Showdown looming in Congress over automaker rescue

Wow!! This is where being an independant really pays off.

Richard Shelby - Republican Alabama, Bush - Republican - Texas. Both former slave states, both right to work states.

Right to work states prevent a person from having to join a union in order to be employed.  GM jhas a LARGE share of outsourcing.  No unions in Mexico and since the bulk of the auto is outsourced no need to import illegal workers. There ARE unions in the South BTW.   That union thing really worked for GM, bleeding them dry and all with nothing to show for it but mediocrity.

Slaves?  This has no merit unless of course you are insinuating that people in the South STILL own slaves.  That was another time in American History.  The South ws not the only place that owned slaves, in some parts they were referred to as indentured servants.

There are foreign automakers in the South however the pay as you state is mroe in line with the mean income in whichever area they are built in.

As far as Shelby is concerned, I will reserve my judgement of his opinion until I can actually see his argument.  I can tell you this however,  Representative Shelby, along with Bachus are two of the people who made the most sense regarding this 'bailout' of corporate America in his opposition.   He proposed that it be done but in stages with oversight.... Wow!! Look what happened in its stead.  I will be watching C-Span.

He is right about GM. It IS a dinosaur. However I cannot support his complete denial for assistance.  What I can understand in his reasoning is the unions refusing to make any more concessions therefore signing their own death warrants.  Should the unions continue to refuse to make concessions to save their own jobs, I say "Let GM go belly up".  Let the government provide DIP money after the fact but only after retooling and bringing those outsourced jobs back into this country, whatever part of the country that happens to be.

None of the foreign manufacturer`s  cars built in the United? States are built in states without a right to work law I think.

At best, that is a mixed bag:

Honda - Alabama, California, Georgia, Indiana, Ohio, North Carolina, South Carolina
Toyota - Alabama, Kentucky, Indiana, Texas, West Virginia
Nissan - Tennessee, Mississippi
Mitsubishi - Illinois
BMW - South Carolina
Mercedes - Alabama
Hyundai - Alabama

Shelby is not completely denying assistance, he has previously stated that the money should only be provided if the auto industry renegotiate labor agreements and restructure a failed business model.  That discussion however isn't as sensational as saying the Republicans are unwilling to help the auto industry.

IMO, he is absolutely right in saying that giving them money without labor concessions restructuring the business model is only delaying the inevitable.  GM is not struggling simply as a result of the credit freeze,  they have not posted a profit since 2004.

Throwing money at the problem will not solve it, it certainly hasn't solved our problems with public education.

If the American auto makers are allowed to collapse where would the slack be picked up?

Who can keep them from collapsing? Washington? LOL their "bailouts" are quickly becoming a laughing stock as they are not going quite the way they were planned. But hey, when all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail so let's throw a few more billion into the crapper. Whaddya say?

"For the auto industry to completely collapse would be a disaster in this kind of environment," Obama said

Close. He can't really say this to the press of course, but he's likely thinking, "The collapse of the auto industry will be a disaster in this kind of environment." This is not 1979 when we stood at the brink of a huge bull market and economic expansion. The pendulum now swings in the opposite direction and the economy is contracting. The big U.S. automakers are weak (shares in Ford have lost 75% in a year and are approaching penny stock status) and going to go under because they are not competitive.

Congress is on a treadmill and losing ground. Expect more large hidebound and inefficient organizations to fail as the stock market and the economy slide further into the abyss, and the pols in Washington continue to enact feckless bailout legislation to "help" everbody but us. Eventually Americans will awaken to that. What we will do is anyone's guess.

Lerianis4

The government has certainly made its share of miscues, but the economic collapse we're in today is not their fault. Booms and busts are normal economic events; there was a bust in the 1840s, and one in the 1930s. If history is any guideline, we're due for one around now. There's nothing Washington could have done to prevent it.

Bush cutting taxes and then paying for an expensive war on the national credit card did have something to do with causing the economic disaster.  $5 trillion in national debt is a major cause of the credit crunch.  If the government is borrowing money, then there's less money for other people to borrow and the cost of borrowing becomes higher.

JoJo - Your reasoning is specious. The government is not borrowing money, it's borrowing dollars, which are a fiat currency. The Fed can create dollars out of thin air by monetizing the debt of just about any entity it feels like. This process cheapens the value of all existing dollars (including yours and mine). Isn't that scary?

The huge national debt did not cause the credit crunch; nervous lenders in the private sector did. They will be getting more nervous as time goes on.

As I said, government (including the Bush administration) has made its share of miscues. The credit contraction and economic bust we're entering however is a product of endogenous forces within the private sector though.

The only way the big 3 can survive, and be an equal in a competitive market is to file chapter 11, shed debit, shed the union, and restructure. The best vehicles GM has are built in Fremont, CA, a restructured plant, restructured by Toyota. The best car Ford builds is in Europe, Europe loves it, and they cant afford to build it here. The UAW has been bleeding the Detroit Automakers since the late 60's, and frankly, they deserve a lot of credit for surviving this long. The only way is to restart with a clean slate, which going BK will allow them to do. They can do this while still doing business.

You have to ask yourself, how much of the members money did the UAW spend to get all their Democrat graft-mongers elected. How much money do they spend paying politition controlling lobbyists, and politicians. What could they have done to help the membership with all that money? It is a massive amount of money, and they are still flush with dough.

The reality is, the UAW, Obama, Pelosi, Reed, Frank, and the rest, could care less about those members, they are only trying to secure their slice of that pie.

The only way the big 3 can survive, and be an equal in a competitive market is to file chapter 11, shed debit, shed the union, and restructure.

The big 3 will not survive. No measures of enconmic witchcraft can sustain a once thriving industry that can't keep its act together.

Undocumented immigrant labor? akin to slavery? 12 or more million or so of them? Adjusted for inflation over 140 years or so minimum wage might be cheaper to the employer than slavery? Subsidized with health care at the tax payers expense?

I know there are unions in the south, and the pictures we saw after Katrina gives a clear image of the mean income? People can`t afford to get out of the way of  storm?

The storm? We use taxpayers dollars to rebuild these target areas? Repeatedly? No personal responsibility? No states income taxes in some of the gulf coast states to bear their own burden? The continued push for more growth? To expand the power base?

Poor choices? Yet we continue to do it? It`s about the people? The autoworkers are people too?

Arguments on both sides, how do expect help if your not ready and willing to give help? I don`t care for bail outs, to me it indicates poor planning, almost like building a city below sea level and expecting no problems?

They were saying on Meet the Press today, that it will cost us MORE if we allow the auto makers to fail.  I for one agree with you and ask those who disagree, how can they condone the estimated 3 million jobs that would be lost if we allow them to go under? How can we catch up will finding jobs for the hundreds of thousands already out there looking, when we add another potential 3 million on top? How can we pay the unemployment insurance? How can we expect to slow down foreclosures with 3 million more out of a job? And how in the world can those of you that continue to argue the imagined righteousness of the current administration, do so for  a second longer? To justify a bailout to the banks but not help the citizens who work for our auto industry is more than creepy, it's sickening.

Ouch.  I was originally against the US automaker bailout, since I really believe that they need to file for Chapter 11 and undergo a major corporate restructuring, and I thought that the bailout would simply postpone this inevitability.  However, seeing that so many prominent Republicans are also against the bailout, I'm starting to rethink my position.  Or maybe this is their new tactic, post-election: they understand that their position on most issues is reviled, so they use reverse psychology and hope that most people reject anything that they support.

I am against handing GM 25 billion dollars no questions asked when their daily cash burn will only postpone the inevitable without major overhauls.  Should the unions and the executive come up with a viable plan for growing the company... no bailout for them!

Let them show the government a plan to reduce costs, cut overhead, produce a more fuel efficient product and bring those jobs we are rescuing in Mexico back across the border.

I agree with the following from the Rain Forest Action Network,

...what should Detroit get?

Our answer – nothing, not without conditions that reduce our dependence on oil. Our money should be offered on our terms. No automaker deserves federal funds or loan guarantees unless it commits to producing and selling at least 30,000 plug-in electric vehicles by the end of 2011 – and after those three years have passed and they’ve met the terms of the bailout, then let’s talk about more support for more plug-ins. Taxpayers’ dollars should be used to stabilize the industry and the jobs that depend on it by producing vehicles that end the downward spiral of our dependence on oil. Electric vehicles recharged by a green grid means , a more competitive domestic auto industry, not to mention saying no to tar sands development and good bye to wars for oil.

I also think that the UAW should think about restructuring to an employee owned company.  Everyone in the company needs to work together for their future.  I'm sure that if the employees had been given a vote, GM would not have killed its electric car!

For more, Google Who Killed the Electric Car

Sad the UAW has made major concessions every 4 years or so. New Ford workers make 14.20 per hour. This problem has nothing to do with UAW workers and has everything to do with GM not making the cars people want. Cadillac is a perfect example it took this division making 300k cars per year before GM realized that making boats with sloppy suspensions and meek engines wasn't going to cut it anymore. They revamped the line but it's still a little too late now it's a up hill battle to gain market share in the luxury car market when before they were the leaders.

They killed the EV1 and replaced it with THE HUMMER. The exact opposite of the EV1's mantra. Now Hummer is losing money... go figure. They also have Pontiac, GMC, and Buick....why? Those models can be covered in Chevrolet, and Cadilac. Ford isn't that bad anymore, but they are still hanging onto Mercury... that division needs to go. It  serves no purpose.

Sad,

No need, I own a copy:) And, I think you may be onto something there. I've been watching this and, I think it might actually be an opportunity for us to take care of the largest problem that we face in becoming energy independent. I mean, we can switch all of the houses in all of America over to all of the green energy we want but the majority of our oil goes to one place and one place only: our cars.

Frankly, public transportation only works so well for America. Sure, it's fine for a place like New York, but most of our cities sprawl pretty far and most folks have to commute at least some distance to work every day- and that's not even including the various errands that have to be done just to keep a household going- I mean, have you ever tired to go grocery shopping when the nearest grocery store is 5 miles away? It's a nightmare that most people just aren't capable of handling on top of everything else that they have to do in a given week.

Electric and plug-in hybrids however- workable ones at any rate, solve this problem but, how do you shift the manufacturers to making them? Who Killed the Electric Car pointed that out pretty well I think.

As the filmmakers pointed out the manufacturers just don't have the set up to mass make those kinds of products and, won't do it anyway until and unless they stop making money and get into a position where and when the government backed by We the People can step in and force them to change....

Which brings us to where we are now....

Question to me, is whether or not anyone up in Washington's got the cajones to actually take advantage of this situation and see that the change goes through or if we're just going to get stuck with the same old bait-n-switch that the bank bailout gave us.

SadButTrue, Kc77 & RNoel - Good points all!  I share your concerns about a bailout to an industry that has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to even get the most minimal change.  

I am not comfortable with many of the views of politicians like Sen. Shelby who seem to think that the solution is all a matter of union consessions.  Where are the industry consessions?  It seems to me that their objectives for any 'bailout' for the auto industry are much more focused on union busting than with any real reform (actually, I think that is the real goal in all of this).  If any 'bailout' is going to happen it is imperative that the industry be forced to improve their energy efficiency - if not, they die.

I rather like the idea of employee-ownership - this might even save both the jobs and the industry by new innovation and participation in product decisions.

Great points and questions re the auto industry, but none address my basic point.  Why is it totally ok to give mass quantities of money to totally NONPRODUCTIVE people, and refuse to LOAN money to a productive industry?????????

SoL it's not OK. This is about union busting and nothing else.

SH2000, you need to switch channels! Filing chapter 11 looses no jobs, they continue to work while the company restructures. This also allows for debit the company now has to be shed, lowering their operating costs, and making them competitive again. If they don't file 11, and we do bail them out, we will not be helping the workers, since the inevitable will still happen, just later than sooner. The only winners on a bail out ill be the UAW who has actually been running the company for the last 30 years, and the politicians, who allowed this to happen. I agree though, we shouldn't have bailed out AIG either.

RNoel, Your first thought was correct. Remember the election is over. Your candidate said "end the division" "we need bi-partisanship to win"(too bad they didn't practice that during Bushes administration, we could have avoided this). The fact is, he is right, if he really does it. We need input from all, to keep on a non destructive path.

SONOFLIBERTY, you are right, if you check, the big 3 have not been productive.

Kc77, It is not about Union Busting, but it has been about company busting, since the 70's. Instead of working with the company to achieve a common goal (building a lot of product efficiently, with the best quality in the industry), the UAW chose to flip the company off, and make it so hard and expensive to do business, that they are where they are.

Interesting point to objectively look at, Isn't that what the Dem's did to Bush? Ironic isnt it!

Sorry Tired, history directly refutes your comment. The UAW has made concessions every 4 years with deeper job cuts and deeper price controls on employee pay. New Ford workers make $14.20 per hour.

Dormitories? What makes you think the majority of Americans will be able to afford such luxuries? If we keep down this slippery slope what will result are open air markets and people pan handling for food, only those who are at the top being able to afford comfortable living from their overseas profits.  Dormitories, try tent cities.

No minimum wage, no health care, no electricity or running water, no homes.

Well the Republican push to bailout Wall Street then wanting no money for auto makers tells a very tall tale.

They Republicans and Bush know that Obama is going to bring back protectionism on jobs so they are trying to use this latest crisis as a chance to break the union before the economy can strengthen itself again when companies are forced to bring some amount of manufacturing back to this country.

Why else all the talk over the last few days about union workers making concessions and not much of any real talk about the CEO and board of directors having to live with less?

This is nothing but a last ditch attempt to hoodwink the working men and women with scare tactics about them losing their jobs. They are willing to bankrupt these dinosaurs instead of helping them to retool while they are in a slowdown all to break the unions and screw the working man some more. It's as plain as the nose on our faces.

Once they've done this and more and more middle class people become former middle class people, then they'll get their riots, they'll get their martial law. They'll be able to blame it on the Democrat in office and we'll get fooled into thinking that they have all the answers once again. That is if we are dumb enough to fall for it again.

They did this to Gen X in the early 90's when they said, while many were still in high school that we'd be the first generation to not do as well as our parents, much less better. Then they came out with all of this rhetoric about how all of that was the fault of Democrats in Congress so we should give them the power because they were the only ones with the answer to fix the country. Never mind the fact that they were the ones largely in the White House, save four years of Carter for the past 25 years.

What to do, what to do? Well the answer is simple. We've retracted back now on average as far as wages are concerned to the early 70's, right before we got into our (thankfully) now dying debt ridden culture. We're back to where we began, back to the days before Reagan's smoke and mirrors of better times, I say smoke and mirror because it wasn't real, it was a fantasy based on debt, a big pyramid that we've reached the top of. Hell we're back before Jimmy Carter and are actually kind of like where we were in the last days of Nixon and Gerry Ford's time in office.

The problems we faced then are much the same as they are now and we're at a cross roads. Do we get back to sound, solvent business practices or do we get fooled into thinking that the people with the real power, the modern day plutocrats, buildaburgers or whatever you want to call them, actually have our best intrests at heart?

I pray that we've come far enough along since then that we've learned that these are nothing more than tricks to scare the middle class into giving up more of their share.

People should be working for companies that know how to be successful. People should live in housing they can afford. And everyone else shouldn't have to pay for the bad decisions made.

I am in perfect agreement with you, sire. Your loyal subjects who select employers carefully and live within their means should not pay for the failure of others to do the same.

There were more Democrats that voted for the bailout of Wall street than Republicans.

That's so true about the unions.  Since the 1930's (and before), unions have been the devil incarnate to the Republican moneyed base.  Anything that increases the cost of a commodity (labor) has been viewed as a correctable evil.

Right to work laws (the idea that workers can gain union benefits without joining) were one method of weakening the union movement.  Others followed, and, finally, under Bush, the Republicans finally reached their pinnacle - - an NLRB dedicated to union busting.

Worst of all, the Republican use of the "big lie" has persuaded many in the working class that, somehow, unions were the cause of their problems - - that without unions, "benevolent" management would do better for them than ever.

The fact is that outsourcing is a direct reaction to the fact that American wages, thanks to unions, represent a living wage.  Corporations that have been the biggest union busters, like Walmart, have explicit policies of not paying a living wage and letting the rest of us subsidize their employees, the workign poor, through food stamps and other welfare programs.

Every program initiated by the Bush administration, including Katrina relief and homeland security has explicitly prohibited unionization, thereby placing its employees at the mercy of their employers in terms of their wages and working conditions.

It continues to be frustrating to read the continuing stream of posts on NV blaming the victims and suggesting that if they don't like it, they get a better job.  If the Republicans (and Libertarians) had their way, unions would vanish and each orker would be free to negotiate his or her own terms of employment in the resulting "equal playing field" (LOL) of the free market.  I'm sure that the wealthy will be happy to trickle down the additional prosperity that they would gain from this turn of events.

This scenario is a fundamental reason why income generated from capital ought to be taxed at a substantially higher rate than income generated by sweat.

alec,

The problem is that, 'a living wage' is very subjective.  Who is to say what is a living wage?  I'm sure your definition would be different than mine, and mine would be different than the guy next door and so on, and so on.

'This scenario is a fundamental reason why income generated from capital ought to be taxed at a substantially higher rate than income generated by sweat.'

This would penalize those who save and invest their money while perpetuating the myth of the debtor society, that you can spend your way to being wealthy.

"This would penalize those who save and invest their money while perpetuating the myth of the debtor society, that you can spend your way to being wealthy."

Of course, I support progressive taxation.  I would not tax the capital investments of the middle class at all.  My ultimate target would be the large, inherited wealth that has created an aristocracy in a nation intended to be egalitarian.

Similarly, I would seek to preserve the middle class that is the backbone of our nation.  I would try and prevent pro-business, anti-union policies from acceleerating the slide of the middle class toward poverty while aggragating the great mass of our wealth in the hands of a very few.  We've tried that, always with the same result.  Even in these economic times, the very wealthy may "suffer", but, at the end of the day, they will still be able to retire to their mansions and country clubs.  It's the working man who gets it in the neck, losing his job, and, all to often, his home and other assets.  And, not surprisingly, it's the working man who had the least ability to do anything about this mess.

Exactly Sandra.

Stop assisting mediocrity! This company is asking that Americans who don't even know from one day to the next if their jobs are secure to foot the bill for failure.

One other thing.  If they are bailed out, since the majority of the vehicle is not even manufactured on American soil. A requirement to bring those jobs back to this country should also be a requirement. The American economy should get a shot in the arm from bailing them out.

5.  Flexible Assembly Plants like Toyota and Honda! in some cases Chrysler.

Some of Toyota factories take couple of weeks to retool a factory.   IN the mean time, employees are send back to the classroom for education upgrade.  Also, send to fitness center for health education and exercise.

"Also, send to fitness center for health education and exercise."

Yes, and while they take their 10-minute "mandatory" Union break from their health education and exercise course, they can go out and smoke a cigarette!

amen amen amen!!

Great suggestions, why don't these apply to the financial sector?  Sandra, Brammy, Aalaf, Mick, why are you prejudiced against productive companies?

I'm not, I'm all for strong arming the financial companies on the terms of their bailout too. I say just tell them this is the way it's going to be, like it or lump it. Don't like it, don't take part, play ball or don't. You can't go into a job or a bank and expect them not to dictate to you what the terms are going to be.

LOL!  You are operating on the assumption that the companies will grow the business instead of just postponing the inevitable.

In today's economy what is the best option for growing the business? Cutting overheard and such? OUTSOURCING to where there are no unions and no minimum wage.  NOT good for the economy.

It either the same old thing or Change?

As big 3 are closing plants,  the foreign car manufacturers are opening plants.

Toyota, BMW, Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes are building auto manufacturing plants as we speak here.   They are reinvesting in some of the parterner companies like auto parts.

I would not be surprise the Chinese and Indians will be building plants here soon too.

Yep got a Kia plant right down the street (KIA for Gods sake) but do you understand the implication?  That means that the American economy has fallen so far the this is becoming the country of choice to outsource TO!

Agreed.  Money for the bank bailout if being used for just such reasons, creating mega banks. Watch out for Citi.  Should it fall, it will be a crash heard round the world.  Look at it latest numbers and projections.

Under bankruptcy the auto makers will not need to bargain with Unions. The bargaining will take place in the federal bankruptcy court, where is the Unions can only request a small percentage on the the dollar of their collective contracts. Most contracts are nilled and void when a company file for bankruptcy protection. 

Welcome to the new third world

What do "most" Americans do on Sunday?  Watch football, drink beer and eat chips.  It's tradition ;)  The going to church, chores and cleaning house are Priority #2. 

Aalaf, you do have a valid point, as much as it "stings" to hear it.  However, the question still remains in how to get Americans "engaged" in life again.  BTW, I think American football has become more and more known not only in American any longer.  So, let's be careful when we stereotype, shall we?

Ok, how is it that you're all ok with our government buying into banks, but not ok with loaning money to carmakers? 

SonOfLiberty, I was 100% AGAINST the government buying out of banks.  As a matter of fact, I contacted my Congressman and said NO to the Bailout, not once, but twice.  So, I don't understand your "assumption" here. 

So, to recap, I was 100% against the Bailout, which subsequently the money has been totally mishandled by the banks.  The original design of the Bailout was to help homeowners, instead the banks took the money and bought smaller banks that were in trouble.  So, lesson learned!

That's why (since lesson learned) our government IS going to bailout the car manufacturers -- that is a given -- then there should be STRICT guidelines and qualifications for the auto manufacturers to be deemed eligible for the bailout.  And, yes, this means some really * hard * business decisions. 

And, one more step further.  Since when have American car manufacturers been productive???    It's been a LONG while.  You must have buddies, family, living in Detroit feeding you a line of bull.  Here's America's message to them.  Get off your high horse when "all" you have a high school diploma, and your job is to attach a rear-view mirror, and you're earning $50 bucks an hour!  Take $25 an hour (most college graduates don't earn this much), and be happy for it, and keep your mouth shut, or your job will be eliminated or transferred overseas.  America is tired of bailing the non-productive car industry out, and the corrupt Unions who don't have your best interest at heart; they're just lining their pockets.  Did you know that some of these Union Executives earn as much or MORE than CEO's?  It's time for the American auto worker to take back their dignity and respect.  America is tired of bailing out auto worker welfare, and this has been going on for some time.  IF, any other company were in trouble that didn't have 2.5 million jobs on the line, our government would have already said no.  The ONLY reason why this is being considered is because of the magnitude.

I just sold a 1988 Honda I bought used in 1992. Great car, and I'm driving a newer Accord now. I buy only used cars so the money stays in the USA.

Unfortunately I am forced to agree with you.

Although I see the Dems as Socialists who will destroy the American workers by governmentalizing them, I see the Republicans have no loyalty to the American workers.  Either way this country is ruled by power hungry fools.  Both parties are a danger to the American way.

GOZO,

'If auto loans were available we would not be having this discussion'

This is not true,  GM has not posted a profit since 2004, long before the credit freeze.  They simply do not have a viable business model.

GOZO's point is valid.  We've been in a credit problem since 1995.  Just because you waited til some "expert" told you we had a credit problem doesn't mean that it just happened this year.  As he points out, LOTS of people were buying gas guzzlers until this year. 

Should we blame the automakers for making popular vehicles?.  I don't understand why you people have one standard for lazy nonproductive bankers, and a totally different more stringent one for an industry that actually manufactures something.  Are you people so divorced from reality that you think our country can prosper with no manufacturing?????

SOL,

Maybe you personally have had a credit problem since 1995, but the country has not.  Until last year anyone who could 'fog a mirror' could get almost any loan they wanted with little or no effort.

NO one on  this board has just said no, what EVERYONE on this board seems to agree on is that changes need to be made in their business model.  I have no problem with them receiving a 'loan' if they come up with a plan to once again become competitive.

Warren Buffet has bought into GE and other companies since this down turn.  Don't you think that if the big 3's had aviable business model with a promising future that Buffet and other wealthy investors would be all over buying into these companies?  They simply can not be competitive with their current health care and pension legacy costs added to each vehicle.

I just want to see them restructure from the top down to become competitive again as a condition for receiving a loan.  Is that really to much to ask?

Lerianis4 - $40.00 per hour - here's a reality check for you.  These wages ($25K-$55k) don't sound like they are all that out of line to me, but maybe others think that 'China-wages' of 30-50 cents an hour is appropriate?

COMPARING WAGES

* $12.66: Median hourly wage for production workers in Chattanooga in May 2007, or a yearly pay of $28,180.

* $13.53: Median hourly wage for production workers in the United States in May 2007, or a yearly pay of $31,310

* $14: Starting hourly wage for many new GM, Ford and Chrysler workers hired under 2007 UAW contract agreement

* $17: Starting hourly wage by Honda in Indiana

* $24.92: Top hourly wage for production workers at the Nissan plants in Smyrna and Decherd, Tenn.

* $26: Top hourly wage for UAW workers

Sources: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Wall Street Journal

Don't confuse people with facts.  Our educational system has decreed that working with your hands is for subhuman foreigners.  The only honest way to earn a good living is by sitting at a desk.

Lerianis's prejudice doesn't let her/him see how anybody without a degree deserves to make a comfortable living.  She/he is a product of our higher educational system.

SOL - Thanks for the reminder - I keep forgetting that facts are irrelevant to many.

I try not to broad-brush things or people, but I think we all fall into the trap from time to time.  I am pretty pragmatic - knowing that people from all demographic groups and in all kinds of occupations take advantage of the system, sometimes. But I also know that the majority of people in all those groups also go above and beyond any legal obligation they may have in both their personal and professional lives every day.

Those not in Unions are told that the Union worker is getting outrageous salaries and is just a lazy, slob who only keeps his/her job because of the Union, and they believe it. Union workers are told it is those 'paper pushers' that are making all the big bucks and are just a bunch of 'elites'.  Many hourly workers don't know that salaried workers work well over 40 hours a week and get no overtime, for instance.  The salaried people are looking at the others and being told they are just a bunch of uneducated people too lazy to 'better themselves'.  None of these attitudes are accurate or right.

The point is that all these groups have to come to the realization that they are being used.  That each group is being pitted against the other as a way to 'divide and conquer'.  This keeps those with immense wealth in power.  IMHO we have to come to a consensus that we have to work together against those - people and policies - who are the real 'enemy'of the vast majority.  IMHO our society has to change from a 'ME' to a 'WE' society.  That would require some serious attitude changes and a willingness by everyone to make substantial sacrifices - not something that we have been very good at.

Rebuilding bridges, highways, schools, and other public facilities, would be 25 billion spent, without being able to translate in future profits.  Once that money is spent, it is gone.  Those bridges will need to be rebuit, the schools are only as good as its teachers, (by the way teachers unions are just as bad as auto unions)(and so are the road worker unions).  Besides the argument is weak as all these will just need another 25 billion to rebuild later.

Investing in something that can become a profitable tax base for the United States is quite a bit better.

I agree with you that Unions were great for the American worker, and anyone working in America who is not a PHD, or CEO, should thank Unions for thier benefits.  But that being said, the Unions became to powerful, and the people who ran the companies were to spineless to stop them.

I do not have a problem with Union workers making good wages, and good benefits for a hard days work.  My problem has always been with the positions where they have many non productive employees, because they made changing lightbulbs a high paying union job, or they make one union worker wait 15 minutes for another union worker to come over and mop up something the one worker just spilled.

Fact is hiring 800 people to do a job that technology and smart business practices only require 500 to do, and then paying those extra 300 people a great wage with great benefits is just economic suicide.

But I also do not want to hear any politican, or congressman who really do not work all that much, they make 3 times the money, and all they need to do to get a raise is vote one in for themselves, they talk out of both sides of thier mouth, and their health and other benefits are far superior to any Union Autoworker, basically I do not want to hear those hippocrates opinion on who is making to much money.

I completely agree that our leadership is in need of a new strategy.  Fact finding will always be a better option, than following ideology blindly.  There is a lot of economists out there saying that NOT bailing out these companies will cost the taxpayer 4 times as much money.  This plan needs to be called the "last chance" plan, we need to get these companies through the credit crisis, have them repay the taxpayer, then cut them loose.

Shelby knows what is working for his state....which is why we elected him.  He knows that these non-union foreign auto makers and suppliers are paying a fair wage and providing insurance to the residents of Alabama. 

You want to know why the foreign plants are locating where they are?  In comparision to MI most of these places have lower taxes, are right to work, and have an affordable workforce available.  Who the heck would locate their business, if given the choice, in a place with higher taxes, union headaches, and a jacked up wage to compete for employees.  Seems to me the foreigners have something very basic that the Big 3 and unions lack......common sense.

I like the idea of firing all upper level managment and installing Lee Iacoca as "Car Czar" it worked when they bailed out Chrysler. Remember? Everybody had the Iacoca book. That and his book Talking Straight are still really good reads with sound business/economic advice by in large. That's a cat that knows how to turn around dying company.

nodomestic, your idea only works at the top level.  Low and middle level government workers make far more that private sector workers.  We've got WAY too many college indoctrinated people in our country, we're screwed.

I couldn't agree more. Not to downplay the college education, but it has been devalued heavily. When they are asking for an Associates to sit at a desk, answer phones and push papers through MSWord we've gotten ridiculous about it.

My mother started out at NASA in 1966 with no college degree at the age of 19 and worked until the last day of 2005. She got a bachelors degree in the early 80's and that opened many doors for her at work and she rose to a high level in the organization so I'm not saying that the college thing isn't a good idea, it's just a shame that people can't get in on these ground floor jobs anymore due to colleges being watered down over the last 15 or so years.

But don't worry, if we can get some good protectionism going on then Americans will be competing with Americans again for jobs in America again, instead of trying to compete with the Red Chinese worker that the Republicans are so fond of. Then college degree or not, competetion based more on talent and innovation of the worker instead of whether or not somebody was able to snooze through college for a couple of years.

I agree a car note is now about 400 a month, throw in insurance, maintenance, and depreciation it is a loss of 800 dollars a month, or 10,000.00 a year. If the fed guide line for an average household is 48,000 a year this is over a 20 percent cost to the average consumer. Note gas prices are not included in this equation.

 either the average consumer wages increase, or prices drop, the only other solution to this is what is happening now, decreased production and bankruptcy to the auto makers who cant  tread water.

Should they be bailed out? I don't know, we already bailed out the banks, and it hasn't helped one DOW percentage point,

The Bretton Wood Conference of 1945, was designed to promote global market economies, and deter  third world countries from communism. From the post WW2 economy, we had a 28 year run of prosperity, and the end of communism.

It is now 2008, and we still run an economy to appease third world and second world European countries. Japan has been rebuilt out of guilt, England and most of Europe has been rebuilt. Our investments paid off in the short term (28 years) but for the last  25 years it turned from a free-market economy to a paper note economy. Globally we rely on others for resources and industry, yet we all desire high wages and benefits.

 The time of job security, benefits and retirement ended, we have been trying to hold on to an economy that elapsed 25 years ago.

As the leader in the free world, we forgot that Americans are the best resource we have, and companies leaned towards impressing the globe with their profitability, at the cost of the American consumer and labor.

It is time for America to get back to its own resources, citizens first, and domestic resources. This is the only way that as a country we can supply at a reasonable price to the consumer

USA1!! Beautifully said.

If they do bail them out... they should stipulate the automakers market affordable energy efficient cars as part of our energy independence and/or every American get a free vehicle as part of the deal over the next 2-3 years!! Stimulates the production lines to build them, keeps jobs, and they get their bail out money but we the average American get something in return!!

Oh yes that and anything else they want to stipulate. This is our money so "we" should set the terms.