Fear grips immigrants after Miss. plant raid

it's a federal civil offense.
the crime is the company that knowingy hirers illegals thank god immigration isnt a federal crime
our courts would be full and tied up for ages.

Simply putting the blame on immigrants for taking jobs does not equal justice. What about the businesses who choose to hire immigrants over legal citizens? It's a matter of exploitation for cheap labor and those businesses are just as guilty as the immigrants if that is what you are trying to say. It is a vicious cycle because they come here for a better living, they work for a better living, they get hired by companies that want to pay someone less. It doesn't end. I think since we are so willing to help other countries, ahem ahem this war we are currently in, why don't we help other countries who obviously cant support their citizens?

Well its true. There is cheap labor available. The bulk of this is in poorer countries, hence the wholesale outsourcing of jobs to countries who have cheap labor.

They are not criminals, they are people looking for a better life. The jobs they were hired for I would guess were not easy and didn't pay much. The companys should be held accountable to the point that the CEOs go to jail... and have signifigant penetalities. The pastor is ministering to the least, after all, most all of our ancestors could have been classifed as illegal imigrants if the same standard was applied.

Howard Industries Investing Partners, pillars of the community and icons of American business. Here are our real values on the table. Note that HCA was the criminal fraud healthcare firm owned by Senator Bill Frist's Family. Yes indeed, these folks have plans for a fence, complete with loopholes that fill their pockets by exploiting workers and taxpayers and skating off free.

Richard L. Scott is currently the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Richard L. Scott Investments, LLC, a private investment company, where he has served since July 1997. Mr. Scott was the founder, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of HCA, Inc., formerly named Columbia/HCA Healthcare Corporation. Mr. Scott previously served on the Company's Board of Directors from February 2001 to March 2003. He is also is a Director of Cyberguard Corporation.

Richard L. Scott was recognized by TIME Magazine as one of America's 25 most influential people. In 1995, he was named CEO of the Year by Financial World magazine and was also cited as one of the Top 25 Performers of 1995 by U.S. News and World Report magazine.

A Huge Victory Against Medicare Fraud Largest Department of Justice fraud settlement ever!

A Department of Justice investigation that started when an employee found questionable documents in the dumpster behind an El Paso, TX hospital ended December 14 when the largest fraud settlement in US history was announced. Attorney General Janet Reno announced the settlement in a Washington press conference, citing this as victory against those unscrupulous health care providers who would take taxpayer money that does not rightly belong to them.

In her statement, the Attorney General stated, "Under a civil settlement, HCA -The Healthcare Company will pay $745 million, plus interest, for its alleged false billing practices. And, it will pay $95 million in criminal fines.

Hate to admit this ,but we do benefit from illegal workers.The jobs they do keeps the prices low by their cheap labor cost.So if we are gonna do amnesty , the "Fair Tax" must be passed first.

And then build a fence please.

Fences? Forget it. Romania, Bulgaria, Berlin, etc. and other countries tried that. And those guys had machine guns, barbed wire, dogs, and searchlights. Still people got through.

They are criminals? Sure they are. Problem is, there are now 12 million of them in the U.S.

So what do you do?

This also means One in Twenty-Five U.S. Residents is an Illegal Alien

Take a minute and look at a REAL solution to this problem.

Hate to admit this ,but we do benefit from illegal workers.The jobs they do keeps the prices low by their cheap labor cost

Those cheap labor costs take jobs away from workers here so that companies have more profits. It feeds a cycle of poverty where workers are under constant wage pressure and need to seek lower costs to survive. It is unsustainable and makes all workers seek constantly lower paying jobs.

If fair market prices, including living wages can't be obtained then folks need another business. In a free market paying market wages gives small business the opportunity to compete and individuals and entrepreneurs can fill the gap.

When a few cheat the system it creates a downward spiral that costs us all. Greenwald's documentary on WalMart called the High Cost of Low Prices does a good job of explaining the broader effect domestically and globally. It is worker exploitation, nothing more.

I agree.

My parents worked hard to immigrate to Canada legally. They learned the language, and integrated into their communities. They did not form ethnic "ghettos" and shun the citizens of the nation they'd chosen to settle in.

It's an insult to all legal immigrants - and their children - to have even one illegal in any country.

form ethnic ghettos? Wow, I did not know people just decided to form a ghetto because they wanted to. These people are products of our CORRUPT society and where they choose to live is probably due to the fact that they cannot afford to live anywhere else, at least anywhere affordable. If they tried to move into a suburban neighborhood I'm sure the residents would not be happy having others that are different living in such close proximity. If you truly wanted to be understanding and willing to be fair, you would understand that not everyone has it as easy as most people. You need to consider the life these people have lived through, the education they have or don't have, and even the resources that they do not have available to them. Fod Goodness sakes people, I understand these people have broken the law by crossing the border and trying to survive, but you act like they crossed into this country and are committing murder as soon as they step foot into this country. In my mind, this falls back into the simple issue of prejudice and institutional racism which we are not willing to admit to because we are too caught up in our "beliefs" and what we hear from other people. It's not right to justify your prejudice by stating that they are "criminals" and should be treated as criminals at the extent of dehumanizing their status. We need immigration reform and a better handling within our government because our laws have changed drastically and it is time for a change in this century.

In Florida they do, just pick a open field, park some trailers, or tents, and you have a ethnic ghetto. Or, rent a house for a single family, and move in 6-8 family's, ghetto in the making. Treat them well, but send them home. Company's that hire are to blame.

So do you think these people grew up wanting to live in the ghetto where the standard of living is automatically so low? If legal citizens "form" a ghetto why don't we consider what situation they are in and what resources are not available to them, such as money, and then we can begin to see why people behave and do certain things. Is it feasible to find and send every immigrant back to their home country? I plan on becoming a citizen since I am currently a permanent resident and was considered an illegal immigrant when I entered this country as a kid. I can't imagine being sent back to somewhere I did not grow up and experience a completely different lifestyle.

*sighs*

Ethnic "ghetto" = ethnic enclave. It's not at all hard to look up these definitions.

People can and do choose to live within ethnic enclaves (for those who seem to take offense with the previously used word). It offers a sense of security to newcomers to any country. It's an understandable reaction. Unfortunately it can insulate those newcomers from their new homeland and result in alienation.

where they choose to live is probably due to the fact that they cannot afford to live anywhere else, at least anywhere affordable

Every place I ever lived was dictated by what I could or couldn't afford. That's not discrmination. That's reality.

If you truly wanted to be understanding and willing to be fair, you would understand that not everyone has it as easy as most people.

Lived that.

I harbour absolutely no prejudice or racism against any illegals and find it offensive to suggest that I do. It doesn't matter to me whether or not the individual(s) come from Mexico, China, Argentina, or Poland, it is how they came here that matters.

How do you feel about those high professionals who commit white collar crime and receive such little time in jail or fines? Yet, even those citizens such as poor African Americans receive double time for possession of drugs or stealing from a store. I don't understand how this country is justified in putting the blame on outsiders. Since white is the majority, by default there is more white crime than minority or immigrant crime, so why do we simply assume all immigrants are committing crimes? My parent's have never been on welfare so do not try to tell me we all come here to take your money. It comes down to basic human rights despite what you have done. I don't include those bad seeds who truly have committed heinous crimes such as murder, but do not generalize all immigrants as criminals simply because of what you hear by a biased media.

but do not generalize all immigrants as criminals simply because of what you hear by a biased media.

If they come into this country illegally they are criminals, that's what illegal means.

Stealing, damaging, or destroying a mailbox is considered a federal crime right along with entering here illegally. How ridiculous is that? Just because a law labels them as "criminals" does not give you the right to assume they have done worse deeds than just entering the United States. I"m sure most people would not even give someone damaging a mailbox much consideration or call the person a criminal and have them punished to the fullest extent.

Opti, messing with a mailbox is a federal crime for good reason. Our country was the first to have a real mail service. This necessitated making messing with a mailbox a serious crime. I still consider it a serious crime, since people entrust their economic lives to those boxes. If it's ridiculous to you, you're obviously part of the problem, homes.

Just because a law labels them as "criminals"

. Silly us, we thought the law defined who was a criminal. How would you define criminal?

My parents experienced discrimination when they came to this country. They still do sometimes. That didn't stop them from making a life - a good one at that - and certainly didn't prevent them from learning English.

Comparing a speeding ticket to illegal immigration is... apples to oranges.

I don't understand how my comparison is not legitimate. Speeding endangers people's lives and I consider that more dangerous than someone coming here to make a living.

How well off were your parent's before coming to this country, what education did they receive, and what ethnicity are they? Where do you think immigrants should go to learn English where they will not experience discrimination? My parent's are immigrants and came here when I was 5 years old, I also came as a young child, also an immigrant, but we are all now permanent residents. I am proud of who I have become and I do not blame my parent's for making the decision they made when they came into this country. I got a chance to receive and education and learn so much about this country and I value my time here, I only wish people considered everyone's situation, not just looking at the negative aspects, before generalizing and stereotyping.

Opti, the fact that you have your little fantasy world where all the other immigrants secretly don't speak English has nothing to do with real life. And yep, homes, I'll call you a criminal for a speeding ticket.

what ethnicity are they?

Why would that make any difference? What ethnicity are you? The most generalizing and stereotyping I've seen was commited by you.

Speeding endangers people's lives and I consider that more dangerous than someone coming here to make a living.

I do dangerous things every day. Not only do I usually go a few kph over the speed limit, but I also drink milk after the expiration date, and sometimes I allow rain to fall on me, risking the chance of fatal pneumonia.

You know what really is dangerous to a person's life? Not having a job. That makes it hard to eat. Or have a place to sleep. It's also kind of hard to support a family with no job. It's also tough to make a living scraping by when the job market is artificially depressed by people driving down wages by flooding the market with cheap labour. That's pretty dangerous to a honest person's attempt to make a living. Paying taxes for services a person can't use - like the police - because people who don't pay taxes overuse them, is also fairly dangerous to a person's life.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get my drift.

How well off were your parent's before coming to this country

They had virtually no money when they came here. Pocket change.

As for the rest of the questions... what is the relevance? Let's see, how about you answer those questions before I answer them.

Where do you think immigrants should go to learn English where they will not experience discrimination?

How about they learn English in their own countries before they decide to move to an English-speaking country? That seems to make sense to me. If I were going to move to Laos, it might be a good idea to learn the language before I moved there... right?

Which previous generalisations and stereotypes have you found objectionable during our conversation?

As far as the relevance to my questions, I was simply trying to argue the point that every immigrant has a different story and a different life. Therefore, justice cannot be done by stating that they should learn English in their own country, a country that they are probably limited in terms of resources. As far as my own parents they also came here with pocket change and did not continue their education past the 5th grade. They did not finish school because they were lazy or did not care, but because in order to survive they had to find work in a small town that barely offered decent jobs. Education plays a major role in this situation and you cannot expect someone to learn another language in their own country when the resources are not available. My father is barely literate and he does not have the education one may need to learn a different language. "You know what really is dangerous to a person's life? Not having a job. That makes it hard to eat. Or have a place to sleep. It's also kind of hard to support a family with no job. It's also tough to make a living scraping by when the job market is artificially depressed by people driving down wages by flooding the market with cheap labour. That's pretty dangerous to a honest person's attempt to make a living." --This situation you describe, may also be the reason why immigrants come to this country. It's not a fantasy world I am living in as some have decided to tell me, it is reality. However, we obviously cannot accept reality in its truest form unless we bring down a cultural group can we? Ethnicity, race, and education play pivotal roles in this country and as much as I am willing to believe that racism and discrimination are not around, I am wrong. If that were the case then how would you explain the large disparities between African Americans and other races? (primarily the Caucasian race). If differences exist between these two groups of people, who reside in the same country as equal citizens, then obviously immigrant groups differ greatly from the majority.

You don't need an education to learn a different language. You don't even need to be taught formally. Many people learn languages merely by immersing themselves in the local culture.

My grandmother, for instance, when she visited in Canada for a few years, managed to learn to speak English despite having no formal education in the language. Mind you, she could not speak it perfectly, but she certainly could hold her own in a conversation. She was in her seventies, too!

Regarding racism and discrimination, that is something I know more than a little bit about as well. I have written about it at length elsewhere on NV, so I won't repeat myself. However, despite the discrimination that used to exist so strongly here in British Columbia - and still does unfortunately - there are many immigrant success stories.

They wouldn't come if they couldn't find work.
Cant blame a starving man for eating sandwich put out in the street.
If you cant stand seeing the starving men
then quit putting sandwiches in the street.
they'll go where their are tortillas in the street or maybe gyros :P

Baloney, that's just an example of an American taking advantage of illegal immigration to better his business. Illegals are here making themselves available to take advantage of by greedy business people. SAD BUT TRUE... Illegal immigrants know they are illegal and are the guilty ones. They sneak, harbor, fake passports, arrive through underground tunnels, car trunks, etc.....THEY KNOW THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW. THAT IS WHERE IT ALL BEGINS.

EXCELLENT POINT... Too bad nobody had the "cojones" to respond.

It's not substantially different when a company decides to outsource to another country.

However, money talks, and it talks loudly. If the American public decided to boycott companies that not only employed illegals, but which outsourced, I'm sure we would notice a difference.

And quickly.

I have a solution.

First, any company that moves out of the US for cheap labor, tariff and tax the crap out of them.

Second, hold the companies and individuals responsible for hiring the illegals. If they do, fine them and jail time.

If you take the jobs away from them, they will not come.

While I don't blame them for coming to this country, do it the legal way. If their country can support industry and keep them employed, good for them. That is the job of their government.

I lived next to a family in a large city one time. They were from Honduras. They had 6 families in a 3 bedroom home. One woman was put in charge of the money. The men all worked, gave the money to the head woman. She paid the rent, bought food and took care of the cooking, cleaning, and gave each one an allowance each week. The money that was left over, was sent to their country.

I became good friends with them. I tried to encourage them to get their citizenship. They didn't want that. They were just trying to make things better so they could go back home in a few years. They were illegal. The local police knew, but there was nothing to do about it. They were too far away from the border and it would cost too much to send them home. They even had a US Marshall who lived on the other side of them.

Just think, there were about 10 men, working at cash jobs, not paying taxes. They just wanted to make it better for their families back home. I know they had fake ID and SS#'s. I know they lived in tight quarters. And I know they were nice people, but they still broke the law.

In my opinion, the reason they did not want to become citizens could be due to the fact that it would bring dishonor for them to renounce their country of origin if they are only working to go back. I've heard many who just want to come here and work and send money home to eventually head back home, but they get caught up in the American lifestyle and the way of living that they seldom remember their reasoning for staying here. We obviously have a bigger issue at hand, however, the fact that we have so many immigrants residing in this country and we cannot find a feasible way to deal with them. Sending them all back does not sound logical, so why don't we help them and allow them a path to permanent residency so they in return can give back to this country? I am also not advocating we give them a free stay for entering here illegally, but I do know that when my parent's became residents they had to pay a fine for "admitting" they got here illegally.

I absolutely agree- Jail time would be very appropriate for these executives. I know the top dogs will say they didn't know the documentation provided was illegal, or they didn't know their lower managers hired illegals. Round them all up and prosecute them to the full extent of the law- and make it very public.

Under the law, a company found guilty of employing illegal immigrants "could" lose public contracts for three years and the right to do business in Mississippi for one year.

in other words, probably nothing.

Individuals who made the decision to hire them might get fired, unless they are the ones doing the hiring and firing..oh wait, i guess they are.

I'm down with that plan as long as the United States of America also IMPRISONS the h.r. department heads, the payroll clerks who are accessory to the crime and corporate and company big wig who okayed this "I'm didn't look so how could I tell" bushllit excuse. These are the criminals who will do anything top keep wages low for all honest labor.

I like your way of thinking. I only wish the process for entering here legally was not so complicated and it did not take so many years. I think in some situations, at least for some immigrants, their decision to enter illegally is a matter of life or death. They either starve and watch their family suffer or do something drastic in hopes of surviving one more day. Some people have commented on the fact that they have enough money to pay someone, normally known as a "coyote" to help them cross, and they believe that if they have enough money to spend on this why don't they spend it on bettering their lives or applying for legal entrance. If they used this money to gain legal entrance, who knows how long it would take for them to be approved. It becomes a matter of temporary help by entering illegally or suffering for years until they are approved a legal way of entering.

I don't give a rat's ass about Hiu Lui Ng or another other illegal alien inconvenienced by these raids. I care about the US citizens killed on a weekly basis by criminal illegal aliens. You want some names, how about these: Jamiel Shaw (murdered for no reason this year in Los Angeles), three members of the Bologna family (gunned down this year in San Francisco). Both cases by illegal aliens who were previously arrested but not deported.

poker,

I hear you, 2 young guys from my shop, 24 and 26. They were hit, head on by a drunken illegal invader. One of them loses his right arm above the elbow, the other is crushed from hips to shoulders, has emergency open heart surgery, spends 5 weeks in a coma and will never be able to walk unassisted or stand on his own again. The illegal invader made bond and disappeared. Where's the justice for them? What crime did they commit?

Who was responsible for the illegal invader landing in the United States of America? Did the illegal invader have a job? Did the illegal invader over stay some visa req?

since I doubt the invader was kidnapped and forced to come here I'm going to say he was responsible for coming here.

Did he have a job? Who knows? He's disappeared.

Did he overstay his visa? You're kidding right? You think he had a visa to start with?

Pokermilk, you clearly didn't read my whole statement. Hiu Lui Ng came over LEGALLY. He LEGALLY worked with every single greencard he needed (in case you didn't know, you need more than one to LEGALLY become naturalized.) He broke NO laws and worked, paid his taxes and everything else LEGAL citizens do. And the only reason he never became a citizen was because the DHS made an error and refused to correct it. And the DHS killed him. Other than that, I don't know how to respond when you clearly care more about a ridiculous sense of national pride over human rights.

For the rest of you -

OJ Simpson - American citizen
Michael Jackson - American citizen
Kobe Bryant - American citizen
Richard Nixon - American citizen

Those are a few people of whom you may have heard.

Wikipedia lists 186 pages for American serial killers.

You seem surprised that illegal aliens commit crime, as though no one ever heard of a person committing a crime before.

Laconius,

I take it your point is that we have enough home grown criminals and shouldn't allow more to invade from the south?

This is about criminal invaders, not home grown criminals, we have enough of those too.

Bringing specific crimes into the conversation pollutes the water of the discussion, I think. In order to prevent criminal invaders from entering the United States, you must define a criminal solidly and unchangingly. Secondly you must determine what creates a criminal - crimes are committed, I think, as a result of many factors either personal or societal - and exclude everyone who falls under those categories from immigrating.

Do I support violent criminal activity? No, I don't support it any more than I support corporations exploiting cheap human labor to maximize profits.

In my original statement above I am not condoning illegal immigration. I support immigration reform and I also don't think we need amnesty of 12+ million immigrants to do our low skills work that cannot be done by others. I am simply pointing out that we each play a vital role when it comes to illegal immigration, and we must not be quick to blame the government. If it wasn't for the institution of government in our country we would probably have even less than what we do today. And yes, you may find several other issues/areas where our government lacks, but also be thankful for the good.

Laconius, 1.Wrong 2. Wrong 3.WRONG Amnesty is not the answer to the long term problem created by this government and big business. There is no gap anymore. Do you work for a special interest group to promote this illegal activity? Just curious, your rhetoric sounds familiar.

I don't know whether to be flattered that you think I'm older than I am or insulted that you think I'm a part of one of the top things I loathe.

I don't really know how to counter "wrong" for my first point, since you haven't given me anything to refute. But I encourage you to check the CIA website. I'd consider it a pretty reliable source.

For the second, do you really expect that the sub-minimum wage salaries sent to foreign countries by underpaid immigrants could possibly be greater than the hundreds of billions of dollars major corporations spend in foreign countries? The United States government itself has a huge debt to China - wanna take a guess at who pays for 45% of our DHS? That's right, it's China. Go to a store anywhere in the US and look on the label. Chances are it says "Made in China" and we didn't receive it as a gift of goodwill.

Thirdly, a gap is beginning to reopen due to the increasing amounts of people retiring. The Baby Boomer generation is significantly larger than my generation, and there will be a labor gap. And that gap is hidden now due to job outsourcing.