Senate will debate $25 billion auto bill Monday

Isn't also great that he waited until Friday to throw his support at this. Still thinking they can get things past us on the weekends.

and these were the people crying, "obama is going to run this country into the ground with is spending. he'll turn the US socialist. "

...and this is...?

maybe they're throwing a hissy fit that mccain lost, so they'll bankrupt america

wronghanded1,

Think you're looking at it wrong. See, they're not against socialism in the least as long as the profits  remain private:)

Does everyone  watch or read the news.    Pres. Elect Obama is even wanting this to happen, but I guess your guy, has our interest at heart.    The bailout of the auto industry is also being pushed by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.    Thats even in the elite media papers    Is she pulling the wool over your eyes also or should we be looking at the government as a whole body and not Dem. or Repub..

Greg - You are very correct that the Dems are giving there support to this. However in this two party system we have we count on the Republicans to be a voice of reason when it comes to over the top spending. Historically that has been one of the things they have actually been useful for.

Now it would seem that they have lost all reason and it is quite alarming. And yes I think you are correct the government as a whole at this moment in time is to blame.

It seems they have all lost their way.    What you say about the Repub. is correct.   They lost message a long time ago, and the Dems. keep pushing the same message, even now, with the crises.   I really don't think government is going to change soon, just look over the past couple of decades, but I am optimistic that maybe, one day, we all will get a real change, and the future newly elected officials, that we finally vote in to office, will do what needs to be done, ethically and morally.    Wouldn't that be great !!

I forgot about that brothel deal....  thanks for the chuckle..  I laugh because it is so true yet sad at the same time.

I say screw the BIG 3 and send there CEO's to prison and have them work for cigeretts for there new boy friends.  No more Billion dollar bonus packages for you!!

We bailed out Chrysler once already and what did that get us???  Oh we get to do it again!!!  and again??  and again??

Politics is BIG buisness....  yet we keep voting the same people in year after year...

Look at the Kennedy dynasty and all the other senators and congressmen...

Once they get in they are set for life!! %$#  it!

kakael, you really need to use the correct tense..........we been looted.  jobs are gone. you did notice Obama wants to raise AG's food stamp levels.  It's a clue. 

once many are on food stamps....that access can be cut pretty quick considering it is all computerized now.:(

look at the little daily things and how they can go away.

Got. Our. Pensions.

They have all lost their minds.    Pelosi pushing this, Reid Pushing this, Obama pushing this, Bush pushing this, Paulson pushing this, Repub. sen. pushing this etc...    The funny thing is they aren't all from the same party.    That should tell you somehting.    Remember, the Dems are the majority and the Repubs. aren't stopping anything.    Which party is the worst.    They all voted the start of this whole bailout situation and unless someone stands up, we should be blaming them all.    I am conservative, but can't find anything good to say about anyone in the congress..

no they didn't all vote for the bailout...there was some with sane minds in both houses that voted against it...and there are still some who won't vote for anymore bailouts...

There were plenty votes to get it passed.    I wish the ones that didn't vote for it would give their names, yes I know some did, and they lost in the elctions, at least here in florida.    I wish everyone would figure out this isn't helping our country one bit..

well greg...i'm here in florida too...and Senator Nelson voted against it...my district rep voted for it but other reps statewise voted against it...

I like Sen. Nelson and yes, I am conservative in my voting.    He is one Dem. that really does what he says and I would keep voting for him as I have before.    SEE, we conservatives aren't all stupid.    I do vote for those that do and not just say no matter what party.

Sorry to say but, Unions aren't what they used to be.    My Mother in Law lives in Buffalo, and she saw first hand what happened to Buffalo Steel.    The Unions priced themselves to a point that the steel company couldn't keep up.    Costs got to high.  No different than the car manufacturers problems now.    People buying less and they can't support the union workers    Unions may have worked back in the day, but paying pensions forever, unless your the government, will finally kill a business.

Greg,

How right you are! When you factor in the allegedly punitive tax codes of Michigan as well as the union demands, you have a recipe for failure. I say "allegedly punitive" because I've not read the tax codes of Michigan, but folks who've lived there list the tax codes and unions as a reason why the state is sinking due to jobs moving out of the state.

Its time for us to stand up !!    I am a small business owner, supporting my family, and its getting harder.    I wish I had a Union that would pay me unreal income for less work.

Its time for us to stand up !!    I am a small business owner, supporting my family, and its getting harder.    I wish I had a Union that would pay me unreal income for less work.

I know where the government is handing out free money to @!$%#ups.

Please tell me where and I'll get alittle extra for you, as the company you work for folds and then your looking for the same thing.   You must not own a business by your comment.    If I'm wrong explain your comment.

I just figured it out ezeques;    You must be on welfare and don't care.  Thats why you know where its at  !!  I don't usually do this but your comment was so ignorant I had to.    I bet your the one bringing this country down with your handout requirement instead of real work.    Am I close?

This is fun.

The government is 'handing' out 700 billion dollars. YOu stupid or just into bashing those who are weak.

Are you saying your weak.    Or should you watch those that ruin us.   I take it government hasn't helped you much either.   The only thing I was bashing was government and the total non-factual, mean comment by ezeques.    Is hate and degridation all you or he knows.   If you want to get down and dirty, you will get that kind of answer back.   If you want to discuss something, most are civil.

dang...greg...thumbs down on that comment... :(

Just trying to keep the conversation lively.   If you would like, we can blog like normal people, instead of like me, getting in the gutter.  You have to admit, the little @$%#$@up, at the end of his statement was alittle over the top.

Greg I would like for you to explain what a union stands for and what they were established for and when they were established.

A union, originally stood for the rights of the worker.    Back in the day, workers were taken advantage of, more like slave labor.    Unions, at that time were a good thing.    As to time line when they were established, don't care.    Now a days, when labor makes more than $ 75 per hour which is more than some college graduate professionals make, with this economy, and companies still having to pay these wages and pensions, which by the way, pensions seem to number more than those actually working, is wrong.    I wish, my professional company, had the same benefit's they got.    My mother in law lives in Buffalo, and always, as we pass by, where Buffalo Steel used to be, when we visit, which her husband worked for, always complains about the Unions, pricing Buffalo Steel out of business, and her husband loosing his job.    Unions, back in the day, GOOD.    Unions now, BAD.    Especially with the economy like it is.

yet, without them just how long until we all go the way of the past, agian?

Why can't the unions do some compromising, and join the rest of us in trying to salvage our country's principals. If the auto issue were the only one, hell, have at it. But it's NOT.  We are all facing the fan, full frontal!

I don't think we would go to the past again.    We are alot smarter now than folks were then, and I don't think the U.S. citizen would allow it to happen again.    Remember the big uproar, a few years ago, when we found out products were being done by children over seas for some U.S. companies.    Didn't that get stopped quick.    Yes we are smarter now and wouldn't allow it to happen again.   Like they say, people try to not let history repeat itself but if it does, look out.

Sorry to re-post so fast but had another idea.   We are smarter than we think we are.    Just look at the post's that come through here.    Do you think these people would allow history to repeat?    Sometimes I scare myself not out of patting my own back, but, I think people here deserve more credit, no matter what they think, unless its hatefull and not thought out.   We all have opinions but sometimes, we probably all scare ourselves..

You are correct that the unions "stand"  for the rights of workers in the workplace. I work for Chrysler LLC I have yet to receive $ 75/hour on my paycheck, in our contract we are paid an hourly wage for 8 hours/day 40 hours/week anything beyond 8/day and40/week is established as time and one half and double time for Sunday. The contract also states that there will be mandatory overtime, maximum of 10hours/day Mon-Fri, 9 hours on Sat.

The unions also established the 40hour work week and overtime is to be a punishment for hours worked above and beyond the standard work week. I f the companies were not making money on vehicles built on Saturdays, Sundays and over 8 hours why do they have this language in our contract?

If the union wages were the driving cost behind autos explain the price difference between an American built auto and a Mexican built auto?

Chrysler LLC this week pai $30million out in bonuses to top execs I did not receive a pay raise this year we were given %3 of our base wages for the year of 2007.

Greed of the top execs of these companies will be the demise of these companies. Individual Greed.

@$75/hour times 2040 hours/year = $153,000/year straight time, I make $33.91/hour. 33.91 times 2040=69,176.40.

Geez debmo.   I was speaking total outlay the company pays so you can get the $ you make now is pretty close to what I make right now, because of the economy , but I have to work almost 60 hours a week to keep my business going and am on my wifes Southland corporation  medical insurance policy plus I don't get a retirement pension for life.    I am in the engineering field and, because of the economy, I haveto work that long to keep an income going.    I don't have a guaranteed pay check to look forward to every week like you do and have 3 kids to support.    Right now, the economy is bad, and I bet you still get the same pay check week in and week out.    When I retire, I hope social security and my, self paid retirement plan, pays off.   If you are guaranteed a pay check, even in these times, and the company, who falters in these times, still has to pay out these checks and pensions because unions gave you a guarantee,   What do you think may eventually happen.   I personally hope, for your sake, the Union would try to re-negotiate, as happened to buffalo steel, there will be no company for them to work against.    Remember, not all companies are union and the way things are going now, its people like me who you may be looking to for work.

As to the price difference, wouldn't it be plosible that, the workers in Mexico make less money than workers in the U.S..   Isn't that the way it is for over seas production.    They make less and the cars are less to us.

As to the wage/price difference the workers in Mexico do make considerably less than we do and the price of the vehicles do not reflect that difference. At our plant each truck that rolls off the end of the final line puts between $10,000 & $15,000 in the bank for Chrysler.As for re-negotiating our contract it has been opened several times for consessions but why should we concede when the upper echelon of Chrysler are not willing to concede. As for my paycheck coming in weekly, yes right now it is but as time goes on that is questionable and this part of our contract was put in to place along time ago for the down times as we are experiencing now. The company is to be putting money into this account continually. As for anything in our contract "given" to us, all the issues we are talking about were fought for back in the 50's,60's&70's with blood sweat and tears, the companies never "gave" anything . You are right, I may be looking to you for work one day, are you going to pay me a fair wage. Because of union won benefits is why your wife has an insurance plan at all. Apparently you are self-employed. I work 3rd shift,how is it you have time to be on the internet all day.

When your primary job is computer aided design, you can shift back and forth from plan drawings/design and discussions.    It breaks up the boredom of constantly calculating and computer design.    Especially when you work alone all day.    Of course, every once in a while, I have to get up from my chair and walk around.    It's not fun working by yourself.    Alittle conversation breaks up the day when all you have all day is a computor to look at.

To be alittle more detailed, I design complete residential subdivisions which includes roadways, water and sewer piping, grading, stormwater design, platting, residential building design,commercial property design, sewage treatment plants, water plants etc... and get all permitting completed for my clients to build.    Of course, being in the construction business, its taken a crap, and business is slow.    As to my wifes insurance with 7/11, it comes out of her pay check, alot less than if we had private insurance, but we still pay for it out of our pocket.

Amen to that.    Dems. Rule still same problem.    Repubs. ruled same problem.    Both supposedly working together, worse problem    I'm with you.    When does it stop.

car manufacterers=2.5 million workers.

jobs available?

solutions? come on vine and talk like I know everything....priceless.

definitely priceless as are car manufacturers.    Allowed to spend, must pay price. UGH! Ugh! Ugh!

I am married to a Union autoworker.  He works hard, highly trained,has not received a pay increase in 4 years, benefits are being cut and we live in fear that the plant will close.  But not once, has he railed about how much someone else is being paid.  It's not some stupid contest where the person with the highest salary wins...it's about earning a living, taking care of a family and working toward a pension.

Think about this...an autoworker in Missouri paid $30,000 in taxes.  Now extrapolate that out to 2.5 million workers.  How is the government going to make up for those lost taxes?  It will pay out unemployment insurance but the difference in taxes will cause a major shortfall.  2.5 million families without health care and I don't know how many retirees without a pension or health care.  I sure hope the small businesses are willing to hire. 

But hell, don't worry about it.  I am sure it will all work out.  The welfare program will get a good workout but it would be better than providing "loans" to the auto companies.  Makes sense to me.

debmo,

Sometimes those who are worried tend to attack.  i know how much @!$%# union workers take in times like these.  It is wrong thinking from a worried person , or attacks from those who believe they don't have enough and do not wish to see others get something.

I am relieved that there are those who made a living, produced a product that american have relied on for their own living.  fear brings out the worst in americans who have been without benevolent leadership. we will all find ourselves in a very uncomfortable place soon, but those who find themselves there first are not getting the understanding that those who find themselves there later recieve.

hope your situation holds....while you prepare for whatever outcome results...from our silent leaders.

Thank you, KL.  I agree completely that the management of these companies is horrible and have no legitimate business model but these attacks on Union workers is out of date.  There many have been a day when they made $30-$40 a hour but I can testify that day is long gone.

long gone, but there are those who wish people think that it is true, it causes division...we can't be divided so easily, can we.:)

The last article I read had it at 2.9 million jobs tied to car manufacturing, directly and indirectly.  If we lose those jobs, we will be at 10% unemployment in no time.  Can we really afford that?  I don't think so.  Given our current economic conditions, this could easily drive us into a depression.

Is it an ideal situation to have to keep bailing companies out?  Of course not.  But right now, the alternative is worse.  Let's get the auto industry over this hump, and make sure there are some regulations attached to the money.  Regulations not just for salaries and dividends and the like, but regulations that will force them to develop more fuel efficient, more competitive cars.

Rella, check out Ford in UK............

Now c'mon....did you really expect the CEO's to not give themselves bonuses?? ~said with a tinge of sarcasm~ I find it appalling that they make sure they're getting their million-dollar salaries along with their bonuses while they are crying for a hand out from the government.

hey bern...they haven't been paid their $30 million worth of bonuses yet...that's why their looking for the handout...

Looks as though the 30 million in question were only for upper management of Chrysler!!! Imagine that! The other two weren't even in that number, and they are the two top contenders of the Big Three.

Ford may be the one to survive, but I personally would NEVER buy one.  My parents bought me a used Ford when I was 16, and it was a piece of crap.  We got rid of it in 2 years because it was so bad.

Ford = Fix on Road Daily

Ford = Fix or Repair Daily

you really want to keep pumping tax dollars into this mess?  Don't you want some answer first as to how they use it, where they use it, and if they have an idea if it will actually save the situation?  We really want to go rushing in again...........and have it used badly or redirected?

Which man are you talking about, or should you add lady to that also.    Reid, Pelosi, Obama, Bush, Paulsen, even MCcain is supporting this.    No one twisted their arms.    Don;t you think its time to say, how is government is allowed to do this?

I think our country should be focusing more on our Economy, not cars! I mean sure, we drive cars, sure we pay for gas, but how about jobs? How could we be focusing on the unnecessary right now. I agree with you about no one is twisting their arms, sure. But where is Obama supposed to start, people expect him to just change the world with a snap at the fingers. Sure, he is president now, but we have to start over from all the damage Bush has created.

Tiffany Marie,....sweetheart......go read the constitution of the united states, then examine the bill of rights, and if you can read the Declaration of Independence.  When your done with that...start with the history of the Free Masons, and throw in some historical timelines, maybe if you figure it out, at castastrophic moments in history read about the administration before during and after.  Focus on relationships and those who are outcast and killed.  It's important.  Listen to a few alternative radio broadcasts and publications........but for sure. STOP LETTING CORPORATE MEDIA RULE YOUR UNDERSTANDING.

until then, stock up some food...get a water purifier, and take weapons safety lessons.

Why should they.    They already pulled record profits from us during the massive phoney gas hike.    The big three have to much outflow of cash, to Union Workers and retired folks because of the unions.    Sales are down, because of the economy, but they have to still pay these massive outlays.    Its like my company, if I give in to massive expenditure, I loose.    I don't know if these companies should fail, like I would, but I think, if they get the money, the strings should be strong and stout.

Pray to whoever's god that they are refused, reorganize and/or save themselves.  Then you will get a powerful view of just who gets the grease and who is the grease.

Facts can be a drag.       http://losangeles.injuryboard.com/miscellaneous/the-subprime-mess-and-phil-gramm-an-experiment-in-deregulation.aspx?googleid=242468

The Glass-Steagall Act provided the proper oversight and entity separation that would prohibit banks and other financial companies from merging into giant trusts (conflict of interests) -- giant trusts or corporations being more powerful, naturally, and having the seemingly limitless capital to lobby their corporate interests, however, with a very myopic scope (particularly when it comes to factoring in potential losses -- most banks, as seen in contemporary times, chose not to anticipate losses in the mortgage market; they presumed home prices would continue to appreciate).

In 1999, former Senator Phil Gramm (who is, incidentally, Senator John McCain's economic adviser and cochairs his presidential campaign) set out to completely gut the Glass-Steagall Act, and did so successfully, replacing most of its components with the new Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act: allowing commercial banks, investment banks, and insurers to merge (which would have violated antitrust laws under Glass-Steagall). Sen. Gramm was the driving force behind the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as he had received over $4.6 million from the FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate donations) over the previous decade, and once the Act passed, an influx of "megamergers" took place among banks and insurance and securities companies, as if they had been eagerly awaiting the passage of Gramm's Act.

Current discussion is developing into the usual round of 'dragging down' those who have done the job.  the worker.  everyone is up in arms becasue auto workers make "$a living @!$%#ing wage!" and most seem to be happy when we enmass jump the worker and demand that they make @!$%# wages like the rest of average america....better be careful what you ask for, you may get it this time, "enmass".

no will be happy until when?.........our manufactering jobs began to disolve a long time ago. I remember the discussion in the early 90's. Men were being forced to take 'service' jobs becasue the good paying jobs were disappearing.  Does anyone see a pattern here?  These executive attack dogs act on behalf of the wealthy boards who see another opportunity to stiff the market, the gov. and the customer (not that that group has any money left, and no credit-that's still frozen..hummmmmmmm).

 Now we have the (other) big 3, who have said in various reports to have been OK last year. Now, in light of the conditions, "We need to be bailed out, because the entire health of the labor market depends on it'.  IN yet another report they claim to have already begun retooling for the future in "green" and environmentally improved manuf. of autos. We (need better investigative reporting) now have a democratic congress telling us that they are looking for support for this auto bailout.

"ABC News' Jonathan Karl reports: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says she'll seek assistance for Detroit automakers during a lame-duck session next week. 

"Emergency assistance to the automobile industry would be conditioned on executive compensation restrictions, a prohibition on golden parachutes, rigorous independent oversight, and other taxpayer protections to ensure that any companies that benefit from this assistance – and not the taxpayers – bear the full burden of repaying any costs that are incurred."

Sound familiar?  But..........

Senator Christopher J. Dodd, Democrat of Connecticut and chairman of the banking committee, said he did not believe there would be enough Republican support to get the 60 votes needed to move a bill forward. “Right now, I don’t think there are the votes,” he said, adding that he personally favored aid for the automakers.

so......will 2.5 be thrust into unemployment when one fails? Or, after bankrupcy, will someone take it over, or will one just continue to prepare to retool and build the next gas saving, environmentally safe automobile?

and are there more options............this time we need to call and make ourselves very clear........take the time to give us answer!

or maybe, the senate is the place to get those add ons, you know, to get that package through that will 'save' the american auto worker.

how many americans are just throwing up their hands and shouting, "I surrender!"

make the call, stop this @!$%#. make it every day til they listen.

what are the steps for 'recall".

http://www.ehow.com/how_2096900_recall-us-senator.html

How does the Union decide what is built?  The factory workers build what is sent to them.  The livable wage seems to be a real issue with all of you anti-Union people.  Get over it.  The wages are not that high and sure as hell is not as much as those pansies sitting on Wall Street screwing each and every one of us.  But yeah, plan the guy earning $15.00/hr, living in fear that the plant will close and being told the product he makes is @!$%#. 

The consumers begging for Hummers and then running to Toyota has soon as the gas goes up is not to blame.  No blame there just keep living in your little world.

The union does not control the design and engineering of the products. The union controls the company through threat of strike and work slowdown if they don't get what they demand. So yes the union have a big role in the slow collapse of the US  auto industry. They always say gime gime gime more or else? You can't dismiss the union as having tnthing to do with the crisis.

your full of @!$%# nodom, and you know it.  The union has a long history of making the workplace a bette place for everyone by the standards that they won ove rthe years. And were able to get children out of the labor market and into schools, and raised the level of safety for everyone. union's did more good for the work we all do then anyone else.  And union workers do not make more then they should for the work that they do.........quit lettting someone else set the standard of a goodand fair living by making you hate those who reached a good living wage.

or are you a divider, in here to keep the average american worker divided in the face of what our government is NOT doing, and leaving citizens to fend for themselves. wake up. not everyone should make the standard you suggest by blaming union workers becasue they had a good job instead of a walmart job.

you want working slaves then go where you can benefit from slave workers.

No, the union is a scapegoat. The slow collapse of the auto industry is due to AMERICANS buying foreign cars and bad management.  But don't take any blame, you are innocent and persecuted by Unions and the government.

So KL, because I singled out the union as having a small role in the slow demise of the US auto industry, you think they have contributed to a better workplace? I do agree that they did but those were they days and now they are not needed since we have government agencies that now oversee and regulate safe working conditions for employees. The only thing that a union is good for nowadays is to threaten the companies that doesn't give to their demands. More more more. I have worked in a union shop before and I have seen what they can do. Employees deserving termination are kept on the job because of union intervention giving second chances to those breaking company rules. The union is good for when an employee is threatened with termination due to bad conduct, poor work ethics, drinking on the job, tardiness, habitual absenteeism just to name few. And you think it qualifies to be represented? Give me a break, I have seen it all during my association with a company that was unionized.

I am saying htat your comments are to "broad", and that your expereince is not the Whole picture.  Communicate your experience, fine, but it isn't healthy to throw this out and 'blanket" the entire mechanism.

nothing is perfect, or stays perfect, or works without being manipulated, or altered, or diluted......come on, the system that assisted in getting us to a fairer and safer environment overall has beneficial qualities.

We have a tendency to win value and then walk away and let it go in its own direction without "managing" its quality.  just take a look at congress.....started out with high ideals but it has been left UNCHECKED and now we are in jeopardy of watching our principals be lost and our liberty attacked little by little.

Actually, the union is part of the problem which might appear broad to you but in reality, the problem is much deeper than that. In my other post, I stated I have given up on domestics long ago because of the fuel inefficiency, unsafe, low quality manufacturing and unreliable to own. My domestic POS spent more time on the shop for repair than on the road. Switching to an import brand I found myself the satisfaction of owning and driving a car that does not involve costly repairs and inconvenience. I'm pointing here that there was a world of difference between a domestic and import brand. The domestics are now claiming they have captured top spots on quality surveys but they came too late for me to embrace that claim. I supported buy American cry but was conned and disappointed with their products. So yea I won't get behind a domestic brand again because of those horrible period and experience with GM and Ford brands. To post and share my experience here maybe I am helping someone who is shopping for a car to make a better decision and avoid products that will be costly and inconvenience to own and that happen to be the domestics.

you completely ignore the link between your words and the present situation, meaning that while Ford seems to be doing well in UK, here we being told that it is near putting millions in unemployment line.  How do you resolve the contradiction, and if you can't then what is afoot with this contradition, and how does the average citizen and worker understand why our domestic scene is dire in relation to such a recognizable "reason", such as yours.

do you know more then your own discomfort as consumer?

Simply put, mismanagement, poor product offering, unions and partnering with oil companies. The root cause of the present situation is broad, deeper and more than the above.

and what's your take in it? that I am so wrong?! huh? who are you?

and what's your take in it?

Achievement knowing the campaign waged against GM/Ford is finally paying off for me and others who were treated badly while owning the two brands. Countless days lost due to inconvenience caused by many trips to the mechanic due to car constantly needing costly repairs. Oh what a feeling.

inconvenience?!

Don't forget to add rental car cost to the inconvenience and that's for warranty repair, now if beyond warranty period, add repair costs. Inconvenience is priceless and not compensable. That's what you get when you drive a domestic POS brand from D3. What a feeling not to be bothered with constant trip to the mechanic driving an quality and reliable import. 

check it out..........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpyf-hS_WgY

Kucinich goes at kashkari, Neil of treasurey

if they let it fall..........may be important to check out the 80% discussion being held about the population.

IT's not difficult Kim...........think of what is the right thing to do. How many do they employ.  Do we need what they are making now?  What do we need to make to improve our climate?  are they only car makers, or are they diversified?  If you give billions to someone........so you want to know how they are using it?  If they have misused before do they need to be reporting every step of the way what they are doing?

there are more questions but those are more difficult to get answers for. these are questions that are fair and as taxpayer (citizens) we have a right to ask them! it is our future......it is our well being.......if they continue to do as they are doing right now, we are destined to attend some funerals, hear about suicides, watch people put in harms way by being exposed and vulnerable...it won't be pretty.

ask, and ask often, find others who know what you know and work together.

It's stupid to think 25 Billion is going to save the Big 3. It will only put off the pain for a few months. Then they will be back for more. Do they think everyone is going to suddenly start buying their cars? How stupid are these people?

what should be done, Greg.

Chapter 11. They can start from scratch, build a product that will sell, and renegotiate contracts.

Why havent they done that?  One article said that one of the big 3 had been retooling already, then bailout bill changed things?

Go to ford.co.uk and link to corporate.    They have news on Co2 emmision cars, gas miser cares, new 76.2 mpg cars, all offered overseas.    It will make your hair stand on end and make you wonder why they aren't being offered here in the U.S..   At least Ford seems to have already re-tooled along time ago.   When you get to the web page, click on corporate news and look at all the articles.

greg.........can you seed it?

I started reading about the regulations on the car companies here in the U.S..    It was so long, almost as long as the tax code, that I just couldn't get into it and made me really relize how bad regulations in the U.S. can be.     Then I tried reading the regulations for the car companies overseas.    I found it many pages shorter, but still couldn't get into it.    So I am hesitant to give facts as my mind started to wonder to much to try to make sense of it.    What I can see though is, unless the european and other countries, except communist countries, don't have a clean air policy, and these cars, say offered by Ford, are available there, why are we limited in this country, as to these type of cars they offer overseas.    I do work with the department of Environmental Protection Agency here in FLorida, and to meet their requirements on projects, just for Sewage Treatment and Potable Water can take a year or so, in order to meet their requirements.     If these cars offered overseas, are not clean enough to satisfy environmental concerns, why do the other nations allow them.    Aren't they the ones speaking the loudest on environmental concerns for the U.S..    But they do allow these cars, produced by U.S. Companies into their country.    Either these cars, getting mileage we don't see here, are bad, or the regulations here are just to cost prohibitive. I think corporate taxes should be reduced (yes I know these companies are the dreaded elite, but they do employee Americans) and I think de-regulation should occur.    High taxes, high pensions,  high salaries and high costs are driving these companies overseas, and if the other nations allow what we, the U.S. don't allow, why should they stay here.    Its cheaper for these companies to move.    They have the technology.    Its time they used it here.

to much pushing when what we need is a car, or other 'vehicle' that conforms with what our future environment is demanding. I know it sounds nieve but it is simple reasoning given what we face with global warming.  I like the idea that we rethink how we live.........we are very spoiled.  And we are paying for htat condition.

You need to go to the ford.co.uk web site and go to company vehicle news.    Ford had an investment of 70,000 English pounds on the plant there and a total employment increase to 2,000 employees.    This plant is to start producing the low CO2 focus which reduces CO2 output by 80,000 tonnes according to the site.    Its supposed to have direct injection and turbo and has already won awards in England for its environmental design.    Ever wonder why we never here about these cars.   The plant is being set up to produce 1,000,000 cars.    I wonder if they will ever make it here.    The first 5 passenger KA Model is being introduced in Paris and the claim is lowere CO2 output and over 67 mpg economy.    Wonder if we see this car here also.    The new Fiesta CO2 Low emission car is also to be built over there and they are rated at zero vehicle excise tax and zero showroom tax.    What a deal for the Europeans.  They seem to have the eco friendly cars, but don't seem to allow them here.    WOnder if it is regulations, or, maybe not.   Not sure, but a good question.

you have a good amount of info, would make a great article right about now.  Paulson is testifying right now and is not of a mind to give any money to auto makers?........that and your article would make for some very interesting additions in the discussion and might just piece it together.

I don't think anyone in government is interested in whats right anymore.    They all just seem to worry about their own job.    The government, even now, keeps saying they are moving forward, but what are they moving forward on?    Alot of these post's have good ideas, but our ideas, as well as our votes, don't stand up.    Maybe things will change soon and when government says for the people, they will mean it one day.   I don't know how to write and article correctly, because I have a tendancy to wonder when I write.

I think you do very well.  And found your comments to be out front more so then others.

but you do know that the money is gone..........and we don't know where that bailout money went.........and now a private company wants some, and they didn't sound like they have a plan. And what you said seemed to make a little sense for a minute in all of this confusion....could you hammer it out a bit more?  We are going down dude, see MAX Kieser from paris with his report?

just minutes later I got a piece of news htat said his wiki had been delieted?!  For what!  for reporting some truth, like no onelse is doing, we need the thinkers to start being heard.  We gotta start wacking out some ideas, and making sense of this before we are down for the count.

From the Toyota Web Site, Japan, North America and the European markets are down quite a bit.    Asia, because of the remodelled toyota corolla ,market sales have an increase, Avanza and inova models, whatever these cars are, have a market increase in indonesia, and Central and South American market sales are increasing.   It also states a start to the Venza model comming online, from the plant in Kentucky, which is supposedly a new 5 passenger car.    Fords web page doesn't get into as much detail as the japanese car companies, but does state decrease in North America, but doesn't show much about sales over seas.    You do know they produce cars for over seas sales, that aren't available here.   I would like to know why, but even their focus model, upgrade with turbo and other items, sell well over seas but aren't available here.    I'm assuming regulations here in the U.S.A. stop them from being sold here.   To bad on that fact.    maybe de-regulation would help.   It would seem they have these so called gas saving cars that are popular over seas, not gas guzzlers, and from what i've been able to find, do not require a retooling if they are already available over seas.

I just looked up ford in the U.K. web site.   It seems to contain some interesting facts from aug. 2008 sales there.    apparently, Ford was unvailing a 76.3 mpg Fiesta and a new Ford Focus which is not available here.    It also states that, Ford car sales in July, in the U.K. and surrounding countries were up 14,300 units.   It also states a Ford Kuga model, which is new, and total sales in the U.K. were up 1.2%.    I wonder why, if these gas miser cars are available over seas, why does Ford or the other U.S. car companies need money to re-tool.    There must be a plant somewhere in the world that already produces these cars with what they have now.

Greg, nice catch!

link it, seed it!

The Ford site I found was ford.co.uk.   Go to corporate news and then pick summer car sales stretch ford lead.    This was the latest 2008 news.   Other news items on that page are also intersting.    The others I just went to the normal toyota home site a clicked on corporate also.   They had more details along with honda and nissan web pages.

some of us understand the value that union work brought to us,and some of understand that there are those who have to turn thinking around so they can lower american standards to a more profitable level for the owners.  some of us know debmo. call senators and remind them that we know waht htey are doing!