Breakthrough seen on bailout

I agree. In the 70's solar was a "new thing". I knew a family that put one solar panel on the top of their house and was selling juice back to the electric company. People wanted fuel efficient vehicles. You lived in houses that you could afford.

Then Americans went through the gluttonous 80's and 90's. They wanted vehicles and houses and the bigger the better. How driving an insanely large vehicle became a status symbol in this country I'll never understand.

Now we realize that we need fuel efficient and alternative energy vehicles and the auto industry says to us: "gee, we don't how...we'll need a handout from the government to be able to develop this technology...and it will take years..."

Really? NASA can make a spaceship that orbits Jupiter, but can't improve on the gas engine that was developed 100 years ago? Really???

This reminds me of a PBS documentary some years ago about how the huge automakers of the day colluded to put the trolley/light rail system, that laced America about a hundred years ago, out of business.
My relatives could travel from Ft. Wayne, IN, to Lima, OH, for example, by light rail. The old depot was rotting in the elements but still distinguishable, in Middle Point, OH, (middle of nowhere) some years back when I drove by my old auntie's house. In Dayton, OH, (and other towns) in some areas the metal tracks are still visible in the streets. Rail right-of-ways were sold off in different areas. Maybe there will be a return to this public transit system out of necessity? San Diego's is improving, but has a ways to go before it comes close to back East. I just got my auto insurance, and in Cali, with two teenagers, the bill is, no kidding, is almost $3,000. Between that and the cost of fuel, public transportation is looking pretty good!

Who's the greater fool, the fool or the on the who follows him? How many people here are going to bust yoneeze for bad math? I mean, he obviously did not pay attention to the amounts during the stimulus program, but what the hey? A wild idea is the stuff of urban legends- Snopes is full of those things.

His cut-n-paste item is irrelevant, considering the mind numbing rape of the American public. I would rather have had an encounter with a pickpocket on the subway, than to have been ROLLED by my government for the behest of the con men on Wall Street.

Keep in mind- these people made fortunes large and small by abusing an unregulated environment, and screwing the nation's future. Do any of you seriously think America's future is undiminished here? The financial recklessness of war and profit will likely mark the end of the American Era.

I really thought, or hoped, that 2008 might be the time that a major party candidate would run on a platform of a major energy initiative - along the lines of the 60's goal of putting a man on the moon within a decade. Instead, they are giving it lip service, but no real push. It seems we have the brains and the resources and the desire. We just need profound leadership and direction. We can create a whole new energy economy if we can just all be united in the effort. It seems at the moment that we are using the Keystone Kops approach - everyone running in all different directions, and getting nowhere.

This would be a good lead topic for the 2009 State of the Union.

Mortgage holders need help. Not wallstreet.

All of these foreclosures could have been avoided if there were a mechanism to help people stay in their homes.

It would be way cheaper to increase grace periods, lower interest rates, and defer partial payments.

Get a clue here Washington.

Nothing new in this article. Our leaders need to start thinking about us and forget about what's good for the goose.

They are acting like kids blaming each other for not passing the bill. Republicans decided not to vote on a bill that will ultimately help us small Americans even though a lot of us don't like the bill we need the bill to survive. How do you get pissed off at something someone, the house speaker, supposedly say and then I am not voting because she pissed me off. Ridiculous

Vote for "none of the above" or at least in November vote against every incumbent currently sitting at the Fed, State, City, County and Township level. Pick your Poison with the Presidential race.

I say pick an income number: $150,000 agi or less and cut every household a debt voucher for $30,000. Let the banks get their money back by paying down citizen/taxpayer debt. (I know this number may offend some middle classers making 2.5 million AGI, but its just a number for discussion)

Guess what, the rest of the American Income will still go overseas because we still can't use our own natural resources to support ourselves because our legislators are too greedy to help the American Citizens.

Between Free trade agreements where the US draws the short stick (95% into the US and only 5% or less out of the US) and quit enticing foreign companies to give Americans jobs only to Send the MAJOR PROFITS out of the Country, we are all screwed. Our labor unions that live off the American Paychecks are not exempt from any blame either. Neither are the Golden BILLION/MILLION $$ Executives.

Look at our national Debt. We owe more money to every other country out there. It's the United States of the World, because everyone else owns us. A majority* of our industry is not even American Owned anymore. *fact not confirmed.

Cut off ALL, EVERY BIT, of Foreign Aide and bring the money back home NOW. Let the rest of the world fend for themselves for about 5 yrs. Let the other countries of the world help the starving, dying and the oppressed. They already HATE the Good Ol'e USA so what does it matter.

We still will participate in the Global Economy but only on a level playing field.

By the way, Obama/Palin would make a truly AMERICAN ticket to Represent "WE THE PEOPLE". To hell with the parties that are killing our way of life.

Food for thought anyway. This country deserves this kick in the groin. It needs to hurt for a while so maybe we will wise up and hopefully become truly UNITED STATES again. The Executives in this country also need to be replaced by the Boards of Directors and truly look to the interests of the Stockholders and Shareholders.

Out will all INCUMBANTS. If you keep voting for the familiar name you will keep getting the familiar same. That rhymed.

I was going to vote for Obama before he basically kissed AIPAC's ass and promised Israel he's going to continue supporting the racist Zionists. Now, while every decent American is hollering to Congress to vote no on Bush's $700 Billion give-a-way, Obama is standing up for the Bail Out Plan knowing most of that money will end up in Israel. The dang Zionist Jews are trying to rip us off again!

Here we go again. Our selected representatives bickering, political posturing, finger pointing, and some even not voting on this critical bill. Guess the ones that didn't vote are looking forward to the elections weeks away and don't want to infuriate the voters. And if they had a problem with any portion of the bill, why didn't they come up with alternatives, or better yet, solutions? Geeee, that is a no brainier.

Betcha there is nothing in the bill which calls for an in depth investigation, to include all our elected officials, into why this financial failure occurred and who was receiving direct/indirect benefits from Wall Street before their scam was revealed.

When are our elected officials going to realize they WORK (maybe that is not the word for it since they take more vacations than work) for the taxpayers instead of themselves or special interest groups. Now the bill has died, guess they will bow their heads and slowly walk to their awaiting limos for a ride to the airport for another well-deserved vacation. After all, this very critical issue has been in the hopper for a week and their minds must really be exhausted. No cocktail parties tonight.

I.A.M. Free American: You are spouting nonsense. Mr Deregulation Mccain telling Congress to regulate now that is humorous. I am sure the Bush Administration were on top of their game all these years telling people to buy houses to make the economy look good in 2004 and calling a recession a "slow down" but the fact is this should have been forecasted years ago. To have the nerve to say one day "oh look what happened now we have to bail these companies out" is insulting. Let them go bankrupt like many of the small companies in my hometown has. I am tired of watching Airlines and banks being supported by the government when you have McBush putting little regulation on bad business practices until they go under. If we can not bail out homes or little businesses why are we doing so for big business? This did not happen overnight people this has been coming for eight years and legislation Mccain put forth years ago has helped this happen.

What a bunch of spoiled, crybaby Republican brats. Nancy's speech hurt their poor little feeings, so they decided to hurt the country. If that is the real reason they did not vote for this proposal, they are truly a bunch of unpatriotic and partisan chumps.

You are kidding right?
The Politicians were bought off a long time ago by the Corporate Boards.

Being in the Military, I thought that I joined out of Patriotism, over 30 years later I realize that I am not fighting out of Patriotism to protect the US. I am protecting and enforcing the Policies of the Politicians that were bought out by the Corporations. Therefore I am Fighting for the Corporate Wars for Natural Resources.

On numerous occassions these same Corporations bought politicians, and own them to defeat the interests of the very people that they were sworn to represent.
National City Lines is the perfect example of existing Corporations that are continuing that evil attitude of gimme all your money or else. NCL is still in existance as NTL. source "National City Lines" wikipedia.

I am really ashamed that I wear this uniform and should just tear it off and burn it. Why? I am protecting people that are too stupid to realize that their own people are Domestic Enemies, and did what the 911 Terrorist could not do, collapse the US Economy. Now our representative want to reward them by giving the crooks and rapists our money. This makes me look stupider that the stupid people that I am protecting. Yes, I should rip this uniform off and burn it.

Speaking of Patriotism, American, Flags. I have been all over the world and have seen and heard what others think. They really wonder why we are quote, "U" Stupid of America, not United States of America.

Why? They see our Auto Industry wave the American Flag and say they need another bailout, we give it to them. Are they American? Is a Chinese Corporation that moves it's Headquarters to America and Incorporates at Deleware with all its manufacturing in China, American? That is what you are saying. Why? GM, Ford, Chrysler are not American, get over it the majority of the Auto plants are in Mexico or Canada. Where has the bailout money from 1970s, 1980s,1990s, 2000, 2008 been tracked to? Corporate Board Member salaries, benefits, bonuses, stock options, separation packages, Multimillion dollar corporate parties all while these people made the decision to layoff more Americans, close factories, use some of the bailout money to move the factories to Mexico, just after they bought the politicians to create the 1994 NAFTA. Putting one or two bolts on a Mexican or Canadian built vehicle from parts made in Mexico is NOT Made in the USA.

So these Corporate Board Member bums come back every couple of years to milk the cash cow. Hey, FREE Money. You think that the same thing isn't what these other Corporate Board Members of "Wall Street" are doing.

There are still some American Auto Plants located in Kentucky, Oregon, California and Alabama. Americans assembling cars in plants located in America for Americans.

Toyota, Kentucky; Honda, Oregon, California; Hyundai, Alabama.

Why did these "Foreign" Corporations do this? Most of these Corporations are in countries that were devastated by War. The leaders of these Corporations, yes, I said leaders, not "managers" have lived thru these Wars and devastation. They saw the generousity of the Americans in the rebuilding of their countries by the Americans, their Honor makes them give back to those that were generous to them, unlike the current "generousity" of the US Corporations in Iraq, Corporations paid to provide food, water, electricity to Iraqis by Citizens of US and the Iraqis get nothing. The Iraqis Insurgents provide them with food, water, electricity and say see what you had, now what the Americans have done, starve you, destroy your house and kill you. The most important reason about other countries Corporations/Companies is that these countries are very respectful of title or position within a Corporation/Company due to the conduct of the people in those positions. Honor, duty, commitment, competence is their motivation. This is why the Japanese consider the Corporate Board Members of Japanese Corporations the new Samurai. And I do not mean the American concept of people running around chopping heads off. More like the Tom Cruise character in the Last Samurai. The US Corporation Board Members motivation is like the Pink Floyd song Money. No Honor, duty, commitment, competence. The Golden Parachutes prove this. The other countries the whole board goes down with the ship or they use their personal assets to bail out the Corporation or Company. They "man up or woman up" to the situation. In the US we are too divided playing the blame game (blaming the wrong people), we treat the symptoms and ignore the disease (of Corporate Board Member greed).

Why are these considered as Foreign when the real Foreign automaker are Mexican/Canadian Corporations of GM, Ford, and Chrysler. That is where they have been being built since NAFTA, 1994. And U Stupid of America have bought off on their American Flag waving. I have seen Iraqis, South Ossetians, Abkhazians, South Americans, Chinese, Russians, etc. waving American Flags does that make them Americans? So the Corporations of GM, Ford, Chrysler in Mexico and Canadian wave the American Flag made in China and claim to be Americans? They chose money in their pockets over the Citizens of the USA. During World War II, these Corporate Board Members would have been taken out and shot as Traitors, that committed High Treason.

Other countries that have NOT believed their lies, now have what? 3 Million E100 Vehicles, over 6 million Flex Fuel Vehicles made by Ford and GM. "Ethanol Fuel in Brazil" wikipedia.
Not the obolete "pie in the sky" "prototype" "experimental" stuff that might work years from now. Yes, you will get a bandaid, after I experiment, while you are bleeding to death.

These "third world" countries are near Oil Energy Independence. Not the would have, should have stuff that the U Stupid of America have bought from the Corporate Boards of America.

Most of the other countries handle their problems differently than rewarding crooks and rapists. They take out the corrupt Politicians and Corporate Board Members and shoot them, kick the body in a ditch or drop into the ocean. Seems to work, this does not happen again and again like in the US. And their Financial Economies gain Confidence. So if this happened in the US, 2 dozen corrupt Corporate Board Members executed as the Domestic Terrorist Traitors that they are to save 300 Million US Citizens and the US Economy? Why does that make sense?

Most other countries look at the US and laugh. They have weaned themselves away from the USD and gone to the Petro Dollar or Euro. Try and give them USDs and they will throw it on the ground and spit on it, worthless.

These people keep saying oh we will lose jobs. Think they do not already have plans to "out source" those jobs, just like GM, Ford, and Chrysler did. This is History of what they already did. You are going to say well these are different people. NOT. Many Corporate Board Members sit on many other Corporate Boards as Members. Look up the Biographies. Same people same results.

Did I mention Stocks and Shareholders? The bailout does nothing for us, these corporations already posted losses by cooking the books, meaning the "Common" shareholders do not get anything except a loss. The Corporate Board Members Stocks and Shares Options get reinflated and they get richer.

Banks and small business loans? You small business owners that did not get bought out by these large Corporations for cheap (see a trend here?). You think the smart banks are going to loan you money after being pardoned for screwing up on bigger loans. NOT. That would just be gambling and making the same mistake again.

Being in the US Military, I look for results, solutions, NOT excuses:
The entire problem has lead to only one course of action.

First Identify who caused this or allowed this to happen. (Find out who the enemy is.)

Locate all of their assets internationally (Find out where the enemy is)(follow the money).

Detain them as Domestic Terrorists under the Patriot Act, no rights, at Guantanimo, confiscate all assets (including all relatives). (Fix inplace)

Make an example of them as to what will happen to others that do what they did. This must be very memoriable for generations or it will happen again and we will have to do this again until we get the right amount of punishment so that everyone worldwide remembers or knows.

Truth hurts huh.

Wilfred,

If this bill was so Great and Needed. Why didnt Barack obama and Nancy Pilosi have 100% Yes vote from the democrats in congress, They dont need the Republicans to Pass anything in Either the HOUSE or the SENATE.. Put the blame where it belongs .. ON the Democrats....

and for the democrats to PLAY POLITICS with this subject shows just how out of touch they are with REAL american...

I.A.M.Free American

Your point, though simplistic, was right on the (heh heh) money.

Israel wants our children to fight their war(s).

Do you want to send your children to the middle east to fight for Israel?

You're funny, Steve. The Democrats weren't pretending they weren't playing politics when they bargained for the Republicans stepping up and taking some of the blame for passing the massively unpopular bill.

You think the Republicans WEREN'T "playing politics" when they claimed that Nancy Pelosi kept them from voting they way they would have because she said Bush Administration economic policy was responsible for the economic mess?

I agree. And it is ALL of them.

I second that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This bailout plan is a joke. We are bailing out private industry and all the Congress can do is say that we MAY get our money back? Guess what, these are corporations. They are going to make a profit at some point in the future. Can we not stipulate that when they do make a profit that they pay back the 700 billion? They're dancing around this issue and what's going to happen is that the money is going to magically disappear into the hands of corporate America and we're never going to get it back.

House Republicans want an insurance provision? What moron would insure these "toxic assets"? It's like giving a $1,000,000 life insurance policy to a 99-year-old on his deathbed. SCAM.

I don't want "oversight". I want our @!$%#ing money back.

Just one of many problems with this whole mess...these corporations will "make a profit at some point in the future"...when they file bankrupcy (on paper, that is) or are "bought out" (READ MERGE POWER) by another corporation...either way, the tax payers never see the profit...it runs out the back door IN THEIR POCKETS. We the people may as well face the fact that there aren't a lot of facts supporting the idea that anyone is really representing our best interest at this point.

I'm just a guy who gets up every morning and tries to do the best I can do. I'm not dumb but I don't have a college master's degree either. So I hope I'm not to far off with what I'm about to say. Give the money to the American people? What for?, So they can turn around and waste it on tattoos, DVD's, computer games, eating out & bling bling? Because that's what the majority will do. Where do you think the wall street pukes came from? Right out of the rank and file of the American people, that's where. We are these guys on Wall street. And they are us. This nations has gone down the crapper as a whole. Not just one part of it. A part no one wants to admit they are associated to. Sorry, but no one is getting away from the blame. We all did it. Even those that didn't buy in to it are in on the blame. Why because although it has not been mentioned in awhile, we are one nation. A nation that has become divided. Divided in to the smallest factor. Individuals. Millions of individuals who care only for themselves and their immediate family. "To hell with society" To hell with the country and the government!" To hell with God" "I want whats owed to me!" "Whats the right thing?...What ever gets me and mine ahead. That's what"
THIS, This is the mentality of the Wall street. Not a mentality learned on Wall Street but one brought from home. A mentality that is running ramped through America. I watch Americans lie every day. Whats their excuse? Because their being lied to!!
Where and when does it stop? When are we going to start practicing what we preach?
I look at things like "Parental control" on peoples television. For what? So their kids don't watch their porn channels? So what has the parent accomplished? Is the child being told that porn is wrong? That it eats at your conscious mind? NO. The child is being told porn is perfectly fine. You just have to be old enough to watch it. These watered down morals are being taught and practiced on a massive scale everyday in America. "As long as you don't get caught it's not a crime." Whats going on with Wall Street is a perfect example of "what goes around comes around" This corrupted way of thinking has crept up into the executive offices our financial institutes. And now it's coming back to bite us in the ass.
These billions of dollars being poured into Wall Street are a temporary fix at best. The true corrective measure is years down the road. That's about how long it will take for the effects of the task you start today to reach the front door of the banks and mortgage companies. What task?? Being truly honest and demanding nothing less from your children. Any future existence of The United States of America lies wholly in the character, integrity, and irreproachable honesty of our self's and our children. Many years ago I was told the definition of pride. I was told this by a US Marine. He was a Vietnam Vet. He had one arm, one eye, no legs and was severely disfigured. Yet this man carried a dignity about himself I had or still seldom see. This was his definition of pride, Personnel Responsibility In Daily Efforts. P.R.I.D.E.
I was a young man when I listened to this soldier speak. I have carried those words ever since.

I'm in much agreement with you. And you don't need a Master's Degree to make such fine observations as you have. (I hold a Ph.D and couldn't have said it better!) What a fine mess Wall Street has reflected back at us; and the U.S. Congress now holds up a fractured mirror so that we may see our own distorted, corrupted, bankrupt "Selves." A plague on both our houses!

We already have that, I think, Arrow :(

I hope a lot of people read your post, Mac.

Mac is right.

Some years ago, my Dad, a WWII veteran, said that this was not the nation he went off to war and saw his friends killed to preserve. Somewhere along the line "me first" became our credo. I don't doubt that there are many smaller causes, but two of them stay with me: we now ask what our country can do for us, instead of asking what we can do for our country. We do this in every election, in every transaction. It is rooted in our ideology, whether left or right. The second cause is this utterly unsustainable craving to CONSUME. It doesn't matter what, but simply that we have MORE and more all the time. Y'know, most of America's growth over the last 20 years has been funded by ever-increasing debt, not real and tangible wealth. Our Merchantilistic government, by way of the Federal Reserve (a private entity) set unrealistically low interest rates, and business marketed consumerism-at-all-costs, purely for the pursuit of profit. ALL of us were party to it, because we did NOT rise up and demand change. Why? Because as such a shallow society, we judge everyone by a material standard. Even opportunity is showered upon those with the trappings of material success, while those lacking are shut out.
All of this has been called "the suicide economy" by writers more knowledgeable than myself. But there is a poetic ring to it. At what point did We the People actually believe it could go on forever? Ahhh. That's the point: as long as the paycheck comes on time, and we can make our payments, no one honestly gave a damn. In the last couple of elections, there was all this talk that the tax revenues "belong to the people" and thus, it should be given back. NONSENSE! I make a paycheck. But I'll be Damned if I get to call it MINE until ALL my bills are paid.

HERE THIS CLEARLY ALL CITIZENS LEFT, RIGHT AND CENTER:

Our government, our society is in serious debt. This debt grows every day. Until we, as a nation OWN UP TO this debt, and act financially responsible, we will continue to see our future, our sovereignty, and our safety erode and diminish. Unregulated, unrestrained Capitalism is every bit as BAD as totalitarian Communism. NO EXTREME IS SUSTAINABLE.

If we do not face this truth, and act as a COMMUNITY of responsible people, we will be as the Romans were. Life will go on without the United States of America.

Hey NetProphet,

I agree. We all want our money back.
But, I can guarantee you with 100%certainty that, if we do show a profit at some point, that profit won't go to the corporations, it will end up in the hands of our GREEDY Congress.
Why? Because it's there. Have you ever known of a Congressman or Senator to pass up money? These people would take the last dime from their own dying, aging mother.

Senators and Congressman have NEVER met a dollar bill they didn't like.

Same way with the original Social Security money.
FDR said it would never be in the general fund but would be in its own account, unavailable to Congress.
WELL, guess what?
Congress saw all that money there and PRESTO, stuck it into the general fund, so they could spend money that bever even belonged to them in the first place.

All Americans should stand up and SHOUT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
We demand ACCOUNTABILITY and TRANSPARENCY in our government leaders.

We have the ability to fire every damn one of them that does not give us, we, the people, what we demand.

As for me, I'm going to remember the name of every last one of our representatives that fail to do the job we elected them to do and vote accordingly.

I'm sure you've heard this before, but,

I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!

goldnmypoc

You are right heads should roll....starting with the American people who allowed GW

to initiate his "Patriotic Fervor" and the American people went for it HOOK, LINE,and

SUCKER. He kept the illusion of ( the boogie man is coming to get us)...while he was

the DEVIL in the DARK. RAPING and PICKING the BONES of America DRY...under the

GUISE OF I'M PROTECTING YA.....except he did NOT PROTECT America from his and his

REGIMES DOMESTIC TERRORISM......now we are where we are SCREWED!

The Trust and verify went out the window and was replace with JUST TRUST ME (GW BUSH)

I'm a man of GREAT FAITH I will LEAD all AMERICANS to the PROMISE LAND. WE will

go to the MIDDLE EAST and give them the SAME things AMERICANS enjoy.....OH I GET IT

being F***ED by your GOVERNMENT....(I thought they already had that)... I'm sure this

verge of a DEPRESSION is what ALL NATIONS want to EMULATE from the Americans

LETS face it... WE are our own worst ENEMIES.

Aren't we missing something BIGGER...what about all of the people (not the big wigs, but the underwriters, the account managers & the customer service people) that will undoubtedly be laid off with the failure of these HUGE institutions. We need to look at the health and stability of our country. This huge dollar amount will look like chump change in a few years when we're in the middle of a second depression and we HAD the opportunity to get out of this mess!!!

supposedly the FBI is in the early stages of investigations per a blub I heard on KDKA radio. The bigger question is whether or not anyone of us will ever hear anything. Rumors abound about whose fault this is when the bottom line is the greed of the Americans. If you can't afford to have what others have then CHARGE IT!!! if you want a big house to be like your neighbors, take out a mortgage. The Carter Administration introduced the legislation that can be likened to the depression bail out by Hoover & Co. Only this time it has back fired. Eventually we all have to open the window envelope and pay our bills. Wake up, get out of bed, get a job and quit acting like someone owes you a living, no matter your race, ethnic background or sex. There is no free ride. I wish I could have received the economic stimulus check, I would have put it in the bank to earn interest or into my retirement savings. But NO!!! my husband and I both work so we did not qualify for this. I have now put 3 kids through college and never once qualified for any sort of loan or grant that did not come with a monthly pay-back amount. Pehaps those that fell so hard-done by should get a job and take care of themselves. Last I checked we were a democracy, not a socialist nation, so waiting for Big Daddy Government to pay your biills is not going to happen. If you bite off more than you can pay back, don't expect someone else to pay your bills. Perhaps this bailout should include something for those of us that do work and pay our bills as a thank-you for taking care of all the other deadbeats in our country.

I 3rd. that!!!!!

Why do we want to give more millions to people who stole billions. Fire em all put them in jail and put all that (CEO salary's stolen money) back!!

Mac is wrong.

A lot of the people we throw in jail wouldn't have the coldness of heart to cheat people that way.

These people hardly ever go to jail.

Wilberta
We all know that GW was a terrible mistake and that he will go down as one of the worst mordern era Presidents. Bill Clinton will always be remembered for Monica, the blue dress and the cigars.

You've strayed from Goldnmypoc's main idea. ALL INCUMBANTS need to Go. Lets do it this Nov.

SK-NITro I am a 30 something in business. LET me tell you, a gentlemens agreement isnt worth anything anymore. It really sad. Hell even legal contracts do go too far in this day and age.

Hoosier,

You're not suggesting that that blue dress has anything to do with the economy are you?

I am so sick of this blame it on GW crap. You know that senate has a majority of democrats... and that the deregulations on Wall street were under the term of Bill Clinton. We could play the blame game all friggin day, it won't get us anywhere. I want to know why it seems no one, not senate, congress, the president, anyone in office seemed to have seen this coming? Why not try to fix a small problem before it snowballs into something more?

Chris,
No, the blue dress did not effect the economy. Then again, did it sell on EBAY, if it did, someone had way too much money to throw away.

That was more to The Original Macs "morals in this day and age" reference.

Neither GW or Bill are exactly good role models.

Here is what I find funny. Top SEC officials saying this is a learning experience! They need fired. All of them today! There is no reason they should not have forecasted this and I am tired of hearing it was a mistake. These people get paid a lot of money and should not have to learn at this point. FEMA Brown was the same way. Whoops cost the lives of thousands..my bad!

I agree with cribby. I watched the entire 3 plus hour debate and before I go further I am a lifelong democrat. I was proud of the leadership of the house republicans such as John Boehner who gave an impassioned argument to vote for the bill and why. I was however embarrarased when Nancy Pelosi chose the worst possible time to think it helpful to rip the republicans a new a..hole. People don't understand tthis crisis may affect many of your jobs if your employers can't borrow to make payroll. I work in a hospital which is generally a great place to be in any economic condition yet it is losing money and borrows money all the time to make payroll. This is a big deal and blame can be assessed at the appropriate time, but at least doing something now is better than not doing anything at all.

I laugh in the faces if we think we are gonna see heads roll.......The demcorats hold the Reins ofcongress n one will be investigated for this mess....If there was a Single Republican that was involved in any of this you can Guarntee they would be Holding Hearings Immediately and the Hearings would on TV so as to Help Barack Obama.......

george: Were you a teensy bit embarrassed when Republican leaders claimed that Speaker Pelosi's criticism of Republican economic policy, and saying that it led us to where we are now, regrettably caused them to CHANGE THEIR VOTES?

Steve: "If there was a Single Republican that was involved in any of this..."?

You are joking, right?

Look at who they all are and you'll see why their smiling. It's those damn Dems that got us here in the first place. They're smiling because of the money they'll make from the slush fund they set up. That's why they out numbered the Repubs at the last minute behind closed doors. Thank Obama, Dodd, Reid, and Pelosi especially.

Newbie-355957

Look at who they all are and you'll see why their smiling. It's those damn Dems that got us here in the first place. They're smiling because of the money they'll make from the slush fund they set up. That's why they out numbered the Repubs at the last minute behind closed doors. Thank Obama, Dodd, Reid, and Pelosi especially.

Don't you think if you're going to make a statement, it should be true. This mess started with Reagan and the Republican policies of DEREGULATION. The Republicans have run the roost for 28 years, minus the years of Bill Clinton, when we had surpluses.

Only a fool would think otherwise, Only a MORON would say dumb lies, and not expect to be outed, you're busted.

I disagree with you, Newbie is correct.

Please enlighten us with some back up Jay, Newb.

It's both party hell you can't tell them apart anymore there both full of crocks and layers and thefts. They take care of them self and hell with who has to pay for there mess. It's time to vote them all out and start over if we vote them out all incumbents every election then we have set term limits with our votes.

One thing to remember here folks, the Bush Admin will have to "sign the bill". and approve it for law. It's Bush who got on TV and wanted this, and now it's blame Dems for the bill. I DON'T LIKE THIS 700B PKG, AND WHY WOULD BUSH APPROVE OF IT. There will be blood on his hands tooooooooo.

Do you people realize that this has gone way beyond party politics?

This is NOT Dem v. GOP.

At this point, they are the same.

This is We The People v. a corrupt, tyrannical system run by people who do not listen

This mess started with Reagan and the Republican policies of DEREGULATION.

The problem started when government regulations were created that forced lending institutions to give money to people who couldn't afford to pay it back.

Government is the problem, not the solution.

Blaming it on the poor this time won't work these toxic loan bundles have ZERO to do with low income loans. These have to do with DEREGULATION ,these financial vehicles and lending practices were unheard of or illegal until 50 yrs of safeguards were trashed beginning under Reagan and reaching their height under Bush II. This mess is 100% owned by idiot trickle downers, liberals and Keynesian's have been warning of this for 30 yrs. Now the Dems are being asked to bail Bush out ,the right wing cowards who caused this won't have the stones to clean up their own mess.If the house does not approve Global Markets may crash, I hope that's what you want. JKHayes

Rigbee, where oh where did you get that the regulations forced institutions to loan money to folks that could not afford it? Lending money is a contract. The federal government cannot by law interfere with that. The regulations that the Republican led government threw away required financial institutions to make prudent investments. This included being careful about lending money. Additionally, a great deal of the mess came from not taking the profits and putting them back into the companies and instead lining the pockets of the Executives and not enough oversight to make sure the money was not used for personal purposes. You can't just make up stuff and throw it up here and expect someone isn't going to say, what in the world are you talking about.

The blame goes across the board on everyone. Congress that allowed the nutso frat boys to have one big party sticking our money in their pockets and that did not demand more investigation into what was going on with Iraq prior to going over there. I wont call it a war because we are not at war with the Iraqi people or government. Right now, all we are fighting is the folks that want us to go home. If we went home, these "terrorist" that are killing and disfiguring our boys would go back to being everyday people. Fighting a war on terror my butt! We invaded them. We got out the dictator. Good job. Now they want us to go away and are attacking us to convince us of that fact. They have extremist there, yes. But, they are their extremist, their countrymen. Let them take some of those extreme oil profits they made while we are running up a bill with China and destroying our economic base, and use it to take care of their internal problems. This whole thing is against common sense. McCain says that Obama wants to admit defeat and to snatch victory from us. Victory over what? What the crap are we supposed to be winning? Why doesn't anyone notice that no one has ever said what we are supposed to be winning over there. A war against terror? It isn't fighting a war against terror to protect American citizens when the people you are fighting are thousands of miles away and only want you to take your army home. Our presence is the cause of the terrorism.

I want to know when I am going to get a bail out of my student loans so that I can actively participate in the economy as they predict the financial institutions will do after the bailout. We don't need them giving more credit. We need someone putting cash into the economy, real cash, cash that means something to someone. They take the profits from the work of the oil fields in the Kuwait and give it to their people. Why don't they take the tax dollars we contributed from our hard work and give it back to us and let us take care of the housing crisis by buying homes without mortgages? Nah, that would bypass the need for mortgages and getting more interest profits into the hands of the fat cats.

To blame the democrats and not the republicans, or vice-versa, is ignorant. No one party could screw up things this badly on their own. It really took all the stupidity on both sides of the aisle to create a mess of this proportion. I for one am voting against any incumbent, be they democrat or republican (seriously).

Duh! Typical uninformed people here! If you're going to aim, make sure you hit the right targets! Here's what the root causes are, and the accountability that needs to be taken is obvious:

Congress Lies Low To Avoid Bailout Blame By TERRY JONES INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, September 18, 2008 4:30 PM PT

Congress says it likely will adjourn this month having done nothing on the most important issue in America right now: the financial meltdown from the subprime lending crisis.

Can Congress just walk away from a problem it helped create? Maybe, maybe not.

There's now some talk of a grand deal between the Treasury, the Fed and Congress for a "permanent" solution: creating a government agency to buy up all the bad subprime debt, just like the Resolution Trust Corp. did with bad real estate in the 1980s and 1990s.

Already, the U.S. Treasury and Federal Reserve are spending hundreds of billions of dollars to keep the subprime crisis from crashing the world economy. The collapse of twin mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with the failures of Lehman Bros., Bear Stearns and insurer AIG, expose taxpayers to more than $1 trillion in liabilities.

Until now, Congress has been surprisingly passive. As Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid put it, "no one knows what to do" right now.

Funny, since it was a Democrat-led Congress that helped cause the problems in the first place.

When House Speaker Nancy Pelosi recently barked "no" at reporters for daring to ask if Democrats deserved any blame for the meltdown, you saw denial in action.

Pelosi and her followers would have you believe this all happened because of President Bush and his loyal Senate lapdog, John McCain. Or that big, bad predatory Wall Street banks deserve all the blame.

"The American people are not protected from the risk-taking and the greed of these financial institutions," Pelosi said recently, as she vowed congressional hearings.

Only one problem: It's untrue.

Yes, banks did overleverage and take risks they shouldn't have.

But the fact is, President Bush in 2003 tried desperately to stop Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from metastasizing into the problem they have since become.

Here's the lead of a New York Times story on Sept. 11, 2003: "The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago."

Bush tried to act. Who stopped him? Congress, especially Democrats with their deep financial and patronage ties to the two government-sponsored enterprises, Fannie and Freddie.

"These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — are not facing any kind of financial crisis," said Rep. Barney Frank, then ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing."

It's pretty clear who was on the right side of that debate.

As for presidential contender John McCain, just two years after Bush's plan, McCain also called for badly needed reforms to prevent a crisis like the one we're now in.

"If Congress does not act," McCain said in 2005, "American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole."

Sounds like McCain was spot on.

But his warnings, too, were ignored by Congress.

To hear today's Democrats, you'd think all this started in the last couple years. But the crisis began much earlier. The Carter-era Community Reinvestment Act forced banks to lend to uncreditworthy borrowers, mostly in minority areas.

Age-old standards of banking prudence got thrown out the window. In their place came harsh new regulations requiring banks not only to lend to uncreditworthy borrowers, but to do so on the basis of race.

These well-intended rules were supercharged in the early 1990s by President Clinton. Despite warnings from GOP members of Congress in 1992, Clinton pushed extensive changes to the rules requiring lenders to make questionable loans.

Lenders who refused would find themselves castigated publicly as racists. As noted this week in an IBD editorial, no fewer than four federal bank regulators scrutinized financial firms' books to make sure they were in compliance.

Failure to comply meant your bank might not be allowed to expand lending, add new branches or merge with other companies. Banks were given a so-called "CRA rating" that graded how diverse their lending portfolio was.

It was economic hardball.

"We have to use every means at our disposal to end discrimination and to end it as quickly as possible," Clinton's comptroller of the currency, Eugene Ludwig, told the Senate Banking Committee in 1993.

And they meant it.

In the name of diversity, banks began making huge numbers of loans that they previously would not have. They opened branches in poor areas to lift their CRA ratings.

Meanwhile, Congress gave Fannie and Freddie the go-ahead to finance it all by buying loans from banks, then repackaging and securitizing them for resale on the open market.

That's how the contagion began.

With those changes, the subprime market took off. From a mere $35 billion in loans in 1994, it soared to $1 trillion by 2008.

Wall Street eagerly sold the new mortgage-backed securities. Not only were they pooled investments, mixing good and bad, but they were backed with the implicit guarantee of government.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac grew to become monsters, accounting for nearly half of all U.S. mortgage loans. At the time of their bailouts this month, they held $5.4 trillion in loans on their books. About
$1.4 trillion of those were subprime.

As they grew, Fannie and Freddie grew heavily involved in "community development," giving money to local housing rights groups and "empowering" the groups, such as ACORN, for whom Barack Obama once worked in Chicago.

Warning signals were everywhere. Yet at every turn, Democrats in Congress halted attempts to stop the madness. It happened in 1992, again in 2000, in 2003 and in 2005. It may happen this year, too.

Since 1989, Fannie and Freddie have spent an estimated $140 million on lobbying Washington. They contributed millions to politicians, mostly Democrats, including Senator Chris Dodd (No. 1 recipient) and Barack Obama (No. 3 recipient, despite only three years in office).

The Clinton White House used Fannie and Freddie as a patronage job bank. Former executives and board members read like a who's who of the Clinton-era Democratic Party, including Franklin Raines, Jamie Gorelick, Jim Johnson and current Rep. Rahm Emanuel.

Collectively, they and others made well more than $100 million from Fannie and Freddie, whose books were cooked Enron-style during the late 1990s and early 2000s to ensure executives got their massive bonuses.

They got the bonuses. You get the bill.

Rigbee that is the exact opposite of the facts. Wow.

Also, 6 years of total control by the Republican party should have been able to fix a mess that was so obvious, right?

Community Reinvestment Act

We can't blame everything on it, but it's responsible for a good chunk of where we are now.

The problem isn't Democrat or Republican, but the Chosen Ones they work for.

Let them Beeyotches burn. I think the government is garbage for bailing wall street and not the taxpayers who make them greedy asses rich. PHUCK EM' let em burn. We'll recover from it.

John McCain tried to do something about this, but they (the dem's) wouldn't listen.

John McCain is a liar.

"Two years ago, I warned that the oversight of Fannie and Freddie was terrible, that we were facing a crisis because of it, or certainly serious problems," Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., told CBS this morning. "The influence that Fannie and Freddie had in the inside the Beltway, old boy network, which led to this kind of corruption is unacceptable and I warned about it a couple of years ago."

How does this claim of foresight square with this interview that McCain gave to the Keene (NH) Sentinel, discussing the subprime mortgage crisis, in December 2007?

Q:"Well the dimension of this problem may be surprising to a lot of people, but to many people, to many others there were feelings that there was something amiss, something was going too fast, something was a little too hot. Going back several years. Were you one of them? Or, I mean you're a busy guy, you're looking at a lot of things, maybe subprime mortgages wasn't something you focused on every day. Were you surprised?"

McCain: "Yeah. And I was surprised at the dot-com collapse and I was surprised at other times in our history. I don't know if surprised is the word, but..."

Q: S & Ls?

McCain: "I don't -- what did you say?"

Q: " the S&Ls"

McCain: "Yeah, the S&Ls."

Q: "Is this bigger than that?"

McCain: "I don't know the dimensions of this. It's hard to know what the dimensions are. As I say, I never thought I'd pick up the paper and see a city in Norway is somehow dramatically impacted by it. When I say 'surprised' I'm not surprised when in capitalist systems that there's greed and excess. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said 'unfettered capitalism leads to corruption' or something like that, that people have disputed for years.

"But so, in this whole new derivative stuff, and SIBs and all of this kind of new ways of packaging mortgages together and all that is something that frankly I don't know a lot about." "But I do rely on a lot of smart people that I have that are both in my employ and acquaintances of mine. And most of them did not anticipate this. Most of them, I mean I can find some that did. But, a guy that's on my staff named Doug Holtz-Eakin, who was once the head of the Office of Management and Budget, said that there was nervousness out there. There's nervousness. There was nervousness that we had such a long period of prosperity without a downturn because of the history of our economy. But I don't know of hardly anybody, with the exception of a handful, that said 'wait a minute, this thing is getting completely out of hand and is overheating.' http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpu...te-claims.html

Yes, jjames, Senator McCain "tried to do something."

He sat in on a meeting with the executive and mentioned that the hardline Republicans that aren't really his friends want to get THE REST OF THE REGULATIONS THAT THEY DIDN'T ALREADY GET STRIPPED out of the way, too.

The regulations that were put in place after the Great Depression so that the financial institutions (which have plenty of money for the guys at the top to skim off as they run them and then skip off) WOULDN'T melt down again and take our economy with them. Again.

Which Senator McCain brags about dismantling whenever possible. Well, not so much now with the results being pretty obvious.

CHUCK - wake-up! Let me say this again - 2005 democrats killed oversight legislation (fannie mae and freddie mac) that would have headed this mess off. McCain and the other Republicans said - we (the American people) are headed for economic disaster if we do not do something now. That was in 2005 Chuck.

Let me say this again - 2005 democrats killed oversight legislation (fannie mae and freddie mac) that would have headed this mess off.

Agreed --It was in 2005, under a Republican controlled Congress and executive branch. Exactly how did Democrats kill it under these conditions?

The reform bill you are talking about was an attempt to stop the accounting practices that gave the CEOs et al big bonuses. It had absolutely nothing to do with the credit crisis. John McCain admitted he was surprised when the subprime mortgage crisis came to light. John McCain asked for (drum roll please) another committee to reform the very oversight committe that informed Congress of the possible misappropriations. None of the reform measures we're going to change the fact that all these financial institutions could dabble in every sector of the industry or stop bundling of these mortgages into securties. So NO this bill would not have headed off this crisis.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpu...te-claims.html

According to the Center for Responsible Lending. The Clinton administration had warned of the danger of sub prime loans. Please, look it up.

I'm right there with ya, I only read the headline as I couldn't stomach the rest!

All you McCain bashers, too bad you people can handle the truth… When the truth is placed here, all you can say is "McShame" or "McBlame". You don't want to know the truth, you are afraid of it. The facts I provide are a matter of public record, so why don't you look them up, why don't you seek the truth.. You don't because you don't want the truth. You would rather whine….

The economy, who passed NAFTA, I think that was a Democrat named Clinton… Now Obama is blaming McCain and Bush, and the democrats did it…. Democrats always blame someone else…. Come on people,,, give us some truth… oh, you can't… prove it….

Obama is blaming McCain and Bush for the economy in Michigan. U.S. car sales are down, but wiat, foreign car sales are up.. wonder why that is…. Look at Consumer Reports and JD Powers and other, what cars rank higher as to reliability and such.. Foreign Cars… But blame McCain and Bush for the average American buy a foreign car… Make a better U.S. car and people will buy them… Seems like you always want to blame some one and never take responsibility….. The following quotes are from the New York Times five years ago. Republicans proposed increased oversight and regulation of Fannie and Freddie, but Democrats fought it.

"The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago. Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry. The new agency would have the authority, which now rests with Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies. It would exercise authority over any new lines of business. And it would determine whether the two are adequately managing the risks of their ballooning portfolios." Democrats pushed back. "Among the groups denouncing the proposal today were the National Association of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing".

"These two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis", said Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing."

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed. "I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing," Mr. Watt said.

Given the above, the following would be great questions for Barack Obama either tonight or in the Economic Issues debate at Belmont University next month.

1. Why did you stand silent in 2005 and vote with the other Democrats to block very financial reforms which would have prevented the current crisis in the financial markets?

2. One of the primary reasons so many bad mortgage loans were made in the first place is that "community organizers" like ACORN, for which Obama worked, spent decades pressuring banks and bank regulators to do more to make mortgages available to people without much in the way of income, assets, or credit. These campaigns often were couched in racially inflammatory terms. Does Obama still think that banks should have made these loans?

3. Why did you not favor punishment for the former CEO of the bankrupt Fannie Mae, Franklin Raines, a man who personally made $90 million over a few years while cooking the books Enron-style at Fannie Mae? And why did you have Jim Johnson, former Fannie Mae Chairman, helping you pick you VP before the pure embarrassment made him resign?

4. How can you blame John McCain and the Republicans for this mess when you yourself supported the easy credit policies and refused the needed reforms for these programs?

5. How can you blame John McCain and the Republicans for this mess when you yourself supported the easy credit policies and refused the needed reforms for these programs?

The DEMS would not let John in,, the DEMS don't want the truth to get out how they screwed the economy....

To M_White Bear,

And when was the last time you left the reservation smartass?

I take great offense on your remark about being from Oklahoma means you are likely not educated.
There have been more astronauts from the Great Stae of Oklahoma than any other.
The University of Oklahoma in Norman is one of the finest universities in our nation. Along with Oklahoma State University in Stillwater. Ever heard of T. Boone Pickens? He happens to be a graduate of Oklahoma State University.

Guess you've never heard of Will Rogers, Ron Howard, Jim Thorpe or many other great Oklahomans.

Go crawl back into your teepee, your (non) intelligence is showing.

If you can't do anything but insult others with your post, then don't even bother with it.

Pot, meet Kettle...

A-F Vet

If you disagree with White Bear is one thing but to pick on the Native American ( which I am one is wrong. You can kiss my butt and go back to your home. I thought race based comment where not aloud on here shame on you sir.

You are truly white trash

If you think you can convince us that John McCain tried to save us from this mess, you must believe we're all a bunch of idiots! In reality, he's a big part of the problem.

You are insane John McCain and the architect of his economic policies Phil Gramm caused it. Also that Friday publicity stunt gave House Republicans cover to vote against a bailout , this will go down as one of the most irresponsible moves in US history. When the bailout is defeated Global markets will crash and burn. I hope that makes you happy and I hope it's worth it to McCain.

JKHayes

Thank you Andy G., an intelligent & well thought out response. And if Obama gets into the White House, it will be more of the same!

I feel like I just woke up from a drug induced coma. Since 1980, GOPers have been harping that government oversight and regulation are the root of all of our ills. I know of no Texas Republican who ever met a regulation he liked. Now that we are facing the consequences of free-market extremism and greed, GOPers are claiming they've been the ones for regulation and oversight the whole time. Partisan politics aside, am I crazy or what? I think I'll go back to sleep now....

Barack HUSSAME Obama

Grow up Lynn....if that is all you can say to a serious crisis like this...no wonder this country is in the mess it is now. You can not get past such obvious blatant I don't even want to speak the r word, but when your response to this is yours, that is what it is.

Actually, sherry, I think Lynn was doing the same thing to Obama's middle name as many hae done to McCain's last name.

HUSSAME = McSame

There's no 'r word' about it.

Actually it will not be the Taxpayers money because we don't have any money. The country is already over $10 TRILLION in debt. We are going to have to beg the money from other countries.

Can you imagine what the interest each month is on $700 billion????? Especially since our credit score with the rest of the world is "needs improvement"

The government should give taxpayers NOTHING, Robben. That's part of the whole problem: too much government involvement. Ever hear of the laissez-faire concept of economisc? It really works. If the world markets believe this congressional sham of a bailout is gonna make things better, then the entire world economic order is in for a rocky ride.

Government will be printing more paper and we sure will be paying for it in additional taxes and inflation.

Do the math, if every taxpayer got that money in an even distribution it amounts to $4000 for every person over the age of 18. Not much bailout that way.

As long as you believe that, as appears the bare majority of the US voters, The Fed will continue on the current direction, only faster. America does not understand it's own Government system. Here's how it works.

The President proposes direction and what that may cost.

Congress writes the actual spending law and puts in it how much is spent and writes what the laws that have to be enforced. When the legislature is of the opposite party spending is more or less than requested, and often the bill passed is recognizeable by the name for what it was intended to do.

The last time a president's budget was less than requested the requested amount was during the last 6 years of the Clinton administration. When Bush took over he had a simple majority in both houses for 2 years. As part of the "NEW TONE" he deferred to democrats wishes hoping to gain there cooperation. Examples are "No child left behind", "The Senior Prescription Drug Plan", and "low income housing regulations". These over the objections of the Conservative Core of the Republican party.

McCain is barely conservative. He votes with conservatives 54% of the time. The 90% voting with Bush included votes for the senate to adjorn, joint declarations for accommodations, and special day declarations.

America is accepting what the Major news media and the democratic party has to say without hearing or reading the what republicans are ACTUALLY saying. Other than republicans who ran for the republican nomination, can anyone name 5 republicans in the house and 5 republicans in the Senate. I CAN'T without consulting the Senate and Congressional rosters.

That is funny DB. Are you admitting to a poor memory, not much knowledge to begin with--or are you, by chance, pretending that there aren't 49 (out of 100) Republican Senators in Congress?

The Democrats have an actual majority in the House, with ONLY 199 Republicans to 234 or 235 Democrats.

If you can't name 5 out of 49 (of 100) in the Senate or 5 out of 199 (of 434 or 435) in the House) then maybe the Republicans aren't pulling their weight. They sure as hell aren't vastly outnumbered.

As for McCain being "barely conservative", the extreme Right Wing isn't the only flavor of Conservative. His staunch support for massive deregulation of the financial institutions whose meltdown started the bailout talks was plenty conservative enough for Phil Gramm, who personally benefited from it when he left the Senate and took his seat as a vice-chair at UBS. And when he continued to lobby Congress and the Federal Reserve, and the Administration on continued deregulation. And when he pulled Senator McCain's campaign out of the doldrums.

And I don't know ANY Democrats who favored "No Child Left Behind" with its emphasis on passing tests rather than actual learning (and incomplete funding each year) or the "Senior Prescription Drug Plan" which everybody I know could see was welfare for pharmaceutical companies.

Dharma Girl,

And I don't know ANY Democrats who favored "No Child Left Behind" with its emphasis on passing tests rather than actual learning

So I guess when 197 Dems in the House (vs 186 Repubs) and 47 dems in the Senate (vs 43 Repubs) voted to pass NCLB that they were voting for something they were not in favor of? Wow, what a bunch of stupid democrat politicians.

The final vote: House 383 yes 44 no Senate 91 Yes 8 no BTW the no's were 6 repub and only 2 dems.

phantom:

I am flattered that you think I know the guys in Washington...oh, wait--I'm not.

But no. I actually don't. Like I said. I don't know any Demcrats who favored it.

Dharma

So I guess we agree that the dems in DC are stupid and don't represent the dems in the rest of the US. Either that or you don't know very many dems. Not sure which it is. If the dems in DC are not doing what the dems in the US want then why do you dems (I assume you are a dem--my mistake if not) keep sending them back there? I am reading a lot of comments from dems about not wanting the bailout but once again the dems in DC are ignoring you.

BTW, I'm an independant so any comments about the repubs would make no difference to me. I think they are just as dumb.

Yup, your mistake, Phantom. Not a Democrat. But I didn't say Democrats are stupid, and I'm not saying Republicans are stupid (well, not as a group.)

What I've seen about the bailout is that a REPUBLICAN Administration was pushing for a no-recourse, give-us-all-the-money, quick-before-you-think-about-it, bailout, and the Democrats in the House, along with some Republicans while agreeing that there is a need for government funding of a HUGE "solution" insisted on some oversight, some recourse, and some accountability. Other Republicans say the federal government has no place in trying to save our economy, and just want to continue deregulating, and the hell with the economy.

Some people suspect THAT is because either they don't expect to be affected themselves (and their buds) OR that they know it will pass without their vote, so they can afford to take a "principled" stand for no government intervention. (I am one of those people.)

But if YOU think Democrats are 'stupid' for voting for representatives that won't shut up and do what the people want--were you equally dismissive of the majority of Americans who think the war in Iraq "isn't worth it" even if some of them thought it was fine as long as they could believe we were winning, and would look really good doing so? We have an Executive who basically brags about not caring what we want, what we believe. Does that make all of us stupid, too? He isn't a one-term president.

Maybe we are all suffering from an extremely entrenched system that is VERY hard to move in the direction we want it to go. Maybe we are all just mistaken in some things, like you are.

Is it just me or isn't "W" Bush a Republican? And didn't Bush run as a deregulator? And aren't the same folks who voted for "W," twice in fact, now blaming the Dems for deregulation and the bail out plan put forth by this Republican administration? Politics is strange indeed. This reminds me of when McCain voted agains his own immigration bill. It's just too weird!

0 for 3 now. Did they propose it to see if it would pass? The only thing people are going to agree with you on is your last statement, "Don't you want all the information before you vote or not". Most would not put the "or not" on the statement and use a question mark.

When Clinton left office our debt was $13 billion. Now our debt is over $10 trillion.

No I don't blame only the GOP because there were Democrats in office as well that could have AT LEAST stated their case.

Roger take 85,000,000,000 and divide it by 200,000,000 you only get 425. The $700,000,000,000 will be used to buy assets and will be paid back once the market turns. If you just give money to people you will cause inflation and you end up where you started. The Banks and Wall Street did not cause this problem. It was Dems wanting poor people votes by forcring banks to make them loans. Watch the video it has all the facts in it.

oi812

Roger take 85,000,000,000 and divide it by 200,000,000 you only get 425. The $700,000,000,000 will be used to buy assets and will be paid back once the market turns. If you just give money to people you will cause inflation and you end up where you started. The Banks and Wall Street did not cause this problem. It was Dems wanting poor people votes by forcring banks to make them loans. Watch the video it has all the facts in it.

0 for 4 today.

The last time I heard such a stupid statement it was coming out of the mouth of an imbicile, name is George Bush.

If McCain camp is going to pay people to write their trash, shouldn't they at least get people with more than a kindergarten education. Please stop trying to impress people with your stupidity. Most people on Newsvine, even the ones I disagree with at least have some intelligence, sadly that leaves you out. Tomorrow school is open, I suggest you try it out.

M. WH. B., you seem overly impressed with your own erudition. "Imbecile" is NOT spelled "imbicile." (and don't try to call it a typo--"i" and "e" are far removed from one another on the keyboard.) Further, it's a shame that your profound dislike for the Repubs. and McCain doesn't extend to essentially ALL politicians. Then, I'd be more receptive to your ideas.

Exactly right! And John McCain tried to get greater government oversight of Fanny and Freddie in 2005 -- result, killed in committee. And who heads up the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs? Chris Dodd, D-NY. And who heads up the House Committee on Financial Services? Barney Frank, D-Mass.

These two characters have sucked up $15,593,717 in contributions from the financial industry!

I was thinking the exact same thing! Well said

Yes, the foxes were sent to guard the hen house, but it's our nest eggs that are being eaten.

When this election is over we, as a Nation, are going to have to come together and rise up against this B/S that has taken over our system.

We elected these people to work for us.

We can send a very powerful message, if we vote out all the incumbents, up for re-election this year. Please vote against ALL incumbents, regardless of party. We can teach them how to work together and solve problems.

DW, great idea. I plan to do so. It's the only tool I have left. I have called congress people, I have written letters, I have marched in protest. Nothing seems to have any impact.

Then again, speaking of my only remaining tool - voting - the truth is that in many states, votes for Prez don't count. In California, a vote for McCain will not count, as all electoral votes will go to Obama. Likewise, in Texas, a vote for Obama will not count, as all electoral votes will go to McCain.

I have been around the block a few times. I have a good education (MBA) and a good job.

More and more it just seems pretty pointless. The only tool that matters, really, is money, stacks of money, and I don't have that.

I'll vote, but I know deep inside that it's pointless. Absolutely pointless.

I agree with the above comments. The problem: It's VERY hard to dislodge an incumbent. The solution: TERM LIMITS. Max. of two 4 year terms (like for the presidency) for Representatives and Senators. Sadly, this can only be done via a Constitutional Amendment, and we all know that that is not going to happen given the mechanism in place (to accomplish such.) Disheartening to say the least!

LU-404506 wrote:
When this election is over we, as a Nation, are going to have to come together and rise up against this B/S that has taken over our system.

Why wait "when this election is over"? Let's throw the bums out starting WITH THIS ELECTION!

DWHIZ,

Understand your frustration, but since congress is pretty evenly split, voting out all incumbants will just result in another split congress, which creates standstill.

1. I would recommend that (maybe in a few days), you think about the underlying problem which I think I hear you saying is corruption and being out of touch with America.

2. Decide which Presidential candidate you think will be the best government reformer and get spending under control.

3. Vote for that person AND whatever party they're in for congress.

For me, I believe McCain will be the best reformer since it's been his pet issue since the primaries and throughout his career (experience). I intend to vote republican for my senate seat (the only one that is up for renewal). That person happens to be an incumbant. But, if I vote for McCain and then put another Harry Reid vote in the Senate, McCain will have a harder time with reform.

For you, it may be Obama. Or, you may be tempted to vote third party. Personally, I think this would be a mistake as it will more likely perpetuate the status quo. It has been a long time since a President had a Congress to support him. I think now would be a good time for that to happen.

I appreciate your broad view, but disagree with your conclusion. Aren't you concerned with Phil Gramm and all the lobbyists who are constantly surrounding McCain. I don't believe we will benefit from any of his own choices, but rather what he is forced to do via his entourage. Too many bad apples in his group.

That is Obama's modus operandi. He takes no position on anything until far after the fact and then claims either he was for it or against it depending on the polls.

NOW THAT IS LEADERSHIP YOU CAN BELIEVE IN!!! ROTFLMAO!!

We don't know what Obama will do, but we do know what has already been done to us by the Bush Administration.

Everyone working for McCain is from the Bush Administration.

When you house if full of roaches buying a new TV to watch will not solve the problem. You have to get rid of the roaches.

Reading McCain's comment on this bailout mess, that we all "...have to swallow hard...", great, just great. Right up there with his comment at the beginning of the mess, that it would be "a SIGNIFICANT" cost to the taxpayer. Obama/Biden 2008 -- I can't take more of the McSame.

Obama has said he will vote for this bill

Our elected reps. ARE aware of American outrage about this bill.

They know we do not want this.

They do not care.

They are not listening.

This is not about you, me or We The People.

This is about power.

The major deregulation legislation that caused this mess was written by Lou Gramm, a major player in the McCain campaign, during the Clinton administration. Over 90% of Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, voted for it and President Clinton signed it into law. At the time, the Republicans did not have the necessary votes to overturn a veto if Pres. Clinton had done so. Also remember that the major players within Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were members of the Clinton machine. No one in Washington had any real desire to stop this fleecing. Look at how many of our current representatives have been linked to this companies.

This mess is not a Republican or Democrat issue. It's a greed issue!!!!

I wish people would get off the deregulation train. Deregulation was not the cause for this mess. Almost everything we're seeing today comes from the simple fact that the government used it's powers to fundamentally alter the markets.

Through Freddie and Fannie the government created this mess by creating a false market for bad mortgages and by allowing the Community Reinvestment Act to stay on the books they actually made it possible for groups like ACORN to force banks to give bad loans if they wanted to do anything as simple as open new branches (just google Madeline Talbott).

In fact in most cases the government trying to add regulations to the market just caused more problems by causing major financial institution to leave and head overseas and thereby causing a dangerous centralization of the US money markets.

What is sorely needed is more oversight, which instead of simply putting rules in place for the sake of making rules, ensures the current rules are being followed. It also helps bring these types of problems to the forefront before they can infect the entire system. The feds should also get out of the banking business, if not altogether at least to a very large extent, and reorganize Freddie and Fannie. Of course this has all been tried several times over the past 8 years or so but each and every time the Democrat leadership has used whatever means available to stop any type of scrutiny.

Please watch the video Former POW says McCain is "not cut out to be President" on youtube. After watching it, if you still vote for McCain you are a fool

CamachoMan - We get it. Give it a break>

Please watch the video Former POW says McCain is "not cut out to be President" on youtube. After watching it, if you still vote for McCain you are a fool

Who cares about an opinion?

Watch burning down the house on youtube, and you will see factual reason NOT TO vote for a Democrat.

That's because the top ten percent are now making a much larger percentage of all the money than ever before. You make more money, you pay more taxes. That's still the rule, as far as I know.

I think that might be a little too complicated for oi, T. But it was well put :)

Ignorance is a many splendored thing. During the Eisenhower and Kennedy years, the top marginal tax rate was over 90%. Look it up. The concentration of wealth has continued, unabated and largely unknown to the people. Those who have pined for the return of the Aristocracy should delight, because it is for real, here and now.

The people of this country CANNOT pay the bills of the government, thus we borrow from China and the oil-rich nations. Hence, we are bankrupt.

You can look that up too.

We the People share the blame as well. Every election in recent memory has been based on "Which candidate will give ME the best deal", not "Which candidate will do the best thing for the nation's future?"

ME FIRST has come home to roost. We dined on lies for dinner. We will now eat the bitter dessert. Fat on credit and drunk on power, America is going to wake up to one Hell of a hangover.

Both houses are in this bailout together. It's sickening.

Actually, ACORN gets $0 from this bailout, language was added to the bill specifically to exclude ACORN.

The executives of the institutions that will benefit from this rescue plan should NOT receive any compensation for their incompetence and greed. Instead investigations of fraud by deception needs to be initiated and pursued. Those executives who allowed their companies to fail have caused a terrible loss to their investors, employees and every other business connected to theirs.

The bad mortgage debt bundled up in bonds and securities are currently as worthless as the paper they are printed on. No other institution wanted any part of it except our own Government. We will regret investing in and or insuring those paper instruments which are nothing but worthless assets.

Our Government should never be in the mortgage or insurance business because it's a disaster of politics, incompetence and corruption that allowed us to become a part of the largest economic and financial downturn in our history. None of our tax dollars should be used for any these mortgage debts.

The passage of this bill will demonstrate that our senile Senators and mis-Representatives have again disregarded the will of the people whom they are supposed to be representing. Their constant smoke screen of half truths and lies continue spew from their orifices while they achieve their selfish goals and schemes which are disguised as duty to country and voters.

Anyone planning on voting in November should either NOT vote or write in their OWN name. Then we'll have real change.

Agreed. Lets do it...

Tad-401841

"The passage of this bill will demonstrate that our senile Senators and mis-Representatives have again disregarded the will of the people whom they are supposed to be representing. Their constant smoke screen of half truths and lies continue spew from their orifices while they achieve their selfish goals and schemes which are disguised as duty to country and voters."

Seems you are one of the few who actually gets it. I'm appalled at the same old crap being spewed forth from all the people on these sites still just endlessly blaming the "other political party". What the hell is it going to take to wake you people up? "it's Bush, No it's the Dem's, No, It's McSame" Hey folks, it's your inability to form any original thought. Here's the answer; It's the lemmings like so many on this site who blindly follow the political parties spin because they are either too stupid to see through the crap or too gutless to join into any attempt to correct this situation.

I would venture to guess that this bill will never be "transparent" (new buzzword) for any of us poor working stiffs to ever actually see any of the details. the politicians will see to it that no details are ever allowed to be seen by America's poor folk (that's you and I) only the rich and politically connected will ever know where the dollars went. I would also venture to guess that after they fleece s out of this initial $700. billion, when they are "needing" more money in the next few months (after the election) these same people will still be wasting our time with their worthless political crap old blaming the other part ad- infinitum.

Welcome to twenty first century socialism…and now, a word from our sponsors: "It's Bush; no it's the Democrats… no, it's McSame. No way, it's Obama… since when? It's the republicans…no, It's Obama's momma, Oh Yeah… it started under Clinton, Who says? Look it up Butt-head…it was Reagan, Sure, when pigs fly moron…try Carter…no, Eisenhower…no Thomas Jefferson…No, Lincoln… Nu Uh, pea brain, it was Washington, sure Einstein…It's the do nothing Congress, no It's the administration, no, it's the Bureaucrats, yeah, the Democratic Bureaucrats…Hey dummy, more like the Republican Bureaucrats…And the horse they rode in on…NO damn it, It's Bush; no it's the Democrats… no, it's McSame. No way, it's Obama… since when? It's the republicans…no, It's Obama's momma, Oh Yeah… it started under Clinton, Who says? Look it up Butt-head…it was Reagan, Sure, when pigs fly moron…try Carter…no, Eisenhower…no Thomas Jefferson…No, Lincoln… Nu Uh, pea brain, it was Washington, sure Einstein…It's the do nothing Congress, no It's the administration, no, it's the Bureaucrats, yeah, the Democratic Bureaucrats…Hey dummy, more like the Republican Bureaucrats…Oh yeah, well then smarty pants, how about Pelosi…"

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program:

Good evening friends, are you feeling tired, overworked, underpaid, and taken advantage of? Well friends, don't worry, were all going to get a big check from uncle Sam soon, real soon, just as soon as we take care of this next big bailout of our rich and influential fellow citizens who are losing their money in the latest money making scam/scheme gone wrong. Be patient little sheep, your turn will come soon!!!

I will wait to see who votes for this.

Any candidate who votes for this, I will not vote for EVEN IF it means NOT voting for the candidate I originally chose.

This is the first posting that make sense we should hang all of them including the politicians that ignored the public pleads not to bail these clowns out, shooting them would be too quick ..... What a joke that's why they are smiling they just screwed all of us, better learn to grab your ankles because this is just the start of it all .........

Producers don't stay in business very long without consumers, Cupcake. Producing alone isn't going to do it, either.

And nations don't stay in business very long if the consumers don't produce, Twinkie. Taking money from producers to give to non-producers is a recipe for economic disaster.

Really--and I said money should be taken from producers and given to non-producers where in that post?

I responded to oi's post. I don't know what you are responding to.

DG,

I must have misunderstood your response. I'm glad to see that we agree on this.

You continue to "misunderstand" if that's what you want to call it.

I didn't say anything about money being taken from producers and given to non-producers in my first post.

And I didn't say anything about agreeing with you in my second post.

DG,

It seems we're speaking different languages here, so I'll just say, "Have a nice day."

It was the crooked mortgage lender that caused this mess, in collusion with Wall Street, packaging the now virtually worthless paper into "bundles", and sold off to financial institutions WORLDWIDE. And helped along by people too dumb or too uncaring to know that they would be in over their heads. The real estate bubble burst in the worst way. And now we all get to pay for their bet-making. And the foreign markets are not too happy either!

great point DD50

Chuck Colson makes a great point that "independent thinkers" might want to ponder

"the people who are going to steer this plan through Congress are the very characters who brought us this crisis. And they are already looking for political and financial goodies they can hang on to the plan."

It's sickening! And, who is one of the main culprits?

None other than "the savior" Barack Hussein Obama!

"But there is another cause of this crisis that we cannot ignore: the near-incestuous relationship between politicians and big-time government-supported financial institutions."

"... Fannie and Freddie spent more than $200 million lobbying Congress over the past decade. Among politicians, Barack Obama ranked number three in terms of campaign contributions received from the two agencies-more than $100,000. His chief advisor in the vice-presidential vetting process is a former CEO of Fannie Mae."

I second that :)

It does not matter if you are a democrat or republican. The fact of the matter is both parties are going to rubber stamp this crap. It will be interesting to see if anybody in Congress has the balls to make a stand and vote against this instead of being a pussy and saying "we dont like this but we must do it to save mainstreet".

I am not going to vote for Mcain or Obamha if they vote in favor of this. You can make all the arguments you want but in the end they will BOTH vote in favor of it.

McCain might not if he is sure it will pass without his vote. He still thinks he can get the far right to vote for him if he plays his cards right, and they don't want the bailout as much as they want the rest of the regulations to be stripped so there are no controls (instead of insufficient controls) left on what the financial institutions can do.

The Democrats TALKED about making the bailout transparent, but I haven't checked to see what they got put in, or how hard they tried. But anything would be more than the "NO oversight, NO review" that the Administration bill explicitly provided. I hope that was just meant to be a bargaining point.

Living on the very modest side of "Main Street" I am hoping we can avoid a complete meltdown this time, and being Far Left, I actually think the government has some responsibility to try to stabilize the economy--not just for CEO's and other rich people.

Do you really think we can do that, LU? The pulling together part, I mean. If so, have you thought of getting involved directly? The way things have been going, my fantasy is that people will actually stop whining (not that there isn't plenty to whine about, but it is not an effective tactic) and suffering, and start changing things from the bottom up. I'm assuming you are not a politician or a CEO already, of course :)

I have heard the argument that nobody who doesn't have a head start (network, affiliations, family) or can simply bend over for one or the other party line (I won't mention any names) doesn't have a chance, but isn't that depressingly cynical? You don't have to run for office yourself to affect the process...strictly speaking, President Bush is the only politician I have really heard bragging about not actually representing the voters.

Organizing other honest, pragmatic people and riding herd on whoever IS running could accomplish a lot, I would think. Particularly in State legislatures and in Congress.

Starting with the concept that we are responsible for the representation we get. (I'm sure you get a lot of resistance to that!)

I have to completely agree. They will put this plan in motion with not one of those responsible being made public knowledge - except for GWB. It goes with the territory whether or not he bought into the legislation that was rammed down lenders throats a couple years ago mandating the lenders open their doors to loans that could not/would not be paid back. This recession/depression - financial catastrophy - was forseen by many of our freelance financial guru's way back then. I have not taken time to dig up the legislation that opened the flood gates, but the subject is being hashed over on FOX and CNN. Whether or not we completely agree - or disagree with the rejected plan, we all I fear they (our so called "representatives") will pass the bill - and we will PAY.

Are you including a Republican President in that Pat?

We are going to get a new president, no matter what. It's the stupid Congress that needs to be changed. Now is the time for us to play our role in the process. Vote out all incumbents.

As an Independant I voted for Obama in the primary. I later decided that I would not vote for him for several reasons. Prior to the primary season there were 2 people that I was not going to vote for: Hillary and McCain. Thus I have now officially decided that for the first time in my long voting life I will be voting for a 3rd party candidate. This bail out of people, who were either greedy or stupid (both companies offering loans and people accepting loans) by a bunch of lying pieces of (you know what) we call politicians (both Dems and Repubs) has truly sickened me. I believe that people such as Franks, Dodd, Pelosi, Reed, and whoever the idiot leaders of the Repubs are should all have to step down for gross incompentence against the American people. But I know that they will all be returned to office by a bunch of idiot voters. I was actually hoping that the house Repubs would stop this travesty of justice. I'm thinking Australia would be nice right about now.

The bill could STILL fail.

Desertgirl

Unfortunately it will pass and be signed into law. It was more a matter of being seen to be doing anything than to be doing the right thing....

Is history repeating itself ??? ----- Bailout Plan Is Only One Step on a Long Road

History's most sobering example is the Great Depression. the government waited too long to do anything to aid the battered banks, and the economy cracked.

Roger,

You are part of the problem. How dare someone mention a couple of democratic names and not throw Bush in. Damn them! The fact of the matter is you are an Obama supporter. Don't pretend to come on here and be anything but that. I will admit I was a Mccain supporter. However, as soon as he votes for this bail out I will not cast a vote for him. You fail to see one thing Roger. There are term limits on the President, however, Mccain, Biden, Reid, etc. have been in there for how many years? Too many. Pull your lips off Obama's ass and open your eyes to the fact that Mccain and Obama are partners in crime.

Pat-I guess you are including McCain in those who should be voted out. Is that correct?

Wow Dan....

I think you misread me!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it was up to me I'd have Pelosi, Dodd, Frank, Rangel, Schumer, and Obama put in prison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nah...prison is to soft for them, Pelosi, Dodd, Frank, Rangel, Schumer, and Obama would find a way to run the country from the inside. I say shoot and kill all those Mother's, they don't deserve to live for what they've done to this country!!!

I am an Obama supporter and right now I could put Pelosi under the prison. I do not say this because I am a Republican. I say this because I am an American and I know the American people DO NOT know what is at stake here. It should not matter right now if you are a democrat or a republican, don't take the average person's word for it....read. The country is headed into a depression unless something is done NOW. People just do not realize what a mess this is. There are financial things going on here that even an MIT graduate doesn't understand and they are the ones that put it together. I have called everyone in government that I can call. I even called Pelosi.....this bill has to be passed and it has to be passed NOW. Love at what's happening in Europe already. This is going to be worse than the Depression. Call everyone you know in government, Democrat or Republican, and tell them to vote for the bill NOW.

Bush was for it,, Treasury Secretary was for it,,, McCain was against it before he was for it --- The GOP is claiming Victory for it falling,,,, How is that leadership ??

It's causing either a Great Recession or a Great Depression as all the experts from MIT, Columbia University & other institutes of higher learning say it is. And it has cascaded into the Global Market over all effecting the funding & aid needed for the War on Terror

The only winner in this crises is Bin Laden