'Card check' best hope for auto workers union?

I personally know someone who has worked for Ford Motor for a little more than ten years. She is second in command at her building, which is a parts plant. Now what I am going to say does not by any means represent all UAW workers, and does not apply to all UAW workers at her plant, but.......

At this plant they pick parts that have been ordered, it is a warehouses setting. Many of the UAW workers are scarce during the day and magicallyappear when the wages are shifted into overtime. The management can not directly approach this issue, it has to be taken into consideration by the UAW rep first. It provides the environment that these workers do not indeed work for Ford, but for the UAW. Management can not manage their people, they have to manage a UAW rep! She had to work a sexual harassment case within the plant, and it turned into a three ring circus. Many of these workers are rude, disrespectful, and know they can get away with a lot as there are seldom any real consequences. ***Again, I am not saying this is typical of all UAW workers, but a few bad apples make the pot stink when they can not be removed.

Why does the UAW think a person who is basically doing a job they can learn in one day is worth any where near $70.00 /hr. Most of these jobs are worth paying about 15.00/hr and that's it.

hello, unions are like state and federal jobs. you have security,fair wages,good benefits,retirement etc. don't knock a good thing for a hard working man. todays corporations has everyone on less than 20 hrs work a week.to avoid a benefit package.a dollar or two over minimun wage.no retirement,no arbitration.wear pink shoes to work,your fired.corporations damaged Americans,BIG TIME...........their BIG and UGLY!!!........................

Has anyone checked the price difference of any product from a company that has moved overseas or to Mexico? You can be assured that the price of that product didn't drop to the level to reflect the cost savings of lower wages. Don't be so hasty to blame unions for Wall street traded companies lack of quality products and fair pay versus their concern to provide shareholders with record profits!!!

I went on a field trip with my son to the Ford Rouge River plant a few years ago. What a joke. We watched one guy aligning windshields onto the vehicles. The line was so slow that he would align one, then sit down, pick up his newspaper, then get up a minute or two later and do the next one. We moved on and we watched below us as a guy was assemblying part of a window. It appeared to be power windows. Anyway, he had a hard time plugging his part in and had to stop the line. It appeared that the other part that he was trying to match his to was defective. We watched for 35 minutes while someone (foreman??) came over to inspect the part. That took about 15 minutes, then someone else showed up 20 minutes later and replaced the defective part. Once that was done, they started the line again. While the line was down, everyone either was visiting or was laying down. We walked on for about 10 minutes and the line shut down again. We waited about 15 minutes, but it did not start back up. What a display of ineptness. The defective part was only about 4 stattions back, but I assume that the guy below wasn't authorized to do someone else's"job". My son was asking me why people were sleeping. I had no explanation for him.

By the way, the $70 per hour is somewhat misleading.  They don't actually make that wage in dollars and cents on thier paycheck.  It is the wage that it costs the company.  $30 to $35 is more like it.  When someone says the work is worth $15 per hour, the cost to the company is in the $30 range.  Is $35 per hour too much?  Maybe.  But if they were productive at $35 per hour it wouldn't be so bad.  If you don't get the work done in 40 hours a week, we'll pay you time and a half and double time to do it on the weekend.  The incentive is too do less so you can get paid more.  Kind of like Obama's America.

1 in 10 jobs in this country depends on the auto industry. Is yours one of those 10?

I've read that the unions are proud of there concessions to help America through this current fiscal crisis.  I have never read what these concessions were (this is not an attempt to union bash - I simply want to know what they feel a concession is).  Has anyone put together a document describing what union concessions have been made?  The same question can be made for the 25 million $$ CEO's.  What concessions have they made to help their company.  It's interesting that everyone is irate about corporate jets.  A better question by congress (for the highly paid CEO), the unions, and the public should be - why someone needs to be paid millions of $$ to manage or mismanage a company in the first place.

I'm still baffled:  why is one side for secret ballot and the other thinking there will be more unionization?  The article doesn't explain the basic provisions of the legislation!

I seriously fail to see why the unions are taking the blame for this one. The auto industry has been floundering for quite a long time now and it is not because of labor costs. If you want to blame someone (altho one could argue it would not be an easy task to put the blame on one group or sector of the car making business) blame the partnership of the oil industry and Detroit fat cats. For years we have seen the decline of the american built automobile. The designs are not decided by the unions. They only build what they are told. The oil companies and Detroit have for years continued to produce and tell people they want big gas guzzling mega cars..suv's..hummers...3 ton pickups and the like. The efficient well built cars of Asia became the preferred auto because they had vision and knew how to make cars that people saw themselves driving and being happy and safe in. As far as the southern auto plants..again..foriegn designs and state of the art plants that can easily be retooled to keep up with the different trends AND necessities of the car design and manufacturing industry. Unions or no unions, they take care of their workers..they make the business a sort of cooperative where all involved know the consequences of a poorly designed and built car.
unions cannot be blamed for this debacle..certainly not alone. And of course , the pay structure of this capitalist society is so far out of whack that to me it is almost incomprehensible that anyone would look at the unions and ask "What are YOU going to give up". Which would be asked by executives on their way to ask for a handout from the taxpayer, arriving on a $25,000 per flight private flying hotel.

Uniondude, I'm a floor supervisor in a UAW plant.  If you work in the industry you know that the statement, "It's a production line, you can't do less" is at best a little untrue and at worse, total BS.   If overtime pay is "punitive" as you put it, why do they scream when you cut the OT a little bit?  How often do you hear, or for that matter, say, "Guess we'll have to get that on Saturday" or Sunday, or the holidays?  Skilled trades put off work until the weekends which causes production shortages, which causes weekend work.  I'm not bashing the vast majority of UAW or any other union workers.  Most of them are good, hardworking people that want a fair wage for days work.  I agree with them.  I also realize that some of my holidays and my wage scale are due to working in a union facility.  Management causes alot of thier own misery with thier decisions.  But the bad side of the union cost money, causes us to keep horrible employees employed, and is helping to ruin our economy. 

This discussion has turned into union bashing when it started out about secret ballot organizing.  If the county sherriff made you show him your ballot at election time and he was running, wouldn't you feel a little intimidated? The Union and Management alike have absolutely no right to know how you vote on anything.  Why don't we make ballotting for union offials, local, region, and national public?  Every contract or election I have ever voted on was private.  There's a reason for that.  The union wants to be able to intimidate people to get the union into the shop and then decides on what rights it will or will not grant the membership.  Politicians are liars, and union leaders are politicians.  They are not to be trusted.  Keep the freedom of the secret ballot.  If the union is so strong and inviting, they will get into the shops.  They don't need peer pressure tactics to further thier adgenda.     

You know I keep seeing the $70 an hour number, folks I have been with GM 25 years and even with benefits it's no where near that number. People see something in the media and everyone takes it for real. That number might be for the WHITE collar workers, but not the BLUE collar workers.

If you've been with GM for 25 years, what is your hourly rate?  Remember to add in the COLA check you get every 3 months and other incentive checks and so forth.  Real money is real money.  What do you make real money before taxes.  That being said, of course it isn't $70 bucks an hour.  But for every dollar you payinto social security, GM puts in a dollar, too.  That should be added.  I pay $250.00 for part of my health care.  How much does GM pay for yours?  Average is about $500.00 a month.  Health and wellness programs that some do don't take part in, EAP programs, paying your union commiteemen to sit on thier butts all day, it adds up in a hurry.  The burden rate for a GM union employee is probably close to $70.00 an hour, but I agree you don't see most of it.  When the company supplies the figures, the people scoff and don't believe it.  As far as white collar verses blue collar, the supervisors and middle management get hit well before the union does.  Most of us don't get the secret stock options and bonuses that the union always claim we do.  We get our benefits cut long before they ask the mighty unions for concessions.

I don't know about mail-in ballots.  A lot of possibility of fraud there.  Most votes are usually held at a nuetral site as far as I know.  I think the vote should be in person.  Management or union should not be able to interfere with a secret vote.

You know ScottOhio, you sound very bitter, and unhappy. Maybe you should leave and go somewhere else. Oh and I have been in The Union and I have been managment, I started with GM when I was 18, I have three college degrees, and I have loved every minute that I have worked at the plants I have been fortunate to work at. My hourly rate is 29.95 if it's any of your business, and I have looked and calculated my pay it is not $70 an hour, it's under it, closer to the 50-60 range, and I know of a lot of other places without a Union that make 70 - 90 dollars an hour counting everything. Good day and good luck I hope the vain at the top of your head doesn't explode anytime soon!!!

TNUAWMEM74- Not really sure where that came from.  I am a little bitter.  I'm watching my plant get moved slowly to Mexico.  I'm watching friends, (from both union and salary) lose thier jobs.  I started here 22 years ago and moved to salary 12 years ago.  You and I make about the same wage.  And while you are right, it isn't any of my business what you make, you are the one saying you don't make anywhere near $70 an hour.  You could very well be right. The $60 dollar range might be closer to the truth.  I think unions are fine.  I think that as Americans we should have the right to form unions, negotiate contracts, and live with the results.  However, making the org. vote public is taking away our right to choose freely and vote our belief without fear of reprisal from BOTH sides.

What have I said that sounds bitter or unhappy?  I haven't bashed union workers.  Most of my friends are UAW members that work with me here in the plant every day.  Even they express frustration that we can't get rid of the people that don't follow the rules, show up late if at all. (Chronic absenteeism is a pet peeve of mine since it hampers our ability to function and increases EVERYBODYS workload.) I want to keep my job.  I'm not unhappy here.  This discussion was on secret ballots, not the relative merits of unions.  By the way, I'm duly impressed with your 3 college degrees, but why did you have to throw that into the mix?  Your insecurities are showing, my friend....... 

Commuterdog- At what point have I complained about your wages?  Or your right to a secure retirement?  You are right, I do benefit from the contract here as a salaried employee.  As a matter of fact, I said the same thing in one of my previous posts.  Maybe you didn't read it.  Which I can understand since I just went back and read yours.  You may be very well be a hard worker and great employee.  If so, you deserve the money.  But what about the guy further down the line that doesn't do his job worth a damn, doesn't care, doesn't come to work, and screws it up for the rest of us?  Oh, and by the way, he gets to stay when you get laid off because he was hired 3 days before you were and seniorty is the only thing that matters in a union shop.  You can't advance on your own merit.  You are probably a fine upstanding man, a great employee, and who knows maybe you spend your vacations buildng homes for the poor.  But when people see your UAW jacket they associate you with the bottom feeders that hang on to thier jobs thru union protectionism.  How many bad workers would lose thier good jobs if they had to survive on thier own merit and how much better would your workplace be?  How many of your sons and daughters would be able to get those jobs and keep them if you have instilled your good work ethics in them?  The great part of the union is protects good workers from a company's greed.  The bad part, and what will lead to thier demise, is the mindless protection of the slugs in your ranks.

Unions may get Obama and the Dems to add more protections to their over-paid, uncompetitive salaries.  But the unions cannot force legislation upon us that prevents us from buying what we wish.

Vote with your checkbook for the automobile of your choice.

I have no more sympathy for these unyielding and unrepentant unions or the poor management that allowed this once vital industry to be choked to death.

If unions would  only negoiate for wages and benefits and do nothing else it would be one thing. In reality the unions want to run the busniesses that they organize. With work rules and job title they slow down and almost bring to a stop productive activies. There can be only one boss and one loyalty. The unions in practice are only about unions. If this check bill passes this country will not have one manufacturing job left in 10 years and good paying service jobs will leave as well. Companies will not put up with the inefficiencies and hard headed arrogance and lack of sophistication of the local union leaders. This bill will be a disaster for working people and the American economy.

Is it just me or did the Big 3 D.A.s, I mean CEOS bring their obnoxious selves to DC in their Lear Jets, hats in hand, begging for money, thinking the taxpayer would hand it over just because they said they needed it?

If these are such powerful, intelligent individuals making mega millions in salaries and stock options, why didn't any one of them have a plan as to how they were going to spend the "loan" in their jacket pocket, instead of having to go back to their manses and sky suite offices and come up with one.  I think that would have added at least a glimmer of credibility to their request. (not much, though).

I think they like the Wall Street criminals still think they are just a little smarter and deserving than the average company and taxpayer.

Also, who really believes them when they say if their companies go bankrupt that millions will lose their jobs?  They've been lying to us from the beginning, why would they stop now?

The unions are the cancer that is killing this country.  They divide, lie (with out being held accountable...they just blame the big bad company for not agreeing to what they promised their customers).  They put themselves out of work and that work goes to non union companies who in turn make better products at better prices while that non union company makes money and the non union worker keeps his job.  By making it easier to organize they are signing the death warrent for all American industry.  They are just a middle man that takes money out of workers pockets while holding companies hostage.  Now the union wants to take away a mans right to cast a ballot away from the five goones that cornered him in the parking lot and forced him to sign a card.  Unions=organized crime.  They are no longer needed in this country.  

 I have worked in the automotive service industry for 35yrs.. I have been service dept. manager of Chrysler, GM, Nissan, BMW, and Jaguar dealerships, as a result I have hands on experience with nearly any vehicle you could think of. In the 80s the big three were trying to to get cars to market fast, to appeal to a change in consumer taste that changed overnight. There was no time for the R&D work that would have insured a quality product. As a result the imports were better cars although no one built better trucks than we did. In the late 80s and early 90s some of the asians were really the worst, you could'nt keep automatic transmissions in Camrys and Accords, and on a quite night you could listen to your civic or sentra rust, and 80s hyundai, well, we won't even go there. While at the same time the big three had worked the bugs out of the new platforms, granted, a little boring, but they were good dependable cars. Everyone had transmission and driveability issues through the 90s as heavy loads were placed on transmissions in an effort to get that last MPG and beat the emissions bugs with computor power. Since that time there are'nt really any stand out bad cars. Todays offerings from the big three are as good as anything from the rest of the world. Look to the Pontiac G8 and compare it to a BMW 5 series, the performance and overall specs are nearly identical, with only a slight difference in touch and feel quality, at nearly half the price its amazing that it compares at all. As for those of you who think all we build are gas guzzlers, drive a Nissan Pathfinder or Frontier and see what it does to your gas budget and have you all forgotten that you don't have to have a Hemi in your Chrysler 300, its a wonderful car to drive with plenty of power from a V-6. Mustangs and Challengers are both  available with V-6 power, good mpg and plenty of style. Worried about how long they will last? don't. No one has consistant major component failures anymore, thats a thing of the past. Devolopment technology today has all but eliminated those issues for everyone. The one point you have to remember is there are alot of computor controls in cars today and updates are common. Just think how often you get apple software updates that pop up on your computor screen for music downloads when your service advisor tells you your Altima PCM (powertrain control module) needs an update or Grand Cherokee radio needs to be reprogrammed, get used to it, this is going to be around for a while. The moral of the story, don't count the domestic product out, they are not what they used to be. There are plenty of good quality, fuel efficient products out there, buy what you like, but look before you buy. If you want a history lesson in what happens when government gets to involved in the automotive industry, We need only look to the history of the British automotive industry to see the effects of unions and government control. Today very few of the factories are still standing a mere 25 years later. And just so you know, I have a Dodge truck and a Saab.

"The shrinkage of GM, partly due to  and other states, has decimated the UAW."

Competition is natures way of weeding out the weak, if competition is decimating the UAW then it's a good thing and should be telling us that the UAW needs to evolve or go the way of the dinosaurs. Making it easier for the unions to ignore the realities of today's world and continue to do business as usual is a mistake, if they are no longer competitive then let them die. Their inability to evolve is holding America back, and preventing our businesses from changing to meet the global demands.

For America to survive we need small agile businesses that can spot a niche and fill it, yetbe  able to rapidly change directions when the niche goes away. Unions prevent this type of agility because of their vary nature. The Big 3 are dinosaurs, and like the dinosaurs of old they can't respond to changes, and as such wasting money on them is a mistake, it'll just delay the inevitable demise. Let them either evolve or die now, and if the unions can't change on their own let them go as well.

Well said Tim and car guy.  Would GM be willing to give me my money back for my

1985 S-10?  48K miles and dead.  83cady, 63K miles needs engine.   My money was still good but their product stinks out loud.  After that I bought a Camry and an Odysee (kids came) great cars, no troubles and good resale.  Im still bitter GM.  You hosed me out of a lot of money and left me stranded to often.  I think Ford and Chryslers bail out is GM's demise, they deserve it after the way the treated me.

The card check system while well intended, does the same thing the old system did in reverse.  Now instead of strong arm tactics to scare you by manegment, you get them from pro union co-workers.  The system needs work.  Employers spit in the face of the law, and enlist select workers to help them.  I am not sure of the answer, but this is not it.