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Recession-proof? Maybe not this time

Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:29 AM EST
business, entertainment, economy, only-on-msnbc-com, economy-in-turmoil, economic, starbucks, revenue, downturn
msnbc.com News — By Allison Linn

A dealer waits for gamblers at the Palazzo hotel & casino is pictured in Las Vegas on Wednesday, May 7, 2008. (AP Photo/Isaac Brekken)

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— For years, Starbucks’ coffee drinks were considered the type of affordable luxury that could withstand the ebbs and flows of the U.S. economy.

Americans, the thinking went, might cut back on big expenditures like a new car or a new couch in an economic downturn, but they’d still feel justified in treating themselves to a frothy coffee drink when they were having to deprive themselves of so much else.

That sort of conventional wisdom was thrown out the window about a year ago, when Starbucks conceded that the once high-flying company was losing its footing. It has since been forced to close stores and lay off workers as profits have plummeted.

While Starbucks certainly has made its share of missteps, it’s clear that part of its problem is simply that more and more Americans began to question whether they could really afford a $4 coffee drink when that money could be going to more pressing needs like gas, food or heating bills.

Starbucks isn’t the only company that could be hit unexpectedly hard in this downturn. As the country faces its worst financial crisis in decades, experts say sectors such as gambling, cigarettes and entertainment — all once considered relatively immune to economic hardship — could start feeling the pinch of the country’s current belt-tightening.

“The things that have been recession-proof in the past are proving to be punished by this recession,” said Burt P. Flickinger III, managing director of Strategic Resource Group.

That’s partly because this downturn — which has not yet technically been declared a recession — could end up being much worse than others in recent memory. But it also comes as more Americans are finding themselves with little if any savings, and less access to credit, leaving them with less money to spend on the escapist splurges that might otherwise have fared better in a downturn.

“The consumer is more cash- and credit-constrained than any time during the last four decades,” Flickinger said.

Flickinger also thinks the companies behind those sectors share some of the blame, because they aggressively pushed up prices for everything from movie tickets to premium television during the good times. That, in turn, is making it harder for some Americans to justify an increasingly premium TV package, or night at the movies, in downtimes.

The troubles for companies such as Starbucks also could be exacerbated by the fact that this economic downturn has included widespread difficulties in traditionally well-paying areas such as financial services.

“Some people that probably thought they were largely invulnerable to a recession are finding themselves vulnerable,” said Ken Mayland, president of the forecasting firm ClearView Economics.

Although it is still too early to say how much these sectors will be hurt by the downturn, some troubling signs are emerging.

Even — or especially — when times are tough, the common assumption has been that people will continue to gamble for relief and the hope of striking it rich. But Keith Schwer, director of the Center for Business and Economic Research at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, notes that that type of thinking was based on the more shallow recessions such as the ones in 1991 and 2001.

With the economy appearing to be in deeper despair, gaming companies and the Nevada economy as a whole is already grappling with hard times.

MGM Mirage reported an 8 percent dip in casino revenue in the third quarter ended Sept. 30, and the company halted development of a new property in Atlantic City, N.J., citing the weak economy and tight credit conditions. Harrah’s Entertainment swung to a loss in the same period, and also blamed its woes on economic upheaval.

For Las Vegas specifically, Schwer said part of the problem is that gaming is now much more widespread in the United States, meaning that people can gamble locally without the expense of a trip to Vegas. Many gaming companies also were in the midst of expansion when the economy started to turn, meaning stiffer competition.

“Not only is the economy slowing and there’s less business, but we’re dividing it additional times with new properties,” Schwer said.

Conventional wisdom also has held that people will smoke and drink alcohol even when budgets are tight. But that assumption is now being tested. Altria Group, whose holdings include cigarette maker Philip Morris USA, recently told The Associated Press that it had started to cut jobs because of economic turmoil.

Even if they are cutting back elsewhere, many have believed that people will continue to think of their cable television as another utility, like water or electricity, and keep paying the bill even when their budgets get tight. But this time around, Flickinger said his research is showing that premium television is one of the first items people are cutting back on in parts of the country that have been hard-hit by layoffs or other labor strife.

“The first thing to go is cable, the second thing to go is the phone, the third thing to go is the second car and then the fourth thing to go is the house,” Flickinger said.

While it’s still early days, there are signs those individual decisions are starting to impact providers. Satellite TV provider Dish Network Inc. recently reported a net loss of 10,000 subscribers in the third quarter ended Sept. 30, and it cited the weak economy as one factor in the loss of business. In a regulatory filing, the company also warned that bad economic conditions could impact consumer demand for pay-TV services going forward.

Those cable providers who have expanded into Internet and phone offerings may be better poised to survive a downturn because they have more diverse sources of revenue.

As the economic downturn continues, many also will be watching closely to see how much it will affect people’s appetite for sporting events. Rodney Fort, a professor of sports management at the University of Michigan, expects that sports revenue will be impacted by the downturn, with hockey and baseball feeling more of a pinch than basketball and football.

Still, he said it’s hard to say how much any sport will be impacted at this point because there isn’t reliable data from similar downturns in the past. While it’s true that attendance famously rose at sporting events during the Great Depression, Fort said it’s not clear that revenue also improved.

Fort also noted that the sports industry has changed substantially in recent decades. Not only has television revenue become much more important, but ticket sales have become more dependent on high-income fans and corporations willing to shell out for pricey boxes and season tickets.

Many also have traditionally believed that people will continue to splurge on a night out at the movies even when times are tight. But some expect that theory to be tested this time around as well. That’s partly because the cost of buying a movie ticket and snacks has risen substantially in recent years, and partly because it’s become easier to rent a DVD or get one for free from the library, and pop your own popcorn.

“(Watching) a DVD on the widescreen TV sets that a lot of people already have is a pretty good substitute for going to the movies, so I wouldn’t bet my life on the fortunes of movie theaters,” said Mayland, the economist.

Nevertheless, some in the industry remain optimistic. In a conference call with analysts last month, Regal Entertainment Group Chief Executive Mike Campbell conceded that prices have gone up, but said a trip to the movie theater remained less expensive than other forms of entertainment.

“Our industry is probably as recession resistant, based on historical facts, as any that I'm aware of,” Campbell said in the earnings conference call.

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JBHiker

It was all about Super-Greed. Now what?

  • 4 votes
#1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:52 AM EST
M. WHITE BEAR

Having been alive during the REALLY BIG DEPRESSION people need to learn real quickly how to live on the cheap. Times are going to get alot worse in the coming days, LEARN QUICK.

In some ways this current mess is going to be worse for many than the last depression. How so, in the 30's businesses closed because of no money. FDR put companies back to work with an infusion of cash to re-open. Problem now is, so many manufactoring jobs have gone overseas we no longer have that ability as a country.

WAKE UP QUICK TO SAVE YOURSELF.

TROUBLE IS COMING FAST.

  • 11 votes
#1.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:49 PM EST
dogfishs

Super greed like the $2.00 piece of felt I replaced around the bottom of my G. E. dryer drum that cost me a wopping $20.00! or the little nylon pieces 3" X 1/2" in front of the dryer drum on top that probably cost .25 cents cost me $9.95 each all made in Canada! Who is getting the wind fall?

  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:52 PM EST
Home-owner

The labor Unions. The place I left two years ago went from $50.00 union dues to $150.00 a month. This does not include benefits or anything else, just for negotiations.

  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:24 PM EST
richard Bellefeuille

Those Hum V's will be affordable soon to anyone that still might want one as they start to have the flair of the old Buick Electra's.

    #1.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:04 PM EST
    goldfish4obamaDeleted
    flightdoc

    It would appear to me that Osama has won.....and all he needed to was fly a few planes into inanimate objects.  He realized he couldn't go toe to toe with us with our military might, so he went for the jugular....our economy.  He knew that we had an executive in office (several, in fact) that were just looking for an excuse to invade Iraq, and he gave it to them.  Brilliant man, that Osama.  Hated, but brilliant.

    • 5 votes
    #1.6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:27 PM EST
    Don Mac

    Hated ! Only by the cry babies. Get over it and support him.

    • 2 votes
    #1.7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:56 PM EST
    kaviaq

    Umm, Don Mac, flightdoc is actually talking about Osama bin Ladin, not making fun of Obama's name...read more carefully.

    • 7 votes
    #1.8 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:13 PM EST
    George-731623

    This is the first year I am not heating our porto-potty at our farm.

    • 2 votes
    #1.9 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:28 PM EST
    zep

    Love these comments.....

    Super greed like the $2.00 piece of felt I replaced around the bottom of my G. E. dryer drum that cost me a wopping $20.00! or the little nylon pieces 3" X 1/2" in front of the dryer drum on top that probably cost .25 cents cost me $9.95 each all made in Canada! Who is getting the wind fall?

    Or maybe you like this one:

    This is the first year I am not heating our porto-potty at our farm.

    Or perhaps this is your style:

    Those Hum V's will be affordable soon to anyone that still might want one as they start to have the flair of the old Buick Electra's.

    It is quite obvious that NONE of you have ever known true poverty. Some person griping about their tumble dryer.....GET REAL.

    Heat in your porta potty? Perhaps a joke?

    Point is that very few in this country of America really know what real poverty is.

    Time to get educated, because you sound like whiny little bitches! 

    • 4 votes
    #1.10 - Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:48 AM EST
    Commonsense-545576

    So, are you going to sell your 2000 Chevy paid off for a brand new electric oil saver for $30,000? ....I think not with gas at 2.50. Even at $6 a gallon. Payments vs. gas? mmm? When you concider that so far we've lost 500k jobs in a nation of 350 million that's 1/700 so far more unemployed. Media will cover every thousand layoffs too, so watch the hype. Looking at a 10% unemployment would be another 15.5 million people laid off. If this is true it will get a whole lot worse. Let's see 1 million in automotive, ....

    • 2 votes
    #1.11 - Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:22 AM EST
    Commonsense-545576

    ...so, 700 billion dollars divided by the employed, at 10% unemployed, is a little over $2,000 each. Rolling back the tax cuts +2,000=4,000 each less 40% who don't pay taxes is close to another $5-7,000 a year for the well off each, this year. Throw in growth of government, health care, welfare and it's close to $15,000 each, or so, a year more. ...and can you all save more money!?... what are you doing with all of your money!!?

    • 2 votes
    #1.12 - Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:58 AM EST
    avengingthepovertyline!

    Many Americans have been scraping and scrounging, picking up change in parking lots for years, and never thought of starbucks coffee as a staple for living. Eating generic cereal and wearing hand-me-down clothes has been a way of life for many people. when the economy is suffering, the people start complaining, when they have had luxuries day in and day out, Americans are full of sugar coated idealistic thoughts, they forget the important values and the hard work it took for their great grandparents and grandparents to get us back on our feet after the Great Depression. A lot of hard, muscle aching work. No skimpy 8-12 hour days, but 14-16 hour shifts. Yes, we have lots of labor laws now, and we have electronic back massagers and nice cars all to make our life easier and happier, but the work ethic of people past seems to be all but forgotten. No one president is going to get us out of this mess without the people's help and work, sweat, and tears. Is that not what the country of the United States of America was built upon!? What did the first Americans come to the "new world" for? We wanted freedoms galore, and we got them! There are thousands of things we take for granted, even writing on this discussion board. Please oh American, the luxuries we think we need, how important are they? We need to fight for the important things. Let's have another Boston Tea Party on Property taxes or what ever your cause is, let it be your determination for change. ah yes, Let's get over missing the latest movie release, or crying because we can't afford the latest electronic doo-dad, lets start pulling together and getting over the pride that makes us forget that we are able to carpool to work with a friend from work, or go to the thrift store and find new school clothes for our children. Oh we will survive, and we may be a bit happier, if we recognize that having the biggest and best is not a fun way to live. Let's avenge the recession with a little humility.

    • 2 votes
    #1.13 - Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:12 AM EST
    Reply
    Mad Matt

    I think that Americans are finally waking up to the idea that they are being "serviced" to death.  Think about how much money the average family pays for transient, intangible services instead of hard, durable assets that retain some level of value.  condos, concerts, lattes, cable, phone, internet, security, lawn, babysitting, etc. etc. etc.  Its simply ridiculous.

    In the last 100 years our economy has morphed into a service-based economy that results in money spent with nothing tangible to show for it.    I imagine a day when we will all be giving our heirs a list of service contracts in our wills when we die.

    -M

    • 9 votes
    Reply#2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:57 AM EST
    LU-404506

    Someone mentioned that the professional sports stadiums are empty because tickets are $150 each and no one can afford to go.

    Maybe they need to re-think the $10 million a year salaries for the players.

    • 13 votes
    #2.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:17 PM EST
    Tad-401841

    Inflation also has a part in it too besides the greed and selfishness. Think about it, a  movie ticket in the 1950s was about 25 cents, what is it today? A 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air 2 dr Sports Coup was about $$1500, we pay more than that in taxes alone on a new vehicle now.

    • 1 vote
    #2.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:08 PM EST
    Calvin Tang

    Someone mentioned that the professional sports stadiums are empty because tickets are $150 each and no one can afford to go.

    I was at the Seahawks game yesterday and attendance seemed as high as ever (capacity ~68,000), despite even our terrible string of losses this season.

    • 1 vote
    #2.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:42 PM EST
    Juan-583296

    If they can do it good for them, but don't come complaining you don't have any money to heat your home this winter.

    • 1 vote
    #2.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:56 PM EST
    DaughterRevWar

    Calvin, that's amazing that they still had that much extra credit, on there Credit Cards.  I bet they put it on Citi Card.  He  ha!!  Won't be anybody there to collect the bill....get it!!!  Sorry really bad joke. 

    But, this time I agree with LU.  And that's a first!!!  Do you realize that our society is fashioned from Ancient Athens & Rome.  The athelits were paid the most.  And during Rome's peak they traded predominately with India & China.

    Does it sound like history is repeating itself???

    • 3 votes
    #2.5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:58 PM EST
    Auzziegirl

    Daughter, I'm not sure what you wrote, but, no, it does not "sound" like history is repeating itself! 

      #2.6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:25 PM EST
      M. WHITE BEAR

      Auzziegirl

      Daughter, I'm not sure what you wrote, but, no, it does not "sound" like history is repeating itself! 

      It is simple, go to the market, buy some tinfoil, make a hat. That will stop the subliminal messages from the Martians. It will also enable you to comprehend his message. wink,wink 

      • 3 votes
      #2.7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:41 PM EST
      DaughterRevWar

      I'm sorry if that didn't make sense.  I forget most people are not history buffs.  No Auzziegirl, history is repeating itself.  Exactly the same.  Right down to high taxes,  land & farms were bought up by foreign investors, trade was at its highest with India & China, the athlete's were the highest paid in the Roman society, even homosexuality became a problem along with all the wounded mercenary soldiers  that became a burden on their society.   They let in outside cultures & people along with religous cults, that became a problem  People stopped having children.  They couldn't afford the taxes.  If you had a job, you were forced to keep it, to pay more taxes.  Then food went sky high.  Plus all the wars.  It's the same.  They laster 400 years.  We are 400 years old, as of 2008.   

      • 2 votes
      #2.8 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:57 PM EST
      BRAD-285503

      calvin.........those tickets are mostly all sold out before the season is started.... just an fyi

        #2.9 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:05 PM EST
        M. WHITE BEAR

        DaughterRevWar

        I'm sorry if that didn't make sense.  I forget most people are not history buffs.  No Auzziegirl, history is repeating itself.  Exactly the same.  Right down to high taxes,  land & farms were bought up by foreign investors, trade was at its highest with India & China, the athlete's were the highest paid in the Roman society, even homosexuality became a problem along with all the wounded mercenary soldiers  that became a burden on their society.   They let in outside cultures & people along with religous cults, that became a problem  People stopped having children.  They couldn't afford the taxes.  If you had a job, you were forced to keep it, to pay more taxes.  Then food went sky high.  Plus all the wars.  It's the same.  They laster 400 years.  We are 400 years old, as of 2008.  

        Even thought you changed your moniker, we still know who you are. And guess what your comments still make NO SENSE. Even worse you make up stories, which are, well, plain stupid.

        • 2 votes
        #2.10 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:39 PM EST
        LU-404506

        whitebear:  Most of us have "the daughter" on "ignore author" because we've seen her wac-o blogs too many times.

        I almost commemorate you that you continue to try to communicate with the mentally ill, but please don't re-print it. 

        They're like drug addicts.  I know they're out there, but I don't want to be around them.

          #2.11 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:52 PM EST
          case1

          LU, please do ME a favor.  Do not compare drug addicts with people suffering from mental illnesses.  Nobody chooses to be "mentally ill".

            #2.12 - Mon Dec 1, 2008 8:42 PM EST
            Reply
            Greg-348307

            i never bought starbucks or gambled anyway.  I think in my entire life I could say i've had less than 10 cups of coffee from starbucks

            • 3 votes
            Reply#3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:14 AM EST
            Lee Lewis-731023

            I had one starbucks, worst decalf I ever had, cutting out eating out to a couple of times a week, don't gamble, don't fly any place, take week end vacations instead of a week or two. etc.

            Lee

            • 1 vote
            #3.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:00 PM EST
            LU-404506

            I had a starbucks addiction for awhile; but I kicked the habit a few years back.

            I live in Vegas just a few blocks from the casinos and never gamble.  If I lose $5.00 I'm annoyed at myself for a week.

            • 2 votes
            #3.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:19 PM EST
            Calvin Tang

            I don't drink coffee, but some friends who do say that Starbucks coffee tastes burnt.  I like their breakfast sandwiches, but I heard that they're phasing these out.  At least they still have Top Pot doughnuts.  

            • 2 votes
            #3.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:43 PM EST
            logdump

            1 was enough to lose me.

              #3.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:52 PM EST
              daylily

              Two words: Krispy Kreme. Okay, make that three: Krispy Kreme coffee. Hot, fresh, cheap and, paired with a glazed doghnut, enough caffeine and sugar to make you twirl all morning. By the way, I have given up sushi. I can't see paying $3 for a tiny morsel of food anymore.

                #3.5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:16 PM EST
                M. WHITE BEAR

                Calvin Tang

                I don't drink coffee, but some friends who do say that Starbucks coffee tastes burnt.  I like their breakfast sandwiches, but I heard that they're phasing these out.  At least they still have Top Pot doughnuts.

                Calvin, move East so ya can go to Dunkin Donuts. People think foreigners come to America for the money and freedom, no way, they come for Dunkin Donuts, eh. wink, wink

                • 1 vote
                #3.6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:47 PM EST
                Mike-290712

                Starbucks is overrated anyway.  McDonald's has way better coffee and it's cheaper.  I don't get the Egg McMuffin.  Just the coffee.

                M White Bear - you're right.  Dunkin' Donuts has great coffee too.

                • 1 vote
                #3.7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:10 PM EST
                M. WHITE BEAR

                Mike-290712

                Starbucks is overrated anyway.  McDonald's has way better coffee and it's cheaper.  I don't get the Egg McMuffin.  Just the coffee.

                M White Bear - you're right.  Dunkin' Donuts has great coffee too

                You betcha, Michael

                • 1 vote
                #3.8 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:41 PM EST
                rob-365631

                first of all why is coffee 4 dollars a cup? Lower it to 2 dollars a cup and even a 1.50 and you keep people at work at the same time sell your product. Some questions need to be asked how does starbucks stay alive when they sell high on their coffee? I buy at Tim Hortons everyday and for a large cup i pay 1.75. It might not be starbucks but at least it gets me my caffeine.

                • 1 vote
                #3.9 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:49 PM EST
                Commonsense-545576

                McDonald's coffee is hot. Real hot. So hot I could burn myself if I rode around in the car with it sitting in my lap! Now there's an idea!....that's why it's not hot anymore. One of the many progresses we've made in our society, cold coffee.

                  #3.10 - Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:28 AM EST
                  Reply
                  Cindy -730974

                  I'd like to just state the obvious, We the People are in this situation due to the fact that the Corporate America were gluttons, Instead of giving the money to the corps, by bailing out the corps won't help the situation, The corps depend on US (Americans), We make the economy, Therefore the 700 billion should be distributed out to all working American citizens, afther all, it is our tax dollars that we contribute, This way all angles will be covered, it gives Americans a chance to get out of debt , and prevent jobs from being lost, I truly believe that the economy will bounce back , because American citizens count ,we make the corps who they are. Without our money the will fail, By giving the corps the money, sure it may give them a push alittle longer and shortly they will fall when they realize the working Americans make them who they are. why bail out the banks that Robbed many citizens they, should fall, for an example take a look at AIG, they hada grand ole time with our tax dollars that many Americans worked really hard for , some of us never had such lavish vacations. I don't get it! I'd say about 2 million per working American household. I don't care if you work minimum wage, You're working you deserve it, Before a greedy corporation.

                  • 13 votes
                  Reply#4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:18 AM EST
                  James Adamson

                  If they handed out 2 mil. per family, they would simply raise the price of bread to $1000 per loaf. And so on, and so on, and so on.

                  • 5 votes
                  #4.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:47 AM EST
                  doctor invincibilis

                  if only it were our tax dollars. but it's not. it's borrowed, non-existent dollars. if you must see it as tax dollars, it's your kids' tax dollars, and their kids'. a big part of the problem is that we have been lead by a moron for the past 8 years, who told us that we didn't have to pay taxes. and we ate it up. re-elected the idiot because he told us what we wanted to hear. americans pay some of the lowest taxes in the developed world and we still bitch. walt kelly's character pogo said it years ago. 'we have met the enemy and he is us.'

                  • 10 votes
                  #4.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:11 PM EST
                  TexanForObama

                  Nice idea, but impractical - also your math is off.  If you gave $2M per household, that is only 350K homes...

                    #4.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:24 PM EST
                    njba

                    "We the People" have allowed ourselves to be treated this way. We have the ability to speak up and be heard, but for many, the choice has been to give up and let someone else take the lead.  I don't need a handout. I have been through tough times before and know I can do it again. My friends and family support each other by sharing what we have, and don't need the government to bail us out. It's funny that the government keeps talking about the sacrifices we should be proud to make as Americans, but refuse to make those same sacrifices themselves.  We are all in this together. We stand or fall...TOGETHER!

                      #4.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:35 PM EST
                      pooronalivingwage-627512

                      I agree, Doc! 

                      Besides, it is pretty bad when people can't afford to gamble (throw their money away).

                        #4.5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:11 PM EST
                        goldfish4obamaDeleted
                        Jake-488375

                        Cindy, I agree that without the consumers there would be no economy, but what has driven the economy for the last 7 years.  Credit.  Money that was not ours.  Cash in on your house, credit cards, lines of credit.  That was the engine.  Now that these banks realized they were stupid to loan everyone so much money our economy has stalled.  Until Americans can start saving and using that to buy our economy will continue to stall.

                        • 4 votes
                        #4.7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:45 PM EST
                        Right is Right-533961

                        Huge amounts of money are impossible to acquire if constained by the limits of morality and ethics.  As most people are thus constrained, the economy functions.  Thus we invent the corporations that are not so constrained because no one person is really responsible.  We may point to a CEO, but if that CEO fails to acquire huge profits, he is simple replaced and the corporation continues unaffected.  Immoral and unethical practices do eventually take their toll as we are now experiencing the result of the fast buck over prudent business planning.  Sure the auto manufacturers could have made a vehicle whose quality and fuel efficiency would compete with foreign compeditors ten years ago; but, the fast buck was to sell big cars now and let the next CEO worry about the lack of prudent business planning.  I don't believe that bailing out the CEO caught holding the bag is the answer. 

                        One solution is to devise a way that corporations would feel the same moral and ethical pains a citizen would for their decisions.  Bail outs do just the opposite!  If the auto manufacturers of America were held responsible for their decisions, some will probably close; but, the need for fuel efficient and quality cars would actual increase as less people could afford Detroit's gas gusslers.  More auto workers would be required in efficient and quality car manufacturing.  These American made cars might even be able to compete in the world market thus requiring even more American auto workers.  This shows that while auto manufacturing bail outs may be a boon for the Corporations, they could actually hurt the American auto worker!  Who is more dewserving of help - the immoral, unnethical Corporation or the struggling American auto worker?

                        • 1 vote
                        #4.8 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:47 PM EST
                        mbtw

                        Agreed!  If every adult in the USA got a couple million it would be  a much greater overall stimulus. First off, we'd pay taxes on it, then we'd likely pay off our mortgages and any ancillary debt.  It would position everyone to save, invest and enrich OUR country for a change!  What a novel concept.  Heck, we might even be able to almost, maybe, perhaps think about affording health insurance!

                        • 1 vote
                        #4.9 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:32 PM EST
                        RogerM

                        Hey doc, the guy "who told us that we didn't have to pay taxes" actually had more income taxes raised than there ever was under Clinton's high tax rates and will ever be raised under Obama's tax plan.

                        Why? Because there jobs created!!!  If a company or owner doesn't have to pay high taxes he can actually hire people. And the more people that work, the more taxes raised!!  Wow, simple math!!   Too complicated for you apparently.

                        And when did the economoy go into the dumper, why in the last 18 months. But of course it has to be Bush's fault right? It couldn't actually have been helped by Barney Frank telling Fanny to give sub-prime while his boyfriend was an executive there. Or his committee attacking a regulator as racist when that regulator pointed out that Fanny was cooking the books under Raines. It couldn't be because Dodd blocked ALL REGULATION of the lending industry after Clinton signed the bill deregulating them. It couldn't be because Carter signed CRA, which all but forced banks to lend money to people that couldn't afford to pay. No, it couldn't be any of that. It was all about Bush.

                        Why don't you Bush haters get over it and check your facts BEFORE you rant???????

                          #4.10 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:13 PM EST
                          TheMathKing

                          Cindy, I think the thing that you missed, is that corperations depend on people from any country, not just the US. If the US is not a profitable place to make buisness and suck it's people dry of their money, they will go do that somewhere else. This would decrease our stocks and increase the other country's, effectively giving the other country more power, and robbing us of ours. We need a supple group of consumers who aren't too smart\creative to draw money from in our country to succeed if we want a democracy. Any criticism to this idea?

                          • 1 vote
                          #4.11 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:35 PM EST
                          Reply
                          dying desert

                          Don't worry about lattes and coffee!!

                          By this time next year we will all be standing in line for an apple.

                          Prepare for the worst, because it is coming!

                          • 12 votes
                          Reply#5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:00 PM EST
                          sneilarreal

                          If you have apples....you should hide & store them up now.

                          • 7 votes
                          #5.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:02 PM EST
                          LU-404506

                          People in the US really don't have to worry about food because we grow it here in this country.

                          Part of the G20 agreement was to agree to keep open trade between the nations, but Russia has already raised their tariffs on imports.  Their theory is that "they're not breaking any laws."

                          We should do the same.

                          • 2 votes
                          #5.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:23 PM EST
                          sneilarreal

                          Yes, we grow things here but we also import a lot of food stuffs and machinery and parts for farm implements.

                          I grew up on a farm and I know how to till the soil etc. but unfortunately most people today, do not know how to plant and harvest.

                          If things get really bad and society breaks down...the people who are self sufficient will probably fare better.

                          But...we will have to see what happens.

                          • 7 votes
                          #5.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:23 PM EST
                          sneilarreal

                          Just one more thought....I for one, am not waiting to see what happens. When 'it' hits the proverbial 'fan' the prepared fare best.

                          • 2 votes
                          #5.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:32 PM EST
                          goldfish4obamaDeleted
                          Desertgirl

                          Then buy yourself an apple tree (dwarf or otherwise). That way you can sell apples this time next year. Or you can just save them all for yourself.

                            #5.6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:41 PM EST
                            Reply
                            sneilarreal

                            The governments can come in and 'bailout' all and any they wish too but it is only a small and short term fix....more psychological than anything. Nothing is recession proof at this point in the game and it is going to be a long game.

                            • 3 votes
                            Reply#6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:05 PM EST
                            smitty-392033

                            we are cutting everywhere to pay off those credit cards once and for all.  It's all of our debt and we need to get rid of it!!!!  Do something america--budget!!

                            • 5 votes
                            Reply#7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:07 PM EST
                            Peanut Santiago

                            I have always lived within my means or slightly below...and I am only working class with a smaller income.

                            I own a paid for modest home and have no debt. The only debt I have ever had has been a fixed rate mortgage and maybe 6 times I bought something needed on credit and paid it off ahead of time (like fix a roof or buy a refrigerator).

                            Of course I am suffering like everybody else. My adult nephew who lives with me was just let go at work. Things are tight. However, without debt my son, nephew, and I should (hopefully) hang in there.

                            What got us (America) in trouble? Easy credit and entitlement for the masses... Deregulation and all kinds of weird inventions on Wall Street and in Banks. Weirdo ideas like tranches, derivatives, short sales, option ARMS....

                            We (all of us) need to go back to basics. Buy houses with 20% and fixed rate mortgages. Go easy on the credit. Get rid of the worst abuses (like tranches) of Wall Street. Make banks have a higher amount of cash on hand. Reregulation will NOT kill the free market...just stop much of the abuse!

                            We will see.....if we have learned our (collective) lesson!

                            • 4 votes
                            #7.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:58 PM EST
                            Peanut Santiago

                            I am talking about short sales on stocks.
                            That should be 20% down payment.

                              #7.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:10 PM EST
                              Reply
                              Optomyst-

                              Basically, though, we are paying for our own greed and over-extention of our credit.  People are paying off items on a credit card which have already worn out.  People have a 60 month car payment agreement...............will the car still be viable in 5 years?  Not if it is an American car.  We have mortgaged ourselves to the hilt and now wonder why we have no money.  I would like to think it is a valuable lesson, but somehow I doubt it.  Many will tighten their belts and survive, but the very minute times get good again, off they will go on a spending spree of unprecidented magnitude, feeling that they are entitled to it because they have been "deprived" for so long. 

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#8 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:10 PM EST
                              Tad-401841

                              Yes, it is true that we have been over spending and over borrowing but with generous help from banks and lenders encouraging much too loose credit, enticing and creative loans and to easy to get credit cards. It works both ways.

                              • 2 votes
                              #8.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:06 PM EST
                              Peanut Santiago

                              Tad is soooo right. He hit the nail on the head.

                                #8.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:14 PM EST
                                Reply
                                LU-404506

                                In Nevada 85% of the government's budget comes from the casinos.

                                Nevada needs to legalize gay marriage - at least in Vegas.

                                We need the revenue.

                                • 2 votes
                                Reply#9 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:15 PM EST
                                DaughterRevWar

                                Lu, don't start that gay stuff again.  Please!  Las Vegas could vanish off the face of this earth, during all of this.  You don't have food.  You don't have water.  All you have is smutt & gambling.  I know, I grew up there.  Oh!  Sorry about your husband.  I wanted to tell you that.  I heard you the other day.  Just couldn't back to you.  Sorry.

                                  #9.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:07 PM EST
                                  Tad-401841

                                  The voting  in Veges is done and the majority has spoken against same sex marriage. The revenues will have to come from elsewhere.

                                    #9.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:08 PM EST
                                    DaughterRevWar

                                    Tad, I think you'll get some revenue from gun sales.  Just like most of the states.  

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #9.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:47 PM EST
                                    DrowningGrover

                                    Vegas will die simply because the casino's will not be able to pay their energy bills to keep the places air conditioned in the future.  No one will fly to a place where they can throw their money down a pit in 115 degree heat...

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #9.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:21 PM EST
                                    Peanut Santiago

                                    rotflmao............ (capital letters were considered yelling)

                                      #9.5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:16 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      will.i.am

                                      This is where I've had to cut back. I am not buying coffee at premium outlets, instead buying Dunkin Donuts and McDonalds coffee. I cancelled cable a year ago. Cable is a really bad product. Too many commercials, sometimes a half hour long and too expensive. I've cut back on alcohol consumption. I pack a lunch for work. And very rarely do I go out to eat at a restaurant. Maybe once a month. Life sucks now.

                                        Reply#10 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:18 PM EST
                                        TigerGuardian

                                        Every Starbucks I pass are still crowded especially in the AM.   Bars are also always packed too.   That said I do not think any industry is recession proof. People may still need certain industries such as groceries but they will buy less or only buy as needed.   Americans have no middle ground. They either live to excess or panic.

                                        • 6 votes
                                        Reply#11 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:24 PM EST
                                        Amanda-358131

                                        Yeah, you don't really see any evidence of the recession around here. Bars, restaurants, Starbucks...all as busy as ever.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #11.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:30 PM EST
                                        Desertgirl

                                        In my totally unscientific opinion based on nothing but a mere hunch, I think the "state of the nation" is really exaggerated by the media. That being said, I know some people out there are really struggling and some regions are really struggling (but have been for decades long before Bush or even Clinton showed up.)

                                        MOST people seem to be doing just fine, maybe have cut back on eating out or Starbucks or cable, but they still have a job, a roof over their heads, and food on the table.

                                        Much of it is just a media created crisis.  I say ignore it and focus on your own situation.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #11.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:46 PM EST
                                        Reply
                                        jasonhad

                                        The web brings better news coverage than TV, Netflix is better value than cable movies, internet telephone better value than AT&T, so: Cable goes, Long Distance goes, Cell Phone goes (replaced by TracFone), gambling is for suckers, Starbucks for the foolish, and viola! Our savings account is growing, my wallet feels fatter, and although the value of the house ain't what it used to be, it's more than what I paid for it, less than the tax-dexuctible mortgage, and we're happy in it. We even talk together more as a family around the dinner table because we "dine" less at Micky D's, Burgerword or Applepie. Rough it may be, but it could really be a loat worse.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        Reply#12 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:33 PM EST
                                        MikeInIndy

                                        I'm cutting everywhere, except 401k and other savings, which I've increased. That means I'm staying at home more, but I have more than enough to keep me busy and happy there.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        Reply#13 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:33 PM EST
                                        Tad-401841

                                        Same here and since I sold my home in 2004 I've been  renting and saving more than I ever have while owning a home.

                                        I will not buy another home until I am sure the housing market has stabilized and the banks stop playing their current  high interest and high down payment game. They can keep their loans and I can wait as long as it takes if necessary.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #13.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:15 PM EST
                                        Reply
                                        will.i.am

                                        I go to Dunkin Donuts and Mc Donalds for coffee now, instead of Starbucks.  Cable was shut off last summer.  I have reduced spending on alcohol.  I don't go out to eat anymore.  This really sucks.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        Reply#14 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:41 PM EST
                                        John from Texas-731200

                                        Keep a stiff upper lip.  “Everything in moderation” is what my parents always told me.  Some of the things you give up may not bother you. In that case you never really needed (or wanted) them.  My wife and I like to gamble and drink, we make plans to go twice a year instead of every month and it makes it more special and something to look forward to.  We gave up smoking three years ago which helped my pocketbook and health.  Keep your chin up!

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #14.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:30 PM EST
                                        MeanMom-701859

                                        I recently put my cell phone on temp-deact. I never really used it anyway. There's a phone at my desk and another at home. My daughter is griping about not being able to text, but she should be paying attention to her school work and chores anyway. Hmm, parenting has gotten a little easier & now I have an extra $120 a month and don't miss anything.

                                          #14.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:46 PM EST
                                          M. WHITE BEAR

                                          will.i.am

                                          I go to Dunkin Donuts and Mc Donalds for coffee now, instead of Starbucks.  Cable was shut off last summer.  I have reduced spending on alcohol.  I don't go out to eat anymore.  This really sucks.

                                          I'll give up my DD, when they pry the cup from my cold dead hand, wink,wink.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #14.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:09 PM EST
                                          kaviaq

                                          I don't feel terribly deprived by not going out to eat.  I go to the movies maybe twice a year, buy clothes on clearance, etc.  I have co-workers in their 20's who complain all the time that they are broke, but they drive brand new cars, have expensive clothes and go out all the time...so I'm not sure why they are surprised.  I make my coffee at home (though I do buy the beans from Dunkin Donuts) and pack a lunch every day.  I've been living cheap for so long that I'm used to it.  I also make great use of the public library (I used to spend a ton on books) for not only books but DVDs and audiobooks.  I seem to be much happier than my 20 something co-workers, so I guess I'm on to something.

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #14.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:25 PM EST
                                          Desertgirl

                                          Do you have food to eat?

                                          A place to live?

                                          A reasonably secure income?

                                          If yes, show some gratitude for what you have.

                                          kaviaq wrote:

                                            I seem to be much happier than my 20 something co-workers, so I guess I'm on to something.

                                          I know what you mean. I call it the principle of "the less you have the more you gain" principle.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #14.5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:47 PM EST
                                          Peanut Santiago

                                          I enjoy my lifestyle.

                                          f I have coffee out once in a while...it is usually a little over a dollar with tax. I used to have a Starbucks by my doctor and I enjoyed a $2 drink once every couple of months (however, it closed).

                                          I have my internet...my son is a "computer genius" who keeps everything working. My son and nephew just love video games. We do keep basic cable.

                                          I get most of my clothes and some for the "boys" at garage sales and flea markets. I also buy plenty of used books. Craigslist is good for used stuff and so are second hand stores like the Salvation Army.

                                          I enjoy buying something in relatively good shape (like furniture)...and fixing it or painting it. Nothing hard...just a small amount of work to make the item look great.

                                          I enjoy reading, walking, buying pizza (personal size $5) or Chinese food ($5 meal for lunch), and a ride in somebody's car. Maybe ONE drink every once in a while at the local bar....(usually a soda...I can't really drink).

                                          I AM grateful for what I have and what I CAN enjoy even now. Peace people.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #14.6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:34 PM EST
                                          Peanut Santiago

                                          My son and I do most of the work around the house....cut the grass....do basic electrical work (like install a fan or light switch)....install a sink....paint....fix the plumbing....keep our computers running...usually cut our own hair....

                                          We only use "outside help" when necessary.

                                          We trade jobs with friends and neighbors.

                                          We get our cats rabies shots cheap at Animal Control (shelter).

                                          We do this in good times and bad!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #14.7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:39 PM EST
                                          Reply
                                          teamalva-731089

                                          The recession has woken us up to our over-indulgences.  Unfortunately, too much of the economy was based of of our discretionary spending.  The Family is working hard to evaluate when and how we spend money and are trying to do so wisely.  If we can save $100/month by taking our lunch to work more, buying less pay per views, cooking at home with leftovers for the week instead of dining out for when time is scarce, switching cable carriers, etc, we save money and don't even give up that much.  And how about paying our bills?  Although I work hard not to fall into this, too many of my generation (30-40 somethings) love "buy now and pay later."  Well, I think we are learning that later is now and we better get our act together.

                                            Reply#15 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:50 PM EST
                                            Becky-601232

                                            I don't go the the movies anymore, can't afford it.  I don't have cable, I'm on antenna.  I take small, weekend trips to friends or relatives where I can stay with them.  I drive a lot less, never did eat out a lot.  Owned 1 credit card years ago and learned a valuable lesson.  I paid it off and cut it up.  I never want another one.  I'm cutting back at the grocery store by buying cheaper cuts of meat and generics when possible.  I shop at thrift stores and second hand shops.  But, I've always lived pretty frugally so this really isn't much of a change for me.

                                              Reply#16 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:57 PM EST
                                              Common Sense-731100

                                              We have always lived below our means and saved for scarce times.  We learned by example from our parents who lived through the 30's depression.   We are growing more of our own food and sharing it with friends and family.

                                              • 4 votes
                                              Reply#17 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:57 PM EST
                                              Common Sense-731100

                                              We have always lived below our means and saved for scarce times.  We learned by example from our parents who lived through the 30's Depression.  We are growing more of our own food and sharing it with family and friends.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#18 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:59 PM EST
                                              Greg-281912

                                              Common, me too, I have always lived beneath my means.

                                              When I was a child, going out to eat at a restaurant was a huge treat, a big event!  We went out maybe once a month.  Today, I could go out and eat every meal, but I don't.  I eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I eat a lot of oatmeal for breakfast. 

                                              I tried once to own a home, but the utilities and taxes were simply ridiculous, so I rent a very small but comfortable apartment.

                                              It's very very rewarding to live simply. 

                                              • 8 votes
                                              #18.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:22 PM EST
                                              Rascal-595481

                                              It's called self-control. We are a very rare breed.

                                              • 6 votes
                                              #18.2 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:28 PM EST
                                              Greg-281912

                                              Rascal, true, it's called self-control.  And, that is within everyone's realm.

                                              And it's really not that hard.  It's much much easier to live simply and cheaply than to toss and turn all night worrying about debt.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #18.3 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:28 PM EST
                                              crazy cajun

                                              I too am trying to get back to basics, selling my house, buying a cheaper one. Got enough farm equipment to plant plenty food crops. May have to do a little bartering down the road.

                                                #18.4 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:52 PM EST
                                                Greg-281912

                                                I found that the monthly taxes, utilities, and maintenance on my house cost more than the monthly mortgage, so that's why I now live in a small apartment.  (I can ice my entire apartment down, in summer months, ro $50 or so a month and then maybe $10 a month in the winter for heat!)

                                                And, I get ONE utility bill a month for everything!  So simple!

                                                And, when I downsized to a small apartment, I found out I didn't need all that STUFF which had to be cleaned, maintained, etc!

                                                Give me the simple life!

                                                  #18.5 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:07 PM EST
                                                  Amanda-358131

                                                  I've always lived way below my means, too. My husband, too. I have to constantly remind him we're not in grad school anymore, so we can afford to live a little larger, but I do enjoy being frugal. Just not as frugal as he seems to want to be. LOL!

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #18.6 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:33 PM EST
                                                  Greg-281912

                                                  Amanda, funny you should mention grad school.  I know a lot of people with advanced degrees (Doctors, lawyers, etc), and I myself have an MBA.

                                                  In general, in my neck of the woods, the higher the education, the more frugal the person lives.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #18.7 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:37 PM EST
                                                  Amanda-358131

                                                  Greg, I'm an attorney, as is my hubster. He also has a PhD, so he was in school on a nearly constant basis for a very long time.

                                                  No seriously, our standard of living has WAAAY improved since law school, but we still do live frugally compared to what we could afford. I definitely attribute it to the years of living off of ramen.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #18.8 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:00 PM EST
                                                  Desertgirl

                                                  Rascal: self-control?

                                                  Really? In THIS country? Isn't that like a banned word?

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #18.9 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:50 PM EST
                                                  Peanut Santiago

                                                  I am another person with self-control. However, I have a small income. I once had my own (tiny) business...but had to (unwillingly) go on disability due to illness.

                                                  I do own a working class home...BUT it is paid for...and my expenses (utilities plus repairs and taxes, etc.) are probably the same or lower than an apartment the same size. I do have my adult son and nephew with me and WE do enjoy having a house.

                                                  I LOVE living a simple, modest lifestyle!

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #18.10 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:46 PM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  steve48

                                                  For us it isn't really a matter of cutting back. It's becoming a matter of meeting the bills without totally depleting our meager savings.  We are locked into a budget for oil, and now oil prices are falling. Will the oil co. recalculate our budget? Maybe. The one 'luxury' we might change is to drop our broadband connection through the phone co. and see if we can get broadband cheaper elsewhere. That's our only 'luxury'. We fortunately don't have "a portfolio", so the rubber band that is the market doesn't directly hit us. We are both 'retired' on disabilities, and have pretty much decided that, even though our disabilities limit us to what we can do jobwise and financially, it's time to bring in extra income. Now, the job will be to find part time jobs. It's the holiday shopping season.....or it used to be.....so seasonal work might be available, even in an area where the recession started long before the national media and government (oh, ya, there was a President to elect, couldn't acknowledge it even in the face of the obvious) acknowledged it!

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  Reply#19 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:07 PM EST
                                                  Jeanette-451127

                                                  Steve,

                                                  Try the tax preparation field, for part-tome work.  I work with HR Block every year and the extra money earned doing taxes help during the rest of the year.  It is possible to gain and extra 6 to 10 thousand dollars in 4 months, depending on where you live.  The tax season is approaching and more people than every will be trying to get their money early.  I also live very modestly.  I'm an operations manager with a non-profit company.  They pay me really well, but when I got laid off from my longtime employer a few years back, I started working with Block to assist with cash flow until I found full time employment.  I found another good paying opportunity but the money was so good at Block and easy to make that I just kept on working with them.  Now I just save all the extra and splurge in the summer for vacation.

                                                  With the economy moving like a turtle, I won't be splurging this summer just saving.  We have three ladies in our HR Block office who have about 600 to 800 clients every tax season.  These ladies only work 4 months out of a year.  They have enough in commission money to carry them through the year ( along with their husbands).

                                                    #19.1 - Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:31 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    Lori from Michigan

                                                    Eating lunch IN more, less take out.  Cutting back on the type of cell phone plan I have.  The thing is, I never gambled (I find it boring anyway) and never really indulged too much, but those little things can get BIG very fast.  I  plan to budget better, watch my spending more, and hope and pray all those Wall Street fat cats lose their jobs.  They don't deserve to work (or whatever it is they do).

                                                      Reply#20 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:10 PM EST
                                                      Allie-731117

                                                      I agree with TigerGuardian who said, "Americans have no middle ground. They either live to excess or panic." Remember the whole Y2K buzz? Some people prepared for it by storing food, water, even a little extra cash. Well, nothing happened, so there was no need to keep a nice little safety net, right? I mean, why prepare for a rainy day when there were large cars that could be financed for 60 months, homes that many buyers surely knew they really couldn't afford (but lending institutions financed mortgages, so it's the buyers shouldn't be blamed, naturally), designer coffee shops with enticing advertising, newer and faster computers, cooler cell-phones available, etc..

                                                      There is not one particular person or industry that solely deserves the censure for our current economic mess. When my kids are yelling at each other and casting fault (generally, one is initially at fault, but it doesn't take much to get both kids equally involved in the problem persisting) and begging for my intervention, yeah, I do what I can to restore order, but when it keeps happening, I get to the point where I say (okay, I yell, "It doesn't matter who started it. You're both involved now and you both have to fix the problem. Let's figure what we all need to do." Isn't it time we stop pointing blame and start determining what we can do to help solve the problem? It might be as simple (and as difficult) as admitting we might actually shoulder a little of the blame.

                                                      • 4 votes
                                                      Reply#21 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:16 PM EST
                                                      Askari

                                                      The biggest and best cuts could come from the people in another manner.  One thing I have never understood is how we (working class) let deductions be taken out of our paychecks before we even get them and not demand some kind of receipt for them.  I would love for the American public to have control over what their taxes are being used for above and beyond the services that the government provides via public works, etc.  If people were given the opportunity to at least see all the ridiculous, wasteful pork spending that is perpetrated by congress when the federal budget is developed, they would no longer pay income tax until MASSIVE reforms and cuts were made.

                                                      The sad fact is that our economy is based on credit instead of resources and that has been done intentionally.  Woodrow Wilson greatly weakened our country when he signed over the one right for which the American Revolution was mainly fought - The government's power to coin its own money and issue credit - to the Federal Reserve in 1913.  In 1971, Richard Nixon unhooked the dollar from the gold standard which further weakened our country and its currency by not having resources to back it up.  When Bill Clinton and congress unanimously passed the Commodities Futures Modernization Act in 2000 which dismantled deregulation of investment and loan banking practices and allowed the credit derivatives/default swaps market (side-betting had been illegal for nearly 100 years because this practice crashed the stock market in 1907) to flourish and destroy the global economy, we enjoyed a "seeming" period of prosperity.  Now the chickens have come home to roost on the backs of the working class.

                                                      Yes, we ALL need to restructure our spending habits because many of the things that we buy are NOT a necessity.  However, until we break the spell of media and corporations telling us to spend stupendous amounts of money on luxury, brand name products and services to make us feel good, we will continue wasting our resources buying products that have no real, intrinsic value.  There is a whole psychology being used to keep us as consumers instead of informed citizens and we have to be disciplined and wise enough to see through the economic enslavement being perpetrated by our government and corporations alike.

                                                      When do we experience true freedom?  When we start gaining control of how our tax money is being spent.  Your taxes should have more leveraging power over congress than the big business/special interest lobby money currently possesses.  Tighten your belt but tighten the reins of congress even more who are all millionaires thanks to the perpetual stream of bribes (campaign contributions) that keep them from listening to their constituencies and doing things that are beneficial for the people who vote them into office.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      Reply#22 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:16 PM EST
                                                      smrtcookie04

                                                      You are so right, Askari.  We have allowed ourselves to be manipulated by the government and by their media propagandists to BELIEVE we are not PERSONS and CITIZENS, but taxpayers and consumers.

                                                      In accepting these labels to describe ourselves, we have accepted the terms of these lablels.  Now that's psychology!

                                                      Let's turn them on their ears!

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #22.1 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:22 PM EST
                                                      Danny-597166Deleted
                                                      Reply
                                                      Miz_Kriz

                                                      Things that I have cut out or cut back on:
                                                      -Cigarettes
                                                      -Alcohol
                                                      -Clothes shopping
                                                      -Impulse buying

                                                      Things that I have not cut out or won't cut out:
                                                      -Gym membership
                                                      -Buying fresh produce at the grocery store
                                                      -Satellite TV w/ DVR

                                                      This combination of things is hopefully making me healthier and less likely to go to the doctor or get sick this winter.  The TV w/ DVR helps me from spending money at the movies.  It is split with a roommate and costs about the price of one movie ticket and concession stand purchase. 

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      Reply#23 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:18 PM EST
                                                      Rascal-595481

                                                      We were warned many years ago that this was on the horizon,.Gambling on real estate values has always been risky. When we bought our first home 32 years ago, we were told that your mortagage plus taxes should never be more than 33% of your income. We have survived two extended periods of unemployment in the last four years because we paid cash for our cars, did not shell out for extravagant vacations and kept money squirreled away in smaller inveatment accounts that were readily accessible. Now, our main pension account took a signifigant beating in this fiasco. Because we sincerely tried to live within our means, we are being asked to shoulder the losses entailed by those that just blew their whole wad recklessly! This country has lost its edge, its moral foundation and its place as a leader in  "the new world economy'.

                                                      • 2 votes
                                                      Reply#24 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:26 PM EST
                                                      BUBBER

                                                      The FED will not account for 2 TRILLION tax dollars. Google it.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      Reply#25 - Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:32 PM EST
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