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When shots echoed across Georgia's Albany State University last month, students started running and police cars rushed onto the campus with sirens wailing. Several students lay wounded on the ground, and a gunman was using a hostage for cover.
Still under fire, campus police rescued wounded fellow officers as Albany and county police moved in to help. The gunman tried to escape and, after several minutes of chaos, members of the Albany police SWAT team found him dead and pulled the wounded students to safety.
Authorities said every law enforcement and emergency organization in Dougherty County responded, along with two hospitals and the county health department.
It was all a test.
Security ramped up on campuses
It has come to this: In the aftermath of highly publicized deadly shootings on college campuses, students have another ritual to add to the fire drills, safety lectures and harassment workshops that have characterized student life for decades. Now they have shooting drills.
Roberson Brown Jr., chief of the university police, said the number of shootings and emergencies on campuses made it necessary for law enforcement to hold such drills.
“Hopefully, it doesn’t occur, but we want the bad guys to know if they come, we are ready for them, whatever may occur,” said Brown, who gave his officers a "C" on the drill.
Nine months after five students were shot to death in a siege at Northern Illinois University and a year and a half after 32 others were killed by a deranged gunman at Virginia Tech University, college officials are ramping up police forces, installing brighter lights, building observation towers and attending security summits.
But students and faculty at schools large and small say the new attention to security isn’t easing their anxiety, and some are trying to take matters into their own hands. On dozens of campuses, student-led campaigns are under way to approve the carrying of concealed weapons.
Crime low, but homicides rising
Lori Berquam, dean of students at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, acknowledged that for all the efforts to bolster security, “there is more fear, a heightened level of awareness.”
Federal crime statistics offer little justification for that fear. Violent crime, in fact, remains so low on college campuses that they are among the safest places in the nation.
A Justice Department study found 62 violent crimes per 100,000 college students in 2004, compared with 462 per 100,000 Americans overall. That was the last year of a decade-long survey of campus crime by the Justice Department, but data reported under the federal Crime Awareness and Campus Security Act of 1990, also known as the Jeanne Clery Act, indicate that violent crime on campuses has not increased appreciably since then.
But saturation news coverage of the mass shootings at Northern Illinois and Virginia Tech have put a spotlight on homicides on campuses, which jumped in 2006 and 2007.
From 2000 to 2005, colleges and universities reported an average of four student homicides a year on campus to the FBI. In 2006, that number doubled to eight. Last year, it rose another 50 percent to 12, not counting the 32 killed at Virginia Tech.
That trend has continued so far this year: At least 13 college students have been slain on their campuses or after having been accosted on campus.
Such crimes are what instill a sense of fear among students.
“I actually live on campus and look out my window and see two places where assaults with a deadly weapon have happened,” said Mark D’Apolito, a student at the University of Toledo in Ohio.
At the University of Memphis in Tennessee, Zebonique Petties, a senior, said it made no difference that authorities put up watch towers, surveillance cameras and police call boxes on campus after Taylor Bradford, a well-known football player, died after being shot in his car late last year.
The measures have done nothing to calm her fears, Petties said, adding: “The security to me is lame, basically.”
The push for guns on campus
In April, on the anniversary of the Virginia Tech massacre, more than 500 university presidents, counselors, law enforcement officials and student leaders gathered at the University of Central Oklahoma in Edmond. They were there to learn how to keep students safe.
“Will my son, will my daughter, be safe at your school?” asked Roger Webb, president of the University of Central Oklahoma and former director of the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety. “This is why we can’t allow complacency to set in.”
To hear some students tell it, complacency has already set in. They don’t trust college leaders and want the right to protect themselves.
“Firearms, put in the right hands, can be used for the good of society,” said Blake Graham, a junior criminal justice major at Ball State University. He and other students on the campus in Muncie, Ind., formed a chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, a national organization that lobbies state legislatures to allow students with legal permits to carry concealed weapons onto campus.
At least 11 colleges and universities already allow students to carry concealed weapons, a practice that is banned by law in 30 states. But since being founded after the Virginia Tech slayings, Students for Concealed Carry has put the issue squarely in the spotlight, starting chapters at about 500 colleges and universities, it says. This week, the organization is organizing a nationwide lobbying effort targeting state legislatures and news organizations.
Paul Chandler, an associate professor of natural resources who is advising the Ball State chapter, said armed students could end a critical situation long before police could arrive at the scene.
“Whenever a university or school advertises itself as a gun-free zone, they’re basically saying, ‘Spree killers welcome,’ because they know everybody’s unarmed,” Chandler said. “Some people say, ‘Wouldn’t there be a shootout in the classroom?’ Well, a shootout in the classroom would probably be better than a massacre in the classroom.”
Concealed carry gathers steam
A similar campaign is under way at Liberty University, a private religious college in Lynchburg, Va., founded by the Rev. Jerry Falwell. Jerry Falwell Jr., son of the late evangelist and chancellor of the university, refused to reject the idea outright, referring the proposal to the board of trustees, which will consider it in March.
“I want to make sure that we look at it long and hard before we make a decision,” Falwell said.
At the University of Nebraska-Omaha, Michelle Levine, a senior, endorsed the idea, saying, “If you need your own gun for your own personal safety when you’re sleeping or when you’re off-guard, that’s fine.”
In April, students at Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi and on other colleges wore empty holsters to protest the campuses’ status as gun-free zones.
“We’re basically saying that we want the right of all people that are over the age of 21 that already have a concealed handgun license to be allowed to carry in class so that tragedies like Virginia Tech might be averted in the future,” said Cody Smiley, a student who helped organize the action.
The idea has reached the legislatures of at least 13 states, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. In the Louisiana House, for example, a measure to allow holders of concealed-carry permits to take their weapons onto college campuses died in June — but only after it won approval from the Judiciary Committee.
The drive frightens some educators and law enforcement authorities.
“It’s going to be very difficult in responding to an incident with an active shooter and try to decipher who are the good guys and who are the bad guys,” said Alan Gutierrez, chief of the campus police at Texas A&M-Corpus Christi. “It’s already very challenging for law enforcement to respond to a situation like that.”
Arthur Romano, a nonviolence educator who founded the international organization Youth for Peace, said the focus should be on preventing violence because guns aren’t a deterrent.
Pointing to the statistics showing that college campuses were safer than society at large, Romano said, “The chances of experiencing violence is 93 percent more likely off campus than on.”
More on concealed weapons | gun laws
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{"commentId":4092966,"authorDomain":"jfmeyers"}
We can never stop violence completely but glad to see more is being done to help keep students safer.
{"commentId":4092966,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"jfmeyers"}
- 2 votes
#1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:46 AM EST{"commentId":4098512,"authorDomain":"Toradze"}
Security on college campuses is a joke. I recently went to a major campus police department after witnessing an attempt to kidnap a woman who worked on campus. I had car and license number. I and she made reports. The woman was grateful to us for stopping and scaring the guy off.
The police chief refused to put out a warning because no kidnapping took place. Now - this is a FEMALE police chief for the campus, and both of the officers I spoke to were women. And they refused to warn the campus.
It's a joke. I totally understand why some would want to do CCW on campus.
What we need is studies that show whether it is an effective deterrent and an effective response system. One thing is for sure - it's cheap. Everything else costs a ton of money, and colleges don't have money to burn these days.
{"commentId":4098512,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"Toradze"}
{"commentId":4099411,"authorDomain":"donaldstoetzel"}
who is to tell anyone that they are required to have a special permit to exercise a constitutional right? just getting a permit puts your name on a list of targets for corrupt politicians. freedom of speech don't need a permit. do you need a permit to be catholic?and the right to the equal protection of the law? does this require a stamp on your forehead? the permit holders are the first who will be required to turn in their guns, there will be a list of names and addresses to target.
{"commentId":4099411,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"donaldstoetzel"}
{"commentId":4099598,"authorDomain":"goldfish4ob"}
{"commentId":4100903,"authorDomain":"widewillie"}
Hyperbole and over-reaction will not help reduce violent crime on college campuses or anywhere else for that matter.
While I commend you, Mr. Toradze, for your selflessness and your willingness to get involved in a potentially life-threatening situation to aid a person in distress, this anecdotalexample is by no means proof that security at the thousands of colleges and universities around the country is a joke. College campuses are, in fact more "secure" than most private homes, social gathering places and workplaces across the country!!
And, if the DOJ numbers provided in the article don't substantiate that fact to your satisfaction, I reccommend the following sites:
&
You'll need to add "http://" in front of these url's, in order for them to work (been here 6+ months...yet I still can't post links???)
And, with due respect Mr. Stortzel, your position seems steeped in paraology and entirely sophistical! The US Constitution does not now...nor, to the best of my knowledge, has it ever, provided a constitutional right to carry a concealed weapon!!! Additionally, Freedom of speech isn't actually free...and YES occasionally, it does, when that speech comes in the form of a public gathering, require a permit!! And, if Catholics (like Mormon's, Rastafarian's, Astrozorians, Satanists, and others before them) have any religious tenants or beliefs that don't align with local, state or federal laws...they will most assuredly not be "free" to practice their religion as ACTUALLY guaranteed by the Constitution!
Lastly, Mr. Stortzel are you aware that all states that allow CCW's already require owners to register their weapons?? President-Elect Obama's has said he would like to raise taxes on weapons and ammo, but I would DIRECTLY challenge you to substantiate your ridicules assertion that he will "target" people on the lists and force people to "turn in their guns"!! Please provide some, non-fear-based evidence for that statement
I was a member of the NRA for many years...I always have and always will support the rights of Americans to own weapons. But, overstating the case for wide spread expansion of CCW's only serves to advance fear. And, that fear, in turn, makes finding tenable, practical solutions for reducing violence that much more difficult to institute!
{"commentId":4100903,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"widewillie"}
{"commentId":4162584,"authorDomain":"kristenlegrow"}
i come from canada and therefore have a very hard time understanding the american love for guns. nobody i know has a gun or knows someone who has a gun and most people living in urban areas have never even seen one. it is not suprising then that then that firearm related hommicides are 8 times higher (per capita) in the united states than in canada.
allowing young adults, or anyone, to carry concealed weapons does not increase their safety, it decreases it. creating a campus with armed and hormonally charged young men and women is a recipe for disaster. please, use your common sense here. take away the guns and there will be drastically fewer murders or arm everyone and watch them murder one another.
{"commentId":4162584,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"kristenlegrow"}
{"commentId":4093078,"authorDomain":"williambarentine1"}
"GUN CONTROL"
..and that's all there is to say.
"IF", you take all the guns away from honest people, and decent people, then ONLY the criminals, low lifes and scumbags will have guns!
What a way to go out!
CCW's?
Why bother?
Ever see anyone pick a fight with someone wearing a pistol on their hip?
Not me!
Now it is said the new Prez' will try to BAN all ccw's!
My son, the law enforcement officer, will be really happy with that crap!
It's NOT the guns!
It's the demented idiots and jerks!
Can you blame a car for driving drunk?
Or, for speeding?
Then go blame your phone for those damned telemarketers too!
We have to find somebody to blame, always!
So here we are!
Society is to blame.
Or, we can blame rocks for avalanches, dirt and rain as accomplices to mudslides, and forest fires on the trees, or, GOD, if you believe in such!
You are dealing with the MOST deadly species on earth......
HUMANS!
Why else would we have serial killers, rapists, bank robbers, child molesters, and the rest of the crud?
Answer:
TERMINATION, of the entire species.
There's the final answer, to all of our problems.
There is NO other viable solution to greed and inhumanity!
Have a nice day!
{"commentId":4093078,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"williambarentine1"}
- 1 vote
#2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:17 AM EST{"commentId":4094986,"authorDomain":"goldfish4ob"}
{"commentId":4098522,"authorDomain":"Rubcanela"}
{"commentId":4099456,"authorDomain":null}
In no way, shape or form, do I support gun control. In my opinion gun control will only remove guns from law abiding citizens, the criminals and nutcases will never have a problem acquiring a gun. I happen to once again be a college student (yes at my age, it's a long story). I am now attending what is considered an urban university, it is smack dab in "down town" Portland and is a beautiful campus, but I cannot see how in this location and the structure of the campus could possibly be conducive to security. And on occassion I have felt some trepidation while on campus, that being said I don't think that my carrying a gun would make a difference. But there have been incidents elsewhere, in which armed citizens were able to prevent crimes. This is a subject that I think has to be discussed openly and keeping in mind that college students are legally adults and as such have the right to own weapons and if they wish obtain permits to conceal.
{"commentId":4099456,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610"}
{"commentId":4093184,"authorDomain":"EEEEEMAN"}
Gun Control is not the answer to the complicated problem of criminal behavior. People freak for many reasons, violent behavior in general is leaned behavior. This behavior has many resources for reference and can be attributed to a few things such as mind altercation due to drugs or medication, economical pressures due to loss of jobs or career, or even distraught mates. The list is numerous, but the plan and simple is that a disregard for ones life and that of others has been around since history has been recorded. So will gun control solve the problem?
{"commentId":4093184,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"EEEEEMAN"}
- 2 votes
#3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:36 AM EST{"commentId":4093433,"authorDomain":"Lerianis4"}
{"commentId":4105362,"authorDomain":"mrtn"}
And in Britain, they have campaigns to try to cut down on knife crime. It's difficult to get guns, so certain segments of society run around with blades under their clothes and slash and stab each other to death. The pleas sound exactly like gun control advocation here. Taking away guns will not take away violence.
{"commentId":4105362,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"mrtn"}
{"commentId":4093329,"authorDomain":"Ala-gunslinger"}
Warning signs should be placed around all 'Gun Free Zones'!
W A R N I N G !!!!
You are now entering a gun free zone!
{"commentId":4093329,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"Ala-gunslinger"}
#4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:06 AM EST{"commentId":4093440,"authorDomain":"Lerianis4"}
{"commentId":4100478,"authorDomain":"WhippedGerbil"}
Warning signs should be placed around all 'Gun Free Zones'!
W A R N I N G !!!!
You are now entering a gun free zone!
Yup. According to the gun control nuts, that's all that's necessary. The Virginia Tech wacko would have seen that sign and backed his sorry carcass up and gone home!
/sarcasm
{"commentId":4100478,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"WhippedGerbil"}
{"commentId":4093562,"authorDomain":"kw88"}
I work in student affairs and my wife worked for a campus police force. No matter what the media hype states college campuses are still as safe, if not safer than anywhere else.
Guns have no place on a college campus. Campuses are areas of higher learning and free thought. Weapons do not belong, weapons through their history are tools to limit thought.
The issue at hand is how to have systems in place to recognize students at risk (meaning those that may cause harm to others) and at the same time protect the rights of students that may be called weird by others but are not at risk of harming anyone.
Truth is there is no way to make anywhere completely safe. Campus officials have done a lot since Tech to re-asses how they handle emergencies and address students that are identified as troubled.
I have sat on committees tasked with assessing emergency response on campus and identify and developing new alert systems. In crisis response you learn you can not control the event, what you do control is how you prepare and what systems are in place to recover. The thought that if someone has a gun they can return fire seems crazy to me. I would be curious to see if there are any significant incidents of this happening. It seems like a cowboy fantasy more than anything. Shooting it out is not the answer. The answer is sound emergency plans and training staff to recognize at risk students and notifying the administration.
In the interest of full disclosure; I own a hand gun and I am a member of the NRA.
{"commentId":4093562,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"kw88"}
- 3 votes
#5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:38 AM EST{"commentId":4095171,"authorDomain":"chibidraco"}
I agree with you, and I don't think there IS a concrete answer for how to solve this problem. I also work at a University and I've been watching the administration fumble around blindly with expensive scheme after expensive scheme trying to figure out which will work best.
First they implemented a text messaging service to alert faculty, staff, and students. Then they discovered it cuts off half the message on 99% of phones that have a 160 character limit, because it comes with an automatic header that takes up half the message telling us it's an emergency text message (well, duh). The next brilliant scheme was to buy (get this) a tornado siren to alert us all if there's danger on campus. Other than inspiring panic, what is a blaring siren going to do? We don't live in an area that sees tornados and I'm guessing that most people are going to try to find shelter or make a run for it - either of which may put them in further danger. A system that made an announcement may have been a bit more effective, but just a siren? Please. Do we shelter in place? Do we duck and cover? Do we run for our lives? Do we pick up the nearest brick and throw it at the gunman? Who knows...our university safety policy doesn't even have a section on campus violence. (it's under revision)
I'm hoping that other universities are better organized than ours, but from what I've read from other comments we have a long way to go and need to pull ourselves out of panic mode and start thinking realistically.
{"commentId":4095171,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"chibidraco"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":4099017,"authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
We must keep a number of things in mind when this issue is dragged up again and again and again.
For starters, campuses are not unique locations; most who work there or study there are adults. We are not talking schools, like K-to-3 or middle school.
Next, we must consider that police are rarely 1st responders to violent confrontations. They come afterwards, when the shooter is either dead or gone, and then lock the place down.
Next, we should consider a hard truth. Philosophicalyy speaking, in a free society, laws are enacted to protect the citizens, and often the citizens need protection from the state. Laws put in place to protect the state or its employees from the public are bad laws.
If arms are our birthright, and SCOTUS has recently affirmed this, then any non-felon has the right to them anywhere the individual feels threatened.
Those who own or plan to buy weapons as is our birthright should be aware that a goal of the new administration is disarming American citizens, United Nations style. Obama and Biden have said they want to do this many times, so it is not even debatable.
More insidious is that in implementing this plan, they want to immediately make felons of those who presently own weapons at the stroke of a pen. In doing so, they remove these people from the voting process and consolidate their position of power.
Remember, these people have a number of goals, but the principle one is winning the 2012 election. Nothing else comes close to that goal; not the economy, security on campus or in your home, ridding the airwaves of their opponents, nothing else.
I cannot for the life of me understand how what I just wrote of has become a conservative position. Don't liberals fear the state?
{"commentId":4099017,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
{"commentId":4105385,"authorDomain":"mrtn"}
I am sure that campuses are safer than most places in society.
Still it is not enough. And as they continue to be targets, nothing but concealed carry seems to have any possibility of working. Even prison-like lockdowns don't keep out everything...
{"commentId":4105385,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"mrtn"}
{"commentId":4093727,"authorDomain":"jeremyober"}
Media stories such as this are the true downfall in America. Fear mongering bull to breed weakness into what should be the most powerful country on earth.
{"commentId":4093727,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"jeremyober"}
#6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:59 AM EST{"commentId":4094080,"authorDomain":"grospoliner"}
The easiest way to make a place safer is to limit the possible points of entry to the school. In otherwords, put walls and fences up around the school and make everyone pass through a metal detector or one of the other detection machines they have out now while armed security is present.
Don't like that idea? That's the only thing that will cut down on violence as it would find people carrying firearms, most likely illegally (no cc permit). I'm personally not keen on people carrying firearms into school as it creates more potential problems with IFF (identify friend from foe) in a situation that could result in casualties among innocent people. I would support less lethal weapons for students that could be used to incapacitate a person, as it would reduce the risk of friendly fire while providing a measure of safety.
{"commentId":4094080,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"grospoliner"}
#7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:41 AM EST{"commentId":4094278,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
All I can do is quote someone with intelligence. and ask if i cannot carry then are they going to be responsable for my well being?
Ben Franklin Said it best
He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security
{"commentId":4094278,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
#8 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:02 AM EST{"commentId":4094681,"authorDomain":"philbincanada"}
I believe that this country already restricts the ownership of firearms, especially handguns, far too much! However, with that said, has anyone ever been to a college campus on a Friday or Saturday night? Drinking, fighting, larceny, vandalism, etc....not a population you want running around with firearms....While they are adults, many students do not have the maturity that is required to carry a firearms.
{"commentId":4094681,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"philbincanada"}
#9 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:40 AM EST{"commentId":4094811,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
West Liberty (In Wheeling WV) just had 4 stabbings, are they gonna outlaw knives now?
{"commentId":4094811,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
{"commentId":4095016,"authorDomain":"goldfish4ob"}
{"commentId":4094842,"authorDomain":"ssgdavisc07"}
Carrying CCW's on Campus is absolutely ridiculous. As the Campus Police chief said, it would elevate the risk of the wrong person being apprehended or even killed by the law enforcement who do show up to handle the situation.
Not too mention just because someone has a CCW permit does not make them responsible with a Firearm. I have had a CCW Permit since 2004 which was relatively easy to get. My military background helped a lot but for the most part I spent 2 days in a Firearms safety course and that was it, which didn't amount to anything. (Besides the background check through the ATF).
I spent 14 yrs in the U.S. Army ultimately becoming a certified Sniper which I did for the last 6 yrs (medically retired in 2006 after being wounded in Iraq - 3rd tour). I have seen firsthand the chaos that an unexperienced Civilian with a firearm can cause. I am a strong advocate for the right to bear arms, however, to put firearms in the hands of students at college is simply reverting to the wild wild west again. Another point is, majority of these nut jobs that pull these suicidal stunts at college campuses are or were college students to begin with. Carrying a firearm will not deter anyone with a mental disorder but will only aggravate the situation even further which of course would probably lead to more deaths that could have been avoided.
{"commentId":4094842,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"ssgdavisc07"}
- 1 vote
#10 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:53 AM EST{"commentId":4099550,"authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
Is being a cop a risk-free job? In this society, acting as if one with a gun is a threat to the officer merely indicates that the first priority of the police is protection of the police. Without being accused of wishing the best, a long life, a long retirement, etc.
But even so, John Q. Public must come first, and that HAS to have an impact on how the cop does his/her job.
{"commentId":4099550,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
{"commentId":4094916,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
Just remember that the minutes it takes a police officer to respond after you call 911 seconds count.
I could not care less if you can carry on campus my thinking is if I can’t carry then I can’t go there where ever it is and let’s let Darwin take over the idiots in the no carry areas.
{"commentId":4094916,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
#11 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:59 AM EST{"commentId":4094944,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
The sad fact is they will continue to kill themselves no matter what and all I can do is make sure I am protected by not being around there.
{"commentId":4094944,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
#12 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:01 AM EST{"commentId":4094958,"authorDomain":"dtechba"}
Yeah, lets turn American campus's into armed fortresses. Seriously, students are dying in droves arenn't they? No, they are not and it is sensationalism like this that fuels the craziness.
{"commentId":4094958,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"dtechba"}
- 1 vote
#13 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:02 AM EST{"commentId":4095021,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
Wait a minute I didn’t say let’s do that, I said let them kill each other that’s the way they want it or they would protect themselves . I also said that I don’t go anywhere I can’t protect myself. So please do not put words in my mouth.
Let’s look at the facts in every anti gun state the crime is not only higher but much much higher so if the people choose to stay there then let them and let them deal with it it’s not my problem as I choose not to live in or visit those areas.
{"commentId":4095021,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
{"commentId":4095057,"authorDomain":"dc4457"}
Well, lets try to look at both arguments realistically here:
Against guns we have the possibility of gunfights in classrooms, police accidentally shooting the wrong people, walls and fences with metal detectors as a better alternative.
In favor of guns we have speed of reaction: in many instances people have had time to fire off a full clip, reload their weapon and fire off another dozen shots as people scrambled in terror. If someone else has a gun, the perpetrator probably isn't going to get off more than a few shots before someone returns fire. Could this "friendly fire" injure or kill another student? Maybe, if they are really unlucky, but realistically the shots are going to be aimed at the one person in the room not lying on the floor or huddled under a desk. Time is an issue, because these people are not being shot dead by police on the scene. They are killing many people over periods of several minutes, then killing themselves. Before the police arrive there are usually a number of fatalities.
As for gunfights in the classroom, we aren't talking about gangbangers in the hood here. These are college students, theoretically they have something in their heads besides crack smoke. Having gone through classes to get a concealed carry permit in the first place, they should be fairly responsible and safety-conscious. Rational, intelligent people are not going to whip out a gun in class and shoot the professor for giving them an F or someone else for mocking their silly answer, especially as they know they may not be the only armed student there.
As for police shooting the wrong person, it could happen. Especially if the police are triggerhappy. One would assume they would at least identify themselves, maybe yell "police, drop the gun!" before cutting some random person down in a hail of bullets. Well, maybe not the LAPD, but most police. Even if there is only one armed person, and they are definately firing at students, they are supposed to be taken alive if possible. The people who shoot up schools, as stated before, are suicidal. They will either turn and fire at the police or off themselves when confronted. Students will drop their guns and do what the nice officer tells them. Moreover, as stated above, a shootout between two people is not likely to last long enough for the police to be alerted, much less arrive on campus and kill anybody. The chance of two students killing each other by mistake is also there, but highly unlikely, since they will be trained in their CC classes not to just pull a gun and start shooting wildly.
Thirdly, metal detectors to keep out weapons. Yes, they could be built, at great expense, around every building on every campus in America. They would immediately create the same kind of logjam you find at airports today. It would create a wonderful new excuse for missing class... "sorry professor, I forgot I was wearing a belt buckle, and by the time the strip search was over I was out of time". There are a huge number of things people carry that can set one off, and college campuses in my experience are a milling mass of people trying to get from one class or building to another. Having every one of them pass through a metal detector which is being set off by keys, chains, studs on jackets or too many piercings is just going to be a nightmare. And remember, you would HAVE to have them at the entrance to each building. If there's one wall with one entrance around a sprawling campus, people are just going to toss their bag of guns over the wall in some secluded spot and pass through free as a bird to pick them up on the other side.
Yes, college campuses are very safe places, relatively speaking. Not that there aren't significant numbers of rapes and assaults involving college students, but these take place in dorms and bars, and having lived for years in college towns I have seen how police are "encouraged" not to give the school a bad name by investigating too thoroughly. A threat of retaliation might give the sane people pause for thought, and against the insane ones it might mean only one or two deaths instead or eight or twelve.
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#14 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:12 AM EST{"commentId":4095100,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
Well said
{"commentId":4095100,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
{"commentId":4099927,"authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
What happens when a cop goes beserk? This never happens? We must just pray this special case is not possible
{"commentId":4099927,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
{"commentId":4095286,"authorDomain":"mamamarcia77"}
As the mother of 2 students at Va Tech, I can assure you that not enough is being done to protect our kids. Last week they had someone report the sound of gunshots outside one of the dorms. The supposed "high tech alert system" FAILED to notify everyone. Thankfully it was a false alarm and the sound was only a prank. On April 16th, 2007 there were supposedly 6 people with active concealed weapon permits on campus nearby who could not carry their guns on campus. If one of them could have carried their legal gun on campus and been able to shoot the gunman that day, 32 lives would have been saved.........THINK ABOUT IT! I dare anybody to take away my right to bear arms and think that maybe they should allow people to carry a gun on campus if they have a legal permit. On some of these campuses there are cadets and ROTC students who are very well trained with guns, why can't they carry them and provide protection? It would be like having free police. Think long and hard before they ban guns from campuses.
{"commentId":4095286,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"mamamarcia77"}
#15 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:34 AM EST{"commentId":4100315,"authorDomain":"the3nigma"}
There is marksmanship training in the military, I'll give you that when speaking about the cadets and ROTC students, but they are also trained to shoot a rifle, not a pistol. Once they finally get their training it is also not about trying to take down a lone gunman, it's squad based combat.
{"commentId":4100315,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"the3nigma"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":4095610,"authorDomain":"boneman"}
It's good to see gun control on college campuses but what about antidepressant drug vending control? Both guns and antidepressants have been linked in the majority of school shootings in the last 20 years. Is the problem that the antidepressant drug vendors have a stronger lobbying presence in Congress than the gun venders? Very sad if that's the case and campus public safety is too "expensive" in terms of antidepressant drug control involving too massive antidepressant vendor losses if such a measure could be legislated.
{"commentId":4095610,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"boneman"}
#16 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:59 AM EST{"commentId":4095740,"authorDomain":"burkhart"}
Interesting male to female victim ratio in that sidebar.
Guns aren't the problem or the solution. If the kids don't shoot each other, they stab each other. Could be we need to make some significant societal changes.
{"commentId":4095740,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"burkhart"}
- 1 vote
#17 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:10 PM EST{"commentId":4100978,"authorDomain":"WhippedGerbil"}
Could be we need to make some significant societal changes.
Hey! No logic allowed here! :P
/silliness
I think that's the point that a lot of the clear-headed ones have been trying to make. Would everyone please re-read that last sentence on Leah's post?
{"commentId":4100978,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"WhippedGerbil"}
{"commentId":4096083,"authorDomain":"boneman"}
Gun control is helpful but what about antidepressant drug control? Both have been linked to the majority of school shootings in the last 20 years. Is the antidepressant drug vendor lobby stronger than the guns vendors lobby? Is public safety on campus too expensive if laws were enacted prohibiting the prescription and dispensing of antidepressant drugs on or off campus? This really doesn't seem as complex as the mental health "experts" portray it.
{"commentId":4096083,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"boneman"}
- 1 vote
#18 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:37 PM EST{"commentId":4096090,"authorDomain":"kessler-kristin"}
I am a college student and quite frankly, the thought of my fellow students carrying concealed guns around campus terrifies me. It does not make me feel any safer, but rather worried at what might happen if a shooting did occur on campus and those with their weapons wanted to "help."
Please, for my sake and the sake of my fellow students, no guns on campus!
{"commentId":4096090,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"kessler-kristin"}
- 1 vote
#19 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:38 PM EST{"commentId":4098219,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
if theres a shooting and any one can help protect you that has a ccw they should say sorry shoot him first
{"commentId":4098219,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
{"commentId":4099029,"authorDomain":"wwfleming"}
If additional students have weapons and are shooting during crisis altercation, those students are more likely to be shot by law enforcement personnel. There have been a few cases in our area in which and undercover policeman with a drawn weapon was killed by uniformed policemen. What they saw was an unidentified individual with a pistol. If a student were to have a ccw license and had drawn a pistol, the police aer not going to ask to see a ccw license. The odds are very high that he/she will be shot and killed.
The idea of being a student or a teacher in a university in which some of the students have concealed weapons is scary. Some of the people that want or have ccw licenses are more edgy and unstable and more likely to shoot someone because they have crazy ideas and attitudes.
{"commentId":4099029,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"wwfleming"}
{"commentId":4099597,"authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
Adults can cope. Adults should leap at the opportunity freedom brings. In a free society we trust each other and mistrust the state.
{"commentId":4099597,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"tcarney343"}
{"commentId":4096655,"authorDomain":"goldensealherbs"}
In college a fair number of us carried pistols. We told and even target practiced with security. Once during a storm when isolated from the state police due to icing roads, campus security recruited those of us carrying and put us on guard of a female dorm after some rape threats were called in. There was also a black-out due to iced lines. A few hours later we saw the perpetrators approaching through the forested hillside. security pursed the would be attackers and they were arrested. I like to think that this is a good example of common sense Americans providing their own security. America can defend her freedom from within or without make NO mistake!
Gun control is hitting your target. Sorry so many of you are afraid of the very thing that keeps us free. If not for American gun rights you would all be speaking japanese now. Look it up in your books kids!
{"commentId":4096655,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"goldensealherbs"}
#20 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:20 PM EST{"commentId":4097053,"authorDomain":"magineer02"}
Your story is an exception to the rule but that doesn't not make it right to carry concealed weapons.
As for your statement of "If not for gun rights you would all be speaking Japanese now". I suggest you spend some time looking it up yourself. You obviously no nothing of WWII which had nothing whatsoever to do with the right to bear arms. You're mixing apples and oranges.
{"commentId":4097053,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"magineer02"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":4097178,"authorDomain":"goldensealherbs"}
Look deeper and study Japanese imperial strategy for invasion of mainland USA.
And by the way it is right to carry if it is legal and it is legal in most parts of the US.
{"commentId":4097178,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"goldensealherbs"}
{"commentId":4098071,"authorDomain":"mikenkugel"}
"A Justice Department study found 62 violent crimes per 100,000 college students in 2004, compared with 462 per 100,000 Americans overall."
Please READ the article. These are the facts. I support gun ownership and own a gun myself, but conceal and carry is a joke. The classes you take do not prepare you to use a weapon in a potentially violent situation. Police spend much of their time training for such situations and civilians don't learn it in a few hours of classroom time. Ask any police officer....like my brother.
Bobthebeliever to your point, the State of MO is a conceal and carry State. It was voted down by Missourian's only to be put in place by a Republican controlled Legistature and Governor. So much for what the voters thought as we saw the full measure of arrogance of the Republicans and the NRA. That being said you see sign after sign in public places that forbid the possession of legally concealed weapons. That includes schools thank God. It should stay that way. I'm for gun ownership, but reasonable gun control. The 2nd Amendment was just upheld by the Supreme Court remember....nobody is going to take away your guns.
{"commentId":4098071,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"mikenkugel"}
{"commentId":4098271,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
interesting numbers that from your own quote alsmost 14% of violent crimes happens on campus
{"commentId":4098271,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
{"commentId":4098314,"authorDomain":"mikenkugel"}
Terry,
Yes violence happens, but that does not justify an irrational, knee-jerk response. It's a matter of degree and taking appropriate measures. Read BZK's comments below. I have a son and daughter in college. It's not like I have my head in the sand.
{"commentId":4098314,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"mikenkugel"}
{"commentId":4099190,"authorDomain":"wwfleming"}
"we saw the perpetrators approaching" ...Hmmm
I find the claimed incident a bit questionable. That said, these supposed people are not "perpetrators" if they have not actually committed a crime. If they were observed and the campus cops were called, this did not require concealed weapons; a good baseball bat would have been sufficient.
It is my understanding that most rapes in colleges are "date rapes" committed on coeds by other students. In many or most of these cases, if a campus cop is called they will not do anything and are more likely to take the position that the girl was asking for it. A college male that commits a date rape or even a non-date rape are less likely to be tried in public courts for the crime. Campus cops are more inclinded to suppress crimes because it makes them look bad or hurts the reputation of the school.
Date rapes and larceny are the more prevalent crimes on campus.
{"commentId":4099190,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"wwfleming"}
{"commentId":4096958,"authorDomain":"magineer02"}
I always thought that high schools and colleges were a place to learn, and better ones self but more and more we hear of shootings on campus's. Perhaps one solution would be to have all students go through gun control checks like they have at airports or some stores, yes I have even seen these at stores and they weren't gun shops! Students should not be allowed to carry concealed weapons to school.
I think the media is in large part to be blamed for this because we hear nothing but murder robberies etc every time we turn on the TV, and all the movies seem to have violence as their main theme. Young people are very impressionable and they tend to mimic what they see and hear. Additionally, those adults who own guns should have them safely locked up away from their kids reach so that there's no way they can aquire those guns.
Lastly, parents need to get involved with their children's lives and stop passing the buck. No one said it was easy by any means but if you're not willing to get involved with your children and step up to the plate and teach them right from wrong along with all the other lessons of life maybe you shouldn't of had them in the first place.
{"commentId":4096958,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"magineer02"}
#21 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:44 PM EST{"commentId":4097351,"authorDomain":"goldensealherbs"}
I do really like where you are going with this. I agree that the media is too often after senationalism and it does hurt our youth. I agree with strong family values. I was given them and thank goodness I have never had to take a life to protect my own, but I was taught to forgive and defend what is right and realize that could occur someday.
We have ran from trouble but trouble should think twice before wrongly attacking someones right to life.
The answer is Christ he died for our sins and if we believe on him we shall see a day without hate, fear and sadness. God is present during our conflicts he is watching how each of us behave. He is interested in a nation who claims to trust in him.
Live well, praise often and pray for salvation.
{"commentId":4097351,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"goldensealherbs"}
{"commentId":4097500,"authorDomain":"mamamarcia77"}
Unfortunately in the Virginia Tech shootings you had parents who were ashamed to admit their son was a nut case and society's inability to take care of the mentally ill. This kid should never have been allowed to buy a gun with his mental history and the local mental health agency who knew about his mental issues did not follow up on his case and make sure he got treatment.
I also can understand Ash Kat's concerns but she is obviously not a parent and is very naive about the world we live in. My daughter was less than a block away from the shootings at VT. She and the other students were huddled down in their room on the floor for fear that someone was going to kill them. She still has not gotten over the shock of it all and I don't think she ever will. If someone had just done their job at the mental health agency that knew this kid was a nut case and if the gun shop owner had been a little more responsible about selling the gun to Cho, this never would have happened. Parents and society need to notice if there are mentally ill people running around and seek help for them. The right to protect oneself is also a fundamental right which no government should take away from us. Government also has an obligation to protect us from dangerous people.
{"commentId":4097500,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"mamamarcia77"}
{"commentId":4097073,"authorDomain":"capol21"}
Unfortunately, I think this boils down to comprehensive psych exams for incoming students and follow-ups for the next 3 years.
{"commentId":4097073,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"capol21"}
- 1 vote
#22 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:53 PM EST{"commentId":4098380,"authorDomain":"boneman"}
Only problem is the more psych exams you get, the more students you get forced onto antidepressants and antipsychotics and then when those students can obtain guns you get an environment ripe for a Virginia Tech type shooting at any moment. And the shooters always get blamed never the drugs. And these drugs never seem to be very far away from the shootings so everyone can get really blind about this and get repeatedly really surprised and confused over this "complex" issue.
{"commentId":4098380,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"boneman"}
{"commentId":4097455,"authorDomain":"judithegreene"}
The lack of security on college campuses -- at least American ones -- has been a dirty little secret for many years, and especially for young women. Women are raped with impunity around the country by males who are from the community, as well as from the student population. College administrations have kept it all hush-hush for fear of losing money in the form of enrollments. I guess the "nuts" among us may have, in reality, be doing us all a favor by upping the odds by spraying gunfire around, huh? When the shooting started, the administrations pretty much had to pay attention ... !
{"commentId":4097455,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"judithegreene"}
#23 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:22 PM EST{"commentId":4097781,"authorDomain":"micksmit"}
{"commentId":4097875,"authorDomain":"jamesruston"}
Just what we need, more guns on campus in the hands of excitable teenagers being egged on by delusional gun nuts.
{"commentId":4097875,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"jamesruston"}
- 1 vote
#25 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:55 PM EST{"commentId":4098370,"authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
Facts are facts buddy see the artical above
{"commentId":4098370,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"terryl-1"}
{"commentId":4097971,"authorDomain":"johnfrommissouri"}
Right,blame the NRA.Only a misinformed dolt would do that.The NRA is about ENFORCING the thousands of gun laws already on the books.Banning guns just encourages crime as the gunmen know nobody but them has a weapon.In Australia,Great Britain and even larger Canadian cities,they are seeing huge spokes in gun crime because criminals feel safe in the gun controlled environment.We can't stop illegal drigs coming into the country and you think you can stop illegal guns??get a life,better yet,get a brain!!
{"commentId":4097971,"threadId":"421234","contentId":"2119610","authorDomain":"johnfrommissouri"}
- 1 vote
#26 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:01 PM EST{"commentId":4152934,"authorDomain":"micksmit"}
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