It's North vs. South in Big Three bailout fight

The Southern States don't pay into the Federal tax system as much as they take out. 

If the Republicans try to stop this the GOP will not win in the NorthEast for two generations.

WOW. That's all we need in America. Someone from the North indicating they'd like to tear down the South.

Lets get something correct, "The car manufacturers in the South are not begging Congress for a handout". The southern manufactures have more common sense in how to run a company.

I see the Dems in 2012 saying the southerns didn't want to help the car manufactures in the North. Now that is right out of the Obama playbook.

No those manufacturers did it to the the states they are in instead, do some research on the sweet deals Alabama gave out.  Damn near paid for Hondas last plant, did pay for the training faclity, pays the trainers wages, pays the workers wages being trained.  Major tax breaks for the property and buildings. 

Nice try with the hurricane analogy.  Its bunk.  Poor business decisions do not cause hurricanes.

Lets also get something correct, the car companies in the south got a tax break to build those companies there.

Sen. Jeff Sessions, R- Ala. I dont see why my tax dollars should go to support people who live on the coastline when history repeats itself and a hurricane comes along and blows your homes away.  The same goes for California and rebuilding homes in areas prone to fire year after year either.

Your an idiot Sessions and un-American for making such a statement hell bent on dividing this country your whats wrong with America. 

I say let them drive Hyundai's...no more Chevy, Ford or Dodge Pickup trucks.  sit on your foreign auto maker laurels, don't buy American.

Besides, congress is going to do it.  so just hide a watch.

Isn't Alabama one of those states with the "REAL Americans?"

Seriously though... this is the most ridiculous argument in the book. It's like saying YOUR tax dollars shouldn't go toward public education because you already graduated from school. Or like saying that YOUR tax dollars shouldn't pay for highways because you only drive on local roads. Or hey, your taxes shouldn't pay for police because you obey the laws!

or like others said... I live in Arizona where we don't have hurricanes or tornadoes... I'd ike my tax dollars to not pay for the next hurricane or tornado in Alabama!

Juris, the analogy isn't the bunk you think it is.  While poor business decisions don't create hurricanes, they do create hard times for ordinary people.  Just like hurricanes do.

the people in detroit you are right, are ordinary labor, just like ordinary management, let them all go into chapter 11, they will never be competitive with the rest. MR nochange will likely bail them out, to pay back the vote received. thats my best assessment of the situation. detroit pays the employees far too much, and management should all be tossed,  as one pays management for their ability to plan. they didnt do that, now its time for market forces to clean up the mess thats been made by these poor economic decisions and time for america to become more competitive. remember labor and even management is just a commodity, i rest my case, there can be no argument.

I agree with Mark735227. 

However,  I think money from the bail out bill should go to any US citizen over the age of 18.  It would give the economy the push it needs, instead of giving it to these crooked banks!!!

Let them file bankruptcy, and like the article said, free them from their "legacy costs" of retirees, then reorganize.  That's the only way that it would make sense to bail them out.  My mother called this evenin from Ohio, asking if I was watching the news, as the big 3 guys were getting grilled by Congress - who asked if they came to D.C. by coach or private jet.  They admitted, private jet, and the cost at $20,000 - nice point made about waste/abuse.

The taxpayer will be stuck guaranteeing the retirees' pensions through a federal fund.  We can do it now....or do it later.  Let the big 3 file bankruptcy and TRY to save their companies, otherwise - no bailout.  GM alone is burning through $75 Million a DAY.

There are a lot of very simple solutions to a very complex problem being posted here. 

First the Unions are getting blasted for negotiating wages and benefits. Don't forget why the unions formed in the first place. It wasn't just about wages it was also about working conditions and safety. What the employees get paid is part of the overall business plan of any company. If a company decides to pay more and it fits with their pricing  and market projections so be it. If one employer in a area pays more it also tends to raise wages in other businesses or competing companies as well. Don't blame the workers.

There is one huge problem no one wants to see. That is the state of the market. There are too many cars in the US market. There simply aren't enough buyers for all the cars produced in the US market. In addition to the new cars being produced there is a glut of high quality used cars in the US. The used car market isn't what it once was. Now there are "certified" used cars with warranty's selling for far less than a similar new vehicle. Then there is the big one. Most of the cars made by the big three are made and sold in the US market. There is no demand for these vehicles outside the US. 90% of the vehicles made by Chrysler are sold in the US market. And the size of the US market can't get any bigger.

Cars designed by most of the foreign based companies are designed to be sold in multiple markets or on a per continent basis. One Toyota model has the speedometer in the middle of the dash so it can be made either left hand drive(US) or right hand drive(Japan). They aren't tied to any one market place. More important the foriegn makers have been forced to produce 'world" cars for years. You don't see too many Suburbans or Explorers on the autobahns.

The biggest culprit is the US consumer. Not all of us but most of us. We had to have huge SUVs and gas inefficient vehicles. We forgot the lesson of the first oil embargo back in the 70's. The big three offered us bigger and bigger vehicles that got worse and worse gas mileage and we bought them. Then we stopped. Worse we did everything we could to dump them when gas went above $4 a gallon. In the past when oil prices affected the auto industry the President threatend to release the strategic oil reserves. But since we are in a war that never happened. People got worried about day to day living and major purchases like cars got put off till way later.

Bottom line is one of these companies needs to go most likely Chrysler their product line is the most out of touch and engineering wise they are the biggest dinosaur. Most of the foreign makers have gotten around any tariff (and NASCAR) by setting up a plant here in the US. Mostly in states where local tax breaks and tax money was used to lure them in. If Ford and GM get smart they will by Chrysler out and kill it off The result will be two smaller but more efficient companies.

"The same goes for California and rebuilding homes in areas prone to fire year after year either" To the idiot who wrote this sentence: WE, the people from California, do not build our houses in fire prone areas. If you've ever been to Southern California, you would know how the houses are set up and built. For the fires that are occuring right now in Diamond Bar and the Valley, these were fires that were not at all close to homes. The HURRICANE category winds pushed the fire to extremes we've never seen. You are pathetic and quite frankly and idiot.

So this is what all the opposition is about. Southern Republican law makers wanting to add more jobs to their region while putting millions of others out of work. Republicans think they got their asses kicked the last two elections, just wait for whats around the corner. No wonder Richard Shelby could barely contain himself while questioning the auto heads. He's not interested in saving taxpayers money, he's only interested in fattening the state of Alabama.

Well for one thing Palin was right they are not like us. Ohio had a good shot at a Japanese plant and go undercut because of what the southern state offered and here they had trained workers ready to go. This has got to be the dumbest excuse I have ever seen. Protecting an Asian car MFG over Americans.

What will the south do without NASCAR?  They will have to stay home and drink beer in the trailer park all alone.

The press always somehow injects it's bias into it all. The is not a north-south issue. It's not a union-non-union issue. It's a pure and simple the Big 3 can't survive without economic aid and Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and everyone else can. The economic downturn is the same for everybody. Who buys the cars? We do and we're not buying Chevy, Ford or Chrysler. There's nothing else that needs to be said. They've been steadily losing market share for years and years and they've hit the wall. Is there any TV's made in this country anymore?  We CAN, but haven't matched the quality of our foreign competitors. I'll say it again. We don't buy their cars.      

I'm torn about losing all American cars, but when I think about it, I made my choice long ago.  I've been driving foreign cars for years now.  My rationale was that I was doing them a favor by forcing them to innovate to attract my business or die.  They seem to have made their choice and are facing extinction.

Mark -  Last time a hurricaine hit my state, me and my family didn't get squat from anyone. We don't look for anyone to bail us out, we help ourselves. As far as employer based healthcare, all of the foreign companies here in the south provide us better healthcare coverage than the American companies. As far as a national healthcare plan, do we really want ANY of the idiots in Washington messing with our healthcare? The European countries that have a nationalized healthcare system also have huge taxes on things like the number of doors in your house, if you have a radio in your car, or how pretty your house looks from the outside. They may be paid a higher wage, but they are charged a much bigger percentage for taxes. And yes, I have been there when in the military and work with several foreign people now.

LU - Could be that the Southern States don't pay in as much because they are less populated than the Northern States as far as a total dollar figure. Last time I checked though, the IRS didn't have different tax tables for differant states. We don't care if the GOP doesn't win the NorthEast for two generations. As far as we can tell, the NorthEast hasn't cared about us for SEVERAL generations.

  Dusty  and Jerry D Williamson - Yes, our states gave big tax breaks to these companies to build them here. Are you upset that they are here in the south, or upset that your area government didn't try the same tactic? Why wouldn't a state government give a tax break for several years if it would pay much bigger dividends in taxes on income and sales taxes.

CCARM - Are you talking about the Hyundias built here in Alabama, or the Ford, GM, and Chrysler products built in Korea, Canada, Mexico, Germany, Austalia, China, etc.? Go to msn.autos.com and pick any make and model. Click the Specs & Features tab and scroll to the bottom. You might be suprised at where many of these American autos are built.

soupMom - Yes, we are REAL Americans. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by your question, but I was born and raised here. When I joined the Marine Corps at 18 and straight out of high school, I didn't go to protect just Alabama, I went for my country and every American regardless of race, religion, or even country of origin. I wasn't suckered into joining, and knew full well what might happen. It wasn't a family tradition to join, either. Since I know enough about my country to know that the vast majority of the American ancestry isn't from this continent, maybe I shouldn't want my tax dollars to go to the California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas border to push back low paid illegal workers, earthquakes, floods or fires.

arebrown - Senators Shelby and Sessions voted against the $700 Billion bailout. I am old enough to remember the first trillion dollar national budget and remember the puplic outcry from just about everyone. In the past few months, our government (this INCLUDES the mostly Democrat Congress) has given out or authorized $25 billion for retooling our auto industry, $150 Billion plus to AIG, $700 billion to the credit industry, and now maybe another $25 to $50 billion to the auto industry to help it pay the bills. Add it up. It is almost as much as one year's ENTIRE national budget. This is why you should know WHO you vote for and not just which party they get their campaign funds from.

 Chuck - The Unions aren't getting blasted for negotiating pay and benefits, they are getting blasted for wanting and getting a lion's share of the profits and not realizing that a company can't pay it's workers without being able to put something into an account for times like this. They want their benefits, but they don't want the companies to be able to save to pay for the benefits. Yes, unions were first formed to protect workers, wether it be pay, benefits, work conditions, etc. The proplem is the unions of today. I work at a plant in Alabama. We have two unions (UAW and The Machinists) actually sueing each other because they want my union dues. If their only reason is to protect me, why are they sueing each other and not HELPING each other? Just like our last presidential election, people had their fears or bias played upon. One of the unions promises to get equal pay for the minorities and women. We all get paid the same and everyone knows the pay scale. This same union always asks if we have our pay and benefits in a contract. National labor laws will not let a company drop your pay. What the union doesn't tell you is that the union can negotiate a lower pay if you let them represent you.  They do this all the time. Ask Delphi and BF Goodrich. This union says it will save your job. What it means is that if someone from another plant that is getting closed can come to your plant and have a job. What they don't tell you is that even if you are a part of the union, the one with the least senoriaty will still lose a job, unless you want to uproot your family and move several miles to kick someone else out onto the street. the other union says "we are one of the only unions started in the south." This is true. They were started in Atlanta, GA in about 1898. what they didn't say is that four years after their formation, they moved their headquarters to Chicago and never came back until the auto industry came to the south.  I don't blame the workers. The majority of them are just hard working men and women that just want to feed and house their families and afford a few vacations or nice things every now and again. Or, at least that is all I want. 

Andy - No. Just because they oppose throwing more money away does not mean that it will bring more jobs to Alabama. Both Alabama Senators have opposed pretty much all of the bailout crap of the last few months. None of it has made it to the people it was supposed to help. The financial institutions are sitting on it, AIG is spending it on spa retreats, and these three CEOs and the UAW president are flying around in expensive corporate jets. They still haven't said where or what the money will go to and how it will be used. Or that they will not need even more billions in 6 more months. GM says that they have only enough money to last for 6 months at most, yet the amount that they reported that they would get of the loan is still no where near what they say they could get by on for the next 6 months. It is about not wanting to Give away $50 Billion more dollars to companies that in no way shape or form have said how they will pay it back or even if they will not still file for chapter 11 proceedings to write of this LOAN. In other words, the Alabama Republican lawmakers want to make sure that YOUR tax dollars are repaid back to you.

Stan W. - The big 3 are matching the quality. Just look any of their vehicles up and look at the warrenty information. My wife and I just bought a Jeep Liberty with a lifetime drivetrain warrenty.  The public has demanded better quality for years and they have responded. What I don't like is that their CEOs don't seem to be able to plan or think ahead for more than 24 hours. The government just allocated $25 billion for them to use to retool and refit their plants. But if you drive around and look at the big 3 dealerships, they have tons of vehicles. And a dealership on every corner. When I was a kid, my dad would have to drive for a couple of hours between dealerships if he wanted to compare price tags. Now within 30 minutes I can find 3 Ford dealerships and just as many Lincoln and Mercury dealerships even though they are pretty much the same offerings. It is they same with all of them. If they were smart, they would have figured out that if you build vehicles that have long lifetimes, then you need to build fewer each year. You don't need 3 dealerships in a town of 100,000 people selling the same products. If you want a truck, you aren't gonna buy a Honda Civic instead. If you want a small econo car, you probly aren't gonna come home with a V10 powered SRT Dodge Ram either. They should have built their dealerships like Subway sandwich franchises and only allowed so many per x number of miles and then limited the number produced.  

D. Johnson - Unfortunately, it seems that many of the people responding to this article are not concerned with American BUILT cars, but whether they are built in their state or if it has an American BRAND on it. They don't realize or know that General Motors has many of their American name brand vehicles built in Canada, Mexico, Germany, Australia,etc. They also OWN several FOREIGN brands like GM Daewoo in South Korea that makes their Chevy Aveo, Holden in Australia that built the GTO, Opel in Germany, Saab in Sweden, Vauxhall in Britain, and Wuling in China. Ford owns part of Mazda (anybody notice how many parts are similar between the Ranger and B2000 trucks?) and Astin Martin and all of Volvo. Until this year they also owned Jaguar and Land Rover. Chrysler is considered a private company now. They were owned by Daimler from Germany. Daimler now has 19.9% of Chrysler. Perhaps the first thing Chrysler should do is fire Nardelli (they should have asked Home Depot how great he was) and sell shares to the public to raise capital like the other two. (please don't send hate mail about the stock market right now, Chrysler's problems were here long before this economic mess.) If they want to stay private, I suggest they stop asking for my tax dollars to fund Nardelli's perks and pay their own price. If the other two, mainly GM, are so concerned about all the American workers, they should shut down any plant outside the US and put all their laid of workers to work here.

there should be no bail out at all and by the way I think wall street is in the north. If they don't stop this bail out crap the bills will never be paid our children and grandchildren and great grand children have to pay it now No more and make AIG start paying  back now Trip bonus and crap on us bull @!$%#. The government should have never start this there job is not to bail out company it to  run this government and heck they can't do that most of the time.

The South forked over alot when 9/11 happened. Remember?(N.Y)

I find it so hypocritical that Congress would ask the Auto Executives if they flew commercial to get to the meeting. Think your local congressman or woman stayed at the Super 8 Motel last time the attended a conference or meeting on the taxpayers dime?  What about their healthcare benefits?  Paid for life for doing a part time job?  I think as a matter of course it would benefit American voters if the media would publish the Congress and Senates business expenses every month as a matter of public record.  It would also be informative if tack on pork expenses were published as well and the name of those who voted for it.  Seems like we only get the info that the media wants us to have not the info that would be most beneficial.

This actually is a good place to start trimming government costs. All government lawmakers should pay the bulk of their own health insurance premiums. No more lifetime benefits, health insurance or pay.for any years of service.No more private jets for anyone. Reduce the number of government holidays, when the taxpayers shell out time and a half for no productivity. Limit public service to two terms - anything more yields only self service! And it does appear that they are eligible for a number of sweetheart deal mortgages, either through friendly felons or nifty bonuses. And you can have no idea about the coming failures of what you are responsible for like Frank and Dodd, yet remain on the banking committees! Nice deal - but needs to stop. I am sure our leaders are eager to set the example for frugality and the elimination of percs that they are asking the automakers to make. Since our government is out of money, it is about time for them to make cuts, before they raise anybody's taxes.

tax funded universal health care is part of the obvious solution, together with chpt 11

"Tax Incentives" bring business into your state, simple.

every state is going demacrat, so lets see if these southerners will get another dime of our money!!!

GL,

You are exactly right!  I was amazed at this squabble between North & South & couldn't understand their reasoning since ALL states pay taxes for these bailouts, etc.  As you noted, again self-interests by the individual state representatives, so whomever has the best "lawyers/reps"wins, right or wrong.

A GOP Politician made a statement on Hardball yesterday stating that the unions always back the Democrats so they are against them.

He made it sound like it was a revenge thing.

well lu kind of like the democrats after the presidential election, just look at the congress waiting to get even, yet they have had power for two years. i like being independent, hahah, both parties are a waste of hot air.

I will listen to any decision the southern folks make as soon as they take down their confederate flag and stop being such racist jackarses. Not everone,  but a very common few. Its true. I can't believe its just a historical southern thing, its a racist "now"  thing. period. Been to Geogia. Grant, Davis, and some other racist bast that they idolize on a giant stone wall that used to be a KKK meeting ground (now a state park)... look it up. its true. sad, sad, sad buch of people. I've actually been there. Stone Mountain or something like that. Look it up. They have light shows. They are aweful human beings.   

   These are loans to the car people not give aways any way. Just like the Banks who have to give up stock as collateral. The Government is not giving away money they are loaning it. As written it will be part of of the 700 Billion already allocated. Sessions is an idiot anyway and I hope the people in the south do not all feel the same way.

Are you serious???? to this day the majority of people that lost everything in the storms have not gotten ONE PENNY from the feds or insurance companies. The states govornments and so-called humanitarian aide organizations got all the money. Most of the peple that stayed and rebuilt did so out of their own pockets. The insurance companies had the audacity to call rain coming into a open roof that wind took off "Flood Damage" and "You do not have flood coverage, you will not be reimbursed". Heck Trent Lott got one of those letters from State Farm. The ones in the FEMA trailers were part of the welfare system that was already in place. Those that had a job were told to just go back to work.

As for the "Big Three" you are in business and you gambled wrong. YOU ARE DONE! get out and let the ones that don't make stupid assumptions take your place. When they drop the ball, they will go under too.

To bail these companies out goes against everything that AMERICA and democracy stand for. YOU FAILED. GET OVER IT. If you are so good at what you do, then you will have no trouble getting it all back.

Before you mongrels start gathering the mob to rail against me think about this. I worked for the largest diesel generator manufacturer in the world. I went from the lowest paid on the floor to the top paid in 3 years. My shift (2 testers) tested and sent to shipping on average 3 Million worth of product 6 nights a week for a couple of years. 

 When this company started seeing it's profits dropping because of a federal decision to amend the clean air movement they started cutting corners that would not get them sued. Since they already had a lawsuit in place for pension plans and seniority issues they cut the ones that had no vested interest.

Unions had there place before education became so easy to get. By the way, how well is your union protecting you today from the Big Bad Reality of the world????

I've seen several posts that say the south receives more in tax dollars than the north.  Does anyone have any proof of that?  I seriously doubt that the south receives more when every bit of federal spending is taken into account.

I wondered why the Senator from Alabama was on Meet the Press representing the con side of the U.S. auto bailout.  Not once did he mention the foreign car factories in his state or the one coming online just across the border in Georgia.

The title insinuating South vs North was pure sensationalism.  The press could have just as easily set states whose names begin with vowels against states whose names begin with consonants.  We are so easily lead by the press when they press certain buttons!

well then, why do only southern republicans hate unions!!!

I take offense at your southern "drawl." It's not cute and it's not funny. You can make a point without being offensive. Your metaphor sucks, too.

Shelley........

If you don't like a southern brawl, read past it and pay it no attention. The fact is you can't stand Southerners or else you'd not take offense at them.

Get past it and live a life. Kind Regards

I've only hear the anti-bailout theory from the Politicians.

I gotta say that it is the mid-west and south that tend to buy more american trucks and cars.

One more thing "SHELLEY",

What is so offensive about the southern drawl. We could say the same about your voice but we respect you, so get on with your life.

Kind Regards

Well, as a resident of South Carolina, I wasn't nuts about the southern "drawl" (not brawl, that's a fight) either and agree with Shelly. Its just continuing to sterotype southerns as speaking that way. Now, I do say "y'all" but hey, thats life. No different than slang words in NH or MA, like "wicked good", etc.

I dont think that the southerners have their hands out for quite the same reason as Detroit. The big 3 are calling/begging/pleading for help for years and years of bad management, overpaid workers who produce fair to poor quality, and I would bet that they'd go through that 25B pretty fast and then what? Please dont confused man-made disaters/bailouts with mother nature. Nobody in the south, especially those of us who live on the coast, look forward to hurricane season. We prepare, know how to stockpile, what routes to take if needed, etc. But there's a world of difference between riding out a hurricane like Katrina and being desperate for food, housing and even water, and Detroit screwing around for decades and now WE, north and south, have to pony up. NO thanks. Oh, and before I get slammed about southern mentality, I was raised in the north, went to school in the north and can see both sides of the aisle. This north v. south crap is not helping this COUNTRY.

Mainebound,

You made some very excellent points, and I agree with you completely.  I grew up in the South, my husband's family are from the North--  Massachusetts.  And he is saying the same thing you are.  Besides, all the hurricanes do not occur in the South, I do recall there have been some hurricanes go up the East coast and rip them a new one too! 

 I AM SOUTHERN!!!! I am from TN! I thought it was a rude comment was all. Didn't you?

For what it's worth, I agree with you Shelly.

Thanks Gray Headed.. :) Those of us who live here and choose to ride out a hurricane do so at our own risk. Like with Ike, Galveston was warned day after day to get out.. they stayed. Would I have stayed? No, and I have yet to evacuate since 1997. That was a different thing. I cant say why folks dont leave, some have no transportation, money to leave, etc. I havent seen a hurricane yet that made me want to leave because trying to get back home is worse than a hurricane... so much traffic, red tape, etc. BUT, if I dont evacuate and lose power, water, etc., then its my responsibility to survive until things get back to normal, not stick my hand out ASAP for help. This is what Detroit is doing. Yes, most southerners do drive ChevyFord (trucks), and I would love another Ford Explorer. But, the gas mileage isn't worth it and they are too expensive. My point is, Detroit got fat and overspent on our dime for 30 or 40 years, had the mentality that we coulnd't do without them, and guess what? We may have to. I'm sorry, if I am going to let 25B go to some group, it will be the people with families now homeless with children, no food, no utilities, etc. Oh, and the arrogance of the CEOs of the big 3 alone makes me want to tell em to drop dead. The arrogance. The hell with it... file chapter 11, dump upper management, perks, planes, golden parachutes and reorganize. Make the UAW a non-entity, as much as you can legally, and give the workers a choice of taking X dollars an hour with benefits, or mosey along....

Enough comments about the Southern drawl.  The article was about the bailout.  If we don't help our automakers then we will no longer make cars.  Down go the manufactureres, the dealers, the parts suppliers.  The taxpayers then get to fund the unfunded pensions of the automotive retirees, their healthcare, their house foreclosures, their unemployment, the increase in crime, ect.etc.ect. Look around people...we don't manufacture very much anymore.  Ford, GM, and Chrysler all make good products.  They need to start making alternative vehicles and vehicles that get great gas mileage.  If we can bailout worthless bankers and wall street then we most certainly can bail out the big three.

    The Union thing is a red herring and so is the poor quality thing. This is management Shelby the designer of the famous Mustang said yesterday they should clean house of the dinosaurs in management and get some new forward thinking people in there if the want to save the Auto Industry. health care which is a large part of the wage problem was given to the workers in lieu of wage increases years ago when it was cheap. Now it is not. Pension plans we managed by the Auto companies and were cash cows for them over the years as they could tap into them for quick cash so it did not matter to them. These costs are all factored in to the price of the car you buy so actually the consumer pays for them plus whatever the automaker tacks on for his board of directors.

     As far as quality goes that also is in the hands of the management team. The workers have nothing to do with what parts are bought to go into the machines.

      The way I see it is we as a country have an industry which is part to blame for its troubles and part of it goes with the consumers who wanted truck and SUV's and Hummers and Escapade's so Detroit built them and sold them. each company produced small cars with decent gas mileage but they did not sell. Along came the downturn We borrowed money to finance the war and in doing so we made the dollar weak and since the dollar was used to reflect the price of oil it went up speculators got in and ran it up to 3 times its present worth and the economy started laying people off. These people started losing their homes and the housing industry went down and in doing so caught the bank speculators in the cross hairs and the banks had to come up with money the did not have so there was no money to lend which brings us to where we are today.

      The Banks need a transfusion. So do the industries that got caught up in it. We can argue Management Union and any other number of things in the future but what is now is the important thing. We lost the garment industry the steel industry and any number of other manufacturing entities. Will it ever stop. We are importing 59 billion dollars more than we export every month. We are spending 12 billion a month in Iraq. We keep letting people get laid off and no jobs for them to fill and what does that do to the tax revenue. Depletes it. China is making signals that they want to buy GM and Chrysler.

      If we get into a major war and we do not own the proper industry where are we going to get what we need to fight those wars? Wait for a container ship?

Roland, I think the north would get the worst end of any north/south trade brawl.  Check out who has most of the oil, natural gas, farms, ranches and ports.  I think the south is better equipped to survive hurricane season than the north is prepared to survive a winter without oil or food.  Come to think of it, what does the north produce except for financial services?

Hey I think everyone is really missing the point.  No one wants to bailout anyone with tax payer dollars.  We are talking economics not of the north or of the south.  The economic impact this is going to have on OUR ecomony, one way or another is huge no one will escape its ramifications.  I think the more pertinent question is what will happen if something is not done to help this industry? We have all heard it all the #'s of umemployment will soar, people collecting unemployement benefits more tax burden on those who are working , no spending power, defaulting on credit cards, mortgages etc., no income taxes will be paid by these folks along with all the other people who are linked to the auto industry such as dealers, suppliers, manufactures of supplies etc etc...... The CEO's who have  mismanged their companies their profits and failing to project for the future needs need to GO. 

DEMON CHILD Foreign auto makers pay is based on UAW contract pay.  You are wrong when you say foreign car auto workers make far less.

The reason you don't see Honda, Toyota, Hyundai with their hands out is because their countries heavily subsidize these companies with government money.

Please let me know of an established medical doctor that makes less than an hourly union line worker at GM.  I really want to see this.  Please tell me where I can find this.

You are spreading nonsense.

:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

I say some doctors. What about nurses?

I got the above and below information from FORBES.

Transformational UAW Deal? Accept Professors' Pay

According , the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about: "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school degree, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a Ph.D.

You are talking about "competitive labor costs" which is not how much the workers are actually being paid (including benefits).  With the average rate of pay somewhere under $27/hr.  There is no way UAW total pay, including benefits is $75/hr.  $48/hr. in benefits alone?  Two thirds of their pay is in benefits?  Not likely!

Wage Rate of GM/Ford/DaimlerChrysler

UAW Represented Assembly Workers as of March 5, 2007

GM Assembler Hourly Rate $26.09

FORD Assembler Hourly Rate $26.10

DAIMLERCHRYSLER Hourly Rate $26.86

OK DAN time to stop with your reading of the slated UAW news report. The per hour your talking about is just that per hour without benefits. There is no other factory worker that I know of that gets 85% of their pay if they are layed off. Or how about 80% of their pay if they elect to go in the job bank for up to two years. Hell I know one GM employee that took the summer off to build his summer home in North Michigan because of that. Work 20 years instant penision plus free dental, vision and health care. If you retire from them then these benefits are for life at retirement. So I guess using your numbers then your saying the UAW workers will really work for those number's? Great let's get a hold of Mr. Wagner and rewrite your contracts. Now go drink your koolaid or put down your cards and go back to the line.

The pension is for life but not the other benefits. Pension is the only thing guaranteed.

Better question:  why is the only way to fix the company seen to be trashing promises to retirees about pensions?  That is the one thing companies in bankruptcy are allowed to do that really fries me.  I mean, a contract with your workers to replace some of their salary with retirement benefits can just be thrown out any time the company needs more money to function?  I am not arguing the specific question of whether or not UAW-won benefits were or were not excessive.  I am just stating that there is something wrong with going into bankruptcy in order to get rid of your "legacy costs" like your promises to your now-retired employees.  It seems to me that the employee pension plan funds should be separated from other funds in a company, and should not be breachable by the company either for ongoing revenue needs or when in bankruptcy.  They should be sacrosanct.  Retirees in mid-retirement do not need the rug pulled out from under them, after working for years at a job they might not have exactly adored in order to achieve the "security" of a pension.

its not a bailout they want a loan-get it right

CATUAW so why are there UAW health care centers here in Florida? We don't have any UAW plants in Florida (something about the right to work thing we believe in down here) Come on we will find out the truth you know. Maybe I should call my old neighbor that lives up in Michigan to get the real truth. But I think your wrong because why are the newspapers talking about health care benefits for your retired workers and the UAW is getting the money from the big 3. I think next year to take that off of the Big 3's back. BTW wait until the UAW gets that money do you guys really think that the money will be there when you retire?  Hahahaha

Whatever the figure is, these people make quite a bit of money considering that robots do a lot of the work.

right to work= right to poverty......there are more really poor people in right to work states because there isnt any skilled labor to compare yourself to. right to die poor

Your SS check is based on the amount that you pay in - which is based on how much you make during your working life.

My mom and her husband bring in @ $2,400 per month with SSI and his union retirement check.  They can live just fine.

In the poorer states they only get the minimum SS payout and then have to be paid an additional supplement check because their SS check isn't enough to live on.

I don't know which coffer the additional check come out of; but it seems like it would be better to pay people a decent wage during their working life so that they don't live in poverty in their old age.

Demon,

A couple of questions for you:

How much money in tax breaks did Honda, Toyota, Kia and others receive in federal tax breaks to come and build their companies here?  Bet it was more than 25 billion.

Also do you think its fair for an American car to have a 30-50% tariff added to it when sold outside the USA?  What do you think the tariff is on any of those cars above?

Why is the trade deficit so lopsided? 

Demon whatever....I don't believe your figures.Pay may be adjusted, promises to retirees should be kept.  When our car makers go belly up the US taxpayer will wind up paying for the unfunded pensions anyway why not try to keep our manufactuers going? The foreign car makers in the United States take their profits out of the United States.  They should be required to fund their employees healthcare and their retirements.  They also should not get any sweet heart deals to build their plants here.

God!..........what planet are you from there triple sixes? This is the United States of America. One for all and all for one. Buy war bonds! Have scrap metal drives and don't forget which day to use your ration card for gas!

We're ALL AMERICANS. Not red states or blue states as the damn news media would like to have you think. Or like the idiot from MSNBC, Tom Curry, who wrote the article here, "NORTH vs. SOUTH." That war was over 143 years ago. Let it go! We don't need the divisions, especially now. The IDIOTS in the news media should just shut the hell up. Idiots like Tommy boy are the ones who can start wars. Like the " yellow journalism " that helped precipitate the Spanish American War. A war helped along by two prominent news papers that LIED! It's not like the press doesn't have an agenda too. They've always slanted the news. We can't really trust them to say or do the right thing. They should just shut the hell up and let us Americans work together to solve ALL of our problems together and not " Stir the Pot " like the damn news media does. Their ratings are as bad as Congress' as far as their trust worthiness. What's that tell you?

How much money in tax breaks did Honda, Toyota, Kia and others receive in federal tax breaks to come and build their companies here?

Very large state tax breaks are offered to Big Three companies when they build new plants or expand existing plants.  I remember when Detroit basically paid for the (at the time) Chrysler Jefferson North plant and the sums Georgia paid to Ford to expand the paint facility at the (now closed) Atlanta Assembly Plant.

States and local governments compete for those plants because they create lots of good jobs and lots of tax dollars.  Part of how they compete is too offer tax breaks, training centers, and applicant screening.

As for what Senator Sessions said, he is merely explaining that his constituents are having a tough time with agreeing to this loan package -- just like they were against the TARP legislation.  Both Alabama senators voted against the legislation that created TARP.  I expect both will vote against the auto loans as well.

you think professors would be paid that much if the unions didn't extablish 40 hour weeks!!! NOT! Degrees dont give you common sense.

Yea' like sell the private jets. Never seen such mutt looks on CEOs in my entire life..

You have a point about the Chrysler. 

The only Chrysler that I can think of is the La Barron; but I don't know if they even make those cars any more.

Chrysler is not American owned, Germany owns it.

Kinda of like the banks huh?  Lets bail them out and hold them accountible! 

Oh wait that was the bad debt mortgage they were suppose to bail out and now they changed their minds and are not bailing out the debt but the banks and Barney Franks feels its not necessary to hold anyone responsible.

What a joke.  Oh and wait lets divide the country on the North and South and compare who gets what kind of tax advantage. 

Well its not a bailout but a loan and I for one am all in favor of helping out an American Company.

But its ok there will be millions affected and none of you piece of $hit politicians who do not want to help out an American company will not be voted back in anyway so kiss your lifetime benefits goodbye because that there will be a national agenda to remove that from all federal workers as it just costs to much to support you fat bastards sitting around doing nothing.

I agree completely........................I, for one, am not willing to pay for someone to have bonuses each year larger than my entire lifetime income.  These stipulations will have to  be signed in blood as far as I am concerned.

CEOs make more in one year than we will make forever!!

What are you talking about? Where do you live? Do you know why TN got the new VW plant and OH, MI, or IN didn't? TN is a right to work state. That's right. That's where you'll find all of your profitable, employable car plants: Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, VW, etc... in the South and all right to work states. If anything, you'll find people moving down here to find work, stupid.

thats why they will let them fail so people will do anything for a buck

Dan; the reps and senators in Alabama are doing their jobs, isn't that why we elect them, to do what is best for the people that live in that state?

Yes Shelly I do they all got huge tax reductions to come and build in those poor states to create jobs, as a matter of fact those tax breaks combined is more than the 25 billion dollar LOAN that the American companies are asking for.

It was not because Tn is a right to work state.

Oh please! 1. My state, TN, has NO state income tax. 2. My guv, Phil Bredesen, actively went to Germany to recruit the VW plant. I am sure he gave them an enormous tax break, but that goes without saying. 3. TN IS a right to work state. It also goes without saying that our labor costs are MUCH CHEAPER than Detroit's. Sorry, but there it is. 4. TN isn't poor. We have tourism, country music, Jack Daniels, and a 10% sales tax in most of the state that everybody pays when you come see us. Thanks y'all.

Not to mentioned Shelley, Michigans economy has been awful for years.  There are so many houses on the market because they can't sell.   TN is a much better choice than Detroit any day.

 The mass migration of African American workers from the South to the North to work in the auto industry, will now be reversed

Look at Atlanta, it has already happened. We have nothing left to lose. F*ck ya'll.

While TN is an awesome state, I don't necessarily agree with the fact that I, living in a northern state should pay a higher tax for a company that EVERYONE in the US has an opportunity to buy the cars from!  There are also plants here that are NOT "US manufactured" car plants! 

Carefull now. I keep reading the state XYZ is a "right to work state".

That cuts both ways. In a right to work state employers can fire or cut hours with little or no notice or warning. Unlike some states it's very easy to get rid of worker in a right to work state.

Stephanie, fortunately the only way you'd half to pay that 10% sales tax was if you came to TN to visit. In other words, if you spent a dollar, you'd pay a dime for tax. Steep, huh? If you bought a car if would only be 7%, I think. It is collected on everything, including food. If you ate in a restaurant it is 10.5% :) Our sin tax (liquor and cigs) is low. That's how we get around the no state income tax thing. Everybody pays: visitors and residents.

Dan; the reps and senators in Alabama are doing their jobs, isn't that why we elect them, to do what is best for the people that live in that state?

That would be the house not the Senate. They are there to represent the interests of all Americans not just their States.

Shelly so your telling me that the state didn't provide any incentives to come in and build a facility/factory?  Thats just naive and I am not making fun of you or anyone else in Tenn. as I have may relatives there.  But I believe you better take a look at the fine print to see what kind of incentives were provided to those companies to come in and build thier companies.  I agree Tenn. is a fine state but that wasn't the incentive.

In all fairness to the auto industry:  People bought those giant vehicles.

It was the fashionable thing to drive..until gas hit $4.00 per gallon.

amen

Fairness is putting all these companies foriegn and domestic on an even playing field.

Tax breaks for the foriegn companies to buiild companies in the US - billions - Advantage  foriegn player

30-50% tariff on all American vehicles sold outside the USA - Advantage - foriegn player

Lets create a global economy- opps sorry your job has just been outsourced to person in India or Mexico where they make $1000 USD a year, they are better workers you know, they must be to work for that kind of money.

The dumbing down of America is just about complete, thank your local politician today for there contribution to a healthy and secure America.

thats right. people wanted the big trucks.

the skilled worker sets the wages that everyone is compared to doing close to the same thing-we set your wages not the other way around.when we are gone your whole family kids included will be working for pennys an hour like china and you will like it. give up health ins and any retirement-no overtime and work on weekends for the same wage-WE SET YOUR WAGES AND IF WE ARE GONE THEIR WILL BE NO ONE TO SAVE YOU

well said Ron, however I fear your words are falling on deaf ears.  It is all about me and to hell with you.  It is blame this one, blame that one, and to hell with individual responsibility.  America has become me against you and I fear greatly for our once great land.  This is the era of "just give me mine".  The time for us to pull together for the good af the nation has gone by the wayside and I don't believe it will ever come back unless something really terrible occurs, such as civil war.  I know this sounds alarmist and ridiculous, but I think the possibility is very real.  The blame game and the ungodly hatred being spewed across our land is so divisive as to render us ineffective in any actions we may take to solve the issues we as a nation face.  These blogs and any others that you may visit show how we feel towards each other.  the dems hate the repubs, the blacks hate the whites, the whites hate the blacks, the Christians hate the Jew and so on and so on.  There is no one taking responsibility for their actions, only blame and hate.  Until we as a nation can find a way to stop the hate, we are doomed to become a smoking hole in the ground where a once proud people lived and prospered.

Outstanding post, so very true.  It's dividing statements like I don't think my Ala taxpayers should pay for this in the north, that will be the attitude that is the final nail in the coffin for America as a whole.

Ron #8...I agree with almost everything you wrote...however, I am not willing to forgo my Social Security that I contributed to.  What I recomend is that you and anyone else that wants to give up your social security back to the government do it...keep your hands off mine. Donn...the Dems do hate the Reps and rightfully so...they have ruined this country and I will never forgive them or George Bush.

I do believe only in very hard times might we once again come together as you say you had come to remember Ron..Maybe perhaps a return to the 1930's would change the collective moral thought of this country... maybe it in some way it would be a good thing...to once again help on another and share the pie in a more reasonable fashion..

I understand how alot got tobe the way it did.  Once we had "sweat shops" the rich {few} made the furtune while the rest suffered with little. Along can the UNion with the Union officials... CEO's 100's M absolutely ABSURD EVERY YEAR... I mean, no wonder- it's like a domino chain effect in every sector..

I believe a ration pay scale from the very bottom to the top should definitely be structured to a acceptable percentage in all sectors.....

I am no fool and realize this is only possible with a total collapse like 1929. Then we will all somewhat be in the same boat!

brad is right, we in UAW are the top of the food chain. when we go, you drop to!!

no the bankers and ceos did it. WHY blame the guy that makes the cars?????

Hey stop your speaking the truth and no one can take that here..

Great post.

Remind them on election day.  Boot them out now.

I don't understand how not wanting to let CEOs that have trashed their own companies and still fly around in corporate jets blow $25 to $50 billion of YOUR tax dollars is going to help the big foreign multinationals. Many of these Big 3 cars and trucks are manufactured outside of the US. If these companies gave a crap about the AMERICAN auto worker, they would shut down all of the outside plants and start paying American workers to build it here. Yes, they want a LOAN. This would be paid back, but none of these CEOs or UAW president has offered any solution as to how they will do that. How big would my company have to be and how many employees would I have to have for me to get a piece of this pie so that I could then file for chapter 11 and write it off? If they file for chapter 11, wipe out all these benefits, lose all these jobs, you will still scream about the HUGE loan that just got flushed. These FOREIGN car makers are using AMERICAN workers and putting $$$$$ in these same workers pockets. How many Detroit workers would take a job (that according to others in this blog pays as well as your Big 3) with a Japanese company as long as it put food on the table and kept a roof over your kids heads? If they didn't take this same wage paying job, that would be dumb. What would you rather do, grab the foreign made rope, or drown in your own stupidity? NOBODY wants American workers out of jobs. But none of the four Idoits asking for this huge LOAN, have offered a way to pay it back. Even with a big primo stake in any of these companies, the US will still lose its money if they collapse. The workers will still lose their pay. The workers will still lose their benefits. And the UAW president will just go look for his pay from these FOREIGN car making workers in the south. OH wait, They are already filing suits against other UNIONS so they can't get our money first.

jerry -your smart about this!!! southerners want to flip burgers i guess!!!

thankyou catuaw for your insight- too bad more union workers wont take the time to tell these uninformed people how it is-when we are gone they will dream about a union saving them from corp america

The anti-union stance is a little shocking.

We all know that unions have their problems, but they do a lot of good as well.

Unions were developed because companies were taking advantage of the workers.

The tables have turned.

Now the unions are taking advantage of the companies.

taking advantage? unions are only 12% to 14% of the workforce now and about to go down by 2%. when they privitize our mail with fed-ex and the brown turd it will be about 10% and when the rest of you morons vote for a right to die state it will be all over-we will live in poverty working 7-12's until you kids take thier shift when they leave the charter school that tells them what to think and do-at the factory. one thing for sure unions are the one and only thing that will save us-along with even trade-we do need to come together as one union we a people will take no more SHOCK DOCTRINE!!

am.can, the unions are taking advantage of the workers now since they have no real bone to pick from companies thanks to the establishment of labor laws, you dont need to contact your union rep over a problem, you just find a decent attourney and on top of solving the problem a nice check.  im not being sarcastic.

Several things about the comparison of the southern states labor rates, in a recent news release about Toyota, it was noted most of the labor was part time and contract. in both cases there are no benefits what so ever paid.

The problem will come in 30 years when these workers can no longer work and have no retirement or health care. Needless to say they will be looking at welfare to survive.

People like Shelby run for office in opposition to "entitlements" but help create the need for it.

And half of the $700 bailout money is gone and they can't even tell us where it went.

its not a loan until they pay back every penny.

Goeast,  You are right about every statement in your post. We are seeing the results of decisions made in the 1940s to deindustralize American.   The next super power after America is finish will be Brazil, South Africa or Russia.  I do not see a way out of the mess. The wealthy will import what they want from Germany, Japan or some other country.  The people who are now part of the working class will find out what the wealthy people mean when they refer to the "man in the streets."

Goeast I think you summed it up well.  This is not the USA that it was 50/75 years ago in some respects much has been gained but also much has been lost.  We slowly involved into country that promoted a middle class, then many were able to buy homes, cars etc..... People were happy with so much less than people expect to have today.  I am a Boomer and born in the early 50's.  I recall how it was to know you neighbor, like your neighbor and would know if he/she needed a hand & one could always count on the guy next door on down the street.  How many of us know our neighbor 2 doors down?

People took pride in their work most had strong work ethics if you didn't you didn't have a job.  People were team players not living in the "ME First" mentality & had values and lived by them. 

Then as folks made more ( I particulary noticed this in the early 90's) and became 2 income families the mentality changed. We were and are still being bombarded with marketing of one product after another.  Seeing our kids being targeted making a new generation of want.  Materialism took hold hence big business could not sell enough, they could not make enough even though profits were rising and business was flourishing. It still was not enough for them (CEO's) so they ended selling us out by taking our manufacturing jobs to countries that have cheap labor so they could line their pockets with even more.  A country that does not manufacture products has nothing.  We have become a nation of services and even some of those services are unstable (Wall Street) & being shipped elsewhere.   Where are all those who are unemployed going to find jobs?

What is happening today in the financial and mortgage industries, the auto industries and others that have not come forward wanting a bailout is a result of greed. Big business and consumers too are wanting more and more and the day of reckoning has come and who knows where it will end. It is a house of cards. 

THEY NEED A LOAN!!not a bailout like the banks that caused this mess in the first place by loaning to unqualified people

Bailout or loan, call it whatever you want.  The truth of the matter is that they will never be in a position to pay this money back.  They've been reporting losses for years so why should we beleive that giving them $25 Billion will be their salvation.  Giving them this money would be like giving an addict crack.  They'll be happy for a few months but then they'll eventually crash and burn.  Let them file bankruptcy and reorg like every other company does. 

Nah!  You guys let the big 3 go down and then you can sell your loyalty to China and Japan.  Hope you like sake and kimonos.

Hey Gene Do you remember when the UWA was in contract talks and GM told them that they didn't have what they were asking for. Then the UWA demanded to see their books and GM gave it to them. Will thats like asking the Fox to guard the chicken koop. Now I know the UAW asked for everything thing they could after that and got it. Now these Executives show up on capital hill in private jets and no game plan....WOW that takes some pretty big ones. If these guys were running my company I think I would be pretty afraid right about now very afraid. I don't think I could trust them with 25 BILLION. BTW I'm tried of hearing of buying anything but the big 3 product that we're just sending our money overseas. The Big 3 have been doing just that for years! They have built any new plants in China, Russia, Mexico and Canada to name a few. They just recently just annouced a new plant in Flint.....is that going to happen now or was that a set up for this loan?

the company did that not the union

Frankly, I'm wondering it's time to let the South go their own way.

You are much closer to the truth than you realize.  Shelby, Corker, and McConnell have sold their allegiance to Japan.  The riots in the midwest when you send 7 million into overnight poverty will set America on fire.  America is not just headed for a lower standard of living, it's headed for a breakup.  America is coming to an end. 

I don't know why the GOP politicians are fighting this.

We have plenty of money for war and banks, but nothing to save America's backbone.

The southern companys do not like unions because the unions make work places safer and good benifits for the workers they want to work people hard and keep all the money for their big homes and big cars and even bigger boats or yachtsand the workers do well just to have a small home a gas saving car and a fishing boat,the southern people like it that way thats why they make sure they keep the right to work inforce.and i'm a southerner that got the xxxxxx out.

DetoitRon - who cares who's going to build our war neccessities.  My chevy needs another alternator and it's going to cost $219.47  and I'm tired of those UAW folks making $598 an hour and living in mansions up North.  We Southern folk aren't real ambitious so we would rather have you drop your wages in the unions so we can all live poorer, that would be a lot better than us fighting for higher wages from the foreign auto makers.  Yeah that's the ticket, bring you guys down rather than us fight to make more for our families.  Seems a lot easier to me.  Oh well, time for a nap!