Log In | Register
808 Comments
Print
msnbc.com NewsImages 
(showing 1 of 2 photos)
(showing 1 of 2 photos)advertisement
Will the Large Hadron Collider destroy the world, or help the world?
As the atom-smasher at Europe's CERN research center is readied for its official startup near Geneva on Wednesday, researchers might wish that the general public was captivated by the quest for the Higgs boson, the search for supersymmetric particles and even the evidence for extra dimensions.
But if the feedback so far is any guide, the real headline-grabber is the claim that the world's most powerful particle-smasher could create microscopic black holes that some fear would gobble up the planet.
The black-hole scenario is even getting its day in court: Critics of the project have called for the suspension of work on the European collider until the scenario receives a more thorough safety review, filing separate legal challenges in U.S. federal court and the European Court of Human Rights.
The strange case of the planet-eating black hole serves as just one example showing how grand scientific projects can lead to a collision between science fiction and science fact. The hubbub also has led some to question why billions of dollars are being spent on a physics experiment so removed from everyday life.
Why do it?
Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York, acknowledged that people often ask about the practical applications of particle physics. Even if physicists figure out how a particle called the Higgs boson creates the property of mass in the universe, how will that improve life on Earth?
"Sometimes the public says, 'What's in it for Numero Uno? Am I going to get better television reception? Am I going to get better Internet reception?' Well, in some sense, yeah," he said. "All the wonders of quantum physics were learned basically from looking at atom-smasher technology."
Kaku noted that past discoveries from the world of particle physics ushered in many of the innovations we enjoy today, ranging from satellite communications and handheld media players to medical PET scanners (which put antimatter to practical use).
"But let me let you in on a secret: We physicists are not driven to do this because of better color television," he added. "That's a spin-off. We do this because we want to understand our role and our place in the universe."
About those black holes ...
The black holes that may (or may not) be generated by the Large Hadron Collider would have theoretical rather than practical applications.
If the collider's detectors turn up evidence of black holes, that would suggest that gravity is stronger on a subatomic scale than it is on the distance scales scientists have been able to measure so far. That, in turn, would support the weird idea that we live in a 10- or 11-dimensional universe, with some of the dimensions rolled up so tightly that they can't be perceived.
Some theorists say the idea would explain why gravity is so much weaker than the universe's other fundamental forces — for example, why a simple magnet can match the entire Earth's gravitational force pulling on a paper clip. These theorists suggest that much of the gravitational field is "leaking out" into the extra dimensions.
"It will be extremely exciting if the LHC did produce black holes," CERN theoretical physicist John Ellis said. "OK, so some people are going to say, 'Black holes? Those big things eating up stars?' No. These are microscopic, tiny little black holes. And they’re extremely unstable. They would disappear almost as soon as they were produced."
Not everyone is convinced that the black holes would disappear. "It doesn't have to be that way," said Walter Wagner, a former radiation safety officer with a law degree who is one of the plaintiffs in the federal lawsuit. Despite a series of reassuring scientific studies, Wagner and others insist that the black holes might not fizzle out, and they fear that the mini-singularities produced by the Large Hadron Collider will fall to the center of the earth, grow larger and swallow more and more of Earth's matter.
Ellis, Kaku and a host of other physicists point out that cosmic rays in space are far more energetic than the collisions produced in the Large Hadron Collider, and do not produce the kinds of persistent black holes claimed by the critics. In the most recent report, CERN scientists rule out the globe-gobbling black holes and the other nightmares enumerated in the lawsuit, even under the most outlandish scenarios. Wagner remains unconvinced, however.
"I don't think the knowledge we are going to acquire by doing such an experiment outweighs the risk that we are taking, if we can't quantify that risk. ... We need to obtain other evidence," he said.
Strangelets, monopoles and more
Black holes aren't Wagner's only worry: He also is concerned that when the collider creates a soup of free-flying quarks, some of those quarks might recombine in a hazardous way — creating a stable, negatively charged "strangelet" that could turn everything it touches into more strangelets.
The lawsuit also suggests that magnetic monopoles — basically, magnets with only a north or a south pole, but not both — could be created in the collider and wreak havoc.
Physicists point out that such phenomena have never been seen, either in previous collider experiments or in the wide cosmos beyond Earth.
"The experiments that we will do with the LHC have been done billions of times by cosmic rays hitting the earth," Ellis said. "They're being done continuously by cosmic rays hitting our astronomical bodies, like the moon, the sun, like Jupiter and so on and so forth. And the earth's still here, the sun's still here, the moon's still here. LHC collisions are not going to destroy the planet."
But how will all those collisions benefit the planet?
"We don't justify CERN or other big particle accelerators on the basis of spin-offs or technology transfer," Ellis said. "Of course, we do have programs for that. Personally, I believe that the most important knowledge transfer that we can make is by training young people who then maybe go off and do something else. I think that's probably more important than some particular technological widget that we may develop.
"I think the primary justification for this sort of science that we do is fundamental human curiosity," Ellis said. "It's true, of course, that every previous generation that's made some breakthrough in understanding nature has seen those discoveries translated into new technologies, new possibilities for the human race. That may well happen with the Higgs boson. Quite frankly, at the moment I don't see how you can use the Higgs boson for anything useful."
Kaku takes a different view: He said physicists will have to do a better job of explaining the potential payoffs if they expect taxpayers to keep covering the multibillion-dollar cost of exploring the scientific frontier. He pointed to the example of the Superconducting Super Collider — a project planned for Texas that would have been bigger than the Large Hadron Collider, but was canceled by Congress after $2 billion had been spent.
"After that cancellation, we physicists learned that we have to sing for our supper," Kaku said. "The Cold War is over. You can't simply say 'Russia!' to Congress, and they whip out their checkbook and say, 'How much?' We have to tell the people why this atom-smasher is going to benefit their lives."
Forecasting future benefits
If past physics experiments are any guide, the potential payoffs would likely come in three areas, Kaku said:
Looking even farther ahead, Kaku noted that a deeper understanding of the universe has always led to technological leaps. Harnessing mechanical power led to the steam engine and the industrial revolution of the 19th century. The unification of electricity and magnetism led to computers, lasers and other 20th-century wonders. Unlocking the secrets of the atom led to the triumphs and terrors of the nuclear age.
"Human history has been shaped by the progressive unraveling of gravity, electricity and magnetism, and the nuclear force," Kaku said. "Now we are at the brink of the granddaddy of all such unifications ... the unification of all forces into a super force. We think the super force is superstring theory, a super force that drove the big bang, that created the heavens and the earth, that drives the sun, that makes all the wondrous technologies of the earth possible."
Will that great revelation come from the LHC? Even Kaku thinks that would be too much of a giant leap. "The Large Hadron Collider will not open up a gateway to another universe," he said. "It will not open up a hole in space. But it will try to nail down the equations which would allow perhaps an advanced civilization to do precisely that, to manipulate the fabric of space and time."
How will the machine do that? Ironically, it takes bigger and bigger machines to unlock the smallest subatomic mysteries — and the Large Hadron Collider is the biggest Big Bang Machine ever built. With its tangles of wiring, twists of plumbing and 17 miles of supercooled magnets, the machine may well rank as one of the engineering wonders of the 21st century.
61 Votes- Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
Published to:
- All of Newsvine
- Groups: none
- Regions: none
 | Super-smasher targets massive mystery | Associated Press | Mon Sep 8 | 251 |
 | Questions and answers about the CERN collider | Associated Press | Wed Sep 10 | 0 |
| Why Would Anyone Want A Large Hadron Collider At Home? Because. | Zack Green | Fri Sep 12 | 4 |
| Europe leaps ahead on physics frontier | Associated Press | Thu Sep 11 | 4 |
 | How a stroll to the office may have solved the universe's biggest mystery | scotsman.com | Thu Sep 11 | 1 |
- Public Discussion (808)
What's this?
Who's leading the conversation?
This visualization below allows you to see the impact that each user
has on the current conversation.
The top row contains the group of users who have had the most impact, the 2nd
row the group of users who have had the 2nd most impact (et cetera).
Users with similar impact are grouped together, and the average score of the group
is shown to the left of the group. The author of the article is also shown on the
left, in their corresponding group.
Each user's score is based on the number of comments the user has made plus the
number of votes their comments have received. The scores are calculated relative
one another, so while their absolute value is not particularly important, their
relative difference does indicate a larger difference in impact on the conversation.
1.0
0.8
0.5
{"commentId":2998313,"authorDomain":"kirby-k"}
I am a mother of 2 beautiful girls and the LHC worries me. Can anyone say for a fact this machine is safe. If not, then nobody should be selfish for curiosity to put my kids or anyone Else's life on the line. I wanted to comment to drbacon, It is very scary to know nuclear weapons are in hands of radicals. You said "advances in science has always met with it's critics", well didn't science have something to do with nuclear weapons? I think the LHC is a waste of money and a waste of good land God gave us and better use could have went to the land and money. Is wanting to know everything that important to you people? THE LHC IS MASSIVE and something this size could do us all harm. I hope and pray selfishness doesn't ruin innocent lives. While you have read this I know some of you have chuckled, rolled your eyes, or whatever, it doesn't matter because I did the same to alot of the comments made.
{"commentId":2998313,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"kirby-k"}
#401 - Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:38 AM EDT{"commentId":3045649,"authorDomain":"v1111"}
Story has it, the Lost City of Atlantis was destroyed by it's people...using Crystal powers...
It seems we are repeating history ...if this story holds true...
{"commentId":3045649,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"v1111"}
#402 - Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:58 PM EDT{"commentId":3051872,"authorDomain":"hdzjjg"}
I think that it is ridiculous how some people just make more problems for the world. Instead of wasting time and money on a needless science experiment, (which could potentially cause unforeseen consequences), why not use the money for the good of mankind, like feeding the hungry, helping the poor, finding cures for cancer, AIDS, and other diseases, etc... This is just another example of power-hungry people who are more concerned with playing God than actually helping the people of the world.
{"commentId":3051872,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"hdzjjg"}
#403 - Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:28 PM EDT{"commentId":3232483,"authorDomain":"joemccormack-65"}
Now that, Heather, was well said. You would think, with all the money there is in the world, these things you speak of would be nothing but a faded memory. But the ugly truth is, projects like these, and others that are more ridiculous, to use your words, or word in this case, takes precedence over issues that truly matter, and always will. That is unless, we, humanity, make real changes in the heart and become the loving, caring people that God, our father, wants us to be. And although this universal change seems way beyond impossible at this current time, I have hope it can happen. After all, when people put their heads together, and are going in the same direction, what is really beyond impossible for us.
{"commentId":3232483,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"joemccormack-65"}
{"commentId":3104290,"authorDomain":"joemccormack-65"}
I was thinking. How many people really know how a black hole works. I mean, does the average person understand how they form, and how they grow?
Now I'm not saying that the average person is stupid, or that I know everything about this subject, but I can say, with some confidence, that I do know enough to get into trouble. With that said, lets take a closer look at this subject.
As you may, or may not know, a black hole is formed when a star collapses in on itself, and continues to do so forever and ever, or so they think. You see, no one really knows if this is indeed the case, all hypothesis are mathematical in nature, because no light can escape the massive gravitational pull. And since no light, or anything else, like wavelengths for example, can escape from the black hole, past the event horizon of course, then they can't analyze what's really happening in the center of this anomaly.
But there is one thing they do know for sure, and that is this: when one is created, it begins to suck in all the matter around it, like water spinning down a drain, and destroys it. But again, they don't really know if such matter is really destroyed because of the reason I mentioned above. This, of course, only seems logical that matter is torn apart, but they can't say for sure. I digress.
Now stop and think about that for a moment. You have an anomaly that, when created, continuously implodes in on itself, and will then eat all matter it encounters.
So this begs these questions.
One: if a black hole is created, small or massive, and such a chain reaction is started, and sustained, how could we stop it from growing if all the pieces are in place to allow it to do so?
And two: what is made of matter. Everything: you say. Yip, that's right. Everything! Me. You. The world.
So, given the fact, we don't really know that much about black holes in the first place, although we do know about their nature, I ask you this: why, in the world, are we even messing around with this thing?
Maybe the reason we keep doing crazy things like this, in the name of humanity, is because, we have become to complacent to realize just how dangerous somethings can really be.
{"commentId":3104290,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"joemccormack-65"}
#404 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:05 AM EDT{"commentId":3132957,"authorDomain":"moorecassie"}
What concerns me is that after running only one day it has been shut off for possibly 2 months for repairs. What happens when it goes full force in the spring and something should go wrong where they can't shut it down..or the coolers(that keep it bellow freezing levels for when it heats up to 10,000 times the heat of the sun) stop working? I think they need to think this through more. Who can we turn to in order to stop it all together? Why is there so little media coverage on something so big? Something doesn't make sense about all of this as to why they are keeping such a low profile.
{"commentId":3132957,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"moorecassie"}
- 1 vote
#405 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:30 PM EDT{"commentId":3133779,"authorDomain":"joemccormack-65"}
R2d2, I agree with you. There are a lot of things, I think, that still need to be understood, and thought through.
And to reply to your other question, about the media coverage. I think it is politics as usual. Someone, somewhere, is working to keep this out of the public eye. Because when it was in the public eye, look at the negative reaction that came about once that happened. This kind of reaction can not be good for the funding of this project.
{"commentId":3133779,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"joemccormack-65"}
- 1 vote
#406 - Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:07 PM EDT{"commentId":4317017,"authorDomain":"kdickinson3"}
The tower of babel was the first such experiment, and the carnal mind has not changed any. What these people are trying to do is disprove that God created the heavens and the earth. It is called searching for the God particle. Be patient lads, you are going to meet Him one of these days, and it will not be on equal terms! The amount of intelligence that went into the building of the universe was to what you are doing, is the difference of what Sir Issac Newton did to discover gravity, compared to what Einstein did to discover how to split the atom! My question is whyyou don't just believe what God said? Quit calling Him a liar, like yourselves! You sound sooo much like the Devil that it isn't even funny. Because you are filled with unbelief, you will probably find some more things that will cause you to even question more not less. You are never going to be satisfied until you quit your rebellion, and seek God, that peradventure that He might condescend to speak to you, If He never calls you you could not get saved if you wanted to, and you don't! God only calls those who will answer His call, and say "Here I am, Lord, what is it you want me to do! When you hear His voice, it is the sweetest sound in the universe! You know who it is and all you want to do is to do His will. and that is your fondest wish from that moment until you are called into His presence. Seek God! absolutely, only do it for an unselfish reason, not just so that you can go to heaven, and escape hell, Do it because of who He is, seek to glorify Him because of what He is, He is worthy of all of our admiration, our love and our service. While you serve Him in this manner, you will be unconcerned about your reward, your reward is the privilege of service to Him. He will take care of everything else. James Basil Dickinson
{"commentId":4317017,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"kdickinson3"}
#407 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 11:51 PM EST{"commentId":7871373,"authorDomain":"canbsafe"}
Fission, Fusion, now collision. Theroy. Based on ones idea that it might!!!! work. Has anyone thought about a contingency plan. Just based on the theroy that somthing might go horribly wrong.
{"commentId":7871373,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"canbsafe"}
#408 - Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:43 AM EDT{"commentId":7971407,"authorDomain":"nominal-ekrash"}
OK, here goes...its great that we're on the brink of discovery of potentially entirely new realms of physics with the LHC. Hopefully we will discover new particles and interactions to add to our catalogs, but we should not limit ourselves to experimenting with just a few of the most common isotopes. We would most definitely want to know what new particles are hidden behind every flavor of atomic elements and theoretically predict interactions of those elements which would lead to a greater unified theory or model of everything Einstein would have hoped for. But we are basically just cataloging those collisions and we dont really understand the reason why quarks are quarks or why they were generated, the same for muons and gluons, etc. If we did have a greater understanding of those sub-particles, we know we can create them as by products from collisions, we know their mass, spin, and even possibly specific gravity, and our eyes are just wide open with wonder like a child looking through a telescope for the first time. We do not know how we could harness the energies of all of these particles, or why we would want to mass produce them for specific purposes, say metallurgy, for example. We do not know how to fuse all of the elements or even if smashing atoms through fused atoms would create more energy or if the fusion process could sustain being split in billionths of seconds at a know frequency or if that would even make the fusion process more efficient, and what atomic nuclei element sources might favor enhanced fusion processes as such. Yes there is much more to learn and we are barely no more advanced in discovering new forms of energy than our current nuclear reactors and fissile uranium. Lets start finding out why we would want to have lots of very small atom smashers that can either mass produce various types or forms of energy or convert them to energy in ways previously unimagined. Future space ship engines may be built upon super-collider technology, smashed atoms converted to fusion in a real engine, or converted to a form of energy shielding made to interact with the hull material those future space ships would be constructed from; a muon-gluon shield, or a quark anti-quark space-time expanding bubble shield that would allow for theoretical travel at the speed of light, or anti-gravity defying technology. So of what use could we possibly put quarks, muons, gluons, sleptons...etc to work for us? How can those particles be split or fused or manipulated to work together to achieve a beneficial commonplace result or daily use? Do the same particle types produced by collisions from different isotopes produce the same observed characteristics for those particles, and how would they react or behave together if the collisions of the two isotopes were predictable, and are their sub-particle products identical or are they characteristically different because they were produced-collided from entirely different atomic nuclei. Only a super collider capable of simultaneous collisions and from multiple types of nuclear isotopes could answer that. Similarly the reason for the discovery of favorable elements in current succesful fusion experiements. These are the questions that to me makes physics and projects such as the LHC worth waiting for new discoveries.
{"commentId":7971407,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"nominal-ekrash"}
#409 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 3:55 PM EDT{"commentId":8023293,"authorDomain":"ray4a"}
And the world is FLAT!!!!!!!!!! Stupid is as stupid does, we as humans will never agree on anything. That is WHY they will do these experiments, so they can show the DOUBTING THOMAS'ES OUT THERE THAT THE WORLD is ROUND AND WE WILL NOT BE GOBBLED UP BY A BLACK HOLE.
If these purveyers of doom want to worry about something maybe they should worry about clean water supplies, or Codex Alimentarius, or another asteroid hitting the earth. Maybe they could HELP humanity and think of ways to save it from these MORE IMPORTANT dangers.
{"commentId":8023293,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"ray4a"}
#410 - Sat Jul 4, 2009 12:26 PM EDT{"commentId":10406136,"authorDomain":"breelaboy"}
{"commentId":10435619,"authorDomain":"brianalampton"}
{"commentId":10832461,"authorDomain":"savantpn"}
OK I’ve read a number of "it will cause the end of the world", "just let it be", or "don't take a chance" comments and had to add this two cents worth.
Foolish head in the sand doomsayers have always fought progress but happily accepted the benefits from whatever pet project that had frightened their timid souls. Guess it’s just the nature of the meek.
Hell, sometimes the doomsayers are the very scientists that are involved with the projects they work upon. Don't forget that Enrico Fermi took part in a pool for the scientists on the Manhattan Project... and his bet was "Whether or not the initial explosion of the first atomic weapon at Trinity Site, New Mexico, would cause a cascade ignition of the atmosphere into a global consumption of the entire planet”... NO JOKE he really did take this part of the pool running back in July of 1945.
And we’re still here!!!!!!!!
So to all you hide behind your mamma’s skirts, progress stops here, and gee I guess my education was truly a waste type of beings... I say sit back relax. Prop your feet up, pop open another beer and enjoy the sunshine cause if the end of the world comes tomorrow there isn’t anything you can do about it aways!!
Savant
{"commentId":10832461,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"savantpn"}
#413 - Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:56 PM EST{"commentId":10870214,"authorDomain":"oaktree-1217860"}
You can not compare a nuclear reaction to a black hole. Nuclear fission takes place at more lower temperatures than in a black hole. Let us remember that stars (suns) are what the black holes feed upon. Aslo remember that a black hole in my limited understanding of the theory is a singularity, a point of no return.
So, if we are careless enough to create a reaction that would indeed create temperatures (energy) at levels that will create black holes then we did not do our homework well enough. I believe that the consequences should be thoroughly understood before tying to reach such temperatures.
{"commentId":10870214,"threadId":"352616","contentId":"1842647","authorDomain":"oaktree-1217860"}
#414 - Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:06 PM EST{"canLink":false,"threadId":"352616","isPrivate":false}
You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead. |
As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
Start Tracking
Stop TrackingCOMPANY STUFF:
LEGAL STUFF:
- © 2005-2009 Newsvine, Inc. |
- Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
- Newsvine is a property of
