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'Joe the plumber' and Obama’s tax plan

Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
only-on-msnbc-com, john-mccain, the-debates, barack-obama�s
msnbc.com News — The Associated Press, HOEP
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— TOLEDO, Ohio - “Joe the plumber,” the new face of middle-class America after Sen. John McCain made him famous in Wednesday night’s presidential debate, isn’t technically a plumber, and he probably wouldn’t be adversely affected by Sen. Barack Obama’s tax plan. But the issues he raises are important and worth examining for their impact on small businesses.

Joe the plumber — Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, 34, of suburban Toledo, Ohio — is the first to say that he’s not the story and that no one should listen to him when it comes to tax policy.

“I just hope I’m not making too much of a fool of myself and can get some type of message out there as far as, you know, really watch actions and learn for yourself,” Wurzelbacher said Thursday outside his home. “Don’t take other people’s opinions.”

Wurzelbacher first came to attention over the weekend, when he engaged Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, in a six-minute discussion of tax policy at a rally in Holland, Ohio. He told Obama that he was a plumber and was hoping to buy his boss’s business, which he said made $250,000 to $280,000 a year. He was concerned, he said, that Obama’s economic proposals would mean he’d be kicked into a higher tax bracket.

Wednesday night, McCain adopted Wurzelbacher as the representative of struggling middle-class Americans, addressing many of his comments directly to “Joe the plumber,” whom he misidentified as “Joe Wurzelburger.”

“The real winner last night was Joe the plumber. Joe’s the man,” McCain said Thursday at a campaign rally in Downington, Pa. “He won, and small businesses won across America. They won because Americans are not going to let Senator Obama raise taxes in a tough economy.”

‘There’s a lot I’ve got to learn’
Legally speaking, Wurzelbacher isn’t a plumber, because he isn’t licensed by Toledo, Lucas County or the state of Ohio. A representative of the Toledo Building Inspection Division said a plumber must be registered with the state and only then can apply for a city plumbing contractor’s license.

Wurzelbacher said he worked under the license held by his boss, Al Newell of Newell Plumbing and Heating Co. of Toledo. Newell is a licensed plumbing contractor in Toledo, records show. But anyone working under Newell should have a journeyman’s plumbing license or an apprenticeship license, officials said.

Building Inspection officials said Newell was responsible for making sure that anyone working under him was licensed. The Toledo Plumbing Board of Control may consider sanctions against Wurzelbacher or Newell, officials told NBC affiliate WNWO of Toledo.

“There’s a lot I’ve got to learn” about the plumbing business, Wurzelbacher said Thursday.

Wurzelbacher also acknowledged that he had no specific plans for buying Newell’s business, saying he and Newell had simply talked about the idea from time to time. He might have difficulty making the purchase: Court records from his divorce show that Wurzelbacher made $40,000 in 2006.

Even if he did buy Newell Plumbing and Heating, Obama’s tax plan wouldn’t affect him. While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company’s estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that.

In any event, Obama’s tax plan specifies that the higher rate would apply only to income above the $250,000 threshold. Assuming Wurzelbacher’s income as owner somehow hit $280,000 — the top end of his supposition of the company’s revenue — only the extra $30,000 would be taxed at a higher rate.

Joe says Obama would be ‘hurting others’
Analysts calculated that the extra tax would amount to $900, which would likely be more than offset by separate provisions of Obama’s plan: a 50 percent tax credit for health care and elimination of the capital gains tax for small businesses.

“I’d have to look at your particular business, but you might end up paying lower taxes under my plan and my approach than under John McCain’s,” Obama told Wurzelbacher during their exchange last weekend.

At the time, Wurzelbacher replied, “Oh, yeah, I understand that.” But by Thursday, he had reconsidered.

“If you believed [Obama], I’d be receiving his tax cuts, but I don’t look at it that way,” he said. “He’d still be hurting others.”

Wurzelbacher, a registered Republican, refused to say whom he would vote for, insisting that “I want the American people to vote for who they want to vote for. I just want them to be informed when they make that vote.”

But he hinted that his choice would be McCain, the Republican standard-bearer, whom he said it would be “an honor” to meet. Asked about other issues by a covey of curious reporters, Wurzelbacher voiced strongly Republican opinions.

“Social Security’s a joke,” he said. “I have parents. I don’t need another set of parents called the government. Let me take my money and invest it how I please.”

On immigration: “I wish our borders were closed.”

And on the war in Iraq, which McCain has strongly supported: “I’m not sorry we’re in Iraq. ... It’s made us safer. I absolutely believe that.”

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slgam

The details of Joe the Plumber's situation are more important than you argue, when you consider Joe's future likelihood - or not - of hiring employees (ie. job creation) and the levels of corporate tax rates vs. the rest of the world (where jobs are disappearing to) that any entrerpeneur will study when deciding where to establish their business.  With a pro-labour, interventionist, big taxing, big spending president like Barack Obama, it won't be the USA where those investment dollars (and jobs) go.  Sadly it will take a few years for this reality to hit those who cannot afford even harder hits than they have already experienced.  But then, "the Obama doctrine" depends on hoards of dependant victims to keep him in power.  Socialists love downtrodden people.  It's job security for them.

But the real "NEWS' of the interview with Joe, (no matter who he is, or isn't), is Obama's admission that he intends to "SHARE THE WEALTH".  Wow.  Open class warfare from your messiah.  And this is "change"?

So America, if you love France - vote Obama, because that is his vision for the USA.  If you hope to become successful so you can give your money away to people who haven't lifted a finger, vote Obama.  If you think Hugo Chavez is a great guy, vote for his admirer Obama.  If you love unfettered European-style immigration, vote Obama.  If you dream of castrating the military and giving up our hard-won advantage over the rest of the world in the military field, vote Obama.

Finally, if Fox News is alone responsible for a three point swing towards McCaine in the polls, then by that same reasoning, having MSNBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and all of Hollywood totally and unabashedly in the tank for Obama must account entirely for whatever lead he has.

"Joe the Plumber" has undermined your carefully-laid scenario to elect your guy, and you obviously don't like that.  Thus your incredible attacks on a simple everyday U.S. citizen from Toledo.  How shameful.

It tells me that John McCaine still has a great chance to win this thing.

    Reply#1 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:53 PM EDT
    GOP Rules

    I am so amazed how hard people try to smear Joe.  Joe frankly doesn't matter.  His question is what matters.  Wake up people.  That ridiculous candidate is going to slaughter any American dream ever dreamed. 

    For God sakes, I hope people are striving to make $250,000 measly dollars a year with a business.  Five employees making $50,000 a year would do that.  I guess when Obama says he will only tax two percent of small business he really means micro-business. 

    Liberals have a few morals and quit attacking a guy who just asked a simple question of your candidate.

      Reply#2 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:34 AM EDT
      Jean-653786

      They are so mean to Joe the Plumber. This media is Obama's political police!!!!!!!

      How dare Joe speak out against socialism (Under Obama)! You guys (MSNBC) are making regular Americans afraid to speak their mind! You are taking our freedom of speech away and replacing it with FEAR!!!!!!!!!

      MCCain gets my vote for sure after this non-sense!!!

      I can't belive a medica company choses to be a pawn in this madness.

      Let's look at this quote frm Winston Churchill:

      . . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.

        Reply#3 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:04 PM EDT
        mdkamp

        It is disturbing how misinformed MSNBC is on this topic.  'Joe' is not the issue & you know it.   Obama's socialism is the issue.  Please get, at least, that straight.

          Reply#4 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:28 PM EDT
          An American-654036

          Why is the media digging into "Joe's" background?  Does it really matter how much money "Joe" made last year or whether or not he is technically licensed as a plumber?  All he did was go to rally and ask legitimate questions.  We should be focusing on the questions that he brought up not his skeletons.  I'm sure we all have them, candidates included! 

            Reply#5 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:38 PM EDT
            An American-654036

            We should all stay focused on the issues.

              Reply#6 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:49 PM EDT
              mark v.

              Wake up America! Joe will never make more than 250,000 dollars per year, but "he doesn't think it's right to raise the taxes of people who do". well look at those people. Cindy Mccain just released her taxes, she made 4.2 million and paid 1.1 million in taxes. THIS IS ONLY A 25% TAX!! IN HER BRACKET ALL INCOME OVER 174,850 SHOULD BE TAXED AT 35%. Joe the plummer is paying more than 25% in income taxes, so are you and so am I. But the republicans took our tax write offs away from us. it's only the rich who get them. and get them they do. Sara Palin's taxes are similar, in 2007 she made 170,000 and paid 25,000 in taxes. DO THE MATH, HER TAX RATE ENDED UP AT 15%. But 2006 was better than 2007 for her. The Palin's made 130,000 and paid 12,000 in taxes. DO THE MATH 12,000 DOLLARS IS 9.2% OF 130,000 DOLLARS!!! LOOK AT YOUR TAXES DO YOU PAY 9.2% IN INCOME TAXES? NO WAY!! AND JOE THE PLUMMER FEELS SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE? One last factor, S.S. taxes are only taxed on income upto 90,000 at 4%. the people making more get a break from that. IT'S TIME FOR EVERYONE TO PAY, NOT JUST THE MIDDLE CLASS

              • 3 votes
              Reply#7 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:23 PM EDT
              lynn-654377

              The money should go to the ones actually paying the taxes and not a welfare check to the ones that don't. I call for a fairer tax system across the board. I fell we as Americans send enough taxes to Washington and it is goverment that is blowing it.  

                #7.1 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:54 PM EDT
                Suzanna-655685

                I don't think you really understand taxes. A lot of wealthy people just give money away to charities. Better to do that than have the crazy government decide where to put it. Do you realize that you get to deduct your home and your children? That is why you can't compute it correctly.

                The best plan is a flat tax rate for everyone with NO deductions for anyone. Only people making less than $20000 should be exempt.

                My husband and I worked our way from NOTHING to having the American dream. We made sacrifices and moved our way up in doing so (working 80 hours a week). Now, we are watching it disappear. Contrary to the liberal views, it is not President Bush's fault! It started with 9/11, then the many hurricanes and wildfires and tragedy and war to hurt our economy. No other President has had to deal with that. What about all the stupid Democrats that ran 2 years ago saying they would change everything????? It has only gotten worse. Why???? Because they wanted to drive it worse to make way for a Democrat president. Think about it. They wouldn't work with Bush. It takes all of them to tango. Wisen up! 

                Anyway, my husband and I have built our dream home and may not be able to keep it once Obama becomes president because he is choosing to raise our expenses. Yeah, we made our choices based on what our income was and now Obama thinks we don't need that income. I don't want to lose my house so will we just quit eating? What will we cut?  We'll have to cut something to help pay for some lowlife that made poor choices! HOW IS THAT FOR AN AMERICAN DREAM?????? NOW, when I lose my house and business that pays taxes, there will be more strain on the government because they'll have to take care of my family. And how many other people feel like me????? If everyone else can be rewarded by being irresponsible, then I think I definately should be for being responsible. If I can't get rewarded by my hard work, then I'm not going to work!

                By the way, you need to understand that my income keeps me from taking my children as deductions. So, I pay the 35% on more income than what you probably pay on whatever salary you make.  

                  #7.2 - Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
                  mark v.

                  THE Palins only gave 8,000 dollars to cherity in the two years. so they had write offs the adverage american doesn't have. Look at the tax forms, anyone making under 90,000 a year has little or no writeoffs, thats why it's not write.

                    #7.3 - Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:42 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    ANM-654206

                    Who is Joe the plumber, really?  Did anyone take the time to find out who this guy really is?  It doesn't matter who this guy is if he truly represents mainstream America.  What are his true concerns?  Is it because he makes close to a quarter of a million dollars and is afraid that he has to pay his fair share of taxes like the ordinary American.  If he owes back taxes, maybe it's because he falls into that specific tax backet and makes enough to pay his fair share just like the rest of us.  If he's angry about Obama's tax plan could it be beause people that falls within this catagory would have to pay their share of the taxes instead of the continued enjoyment of getting tax breaks.  No one in their right mind would be angry with something would benefit them.  So it makes me wonder what is behind his anger.  Since he is enjoying the spotlight, maybe  someone should take the time to tell the true "Joe the plumber" story.  If he is the victim that they made him out to be, then I commiserate with him, if not, then shame on America.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#8 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:59 PM EDT
                    mark v.

                    Here we go again with the tax breaks for the rich will help hire people. Thats not true. When Bush took office he gave the rich a tax break and where are the jobs? Where is the surpluses we had in 1999, 2000 and 2001? he said tax breaks for the rich would get the economy going. THE SAME LINE MCCAIN IS USING.  When Clinton got into office he raised the TAXES on the rich. the Republicans said it would stop businesses from hiring new employees and drive the country broke. They were wrong then and now.  After 6 years we had surpluses. But one thing better, go to the IRS web site and look up tax stats. in 1994 115 million tax returns were filed, in 2000 129 million tax returns were filed, an increase of 14 million. now look at the latest figures for 2005 only 134 million returns filed. a small 5 million increase. ASK YOURSELF WITH THE BUSH TAX CUTS HE GAVE TO THE RICH,  WHY ONLY 5 MILLION NEW RETURNS AND STILL DEFICIT SPENDING? WHEN CLINTON RAISED TAXES ON THE RICH NOT ONLY DID WE HAVE SURPLUSES, WE GOT 3 TIMES THE NEW RETURNS FILED. AND YOU STILL THINK WE NEED MORE FOR THE RICH?

                      Reply#9 - Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:39 PM EDT
                      GOP Rules

                      Well, I guess it is all where you stand.  Personally, I get at least one call every two days with a job offer.  Under Clinton I struggled to keep a restaurant job.  Bush has had a lot to contend with that people just don't give him credit for.  Bush has managed two wars, seen hurricanes, 9/11, floods, and wild fires.  I realize and appreciate that a lot of people have struggled to keep a job but I also know that a lot of whiney people complain about not getting a job when they don't even look.

                      People are always going to be jealous of those who are more successful.  I am only a middle class citizen and deal with people thinking I had stuff handed to me when in reality, I worked like a dog to get where I am.  I have been to college twice and during my time in college I worked up to four jobs on top of the college and homework.  My wife basically raised our kids and ran a daycare so we could make it this far.  By the way, I have no intentions of slowing down and I don't what any dang handout from Obama who just stole it from somebody else who worked his/her tail off. 

                      My point is that now that I am here making a decent salary, some of the people I know from before are jealous and think I don't deserve what I have.

                      Just because you are jealous of somebody's success that does not give you any right to take from them and "share the wealth" with those who did little to nothing to better themselves. 

                        #9.1 - Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:10 PM EDT
                        mark v.

                        it's not about jealous, it's about paying your share. and this lie about giving people tax breaks to the top 1% will create jobs is a lie. look at the numbers. also forget giving it to the middle class, they will only spend it and get the economy started again...oops that wasn't the point was it? if you are getting a job offer every other day you are in the few, unemployment is at a high and getting higher. bush's tax cuts did nothing but make rich people richer. AND IT'S YOUR KIDS WHO WILL HAVE TO PAY IT OFF. (AS i DON'T HAVE KIDS)

                          #9.2 - Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:58 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          bv48

                          Sorry but Joe obviously needs more information and education.  He's sure willing to spout off his mouth but can't back any of it up.  We're "safer" because we're in Iraq????  No, we can't protect ourselves from real threats because we're busy in a country that did not attack us, didn't have WMD and wasn't hiding Osama Bin Laden nor was there any association.  Whether or not anyone likes it, we need a strong tax base to pay for roads, schools, bridges and military.  Social Security is one of the biggest drags on our economy but partly because for many it is the only money they have coming in.  We have children and adults who are labeled as "disabled" and put on social security from birth.  We also have people who are very wealthy collecting benefits.  Not the least of which are our "public" servants (Senators, Representatives, Mayors) who tend to vote for a raise for themselves each year.

                            Reply#10 - Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:39 AM EDT
                            fed up idiots

                            what  kind of morons are here?? this is not about republicans or democrats its about are country you fck idiots!!! i can give a ratt ass about your party lines, take a look around the country you bunch of morons , where the fck do you all live in??? it doesn"t take a smart person to figure it out, rich or poor if this country falls apart  we all will  suffer, so stop talking about Bush and what he has done because the only thing this moron has done is fck this country up!!! and ya i'm from Texas  and i said it, i work hard for what i have but, it doesn't help when gas prices are so high and when i cann"t get a loan to buy new trucks for my business and ya the trucks i buy are american(chevy)  and ya i don't have health insurance  and my employees neither and just hope to god i don't get sick!! i could provide insurance for my employees , but alot of them don't want to pay the premiums are so high and i can only match half of it, and ya i I'M A SMALL BUSINESS NOT A JOKER WHO CLAIMS THAT HE WANTS TO BUY ONE AND TURNS OUT IT NOT TRUTH, WELL AT LEAST HE GOT HIS 5 MIN OF FAME, WHAT A FCK JOKE!!!ITS ALL IN ARE FAVOR TO KEEP AMERICA STRONG AND PRODUCTIVE, THIS IS NOT ABOUT PARTY LINES THIS IS ABOUT BEING AN AMERICAN!!!!!!  AND BY THE WAY ITS NOT THE FCK TAXES THAT KILL ME ITS THOSE FCK PROPERTY TAXES I HAVE TO PAY MORE EACH YEAR BECAUSE SCHOOLS ARE POORLY FUNDED BY THE FED GOVT, AS CITIES AND WHAT ELSE YOUR PROPERT TAX BILL HAS AND I PAY TWO PROPERTY BILLS EVERY YEAR AND THATS IS TAX TO THE BALLS!!!!! THANK YOU

                              Reply#11 - Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
                              Charlie-661099

                              You totally missed the point. The story should not be about Joe the Plumber. (See the first couple of responses above.) The story is that Obama intends to make it even harder for you, and all small businesses to make any money. So if you want even more of your hard earned money to go to people who don't work, then vote for Obama.

                              I prepare taxes for H&R block and last year did a return for a mother of two who earned only $5000 per year. That's right only Five Thousand. The only taxes she had withheld was Social Security, but her refund was about $2,500. I am confident she also get food stamps, Section 8 housing, and no telling what all else. Who paid for all this? The people like you and I who actually work. She doesn't deserve any more welfare, she needs to get and keep a real job.

                                #11.1 - Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:52 AM EDT
                                Reply
                                jlbzx6r

                                the truth is that joe the plumber owes $1200.00 in taxes, so officially how can you make such a big deal out of what has to say.  joe the plumber talks of a business dream that he can't even afford to do.  joe the plumber is merely a distraction from the real issues such as the economy, medicare, rights for veterans, iraq and afgan war.  i being handicapable am confined to a wheel chair right now, under mccain's plan the disabled and veteran's will suffer once again.  health should be a human right, most third world countrys have  this automatically.  if john mccain is for the reduction in medicaid i would assume he's also against medical research like george bush. under george bush medical research has gone over seas due to the lack of federal funding.  when it comes to the average middle class who are making $5,000,000 ( john mccain) a year they should pay there fair share in taxes.   

                                  Reply#12 - Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:32 PM EDT
                                  Dave-03038

                                  Listen, all I know is that an average guy asked a simple question.  All the media, especially MSNBC should be ashamed of themselves.  I'm of a genaration when media was supposed to be objective and unbiased.  Now they are unreputable, tarnished and untrustworthy. 

                                  I was undecided until I watched how the disgraceful media, politicians and insane left wing crackpots go off and try to destroy anyone or anything that stands in their way.  Some democracy. 

                                  You should all be ashamed of yourselves.  I have personally pursuaded hundreds of undecided voters to vote Right and they have pursuaded voters and so on and so on.  Lets see how real democracy works!

                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#13 - Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:09 PM EDT
                                  GOP Rules

                                  Exactly, Dave.  Joe was just a guy that was picked by Obama's team.  They knocked on his door.  Joe's question sparked an answer by Obama that all but destroyed the illusion that Obama isn't about socialism so the media did their best to destroy the poor guy.  Truly sad.  Honestly, I feel sorry for these dems because most of them truly believe the line of bull that they are getting spoonfed.  If any of these people actually opened their eyes and really thought about it Obama would not get more than a handful of votes.

                                    Reply#14 - Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:42 PM EDT
                                    Patrick-683108

                                    Why in the world is anybody listening to anything this guy has to say. I guess he's doing pretty good if he's thinking about buying a company. But I guess when you don't pay your taxes, like he owes, it gives you a little extra money. And do you think if he had a small company that he hire extra people like Mccain says he will. No he's going to put that tax break money that Mccain whats to give him, and put it in his pocket. So the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. Thank you republicans.

                                      Reply#15 - Sat Nov 1, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
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