Why Democrats gave Big Three a reprieve

I was thinking the same thing.

They've pressured the CEOs of the auto industry to work for $1.00 per year, but the banks are crying that they're xmas bonuses will only be in the millions instead of tens of millions that they are accustomed to receiving.

I don't remember anyone questioning the banks means of travel...but did the heads of the bank that received the bailout money even show up on Capitol Hill?

I'm not saying that the auto industry execs are pure and clean, but I  don't understand why they are being badgered while the banking industry execs are getting a Swedish massage.

I couldn't agree more, your asking Chris Dodd and Barney Frank about how viable the car companies are, funny didn't these two buttheads crash Fannie and Freddie and then they were both in a position to vote for a bailout for it.  Isn't that a conflict of interest?

Why didn't the ethics board look into the affair that Franks had with another man of one of these companies?

The rules of ethics and viability only seem to apply to certain companies and people and our congress is not one of them.

Does this quote seem familiar through the years of government "if you don't have the vote delay".  Thats how incompetent our government is. 

Next election they all need to be looking for another job or be placed in jail for subversion against the American people.

First of all, what makes us all think that Dodd and Frank know what a "viable" business look like.  Have either of these two ran a business or an auto industry.  Where are the experts in all of this.  I don't want these two yahoos deciding on what "viable" is.

Next,  I will laugh my butt off if this backfires on the democrats.  The democrats plain and simple want to win Ohio, Michigan, and the surrounding area.  So of course they are going to vote for this.  Good, then when this industry fails in 2012, and our $50 billion is gone it is going to be the sword that the Democrats fell on.  I have to think the majority of Americans are against a bailout.  Not that we want to see the auto industry go under, but there needs to be some major changes and the Union has to go.  If the union stays, most of us want to watch it fall flat on its face. I do feel for the people, but as long as they stick to their terroristic union (threating to strike to get what they want, that is what terrorists do) i say burn baby burn.

In most countries these "Bank Swindling" CEO's would have there Buisness assests froze,{whats left} personal assest's confiscaded and then marched off to the nearest brick wall...

It's called TREASON....

That major change also has to do with the way our government thinks?  They are not above the laws of this country.

Lets cut out their benefits and put them on the real American plan, they would not survive one hour without bickering or blaming someone else for their problems.

Why Democrats gave the 3 a reprieve.

One word:  Votes

LU and ivan that was my very first thought when I saw them asking .. who was willing to give up their coporate jets... why in the HELL was not anyone doing this when we first started the handout.. I mean bailout?

Why are not any conditions or penalties being placed on them now?  Everytime I see this mess in the news all I can say is WTF?

I think after this election Americans should have learned something.. support of the people can sway anything.  I think if we dare put our weight into this to get the corrections and stipulations we want we can. 

This is our money after all.  Our "investment"  and quite frankly I am not happy with the assurance that... oh, they'll (the tax payers)  will get it back "somehow".

The article says

"Reid said it would be up to Dodd and House Financial Services Committee chairman Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., to judge what “viability” was and whether the automakers had it."

Are these the same people who determined that the Sub-Prime Mortgages were a "viable" idea. Give me a break. The only thing that will make the Big 3 "viable" will be to get the union labor cost of $57 per hour down to something competitive with the rest of the "real" world. Even the unions admit that management was "stupid for giving in to our demands". Don't hold your breath though, because the unions are looking for payback for their strong support of Democrats in the elections. The Dems will find a way to bail out the unions, for 6 months or so, and then they'll be back with hats in hand again. What a joke. Reorganization is their only hope.

Look, it is very simple...the Dems are in the tank with the UAW...PERIOD. They contributes 3 millions dollars during the final month of the campain in four battle ground states and they are looking for retribution now. A Dem Congressman said it today, it isn't the taxpayers money, it is theirs to spend at their leisure.

Welcome change....welcome.

If the big three are not helped out of this mess (and yes there should be strings attached to the loan) then millions of jobs could be lost. the American people look back and point the finger and they will not point it at the automakers themselves, no matter how good of a case can be made for that, they point it at the GOP who will and are being perceived as favoring bailout big banks, but not the average worker.

Welcome change....welcome. isn't even in office yet. 

Obama is not even in office yet.

As for UAW... please.. why don't we see who the Reps would have been sucking butt to.. oh wait.. we did.  AIG

John McCain is making a big show of criticizing the government "bailout" of insurance giant AIG. But it turns out that AIG, which received $85 billion in US tax dollars earlier this week, is one of the largest donors to McCain's pet think tank, named "Reform Institute," which he co-founded in 2001 "in direct response to the millions of Americans who, during the 2000 presidential campaign, expressed profound disillusionment with corrupt fundraising activities."

Or how about McConnel?

 AIG has paid McConnell to give speeches and donated thousands to his campaign.

or maybe this connection just says it all on it's own...

AIG's former Chairman Maurice Greenberg has been compared to Citizen Kane for his political ambition.  He's a major contributor to the Republican Party.

Polliticians of today, maybe not ALL are "Opportunists", but most see it as a way to have a heck of a future. Feather their nest so to speak. They're a totally different breed of cat entirely. But what are we left with? The game goes like this: Get elected, serve a term or two. Get on a select commitee of sorts. Play that hand as long as possible. Then comes the "REWARD" = The good old "revolving door". Which means then they use their connections to Lobby, = buy Legislation for the Humongus Corps. & get paid "Millions" & be in the limelight while salting it away for their "Clans" (or) whatever. Meanwhile selling America down the river. This is what happened to America. When the Supreme Court said "money is an expression of speech, thats what did it. Reguarding campains, etc.

Bam Bam, The bailout of the banks was wrong and the first mistake,now they are about ready too make the second one for the three automakers,this is dead wrong.       Let them sell their jets first and fly regular airlines if they have too The people involved in the scewup of this industry should be shown the door.Start with new managers with no bonusses and all kind of perks, Second the labor unions and the workers have to lower the wages (they have been overpayd for unskilled labor for too many years) to the point that we can not compete anymore with other countries overseas,if they don't change drasticely soon we won't make cars in the US anymore.All this has to change first before they can talk about a bailout,and that include all other magnufactories in the old USA,we have to lower our living standard ,like it or not.

Barry, the congress asked the CEO's what concessions the UAW was going to make, the answer was to cut their compensation from $77.00 including benefits to $44.00, that's about a 40% cut and will bring them in line with the non-union companies in the same buisness. I would have been interested in hearing how the per unit profit difference between the two compared, but nobody asked. The CEO's also ALL agreed to work for a buck a year until they were profitable again. I don't remember any such discussion with the financial industry, do you? (The "Golden Parachutes"were mentioned, but nothing put into law!) I don't believe in handing people money, but if we lose the 5 million jobs projected it will cost far more and cause an awful lot of human suffering besides.

We are in this crisis because of an intentional scam perpetrated by the financial leaders who will be getting that $700,000,000,000, that's like paying a theif because the things he stole weren't worth what he thought. The auto makers problems are partially the result of that scam and the resulting credit crunch. I think that lending some of that bailout money to the auto industry, who did pay back a similar loan ahead of time in the early eighties, is the lesser of the evils we face.    

The Real Issue is for Congress to call the shots as it relates to issuing money to corporate America.  These banks and the auto industry had deregulation policies that have been proven to be disasterous as it was during the Coolidge/Hoover Depression years.  Although we can make criticisms of the bailouts, there are solutions: Federal oversight on sight....employ an experienced Federal on-sight manager(s) to direct the company's focus that allows them the ability to approve or disapprove all spending issues and spending cuts.  With each Federal on-sight manager, the corporate CEO's direct managers are downsized in proportion to the number of Federal Managers needed.  In cases of mismanagement that has been found for years, the CEO and the COO would need to be replaced. Other examples: All contracts could be altered including CEO contracts that include use of company planes and automobiles especially if the costs can be reduced.  (not only are there extraordinate amount of company planes, there is real estate and various cars some are with different companies.....Ford CEO has a Mercedes Benz)......If these companies want the money, then they need to be prepared to accept cuts in every area above the status of the ordinary line worker.

Also, a cut in executive salary that is below the companies that perform adequately needs to be considered.  If these executives don't like these cuts.....show them the door.  There are other unemployed who could step in and do a much better job, after all they won't fly in for a cost of $20,000 in a company plane.  They would save plenty of money by flying Southwest ($300) which has had years of surpluses due to strong executive leadership.

Last comment, one of the Big 3 CEO's said he had to fly the company plane due to security.  If we are not mistaken, don't we have "security" at each airport in this country?

Ivan I agree with much of what you are saying, but the blame rests with the executive branch which is in charge of implementation.  There were no restrictions on the banks use of bailout funds due to the incompetence of the Treasury Secretary who got on a plane to give a speech to a group of people.  It's interesting that the incompetent can give speeches and cannot manage what needs to be managed....Paulson on the West Coast and the President overseas......If they were truly competent, they would be working long hours to begin solving this crises for their individual legacies and the American people.

JT, have you no understanding about large corporations and how they are managed??

Fire the execs and hire who?? to run the business??

The 3 have already received 25 billion for green retooling. It would be (at least anyone with sense would see it) easier to remove the "green" strings from that money than try to get MORE money.

David: We could give the job to Pelosi, Reid, Frank and Dodd. Honestly, could they do a WORSE job?

There are a plethora of qualified MBAs with significant experience in company turnaround.  Private Equity uses them all the time, they are usually known as "hatchet men".  The government should operate this "bailout" the way private industry would run a Leveraged Buyout and take a hatchet to the entire corporate structure.  That is the only way that this could possibly work and create a viable business model.  Nevertheless, UAW still poses the most significant threat to the business model and that cannot be worked around unless the big three declare chapter 11.  Anyone with a real understanding of business realizes that these clowns are incapable of running a Subway let alone a multi-billion dollar operation.  There are more than enough qualified people out there.   

Exactly, plus "we dont have the votes" means " lets bounce the ball around and see how many earmarks we can stick to it"

Fire the execs and hire who?? to run the business??

Eliminate the position!  $30-35 million per year??  How many cars have to be sold just to make the CEO's salary?

Some might ask, "Where is the Board of Directors on this one?"  The problem is they are all on each others board and it's all for one & one for all.  Screw the little guy, screw the towns tied to the industry as they collapse in a downward economic spiral.  Screw the worker who has punched the clock for the last 20 years to help pay for that corporate jet.

These men are failures.  Failures at business and humanity and should be dealt with accordingly.

Re: 2.1   Hire me -- I could run a corporation into the ground for $18M, which is what Alan Fishman, CEO of the failed WaMu earned in salary, bonuses and severence for three weeks on the job.

Heck.  I will do it for half that.

Eris-Fl, You killed your own horse!! You explained that the AIG bailout was heavily criticized by McBrain, and accused him of being their puppet..........????????????

Desertgirl, the auto companies haven't recieved a penny of that money, it was approved but never funded or released. Just thought you should know. 

Money for the car companies to reduce gasoline consumption wasn't released by the Bush Administration.   The lead person is the Treasury Secretary.  2 more months of these incompetents and we will see a "Change" immediately.  Can't wait!!!  Oh by the way, our President was overseas still talking about "deregulation".  He has had 8 years and look what his policies have done!!!!  The foreign leaders were polite towards him...because they know he will be gone before February, 2009.   : )

Not that the companies chose to go the wrong way intentionally. They were bullied by the unions for pay way to high and benefits, NO ONE not even the military see.

for pay way to high and benefits

What would you consider equatable? 

For a true picture of the vast inequities in the American workplace, try comparing the pay of your company's CEO with your own. Here are two ways to find out what's in your corporation's executive compensation packages:

Executive PayWatch Database

Dari-, You are so as they say, "Spot On". GM alone is burning 5 Bil a month to float. At this rate, they'll burn the entire 50 Bil speculated in 10 months and still not sell a car. All you hear about is the "Volt" which is a "Nowhere Car" that I really don't think will ultimately sell enough units to save a YUGO!!

And what other options did we have?

There are other parties, Optomyst, but unfortunately the presidential debates are controlled by a corporation that is a collusion of the Democratic Party and the Republican Party to keep any other voices out.

If you don't know what other options there are, you clearly aren't looking or do not care so why ask?

The option was as clear as the daylight before your eyes. Vote the lesser of the evil into office. The vast majority of America were blind. They chose a orator over common sense. I know another great orator who formed a youth movenmet. He attempted to conquer the world through invasion and lies.

His philosophy was to sacrifice the few in order to give to the many. Taking from others was the best thing he knew how to do other than his sick attempt to conquer the world.

Term Limits!  As voters and tax payers we should demand it.  Louisiana State house just went to term limits and they have gotten more done for the state in 6 months compared to the last 30 years. 

The only way that I would even consider approving a Loan or Bailout.

1.  That the Corporate Board Members did everything possible, that includes liquidating their personal National and International Properties (including those hidden under relatives names), and used the money for the Corporation (none for themselves).  This has a precident in what a Private Business Owner must do to save his or her Company.
If not then send them to a prison like Guantanimo (BO said Guantanimo is closing), It is US Policy not to negotiate during hostage situations with terrorists (3 million US Jobs held hostage by Obese 3 for money), under the Patriot Acts.

2.  Complete to the penny (.01) public transparency of all money spent.

3.  Re introduct the technology that was literally crushed by GM, the EV1, electric car with real improvements.

4.  Back the renewable technologies that have been proven to work (since 1950).  Sugarcane to Ethanol (note: proven that Corn to Ethanol not effective, per US Dept Energy and US Dept Agriculture, UN World Bank). 

5.  Build the renewable technologies vehicles in the US that do not require a complete change to the infrastructer (trillions USD).  Specifically, like the 3 million E100, and over 6 million Flex Fuel Vehicles (not including the Transportation Vehicles) currently built by GM, Ford, Toyota, VW, Peugot (not in the US).

6.  Stop putting multimillion USD advertisements on Television, we are not buying what you are saying.

7.  Defeat NAFTA and CAFTA and bring back ALL the Autoworker Jobs to the US.

8.  No more building in Mexico and Canada that includes parts.  No preassembly in Mexico and Canada and shipping to Michigan for the installation of one or two bolt or nuts.  No more nuts and bolts from China.  You claim that you are American Corporations, stop being Mexican, Canadian, Chinese.  Any "subcontracting" must be American and meet the same requirements.

9.  The Obese 3 (GM, Ford, Chrysler) must go to the Banks and Financial Institutions that were Bailed Out before they ask for anything.  If their credit sucks so bad that they cannot obtain loans from the Bailed Out Financial Institutions then that says that no one should bail them out or loan any money.

10.  No legal loop holes, no excuses, like "well that 30 million USD bonus was planned in 2007"or "well that is how we do business, sending our employees to Spas".

11.  Default is at Credit Card Interest Rates.  10 to 23 percent interest.  With reposessions (counted at manufacturing cost, not retail).  This includes all Corporate Board Member and Relatives (hidden assets) properties,nationally or internationally.

Unfortunately you are correct, but the one thing people will remember is in 2 years they can vote all of them out.  They can get a national bill placed on the plate for the incoming administration that states that lobbying in any way shape or form is illegal and severe penalties up to and including losing all assets and accounts regardless of where they are located are forfeited and a minimum jail sentence of 20 years is mandatory, no parole is the only sentence.

Start taking things away from Government and they will listen.  Remove thier health care and private jets as it costs to much to maintain.  Remove the tax status and make it even with the typical American citizen.

Get rid of the electoral college and then the vote will end the way its suppose too.

Problem is, is no one in our government is viable or responsiblie for their actions as they want companies to be, not banks just companies.

Revolution but peaceful like others around the world. Get rid of the both parties and the corruption that comes with them. This is in answer to those below. Re-structure the government and hold new elections and have international observers in every precinct to make sure there is no problems.

No solution will come out of either party to the complex globally integrated problems we faced. Our founders always believed, despite their shortcomings, that a revolution every now and then would be good for the country. Well, Every now and then has arrived and will America rise to that challenge and put down their Ipods and other consumer devices designed to keeps us in touch but not really in touch?

I think someone asked who should we hire if we fire the big 3 execs?  I say david-475776. lol!

Seriously these guys should be fired.  They didn't have the common sense to not rush to washington on jets and they didn't have the common sense to bring a business plan with them. 

Though I do agree with people here, it is really suspicious that Paulson is still giving money to AIG, but doesn't give the auto industry a second thought.  

Jerry D. Williamson:  You are mistaken in your belief that Federal government employees don't pay taxes like all other Americans.  We pay Federal, State, and Local Income Tax, Social Security and Medicare Tax, Property Tax - if we own a house, Sales Tax, Gas Tax, fund our retirement, etc.  I don't really know what you mean by

 Remove the tax status and make it even with the typical American citizen.

Progress means guaranteeing that no one ever loses their job again?  That is nothing but an illusion.

This situation is exactly what bankruptcy was meant to address, but no, they want to spend my money to give it to people who don't know how to run a business.  Up theirs.

What about the airlines that filed for bankruptcy?  They still operated!  And in order to operate, there were still PLENTY of employees.

The Republicans use fear tactics to steal my liberties, the Democrats use fear tactics to steal my money.  They are all crooks.

Politics has always got in the way of progress when it was most needed.  Political leaders of both stripes have screwed America. It's that simple. You've been living under a rock to not understand otherwise.

Here we go again, politics getting in the way of progress

Why should we throw money at the big 3 when they don't even know how they are going to spend it?  You can't go to your local bank to get a loan for a stick of gum without a detailed plan on how you'll pay back the loan.  But the big 3 expect the tax payers to bail them out without a comprehensive business plan?

If they think they are going to crash before they can come up with a plan in december, then they need to pull a Palin, put those jets on EBAY, cut their high paying executive salaries and use that money to pay the bills!

ohiogal - I think you need a new bank if you can't get a stick of gum.  A detailed plan is going to be fluff to make all you dummies sleep better at night at the end of the day they have to get bailed out and every day that passes costs money. 

I understand that they need to re-structure.  Fire the CEO's, I don't care but we can't lose millions of jobs.  They need to get this done quick.  Everyday that this story is the headline they lose more money.  Pretty soon $25b won't be enough.  Maybe we should drag it out until that number doubles.  How will you like it then?

Maybe none of you like american made vehicles but the fact of the matter is that there are millions do but the longer we drag this out the more nervous that buyer becomes.  This drawn out mess is taking what is left of the american auto industry and killing it. 

Not over it, 25 billion is in addition to the 25 billion that has already been allocated for retooling for the "FUTURE", that makes 50 to start and you know that won't be enough to pull off a complete restructuring of a failed industry. At the present cash burn rate that these three companies are experiencing, it's a drop in the bucket.

All the hopes are placed on electric vehicles that the same executives will acknowledge are not really ready for market. Even if they were ready, who's going to buy a $40K electric car that has a range of forty miles, when they are without a job or credit? Our congresspeople?? I think not!!

The logical next step is to let these dinosaurs become crude oil, and restructure under bankruptcy protection so they can finally deal a death blow to the UAW and make it possible to become profitable. There are just too many vehicles out there to sustain three giant automobile manufacturers in the US. They already produce vehicles overseas, that use Cng that would be alot more practical at this time than electric-there is not enough electrical infrastructure in place to support a fleet of electric vehicles of any magnitude. The "Pickens Plan" would make alot more sense.

Weeb - The 1st $25 billion has not been given to the auto makers.  They do still sell vehicles but by keeping this story front page news and by dragging our feet we are killing their chances of a recovery. 

All hopes are not placed on electric vehicles.  Right now this minute GM has more vehicles that get better than 30 MPG, more than ANY OTHER auto maker including Toyota and Honda. 

I don't disagree that the car market is shrinking, like every other market.  They do need to adjust but they don't have to die unless we, as a nation, kill them. 

I agree that the CEO's of these companies have been living behind rose colored glasses they need to go, as does their advertising agency.  Nobody on this vine knows how far GM has come over the past 5 - 10 years and that is their fault for not getting the message out.  Also, to some extent, people seem to be unwilling to listen to the progress.

not over it-

What? I don't need a new bank, you missed the point.  Maybe I need to go to YOUR bank, because every loan i ever received came with oodles of papers detailing payment plans, what happens if i default, reference information, interest information, etc. etc. 

These three losers had no installment plan, no restructure plan, no anything! They couldn't come up with a plan to survive the hearing of congress. All they could talk about cutting the union workers wages but didn't even think to cut their own wages. 

When the congress man asked them to sell their jet today and fly back commercial not one of them could raise their hand and agree to that.  They drove their companies into the ground and they want us to sacrifice when they themselves can't?

A detailed plan is going to be fluff to make all you dummies sleep better at night at the end of the day they have to get bailed out and every day that passes costs money. 

 You know I think you and the big 3 are on the same page.  They didn't believe in plans.  So while companies like Japan made innovations, investments, plans and deadlines they resulted in better products and excelled in an industry that american's created.

Actually I take that back.  I think the big 3 did have plans, but they revolved around crushing their own electric car, getting their lobbyists to deregulate the system so that they made subpar cars (even as they strangely made better cars in europe),  cranking out over-sized cars while killing their small car market, making deals with the oil industry, and giving their CEO's healthy budget bonuses. 

All those plans, and not one of those three had an iota of sense to make a plan of how not get clowned by members of congress.   

As far as democrats being as bad as republican....fyi the democrats have controlled the house for quite a while, passing bullcrap bills for money they recieve, and turn to point the finger at the republicans....get it right or look into who's controlling what in congress before pointing nubby little fingers at someone....the democrats are doing everything in their power to get the ..injection of money to the big 3 passed, have been right from the start, and they helped put them there. get the dem's out of office, shoot the unions out the door, and fire money grubbing exec's, and they probably won't need a dime.

The problem with what your saying is that they didnt have a 3/4ths majority. This means that every measure they would have passed or tried to pass could or was vetoed. Unfortunately they didnt have the 3/4 majority they needed to get any major legislation done. Now we all know this is a fact, so there slim majority meant nothing. Further it has ben the Bush administation that's into helping the "good ol boys". Wonder how much money Bushs oil buddys have made in the last 8 years, or how about Cheneys old company Halliburton? Truth be told this was caused by Democrats and Republicans and as long as people like you continue to blame one party this will continue. As long as we are pitted against each other politicians win. We all have brains sadly most people dont use them=(

Right on Lombardo,,,all i've been hearing since Obama won is that nothing will change and that the Democrats have been in control since 2006. But what these people don't want to say is just what you brought up,,,the Democrats DID NOT have control due to the 3/4 majority and Bush's Veto POWER. Come Jan. 21st we will see a new Congress and the change will be evident.

The reason that the other countries including Europe do NOT allow Mexican and Canadian cars from the Obese 3 into their countries is not because of what they stated it is because they cannot meet nor exceed the International TUV Safety Standards, nor get the required current mileage (kilometers) per gallon (liter).

I had lived there before and had to get special waivers for my American Car.

If you believe the Obese 3's excuses, you have to ask yourself, how come their European Models, not available in the US, are doing so well.  Ford AG, 65 Miles Per Gallon.  GM Opel.  Lets take it one step further, 3 Million E100 and over 6 Million Flex Fuel Vehicles, not including transports, built by GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, Peugot.

Next you are going to say something else like oh, the International TUV Safety Standards are not as good as the US DOT (Department Of Transportation) Safety Standards.  According to Survivalbility by Category that is not true.  Who do you think bought the Politicians to pressure the US DOT to make the US DOT change the Standards to prevent the importation of the "Foreign" Vehicles, which backfired because now GM, Ford cannot bring in their own high mileage European Models into the US.  Nor can they bring in the E100, nor Flex Fuel Vehicles that they produce in South America (since the 1950s).

Before you spout off about "American" Jobs, remember NAFTA and CAFTA.  Most of the US Jobs are assembly of Mexican and Canadian parts, or adding a couple of nuts and bolts made in China, and calling it Made in America.  As previously stated if they want to be "American" then all the parts must be from the US, with US Citizens in the US Assembling them.  Proof go to the dealership autoparts and read the labels, Made in ........., Assembled in ...............

I really believe that holding 3 Million US Citizens Hostage is a criminal act.  3 Million US Jobs will be lost if the Obese 3 fail.  If these 3 Million were so worried, I do not see them storming the Frankenstein Castle, Obese 3 Corporate Board Members homes, yet.  And I do not mean burning them in effegy either.

..."The problem with what your saying is that they didnt have a 3/4ths majority"...

Are you saying that we might as well not even try unless we have a majority?  Of course it is easier if we have the majority and democratic president but there is no excuse for the lack of effort our congress has made in the past 2, 4,6 8, years.

If my democratic party had an effective leader that could work WITH the republicans we could get something done.  Nancy Pelosi and Terry Reid have done and absolutely pathetic job for us.  You have to play the hand you were dealt.  This entire congress has been a disgrace.  Dem's and Rep's alike.

Not over it, Its Harry "The War Is Lost" Reid. And you are correct, the Dems 8 years ago put on the blinders and shut the doors..... Now I see the chant for "Unity" and "Must Work Together" and so on. Unfortunately we must work together or suffer a much longer and deeper recession. I think the Republicans will step up, but if the shoe were on the other foot I wouldn't count on it.

I suspect the UAW is hoping their contributions to Obama and the Democrats results in pouring money into the automakers.

You got any evidence to back up all of that ranting?

How exactly do you know if the assembly-line workers are lazy? Have you worked side by side with them?

This is not a UAW problem. This problem is that GM isn't selling enough cars. Not GM is losing money on the cars they sell. There is a very big difference between the two.

The only long-term solution with viability for the industry is pre-packaged Chp 11 bankruptcy.  I don't see these companies going completely under (Chp 7).  There is still alot of value in this industry.  But the pay structure (UAW and management) is way too high for the market to bear...and the market has repeated purchased fewer and fewer of their vehicles.  They wised up and starting building the big rigs...with big rigs you can charge a higher price = higher profit...and amortize the bloated UAW contract costs into that vehicle and be somewhat competitive on quality....they just cannot compete on quality on the smaller/lower priced vehicles....you cannot shave $1,500 of quality out of a $15,000 car and expect it to be as good as a Toyota.  As fate would have it....gas prices spiked and nobody wants a big rig anymore.  I blame management and the UAW...they got themselves into this huge mess....they should find a way to get out of it without taxpayer dollars. 

KC77, when the UAW consistently demands more and more and more while profits decline, they ARE part of the problem.  You cannot always have growth, not even in your own paycheck, and if you insist on it in bad times for the business, the business goes under.  Please explain how that is not related...

Why not Congress and the Senate do it every year don't they?

Bingo!  UAW chief has already said no concessions!  Unions are just like big government.  Once they get their hooks in you they never let go, even after your dead!

Over powerful union casualties

Steel industry in the 1978 - Execs to unions -  pay increase or add pollution restriction equipment.  Union -wages.  Those that took the wages are gone went under by 1982.

Pullman Standard - needed to cut wages, union won, Pullman standard GONE.

PPG - asked unions & Management of all plants to start sharing health care costs.   All complied but Ford City Pa plant.  Ford City PA was the only one closed.

For this industry to survive all parties have to go on a diet including the Federal.  How about suspending the Corporate taxes on the big 3 for a couple of years!  How about states doing their part by not collecting sales taxes on GM, FORD & Chrysler products for a couple of years!

Extend CAFE & polution standards, so R & D can be absorbed in the natural product cycle meaning less expensive, and just let them have the Bailout 25 Billion loan be used as cash.  And how about hauling the union in and telling them, no money to the company unless they accept wage, benefit, working practices that are prevelant at Honda, Toyota, and Nissan.  The execs have cut, but they can dump more perks including the stupid corporate jets.

This will save the industry.   

You elected two lawyers who's clients are (Campaign Contributions, Electoral College Votes):

Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.

Sources Encyclopediae from (1990s to 2007).
 
Especially, ISDA. The People that brought you:  the 60 to 100 Trillion USD (it is not 700 Billion USD US Economic Crisis) Global Economic Crisis.  These people will be back for more just like GM, Ford, Chysler, September 2008, 25 Billion, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, to milk the cash cow.  updated add: AIG, Billions USD.  The 60 to 100 Trillion USD does not include the usary interest protected by the Delaware Court of Chancery.

Source: International Swaps and Derrivatives Association Incorporated At Delaware, isda.org.

 
Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]

1 Delaware Corporate Notebook

2 Delaware General Fund 2007 by Category

Encyclopedias

So yes, this documentation backs up what Com Sen stated.  It is payback time for the Major Campaign Contributors (Millions USD, near Billions USD).  You thought those $400 USD contributions meant something compared to Millions USD.  LOL.  How much do you think it costs to rent Campaign Offices in every State on short term leases, try maybe $400 a day times however many there were.  LOL.

There also the indirect Contributions to the Party and "donations" like paying the rent on a building (Campaign Office) and then giving it to the Candidate.

This is why when all these names (listed above) started to pop up on the Bailout lists, I kept saying no.  And many fools kept saying, we have to.  This is why I kept saying where the money came from and is going to.  I followed the money.  It was almost stated by numerous Television programs and newspapers, "Election Bought", until it was squelched, by the Corporate Board Members, yes, boys and girls, most Media are Corporations incorporated at Delaware.

By location who do you think the Bailouts helped, for the Electoral College Votes.

http://realestate.msn.com/Buying/Article_busweek.aspx?cp-documentid=10856357>1=35000
http://realestate.msn.com/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=10857148

The post election Electoral College Votes (Maps) support the previous statements.

Also why do you think there was such a immediate "Time Limit" and the Bailout had to be passed even with so many loop holes, that it looked like a seeve.  Call it Pre Election Promises to those on the list.  Welcome to "CORPORATE AMERICA".

Hey, don't forget the head of the UAW flew in on a private jet too....and how do those politicians get around?  You can bet the majority aren't flying commercial.  Who is fooling who?

UAW doesn't count they all vote democrat even without ACORN to sign them up

Mortgage Giant Paid GOP Consulting Firm $2M To Lobby Against Tough Regulatory Bill In 2005

WASHINGTON, Oct. 20, 2008

(AP) Freddie Mac secretly paid a Republican consulting firm $2 million to kill legislation that would have regulated and trimmed the mortgage finance giant and its sister company, Fannie Mae, three years before the government took control to prevent their collapse.

.cbsnews.com /stories/ 2008/10/20/ national/ main4531578.shtml? source=related_story

Freddie Mac and American International Group Inc., two companies bailed out by the U.S. government as the financial crisis unfolded, each contributed $250,000 for last month's Republican National Convention, Federal Election Commission filings show. The money went to the local host committee for the convention in St. Paul, Minnesota, which raised $50 million. The committees can accept unlimited amounts from corporations, unions and individuals. While the donors' names were posted on the committee's Web site, the amounts they gave were not released until the FEC reports.

.fec.gov /finance /disclosure /srssea. shtml

Lead by example? The UAW workers see their executives getting constant pay raises and perks, everything must be fine? Boss man couldn`t be getting multi million dollars  salary and perks if things were bad?

Who lead them down this path and set the example? Just dumb auto workers, the CEOS have the brains?

KC77, when the UAW consistently demands more and more and more while profits decline, they ARE part of the problem.  You cannot always have growth, not even in your own paycheck, and if you insist on it in bad times for the business, the business goes under.  Please explain how that is not related..

It's not related because it's not reality. The UAW has had so many concessions they quite literally wouldn't be a union anymore if they accepted any more price reductions in pay. A beginner GM assembly like worker makes $14 per hour. Even if you live in southern states that's not much.The  average American worker makes $25 per hour. Foreign assembly line workers that assemble cars in the US now average $30 per hour.

Check out this article, and this is from 2007. Here.

Again make it a fair playing field, limit the amount of foriegn cars sold, apply a 30-50% tarrif on those cars thata are sold here, provide the American companies the same incentives used to get the foriegn companies here to build their companies. 

All of that adds up to more than a 25 billion dollars loan. 

And those incentives were free to the foriegn car companies not something they have to pay back.

Our Congress and Senate needs a lesson in humility, vote them out, if Dodd was so smart then Fannie and Freddie would not have crashed.

They are failures both Dodd and Franks need to be removed.  

Having them in charge of the house finance committee is like having Iran in charge of nuclear disarmament in the UN. (useless nations) it is completely absurd. 

Tariffs are ineffective in the US.  Most "foreign" cars are assembled here in the USA by Americans.  The initial stock market crash of 1929 was caused by tighening the money supply to stop borrowing to buy stocks.  When the borrowing stopped, the market began to decline.  Panic followed because the stock was now worth less than the loans used to purchase them. 

Next in 1930 a huge tariff bill was passed to protect industry from foreign competition.  There were 800 new or increased tariffs passed.  Some tariffs were increase by a factor of 5.  All nations retaliated by not buying American products, causing huge inventories, waves of layoffs and closures of manufacturing followed.  With a greatly decrease market for farm products farmers began losing their farms. 

We just had a huge amount of layoffs this past months, because of tight money and business owners lack of confidence in the new administration's stated direction.  Do you really want even more? 

The next page will be that the greedy rich people are hording money, so let's tax them more and do public projects to improve our infrastructure.  That was 1932, 1934, 1936, . . . .

You want to limit the number of Mexican and Canadian GM, Ford and Chyslers sold here?  And even tax them 30- 50%,  are you insane.
The only vehicles that are really Made in USA, are at GO/GO Government Owned Government Operated Factories, to build US Military Equipment.  Even the US Military stopped trusting the Obese 3, when they started "outsourcing" everything, making it impossible by LAW to buy from them (Obese 3) without special Congressional Waivers.
The closest commercial vehicles that are Made in the USA are Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA.  With the money from profits being reinvested to build more factories in the USA, something they learned in the USA from Business 101, that the Obese 3 never learned, and won't.  Last Bailout/Loan for the Obese 3 was used to build another factory in Mexico, 2002, and to get higher salaries, while shutting down another US Factory.
I really do not believe that a Mexican, Canadian or Chinaman in their own country waving an American Flag is an American.  You seem to have bought off on their lie.
If you knew why the Japs and Koreans are building in the USA, then maybe you would understand.  Most of these people (Japs and Koreans) are the old ones, that survived Post WWII Japan and later the Korean War.  The old ones from Japan are "repaying" the US for the MacArthur Plan, that enabled them to survive starvation and death.  See movie Grave of the Fireflies (Japan).  Tae Guk Gi, for Korean War and Post Korean War living conditions (survival).

Unfortunely, the younger Japs and Koreans are more like our Corporate Board Members and have stated that it is more expensive to maintain the USA investments and recommended in Position Papers a move to China.  The younger ones are gaining a majority since most of the old ones are dying off.  The specific locations this would effect/affect: California, Oregon, Tennesse, Texas, Washington, New Mexico, Arizona, Louisianna, Mississippi, Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, Nevada, Virginia, etc..

Jerry D Williamson

Again make it a fair playing field, limit the amount of foriegn cars sold, apply a 30-50% tarrif on those cars thata are sold here, provide the American companies the same incentives used to get the foriegn companies here to build their companies. 

All of that adds up to more than a 25 billion dollars loan. 

And those incentives were free to the foriegn car companies not something they have to pay back.

Our Congress and Senate needs a lesson in humility, vote them out, if Dodd was so smart then Fannie and Freddie would not have crashed.

They are failures both Dodd and Franks need to be removed.  

Having them in charge of the house finance committee is like having Iran in charge of nuclear disarmament in the UN. (useless nations) it is completely absurd. 

#9.1 - Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:40 PM HST

You don't like Barney the purple dinosaur?  LOL.

Add to post #9.3.

Announced new Honda Plant in Indiana just built first vehicle, so add Indiana to the list that will be effected/affected if the Japs leave the US.

Another poster from Virginia was almost crying because of the anti "Jap" car sentiments, the company that she works for is American and manufacturers parts for the Jap car companies.  They are planning on closing down due to the anti Jap sentiments and going to China.  Because they (Japs) believe they are not wanted here in the USA anymore.  I wrote a letter to that Jap car Corporation and they are now reconsidering, they do not want to "taint" their honor in the US; but they also do not want to stay where they are not wanted.

Gee, David, how many times did you use "Jap" in your letter to them?  What a hypocrite.  I imagine the Japanese and Korean taxpayers/voters are saying the SAME things about America as America says about Canada and Mexico - taking our jobs, blah blah. 

Japan has always had a soft spot for American culture, despite Ugly Americans they may sometimes meet - which is saying something since they are as Nationalistic and racist as Americans any day.  Payback is hardly why they build cars here - after the "Buy American" rage in the 80's, they came to America.  And actually did well with a good product.  The big 3 are not going to make it if they do not file bankruptcy and reorganize.

We have the "Fireflies" movie, and Totaro (love it), and Princess Mononoke (pretty cool) - all entertaining anime, with "Fireflies" being a sad story and depressing.  Nice cartoons, if you like anime.

David, just WHO are you that you can merely write a letter to a Japanese corporation and they will reconsider their business moves based on what you have to say in your letter?  Get over yourself!

James, the US auto makers have different cost structures than most of the import MFGS in this country, and yes they can be argued to death.

American unionized companies provide health care and retirement benefits to their employees, again at no cost? Well they did give up money in contracts for them.

Foreign manufactures have shifted some or all of that burden to their employees, 401k plans instead of defined benefits pension plans, employees contributing part of their already lower pay with some sort of company matching contribution, co-pay health insurance costs instead of the company paying for it all.

Most US auto plants also have many more long term employees, 20 - 30 year people still working, paid 5 or 6 weeks vacations, company also pays for that.

A shift of the burden from the companies to the worker. A competative edge.

Can we apply that to the banks as well and wall street!

DHL abandoned the US because of the favorable Politics toward UPS, FedEx.  You go research that.  You would be surprised what kind of Laws, Acts, Regulations can be passed against the competition when you have the US Politicians in your back pocket.

The US Economy has worsened and will get worse and the American Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA will not leave.  Until the old Japs and old Koreans in the Corporate Offices die off.  They feel that they owe the USA for the MacArthur Plan and their survival from starving to death after WWII and the Korean War  (US Rebuilding South Korea, prevented mass starvation under US Military Government).

The Political Corruption thing is not new.  This is why the Deutsche (Germans) Daimler Benz (aka Mercedes Benz) Corporation (AG, GmBH) dumped Chrysler.  They (Germans) could not stand (tolerate) the corruption in Chrysler (was in the Deutsche Zeitung (newspapers)).  And found out first hand how bad the corruption within Chyrsler was after the merger.  Chrysler refused to change and was rapidly dumped by Daimler Benz.

Ok david mr. smart guy...then why do we allow our industries to crumble and put people on the street instead of enacting laws, acts and regulations against those industries...stop fooling yourself fool....the foreign companies care nothing about US...so get on board or maybe you should move...we will get along just fine once the only people left here are the ones who truly believe in their country and support its poilicies no matter what...

take a gander at this one as well why you are captivated:

The Japanese auto companies are pulling a fast one on the Southern States
The average hourly pay at the Honda Plant in Talladaga is $15.00. The
Average worker at a Honda Plant in Japan gets close to $52.00 Hr.
including benefits . Honda is used to paying "UNION" wages in their home country
but are getting a bargain in Alabama. They are laughing all the way to the JAPANESE
bank where the real money goes!

WE ARE DOOMED. Americans have bought into the foreign companies/countries game plan. See you on the street where it is every man for theirself!!!

You said it. and since the government allowed to US Post Office to do the same thing how do we know that they are the right people to ask for money?  It is not. Give the money to the people in the form of vouchers to purchase a new car then let the government reimberse them for the ones remitted

Don't get me started on unions, they are the most anti institutional organization on earth, no wonder they get on so well with the DEMS. Many years ago they were needed but now they have outgrown there usefulness and only serve to inflate prices and bully people into doing what they want. the union leaders brain wash there membership into there false world of security. then they sit back and collect union dues as they tell the members to strike. They support the illegal actions that there members do and force companise to institute policies that cost more money and drive up prices.

You know why Jananese vehicles are better and make profit for there companies. They don't have UAW tell the workers they are being mistreated and underpaid, therefor driving down moral, and UAW insisting on more pay less work making the vehicle more cost effective for the company

Funny.  I enjoyed that one!

Yeah  .........  like we need another hand job from Sarah Palin

They burn it on all the above. but the biggest chuncks go to the bonuses and UAW's less work more pay policy

I hear that the cost for labor and benefits for the big three average more than $70 per hour while the labor and benefit cost for their foreign competitors in the USA are less than $50 per hour. 

If this is true, it doesn't take long to figure out where the money is going.

Legacy costs brought on by the UAW   $73/hr GM

Center For Automobile Research

I never mentioned union workers I was talking about the fat assed union leadership who are just as bad as the auto execs

Airlines-UNION, American automakers-UNION, Education-UNION.  Does anyone see a pattern here?

Yeah without the creation of unions in this country, medical benefits and retirements would not exist for the typical worker in the short version. 

Blame what you want all I see is a bunch of ranting by people who have never been inside a factory, or were fired or not chosen to work in one of them.

Great thing about the US everybody has an opinion.

Make the government do its job and it might not be this way.  Hold them accountible and stop voting them back in and it wouldn't be this way.

The current democratically controlled Congress has accomplished what in 2 years anyone?  Provide me one accomplishment that they have passed that will better America?  Just one please..

I enter a factory everyday.  In fact, I'm the boss.  The day the union comes knocking at the door is the day I walk.  All of my employees (28) produce quality products and make a decent wage.

Haggard

You must be an old man to remember when the unions were a good thing for this country.

It's been a long long time

That should apply to Franks and Dodd as well don't you agree?

Muhlarly at Ford knows what he is doing.  He rescued Boeing a few years ago even with a strong aircraft workers union.  If he'd have taken over Ford 1 year earlier, they may not have needed any help.  Bill Ford was a Terrible CEO, who overspent on environment improvements, backed away from the world car design concept, and rolled over to the unions. 

Chrysler has no hope.  Diamler put the brakes on R & D for the cars needed to compete.

GM deserves the most credit for the mess.  They were the UAW target for the last two contracts.  They gave the Unions anything they wanted thinking they had so much money, that they could bankrupt Ford and Chrylser on the next turndown.  They tried the same stupid trick in the 80's.  Each time it's cause market share loss  for all three.

AKMIL,

I agree with you in principle on the "fair day's work for a fair day's pay" concept, but there was a time when the conditions I described were management's interpretation of that idea. If management had unfettered control, our factories (what few we have left) would be like those asian shoe & soccerball sweatshops. As an aside, the whole push behind the Industrial Revolution was the introduction of "labor saving devices" , so that people would be freed up from the "dangerous, rote and mundane tasks" of modern society to pursue "creative and meaningful" endeavors.

Yo Haggard,

If you cannot produce a car...or anything in a factory in an efficient and safe manner...you will be out of business...PERIOD.  The unions were needed at a time in history...no doubt about it...so were buggy whips.  You cannot run a business with union constraints in this global economy...over time it will sink the ship....airlines, autos, education...all union...hmmm....all of them suck!

Well...fewer and fewer people are buying their cars....so the only way your theory holds is if gov't puts tarrif or limit on foreign nameplates sold in the USA.  Now, I would pay money to see that one.  California is a democrat state...they would ride bikes before buying an american car....the democratic party owns the unions...but the unions are only a small part of the constituency....even Obama is smart enough to see this one.

This country needs more unions. I thank the Democrats in Congress for their support.

You're kidding, right?

Let's unionize everything!  Great idea.  You think there is a mass exodus of companies now, what do you think would happen if every company let the unions in?  I'll tell you.  $8.00 for a loaf of bread, $12.00 for a gallon of gas, $40,000 for a car that breaks down in a couple of years...wait...the car thing already happens.  Sorry.

No, I'm not kidding. In my union trade I do the work of three men. That's the only way my union company can successfully bid against the non-union companies. My pay, with benefits, is appx. $36.00 per hour. Divide that by three and it comes to $12.00 per hour, benefits included. That's equal to or less than some non-union trade employees earn.

Most union employees don't make anything close to what UAW members make and we produce three times as much and the work is quality work. Our union companies compete very well against non-union companies.

You have your convictions and I have mine. I stand behind my convictions 100% and you can stand behind yours 100%. That's what is great about America. I respect your convictions and you should respect mine.

Mismanagement, excessive company salaried positions and unnecessary executive perks cause more company losses than does the cost of labor to produce the company's products.

I respect your convictions 100%.  There is NO denying the fact, however, that the UAW has RUINED the American auto industry.

Unions have killed nearly every industry over which they have had significant influence.  Textiles, steel, airlines, auto, flooring, just to name a few.  All are now either gone, in trouble or taking bankruptcy.  And, the cause is that cost of labor causes the industry to move outside of the US resulting in thousands of lost jobs.  If Unions were prohibited from funding election of politicians, there would be a real change in Union activities and their power to control. As a senior citizen and still working in the 7th year of my career, it has always been my opinion that it is the weak and insecure that need to have a Union.  The strong and self sufficient can handle their own negotiations.  As for the Union man working three jobs, that is, in my opinion baloney.  I have seldom seen a union person even working hard on one job.  There are usually two or three, one to drive the vehicle, one to give directions and one to supervise the other two.

I haven't seen all union workers, but for the ones I have see, Al, I agree with you.  Every time I drive around, I see 4 or 5 city trucks and about 12 or 13 guys standing around.  Then I see on the news that there was a bulb out on a streetlight, coincidentally, at the same exact location where I saw all of that tax money standing around. 

There are many good unions.  Unions do have a place, the problem is that some have decided to run companies from the back seat.  A companies life is dependent upon making a profit so there is a tomorrow if thing slow down or more opportunities to expand in the future.  The UAW has crossed the lines with the help of politicians to the point that even if the manufacturer closes a plant, the workers still get their wages!  The jobs bank provision means 12 - 15,000 workers get paid even if there is no work!  The free wage/lunch is over in this industry.  The competition is laughing at the big three.  They and the UAW are an embarrasment to the nation and our industry!

Al-314956 wrote: "Unions have killed nearly every industry over which they have had significant influence.  Textiles, steel, airlines, auto, flooring, just to name a few."

That's your opinion. I say it was company mismanagement, excessive executive and managerial positions, excessive management perks and compensation, and failure to modernize.  

"If Unions were prohibited from funding election of politicians, there would be a real change in Union activities and their power to control."

If corporations were prohibited from funding the election of politicians, there would be a real change  in corrupt corporate activities, shady accounting practices and their power to control federal spending.

"it has always been my opinion that it is the weak and insecure that need to have a Union."

It has always been my opinion that it is the strong and secure that demand a union.

"As for the Union man working three jobs, that is, in my opinion baloney." 

I didn't say I worked three jobs. I said I did the work of three men and that's a fact. I'd bet money you couldn't do my job. I don't think you would have the stamina. I think you would quit and run home the first day. Try hand working a 40,000-50,000 square feet floor of concrete, 14 to 16 hours a day, day after day after day. Try working nonstop, bent over and on your knees without a break or lunch period, not able to stop until the job is done.

Try working in the cold elements of winter and the scorching hot weather of summer, nonstop, for 14-16 hours a day. Try carrying 100 pound steel forms all day long, nonstop. Try finishing 5,000 square feet of concrete by yourself. I've worked as long as 37 hours straight without a break on many occasions. I've worked dozens of 100 hour weeks. I've worked one job for10-12 hours a day and then driving to a night job and working another 8-10 hours for three days in a row. I've worked many weeks with only 5-10 hours sleep the whole week. You don't have a clue. You don't know what real work is.

The japs would never be working 40,000-50,000 square feet floor of concrete, 14 to 16 hours a day.  They would use more people or it would be automated (something invented in the USA, used in Deutscheland (Germany) by BBC (German Contractor) when I managed a Critical WMD Security Construction Project).  And it would have been done quicker with much better quality.

Looks like you got jipped by your Union, that probably determined how many people could do the work.  Forgot Union Dues.  Work smarter not harder.

Ron, I congratulate you on your insight.  Being a union guy, that is very impressive.  Unions were created to protect the un protected workers.  It worked, until the world became one economy and we have to compete with companies in all countries.  I would have said get rid of unions, but I like your "renegotiate" idea.  It has to be a partnership.  Not crazy about the government oversight thing as I don't think the government has a clue about business oversight.

Not to defend the Democrats, but you really have to look at the ultimate causes.

Krupp, selling artillery to Germans, French, British prior to WWI.

Standard Oil of California, William Randolf Hurst, prior to WWII.

Goodyear, Bell Helicopters (Lady Bird Johnson), prior to Vietnam.

With that said look at who the two lawyers that got elected owe as their clients (Campaign Contributions, Electoral College Votes).

Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.

Recognize them?

If this Loan is passed I would want the following conditions.

1.  That the Corporate Board Members did everything possible, that includes liquidating their personal National and International Properties (including those hidden under relatives names and lawyers), and used the money for the Corporation (none for themselves).  This has a precident in what a Private Business Owner must do to save his or her Company.
If not then send them to a prison like Guantanimo (BO said Guantanimo is closing), It is US Policy not to negotiate during hostage situations with terrorists (3 million US Jobs held hostage by Obese 3 for money), under the Patriot Acts.

2.  Complete to the penny (.01) public transparency of all money spent.  This includes complete public access to the previous accounting of all money spent, especially, the Political Accounts from previous years.

3.  Re introduct the technology that was literally crushed by GM, the EV1, electric car with real improvements.

4.  Back the renewable technologies that have been proven to work (since 1950).  Sugarcane to Ethanol (note: proven that Corn to Ethanol not effective, per US Dept Energy and US Dept Agriculture, UN World Bank). 

5.  Build the renewable technologies vehicles in the US that do not require a complete change to the infrastructer (trillions USD).  Specifically, like the 3 million E100, and over 6 million Flex Fuel Vehicles (not including the Transportation Vehicles) currently built by GM, Ford, Toyota, VW, Peugot (not in the US).

6.  Stop putting multimillion USD advertisements on Television, we are not buying what you are saying.

7.  Defeat NAFTA and CAFTA and bring back ALL the Autoworker Jobs to the US.

8.  No more building in Mexico and Canada that includes parts.  No preassembly in Mexico and Canada and shipping to Michigan for the installation of one or two bolt or nuts.  No more nuts and bolts from China.  You claim that you are American Corporations, stop being Mexican, Canadian, Chinese.  Any "subcontracting" must be American and meet the same requirements.

9.  The Obese 3 (GM, Ford, Chrysler) must go to the Banks and Financial Institutions that were Bailed Out before they ask for anything.  If their credit sucks so bad that they cannot obtain loans from the Bailed Out Financial Institutions then that says that no one should bail them out or loan any money.

10.  No legal loop holes, no excuses, like "well that 30 million USD bonus was planned in 2007"or "well that is how we do business, sending our employees to Spas".

11.  Default is at Credit Card Interest Rates.  10 to 23 percent interest.  With reposessions (counted at manufacturing cost, not retail).  This includes all Corporate Board Member and Relatives (hidden assets) properties,nationally or internationally.

The reason that the other countries including Europe do NOT allow Mexican and Canadian cars from the Obese 3 into their countries is not because of what they stated it is because they cannot meet nor exceed the International TUV Safety Standards, nor get the required current mileage (kilometers) per gallon (liter).

I had lived there before and had to get special waivers for my American Car.

If you believe the Obese 3's excuses, you have to ask yourself, how come their European Models, not available in the US, are doing so well.  Ford AG, 65 Miles Per Gallon.  GM Opel.  Lets take it one step further, 3 Million E100 and over 6 Million Flex Fuel Vehicles, not including transports, built by GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, Peugot.

Next you are going to say something else like oh, the International TUV Safety Standards are not as good as the US DOT (Department Of Transportation) Safety Standards.  According to Survivalbility by Category that is not true.  Who do you think bought the Politicians to pressure the US DOT to make the US DOT change the Standards to prevent the importation of the "Foreign" Vehicles, which backfired because now GM, Ford cannot bring in their own high mileage European Models into the US.  Nor can they bring in the E100, nor Flex Fuel Vehicles that they produce in South America (since the 1950s).

Before you spout off about "American" Jobs, remember NAFTA and CAFTA.  Most of the US Jobs are assembly of Mexican and Canadian parts, or adding a couple of nuts and bolts made in China, and calling it Made in America.  As previously stated if they want to be "American" then all the parts must be from the US, with US Citizens in the US Assembling them.  Proof go to the dealership autoparts and read the labels, Made in ........., Assembled in ...............

I really believe that holding 3 Million US Citizens Hostage is a criminal act.  3 Million US Jobs will be lost if the Obese 3 fail.  If these 3 Million were so worried, I do not see them storming the Frankenstein Castle, Obese 3 Corporate Board Members homes, yet.  And I do not mean burning them in effegy either.