arepublican"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2532186,"authorDomain":"edirector"}
I think the Pentons are living within their means at the moment. It seems that they got caught as they tried to expand or modernize their business and the economy has turned and their expenses have risen faster than their revenues. Sometimes businesses get it right and get lucky and other times they don't. It doesn't appear that the Pentons are that well off compared to their clientele - who by the way, also appear to be cutting back on lifestyle choices or expense in tough times. However, they're living their American dream in the land of opportunity.
{"commentId":2532186,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"edirector"}
{"commentId":2526468,"authorDomain":"frank-3"}
{"commentId":2526481,"authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
Why is there such a growing trend in this country to look at someone else's experience and judge it based on one's own? I'm doing just fine, so everyone else shut up. How is that relevant?
It DOES play nicely into the status quo and all the interests it serves.
{"commentId":2526481,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
- 5 votes
#7 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:05 AM EDT{"commentId":2528310,"authorDomain":"kathya40"}
It's all about you!!!!!!!
{"commentId":2528310,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"kathya40"}
{"commentId":2532455,"authorDomain":"brianconners"}
{"commentId":2532779,"authorDomain":"bjw1966"}
Einstein, something tells me your post is going to say "Deleted" very soon...
{"commentId":2532779,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"bjw1966"}
{"commentId":2534475,"authorDomain":"nancysmith54"}
Don't you three know what italics mean? That's paraphrasing. That's not Mike's words.
There are nice ways of saying things that disagree with others. There's no need to call people names just because you don't understand them.
{"commentId":2534475,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"nancysmith54"}
{"commentId":2526505,"authorDomain":"2mnyk9s"}
Americans must realize that Rome IS burning and neither candidate can wave a wand and turn it around. We have tough times to work through that will most likely require sacrifice of some kind for most Americans.
We need candidates who are truthful with us (tough love, so to speak) and not just pander to our wishes that we could go back to cheap and plentiful oil (drill here and drill now!), cheap and plentiful food, easy money, etc etc. It will take a lot of money and effort to attack climate change, which has to be addressed or no other issue will even matter 20 years from now.
I personally believe Sen. Obama knows these things and has the best vision. No candidate wants to tell us how hard "the fix" is going to be. We need to be intelligent enough to ascertain it for ourselves and put the right man in the White House, experience or not. He is surrounding himself with intelligent, experienced people of vision.
{"commentId":2526505,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"2mnyk9s"}
- 2 votes
#8 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:07 AM EDT{"commentId":2526547,"authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
Ann -- Do you think Obama will deliver the "tough love"? I'm pretty sure he won't tell voters to go shopping, but will he tell them to stop driving and borrowing so much?
{"commentId":2526547,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2527001,"authorDomain":"liquorup"}
{"commentId":2528506,"authorDomain":"schratboy"}
Hope you can heat your home and power your vehicles with all the Obama promises of change. The only "change" you'll get is different packaging with the same crummy ingredients. The players on stage change every 4 years but the infrastructure of unelected power chiefs remains intact who continue to pull the strings to suit their personal agenda.
{"commentId":2528506,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"schratboy"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2528605,"authorDomain":"rainman628-1"}
AHHH, don't forget to air up your tires!
{"commentId":2528605,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"rainman628-1"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2528620,"authorDomain":"brookschaos"}
No, I am afraid you Obama supporters don't get it. Obama is why the economy is ALREADY taking a slow down. I mean slow down, not recession, because those that know also know that the economy is still showing growth only at a slower rate than in Bush's previous years. People with money AND intelligence KNOW that Obama's policies will HURT the average American. As for his oil ideas, get a clue!!!!!! Do you know what one of the biggest factors in the cost of food and environmental pollution is? It's the extreme amount of corn being grown to produce ethanol. I am all for finding alternative sources of energy but the change cannot happen in a couple of year, it must be done the RIGHT way with finding REAL solutions but we have to be realistic and realize we cannot be weaned of our oil dependence overnight and must find ways to bring the price down now. The Dems are the ones who put us at the mercy of foreign oil by keeping down domestic production and our refining capabilities so that we cannot meet our needs. Obama's ideas will just further hurt the average person and that's NOT EVEN mentioning his tax increase. As someone who works with taxes, most Americans really need to get the real info. It's people making less than $60,000 a year that will be hurt the most when Obama gets rid of Bush's tax cuts. Just think about it, that's less money that we can spend on our families. I just wish Americans would get some common sense and realize these "ideas" of the liberal left are just that ideas, they just won't work. Thank God that Stan has the right attitude about being self-responsible. If we made more Americans have a better work ethic and show some personal responsibility, we would have plenty of money to take care of our needs. We just can't do that now because we have raised so many "entitled" people who think the rest of us should work to support them and then we give so much in taxes that we cannot take care of our own needs such as health care.
{"commentId":2528620,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"brookschaos"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2528724,"authorDomain":"liquorup"}
{"commentId":2528987,"authorDomain":"williams2692001"}
Stop the whining and grow a pair because the cheap easy days are OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! someone has got to clean up the mess this Trickle Down crowd has brought this once great nation. Taxes will have to go higher in order to stop the borrowing frenzy, Get THIS FOLKS there is no more cheap money to be had and Greenspan's ideas have brought us this false economy of borrowed money and huge deficits that DO MATTER. I get tired of Americans who have benefited the most complain when the bill is due. You partied for 30 long years on this train of good times now it's time to pay the fare. Are you gonna stand up and share in the sacrificing or prolong the inevitable for another 4 years. Your children's future is at stake....
{"commentId":2528987,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"williams2692001"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2529087,"authorDomain":"sfrangione"}
Actually, i believe Ronald Regan was the one who stated that there was no energy crisis and started that ball rolling once again. Additionally, i don't believe the wealthy suffered undue hardship during the Clinton administration when they (the wealthy) paid their fair share of taxes. Why do we reward wealth over hard work by lowering the tax rate for investor. Even Warren Buffet sees the fallacy in that. The middle class saw their take home pay rise during the 8 years under Bill Clinton, all that progress has been washed away by the 8 years of George W. Bush. I'll take my chances with the Democrats any day, perhaps that way my daughter won't have to graduate from college with a 6 figure debt!
{"commentId":2529087,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"sfrangione"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2531540,"authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
Government needs to go on a huge diet.
{"commentId":2531540,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2532841,"authorDomain":"bjw1966"}
Susan, I've done well under both Clinton and Bush. The economy we're in now is partly fueled by the Deomcratically controlled congress. Don't forget that. You left wing zealots won't be happy with a Republican president unless we start a new depression so you can say "See, I told you so".
{"commentId":2532841,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"bjw1966"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2533246,"authorDomain":"spfeiffer13"}
OklahomaMom........ Bravo for the distorted political speech! First off, this is what they get for voting for Bush! They wanted him so now they have to deal with the consequences.
Now let's examine your main points:
"Obama is why the economy is ALREADY taking a slow down. I mean slow down, not recession, because those that know also know that the economy is still showing growth only at a slower rate than in Bush's previous years."
- So which is it? Is it slowing down or growing? How is Obama affecting the economy? Let's blame Obama not the mortgage crisis, banking crisis, oil crisis, Iraq issue, unemployment rate?
"People with money AND intelligence KNOW that Obama's policies will HURT the average American."
- Care to elaborate? I may not be rich but I am intelligent. Obama's policies will only help this nation.
"As for his oil ideas, get a clue!!!!!!"
- Not sure what ideas you are talking about. He is for a mixed energy strategy.
"Do you know what one of the biggest factors in the cost of food and environmental pollution is? It's the extreme amount of corn being grown to produce ethanol."
- This is another example of lies that uninformed people continue to repeat. If there is such a shortage of corn then why does the government pay farmers not to farm? It might do you a little good to look into an issue first before you repeat it as fact. The corn that is used to produce ethanol is feed corn. You know, the stuff cows eat. Now instead of just sending the feed corn to the farmers they make ethanol out of it first. Then they send it to the farmers. You see, it is still able to be used as feed after the ethanol process. This is just another lie that you are being sold by some greedy industry to justify their price increase.
"I am all for finding alternative sources of energy but the change cannot happen in a couple of year, it must be done the RIGHT way with finding REAL solutions but we have to be realistic and realize we cannot be weaned of our oil dependence overnight and must find ways to bring the price down now."
- I'm sorry but I don't remember ever hearing Obama state that this can be done in a couple years. In fact I've heard his say that his plan is a 10 year plan that will not only break our dependency on oil but also create 5 million new jobs. Drilling in the Gulf will not even produce oil for 10 years. Bush's own energy group has said that it would only decrease gas by .04 cents a gallon. That seems like a lot of work for a little money.
"The Dems are the ones who put us at the mercy of foreign oil by keeping down domestic production and our refining capabilities so that we cannot meet our needs."
- Actually the first Bush is the one who signed the law to prohibit the gulf drilling and as far as I know, the democrats don't control the refineries.
"Obama's ideas will just further hurt the average person and that's NOT EVEN mentioning his tax increase. As someone who works with taxes, most Americans really need to get the real info. It's people making less than $60,000 a year that will be hurt the most when Obama gets rid of Bush's tax cuts."
- How will the people making less than $60,000 a year be hurt if Bush's tax cuts are rescinded? Those tax cuts are for the ultra rich. Also, Obama's taxes will only affect people making over $250,000 a year. That is only the top 4% of Americans. Everyone forgets that we are going into 6 years of a war that has not been paid for. If you are one of the many people that thought we needed to go to war, now the bill is coming due. Time to pony up!
"Thank God that Stan has the right attitude about being self-responsible. If we made more Americans have a better work ethic and show some personal responsibility, we would have plenty of money to take care of our needs."
- I agree. More people need to take accountability for their actions and decisions. I don't view this as a right or left thing. I view this as a personal characteristic that is instilled through a proper upbringing.
{"commentId":2533246,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"spfeiffer13"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2540107,"authorDomain":"drath88"}
I think the problem with the "wealthy" paying their "fair" share of taxes is that there is no agreement on what those terms means.
To the Democrats, everyone who make more than minimum wage is a target for being "wealthy", and their "fair" share of taxes apparently defies being a simply percentage of income, since the more you make, the larger a PERCENTAGE you pay. This is ALREADY the case, so what do the Dems want, to DOUBLE the rate at which tax brackets jump? People should be rewarded in proportion to their contributions, period. I think a fixed tax rate of 15% would be just fine.
{"commentId":2540107,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"drath88"}
{"commentId":2541267,"authorDomain":"spfeiffer13"}
Yeah, you're right. The Dems just want to tax. I'm sure that the Dems think someone making $6.55 an hour is wealthy. Come on now......... Stop drinking the Kool-aid!
{"commentId":2541267,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"spfeiffer13"}
{"commentId":2526592,"authorDomain":"emas-1"}
International standard salary for manufacturing jobs is less than $4. USA law enforce $7. So jobs left this country. This is fundamental reason. We, or US Government, give our jobs to other countries! Don't blame others.
{"commentId":2526592,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"emas-1"}
- 1 vote
#9 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:15 AM EDT{"commentId":2528027,"authorDomain":"admasco4945-1"}
International standard expenses are probably less than $4. an hour. This is $640. per month. You try to live on that.
{"commentId":2528027,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"admasco4945-1"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2528315,"authorDomain":"evake"}
I sooooo agree! What the US government needs to do is somehow bring manufacturers back to this country (whether by enticement or punishment), so that US citizens can have jobs. Stop giving other countries our income! Everyone that can work, should. Stop welfare except in emergencies!
{"commentId":2528315,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"evake"}
{"commentId":2528884,"authorDomain":"lakeworthguy"}
This is $640. per month. You try to live on that.
That fact doesn't matter in their little world because it's someone elses problem.
{"commentId":2528884,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"lakeworthguy"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2540109,"authorDomain":"drath88"}
What you don't understand is that China artificially fixes the exchange rate between the Yuan and the dollar, instead of letting it market decide. That ALONE is why the Chinese make everything and we sell them nothing.
{"commentId":2540109,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"drath88"}
{"commentId":2526622,"authorDomain":"emas-1"}
{"commentId":2526632,"authorDomain":"mortonwanda"}
Maybe one of the adults could become a licensed minister, claim a vow of poverty, put the horse farm under the protection of a religious organization that they create and then PAY NO TAXES ON THE PROPERTY. If I had a tax bill that went from $2000 to $30,000 I'd certainly entertain that thought. Use the laws on the books to work in your favor if the taxing authorities are willing to adjust the tax bill.
{"commentId":2526632,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"mortonwanda"}
- 1 vote
#11 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:18 AM EDT{"commentId":2526816,"authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
Interesting idea, Wanda! They could also consider a Cayman Islands shell corporation and avoid other taxes, like Kellogg, Brown and Root, a top Iraq war contractor and former arm of Halliburton, which continued to pay our vice president handsomely after he took office and the administration helped the companies profit even more. The tax laws certainly seem to work for THEM ...
{"commentId":2526816,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"MikeStuckey"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2527277,"authorDomain":"liquorup"}
{"commentId":2527943,"authorDomain":"kpboord"}
Bush and the Republicans DID cut taxes. And guess what, those tax cuts prompted INCREASED revenues to the FEDERAL coffers. Any deficits are due to poor spending habits, NOT the tax cuts. Another misrepresentation by the left.
The property taxes imposed on the couple in this article has nothing to do with the tax cuts that President Bush signed into law early in his administration. It has everything to do with a LOCAL government trying to squeeze blood from a rock.
{"commentId":2527943,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"kpboord"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2528619,"authorDomain":"rainman628-1"}
I think you can become an ordained minister online for 25.00.
{"commentId":2528619,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"rainman628-1"}
{"commentId":2528666,"authorDomain":"liquorup"}
{"commentId":2528984,"authorDomain":"lakeworthguy"}
Bush and the Republicans DID cut taxes. And guess what, those tax cuts prompted INCREASED revenues to the FEDERAL coffers. Any deficits are due to poor spending habits, NOT the tax cuts. Another misrepresentation by the left.
Lies, damn lies and then Republican fantasies....
How can you people keep a straight face while spouting off that nonsense???? The economy was tanking after 9/11...you do remember that, don't you? The economy would have rebounded with or without the tax cuts for the rich. It's part of the normal business cycle for crying out loud!
{"commentId":2528984,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"lakeworthguy"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2530560,"authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
You are right the same thing happened in 1992 and I am betting it will happen again, the problem is politicians claim credit for normal economic cycles and claim their tax policies are the reason. The fact is Republicans cut taxes and spend more than the increased revenue, Democrats raise taxes and spend more than the decreased revenue. And when the economy grows the crow like the rooster who is taking credit for the sun coming up. Both parties need our money to perpetuate their power base. There are a few questions though, do you love your country or your party, how many voters are you willing to buy for your favorite scoundrel and finally are you tired of being screwed by whichever party you support?
{"commentId":2530560,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
{"commentId":2526633,"authorDomain":"emas-1"}
{"commentId":2526655,"authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
{"commentId":2526680,"authorDomain":"diplomat55"}
"Affluent voters show concern about the economy"....WOW!! It's about time they started to show some concern. THEY haven't been affected too badly until now, so they just went merrily on their way supporting the neocon agenda because it wasn't affecting them...yet. Now it is and they are finally waking up and showing concern. It might just be too little, too late.
{"commentId":2526680,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"diplomat55"}
#14 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:21 AM EDT{"commentId":2530937,"authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
That is an interesting spin, A good economy is good for everyone. If you believe that people in the upper income brackets don't want others to do well you might want to reconsider. A good percentage of people who are doing well rely on a good economy for their livelihoods. While there are some who see them as ghouls who sit around in secret meetings trying to figure out how to take things from the poor, they would probably want to interact with others with the means to trade money for goods or service, keeping the poor down is not real productive unless you are trying to keep a constituency alive. There are some who are committed to contributing to improving lives, they choose to contribute to agencies who put their assets to work rather than in the pockets of political cronies. The tried and predictable political lines are not very productive and may not be true.
{"commentId":2530937,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
{"commentId":2526724,"authorDomain":"aggregates9"}
I'm sorry, but Boo Ho. Let's blame everyone but ourselves. That the new American way. They should check the zoning first on the new riding rink. Their real tax bill did not kill the "cash cow", the major reasons was the needed or wanted to over extend themselves. personally and in business. Easy credit and the no risk mentality doomed them and most of the people in in the in the same position. As one said below, LIVE IN YOUR MEANS.
{"commentId":2526724,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"aggregates9"}
- 1 vote
#15 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:25 AM EDT{"commentId":2526739,"authorDomain":"mjballew"}
I live in this community. Are you kidding me? I am a graduate of Columbine High School and I have a daughter who is a senior there now....GET OVER IT MEDIA!!!! Talk about the economy...not the "tragedy" We have moved on why can't you? Every story that is written about Denver seems to have to include Columbine.... We are Columbine. Talk about the economy not the infamy.
{"commentId":2526739,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"mjballew"}
- 1 vote
#16 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:26 AM EDT{"commentId":2526792,"authorDomain":"holmeed"}
Awww the rich can't afford their horses. Most people are going w/o food because of these rich criminals overcharging and price gouging Americans. When will you Americans wake up? ITS A PLUTOCRACY! You just sit and grovel while the corrupt and privileged run rough shot over decent workers. Organize, boycott, unionize or you are through American consumer/workers.
The MAJORITY of the rich got that way?
) hard work?
) lie, cheat, steal, rinse, repeat?
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
{"commentId":2526792,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"holmeed"}
#17 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:30 AM EDT{"commentId":2526799,"authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
They are reaping what they sow. Someone has to pay for all the republican borrwing. Bush is so like Reagan, talk about not raising taxes and controlling spending, but they spend, spend, spend. It is their legacy to the american people:debt. Clinton lowered the national debt, bush added to it in spades. Its time for a change America
{"commentId":2526799,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
- 1 vote
#18 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:30 AM EDT{"commentId":2530955,"authorDomain":"NVJJ"}
You know folks we have a two party system, the Dem's, are presently in charge of Congress. I look at our present financial problems relating to several items. For instance it is too bad that the lending institutions made loans beyond the realistic means of the borrower, why was this allowed to happen? Perhaps Fanny and Freddy should be shut down. Whenever they have trouble, it seems the taxpayers paying the bills have to bail them out, not government. To bail them out increases the National Debt, creates a devalued dollar, instigates inflation, and in so doing creates an increase in taxes. People make more money due to inflation, and are pushed into a higher tax bracket; a true hidden tax increase. Does it seem to you that the government reduces taxes? It appears we are in the second major inflation occurrence in the last eight years. The National Debt has nearly doubled in the last eight years, which is a major historical jump. This flood of monopoly money can't help but create a big problem. Check out National Debt dot com.To bail us out of the predicament we are in, will increase the Debt more and more. Until we establish a better responsible monetary system that does not devalue the dollar, can we expect more of the same? You can almost bet on it. About 1965 gasoline per gallon was obtainable for 18.9 cents, a three-bedroom two bath quality built home cost about $20,000. The elderly are on a fixed income with no way to keep up. Think about it. The object to running a business is to make money, sometime it is better to cut your losses. Are the residents of the area in favor of a stable, and therefore higher taxes are a message? It is noted that several listed comments are very good.
{"commentId":2530955,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"NVJJ"}
{"commentId":2526806,"authorDomain":"f4trigg"}
The increase in their taxes is what caught my eye. I do not think they were whining, I think they were very honest about how very deceiving looks can be. Kudos they have been very generous with their community, there are many folks who appear to be "wealthy" who can no longer donate to community efforts. We feel that in my neighborhood and it has hurt scholarship fundraising. As a lifelong Democrat and school board trustee, living in a Republican majority county I try to do a fair amount of fundraising, the economy cuts across party lines. I have not found any disparity between parties of those who want to give and do give. I have found that we have lost a lot of volunteer hours because many folks had to go out and get a "real job", one with a paycheck rather than working from home.
{"commentId":2526806,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"f4trigg"}
- 1 vote
#19 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:31 AM EDT{"commentId":2526808,"authorDomain":"holmeed"}
Awww the rich can't afford their horses. Most people are going w/o food because of these rich criminals overcharging and price gouging Americans. When will you Americans wake up? ITS A PLUTOCRACY! You just sit and grovel while the corrupt and privileged run rough shot over decent workers. Organize, boycott, unionize or you are through American consumer/workers.
The MAJORITY of the rich got that way?
) hard work?
) lie, cheat, steal, rinse, repeat?
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
{"commentId":2526808,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"holmeed"}
- 1 vote
#20 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:31 AM EDT{"commentId":2526815,"authorDomain":"liquorup"}
{"commentId":2526871,"authorDomain":"c-starlight"}
Why don't they just sell their horse farm and invest the money. Many people who have owned their own business have either sold or lost it; therefore, they wouldn't be the first. Everyone in America is struggling just to stay above the water, except for the wealthy. But they will soon fall if this country keeps heading in the direction that it is going. When Rome fell everyone including the wealthy were included in the downfall. The wealthy need to remember one thing; without us, there's no you(wealthy).
{"commentId":2526871,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"c-starlight"}
#22 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:35 AM EDT{"commentId":2526874,"authorDomain":"pgsmock"}
I agree with Toby. Stan and Christine need to realize that the government (nor the next president) will not be of much help to them. They made the decision to leave another lifestyle in SoCal, and now they are realizing that the horse farm in CO is not going to give them a lucrative lifestyle. If they wish to continue with their farm, then perhaps Christine should consider getting a job outside the farm to make ends meet.
{"commentId":2526874,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"pgsmock"}
#23 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:36 AM EDT{"commentId":2526903,"authorDomain":"benedicite"}
It's unfortunate that the Pentons and others like them are stuck in what seems to be a no-win situation. It's especially stressful for the middle class now, because they were led to believe that as White, well-educated, healthy, hardworking Americans, they deserved success and could achieve it and maintain it without much trouble. Now they're experiencing what the working class have known forever. The sad reality in America is that unless you're an executive working for Big Corp or Big Law, you're never going to do better than just get by, if that. What we're seeing now is the result of "trickle-down economics" and the trickle has just dried up. Years of short-sighted corporate greed has cut the legs out from under the middle class.
{"commentId":2526903,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"benedicite"}
- 6 votes
#24 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:38 AM EDT{"commentId":2526980,"authorDomain":"diplomat55"}
Julie.....You've pretty much said it ALL. God Bless you for your insight and willingness to speak up.
{"commentId":2526980,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"diplomat55"}
{"commentId":2527045,"authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
Julie great insight
{"commentId":2527045,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2528878,"authorDomain":"tleps"}
While many would agree with your cynicism towards big business as the only way to make a decent wage, I beg to differ. I know far too many who have done just fine being self employed, and that includes my family. The real problem is everyone wants big paychecks with absolutely no idea how such gets paid for or what "income" even means – if I'm not working no one is paying me... no "paid vacations", no "holiday pay" – no "overtime". If I want a check I have to actually DO something that another finds valuable and is willing to pay for. Economics 101, which far too many of my country men must have opted out of as it's not "required" course work.
I don't feel sorry for any of us who are adults – I feel sorry for our children who will be left paying for our unbridled greed and demand to maintain unjustifiable standards of living. We're only getting what we justly deserve (I watched in amazement as most around me ATM'd their homes for... what???? A huge vehicle to brag to the world they'd made it and levels of consumption that would have made our grandparents sick...). We seem to have moved so far from capitalism I'm not sure we'll ever find our way back. Might as well just let Washington get on with the central planning of our economy so we can go back to never bothering to think about our lives. Everything will be taken care of for us and we shall be forever happy.
Things won't even get interesting until such time as all our foreign creditors (you know, the one's we, as a country, have made fun of for being "les advanced" then us...) decide it's time to get paid back for all their savings they let us borrow. That's when the real financial pain will begin.
{"commentId":2528878,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"tleps"}
{"commentId":2530411,"authorDomain":"stevemollett"}
You will see more small businesses starting, and doing so on less capital, because of the changes in the economic landscape. We have gone from the recent, knowledge-based economy to the creative economy. Entrepeneurship is the wave of the immediate future, propelled by the research and marketing capabilities afforded by the internet.
{"commentId":2530411,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"stevemollett"}
{"commentId":2526945,"authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
{"commentId":2526952,"authorDomain":"jbm82302"}
I don't mean to be stupid, but the headline on the main msnbc webpage says 'tony horse farm'. What is a 'tony' horse farm? Is this a typo?
{"commentId":2526952,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"jbm82302"}
#26 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:42 AM EDT{"commentId":2531961,"authorDomain":"edirector"}
"Tony" implies well to do or caters to an exclusive clientele.
{"commentId":2531961,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"edirector"}
{"commentId":2526993,"authorDomain":"21stJohn"}
I'm sorry but I really just have to laugh at this story. Are the majority of Americans supposed to feel sorry now that folks with million dollar properties and kids in expensive boarding schools are finally feeling the pains of this economy? I wish I had those problems. Get real. These people still have the option to sell and live a very comfortable life for some time if they learn to live within their means.
I don't need to read this crap right now. I've seen too many responsible less affluent people lose much more due to lay offs, outsourcing, and migrant competition for employment.
{"commentId":2526993,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"21stJohn"}
- 2 votes
#27 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:45 AM EDT{"commentId":2527040,"authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
Thank you 21st John. I said the same thing a second ago, but got deleted.
{"commentId":2527040,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
{"commentId":2527003,"authorDomain":"maxbadal"}
Stan still hasn't figured it out and is going right back into the ditch...knee-jerk stupidity. Thank goodness his wife has a brain to figure out that their situation and the economy are stuck in reverse.
Stan, you just can't fix stupid..you deserve to work two jobs.
{"commentId":2527003,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"maxbadal"}
#28 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:45 AM EDT{"commentId":2527064,"authorDomain":"frantran"}
Okay guys I live in Colorado. The property tax increase and the way they decide how and what to tax you by sucks. Our governor, the democrat he is, couldn't get a property tax increase passed so he did an end run, he make the to freeze property taxes at rate they were at, well this year property taxes were to go down a little and than in the following years increase again, he couldn't wait. Although taxes did not go up as much as the Pentons they did go up example my house $170,000 tax in 2006 $986, tax for 2007 $1210, this happened to allot of people here, what caused this was the mil levy not being able to follow the rules set before ritter. Yes the assessors are re classify business and their property and homes. My house in nowhere near the $170,000 they tax me on, it is 1 story about 960 sq ft and was built in 1962 but as most government officials they turn a deaf ear to the people. The state government can't budget all they know how to do is spend. What do you think is going to pay for short fall from DNC as always the tax payers.
{"commentId":2527064,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"frantran"}
#29 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:50 AM EDT{"commentId":2527113,"authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
I thought democrats only tax the rich
{"commentId":2527113,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
{"commentId":2527408,"authorDomain":"dougg-1957"}
Stockcar,
I'm in Maryland and the same exact thing happened with our Governor. The only difference is, he was (not reelected) republican. So it goes both ways.
{"commentId":2527408,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"dougg-1957"}
{"commentId":2529283,"authorDomain":"lakeworthguy"}
$170,000 tax in 2006 $986, tax for 2007 $1210
So your city and/or county has nothing to do with property taxes in Colorado, just the evil liberal governor?
How about the value of your property? Did it change any from 2006 to 2007?
In Florida, on a taxable property value of $170,000 you would be looking at over $3000 in property taxes...but then we don't have an income tax.
{"commentId":2529283,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"lakeworthguy"}
{"commentId":2531016,"authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
If you live in Illinois you have more property tax and income tax and the highest sales tax in the country and a governor who is heading for jail. thats where Mr Obama comes from and what he wants to do to the country.
{"commentId":2531016,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
{"commentId":2527070,"authorDomain":"craig-10"}
People get used to it. Everything the federal government is involved in is horrible. And Obama wants to nationalize healthcare, revamp social security,etc. Neither candidate is anything to write home about, but McCain is the lesser of two evils.
{"commentId":2527070,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"craig-10"}
- 1 vote
#30 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:50 AM EDT{"commentId":2527184,"authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
Is mccain the lesser of two evils or the evil of two lessers?
{"commentId":2527184,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
{"commentId":2527991,"authorDomain":"logdump"}
People like yourself with misinformed statements like this are the reason this country is going through what it is going through. McCain wants to continue the policies of Bush which means more of the same failed policies for four more years. It does not take a real quick mind to realize that if that happens we are going in the wrong direction. These people and others like them are having tax problems because the revenues states used to get from the federal government gave huge tax cuts to the most affluent in our society that never invested those tax cuts back into the system. This forced state and local governments to have to raise taxes or find other resources to meet the needs of their constituents. I pay federal, state. county, and city, taxes where I am and after the Feds take theirs and I spend something it is taxed also. Then there are taxes on any real estate I own. Prices are going through the roof which makes the tax on everything I buy much higher and the corrupt Governor a republican added many things to what is taxable that were not there before. Like bottled water and soft drinks dry cleaning etc. Republicans tell you the Democrats tax and spend but they do not lower the middle class taxes they shift them around. I netted a loss after that Bush tax cut after you factor in the increases in the increases from the other places I have to pay. Mccain the lesser of two evils? Only if you are rich
Now the question on these people and their tax bill. How do you build a structure on your property without researching it in the first place to see what the tax increase is going to be. A simple trip to the assessors office or going on line to see how other structures are taxed could have saved them the grief they now endure.
{"commentId":2527991,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"logdump"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":2531121,"authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
Failed policies, lets see...Social security is bankrupt, medicare is more expensive than ever imagined and far from a safety net for seniors, medicaid is bankrupting state budgets, the current tax code has virtually every working citizen working for the government until May or June ( I am not talking about the rich only here) our congress refuses to increase oil production in the middle of a meteoric rise in prices. Yep there are enough failed policies to go around and i haven't even scratched the surface. But you are probably right the excessive amount of money the government uses to buy votes is probably not enough, why don't we all pay more taxes.
{"commentId":2531121,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"carlostoadvine"}
{"commentId":2527082,"authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
gee I got deleted amomentago because I mentioned the R word. So much for a free discussion
{"commentId":2527082,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
#31 - Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:51 AM EDT{"commentId":2527124,"authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
I got deleted too (didn't even use the R word). Guess someone is holding the reins pretty tight today
{"commentId":2527124,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"jefrbacon"}
{"commentId":2527211,"authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
MORE LIKE A NOOSE.
{"commentId":2527211,"threadId":"336274","contentId":"1766255","authorDomain":"randalyoung-1"}
{"canLink":false,"threadId":"336274","isPrivate":false}
You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead. |
As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
Start Tracking
Stop TrackingCOMPANY STUFF:
LEGAL STUFF:
- © 2005-2009 Newsvine, Inc. |
- Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
- Newsvine is a property of
