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Kids’ playgroups can spark mama drama

Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:25 AM EDT
kids-and-parenting, helaine-olen
msnbc.com News — NBC Nightly News
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— As a new mom hoping to feel less isolated in suburban Los Angeles, writer Helaine Olen joined a playgroup with her infant son. But instead of finding the support she craved, she was stunned to encounter junior-high-style gossip, cruelty and cliquishness.

“Women don’t suddenly become nice just because we’ve had kids,” observes Olen, 43, now the mother of two sons and living in Hastings-on-Hudson, N.Y. “If you get a group of 10 women together, chances are there’s going to be one bad seed, and that’s all it takes to destroy the group.”

Of course, many new moms find that playgroups are an invaluable source of comfort during their initiation to the often-overwhelming world of modern motherhood. After all, where else could you find people willing to sit through two hours dissecting breast-feeding schedules or interpreting the meaning of baby bowel discolorations?

Yet stories abound of playgroups that descend into madness. There are fights over whether a special-needs or non-vaccinated child should be included. Disputes over the etiquette of bringing a sick child. Playgroups that disband after one toddler bites another. Women who get “fired” from their playgroups.

(In comparison, the main source of drama some at-home dads report is the frosty welcome they receive when trying to infiltrate, er, join a moms-only playgroup.)

Beyond the playgroup, moms often find that petty behavior can continue right through nursery and elementary school, with exclusionary e-mail messages for a moms’ night out or vicious playground rumors that one wealthy mother had hired a wet nurse for her newborn.

Like going ‘back to high school’
Carren Joye, author of “A Stay-at-Home Mom’s Complete Guide to Playgroups” and a mother in Millbrook, Ala., says what most often brings out playgroup clashes is failure to discipline an unruly child. “When a mom feels her child has been slighted in some way — for example, when a child hurts another child, or takes away his toy — she turns into that mama lion, and her first impulse is to protect her cub.”

Emily Lewis, 29, a mom of two who lives near Petersburg, Va., once received an e-mail threatening suspension from her playgroup organizer because her son had reportedly been pushing another small child. “I know he did no such thing,” she says. “It caused me a lot of anxiety. I always had to be on guard for what someone might say so we wouldn’t get kicked out.”

Lewis eventually dropped out, and she’s vowed to avoid any more formally organized playgroups in her new town. “It takes the civility out of it. Rather than just talking to each other about their problems, people take their problems to the club officers. It just ends in suspicion and hurt feelings.”

Others find playgroup dramas tend to be simple cases of personality clashes.

“It was exactly like back to high school,” recalls Stacey Devendorf, 33, a real estate agent in Lynn, Mass., who never fully clicked with her daughter’s playgroup. “If you worked, had political views, even music tastes that differed, you were ostracized. The women that deviated left the group or didn’t feel welcome.”

Devendorf thinks it’s a fallacy to believe that having kids is enough of a basis to form a friendship. “It’s like going up to a random stranger and forcing yourselves to be friends,” she says. “You either click with people or you don’t.”

Olen, who just published a piece about her playgroup meltdown called “Mean Moms” in the new anthology “The Maternal Is Political: Women Writers at the Intersection of Motherhood and Social Change,” offers an intriguing theory for what’s really behind much of the drama.

She suspects most new moms who reach out to a playgroup tend to be lonely and feeling the loss of societal status that can come with motherhood. But instead of addressing the issues they now share — like the need for quality day care and flexible work schedules — they claw at each other, diverting themselves with petty squabbles.

“People were confronting each other about little things, like who’s being asked into this music class,” she recalls. “But nobody was asking the hard questions, like why are we here, and what brought us to be in this room. …

“When we feel powerless, we turn on each other,” she adds. “In our desperation to get a leg up, we moms bring one another down.”

Today, Olen has accepted that she doesn’t have to befriend every parent just because their children become pals. “I’ve given up on the idea that I’m going to make friends with all my kids’ friends’ parents. It’s not going to happen.”

Ground rules can minimize conflicts
But experts say there are some ways to encourage moms to play nice. One is setting up playgroup ground rules at the beginning, says Sandra Wallace, co-founder of the Program for Early Parent Support (PEPS), a non-profit in Seattle that organizes volunteer-led playgroups for new mothers.

“Have some guidelines,” Wallace says. “What are the boundaries? What will we do if someone bites or pushes? Can another mother discipline a child?”

It’s also helpful to have realistic expectations of what is developmentally appropriate. “Parents often have unrealistic expectations of what a child can do,” she says. “Two-year-olds don’t share.” They do, however, have tantrums.

“The best way to avoid conflicts is to set the group up in a way that encourages success,” agrees Cathy Ward, playgroup organizer for the Durham Mothers Club, a moms’ group in Durham, N.C. Her guidelines: mixing children under age 3 within three months of one another, first-time moms with first-time moms and working moms with working moms, and making sure drive times aren’t longer than about 15 minutes.

Ward also suggests initially signing up for several playgroups to find the one that is the best fit for each individual. “The personality clashes work themselves out naturally,” she says. “Those with strong opinions drive moms to join other playgroups.”

But if another mother is really grating your nerves, should you bolt? Confront her?

“My advice when you don’t agree on a topic is that you should always tell someone their point of view is interesting, that you will seriously consider what they said, and then switch the topic of conversation gently,” says Kay Doyle, 38, a Norfolk, Mass., mom of two who founded the Saturday Club, which runs weekend playgroups aimed at working mothers around Boston. “Getting into a pitched battle in front of preschoolers is never a good idea.”

But sometimes, she says, even someone with good intentions can drop a clunker.

For instance, one mom posted on the parenting Web site YouBeMom about the tactless working mom in her playgroup who, while debating whether or not to leave her job, told a group of stay-at-home moms, “I can’t imagine staying at home and not using my brain.” What followed: “Awkward silence.”

And Ward tells of a playgroup that almost fell apart when one Asian mother called another mom’s bi-racial baby “chinky,” a term intended affectionately but taken as a racial slur by the other dumbstruck moms.

“I always suggest giving someone the benefit of the doubt in those situations,” Doyle says. “Most of the time, they didn’t mean to insult and have no idea what the impact of the comment was. If someone really is out to rattle your cage, just cheerfully suggest to your child that you both go play with something on the other side of the room.”

“Many conflicts result from a lack of understanding,” says Debbie Cole, a regional coordinator for the International MOMS Club, a group for at-home moms with more than 2,000 chapters. “Once people talk, many times it will work itself out.”

Should I stay or should I go?
If someone is causing extreme strife, delegate one tactful person in the group to speak with her about the matter gently.

Joye was once asked to talk to a new member whose laid-back style didn’t fit in. “She came into playgroup, slipped off her shoes, curled up with her feet on the sofa and never prepared her children’s snacks,” Joye says. She also didn’t want to take her turn hosting, a playgroup rule that Joye used to hint that the playgroup wasn’t for her and encourage her to quit. “It was a way for us both to save face, so to speak.”

Of course, if you’re truly miserable, it’s perfectly fine to cut and run. You can always blame a change in schedules or nap time.  But Wallace points out that staying can often be a good life lesson. “Your child is going to go to school with all different kinds of people. The goal is to learn to respect differences in people.”

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Jim-507656

This is the first time I have seen any mention, in the media, of the "frosty" reception thing with stay at home dads. Even though it was just a passing mention, I appreciate it. My son really suffered because I was almost universally rejected by playgroups. I guess I understand. I mean, I suppose it would be awkward to have a middle aged man sitting at the kitchen table while everyone chatted about plugged milk ducts and yeast infections? Anyway, it was a problem I didn't anticipate when I choose to stay at home with our first child, and it ended up being one of the biggest issues.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 7:02 PM EDT
mom2two

That's too bad. My playgroup included a stay-at-home dad and now our families are all good friends. It took us from being just a place for the ladies to get together and helped us all to include our entire families. We're all still hanging out even though our playgroup days are over. Playgroup mamas out there reading this, let the guys in! You may even learn a thing or two from him!

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:01 PM EDT
Tom, Iowa

These playgroups sound great. It's too bad some people have to ruin them. The lack of groups in my area is one issue, but being a stay-at-home dad, I don't have the opportunity to get into one and my son misses out on socializing with other kids. He's so happy and outgoing, but when he gets around other kids he clams up because he hasn't had the exposure.

I love staying at home with him and find infinitely rewarding, but sometimes I feel like we're looking at each other and wondering if we'd rather be playing with someone our own age for a change.

These groups sound so brutal, maybe it's not worth it.

    #1.2 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 1:16 AM EDT
    JustLittleOldMe

    Did anyone notice the articles focused so much on how these groups were for the women/adults to socialize? Isn't it all supposed to be about bringing the kids together so THEY can socialize and try out their new skills amongst their peers? To me, a stay-at-home mom, I think the kids and their happiness should be the focus. If I need to find a friend or socialize, I will do that on my own time. If I should happen to find a mom I click with, great, but I never go to any type of gathering of moms expecting to get anything out of it for myself.

    I think most of the problems we have in families these days is the parents want to make it all about themselves. I know some families where the parents never take their kids to the movies because the movies suitable for children would be boring to them. I'm so sick of the "me generation" mentality.

    I think one of the reasons the dads are not welcome, from what I've seen at the local parks, is that it is the natural tendency of the dads to play along with the kids instead of sitting on the sidelines talking. I am like this myself and I think that's why I do not fit in well with the other moms, either. I've met some dads and we'll be there playing with the kids and we'll throw a little bit of adult-to-adult chatting in, but that's not our focus. The focus will be on keeping the game flowing with the kids, or helping the kids from breaking limbs if they lose their footing on the jungle-gym.

    Tom, I'm a stay-at-home mom in the same bind. My daughter tends to clam up because she doesn't get with other kids enough, because I just can't fit myself into these playgroup mom dynamics.

    I've found if we show up at the local parks around the time most parents get off from work, my daughter will find some kids she can play with for a half an hour before we all disperse to get dinner. It's not perfect, but that will have to suffice until she's old enough to start school. Try not to worry too much, your son and my daughter will probably end up as very confident independent teens because they have us giving our love, time and approval. They won't likely fall into the trap of looking to their peers for affirmation.

      #1.3 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:51 PM EDT
      Reply
      mel-427299

      I tried playgroups for awhile but never got much benefit from them. I once hosted one at my house and had a woman complain about the "layout" of my house. the fact that I didn't have baby gates all over the place was offensive to her. If they work for you great, if not, there is preschool or drop in daycare for socializing and one on one time with good friends.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#2 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 7:09 PM EDT
      nonnie-507871

      It NEVER changes. Young moms with small children will be amazed to discover that when they are in their 60's and 70's in Garden Club or whatever, the Junior High style sniping continues with a vengeance. There is a need to create alliances and to backbite that is just exactly like 50 years ago! "Sweet little old ladies" are mean too.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#3 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 7:48 PM EDT
      vermont98

      Yes, I am finding that only certain people can arrange car pooling together for dance class...even with the price of gas these days...and the girls are all friends (sixth graders). It's more about the moms than anything else! Sad that we all can't just get along!!!!

        #3.1 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:47 PM EDT
        JustLittleOldMe

        Oh Crud, really Nonnie? Bummer. I'm not surprised, I guess. But I was hoping by the time people are in their 60's or older they'd lighten up a bit and learn to let things slide by more.

          #3.2 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:02 PM EDT
          Reply
          annk

          Sadly.. ANY time you get a group of people (IMHO usually women) together on a regular basis, there will be one or more who will rock the boat just because of their "need" to do so. Whether this is intentional or not, they simply cannot help themselves.

          Most people complain about something, but there will be the individual who will complain about anything and everything. They are unhappy individuals who prefer to spread their misery VS join in on any form of enjoyment surrounding them.

          Simply put, if the attention isn't focused on their latest complaint or gripe... eventually, they will pop like a balloon or... more often than not, erupt in the form of the angry volcano spewing all kind of nasty. NOTHING will make them happy... at least for long.

          When one or more of these individuals gather in one place, eventually, they feed off of each other and spread themselves into a group like a cancer. When they have done their best to damage and possibly destroy... they move on and start all over again.

          Hmmmm... this wouldn't be me complaining much? LOL! Sorry, this article just hit a little too close to home for me.

          I am an organizer of a large social group who have the same hobby interest and gathers on a weekly basis. VERY recently, there was a person(s) who finally erupted in their own way and attempted to do as much damage to me and even more disgraceful, to the group as a whole. At this time, we are still taking inventory of their full intent and what damage control is necessary, if any.

          As a new Mom of an incredibly wonderful and handsome infant son, I am looking for others to share my new experiences of motherhood. I certainly investigate different groups and shall tread lightly.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#4 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:12 PM EDT
          oh please-504237

          I never took any of my four children to a playgroup. With so many nasty in-law mommy cousins sniping at the younger ones, and so many nasty stage mommies kicking the older ones in the teeth at their youth orchestra, I thought I'd better steer clear of any more mommies! I can see that I was right.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#5 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:58 PM EDT
          Meemus

          Park/playgroup moms = closed minded, uppity. snobs. Experienced it first hand. Hated it. Gotta luv southern California. So glad my children were never part of it. My kids are still on the honor roll and thriving and, heaven forbid, still don't have police records. Go figure. I must have done something right. OH MY GOD!!

          • 1 vote
          Reply#6 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 9:18 PM EDT
          newdoc17

          A couple of my favorite quotes from the article:
          "...most new moms who reach out to a playgroup tend to be lonely and feeling the loss of societal status that can come with motherhood. But instead of addressing the issues they now share — like the need for quality day care and flexible work schedules — they claw at each other, diverting themselves with petty squabbles.

          "People were confronting each other about little things, like who's being asked into this music class," she recalls. "But nobody was asking the hard questions, like why are we here, and what brought us to be in this room. …

          "When we feel powerless, we turn on each other," she adds. "In our desperation to get a leg up, we moms bring one another down."

          This is SO true! Women who are feeling disenfranchised, powerless, end up fighting with each other over "the scraps left over." I don't believe that women are inherently petty - I thing ANYONE who is powerless can end up like "rats fighting over crumbs." I've worked with groups of EMPOWERED women (a group of independent, free-thinking physicians) and I did not see the pettiness or cattiness in those groups.

          It is also easy for people to pick petty fights as a way to distract themselves from their real problems or issues. Instead of admitting you are lonely, struggling, bored, it is easier/more fun to pick on someone else!

          • 2 votes
          Reply#7 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 9:24 PM EDT
          Tribe of 2 sons

          I went through play group mama drama shortly after my first son was born. I discovered pretty quickly that the same way I chose friends before I had kids, was a good method when choosing "Mom friends". The individual personalities of the moms far outweigh any common ground you may have as mothers. I also discovered that just like High School, if you call someone out on their rude, catty, snipping behavior they either shape up, or ship out!. Either you let one person spoil the group, or the group sets acceptable behavior for children and the Moms. That also means you have to be willing to check your own rude, catty, snipping behaviors at the door! A close look in the mirror may reveal who the real problem is. Women can be a tremendous support system. I personally have sourounded myself with a group of Women (who also happen to be moms), who love me, cry with me, laugh with me, and help me manage the sometimes insane world of child rearing. Go Moms!!

          • 1 vote
          Reply#8 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 9:25 PM EDT
          newdoc17

          My other favorite quote:

          " it's a fallacy to believe that having kids is enough of a basis to form a friendship. "It's like going up to a random stranger and forcing yourselves to be friends," she says. "You either click with people or you don't."

          People definitely need to have more in common with friends than the mere ability to reproduce...

          • 2 votes
          Reply#9 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 9:26 PM EDT
          TC00

          Sort part of the subject and then sorta not.

          I am not a mom, but a nanny. Thankfully I look a lot like the child I watch so for the most part people assume she's mine and are very nice to me. They chat with me, include me in the child centered activities...that is until they realize she's not my child.

          It is in that moment that everything changes.

          I am no longer a sweet young mom with a well behaved child. I am a working women watching someone else's kid and they must avoid me like the plague and their child is no longer allowed to play with mine. It's sad and it makes things harder for the child I watch, most nannies in this area are illegal and don't speak English very well so it makes it hard to plan playdates and such with them.

          Keep in mind I don't lie to anyone and the child I watch calls me by my first name, not mom. I just do not offer up that I am a nanny. If I introduce myself I say I'm _____and this is______. Just like the parents do. On the few occasions that I have said I am ____, ____'s nanny you can literally watch the mom cringe as I reach out to shake her hand

          In the 2 years that I have been a nanny I have yet to figure out what is so wrong with me the moment they find out I am not the mom.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#10 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 10:02 PM EDT
          TC00

          (Sorry not sure why the paragraphs didn't work right, they were there when I typed it and posted)

            #10.1 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 10:06 PM EDT
            Meemus

            Sweetie, there's nothing wrong with you. Nothing at all. It's the superficial women who think that they are somehow better than the rest of us, for whatever reason, that truly have the issues. Sheesh, my husband is an attorney and works across the street from "Fashion Island" in Newport Beach. I never fit in. Guess it's because I didn't see the need to wear designer clothing or carry the latest designer handbag. Oh yeah, no botox, restalyne, silicone or any of that other stuff either. I fit in like a turd in a punch bowel around that crowd. O.k. I do work out at the local gym and my hair is fakey blonde. But that's it. I swear.

            Just keep being yourself. You'll be so much happier.

            • 1 vote
            #10.2 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 10:09 PM EDT
            smalltowngirl

            Thanks for the laugh. You are right.

              #10.3 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:40 PM EDT
              JustLittleOldMe

              Yeah I agree, there's nothing wrong with you. I am a mom and I have absolutely no idea why you're getting the cold treatment from the moms. I have met a few nannies here and there at the parks and I've enjoyed talking to them. I've picked up a lot of useful childcare tips from the nannies. Also, they don't tend to act judgemental toward me because I'm a stay-at-home mom or because I don't have my daughter in pre-school. They are very kind and accepting. I can't imagine what a mom would have against hanging out with a nanny at the park, unless maybe they think of you as "the help" and think they are above you or something. Or maybe they don't approve of other women hiring nannies so they are just taking it out on you. Who knows. I'm still trying to figure out exactly why I don't fit in anywhere. I still think it's because I play with my kid.

                #10.4 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
                Reply
                Jeanne-508847

                Why would anyone assume that just because we're no longer in high school or college, everyone somehow magically "grew-up" and became polite, respectful, intelligent adults? Most of the brats and prats you knew in school are now brats and prats with children. Same for the snobs, the self-absorbed, the geeks, the shy ones, the genuinely nice ones, the remarkably well-adjusted ones, and the rest of us. And that means, whether you're at work, joining a playgroup, or anywhere else that requires social interaction, you're going to run into the exact same kinds of people you've always known. *Very* few people really change all that much, no matter how much they (we) would love to think otherwise. The only thing surprising about this article is the number of people surprised to find out that people are predictable and that they behave precisely the way they were taught/trained since childhood.

                • 4 votes
                Reply#11 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:23 AM EDT
                GB-509261

                Women can be mean. I stopped attending playgroups years ago because of this behavior. There will always be Queen Bees and Wanna Bees. Careful or you might get stung:)

                I found that one on one play is better for play dates and also Moms can supervise a bit more. Large groups are stressful for Moms and children. There always seems to be one "expert" who is the UBER MOM. These women are tools!

                • 2 votes
                Reply#12 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 8:59 AM EDT
                Beth-509582

                My rule is if I wouldn't be friends with a mom if we didn't have the "kids" in common, then I have no interest in being friends with her because our kids are friends. My son can have his own friends, and I've come to realize that I don't need to be best buds with all their moms to be a "good" parent. Sure, I'll KNOW the parents of the kids that my sons hang out with, but if we're not having cocktails on the weekends or going to dinner, then I won't lose sleep over it.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#13 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 10:30 AM EDT
                oh please-504237

                Jeanne is right! And if you don't believe it, go to your 20th high school reunion and try to engage the popular girl - the one who wouldn't speak to you in high school - in a conversation. See how much she has changed!

                • 1 vote
                Reply#14 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 10:50 AM EDT
                hope-506257

                When my first child was born 25 years ago, I was one of the original member of the Mom's Group that met weekly for years, then monthly for more years. We celebrated every child's birthday, all the major holidays, and had meetings and a newsletter. We still meet for dinner and always have a blast! Our group of women got along fine and stood by each other through all life's troubles. It's absolutely possible to have a fantastic group of moms and kids stick together! And it can be one of the most meaningful groups you've ever joined, since you are all taking this new journey together as new parents. We still talk about the kids' personalities as babies and compare that to the way they are now, and we're making plans for a dinner together later this month. Just keep trying--it really can be amazing!

                  Reply#15 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:57 PM EDT
                  JustLittleOldMe

                  Maybe part of the success of your group is the fact it was started about 25 years ago. I'm a late-in-life mom, so you and I in fact may be somewhat close in age. I can tell you if I could have had my daughter 25 years ago, I might have had some success with groups. I think the scene today is way more judgemental than it was 25 years ago.

                  I have seen online fights between moms over someone not using the "right" brand of stroller, baby seat, pre-schools, etc. There is a huge difference in parenting styles and philosophies between myself and women half my age who have kids the same age as mine. I'm far more laid back and un-competitive. I wasn't taken to a pre-school myself so I can't see what the fuss is about them now, so I'm a real pariah among the younger moms when they find out I don't even know what a Montessori school is, let alone fail to have my child enrolled in one. (I actually DO know what a Montessori school is, I just like to feign ignorance to avoid having to explain in depth why I don't give a crap).

                  Occasionally I do meet moms my age, but they have fallen into the same mindset as the younger moms and the same level of competitiveness and tendency to rush to judgement. There is less support and more desire to critique and judge in evidence today, from what I have seen anyway. I'm sure there are happy exceptions everywhere.

                  I'm so glad you had such a wonderful experience with your group, Hope. I wish I could have been a part of that. I commend you for being able to pull that off. It sounds like you all were a bunch of moms with your priorities in the right place.

                    #15.1 - Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    DutchessBlue

                    All this is so true . I am an older mom with kids from 26 to 7 years so I have been doing this awhile. I never joined any playgroups because of this .
                    However ,, this also exists in online groups as well , if moms/children issues are involved. I belong to a gluten free recipe group because I am the one with wheat sensitivity NOT my kids and yesterday I got blasted by a mom because being O- I had rhogam shots with my pregnanies .... I HAD to have these , she doesnt know me and I was being ostracized by her because of a vaccine I chose to take .

                    I told miss mommy the way it was and she declined to discuss it further . I am probably 10-20 years older than she is .

                    Some newer moms just go insane , I have seen it in these special diet groups , obssesed with vaccinations , allergy , ADHD,, everyone is autistic and if they arent, the moms are sure they will be if enough testing is done to the poor child ,,,, I feel like apologizing for having six plain redneck kids ..........

                    I cant imagine these moms in the play groups

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#16 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:59 PM EDT
                    MEH-510761

                    Isn't Helaine Olen the *inappropriate word* that wrote that scathing commentary in the New York Times regarding her nanny, that was pretty much self-righteous, gossip rag trash masquerading as parental concern? I find it ironic that she can even begin to comment on the cattiness of others. Hi Helaine.. stones and glass houses.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#17 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:42 PM EDT
                    dilate your mind

                    I have never taken my only child to a playdate group. What do you expect when you have chain of command or leaders? Try taking your kids ot neutral areas where there are lots of kids and no heiarchy. DUH

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#18 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
                    target_lvr

                    I never really understood the concept of playgroups. They just seemed like a lot of younger moms with out of control kids with no one wanting to control their bad behavior. I have 3 kids and made trips to our local parks. If my kids wanted to play with other kids there, they did. Most of the time they played with each other, which was fine with me. Some parents can be so annoying, you wonder who the parent is and who is the child!

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#19 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:53 PM EDT
                    regular dad

                    I hate to say this but it really caught my eye. My (now former)wife and I have 4 kids in 18 years married. My perspective was, and is...that about 50% or more of the kids in our fairly affluent town were..and are "possessions" and "acheivements" for the parents..and particularly the Moms. Full disclosure: (I have come to suspect my own co-parent of this...part of the reason she is "former")
                    The scenario is..college, career, right mate, right house in right neighborhood in right town , BMW(Saab, Mercades,whatever)...oh! time for junior!! We have everything else. But noooo, don't want to give up anything else to actually raise junior...or 2 or 3! Not career, not my clubs, not my hairdresser, wine tastings or STATUS! So, maybe the male soccer coach of our very talented but underacheiving U-13 soccer team was right. Neurotic daughters of neurotic Moms. Good luck changing this "play group" dynamic!

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#20 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 8:54 PM EDT
                    Real Mom

                    Why do people feel the need for these ridiculous playgroups?

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#21 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:09 AM EDT
                    Molly Tonks

                    First, playgroups are not necessary for children. If they are shy, then they are shy. It's quite normal. They'll catch up when they are mature enough (Kindergarten or First Grade) If you need support because you are a lonesome mom, then go to your mommy friends (or even your mommy) and talk about what you need to.

                    Why playgroups don't work....

                    You see it everywhere. People don't watch their own kids. They just don't. (One of my favorite scenarios is when they leave them in the lobby of the doctor's office expecting the receptionist to watch them while she is trying to answer the phone, make appointments, etc.) Or in the store when they tell their kids to "go play with the toys" while she shops. (which is code for the kids destroying merchandise.) These same people are going to expect you to watch their brats because you are the kind of person that actually looks after yours. The minute, however, there is a dispute and you're the bad guy.

                    Then there's the one-up-manship moms that will bring her kids with Mc Donald bags, expensive ice cream or whatever any other kid would want (but shouldn't have) just to make sure her kids are idolized by the other kids.

                    It's all bad. Best to avoid it.

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#22 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
                    UnBeliever-298877

                    Play group. Shouldn't that be "My child can only associate with those of equal social status and healthcare" group????

                    How do children develop immunities? By getting sick. How do they get sick? By associating with other children (without micro-managed supervision). How do children make "friends"? Well.....these days it is by parental consent because they have no contact with other humans if that contact is not approved. I made friends by deciding which of the kids I was associated with in all of the social settings I encountered were the most like me.....not the most like what my Mom or my Dad or my Nanny wanted me to associate with. I fell down. I actually was allowed to bleed and cry. Why???? Because my mother was no where near the place I was playing. Why? Because she was living life. I was living life. My friends were living life. Don't give me the "The world is different" crap. It is......but it isn't. When I was a kid - amber alerts didn't exist. Did kids disappear???? Yes. Did predatory adults molest children? Yes. Did society go nuts? No. Were all children locked up or chaperoned???? No.

                    The world of "children" is being wa-a-ay too over protected.

                    NO PLAY GROUPS!!!! Play groups are for adults......the kids really don't care what the adults think. If you want to be better than Betty or Bob.......challenge them to a duel or something.....don't use your kid.

                    You are sad excuses for parents. You never should have had children.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#23 - Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:26 PM EDT
                    Real Mom

                    Couldn't have said it any better UnBeliever!

                      Reply#24 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:19 AM EDT
                      Momof2tobe

                      I've had a great experience with my playgroups. They are organized through a non-profit and the ground rules are fairly well-established ahead of time. To me, this is key. I suppose that from time to time people get annoyed by small things, but the women in both of my groups have been able to work it out. Those who don't "click" with the group have usually decided not to join--having a "trial" period is a good idea (a free trial if there are dues).

                      I do think it's helpful if the moms in the group are in similar "places" in their lives--ie, if moms in their 30's are with other moms in their 30's, or if younger moms are with younger moms, working moms with working moms, etc. It's just easier to connect with people whose struggles "match" yours, or whose parenting styles are similar.

                      I can tell you that being in a playgroup does NOT mean you are a snob. Maybe some people just live in snobby areas, but up in Northern CA where I live, if you are staying home with your child you are probably making some significant financial sacrifices to do so, and we do not look down on people who don't join our playgroup. What the commenter who mentioned that might be experiencing is the simple fact that people who know each other tend to talk to each other, and that since they don't know her they might not include her in their conversation as much as she'd like.

                      Remember that most playgroups are run by volunteers who are also the parents of small children. There is only so much new members can expect from the volunteers in terms of making them welcome. At a certain point, the new member has to make the effort to get to know people herself (or himself, as the case may be).

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#25 - Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
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