Debate stakes higher for McCain as insults mount

for the Layer!

If you like what is going on in America, and you like how you and your family are living, and if you and your family have health insurance, and you are in no danger of losing your home then you can afford to vote for the Republican Party.
But if you dont like what is going on in America, and if you dont like how you and your family are living, and if you and your family don't have any health insurance, and you are struggling to hold on to your home, the question is can you afford not to vote for the Democratic Party.

I am one who likes how my family is living, we have health insurance, we are in no danger of losing our home but I don't like what is going on in America and I won't vote for McCain.

To be frank, he has become a horse's ass!  Considering his antics of late and his comments to date I wouldn't be at all surprised if he loses it completely tomorrow night and blows up on national television.

Obama supporters need not worry. It will take a miracle for Republicans to win this election. I have come to support neither candidate and the candidate I do support, who offers the only real change will not win.

But come January you will NOT get free health insurance for your family, you will NOT get relief from the mortgage terms YOU agreed to and you will NOT get most of what you are voting for. So, if you think Obama is the answer to our conutry's problems,  be prepared to be dissapointed anyway.

I am one who likes how my family is living, we have health insurance, we are in no danger of losing our home

Same for my family... damn that George Bush to hell.

I agree  Ind. Ed, It's sad to see a in my opinion once highly respected State Senator turn into such a jerk and crap slinging pol.  I don't know what happened to John McCain, he's going against everything he's aways opposed and railed about.  It's truly sad to see this man implode right in front of America.

Naftel, You're right when you say that most of what is being promised will not be delivered because the simple truth is that the economy is in such a bad state that whomever becomes president will lack a large amount of the finances to do half of what they want to. And it is truly sad because it is to a large extent the fault of the predecessor. When Bush came into the White House he had a balanced economy and a lot to work with - especially economically. The next president will not be that lucky, with the economy in turmoil necessitating a huge bailout - which in turn only add one trillion more to the trillions of dollars of debt etc. etc. The next President is going to have to try to reduce the debt by cutting back on many of the promises he would have wanted to fulfill.

But here's where I disagree with you: There is however, a difference between Obama and McCain. McCain is planning to essentially continue the policies of Bush - same Iraq war, deregulation, same foreign relations policies, same tax cuts for the wealthiest etc etc.. Obama on the other hand is the only serious chance for real change. If we want to start taking steps in the right direction out of this mess, then Obama is the only rational option.. and he's a pretty damn good choice too. I honestly admire his policies (The economy, foreign relations, energy, healthcare, education, women's issues etc.) and I also admire him as a person - compare his comportment to McCain's in the last debate.. or better yet, tomorrow's debate. Obama is like the opposite to Bush - he's smart, thoughtful, educated, passionate for the hardworking middleclass - while McCain is like the older, crankier version of Bush. It is only to be proven if McCain and his sidekick could be as dangerous as Bush has been. But we just can't afford to take that chance to find out.

When Bush came into the White House he had a balanced economy and a lot to work with - especially economically.

When Bush came to office the World Trade Center was still standing in New York and we had already been attacked by AlQuida several time under the Clinton administration and he did nothing. The difference between Bush and Clinton is Bush had the balls to do something about it and Clinton did not. So blame Bush if you will, but if Clinton had acted 9/11 might never have happened.

For the record... I support the libertarian party.

I find it funny that everyone has forgotten 9/11 and the fact that we haven't been attacked since. Sorry, but that cost some money. Was Bush perfect? No. Were mistakes made? Yes. In my opinion, when I put my kids to bed at night, I realize he did the best he could and it was worth every penny.

But has it been worth all of our soldiers lives and the lives of innocent Iraqi citizens, when we should have gone after Al Queda, the perpetators of 9/11?

Was it worth the lives to win WWII? More American soldiers died in one day on the beaches of Normandy than in 5 years in Iraq. Am I happy about the lost soldiers... of course not. When we went into Iraq, they flocked to fight us there and we ARE defeating them. Many are starting to believe that Bin Laden has been dead for some time now, although we don't know for sure. We killed at leat ten times as many enemy combatants in Iraq as soldiers we have lost. Violence is way down in Iraq and now there is word that the Taliban has broken ties with Al Qaida and are looking for a peace deal in Afghanastan. Bush haters don't want us to win because it takes a lot of wind out of their sails, but we ARE winning. And we have not been attacked since 9/11 and they give Bush and his administration zero credit for that. Sorry people, but that isn't a stroke of luck. There are millions of soldiers and federal agents working every day to keep us safe. Maybe some acknowledgment of their hard work and some respect would be in order.

Naftel,
Bush had been in office for 9 months when the tragedy of the twin towers occured.  You can point the finger all you want, but the truth is that he was president and the warnings about a large scale AlQuida attack were given to his administration.  Also President Clinton launched missiles on AlQuida camps in Afghanistan and Sudan as well as stepping in to end the genocide in Bosnia, both of which occured in 1998 and he received a lot of flack for it.  He was not by any means weak, but he was the president of an America who in general was not earger, at the time, to become involved in another international conflict.  What I mean to say is that President Clinton was ridiculed by a Republican Majority congress nearly every time he took military action.

Oh and one major difference between WWII and the Iraq war... we are the invaders, and we did so without proof and without the support of our fellow nations. The Iraq war is not making us any safer, if anything it is draining our economy to the point that airlines and ports are forced to make dangerous cut backs in personnel and resources. Did you know for example that less than 10% of the containers that come into the US by ship are inspected? What the Bush administration has bought is the ILLUSION of safety!

McCain will try a last ditch effort. But it wont stick.   The voters are just oversaturated with McCains lies.   Too much and too late. Obama is far ahead.   He can no longer stop Obama from winning. 

Bec30

I am not pointing the finger at Clinton, but I am saying that Bush inherited this problem, he did not create it just because he happened to be president when it happened. Clinton was ridiculed because the actions he took were a joke... blowing up crappy old buildings in the middle of a barren desert did nothing to even slow down Al Qaida and everyone, including Clinton knew it. He was wasting taxpayer dollars for political gain so it looked like he was doing something when it was having zero effect. And it was NATO that took action in Bosnia... Not Bill Clinton. If not for NATO, the US probably would not have been involved.

What the Bush administration has bought is the ILLUSION of safety!

Well it is no illusion that we haven't been attacked in seven years and I have to think they would have done something by now if they could have. I think most people, particularly those who believe anyone associate with Bush is completely incompetent, are shocked that we haven't been attacked again. If we are attacked again, and we may very well be, then I will concede that we weren't a safe as the seven years gone by would seem. But if we are attacked again, say with a WMD this time, we will be at war with Iran and Pakistan the very next day, because that is where Islamic Terrorists mentality gets support, training and financing and both of those countries know it. This is the new MAD... attack our soil with WMDs and we will wipe out your entire civilization. This may be the single biggest reason we have not been attacked. This would not be possible if all we did is lob some more cruise missiles after 9/11. I can see why the war is unpopular, but we are not privy to intelligence sources, so we really do not know what the reality is. While we can agree it is not what is sold on TV, I don't agree that it was a complete waste of time, because I think there are factors few consider and even fewer understand. I think having a forward base in the middle east to directly confront Iran and, if necessary, Pakistan has made the country safer by virtue of refocusing the fight and providing a deterrent that is 300 miles away not 3,000. Either way, we will never be 100% safe no matter what any president does or could have done.

Does anyone of us like prison?  I don't think so. Well to think that we are free because we have not been attacked in seven years, although a nice thought, we are prisoners in our own country with a standing in the world that is no where near what it use to be. Once we leave the shores of the USA and walking with a US passport in a foreign land especially in the Middle East and Far East you know we have that bullseye on our backs. WE ARE TARGETS whether you want to believe it or not or accept it or not. America need a leader who is gonna change not just our position at home but how people see us throughout the world.  I would like to go see the world  but the fear that is now in us all due to the Bush Foreign Policies has left us confined to this prison.

I trust that the next President will work with or friends and talk with our enemies with the goal to broker a more harmonious relationship between all nations.

Naftel,
Where do I even begin?  First off, Clinton launched those attacks on Al Qaeda camps based on CIA intel that stated that Bin Ladin was in a training camp in the area.  He did exactly what Bush would have done had he received the same information.  Secondly Clinton upheld the sanctions on Iraq and ordered continuing UN inspections that uncovered and destroyed more biological and chemical weapons than were destroyed during the Gulf War.  Thirdly, for years the U.N. imposed arms embargoes and sanctions that did nothing to cease the conflict.  Finally public outrage caused the U.N. to act where it had failed to do so for years.
Now to our national security you so strongly defend.  Do you recall that I told you that fewer than 10% of ships entering the U.S. are inspected?  This is fact.  The CIA has concluded that WMD's would likely enter the U.S. by sea!  That being said, the federal government spends more per week on the Iraq War, than it has spent over the past three years to beef up security on all of the 361 United States commercial sea ports.  I don't know about you, but that doesn't bolster my faith in the security of our nation.

Do you recall that I told you that fewer than 10% of ships entering the U.S. are inspected?  This is fact.  The CIA has concluded that WMD's would likely enter the U.S. by sea!  That being said, the federal government spends more per week on the Iraq War, than it has spent over the past three years to beef up security on all of the 361 United States commercial sea ports.  I don't know about you, but that doesn't bolster my faith in the security of our nation.

I do not deny this and I am not saying we are 100% safe. But you are only focused on one possible scenario. In my opinion, it less likely that a WMD would be smuggled already built in a shipping container and more likely it would be built here from individual parts smuggled from overseas and/or chemicals and parts bought inside the United States. There is also the possibility the peices of a WMD were brought here before 9/11 and are already here, in which case it is even more amazing we haven't been attacked.

Trying to prevent every possible attack scenario is impossible as is inspecting every person and every box that comes into the US. So, I propose that the Bush administration made a decision that can be sumarized as "We will take the fight to their neighborhoods before they have a chance to attack ours." At the same time they let it be known to Iran through diplomatic back channels that any further attack on US soil would constitute a de-facto declaration of war on the United States by Iran. Thus, if Iran wanted to maintain its sovereignty and avoid confrontation with the US, it would reign in potential "sleeper-cells" inside the US... and YES, I guarantee they have the influence and contacts to get that message through.

And I agree that Bush would have done the same thing Clinton did, but when 9/11 happened it was clear that more cruise missles would have no effect and enough was enough. So the question isn't would Bush have done what Clinton did, but would Clinton have done what Bush did if 9/11 happened on his watch? And, if not, what would he have done which is a rethorical question that can never be answered.

the question isn't would Bush have done what Clinton did, but would Clinton have done what Bush did if 9/11 happened on his watch? You mean "attack the wrong country"? Doubtful.

You mean "attack the wrong country"?

Right or wrong, the whole point of my post is that this fight isn't about A country. We are fighting people with a certain ideology that come from no specific country. But they do come from a specific region and they do share certain common interests. The fight was never ABOUT Iraq and from that standpoint it is not the "wrong country". It is as much about Iran. I think Bush miscalculated what would happen in Iraq, but I also think a large part of the administrations rational, which I agree is not what was sold to the American people was to provide a forward base for an inevitable confrontation with Iran as stated in my earlier post. Disagree if you will, but a good chess player is always looking several moves ahead and so is a good General.

the question isn't would Bush have done what Clinton did, but would Clinton have done what Bush did if 9/11 happened on his watch? Oh, but I disagree. It very much IS about the fact that we invaded a country that didn't have anything to do with the terrorists who attacked us, and by so doing have strengthened the hand of those terrorists-- their recruitment efforts, their international standing among Muslims sitting on the fence between radicalized Islam and 3rd world irrelevance, and their efforts to damage the reputation of the United States. We're spending $10billion a month in Iraq. Imagine what could have been accomplished had we spent that money on a focused effort to root out Al Qaeda from among a variety of countries, but most especially their stronghold in Pakistan. Instead, we're told that we'll "muddle through" and that bin Laden "isn't really an issue, anymore."

Forward base? For a war we have neither the military strength nor the financial power to wage?

Some thinking ahead that turned out to be. I'd spare myself another several years of it if I could. Hence, no vote for McCain.

Right or wrong, the whole point of my post is that this fight isn't about A country. We are fighting people with a certain ideology that come from no specific country

You're right, we are fighting an ideology not a specific country.  We are fighting an unconventional war but the government is trying to fight with conventional tactics.  The U.S. tried to win a war like this once before, it was called Vietnam... and it was a phenomenal failure.  General Petraeus himself has even been quoted as saying he doesn't think he will ever use the word "Victory" in conjunction with this war.  The reason for this is because when you are fighting an entity and not a country, you can't just go in and bomb the he!! out of them because that doesn't get rid of the threat, they just meld into the woodwork and watch us hammer away at neighborhoods... and then we wonder why people don't want to help us. 

The fight was never ABOUT Iraq and from that standpoint it is not the "wrong country". It is as much about Iran

And who will it be about next, Saudi Arabia?  Lebanon?  Be careful.  Once you start down that slippery slope you loose all credibility as a peace keeper and become a war monger.

As far as National Defense goes, these terrorists aren't as stupid as people think.  Why spend money and resources on bombing us again, when we are already destroying ourselves financially and doing far greater damage than they could ever do.  So they'll wait until we are so crippled that we eventually limp home to clean our wounds, and then they may attack using the gaping holes left in our homeland security.

Well we will never win if our governemnt and our people already believe we have been defeated as it seems you both do. I don't believe we are losing and I don't believe we have to lose. But if the majority of poeple believe we have already lost... then we have already lost. I guess Obama's mentor, the distinguished reverand Wright, was correct when he said "God Damn America". It appears you agree. Good luck with that mentality. I hope it works out for you and for us all.

Naftel, are you comfortable with the current tactics?

Saddam Hussien has been hung by the neck until death.

The United States of America has been in a two front overseas war for 7 years.

Large portions of the finance industry have recently been nationalized.

Diesel fuel prices have quadrupled in the United States over the course of 7 years.

Some children have been left behind.

Anheuser-Busch has been bought by a Belgo-Brazilian conglomerate.

Tennessee ran out of water last year.

The chickens have come home to roost.

Keep on rocking in the free world.

Who are you to question my patriotism?  I have served in the gulf, have you?  I'm not saying that I want something like this to happen.  I love my country and want it to be safe.  Where you and I disagree is on how to approach that goal.  I don't think running up a national deficit to wage a conventional war on a nonconventional enemy is a sound practice, I believe we need to fortify our own shores and support our own economy... instead of selling off our national debt to countries like China who we are not exactly on friendly terms with.  But maybe you think it's ok for a communist country to own a piece of us.

Obama's mentor, the distinguished reverand Wright, was correct when he said "God Damn America". It appears you agree. Good luck with that mentality. I hope it works out for you and for us all. And with that, the paucity of one conservative's thinking on the issue is revealed. Don't deal with the points, simply call someone unpatriotic and retreat. Eventually, though, it will become obvious even to you that slogans don't actually win wars, secure allies, or improve our security.

Now you know why McCain is losing this election so badly-- same tactics.

First, let me appologize if I came across as questioning your partiotism. I did not intend to do so. My only point is that having a "spiritual mentor" who says God Damn America onthe pulpit means something to me. But that was the past and he has renounced it, so please accept my apology and let's look forward together to the future.

After reflecting on this campaign, participating in newsvine and watching more of the same from both sides, I have decided I am glad Obama is going to win this election. I think it is best for the country. He stuck with the issues and he has a plan for hope and change.  This country is in a sorry state and I am looking forward to all the benefits his presidency is goingt o have for me and my family. My new goal is to help forward his policies, beginning with free health care for my family and a subsidy on my mortgage. I don't agree with either of those things in principle, but it will save me thousands of dollars a year and it's still my government too, so I'm jumping ont he bandwagon. I sold one of my business earlier this year and if the Government helps me out on my expenses it will work out great for me. I will also be looking forward to the troops home, with national security still secure within the first year. This is a new day for our country and, for the good of the couintry, I am embracing what Obama is selling. I mean this seriously. I have decided to vote for Obama based on what he has promised me, my family and my country. Now it is time for him to deliver.

And again, I sincerely apologize for any personal offense that resulted from my comments in this thread. None was intended.

Saddam Hussien has been hung by the neck until death.

And the downside is?

The United States of America has been in a two front overseas war for 7 years.

This will be over next year when Obama brings the troops home and admits our country was wrong and he was right all along.

Large portions of the finance industry have recently been nationalized.

They should have been alowed to collapse, not subsidized and sent on $500,000 junkets the next week. Obama and McCain both signed on for this and, ironically, in doing so sided with George Bush.

Diesel fuel prices have quadrupled in the United States over the course of 7 years.

If you believe in the development of alternative energy sources, you really don't want fuel prices to go down. The higher the price of fuel the more incentive to find alternatives and the better ROI for new clean energy businesses that are going to be subsidized by the Obama administration.

Some children have been left behind.

My wife works daily teaching autistic children... the reality of life is that our system already spends infinately more to teach kids that produce infinately less in society. Some kids will always be left behind and some kids will stay behind by chosing gangs, drugs or babies at 16 instead of studying at the free libraries throught the nation.

Anheuser-Busch has been bought by a Belgo-Brazilian conglomerate.

Well, that is the world market that Democrats were also very instrumental in creating. I prefer Heinekin anyway.

Tennessee ran out of water last year.

Hopefully President Obama can make it rain again.

Keep on rocking in the free world.

I was never a Neil young fan.

Spookey, is ther anything positive in your world?

Sorry, forgot one...

The chickens have come home to roost.

To borrow a phrase from the all-wise Homer Simpson: MMMMMMMMMM.... Chicken.

Naftel,

No harm done... in a strange way, I have enjoyed debating the issues with you.  Glad to have you aboard, you're a good debater.

non-issues?

They are the most important ones.

who gives a @!$%# about Obamas plans.

I think it is sad that the less-informed Republican base...the Joe Sixpacks that they appeal to...are falling for the role as essentially the mudslingers. They create a dust bowl, and you just add water and sling the mud. There is absolutely nothing substantiated. Nothing. And if Ayers is such a terrorist now, where is he and why hasn't Bush halled him off to Guantanamo Bay.

I'm beginning to wonder how the Republican supporters will feel and will their eyes will be opened wide to the financial trouble the US will be in, and all the lies will be uncovered when 2017 comes around and all the bills Bush has run up needs to be repaid and there will be no money for even the interest because the next few years we will be working on just paying the day to day stuff.

What does the lender do? Repo a whole country? Do we go bankrupt? Will banks even have the FDIC money to pay the insurance coverage? so your accounts will not have any value whatsoever. Will there be ANY social security benefits paid? Will our military get stranded where they are because there is no money to even get home? Those are just some of the things we will be facing. That and no oil imports (so you will be stuck at home and not be able to work) because no one will take us on credit for the purchases, same goes for any other imports from food to durable goods.

Stay tuned everyone, this is what Bush and republicans have done to all of us and more.

Whatever happens, it is clear that the United States will suffer the least in the current financial climate. The EU has similar problems that will be much more difficult to fix given that multiple countries must approve any fix. With American consumers spending less and buying American-made products even if they cost a little more, China's problems will be much worse than ours and there is already talk that some countries (Pakistan and Iceland) are on the verge of bankruptcy already. That is why the dollar is getting stronger and US treasury bills are rising in value even as the financial crisis seems to be getting worse. The United State is still by far the best port in the storm. God Bless the USA!

Unlike the USA,.. China & the E.U. are not multiple tens of trillions of dollars in unpayable debt = they will ultimately fare a whole lot better than we will, if this global financial meltdown continues.

China & the Eurozone are our creditors, & we are their debtors.
Hence, dcstone01's Post is unfortunately, correct.

Unlike the USA,.. China & the E.U. are not multiple tens of trillions of dollars in unpayable debt = they will ultimately fare a whole lot better than we will, if this global financial meltdown continues.

The debt is a problem that needs to be addressed. I have been advocating against Chinese made products for years. But their economy is completely dependent on us and we are not dependent on them. Already, one third of factories in certain parts of China have closed. they have plenty of trouble ahead.

If you believe that "dcstone01's Post is unfortunately, correct", then I guess you will be dumping your dollars and stocks in American companies in favor of the Yuan and stock in Chinese companies. If you believe dcstone01 and you are not doing that, then you are a fool because you are betting against what you say you KNOW is going to happen. This chart shows that the Chinese currency has lost value vs. the dollar since April, when the economic crisis started to gain momentum and has not gaind value as the crisis intensified.

So bet on China if you will, but I'm keeping my money invested here and the upward movement of the dollar says more people are doing the same.

Bill Ayers was a radical among many in a time of turmoil.  You have to understand that the vietnam war had been going on for years with no end in sight.  Thousands were sent against their will to fight in a war they didn't agree with.  He like so many others of his time was frustrated at the perceived corruption of a government that wouldn't listen, and like many young people of his day he sought to fight against what he saw as a gross violation of human rights.  The media of the day fuelled their anger with videos of monks setting themselves on fire in the street and children being killed.  While I do not condone his actions, no people were harmed in his bombings and in the early 80's he was pardoned by the government and has since become a leader in educational reform for the Chicago area.

I find it hard to take McCain's criticism seriously when he has close ties to G. Gordon Liddy who masterminded the first break in of the Nation Democratic Committee headquarters in the Watergate building in 1972.  Liddy was convicted of Burglary, conspiracy, and illegal wire-tapping and was sentenced to 20 years in prison, of which he served just over 5.  In his book Will, he actually admitted to making plans to kill journalist Jack Anderson.  Other ideas of his that failed to be acted upon... Firebombing the Brookings Institute in Washington D.C., kidnapping anti-war protest organizers and taking them to Mexico during the Republican National Convention, and luring Democratic campaign officials into comprimising situations and filming them.  McCain has conveniently forgotten the tarnished past of his morally bankrupt friend and ally in his condemnation of Senator Obama.  Look in the mirror Senator McCain, hipocracy is an ugly sight!

http://hubpages.com/hub/What-Does-China-Have-To-Do-with-the-Fannie-Freddie-Bail-Out

Naftel, i guess you also believe that the Fundamentals of our Economy are Strong, just like McCain & the Bush Admin did, before our whole economy came crashing down, huh???

Read the above link & you will see that we are dependent Each & Every Day on Chinese money/lines-of-credit. And without which, almost overnight, we will be reduced to abject poverty & Anarchy/starvation!

The Chinese Yuan for decades, has been heavily undervalued. So it's no surprise that in these times with our economy collapsing, the dollar is increasing in value against it.

And at least the Chinese still HAVE a huge volume of factories. Most of our manufacturing capacity now resides in China & elsewhere including Europe.

The Chinese & the whole world for that matter, can still buy Chinese made products. And European made products. We here in America, CANNOT buy American made products to any significant degree! And a nation's long-term economic health & wealth in the end, is Always dependent upon it's capacity to manufacture & produce domestically.

We are a nation that has been living on & surviving on CREDIT , borrowing money from the Chinese & E.U. so as to finance our lifestyle here.

Which is why our finances & economy are now being ravaged & is so difficult to correct, after the subprime crisis was the last straw that broke our (camel's)economy's back.

China , Japan & the E.U., will ultimately in the long-term be able to manufacture & export their way out of trouble, to natural resource super-rich powers/global areas like Russia, the Mid-East & Latin America. And in-turn, Russia, the mid-East & Latin America can export vast mineral resources & oil back to the E.U. & China.

We on the otherhand, are saddled with the greatest amount of debt BY FAR, than any other country on earth. Maybe as much as & well over a hundred Trillion dollars in public & private debt. And what little manufacturing capacity we still have left, is in Serious trouble & unable to compete internationally. Example, our car industry! You-know, such as GM , Ford & Chrysler???

And we are also irrevocably dependent on Asian lines of credit to finance our DAILY national spending needs. Without which, our entire society here in the U.S. will collapse into a nightmare that will make our current one look like a picnic.

Go ahead & read the Link again, hon.

http://hubpages.com/hub/What-Does-China-Have-To-Do-with-the-Fannie-Freddie-Bail-Out

And maybe then, you will begin to see the light that  Euros & Gold, are the only way to go for the mid to long term. And ultimately when our economy collapses catastrophically due to the Debt that the GOP has spectacularly ran up in the last 8 years, what with their Iraq debacle & such; then Asia & the Eurozone are gonna fare ALOT better than we will.

In that day, we wont even be able to AFFORD our military.

I should have added that a likely mid to long term scenario, with our debt being so vast & the world's view of our fiscal incompetence, that China , Japan, Russia, the Eurozone, Oil rich mid-east & Latin America, are likely one day to resort chiefly to trading among themselves.

Which will mean that China , Japan & the Eurozone will stop extending lines of Credit to us & call for us to pay the vast Trillions that we owe them!

Just imagine that scenario for a few minutes. What are we going to do? Print even more U.S.Dollars out of thin air to pay for our way-of-life?

Which our international creditor-nations will refuse to value? Our dollar & economy will then go the way of Zimbabwe's!

And in case you haven't noticed, in the last 8 years our GNP-per-capita has Already shrunk by over 2 thousand dollars! Whereas under the 8 years of Bill Clinton it had increased by over 6 thousand dollars per capita.

The Bush Admin debts is Already Killing our way-of-life & American dream/standard of living.

So imagine what it will collapse to, if China one day refuses to continue financing our lifestyle with more of their money!

Like i said, the rest of the world might one day soon decide to concentrate trading among themselves & stop financing our Debt bloated economy that the Repubs have flushed down the toilet!

And also call for us to pay what we owe them. That will be an epic disaster for us, Naftel.

Naftel, i guess you also believe that the Fundamentals of our Economy are Strong

The economy is bad, but I believe American can overcome. Sorry if my optimism doesn't work for you. I am sorry you have lost hope. I see tremendous opportunity, not defeat. I am sorry you disagree. When I am "reduced to abject poverty & Anarchy/starvation!" you can say I told you so and if that time comes I will reassess my position. But, if there is a solution, buying into that defeatist mentality prematurely will not help solve the problem.

The Chinese & the whole world for that matter, can still buy Chinese made products. And European made products. We here in America, CANNOT buy American made products to any significant degree!

If this is true, why are their markets falling in lock step with ours? Why aren't people buying Euros and driving the price up? The first quarter of 2009 is going to be a disaster for the Chinese manufacturers as Americans pass by their cheap-ass toys that break after 15 minutes this holiday season.  Oil is already below $85 and will continue to fall as people change their driving habits. Go ahead and bet on the Euro or the Yuan or factories in China... I still believe in America even if you have and many like you have given up.  As people like you are panicing, selling their American stocks and abandoning ship, people like me will be buying them up at discount prices and leading the way in building new, more responsible American companies.

I am sorry that my mentality bothers you so and I appologize for my delusional optimism, but it is my hope that this will create new and better opportunity for American entrepenuers not armageddon, but if it is armageddon, can I stop it by screaming "HERE IT COMES"? I feel that I personally have opportunities that I have not had in my entire lifetime. I think lower stock prices and lower real estate prices will prove to be a boon for me and my family over the next 10 years. It makes me sad that you have such little faith in this country and have nothing but pessimism about your future. I hope it gets better for you. I truely do. And I hope your investments in Euros and Gold (the next bubble?) provide good growth and dividends. Still, I find it amazing how many American people, who say they love their country, want America to fail at this time so that they can be right and say "I told you so." I would rather be wrong and stand with my country than throw in the towel and look for my financial salvation in foreign economies, but I do genuinely hope it works out for you.

Roxanne, I admit that everyting you are saying is POSSIBLE, but I do not think it is inevitable or even probable. And, even if it is, Euros and gold will not save you. Other than decoration and a few industrial applications, what value does gold have in the 21st century. An read up on European banking right now... they may very well may have bigger problems than ours.

From you latest post:

Which our international creditor-nations will refuse to value? Our dollar & economy will then go the way of Zimbabwe's!

Microsoft alone is worth more than every industry in Zimbabwe combined. And we can still make everyting we truely need right here in the United States. Cars, houses, food, agriculture equipment, airplanes, fire engines... the list goes on and on. What we can't make are $15 Christmas presents for our children and the sooner we stop buying them the better. Will our country not be better off when this happens and it WILL happen this year?

Like i said, the rest of the world might one day soon decide to concentrate trading among themselves & stop financing our Debt bloated economy that the Repubs have flushed down the toilet!

American consumers account to 2/3 of the US Economy and the US economy supports the bulk of Chinese exports, more than Japan, Germany, Britain and Russia combined. It is not a question of them not financing our debt anymore... it is about US not taking it any moreand that will happes ever time you refuse to buy a Chinese product. (The other option, if you believe China IS the future and America is doomed is to sell all US stocks, invest heavily in Chinese companies and continue to buy ONLY their products. Under those conditions, that would be your best personal course of action, but I GUARANTEE that is not the solution to America's problems.)

in case you haven't noticed, in the last 8 years our GNP-per-capita has Already shrunk by over 2 thousand dollars! Whereas under the 8 years of Bill Clinton it had increased by over 6 thousand dollars per capita.

I think this has a lot to do with long-term effects of outsourcing jobs, which was highly regarded as the new way of doing business during the Clinton administration. If those jobs were still here, it would be part of our GNP, not India's. Bush may have maintained this, the practice gained traction long before he took office and it needs to change.

Anyway, it was fun having this discussion. I guess I'm taking the "long-shot" bet and putting my chips on America. Good luck to you with your Euro-Asia-Russia bets. I'll either go bust or get rich, such is the American way. And if America collapses and I go broke, I'd rather go down with the ship than try to transform myself into a Euro-asia-russiacan.

Rozanne, before you rush off and convert all of you dollars to Euros, you should read this story posted today on newsweek.com.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/163272

Europe does not seem to be the safe haven you think it is.

All you said still does not negate the fact that only 6 years after a 1 to 1 parity launch, today $19 billion for example, is ONLY 14 billion Euros.
Also that China , Japan, & the Eurozone, are not close to a hundred trillion dollars in public & private debt like we are!

I'm not an economist, but my bet will be with the currency & economies of nations who still have a competitive manufacturing capacity and who are not saddled by suffocating debt.

I too believe the U.S. can overcome, but NOT if we have another 4 to 8 years of the Repubs incompetence & chronic fiscal MISmanagement. & their continuing willingness to spend hundreds of billions of our tax dollars in Iraq...
...make that hundreds of billions of Borrowed Chinese $$$ in Iraq!!

The Repubs are the party of fiscal responsibility my big fat red buttocks.

Roxanne,

While I do agree that we are dependent on China to keep loaning us money, I must disagree with you on your statement that they will demand it back and quit doing business with us.  The fact of the matter is that they are also dependent on us, as we are the number 1 consumer of Chinese exports.  They will not sever such a lucrative tie.  I think it is far more likely that they will use our debt to their advantage by holding it over our heads when they finally make a militaristic move against Taiwan.  I believe you are right in the fact that we need to get out from under this debt, but for different reasons.  I also disagree with the suggestion that the Euro and Yuan are not effected by the American economy... the truth is that there is no true individuality in the market anymore.  What happens in one market is felt in nearly all the markets around the world.... such is the result of corporate globalization.  The only way a country doesn't take any economic damage is by being a completely isolationist country (which is non-existent in today's markets).  Also, Naftel is right that if we are to stimulate our economy we need to invest in American companies.  However, you have brought up some points that I side with you on...

Naftel,

You need to stop questioning people's patriotism.  Just because someone is scared of the current economy and wishes to find stability where they can, doesn't make them un-American... in fact that is true capitalism, for there is no place for loyalty in capitalism... it's all about the money(which isn't bad, it just is, what it is).   Roxanne is right that we have an abysmally low amount of exports, and it is exports and taxes that fund a government, without exception.  Roxanne is also right that we are dependent on China to keep buying up our national debt.  Roxanne is likewise correct in saying that the war is not helping, but hurting the U.S. and you are well aware of my views on that subject as per my previous comments.

You need to stop questioning people's patriotism. Just because someone is scared of the current economy and wishes to find stability where they can, doesn't make them un-American.

I'm not questioning anyones patriotism. I have some investments in China and Europe myself, but I think putting all of your eggs in that basket is a mistake. And, in the long run, I don't think it will provide the "stability" you speak of when compared to our economy right here at home. I guess I just have more faith int he country than that... Sorry, but I am betting on US, not them.
I also believe that we need to stop buying Chinese made products immediately. I am so sick of the cheap toys my kids get that break in 15 minutes. This Christmas, everything that they open that says "Made In China" will be taken back to the store on December 26th. I have already told my kids to be prepared to be disappointed. Whatever is to blame, the republicans, the war, Georg Bush himself, I personally will stop sending MY dollars to China and getting garbage in return.

Roxanne is right that we have an abysmally low amount of exports and it is exports and taxes that fund a government, without exception. 

This is true and it is also why the devaluation of the dollar is a good thing, because it makes US exports more affordable for the rest of the world to buy. I'm trying to see the doom amd gloom and I'm usually pretty good at finding it, but I see several positives in what otherwise seems like the end of the financial world.

I don't disagree with you that we need to cut down on purchasing foreign exports including those from China.  I agree that the problem is that we are importing more that we are exporting.  Also if you'll check above, I also stated that you were right about investing in American companies.  The issue I took was that it seemed you were linking Roxanne's actions to being unfaithful to America.  I agree that the market will rise again as it has in the past, but this is a frightening time for many and I certainly can understand why they would look to foreign markets (though I myself would tend to buy stock here while it's cheap).

What's interesting is that while you state "reasonable to believe", I am wondering "Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable DOUBT." None of us were there for this to form an educated opinion, so yes it is a CHARACTER assassination. It's called gossip and you should be better than that.

Listen, the country is facing two wars and an economy that is through the floor.  The last thing that should be on anyone's mind is whether Obama was on the board with person who was a terrorist 40 years ago.

Assume for a second that the country is at peace, the economy is running a surplus, and that both candidates are spending their time debating the issues.  At that time, then you can make about about past events.  But not now. 

Lets focus on the large issues at hand before we focus on minor tweaks.  And yes, the Ayers connection is right now a minor tweak.

This is A SERIOUS ISSUE. Are you going to IGNORE a president's TIE to "let's say" to a SUICDE BOMBER? 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you are totally attempting a smear campaign. Every association you listed has been in the news for months and months. Anyone who can use a search engine can find numerous journalistic entities who have looked into these allegations.

The timing of this smear tactic just happens to be when McCain is way down in the poles? He was condemning these political tactics just a few months ago. Your not only  smearing Obama, but you threw in the "suicide bomber" just for effect.

McCain has his own "guilt by associations" and you should be fair by reminding the voters of this too. How about you just admit your man McCain will put anything and everything ahead of country to get elected.

geon said; TACKTIC? CONNEDCTION? RESEANABLE?

With all due respect sir or madam, you are an idiot. Please run spell check on your next pathetic post. ALSO, PLEASE UNSTICK YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY DAMMIT!

Frank, please be reseanable. There may be no connedction between the writer's intelligence and the ability to run spell check. I am thinking this is a tacktic to make his or her argument appeal more to the common man, you know, Joe Six Pack. Case sensitivity is the concerns of East coast elitist.

"Frank, please be reseanable. There may be no connedction between the writer's intelligence and the ability to run spell check. I am thinking this is a tacktic to make his or her argument appeal more to the common man, you know, Joe Six Pack. Case sensitivity is the concerns of East coast elitist."

I suggest you use spell check more often. 

All I have to say is Keating 5?

This is what we know about John McCain

...but Senator McCain was willing to work across the aisle on that one. He's a maverick.

Yeah like McCain's suspicious associations with Keating, Pastor Hagee, Sen. Phil Gramm and Harry Sargeant. 

I suggest you use spell check more often As per usual, somebody here is the first last to get a joke. Keep up the good work.

how about McCain's serving on the board of an ultra right wing racist and anti-semitic group?  That fair game?

Beyond that, wasn't "The First Dude" of McCain's running mate involved in some sort of wacko secessionist organization just a couple years ago? Why isn't that more important then some prof Obama may have met while working for a non-profit group that once did some nasty things when Obama was, like, 8. It's not like he married the guy.

Naftel, I disagree with you in respect to "not being attacked for several years now."  As Americans we have very very short memories, we live in the here and now.  Terrorists don't have some requirement to strike again right away, they are perfectly content to sit back and plan.  I certainly believe that the U.S. is doing a better job at monitoring these groups but I would not look at it as a total success due to the fact that we have not been attacked again.  I myself think that the "we've not been attacked again" mentality is ridiculous and only goes to show how short sighted we can be.

William Ayers is a old white man not a suicide bomber and was never even convicted of a single crime

oh i am counting on McCain losing his cool...i can almost guarentee it will happen...he is struggling and desperate.

counting? only counting?!

I'm praying for it!

I'd really hate to waste that entire box of popcorn I've bought.

I fully expect Sen. McCain to do a Palin and change the subject when asked direct questions by the debate audience about the economy, health care, etc. He wants to keep attention on Obama's character. He cannot win on substance. Every national poll shows that Obama leads in that area (perhaps for a reason no more complex than the fact that he's not a Republican).

So, Sen. Obama, for every one of McCain's attempts to change the subject to your associations, experience, etc., memorize this line:

"Sen. McCain, I don't believe that that's what the American people want to talk about today. The American people are tired of yesterday's Bush/Cheney/Rove style of politics that you obviously believe still work."

Every thing that Sen. Obama says tonight - including redirecting attention back to the issues, must continue to tie John McCain to George W. Bush, as well as imply that John McCain is yesterday, Barack Obama is today. If he can stick to that line of attack, he'll win the debate. If he starts defending himself, he'll lose. Let someone else defend him after-the-fact (Biden's and other surrogates' role), he needs to stay on message and connect with voters.

Bor you are getting it wrong, every point it goes down makes it easier for Obama to get elected. People are blaming McCain for the deregulation policies of his whole career for this problem. So, the DOW goes down, Obama's ratings go up. Simple.

In the anticipation of Obama’s coming, the reaction among investor is to withdraw they money for the US market.

if they were that good at anticipating they are really stupid for not pulling it out before the dow went down 1500 points I certainly would have.

The best way for Obama to get under McCain's skin is for Obama to remain calm, cool and stick to the facts.  I'd love to hear McCain pop one of George Carlin's seven words you can't say on TV.

Issues? We don't need no stinking issues! Thus saith Grampy McStain...

No- she and her paramour Grampy McStain are both computer challenged.

I think so

DW, my understanding of the debate setting of the town hall style will have an audience of strictly registered 'independents'.

So, it shouldn't automatically be a supportive audience for McCain.

It should be interesting to say the least. I hope Obama keeps his cool while pushing McCain's buttons. I would love to see the REAL McCain come out. I think everyone should see him for what he really is. A knee-jerk hothead that's going to piss off the wrong person and get us all blown up.

Thank you, DCStone, I am thinking of leaving work early again to see this.

2nd shift sux!

That's a understatement!

I find it appalling that she sits in judgement of Obama's connections and yet refuses to cooperate with the investigation into Trooper-gate. (I am from NY, and we had one of those here with Spitzer).

Also her husband and herself are connected with a group that wants to have Alaska succeed from the union.

On top of that she won't address any of these issues in an interview, yet Obama and Joe both visit Sunday morning shows.

Sarah Palin just called herself an anti-Semite americablog. com/2008/10/sarah-palin-just-called-herself-anti.html

Palin and McCain are trying to use the Ayers and reverend Wright connection as something bad for Obama, it may backfire on them. And, besides, this was what Hillary tried to do in the primaries, and look where she is now.

One of the people in her campaign(who now works in the Obama campaign) today said on CNN that the McCain campaign is going to lose, because as he knew from being in the Hillary campaign and having tried it using the Ayers and the reverend thing on Obama, and that it didn't work.

Sarah Palin just called herself an anti-Semite americablog. com/2008/10/sarah-palin-just-called-herself-anti.html

Uh, is that not anti-Israel?

• But she war the pin, above the American flag???
• I don't get it ???
• Was she lying??
• Who is this Sarah Palin???

Ahhh, you would be correct DW!!!! She just keeps steppin' the the stinky poo doesn't she?

She bathes in it, Angie.

Ohh...Lipstick on a Pig!!!!

I hope that don't make me sexist, am a woman after all. I guess there must be a special place in hell for me.

bwhahahaha!

My hope is that he fires back, or refutes whatever smear McCain decides to bring up, and then moves back to the issues.  I think by emphasising McCain's desire to change the subject, Obama can accurately show that McCain cares more about being elected, than he does about the issues that concern the American people. 

he was not exonerated when you are censured that is not exonerated

From my understanding it was labled as "poor judgement in lobbying" or something. Poor judgement sounds about right. His ticket shows that!

We all know John McCain was long ago exonerated by both Democrats and Republicans of any wrongdoing in the so-called Keating 5 scandle.

The Senate Ethics Committee disagrees with you. But thanks for playing.

I will say it again, HIS WIFE & FATHER IN LAW made money from S&L.
And McCain has a list of "bad judgements"

1. Why don't we start with cheating on 1st wife.... with Cindy
2. Cheating on Cindy
   Calling Cindy a C word
   Trying to offer up Cindy to a Biker Babe Contest
3. There are Republicans that are afraid of him due to his erratic anger management issues.
4. G. Gordon Liddy
5. Keating-5

I am sure there are more,,,,,anyone????

She is retrieving already!

retrieving????? 

It is entirely possible that the continued stock market declines are a reflection of the most recent Presidential polls. Ultimately, the economic decline is good for the lowest wage earners as stocks are 30% cheaper than one year ago, houses are much cheaper (for those who didn't default and can still get a loan) and interest rates will likely rise, providing greater return on savings. Of course, this assumes his tax policies don't inhibit economic recovery and job creation.

Oh for the love of God Bor you posted this exact same dribble on another post.

Put the six pack down already.....we get it, you're an idiot. You dont need to drink beer to drive the point home.

I think Bor just likened our economy to a golden retriever.  This isn't a dog show Bor.

.....we get it, you're an idiot. You dont need to drink beer to drive the point home

Drinking & Driving does not mix. ;)

mcarey:

I think he meant "retreating." As in on the up side.

Doesn't 'retreating' mean to go down? As in to turn around 'run' away from an opponent?

Coincidence?

DOW and Obama numbers are exact opposites!

Mark who?

The Right's complaints would seem almost reasonable, if only they had a clue what they're talking about.

Iarnuocon, that is funny isn't it?

They don't even know the philosophy enough to spell the man's name correctly.

Oh please! The guy died in 1972, Obama was what - 12 years old.  What's your connection, that he was a community organizer and Obama probably read one of his books.  Damn, you people are desperate.

Desperation=the state of unbelief.

To choose not to believe. Real sad! :(

What is even more remarkable is that Obama is using Rovian tactics on the GOP.

By concentrating on select core groups in select cities and states and having generous support structure throughout the country. 

It is so awesome, the Dem's are beating them at their own game.

Though I honestly think you have a valid point, the ALL CAPS is a code of honor violation, please read it again.

Jerry:

Stop yelling at us and crawl back in that hole of a mouth of yours.  Anyone that has been on here for "let's say a week" knows where you stand.

I am not voting for history, I am voting for the best candidates to lead this country for the next 8 (yes, I said 8) years.

Obama/Biden 08 for 8

Exactly why is it that anyone who is not for McCain is voting for "history".

You need to pull your head out of the sand and LOOK at McCain. Really look at him.

• He is not a Conservative Republican (the far right does not trust him ... thus Palin
• He is may not be running as the 1st White man, but his ambition is to succeed his father & grandfather.
• He is a war monger, it is the only tool he is willing to use in foreign conflict. Our army is spread too thin, and Bush has damaged our National Guard.

I wish it were.

Maybe we will all wake up on 01-20-09 and cheer again.

Go OBAMA/BIDEN!!!

That would mean we won't get to celebrate VICTORY on Nov. 5th.

Obama/Biden '08

Oh, Angie, I am there girl!!!!