Egypt septuplets stir debate on fertility drugs

It's a Christian couple in Iowa. Please be respectful of others. You'd want others to be respectful of you.

Lisa,

I'm sorry that you were offended, but I really dont worry about whether or not others are respectful of me. I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I'm not.

I am not offended. I just think your comment was rude. It's possible to make a point without belittling others, which is what you did. When you diminish another, you also diminish yourself.

I'll concede all but your last point - how do I diminish myself when I diminish someone else. This would only be possible if there were absolutely no difference between me and some religious knuckleheads who use fertility drugs to defy nature's laws and end up with 7 children, two of whom are going to be deformed for life!

Now, I would have to find *that* offensive! :)

That's just rude and not very thoughtful.

If I was rude, I was deliberately so. Peopple that have more than a couple of kids are social parasites in my book and I make no apologies for venting my opinions of them in the strongest terms possible.

Sharat C,

First of all, Iowa, isn't "the midwestern boondocks". Have you ever been there? It's actually a very nice place full of very good, hardworking people.

Secondly, the Christian influenced couple from Iowa that had the septuplets did have fertility issues. Their previous kids were also had with "help".

I'm not going to say that reduction wasn't a probable possiblity, but that's what I would have done....we can't speak for her. Now, this poor woman in Egypt didn't seem to even have the information or education from physicans about her options in reduction (not abortion...different, by the way). It doesn't seem like the physicans even knew what to do or where to go. That's upsetting. If they are going to go around shooting up fertility drugs, then they better have a good handle on what COULD happen, not what SHOULD happen.

I am also sad about "more than a couple kids" being social parasites. Wow. You obviously don't have kids, or had terrible siblings yourself. Our family is large, and fabulous, and loving and handled. We are engaged, we work together and we all have responsibilities that make things work. Granted, we don't have septuplets, but I didn't need fertility drugs for help.

I agree with Lee, that you are rude. Doesn't matter if you care. That's the problem. You think you can just post things and say things without consequence. Even if you don't bear the consequence, some one does. There's always the effect after cause. Be wary of how you treat others.

Sharon:

Nice use of the "Stretch them to their limits" metaphor. That poor woman in Egypt could definitely relate to it! *grin*

I agree with you. The babies are already here. Let us do the good deed and help if possible. If I donate money how do I know that the family will actually get the money???Big Question? I feel that she needs to be in a larger home and have support like we in America do for women who have larger families. Her husband needs a steady job to provide and feel of self worth also. I would not mind sending them baby clothes but how is it done?

I really don't know yet. I have sent some emails trying to get information. It would be nice if we could have their address so things could be sent directly to them but it may not be possible. It would be a huge risk for them, considering how many people disagree with their choice. I would definitely NOT have made that choice myself but the deed is done and we can't penalize the children. Hate mail and unwanted attention would be as devastating as poverty.

I don't know how the Egyptian government would handle something like donations. We do know that some of the places we sent food failed to distribute the food and it ended up either rotting or being sold on the black market with great profits for the usurpers. No, we don't want that to happen -- nor do we want to be suckered in by some upstart "charity" that will take our money and send nothing to the family. I advise caution unless it is a well established organization with a good reputation. And DEFINITELY don't send anything to me. If I can get an address we will all send to it. How's that?

The freebies are the biggest hindrance in the effort to discourage such monstosities - its what basically keeps these clowns masquerading as parents in business.

There are countless children worldwide born in poverty, neglect and abuse that languish in those conditions because we cant produce a telegenic "man-bites-dog" story about them. On the other hand if they're born in a batch of 6 or more, all of a sudden, they're a sensation and we pamper them to no end, even if their parents are a couple of some means that lives in a comfortable, bland and sterile (yes, I'm aware of the irony!) suburb.

Sharat, I completely agree - there are so many abandoned, neglected, and abused children out there without a home, food, etc, yet people who are "blessed" with 5+ multiples get to live off of tax dollars and on television. Brilliant.

Ask the couple in canada who put their baby up for sale as a joke.

Not ALL people have access to Healthcare, shelter, and food in America. When millions of Americans do not have health insurance - options are blocked. Hospitals turn patients away. Clinics ask for 'insurance information' before asking your name or what it is you wish to see the Dr. about. I agree that administering fertility injections to a family who are already struggling is insane.

A similar incident happened near Seattle. The family was/are living with her parents, have two girls, and she took fertility drugs. Now they are begging for donations to have a house built, cloth, provide the basic needs for their children. I don't understand the logic of purposly getting pregnant when the parents already struggling. C'mon - we want our kids to have a BETTER life - not struggle from day one!

Mary,

I understand, and even completely empathise with, your sympathy for the children involved. But my point is that we would be performing an act of selective charity in helping these particular individuals. What about the hundreds of thousands of children in Darfur that live in agonising and unrelenting misery? And thats just a single example of the sort of atrocities that children (not a miniscule fraction of whom are septuplets) have to endure, worldwide.

Moreover, I happen to be an atheist, so the argument that life is a "gift from god" does not even register, leave alone resonate in the realm of my thought process. Life is a biological mechanism that's governed by, as well as constrained by, the laws of nature. We can obviously tamper with it as evidenced by the numerous "septuplet" scenarios, but we do so at an expense, tangible or not.

There are many parts of the world where raising a single child can be an onerous burden, leave alone 7! So the parents should have had these considerations drilled into them by their doctors and mullahs, the latter of whom I am willing to wager, were actually facilitators in this whole ghastly exercise.

While some sort of help may certainly be called for on humanitarian grounds, the perpetrators of this abomination (parents, doctors, mullahs etc) should all be held accountable and at the very least, incur the strongest and harshest condemnation possible. They should be made to feel ashamed of themselves for being such social parasites.

The are not a gift from God, they are a product of greed and medical science...They made them, along with their dr. let him support them...And before I am attacked for being uncharitable...I give $, clothes, time, school supplies and food to those who need it in my community....

It's truly nice and admirable of those who want to provide assistance. However I'm doubtful that any goods sent to them would actually turn up on their doorstep. A pakage of American clothing, formula, baby supplies, would surely be confiscated enroute and end up for sale at a market somewhere. If you want to help them out, be sure to do it through an international aid organization based here in the US.

Ummm, we are the only country that makes you pay to go to the hospital.

The treatment costs are only the equivalent to $7.50. It is possible for people to afford them. The important thing in a country like this is to have sons no matter the cost, there has to be a paradigm shift in the culture. As it is now, females just cost a family money because one family raises them to just be married off and work in someone else's household. With a son, they remain in the family and become a breadwinner for his family and extended family.

Outraged1961 said "Ummm, we are the only country that makes you pay to go to the hospital."

Sorry - not true, Outraged. Many countries charge hospital fees. I've worked in several African countries where fees are charged. Some don't have the tax base to provide free care, and so user pays. Even those of us with public health care do pay - through taxes.

Because, as the article stated, the meager supplies at the hospital made the risk higher. At least in some parts of the world, your medical professionals are actually prepared when faced with a risky birth.

By not condemning this action, we are endorsing it. And it is not a "miracle".. it is cheap science.

It is no miracle that we help infertile families to conceive, it is plain science. Infertility is something that many religions abhor and Churches in the US even have special prayer services for couples who otherwise can't conceive. There are many religions that consider birth control of any kind to be irreligious. But did anyone ever consider that we are in a broken, fallen world and while infertility is a sign of that brokenness and therefore should be prayed about; excessive fertility is also a sign of that brokenness? Medicine (a product of science and religion that has become its own fledgling entity now) is committed to doing no harm and to in fact helping people. Is it helping to cause infertile couples to have 7 babies at once? I don't think so. But is it helping to cause fertile couples to stop conceiving? Probably. The killing of unborn babies through in vitro fertilization or abortion whether to stop overpopulation or to help infertile couples conceive is an abomination in medicine and religion. So this conception, I say again, was no miracle.

On the other hand, I am totally with Mary that we should do all we can to help these children...not just these 7 specifically but the children all over the world in poverty, want, and despair. One organization that helps: World Vision...and they work in Egypt too.

Why not just leave it at prayer then, if you're so convinced that the invisible-man-in-the-sky (to quote the late great George Carlin again) to whom you pray, can answer all problems due to infertility?! Why do you need fertility drugs?!

I think its because, goofy as these fundamentalist nutjobs are (Yes, I know its offensive and I don't care - that's the idea!), they have a subconscious awareness of the sheer futility of prayer alone.

The sheer irony of the most unscientifically tempered people on the planet being bailed out by monumental advances in medical science, is I'm sure completely lost on these wackos.

Wow. bvharper apparently loves to make comments that aren't relevant to the discussion, and I feel compelled to reply:

Since when are all Muslims (which the article doesn't say, but I would assume from their names) or all people from predominately Muslim country terrorists? You're an ignorant person who obviously just wants to start arguments.

"And, actually, isn't it their business, not ours?. Why do we insist on minding other people's business when it isn't hurting us in the least? So, MYOB folks!"

But I would argue that this is our business, and for two separate reasons. Firstly, unchecked population growth, especially in impoverished nations, leads to geometric increases in disease and famine, which result in a severely decreased standard of living for the entire population. Secondly, this family and many like them are clearly not in a financial position to be adequately providing for so many children, which similarly results in a decreased standard of living for the specific children in question. Both of the reasons, then, share a common theme: a decrease in the standard of living (read: an increase in physical suffering).

Although I think it's generally of the utmost importance to respect individual rights, I think we need to remember that there are cases where "respecting" individual rights inevitably leads to collective harm being done to a larger group of people. The crux of the matter, then, is in deciding which is more beneficial to society in certain cases -- preserving the rights of an individual or ensuring the collective health of the many? While this is exactly the same kind of argument that can be manipulated to push irresponsible laws, like the Patriot Act, during times of hysteria, I think that the decision to ensure the health of the many at the expense of individual rights can sometimes be the sensible thing to do. Of course, this is entirely contingent upon what your definition of "individual rights" is, and I'm not sure if the "right" to have a child passes the smell test in all cases.

While using the long arm of the law to limit the number of children a person has bothers me on a certain level, I also recognize that there need to be fundamental expectations of an individual's ability to raise and provide for a child. And unfortunately, in this country as in around the world, it seems that the least capable to raise children are usually the ones most likely to have them.