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Will the Large Hadron Collider destroy the world, or help the world?
As the atom-smasher at Europe's CERN research center is readied for its official startup near Geneva on Wednesday, researchers might wish that the general public was captivated by the quest for the Higgs boson, the search for supersymmetric particles and even the evidence for extra dimensions.
But if the feedback so far is any guide, the real headline-grabber is the claim that the world's most powerful particle-smasher could create microscopic black holes that some fear would gobble up the planet.
The black-hole scenario is even getting its day in court: Critics of the project have called for the suspension of work on the European collider until the scenario receives a more thorough safety review, filing separate legal challenges in U.S. federal court and the European Court of Human Rights.
The strange case of the planet-eating black hole serves as just one example showing how grand scientific projects can lead to a collision between science fiction and science fact. The hubbub also has led some to question why billions of dollars are being spent on a physics experiment so removed from everyday life.
Why do it?
Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York, acknowledged that people often ask about the practical applications of particle physics. Even if physicists figure out how a particle called the Higgs boson creates the property of mass in the universe, how will that improve life on Earth?
"Sometimes the public says, 'What's in it for Numero Uno? Am I going to get better television reception? Am I going to get better Internet reception?' Well, in some sense, yeah," he said. "All the wonders of quantum physics were learned basically from looking at atom-smasher technology."
Kaku noted that past discoveries from the world of particle physics ushered in many of the innovations we enjoy today, ranging from satellite communications and handheld media players to medical PET scanners (which put antimatter to practical use).
"But let me let you in on a secret: We physicists are not driven to do this because of better color television," he added. "That's a spin-off. We do this because we want to understand our role and our place in the universe."
About those black holes ...
The black holes that may (or may not) be generated by the Large Hadron Collider would have theoretical rather than practical applications.
If the collider's detectors turn up evidence of black holes, that would suggest that gravity is stronger on a subatomic scale than it is on the distance scales scientists have been able to measure so far. That, in turn, would support the weird idea that we live in a 10- or 11-dimensional universe, with some of the dimensions rolled up so tightly that they can't be perceived.
Some theorists say the idea would explain why gravity is so much weaker than the universe's other fundamental forces — for example, why a simple magnet can match the entire Earth's gravitational force pulling on a paper clip. These theorists suggest that much of the gravitational field is "leaking out" into the extra dimensions.
"It will be extremely exciting if the LHC did produce black holes," CERN theoretical physicist John Ellis said. "OK, so some people are going to say, 'Black holes? Those big things eating up stars?' No. These are microscopic, tiny little black holes. And they’re extremely unstable. They would disappear almost as soon as they were produced."
Not everyone is convinced that the black holes would disappear. "It doesn't have to be that way," said Walter Wagner, a former radiation safety officer with a law degree who is one of the plaintiffs in the federal lawsuit. Despite a series of reassuring scientific studies, Wagner and others insist that the black holes might not fizzle out, and they fear that the mini-singularities produced by the Large Hadron Collider will fall to the center of the earth, grow larger and swallow more and more of Earth's matter.
Ellis, Kaku and a host of other physicists point out that cosmic rays in space are far more energetic than the collisions produced in the Large Hadron Collider, and do not produce the kinds of persistent black holes claimed by the critics. In the most recent report, CERN scientists rule out the globe-gobbling black holes and the other nightmares enumerated in the lawsuit, even under the most outlandish scenarios. Wagner remains unconvinced, however.
"I don't think the knowledge we are going to acquire by doing such an experiment outweighs the risk that we are taking, if we can't quantify that risk. ... We need to obtain other evidence," he said.
Strangelets, monopoles and more
Black holes aren't Wagner's only worry: He also is concerned that when the collider creates a soup of free-flying quarks, some of those quarks might recombine in a hazardous way — creating a stable, negatively charged "strangelet" that could turn everything it touches into more strangelets.
The lawsuit also suggests that magnetic monopoles — basically, magnets with only a north or a south pole, but not both — could be created in the collider and wreak havoc.
Physicists point out that such phenomena have never been seen, either in previous collider experiments or in the wide cosmos beyond Earth.
"The experiments that we will do with the LHC have been done billions of times by cosmic rays hitting the earth," Ellis said. "They're being done continuously by cosmic rays hitting our astronomical bodies, like the moon, the sun, like Jupiter and so on and so forth. And the earth's still here, the sun's still here, the moon's still here. LHC collisions are not going to destroy the planet."
But how will all those collisions benefit the planet?
"We don't justify CERN or other big particle accelerators on the basis of spin-offs or technology transfer," Ellis said. "Of course, we do have programs for that. Personally, I believe that the most important knowledge transfer that we can make is by training young people who then maybe go off and do something else. I think that's probably more important than some particular technological widget that we may develop.
"I think the primary justification for this sort of science that we do is fundamental human curiosity," Ellis said. "It's true, of course, that every previous generation that's made some breakthrough in understanding nature has seen those discoveries translated into new technologies, new possibilities for the human race. That may well happen with the Higgs boson. Quite frankly, at the moment I don't see how you can use the Higgs boson for anything useful."
Kaku takes a different view: He said physicists will have to do a better job of explaining the potential payoffs if they expect taxpayers to keep covering the multibillion-dollar cost of exploring the scientific frontier. He pointed to the example of the Superconducting Super Collider — a project planned for Texas that would have been bigger than the Large Hadron Collider, but was canceled by Congress after $2 billion had been spent.
"After that cancellation, we physicists learned that we have to sing for our supper," Kaku said. "The Cold War is over. You can't simply say 'Russia!' to Congress, and they whip out their checkbook and say, 'How much?' We have to tell the people why this atom-smasher is going to benefit their lives."
Forecasting future benefits
If past physics experiments are any guide, the potential payoffs would likely come in three areas, Kaku said:
Looking even farther ahead, Kaku noted that a deeper understanding of the universe has always led to technological leaps. Harnessing mechanical power led to the steam engine and the industrial revolution of the 19th century. The unification of electricity and magnetism led to computers, lasers and other 20th-century wonders. Unlocking the secrets of the atom led to the triumphs and terrors of the nuclear age.
"Human history has been shaped by the progressive unraveling of gravity, electricity and magnetism, and the nuclear force," Kaku said. "Now we are at the brink of the granddaddy of all such unifications ... the unification of all forces into a super force. We think the super force is superstring theory, a super force that drove the big bang, that created the heavens and the earth, that drives the sun, that makes all the wondrous technologies of the earth possible."
Will that great revelation come from the LHC? Even Kaku thinks that would be too much of a giant leap. "The Large Hadron Collider will not open up a gateway to another universe," he said. "It will not open up a hole in space. But it will try to nail down the equations which would allow perhaps an advanced civilization to do precisely that, to manipulate the fabric of space and time."
How will the machine do that? Ironically, it takes bigger and bigger machines to unlock the smallest subatomic mysteries — and the Large Hadron Collider is the biggest Big Bang Machine ever built. With its tangles of wiring, twists of plumbing and 17 miles of supercooled magnets, the machine may well rank as one of the engineering wonders of the 21st century.
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 | Super-smasher targets massive mystery | Associated Press | Mon Sep 8 | 251 |
 | Questions and answers about the CERN collider | Associated Press | Wed Sep 10 | 0 |
| Why Would Anyone Want A Large Hadron Collider At Home? Because. | Zack Green | Fri Sep 12 | 4 |
| Europe leaps ahead on physics frontier | Associated Press | Thu Sep 11 | 4 |
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- Public Discussion (808)
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6.7
2.7
{"commentId":2828853,"authorDomain":"turnbull-maggie"}
I am amused that the collider is getting the same reaction from others that I secretly felt a few days ago. I am an astronomer, and while physicists might claim that they do this because they want to "understand our place and role in the universe"--the same line we use--the fact is that they do it for one reason: curiosity. There is nothing about curiosity that is bad or good or noble or unselfish. We are just plain dying of curiosity to see what will happen. Physicists have been known to blow up the world before, so I can't blame folks for being a little alarmed about a project that attempts to re-create the conditions of the early universe. On the upside, maybe the November election will be a moot issue after Wednesday!!
{"commentId":2828853,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"turnbull-maggie"}
- 10 votes
#1 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:14 PM EDT{"commentId":2837739,"authorDomain":"rjmarl"}
Leave it alone, why take the risk. There are better things to gain than wasting time and money on trying to eliminate the universe. This is crazy.
{"commentId":2837739,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rjmarl"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2838182,"authorDomain":"netprophet"}
Spacegirl, you rock.
Also, civilization advances through science and technological innovation. It is about curiosity, definitely, but it's also about progress. The fact that I can convey my little thoughts to a few people from all over the world in a nanosecond just boggles my mind. We've come a long way from that fateful day when some caveman's ass caught on fire.
While we have many challenges facing humankind, and always will, scientific progress- especially frontier exploring, mind-boggling scientific progress like that of this project, is essential.
Yes, definitely watch how much money is spent. I'm a scientist in a different field and I know that there is lots of pork out there, but something like this project is the real deal.
{"commentId":2838182,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"netprophet"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2838556,"authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
The only "scientists" that are worried about the LHD creating mini black holes, are the ones taking a break from writing grant requests for their global warming scam....I mean research.
{"commentId":2838556,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2839078,"authorDomain":"RLMiller"}
It seems many people are focused on the possible harm of the microscopic black holes. Calling them planet eating black holes before their existence is proved seems to this layman as a bit irresponsible.
If these are truly discovered and verified, I for one would like to know the potential benefit of these things! Could they be clustered together and become a gateway to another time, place or dimension? Could they be a source of energy? Could they possibly have any constructive value?
I think the scientists in Texas should indeed "sing for their supper". If they are not smart enough to put a hypothesis on the table that merely suggests the potential for a return on the taxpayer investment they deserve to have their toys taken away, or at least the taxpayer sponsorship of their experiment.
{"commentId":2839078,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"RLMiller"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2839909,"authorDomain":"netprophet"}
Oh no! Pfffft has been sucked into some alternate universe where global warming doesn't exist! Say it ain't so Pfffft!...well at least they don't have to worry about things like evolution and a round earth over there....at least on a flat earth, you won't fall off...that has to be good...I do enjoy Pfffft's comments, though, no matter how woefully inaccurate...
{"commentId":2839909,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"netprophet"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2840009,"authorDomain":"martvol"}
netprophet,
pffft's name has three "f's". You consistently put four in it. Please lets be accurate.
{"commentId":2840009,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"martvol"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2840058,"authorDomain":"zoe-985"}
Is the religious right afraid because scientifics may proove that God is just a myth used by the masters to control vast majority of people??
Of course they are!! this video will tell you why.
http://propagandameatgrinder.magnify.net/video/Zeitgeist-s-hrvatskim-titlom/theater#theater_title
{"commentId":2840058,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"zoe-985"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2840250,"authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}
Did you notice how the proponents lied and said it does nothing different then all the cosmic particles that hit the earth on a daily basis? This is a lie. The collider plans on taking two seperate particles and accelerating BOTH of them to nearly light speed and then colliding them into one another. That is like comparing the effects of a car wreck where a care going 50 mph and hits a brick wall to two cars going 50 mph each and then hitting each other head on. That is a key difference. Regardless, more than a few phycists believe that we shouldn't do this. Even if the chance is remote, what egos these men must have to risk our entire world.
{"commentId":2840250,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}
{"commentId":2840303,"authorDomain":"martvol"}
So radiation from one light source does not hit radiation coming from another source? Do these particles not touch? Do these particles not travel AT light speed?
{"commentId":2840303,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"martvol"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2840307,"authorDomain":"jlfaucher"}
Is the religious right afraid because scientifics may proove that God is just a myth used by the masters to control vast majority of people??
Are you ever afraid of running out of stupid things to say? I am of the so-called religious right, and yet surprise I am excited about this experiment, can't wait to see what happens. Just because I do believe in God does not make me a naysayer of science. Why, I worked two jobs to help two of my children go to med school and one to go to MIT, and guess what, they are church-goers with their family as well.
And who are the masters according to you? You sound like a bloviator.
{"commentId":2840307,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"jlfaucher"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2840549,"authorDomain":"zcuracao"}
You are right proudliberal, but still i would not like to risk destroying the earth, just to prove it.
{"commentId":2840549,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"zcuracao"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2841102,"authorDomain":"ehigh123"}
Oh really,
They blew up the world huh? Which world is that? Certainly not the one on which I presently find myself standing. LOL. You paranoid people. Don't be stupid. They've done this before only on a smaller scale so they have an idea what is going to happen. Paranoid freaks. You let men and women dangerously preach about an invisible man and his rules and his plans for us, all the meanwhile these same creeps ask for money. THAT does not bother you. But one science experiment done by men faaaarrrraaarr more intellingent than you could ever be and you freak out with paranoid delusional notions.
{"commentId":2841102,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ehigh123"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2841583,"authorDomain":"nightshade-1"}
Getoutandstayout-
I am a scientist so let me explain this in layman's terms. Yes, the particals in space they are refering to do travel at the speed of light (just to let you know light is both a particle and wave). They also collide all the time. So they are not comparing apples to oranges. They are comparing oranges to oranges, the compairsion is exactly right.
{"commentId":2841583,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"nightshade-1"}
- 7 votes
{"commentId":2842504,"authorDomain":"genetichuman"}
The scientists will do it for curiosity, and thank heaven for that or we'd still be living in caves. Then the engineers will look at the result and ask now that we know this, what can we use it for. This is how most technological progress is made. Then the businessmen will come, and they will ask how can we make money off of this. Then the politicians will come, and they will ask how can I use this to control the next election.
{"commentId":2842504,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"genetichuman"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2842666,"authorDomain":"netprophet"}
my mistake marttvoll
{"commentId":2842666,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"netprophet"}
{"commentId":2843263,"authorDomain":"Horrified"}
proudliberal-468415 says: Is the religious right afraid because scientifics may proove that God is just a myth used by the masters to control vast majority of people??
The majority of God believing people aren't against science... that's just silly. We use the internet, go to the doctor, etc.
Besides, who says this experiment could even prove God doesn't exist anyway? Science and God aren't mutually exclusive, so I doubt the majority of believers are going to be against this experiment for the ridiculous reason you give. So far the only people I've seen bringing religion into these discussions are the ones who say they don't believe in God.
To get back on topic... I'm not sure I believe this experiment would bring about the end of the world or anything, but I am concerned it could cause local destruction around the area where it's located, or harm those who are actually working at this facility. It seems like it would be hard to have a good safety policy in place when they aren't even completely sure of what they will be dealing with.
It will still be interesting what they may discover, barring any apocalyptic scenario taking place of course. : )
{"commentId":2843263,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"Horrified"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2843269,"authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}
Sep, so your telling me that I am currently at this moment traveling at the speed of light? You will have to forgive me when I don't put much stock into your 'I'm a scientist' schtick. I'm talking about particles colliding here on earth, where there is sufficient mass to feed a mini singularity and allow it to grow. If a min singularity is formed by coliding particles out in space, I would imagine they die off rather quickly because of nothing to feed it. Thats not the case here.
{"commentId":2843269,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}
{"commentId":2845239,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
PROUDLIBERAL? Now theres a stark contradiction in terms!
{"commentId":2845239,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2845583,"authorDomain":"krichardson4"}
The thing I didn't appreciate was the quote from this Michio Kaku, a physicist in New York. He seemed to be saying us non-scientists are a bunch of bumpkins who only care about scientific progress if it will give us better TV reception or something else frivolous, as if we don't care about important scientific advances, just silly stuff. Um, I've got news for him and any others like him - sure I think it's great to make scientific progress, but I hate to see that much money being spent for something that isn't going to find a cure for cancer or feed the hungry all over the world. I don't mind if it doesn't give me better TV reception AT ALL but I think the money could be put to better use than to create a big toy for a bunch of physicists to play with who don't even care about the public's reservations about safety.
{"commentId":2845583,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"krichardson4"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2847725,"authorDomain":"parthur169"}
Yawn. Who cares? Let's ask the Pope. He likes sticking his nose where it does not belong.
{"commentId":2847725,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"parthur169"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2847922,"authorDomain":"arnaudd57"}
Of course this Collider is dangerous... this is a "only" european project. If the US had the privilege to work on this project it would have been good for the World.....
{"commentId":2847922,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"arnaudd57"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2849808,"authorDomain":"justinfixin"}
I dont know how to say it, but i have seen this THING before in my something?. I believe this THING will end all that anyone on this planet knows. I dont know what else to say other than i have seen this THING before.
{"commentId":2849808,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"justinfixin"}
{"commentId":2851062,"authorDomain":"toomanykitties"}
"We think the super force is superstring theory, a super force that drove the big bang, that created the heavens and the earth, that drives the sun, that makes all the wondrous technologies of the earth possible."
'Man shall not cease from exploration,
But the end of all his exploring.
Will be to arrive at the place
Where he first began,
and know it for the first time.'
- T. S. Elliot
What happens when they proove what we've known all along? God is real.
{"commentId":2851062,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"toomanykitties"}
{"commentId":2851310,"authorDomain":"danwill2"}
getoutandstayout, what Sepulchre is saying, is that the atoms(cosmic "rays") that are colliding with our atmosphere, or our moon, are traveling faster than anything we can accelerate, the problem, is that due to the relativistic effects they don't seem to be going much faster from our viewpoint, but from the "viewpoint" of a cosmic ray that cosmic ray is going MUCH faster than even the combined opposing speeds of two LHC generated particles.
At the speeds involved, the real measurement is not the speed , but the total energy involved.
so two opposing particles colliding at say 99.5% the speed of light, would be the same as a single particle striking a stationary particle at something like 99.75% the speed of light, the relationship is NOT linear, and relativistic effects throw off the "common sense" approach to the measurements.
{"commentId":2851310,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"danwill2"}
{"commentId":2866743,"authorDomain":"qualitypress"}
We dont need to worry about this one. Only Black Holes have enough strenth [ gravity] to collapse matter and keep it collapsed as black matter . Read the new book "BLACK HOLES EXPANDED"
{"commentId":2866743,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"qualitypress"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2899934,"authorDomain":"camerafixer"}
CCryder.............
you left one step out of your presentation above................Then the Military will come, and ask how they can make yet another weapon out of it.
{"commentId":2899934,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"camerafixer"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10809851,"authorDomain":"sunblocker"}
perhaps the Swiss are seeking a warmer climate ???...who knows what ??..perhaps mimicking alien space ship technology, a fuel source ???..lots of nuts and bolts there, like a gigantic hardware store..as far as Doom or Gloom, maybe a fast way to take out humanity from catastrophic global events that would bring extreme misery and pain..who knows ???..ride sally ride..one thing for sure; only God knows.....
{"commentId":10809851,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"sunblocker"}
{"commentId":10868997,"authorDomain":"iambillythekid"}
Spacegirl, know any molecular change scientist, that know how temperature, using the specific temperature of a molecule, in liquid, can seperate these molecules, when gas and liquid molecules are in the same matter? Find one, go to You Tube, White Gasoline Vapor, have them read everything, including comments, also see more on EBay, Molecular Change Generator. Nobody believes. when it has never been done before. I promise I won't destroy the world, I want to make it better, give me some help.
Bill Kendrick
{"commentId":10868997,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"iambillythekid"}
{"commentId":2829423,"authorDomain":"zagers"}
"Walter Wagner, a former radiation safety officer with a law degree." What expertise does a "radiation safety officer" have to contribute to this debate? His contribution (other than frivolous litigation) is fear grounded upon ignorance. It takes a 5 day course of instruction to be certified as a radiation safety officer. A radiation safety officer is not a physicist and his opinions deserve no weight.
{"commentId":2829423,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"zagers"}
- 8 votes
#2 - Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:53 PM EDT{"commentId":2837898,"authorDomain":"fyer1"}
Thank You!!! I am glad someone else saw that besides me!
{"commentId":2837898,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"fyer1"}
{"commentId":2842560,"authorDomain":"timbojw"}
Agree. You've got to have a PhD in particle physics to even enter this debate. The whole article was scaremongering bull. This view (end of the world) is only held by a tiny minority of the academic community.... Although perhaps Walter's development of the Hawian botanical garden as pointed out by me-11 below gave him valuble insight which others do not have.
{"commentId":2842560,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"timbojw"}
{"commentId":2845155,"authorDomain":"matthewhyatt"}
Finally someone made a very intelligent point! Now who is going to pull this radiation safety officer aside and tell him to go stand in the corner for wrecking the party.
{"commentId":2845155,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"matthewhyatt"}
{"commentId":2851189,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
These guys do this all of the time. They travel around to the start up of every accelerator and try to get it shut down before it ends the world. It is just stupid. They don't even have physics degrees. One is a biologist, another is a radiation safety officer, and so on. No serious physicists believes this junk. It's the equivalent to the guy on the corner saying the world is ending tomorrow and Jesus is in his bathroom. Its ridiculous. Only the freakin American media reports this garbage because they know it will attract people to their site.
Oh, and to the guy above with the whole "it's not the same thing as cosmic rays" thing. I have a M.S. in particle physics and you are just plain wrong. Cosmic rays hit particles in our atmosphere at much higher energies than what the LHC will generate. I don't know why you are arguing anyways. Let's see, who should the public believe - one of the foremost experts in particle physics who has conducted research for decades or some guy on a blog who says he is wrong? I think the choice is rather obvious. Good try though. Maybe if I need a diagnosis for some disease I can come to you instead of my doctor. You seem to know.
{"commentId":2851189,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2833462,"authorDomain":"me-11"}
@Another Lawyer, maybe you should stop running your mouth off about people you know nothing about. Oh wait, you're a lawyer so I guess you can't help yourself...
Walter Wagner graduated UC Berkeley with a Minor in Physics, and a Major in Biology. Later, he discovered a novel particle in a balloon-borne cosmic ray detector, initially identified as a magnetic monopole. Though its identity remains uncertain, it is definitely not within the standard repertoire of known particles. After a three-year break from science to attend law school, Dr. Wagner resumed work in Physics and Biology at the US Veterans Administration Medical Center in San Francisco, working in Nuclear Medicine and Health Physics. He then embarked on teaching Science and Mathematics, from grade school to college. Dr. Wagner developed a botanical garden in Hawaii, and continues involvement with several professional associations, including Health Physics Society and Society of Nuclear Medicine.
{"commentId":2833462,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"me-11"}
- 1 vote
#3 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:10 AM EDT{"commentId":2837765,"authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
And? He's not a particle physicist. Therefore he knows about as much as a parrot about contemporary particle physics. Which is to say, not much.
{"commentId":2837765,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2840297,"authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}
As I recall, Einstien wasn't formally trained either.
Just sayin.
{"commentId":2840297,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2842582,"authorDomain":"angusjohn"}
Einstein graduated in 1900 from the Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule Zürich (ETH Zurich) with a degree in Physics. His four most well-known papers were published in 1905. I think it's safe to say that he was indeed formally trained.
{"commentId":2842582,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"angusjohn"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2845236,"authorDomain":"matthewhyatt"}
So what? Dr. Wagner's lawsuit is based upon poor science and a complete lack of understanding of particle physics. He should be ashamed to bring such a friviouls lawsuit in front a judge. He has no basis (theoretically or otherwise) to prove his position.
{"commentId":2845236,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"matthewhyatt"}
{"commentId":2850923,"authorDomain":"calaul"}
Sure he is and sure he did. Tell me has he finnally decided to settle on one thing to do with his vast education and experience. I know he should run for president of the United States next. Lol.
{"commentId":2850923,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"calaul"}
{"commentId":2851217,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
You can get a minor in physics by taking like 5 classes. You don't even have to take quantum physics at most places. Give me a break - that does not make him more qualified than particle physicists who have worked with research for the past decades. And his monopole junk was a bunch of garbage too - not real research. Just stop trying to make this guy look credible. He does this at all the turn ons of accelerators. He wants his fame and that is it. Congrats, we have given it to him.
By the way, I read three books on medicine once. Should I go start treating people? I mean I know people go to school for years, but the three books should be about the same.
{"commentId":2851217,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2851270,"authorDomain":"calaul"}
Right on Robert. His minor in Physics qualifies him (almost) to teach middle-school science in California.
{"commentId":2851270,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"calaul"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2837171,"authorDomain":"widemoto"}
So what is the worst scenario that could happen from this experiment? What chances are there that micro black holes could become dangerously larger?
{"commentId":2837171,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"widemoto"}
#4 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:05 AM EDT{"commentId":2839532,"authorDomain":"martvol"}
The worst thing that can happen is the price of beer will go up. Cheers!
{"commentId":2839532,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"martvol"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2839617,"authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
The worst scenario is that the data is inconclusive.
As for subatomic black holes: They would emit radiation like all all black holes. Given that their size is related to their mass and hence their energy, a micro-black hole does not have much mass or energy and will evaporate in microseconds. Even if it did not evaporate (highly unlikely) its small size would not make it capable of swallowing the Earth. It would be billions of years before it was noticeable. All this speculation is a moot point however, especially when we realize that nature produces much more energetic particle smack-ups in our upper atmosphere every day. Cosmic rays are constantly bombarding the atoms in our atmosphere (as well as all objects in our solar system) and there are no black holes being formed. At the LHC the particle collisions are much weaker, but done in a controlled way that the results can be measured.
Long story short - much ado about nothing, which is sadly typical for Americans.
{"commentId":2839617,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2839716,"authorDomain":"martvol"}
This isn't an American project.
{"commentId":2839716,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"martvol"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2840158,"authorDomain":"widemoto"}
radagast,
That was informative, at least now I'm out of the dark hole not having to worry about the black one. Thanks.
{"commentId":2840158,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"widemoto"}
{"commentId":2840586,"authorDomain":"jagwired66"}
radagast, This is a European trick, not an American production. Relax these guys are smarter than you.
{"commentId":2840586,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"jagwired66"}
{"commentId":2843766,"authorDomain":"russiank"}
The worst thing? Did you not read this aritcle? Black wholes. Black holes suck anything that get's by it, near it, or it is in. It could suck the world into it, and no no other generic or any other fantasy world can be in this black whole, that's it no life, nothing.
{"commentId":2843766,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"russiank"}
{"commentId":2850893,"authorDomain":"justin-ruck"}
I agree with Russian-511028 on this. One of the misperceptions is that mass is related to size. That is not true. Anyone, like myself, who has studied astronomy knows that mass is not related to size. Black holes have a lot of mass and generate a lot of gravity, but are not very large. You cannot call yourself an educated scientist if you believe that mass and size are related.
Anything that comes close to a black hole will get sucked in. I don't think that many people on this board know what a black hole is. It is a star that has collapsed in on itself. To be able to create a black hole, scientists would have to create the most dense object in the universe. Not even light can escape it. It is said to be able to bend the fabric of space-time itself. They are the most dangerous objects in the universe. It would take a very dangerous amount of energy to actually create an object, even microscopic, as a black hole. I am surprised that some people on this board actually think that scientists could actually control this force.
As for creating energy from a black hole, that would not be possible. It sucks in energy, it does not emit energy. That's why it's called a black hole. Energy cannot escape from it.
{"commentId":2850893,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"justin-ruck"}
{"commentId":2851252,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
I love it when people mock other people without having a clue. Congrats on being an astronomer, now let the big boys handle this.
You are right that most people do not know what black holes truly are, but neither do you know much about them. I suggest you go study the differences in a standard black hole and a micro black hole. After that, look up Hawking radiation. I think you will be surprised to find that energy can escape from a black hole. I know it is shocking, but true. After that go look at other scientific topics so you don't make fun of people and then have no idea what you are talking about. Oh, and I would give your astronomy degree (if you even really have one) back to whatever university gave it to you.
P.S. And of course it bends the fabric of space time. There is no maybe. Our planet also bends the fabric as does our Sun and everything else. What it does differentl is bend it so severely that the escape velocity is greater than the speed of light - hence, the event horizon.
{"commentId":2851252,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2993357,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
Can we say QUASAR?
{"commentId":2993357,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2837282,"authorDomain":"swamptrak"}
Hasn't anyone ever heard sciences 2 rules of thumb, "It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature" and "Please don't fiddle with the Oreo middle." Seriously though, if we spent a fraction of the time on getting along with each other as we do on things, like this, then we'd be ready to apply these witty inventions effectively both here and on other planets. What a waste of intellect.
{"commentId":2837282,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"swamptrak"}
#5 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:11 AM EDT{"commentId":2843281,"authorDomain":"jeff-froehle"}
I am concerned about comments like Dr. Sonny G's. Humanity has always been inquisitive about what has been provided - by God, if you believe in God. If one believe in God, that God gave his human children the curiosity and intelligence to seek answers. If you don't believe in God, then humanity just has curiosity and intelligence to seek answers. While I don't believe this to be the case, if it is God's plan, or humanity's turn, to end humanity, it will happen. Our curiosity and intelligence has landed us on the Moon and advanced technology, medicine and, unfornately, weaponry extensively. We will, given the opportunity, continue to do so. Let the collider do what it was intended - provide both answers and questions. Finally, let's stop any attacks on anyone's comments - we all have ideals, hopes and opinions.
{"commentId":2843281,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"jeff-froehle"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2843321,"authorDomain":"veronica-herrero"}
I agree. Look at the Industrial Revolution. It was great for a bit and now look at what we are dealing with: aside from global warming for the none believers, think about the water. It's obvious that industrial waste is contaminating our waters and I for one refuse to drink dirty water. What I don't understand is how this will help explain why we are here. We need to first learn to be civil with each other and then we can create great things.
{"commentId":2843321,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"veronica-herrero"}
{"commentId":2849745,"authorDomain":"tasgarbage"}
Wow. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say the industrial revolution was a bad thing. There are plenty of countries who have not gone through their industrial revolution. I'd say move there for a bit and see what you think.
{"commentId":2849745,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"tasgarbage"}
{"commentId":2851150,"authorDomain":"alexd"}
BeeBee: We need to first learn to be civil with each other and then we can create great things.
World peace won't happen, at least not in our lifetime. Are we supposed to put scientific and technological progress on hold indefinitely until that day comes?
{"commentId":2851150,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"alexd"}
{"commentId":2837410,"authorDomain":"jw449620"}
Agreed...it would seem that we have bigger priorities than this.
{"commentId":2837410,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"jw449620"}
#6 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:19 AM EDT{"commentId":2837588,"authorDomain":"maruby1"}
I think we should push the frontier and get as close to the second of the bigbang as possible. and if we can begin to prove string theory so much the better. does the danger exist--remotely possible would be my guess, but Im an historian--up on the popular literture on particle physics, etc but having no math and thus not a cosmologist.
Perhaps the idea behind the resistance lies in the fact that we will show, if we have to the reality of big bang and that doesnt help the creationists very much--God and the 6 days etc. it is the classic war between sicence and fundamentalist religion. Steven Weiberg usually gets things right , as can be seen in his new article in the New York Review of Books. It should be noted taht the Catholic Church, not at teh cutting edge of science in the 1600s has had in its reanks major physics and cosmologists and men who worked on Quantuim mechanics...they are not part of the problem...
The mini black hole idea is related to the novel Cosm about the the birth of a new very small universe born at of an experiment done at the physics research/collider on Long Island. Gregory Benford, a cosmologist physycist at Cal Riverside, I believe and is superb hard sci-fi writer ala arthur C. clarke etc and no the sword and sorcery types (zelazney did both but he is the exception) wote the novel and it is fun. He is thea uthor of amny novel series that is set in its final volume in the bfalck hole at athe center of the milkey way--fun to read and fun to see how science can go. prof Kaku of my sister school. CCNY would agree.
{"commentId":2837588,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"maruby1"}
- 1 vote
#7 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:28 AM EDT{"commentId":2837620,"authorDomain":"miccal"}
Why should huge amounts of tax dollars go for satisfying the curiosity of so few. On something of no real value. GOD made the universe. This was no accident, as people like Michio Kaku would have you think.
{"commentId":2837620,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"miccal"}
#8 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:29 AM EDT{"commentId":2837809,"authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
Mike, I suggest that you turn off your computer right now, or at least turn off you internet connection. They were, in part, created by "the few" satisfying their curiosity. And besides, it's not your tax money that's being spent. It's European.
{"commentId":2837809,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
{"commentId":2837812,"authorDomain":"buzzvision"}
How much did the Vatican cost? All the mega-churches in the world? St. Peter's? THis machine is a BARGAIN.
{"commentId":2837812,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buzzvision"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2839338,"authorDomain":"phil-moorehead"}
Maybe the value lies in giving your children all the curiousity you lack.
{"commentId":2839338,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"phil-moorehead"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2845280,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
Mike. Do you have evidence that a God created the universe or just "faith"?
{"commentId":2845280,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2851036,"authorDomain":"calaul"}
Gee Mike are you aware that no American tax dollars have been spent on this project? This project is funded by the European Union. We had our chance but the American congress, in it's infinite wisdom cut the funding. So rest easy, very little of your money was wasted before the supercollider project was canceled.
{"commentId":2851036,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"calaul"}
{"commentId":2851307,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
No value, huh. And neither did developments in quantum mechanics and solid state theory either - oh wait, yes they did. Basic research always has value as it progresses the society we live in and provides us with new tools to fight disease, communicate, and give idiots like you a computer. Absolutely ridiculous. I don't think half the people on here have any idea how scientific research is done.
{"commentId":2851307,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2851418,"authorDomain":"danwill2"}
Unfortunately robert, I'm sure it is less than half.
{"commentId":2851418,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"danwill2"}
{"commentId":2837684,"authorDomain":"microdot62"}
Maybe it will rip a hole into another dimension like in the movie "The Mist" and we'll be overrun by horrible beasties that devour everything in their path. Oh, I can only hope!
{"commentId":2837684,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"microdot62"}
- 1 vote
#9 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:32 AM EDT{"commentId":2838601,"authorDomain":"sw786"}
No no, hopefully it will rip a hole to an alternate earth where Cybermen will subsequently come through the tear and take over our world. Or maybe it will create a void ship and be full of Daleks. Or both?
(Anyone else a Doctor Who fan?)
{"commentId":2838601,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"sw786"}
{"commentId":2839906,"authorDomain":"rick-graham"}
Any chance we might get the"Beasties" to just eat McCain and Palin? That would certainly justifiy the cost of this thing!
{"commentId":2839906,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rick-graham"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2840344,"authorDomain":"ky-woman"}
Love it SW786! I was thinking the same thing! Or perhaps, like in Star Trek, our experiment will draw the interest of other intelligent beings. However, I have no faith in the inhabitants of this planet being able to handle the concept that other species exist outside ours.
How arrogant of the religious crazies out there to think we're the only beings in existence by some divine right. I can't wait til they are put in their place.
{"commentId":2840344,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ky-woman"}
{"commentId":2841532,"authorDomain":"danwill2"}
The other intelligent beings know we are here, they just don't want to talk to the residents of the asylum.
{"commentId":2841532,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"danwill2"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2837704,"authorDomain":"victoria-westham10"}
Oh well, it was nice knowing you all guys (if i did know you!) :D Only joking, a scientist wrote in on a comment site and said there is absolutly nothing to worry about and they have kids so would they put them and us in danger? Dont think so!!
{"commentId":2837704,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"victoria-westham10"}
- 1 vote
#10 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:33 AM EDT{"commentId":2837738,"authorDomain":"j-whitman"}
Don't loose if folks, we have enough trouble with idiots thinking Palin a pentacostal End Timer is qualified for VP ---- That's more of a danger to the globe
- Little Black Holes going to eat up the world ???? LOL ------- That's like Palin & McCain saying "Victiory is near in Iraq" & little green men are on Mars
Mother Goose wasn't real & no Divine Ghost made the Universe
{"commentId":2837738,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"j-whitman"}
- 1 vote
#11 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:34 AM EDT{"commentId":2837861,"authorDomain":"widemoto"}
What does McCain and Palin have to do with the collider discussion?
{"commentId":2837861,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"widemoto"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2838272,"authorDomain":"stnsfan"}
If one does not understand physics, then attack the Republicans. What we need is more socialism a la Barack Obama, and less science. Jeremiah was a bull frog.
{"commentId":2838272,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"stnsfan"}
{"commentId":2839857,"authorDomain":"gracchus"}
That's funny. Socialism is when the government runs projects like particle accellerators.
For or against?
{"commentId":2839857,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"gracchus"}
{"commentId":2839943,"authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
Politics may well have nothing to do with particle physics, but I get your point.
Many Americans are willing to believe most rumors that they hear without checking them out no matter how outlandish they appear.
I don't have the numbers but I would wager that if you ever entertained the possibility that Obama is a Muslim terrorist operative, then you probably are inclined to believe the LHC will destroy the world. It's all part of the typical American inability to tell fact from fiction and their propensity to overreact.
This bodes poorly for both science and politics in this country.
{"commentId":2839943,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
{"commentId":2840466,"authorDomain":"jlfaucher"}
Rad, don't act so smug. You didn't even know who was providing the funds.
{"commentId":2840466,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"jlfaucher"}
{"commentId":2841594,"authorDomain":"danwill2"}
Europe provides most of the funds, and we supply the "brain drain" as our beat and brightest leave the country due to all the ignorance here.
{"commentId":2841594,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"danwill2"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2842355,"authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
Didn't know I was being asked about the funds, Judy.
I stand by my smugness.
{"commentId":2842355,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
{"commentId":2842964,"authorDomain":"cryssi"}
radagast-
Not typical Americans...typical American media. I am an American, my friends are Americans, my co-workers are Americans.... yet I do not know a single person who behaves like you seem to thing "typical Americans" behave. I do however understand your confusion since the media seems to find the worst examples of human degradation and idiocy to display.
In general-
I think the LHC and other scientific experiments, whether in particle physics or a different field, are necessary for the growth of our intellect and the well being of society on a global level. There is so much more we are capable of doing! Who cares if this is for curiosity's sake.... Does anyone out there honestly believe we would have cars, airplanes, cell phones, computers, internet, prescription medicines, plastic for modern conveniences or even electricity if people through out the ages hadn't acted on their curiosity?
{"commentId":2842964,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"cryssi"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2844844,"authorDomain":"sharatch"}
Speaking of Sarah Palin, all of a sudden, I'm thinking that "Radiation Safety Officer with a Law Degree" irrelevant as it is to anything having to do with Science at least is more honourable than "Wolf-Murdering Fundamentalist Crackpot former mayor of Podunk, AK". I wonder if her kooky church in Wasilla thinks that the Supercollider is all part of God's plan!
{"commentId":2844844,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"sharatch"}
{"commentId":2845379,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
Jim, Look up the phase "non sequitur" in a dictionary. Sound familliar?
{"commentId":2845379,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2845390,"authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
Cryss, then you surely are surrounded by good people.
My point is that most (re-write) many Americans seem to be unable to see the forest for the trees, or are completely taken in by the most negative rumors - even when faced with the truth. There does seem to be a growing resentment or at least a confusion and distrust of educated people in this country including scientists. How many of the people on this thread seem driven by the pre conceived notion that science in general is reckless and is controlled by those with bad designs for humanity.
Most, sorry many people seem to think of all scientific advancement as being unneccessary and dangerous. That is because they are controlled by fear. They are afraid of what they don't understand. I used Obama as an example. There are those who think he's a terrorist because that is the scariest thing that can fill in their gap in understanding. Likewise, there are those who believe that LHC will create a black hole that will eat the world. And you are right that the media -all media- plays a part. It's not just that they parrade idiots before us it's that they feed us full of bad info and fear. Most (many) Americans fall victim to bad info when fear is used.
{"commentId":2845390,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2837782,"authorDomain":"mbartone81"}
I don't see what the big deal is, Michio is absolutley correct, when he said that this people want to know if it will get them better tv reception of internet reception. I think that really is all that people care about. If they came out and said that this would improve internet repction 10 fold I doubt anyone would care what it is and they would just want it. I think it is ironic how so many people who are against this are in use of the very things genertated from microphysics and atomic smasher. the things so many feared when they were first discovered. People who are agaist are because they are naive plain and simple and expect the courts to do the homework they should have to do to find out what this is realy all about.
{"commentId":2837782,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"mbartone81"}
- 3 votes
#12 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:36 AM EDT{"commentId":2845721,"authorDomain":"krichardson4"}
I think Michio's comment was very insulting and evidence of intellectual snobbery. I'm not concerned because I may or may not get some frivolous benefit like improved television or a better way to play music. Of course I have no say, but I'd love to see that money used to research cancer or some other deadly disease. There's probably tons of other worthwhile uses it could be put to rather than a play toy for particle physicists.
{"commentId":2845721,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"krichardson4"}
{"commentId":2845827,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
HARK BACK TO the time of the Manhatten Project. There were small groups of scientists and others who were sounding the same type of alarm because they hypothisized a doomsday scenario because they believed that the chain reaction from the detonation of a fissile bomb could continue infinitely outward from ground zero resulting in an all consuming, scorched earth firestorm.
{"commentId":2845827,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2847058,"authorDomain":"dongle"}
Those more intelligent people working on the project told them that the fission could only happen in the fissionable material in the bomb. Once that was gone there was nothing else that could fission. Only the refined material in the bomb could do that - not the raw unrefined material present hundreds of miles from the explosion. This project was done in secret - the exploding earth opinion was from some of the less educated and intelligent people working on the project. I guess it is just as well that the public didn't even know what was happening.
{"commentId":2847058,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"dongle"}
{"commentId":2851330,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
Kimbie - you do realize they use particle accelerators to try and cure cancer, right? I didn't think so. Stop commenting on things you know nothing about. Please, for the love of humanity.
And obviously what he said was right by reading the message boards. You may have been insulted, but he was 100% right. Most of the people on here (including yourself) have no idea of the value of basic research. You think our devices and diseae treatments fall out of the air. Good luck with that.
{"commentId":2851330,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2854334,"authorDomain":"krichardson4"}
Robert, I'm sorry my comments are such a burden to you and all of humanity. Maybe yours are too if that's the attitude you have.
They don't seem to be building this thing to try to cure any disease. If that result somehow comes out of it, it won't be because they were trying for that.
I still stand by the insult of saying that the general, "uneducated" public only wants something that will provide frivolous benefits. That's ridiculous. That's all I really wanted to say. I wasn't trying to say I know anything about research, particularly about physics, because no I don't. I acknowledged I don't have any say about what they do with the collider. All in all, pretty innocuous and harmless and not at all intended to be hostile like your comment is.
{"commentId":2854334,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"krichardson4"}
{"commentId":2865193,"authorDomain":"rrowland"}
Kimbie - Not to pile on but I am real tired about people going on about the poor, needy, cure the sick...etc. Can't we do anything until all these ills are cured. We invest plenty of money to these ends, but please. There will ALWAYS be poor, sick, needy people. We do what we can, but please we must live and further our human experience. Our fastest and brightest must excell and reach for the stars without having to drag the rest of lughead humanity with them. This whole collider deal will work out for man's benifit anyway. We always find a way to turn new information into a benifit. Maybe that's where you come in.
{"commentId":2865193,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rrowland"}
{"commentId":2837789,"authorDomain":"zorritojansen"}
while science and its progress will always be part of humanity's search to better ourselves, and nothing wrong with that, i see this project as an untimely experiment from which it seems to me, just an average joe, that all we will get out of this one is to find out how the universe was created!? did i get that right?
that sounds exciting and all, but i think the world could have used those billions in a far much better rewarding and constructive way....but to each its own!...carry on techies, carry on!! you may save us all from war and starvation some day!
{"commentId":2837789,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"zorritojansen"}
- 2 votes
#13 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:37 AM EDT{"commentId":2838644,"authorDomain":"ringmann32"}
It is about the unification of the fundamental forces of nature. An achievement that would be more important for humanity than discovering life on other planets.
{"commentId":2838644,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ringmann32"}
{"commentId":2839120,"authorDomain":"charginslp"}
As humans, we are not smarter than the Universe. This is a bad idea all around.
{"commentId":2839120,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"charginslp"}
{"commentId":2841638,"authorDomain":"danwill2"}
Faith, what are you talking about? Nobody is "outsmarting" anything, they are just trying to figure it out, if it wasn't for such people, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
{"commentId":2841638,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"danwill2"}
{"commentId":2843288,"authorDomain":"angusjohn"}
Dear Faith-510080: For someone who has one of the most nonsensical words in the English language as a username, you demonstrate a lot of audacity by even presuming to participate in this discussion. Please 1) disconnect your computer from the Internet, 2) cease your "contributions" to rational discussion, and 3) please, please, please, do NOT reproduce.
P.S. Please.
{"commentId":2843288,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"angusjohn"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2851343,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
Again, stop commenting if you have no idea. That is not the sole purpose of the LHC. Go google things like the Higgs Boson, string theory, graviton, theory of everything, super symmetry, dark energy, dark matter, and so on. They did not build some $10 billion dollar thing to test one theory. Get a life people and wake up. Research before you comment.
{"commentId":2851343,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2994067,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
zorritojansen, ........"I think the world could have used those billions in a far much better rewarding and constructive way"....... Like what? Giveaways, social programs, social entitlements? When it runs out, then what? Discoveries made and theories proven in this "proving ground" may yield reams of data for future scientists for the developement of super efficient propulsion systems that could very well provide us with the ultimate social benefit, escape from this planet when it is no longer habitable, or under the threat of an extinction event from the cosmos.
{"commentId":2994067,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2837801,"authorDomain":"camzilla"}
if it was not for people that chose to do what everyone else didnt want them to do we would not be here typing our thoughts for everyone else to see. curiosity created everything we see and know. it is the definitive force for change in our world. maybe the curiosity of a 12 year old after seeing what this colider will do will inspire him to think new thoughts that were never possible before. people told Ford that his "motor carrage" was crazy and the front glass would shatter at 20mph, we all know how that ended. be a little open minded to the concept that we dont know very much and learning something new is not bad.
p.s. dont be an alarmist, just be nice and never panic
{"commentId":2837801,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"camzilla"}
- 2 votes
#14 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:37 AM EDT{"commentId":2841666,"authorDomain":"danwill2"}
I'm waiting for someone to tell the physicists to "go home and watch TV like god intended".
{"commentId":2841666,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"danwill2"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2849584,"authorDomain":"ladywolfncrazy"}
Well camzilla , thanks to the school system , my 15 yr. old daughter has a new , bright , shiny, macbook. And guess what , while she was searching the web for a current event , she discovered this little gem. No she's not 12, but she isnt thinking how much better this experiment is going to make her life, she's thinking she's going to die tomorrow and she hasnt even lived. Personally i dont think a group of men, be they physicist's or whatever , have the right to arbitrarily test something they can only theorize about. Have you heard , any of you , of Murphy's law? By the way , i am a christian, and i look forward to the world ending actually, but not before its time, and i dont appreciate my daughter being made so afraid by this thing. It is reason enough for me for them to do more studies. Preferrably after my daughter has lived her life.
{"commentId":2849584,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ladywolfncrazy"}
{"commentId":2994359,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
TONIA, She's 15, your an adult right? Sounds like you're exacerbating her fears with your own which are based on what, a soothsayer lawyer looking for his 15 minutes by proclaiming to be all four horsemen of the Apocalypse? Did she have the same reaction when she learned about all the radical loonytoon terrorist infested states with fissile weapons in hand or in the making and their all too itchy fingers stroking the launch button? Far more plausible. By the way, which book of the bible was Murphy in?
{"commentId":2994359,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2837804,"authorDomain":"ethereal155"}
I'm just glad to see that this discussion is not full of comments condemning this project and arguing that there was no Big Bang and God created the universe and all life in 6 days. Yesterdays discussions about this project were dominated by those comments, which I found sad. I guess humans are not as evolved as I thought. Anyway, this project better eventually yield something useful or be a springboard for such, like, for example, free energy or interstellar transportation, otherwise it would be a collossal waste of money. I'm not saying that it is a waste of money at this point since trying to expiriment with this is better than not doing it at all. If no one ever expirimented with the unknown, we would still be cavemen.
{"commentId":2837804,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ethereal155"}
#15 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:37 AM EDT{"commentId":2838640,"authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
The Big Bang Theory is real....Monday nights on CBS.
{"commentId":2838640,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
{"commentId":2842215,"authorDomain":"spunkyk"}
Has no one ever considered the possibility that the Big Bang theory and the Creation theory could be relatively or close to the same thing? Or that these theories could have evolved from one story? In the Bible in Revelations,it talks about the earth being destroyed,and a new earth and new universe being created. Has no one considered the possibility that if God really does exist, possibly even in His own 10th or 11th dimension world,where no one could see Him, that He may have been capable of causing the earth's destruction, and then it's new creation? Hence,bringing about both the Big Bang theory and the Creation theory. Or that,if the Bible is true,and the earth will be destroyed,that man may even be the one to destroy the earth and create a new earth and new universe,maybe even with this Collider in Europe? So what do we have?
Say that God and the Bible are false. If so,then none of this really matters. Ultimately,we will be fighting to prove the Big Bang theory, and the fact that the universe just happened for no apparent reason. It will have been just an accident that produced a wondrous universe.
However,say that God really does exist,even though we can't see Him,and the Bible is really true and is a foretelling of the earth and the universe's future. What then? Are we going to test it? Will we use this Collider,and chance the possibility of being the cause of the earth's destruction and the creation of a new earth and universe as described in Revelations of the Bible?
Will man continue the history of purposing to prove his ability to be as powerful as God/gods?
{"commentId":2842215,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"spunkyk"}
{"commentId":2844641,"authorDomain":"sharatch"}
Well, if the former radiation-safety-officer-with-a-law-degree has his way, even a non-fictional god may be powerless :-)
{"commentId":2844641,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"sharatch"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2994449,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
Spunky. Could you please express this theory as a mathamatical equation. It would be more coherent.
{"commentId":2994449,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2837810,"authorDomain":"maruby1"}
we can always play this game for a minute. Who created god or was the universe simply one of many--string theory (and Reoger Zelazney in the Amerber Chronicles) and the result of cold hard , non-"god" realted probability?
As an historian of religion, I have come to the conclusion that human beigns created the gods in thei won imageand to meet many needs. with the birth of science and engineering, we really dont need god anymore, but do need more training in the sciences so the adances can continue. Enough said...more research, more discoveries, more answers to be found to the really important questions, not some posed in the 3rd, 2nd and 1st millenium, BCE (or AD for you Christians out there)by religious seekers, mystics (or very mentally ill people and social deviants)!!!
{"commentId":2837810,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"maruby1"}
#16 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:38 AM EDT{"commentId":2838015,"authorDomain":"widemoto"}
We have our own beliefs, in the end when our individual time is up we will discover the truth one way or another.
{"commentId":2838015,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"widemoto"}
{"commentId":2841190,"authorDomain":"ehigh123"}
Not if there's no plan you won't. You'll be dead. LOL. Awwww, does that scare you? Go pray. While it's worthless to do I'm sure it makes YOU feel better.
{"commentId":2841190,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ehigh123"}
{"commentId":2842110,"authorDomain":"droshe88"}
Wait, thats your plan, right Eric? No plan is your plan, right?
God bless you, man!!
{"commentId":2842110,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"droshe88"}
{"commentId":2903860,"authorDomain":"widemoto"}
Eric,
What plan? You haven't a clue of what I was talking about. But it's okay, you're forgiven for being in the dark. I'll explain it to you again in another 100 years.
You'll still be will be around right? Oh, sorry I forgot you still don't understand. :-) :-)
{"commentId":2903860,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"widemoto"}
{"commentId":2837828,"authorDomain":"pm2008"}
Agreed +1 with Dr. Sonny G & Spacegirl. I am all for moving forward, possibly making a cleaner, far better world for the future, however it's a whole lot of money that is going for plain curiosity. One magnet that has 100,000 times more power than the Earth's and they believe it won't cause harm. I disagree on that point. It's been proven throughout the years that we don't need to spend $6 - $10 BILLION (folks) on newer technology. Even a drug doesn't cost a billion to make. Expensive, but not a billion, the drug companies wouldn't make them. I'd rather see my tax dollars go for making those drugs instead of feeding the curiosity of the physicists. Let them get private funding from the "space geeks" (lovingly) not tax dollars.
{"commentId":2837828,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"pm2008"}
- 1 vote
#17 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:38 AM EDT{"commentId":2841697,"authorDomain":"nightshade-1"}
Um, it's in Europe so unles your Eurpean, it isn't your tax dollars. Also the dollar abount would pay for (doing the math in my head) about 1.4 days in Iraq.
{"commentId":2841697,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"nightshade-1"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2851365,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
And how do you think we got to the point where we could even develop the drugs? Did that technology fall out of the air when I was sleeping last night? It came from basic research. People were curious and did experiments. These experiments then led to technological breakthroughs which do things like find cures for cancer and give you this computer to type on. You cannot predict what developments and advances will be made because then it wouldn't be called research. If you stop doing research, you stop advancing.
{"commentId":2851365,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2918515,"authorDomain":"psmith98"}
Research is "THE POINT!!!" This could, and likely will, have far-reaching benefits that everyone will reap the benefits of. Perhaps, with this knowledge that this machine MAY provide, we will find out about particles and that may link to DNA facts and more information about how disease is perpetuated. If we can find out more about our "building blocks" than we can build better. The previous centuries of research and "scientific curiousity" has lead to the type of life-style that we enjoy today. Does anyone remember the cell phones of the 80's and 90's? They were called "brick phones" because of their size and weight. Today, we have cell phones that are small, light-weight, can hold and play music, access the internet, take photos and email them to other phones and computers. We have internet via satellite transmission, WiFi transmission, we have GPS for finding locations, people, vehicles, etc... The list is literally exhaustive. The computers we are using today, will look like the ones of the 80's in the next 5 to 10 years, perhaps sooner. Today is Saturday, the LHC has been running for 3 days and no ill-effects. No all-encompassing black holes and no "world obliterating" Revelations!
{"commentId":2918515,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"psmith98"}
{"commentId":2995108,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
The U S Gubmint and the State spent over 14 billion on the BIG DIG in Boston Massachusetts, calling it a marvel of contemporary civil engineering. It turned out to be the worlds biggest and deadliest carwash. With engineering "breakthroughs" like 3 ton concrete tunnel ceiling tiles seated in gridwork anchored to the concrete plenum ceiling with EPOXY, freaking glue! Defects in walls that allow ground water to burst through and deluge the roads, etc. The billions spent on the HSC is money well spent considering any discoveries and theories proven derived as a result of our "curiosity" could provide data for future generations of scientists to develope profoundly beneficial ideas we haven't even considered yet.
{"commentId":2995108,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2837841,"authorDomain":"camzilla"}
oh yea everyone knows that this thing is in europe and we (usa) did not drop a dollar on it
{"commentId":2837841,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"camzilla"}
#18 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:39 AM EDT{"commentId":2991563,"authorDomain":"buffyma"}
Actually, the U S gubmint tossed in a litle over 500,000 escudos.
{"commentId":2991563,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"buffyma"}
{"commentId":2837851,"authorDomain":"rfjmd"}
Maybe USA and EU could find something more worthwhile to waste their money on besides weapons and CERN.
{"commentId":2837851,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rfjmd"}
#19 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:39 AM EDT{"commentId":2837889,"authorDomain":"camzilla"}
we had one in texas and the gov shut it down
{"commentId":2837889,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"camzilla"}
#20 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:41 AM EDT{"commentId":2841315,"authorDomain":"ehigh123"}
Yep, I'm from Texas and ashamed that a pursuit of knowledge was quashed by someone who shares almost fanatical religious beliefs with many, many other sheep. This is so sad. I can't believe human beings are incapable of growing beyond something as flawed and simple and so obviously wrong on so many levels as religion. Jeeeeeez, when are we going to grow up? Has the past taught you nothing? Every time we grow a little further from religious beliefs we advance as a species. That's a fact. Religion stifles creative thinking, art, science, and anything of true value. Religion has taken man's greatest creation which was the concept of common human decency and a systme of ethics and claimed it for itself. Christians and Muslims claim to have a monopoly on concepts created and envisioned long before Christ or Muhammed walked the earth. Shut up and let the rest of us live and learn about what REAL life is about. Go to church and play you little superstitious games and leave the rest of us alone. Thank GOD, LOL, that we have some seperation of church and state.
{"commentId":2841315,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ehigh123"}
{"commentId":2841763,"authorDomain":"nightshade-1"}
This is one of the reasons that quite honestly, and I do hate to admit it being an American scientist, the rest of the world is slowly leaving us behind in research, and also in the number of scientists on average they graduate from college (and an even bigger gap when you look at who goes on to PhDs).
{"commentId":2841763,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"nightshade-1"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2842558,"authorDomain":null}
Amen to that! (oops)
{"commentId":2842558,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647"}
{"commentId":2847185,"authorDomain":"dongle"}
The USA will fall even further behind - unless they get control of their public schools. Public schools turn out students who have learned very little. The main problem is the lack of discipline. Students don't earn the high grades passed out in public schools. Public schools allow students to disrupt class on a day to day basis - even if a student planning to go to college wants to learn - he/she cannot. That results in college students who are not ready for college. In fact - the sorry behavior and study habits has now made its way into college classes. Students there disrupt class, refuse to learn and spend far to much time having a "good time".
{"commentId":2847185,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"dongle"}
{"commentId":2849114,"authorDomain":"Horrified"}
Dongle, I agree. In high school, I rarely knew of anyone who "failed" a class. I went through a whole year only turning in a couple of assignments (parents were divorcing and I decided to be "rebellious") and still passed! I couldn't believe it! At that point I started to take notice of other students and realized that they made it harder to fail than to get an A. There was no challenge, most of the students were bored, and the rest were struggling but got ignored and shipped on to the next grade anyway.
Then I went to college and I was shocked at how some of the other students behaved... still talking and passing notes in class, acting disrespectful and ignoring lectures, etc.
{"commentId":2849114,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"Horrified"}
{"commentId":2851372,"authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
I think most the comments on this board show how little the American public knows about science.
{"commentId":2851372,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rlashlee"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2837890,"authorDomain":"bryan-55-1"}
"After that cancellation, we physicists learned that we have to sing for our supper," Kaku said. "The Cold War is over. You can't simply say 'Russia!' to Congress, and they whip out their checkbook and say, 'How much?' We have to tell the people why this atom-smasher is going to benefit their lives."
Too bad the military industrial complex doesn't get any of this scrutiny as far as spending our money. When it comes to tax dollars the MIC is the true black hole. Another 100 billion for a missile defense system that has never been proven to be effective in more than 30 years, no problem!
{"commentId":2837890,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"bryan-55-1"}
#21 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:41 AM EDT{"commentId":2837904,"authorDomain":"pipper"}
How about $541 billion spent and they have been working on this for at least a generation. I have been following this for over a month since I accidently stumbled across this on the net. It will change things as we know it. I just hope it is in the good way. For the "just in case" senario... I have spent time with my family for no extra reason (not a birthday, Holiday, etc.) and everyone is wondering what is up. I have spent time with my friends, and will save the remaining hours with my most loved ones and will make my peace with God. Get the real Geneva time at www.timeanddate.com. Get the live webcast at . As they state it will either be something exciting fast or really boring.
{"commentId":2837904,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"pipper"}
#22 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:42 AM EDT{"commentId":2837914,"authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
For me, personally, the most exciting possibilities with this are quantum computing (i.e. vastly more powerful and secure computers, possibly able to support "strong" Artificial Intelligence) and fusion power (i.e. the world may finally get clean, abundant energy, and more of it that we currently know what to do with). And this will certainly advance these two fields, if not solve the remaining problems outright, for the cost of 15 days of war in Iraq.
{"commentId":2837914,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
#23 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:42 AM EDT{"commentId":2838678,"authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
and then SkyNet.....
{"commentId":2838678,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
{"commentId":2841764,"authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
Well, there's a simple solution to the SkyNet threat. Don't give it to the military nuts.
{"commentId":2841764,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"dmitryb"}
{"commentId":2837949,"authorDomain":"victoria-westham10"}
Oh and thanks scientists! the first i heard of this explosion thing was when 2 of my three kids came home from school crying their eyes out saying they are going to die tomorrow due to it, and now they are refusing to go to school and im trying to console them! So thanks a bunch!!
ANGRY PARENT!!!!
{"commentId":2837949,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"victoria-westham10"}
#24 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:44 AM EDT{"commentId":2838806,"authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
Good grief....if my kids came home from school, crying over this, I'd find another school.
{"commentId":2838806,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"p-ff-ft"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2840022,"authorDomain":"rick-graham"}
Is it a Pentecostal school?
{"commentId":2840022,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"rick-graham"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2841795,"authorDomain":"danwill2"}
Whatever school it is, it definitely is a "SCHOOL OF IGNORANCE".
It's either a fundie school, or some ignorant lefty arts teacher saying such nonsense because "the money can be spent on much better things".
Neither the right or the left have a monopoly on ignorance.
{"commentId":2841795,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"danwill2"}
{"commentId":2843608,"authorDomain":"angusjohn"}
Instead of finding another school, as pfft sagely suggests, I'd humbly suggest finding some other kids. Just a thought...
{"commentId":2843608,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"angusjohn"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2844696,"authorDomain":"sharatch"}
If I had kids and they came home from school crying about going to die the next day due to some giant sucking black hole, I'd tease the crap out of them till they used some of those brain cells before they atrophied!
You wouldnt by any chance happen to send your kids to some "school" run by Jesus/(insert your favourite prophet here)-freaks do you?! -
{"commentId":2844696,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"sharatch"}
{"commentId":2849209,"authorDomain":"cnyel"}
Hey, ANGRY PARENT; I guess you're not old enough to remember seeing the atomic bomb films and being told to 'stop, drop, and cover.' Watch the building being blown apart and then told hiding under your desk will save you. I remember being in elementary school when we had atomic bomb drills and knowing diving under my desk wasn't going to save me from an A-bomb. Did I cry? hellya. But I also learned to think things through instead of reacting with emotions... maybe a few more years maturity will help you understand.
{"commentId":2849209,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"cnyel"}
{"commentId":2898149,"authorDomain":"camerafixer"}
MoMama.....you betcha I remember those......I also want to "sternly reprimand " [[ aka kick the s.h.i.t. out of.........]] the stooge that originated the outright lie that hiding under your desk would save you.
I'm a "boomer" circa 1948, and never developed any respect for authority. Don't get me wrong.........I sampled trouble with the law only enough to grasp the "rules of the game" learning to avoid the law, and still get away with whatever the hell I felt like doing.
The part I dislike, is listening to people running the United States down for using the bomb on Japan. Japan called hell down upon themselves for the atrocity of Pearl Harbor. That war had to end . Period.
OK.........we used the bomb, having a fairly good idea how much damage it would do. It did not disappoint.
Granted, calling the belligerent world leaders of the era together, or at least representatives from all countries, and giving an impromptu demonstration of our new toy...............likely would have caused Japan to call it quits. Don't think for one nanosecond that Japan has not sworn vengeance for Hiroshima y Nagasaki, despite their faux-pas at Pearl...........20 / 20 hindsight for the win !!!!
The part that really grates my cheese.......... We - the U.S.A. - let one too many foreign nationals too close to the research that spawned the bomb. We should still have sole posession of the technology, if such a scenario were even possible given independent research.
The world also saw the unprecedented devastation. Nonetheless, development continued, and the Hydrogen bomb was born.
The ones we seemed to fear the most, Russia and company, had no intention of calling a pre-emptive nuclear war upon the continental United States. Bold assumption you say ?? consider the present reinvigoration of Russian hubris, Islamic states and their ideology notwithstanding.
Russia, as well as Islam, want to conquer the world in their own sick interests...........they do not want a burned-out radioactive shell. They want our industrial and agricultural infrastructure intact !!
The fact that there are still utter lunatics in this world, apparently willing to use these weapons in anger, is beyond comprehension .
{"commentId":2898149,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"camerafixer"}
{"commentId":2837960,"authorDomain":"loneoak"}
As, a mother and grandmother who is retired from the medical field, I agree with Dr. Sonny G.
Don't get me wrong. I am whole heartily in favor of the aggressive research for all types of disease and terrible maladies that the worlds population is plagued with. Why then, when I believe this Hadron Collider is really going forward on curiosity alone is it still being tested. The scientist say that it could very well help all types of medical research. I say maybe, but at what cost!! NO ONE was there when the Big Bang took place. Why in humanities name would one want to try and recreate such a powerful and UNKNOWN phenomenon.
{"commentId":2837960,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"loneoak"}
- 1 vote
#25 - Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:45 AM EDT{"commentId":2838201,"authorDomain":"joegrind"}
If they do destroy the earth then they would have succeeded at eliminating all diseases.
My glass is always half full.
{"commentId":2838201,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"joegrind"}
{"commentId":2838461,"authorDomain":"widemoto"}
At least you have some optimism.
{"commentId":2838461,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"widemoto"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2841703,"authorDomain":"orangetroll"}
But wouldn't it be exciting if we did find out how the Big Bang happened? And believe me, in science sometimes, curiosity is the only thing that keeps a person going. And, if all these people's fears are correct then would it not be appropriate for the earth to disappear, with a Big Bang?
{"commentId":2841703,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"orangetroll"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2842804,"authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
Atom smashers are the cornerstone of particle physics. Without particle physics we would not have MRI, PET scans, Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging (NMRI), flat screen TVs, satellite communications, iPods, etc. Then there are all of the technologies that have spun off from these projects that were not directly related, but were by products such as the internet. One day we may be better able to explore space as a result of this work with some very real implications there besides just curiosity.
Proving the big bang is not simply the focus of this work. There are many things to be proved or disproved. Collectively the data that will come out of this will help us to understand (first step) the world around us and then to utilize (second step) it to our advantage and betterment. To simply say "what's the point?" ignores the fact that new knowledge is the catalyst for new invention.
Don't you think the first caveman to play with fire was probably told to leave it alone, that it was a waste of time, or that the power of the gods' wasn't for man to have?
{"commentId":2842804,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"hoosontop"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2850298,"authorDomain":"dmccreedy"}
Radagast - very well stated and in layman's terms. You hit the point right on. Thanks, I can leave now.
{"commentId":2850298,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"dmccreedy"}
{"commentId":2851017,"authorDomain":"drbacon"}
Advances in science have always met with it's critics. In the 1400's even though science had proven that the earth was round there were those skeptics who were convinced that Christopher Columbus would sail off the end of the earth. "Man will never fly" said the critics when Leonardo Da-vinci first conjured up the idea. "Man will never land on the moon", "Man will never visit other planets". It seems that we are always afraid of any advances in science that we do not understand. Now everyone is getting excited about this over exaggerated concern of "BLACK HOLES' eating away at the earth. This is only a theory, a conjecture, if you will, and has no basis in scientific fact. If you want to worry about the destruction of the earth may I suggest that you think about the world wide arsenal of nuclear weapons with the capability of annihilating all life a hundred times over, and how they are now falling into the hands of radical, irrational ne'r-do-wells.
Super-collider's have been around for years now with no harmful effects. This Hadron Collider will also be proven to be harmless and the benefits will be astounding.
{"commentId":2851017,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"drbacon"}
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