'Card check' best hope for auto workers union?

Hell yeah, turn the clock back a century before unions. Then children can be proud of the product they make on their ten hour shift.

Scott I- laws to prevent all that, you sound like a disgruntled, biased, nonobjective union employee

No, I'm the biased son of an employed union worker Jerry.

Jerry- Before we all go a-bashing on the unions, There is figure I'd like to know. What percentage of the sticker price makes up for the labor cost. If it is over say 10%, then the unions should be sent packing. But if it's less than 5%, then the CEOs of the big three have truly been ripping off.

interesting question turtledude. 

i pulled GM's 10-k out of the SEC EDGAR database, did some real simple analysis.  based on a $25k sticker price:

- director's and officer's salaries (about 47 people, aka 'top management') comprise 6/10ths of 1% of the price of a 25k car.

- line wages and benefits are approx 44%. that's more than the cost of the raw materials in the vehicle.

- materials are 27% of the cost of the vehicle.

bank interest, rent and lease payments, staff professionals & their benefits, advertising, depreciation, and other ordinary business expenses make up most of the balance of the 25k.

Wild weasel- Excellent input. For comparison, can you do same for Honda or Toyota?

Just a thought about the Markets, Congress and all the highly paid politicians out there. Jeff Sessions made quite a comment.......

“I think the United Auto Workers and some of their wage demands and work habit demands have hurt the industry,” Sessions said.

I think that Mr. Sessions should try a little introspect of himself and the rest of his Congressional friends. He shouldn't talk about anyone's WORK HABITS and PAY. Especially after letting his Wall Street friends get away with the Piracy they've pulled and allowing the economy to fall into the abyss. His seat in Congress must have a HOLE in the bottom of it so he can stick his thumb up through it!

Unions in the south will just cause Honda, KIA and the like to move to Mexico. Then the south will lose the jobs. Couple that loss with the big 3 going down and Wal-Mart laying off and closing stores to fight the union and what do you have? A union hastened DEPRESSION.

jerry,

i would - but honda & toyota are not publicly traded (American) companies and as such do not need to file 10-ks with the SEC.  now if somebody inside those companies has access to the financial info and wants to email me...  :-) 

where's waldo...uh, read the Congressional Record.  sessions cosponsored legislation not once not twice not thrice but FIVE times to reign in freddie and fannie, who precipitated this financial sector mess.  going back to the source of their insanity start with the 1977 community reinvestment act (better called "Give mortgages to those who can 't pay them or else we'll shut you down Act" by ACORN) or the 1993 national home ownership initiative (better called "the '77 screw wasn't harmful enough so now we'll forbid banks to use credit scores require down payments and require them to use welfare payments and foodstamps as mortgage application income for certain classes of people Act" by ACORN/Frank/Dodd, Part II), will give you the rest of the story. 

incidentally, all the economic indices used by business decision makers?  they were still rising in mid october, or at worst flat.  yes the economy is hurting, but much of the reaction is knee jerk based on headlines.  many of those laying off are doing quite well, revenue and earnings wise, looking at 3rd quarter releases.

It has nothing to do with what geographical region the cars are built. The workers produce the car that they are told to make in that particular factory by management. If it is an inferior vehicle, it is because of the poor design, not so much the workers fault for having to build an inferior product. In other words you build the product you are told to build! The workers have no say in design, etc.

BTW, I have been a proud union worker all my life (airlines and military aircraft). I have built and maintained some of the most sophisticated aircraft in the world. Peoples lives are in my hands!!! If anything, I am underpaid for what I do!!! If I did not have a Union on the job I would make less money and benefits and the CEO's would just take more!!! I get tired of people begrudging the money and benefits Unioniozed employees make. I think a lot of people are just jealous!!!

If more people were unionized, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in right now, because we could have prevented all the jobs going overseas and put a check and balance on capitalism run amok!!!! Instead everyone just laughed when those "lazy/overpaid" union workers lost their jobs to Mexico, etc... Unions are needed now more than ever!!!!! And don't call me lazy and overpaid!! You don't even know me or my Union brothers or our work ethics!! Statistically, Union workers in the U.S. are some of the most productive and efficient workers in the world!!!

Jerry, The problems started before Freddy and Fanny. Two States Attorney Generals went to Washington in 2005 to complain to the Comptroller Of the Currency about the abusive lending Practices that they were seeing and were rebuffed by the Federal Government. They told the States that Banking rules were the Federal Governments domain and told them to pretty much " go take a hike." And never did a damn thing about the abusive lending practices. It was the Federal Government under George Bush who fell asleep at the switch. Not ONE politician; Not the Chairman of the Federal Reserve; Not the Chairman of the S.E.C.; And not even the Treasury Secretary had a CLUE, that this was coming until we all saw Hank Paulson on bended knee; before Congress with sweat running down the crack of his ass begging for money. Well?..................Where were all these people with their PH-D's in Economics and their Masters in Business while all of this was happening?..............Asleep at the switch while the Wall Street Pirates had their way with the American Markets and the Economy.

As Harry Truman once said about the presidency. " THE BUCK STOPS HERE "

And besides, Jeff Sessions shouldn't talk about anyone with the baggage he's carrying. Especially for a former Eagle Scout.

waldo,

do you know who signed the legislation to force sub-prime loans. that would be good ol' jimmy carter king of 22% inflation and hillbiily clinton who signed stronger legislation making it vertually illegal to turn anyone down who applied for a mortgage.

this is another form of redistributing wealth, which is welfare, which makes people slaves of the fed gov. why do they do that? well people who don't have to work for thier means become lazy asses. lazy asses are not going to vote their meal ticket out of office. thus this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in that as long as the dems can keep people fed and lazy, provide basically free housong then they will hace a loyal voter base. i am going to post an article in a minute and i hope you will take the time to read it. it says much clearer than i, what i am trying to explain. i am not a professional writer. 

as promised, all please take time to read. its not that long

HOW LONG DOES THE USA HAVE?

This is the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. The sad thing
about it, you can see it coming.

I have always heard about this democracy countdown. It is interesting to see it
in print. God help us, not that we deserve it.

How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in
1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of
Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000
years earlier:

'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
permanent form of government.'

'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover
they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every
democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always
followed by a dictatorship.'

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years'

'During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the
following sequence:

1. >From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. >From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. >From courage to liberty;

4. >From liberty to abundance;

5. >From abundance to complacency;

6. >From complacency to apathy;

7. >From apathy to dependence;

8. >From dependence back into bondage'

Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul,
Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential
election:

Number of States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29

Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000
Bush: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by:
Gore: 127 million
Bush: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: 'In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was
mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country.
Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in
government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government
welfare...' Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
'complacency and apathy' phase ofProfessor Tyler's definition of
democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having
reached the 'governmental dependency' phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders
called illegal and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than
five years.

If you are in favor of this then delete this message if you are not then Pass
this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake, knowing that
apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

Thanks for reading.

I seriously fail to see why the unions are taking the blame for this one. The auto industry has been floundering for quite a long time now and it is not because of labor costs. If you want to blame someone (altho one could argue it would not be an easy task to put the blame on one group or sector of the car making business) blame the partnership of the oil industry and Detroit fat cats. For years we have seen the decline of the american built automobile. The designs are not decided by the unions. They only build what they are told. The oil companies and Detroit have for years continued to produce and tell people they want big gas guzzling mega cars..suv's..hummers...3 ton pickups and the like. The efficient well built cars of Asia became the preferred auto because they had vision and knew how to make cars that people saw themselves driving and being happy and safe in. As far as the southern auto plants..again..foriegn designs and state of the art plants that can easily be retooled to keep up with the different trends AND necessities of the car design and manufacturing industry. Unions or no unions, they take care of their workers..they make the business a sort of cooperative where all involved know the consequences of a poorly designed and built car.
unions cannot be blamed for this debacle..certainly not alone. And of course , the pay structure of this capitalist society is so far out of whack that to me it is almost incomprehensible that anyone would look at the unions and ask "What are YOU going to give up". Which would be asked by executives on their way to ask for a handout from the taxpayer, arriving on a $25,000 per flight private flying hotel.

Sorry TRCO !  If that's the case, as you argue, then why didn't the problem rear it's ugly head early in it's thirty plus year history?? That's a BOGUS argument and most people with the working knowlege of Wall Street's dirty dealings will say to people like you, " It ain't so."

The Sub-Prime mess was helped along by scurrilous banks, mortgage brokers and accountants gaming the system. The banks knowingly accepted mortgages PROMOTED by greedy Mortgage Brokers who wrote Liar Loans for their clients to get their buddies in the banks to accept these toxic loans so the Mortgage Brokers could reap their share of each dirty deal. Then the banks saw what they had on their hands and "Packaged" these toxic Loans into securities and sold them on the markets around the world. The Accountants had a hand in it by giving these Toxic Derivatives a higher value than they were worth through the Rating Agencies like Standard and Poors and Moody's. The Wall Street Pirates Sent this country and its World Neighbors into an Economic tailspin with their nefarious dealings. Not Jimmy Carter........Sorry if I burst your bubble.

to hell with the Unions.,. They are responsibile for this mess as much as management.. Get rid of all of them..

To add some additional to trco's post about the decline of the way things are in USA.

"Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama's (D-IL) hometown is the murder capital of the country.

Not Washington, DC or Detroit, or Los Angeles, or even big, bad NY but Chicago leads the nation in murders: The Chicago Sun-Times reported this week that Chicago, with 426 murders through Tuesday, is outpacing New York and L.A. in murders this year. New York recorded 417 murders, while L.A. had 302."

This was as of October 21, 2008. These stats came after Obama had worked for years to "improve" things there as a community organizer; an attorney for slum lord, Tony Rezco; sitting on education boards (bill ayers); a state senator and a US senator.

By the way, 283 soldiers were killed in IRAQ during the same time 426 murders were taking place in Obama's home neighborhoods. I don't like the fact that 283 soldiers were killed but that's still a lot less than the 426 just in chicago. Obama had years to improve things and a lot of govt money came into city and state. Not sure where it all went.

If obama does for country what he did for his constituents back home, it will be a LOOONNNGGG four years!! And the sad part is that his people in chicago over completely overjoyed that he's president.

Waldo

In defence of Trco and Darrell let me say, Unions love the Minimum Wage it henceforth gives them a rate increase with out any collective bargaining .(2007)

Thus the Real Estate Ind. when with the Community Investment Act inflated the houses for more speculators to flip until they got caught in a Bubble.

Waldo

I might add it happens when Government interference with the free market,to solely enhance their coffers and influence voters.

Wude121-   The banks and lending institutions following the CIA criteria were supposed to follow the same guide lines as any lending institution is or was supposed to follow. They weren't supposed to discriminate like they had been in certain areas of the country. It was supposed to stop Red Lining. The borrowers and banks were, and are supposed to follow all of the laws on disclosure then and now. The problem is The Banks and Mortgage Brokers got greedy and scoffed the laws and purposely wrote bad loans that they later hid by bundling them into packages to sell all over the world as investments. Your Government stood by and let it all happen. If they DIDN'T know about this then they were stupid and if they DID know then they were complicit. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. 

The union is killing the auto makers! Line workers are making $70.00 per hour, that is ludicrous! There was a time and place for unions, but now they have just gotten corrupt and ruin companies. I was a member of the IBEW for 15 years, and they didn't do anything but take the dues every month. If there was an issue, they just said, "nothing we can do". Then they started assessing us a day's pay to catch up for their incompetance. I would never work for a union again! It ruined Kaiser Aluminum in Spokane. They called it the Lazy K because people could go to work and find a corner to sleep in. If someone asked them to run a paper up to the office, they would say "not my job" and do nothing. A supervisor picked up a piece of metal off the floor because he thought it unsafe, and got a greivance filed against him because salary personnel aren't supposed to touch any of the work. Another company in WI just went on strike a few weeks ago (only lasted a day) and now the company is shifting machinery to their Canadian plant. And Obama is trying to help out the unions by getting rid of the secret ballot. Assinine! Workers would then be intimidated to serve the cash cow union. And you wonder why companies are moving to China or Vietnam? The work ethic in this country sucks due to unions. Everybody feels entitlement without responsibility. Gawd people are stupid...

Wude..............The free market you are talking about just put this country on its knees because no one was " Watching the Store." You will certainly see more disclosure and Transparency in the market with new Regulations.........Guaranteed. It's blatantly apparent that many of these people can't be trusted to self regulate..........they're thieves.

Waldo

Oh I'm well aware,when you have a fox guarding the chicken house you bet they ain't thinking of bacon.And as long as these two party's have us divided they will continue to do so.

I'm not a investor or speculator just a small business owner who have seen my tax liability slide and income ,because of the wrongs created by the higher ups that in turned cut their share of revenues and with no talk except for tax increases on all. What are we to do?95% Right, let them say that but we know their motives will enhance more dependency in the State.I do not want more regulation I want more Oversight so the people and company's that are cheating are caught.

Also on the CIA criteria they packaged up those loans and sold them to Fannie n Freddie thanks to Dodd n Frank and plus some Republicans who turned there backs because they knew in the short term they would see benefits of those deals.

People don't see that part of this colaps in not only the auto or airline business but our whole manufactury industry for that matter that screwed up. Mismanagement,overpaid CEO's and managers. But so are the labor unions to blame,yes I know we needed the unions in the early days to make live a little better i am 84 now and remember the depression years very well. After WW2 the unions were driving the wages up year after year,forgetting that we have to stay competitive with other countries and now everything comes to a grinding stop,we all were to greedy.A bailout won't work unless labor takes takes lower wages and managers take big pay cuts and we can make a product for less money,if we don't we want make anything in this country anymore,and I know I am right. We have to sacrifice to survive, or we will lose it all to overseas countries.We have to lower our living standard for many years to come and work hard,like it or not,  we are dead meat if we don't.

Wude---------Check this article on MSNBC........http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27865780/

Bank regulator played advocate not enforcer

Office of Thrift Supervision let lenders grow out of control, eventually fail

This is only the Tip of the Ice berg

Let me in here!

As a retired UMWA coal miner I can say for a fact that non-union mines kill and injure a lot more workers than in union mines.

 I give you American coal as a prime example, so time back their mine in S. Il. caught on fire and when the federal inspector went in he found men with fire hoses spraying water on the rubber belts  to keep them from burning and at the mining machine the men were between knee and hip deep in very cold water.

 When the inspector ask the boss what the hell he was doing the answer way "I'm fighting this fire".

 The inspector used his authority to force the removal of the men and machines and had them seal the section. The proper way after sealing is to drill from the surface and pump carbon dioxide in the fire area.

 These clowns were told how long it takes to smother a fire but reopened the section early and in a few days were forced to reseal the section .

Down the page treo tells us how bush was supported by the most land area but fails to state that most of the pugs live in states that are almost all federal land.

Congress says that the demise of the auto industry is in part the fault of the union and it's high wages.  Then turns around and presents a bill like this?  Level the playing field? You bet...at the unions high wages level.  DUH! DUH! DUH!!!!!!

And congress is going to listen to the auto execs idea for viablity and decide if it's good? DUH! DUH! DUH!!!

We voted in morons!  Of course, everyone who runs for office is a moron. They don't listen to their constituents, they listen to their multi-term mentors in congress on how to make the most money for themselves.  Ask Sen. Shelby how much Mercedes, Honda and Hyundai are paying him to condemn the US auto industry.

wheres waldo...one more time, this time in slow motion for you...

to know the origins of the subprime mess, go back to the source of the insanity starting with the 1977 community reinvestment act (better called "Give mortgages to those who can 't pay them or else we'll shut you down Act" by ACORN) or the 1993 national home ownership initiative (better called "the '77 screw wasn't harmful enough so now we'll forbid banks to use credit scores, require down payments, and require them to use welfare payments and foodstamps as mortgage application income for certain classes of people Act" by ACORN/Frank/Dodd, redux), will give you the rest of the story.  the problem was magnified by policies set in place by franklin raines - on of obambam's economic advisors.  read the legislation, listen to raines testimony on cspan, listen to 30 years of banking industry officials warning of this calamity...

I think that Mr. Sessions should try a little introspect of himself and the rest of his Congressional friends. He shouldn't talk about anyone's WORK HABITS and PAY. Especially after letting his Wall Street friends get away with the Piracy they've pulled and allowing the economy to fall into the abyss. His seat in Congress must have a HOLE in the bottom of it so he can stick his thumb up through it!

Mr. Sessions, along with Mr. Shelby of Alabama voted against the bail out.  Mr. Shelby, Mr. Sessions, and John McCain, along with 16 other Republicans, all came out for regulating Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac in 2006, and were stymied by Democrats crying "racisim" from the rooftops. 

In Alabama the Merceedes, Hundai, Toyota, and other plants are modern plants with a high level of mechanization.  In the Union controlled plants in the north the Union has fought automation tooth and nail and as a result their cost per unit are dramatically higher than for the automated plants around the nation and world built by foreign automakers.  Today in Alabama there is a $4.2 billion dollar steel mill under construction that is also automated but will still employ almost 3000 people, making an average for the line workers of $65k per year, damn good money in that part of the state (a majority black part of the state).

We live in a global civilization and if we do not adapt to that and overcome, then we will lose the jobs, the industries, and our position in the world.  A commenter above was right in that if the plants here in the south unionize and become like their counterparts in the north, the production will simply move offshore.  When no one is making anything anymore, does anyone think that this will be better for the nation? 

The same thing happened to the steel industry, led by the steel workers unions in the  70's.  The steel industry collapsed and the industry moved offshore.  Today that industry is rebuilding, due to automation and foreign investment.  The American worker is the best worker in the world, that is unless he gets to sit on his ass and get protected by an incompetent union that uses their power to get their own corporate jets to hobnob with Nancy Pelosi, rather than protect the interests of their workers.

I grew up in the United Mine Workers of America (UMWA), but saw what the union did to destroty itself in Alabama.  Alabama still has huge coal reserves but no new mines have opened (save one) in decades here, all because the Union fought productivity improvements that would have reduced the headcount but would have preserved the industry and have made the remaining jobs incredibly productive and well paid.

Wake up unions.  You have choked the goose that lays the golden egg and are well on the way to destroying your entire industry and the livelyhood of those workers that you are supposed to represent.

Of course you drive Hondas. You have no financial stake in whether the Big Three survive. BTW, you think Hondas will get cheaper or more expensive with their largest competition done away with?

price will stay the same, Toyota, Nissan, etc will still be the competition.

The $70 dollar an hour figure bandied about includes relatively generous health care and retirement packages.  The comparable rate at Honda and Toyota is about $48 an hour, with much of the difference being in pension (there isn't any) and health care (much lower benefits), and some being in the actual hourly wage. 

Additionally, the CEO's at Honda and Toyota make nowhere near what they do at GM, Ford or Chrysler, and the difference has a lot to do with the fact that American executives are grossly overpaid by anyone's standards.

Other differences also have to do with the work cultures at the two kinds of plants, and the approach taken by the car manufacturers to their customers.  In the U.S. plants workers are typically cogs in a wheel, while the Japanese plants encourage everyone to see themselves as part of the whole.  It isn't some work ethic that comes from anti-unioin "right to work" states.  As for the approach to customers, there is much more of an effort to make you a loyal customer and they care about customer satisfaction.  Supplier relationships are another area of difference, with the foreign car makers viewing their suppliers as being more in partnership, while the American approach is all too often to beat them down on price.  Continued model changes in the American line of cars also adds significantly to the competitive disadvantage.

So while it is easy to single out the UAW as the culprit, there is a whole lot more to it than that.   GM, Chrysler and Ford could go and bust all their contracts with the unions (through bankruptcy - UAL did it, and it is quickly becoming the American corporatations modus of operation) and they still wouldn't even come close to being competitive with the Japanese car makers.  An entire culture needs to change, beginning with the arrogance surrounding American vehicles being superior when in one consumer report and evaluation they just aren't.  And then we have the whole economy issue, and I'm sorry, but when it comes to repairs and costs to operate, American vehicles have a long way to go to come close to some of the better products made by the Japanese companies.     

the $70/hour number is close to accurate.  in reading GM's 2007 10-k as filed with the SEC, they as much as put in writing that cash (without benefits) wages are close to $60/hour.

it was signed off by outside counsel, and the auditors.  (5 year prison/$250 k fine for inaccurate information; 5 times that for perjury)

Thank for your input. I was aware of the $70 included benefits. As a person, I agree with  the Japanese's work ethic and attitude towards customers and vendors. As an American, I wish the big 3 would change their attitudes to match the competitions. In the end, the consumer has the final vote as to where their $ goes. So far, it's not the big 3.

By the way, I heard or read that UAW has negotiated $5 copays, guess who ultimately pays the difference?

Line workers don't make $70.00 an hour! Check all the websites you want, but I just look at my friends pay stubs. They work at GM and after nearly 25 years of employment they make around $33.00 per hour in wages. Those of you who think there is no place for unions really need to take a labor history class. Besides, when the big three are in trouble it's their employees who are the first to step up and accept concessions. Unions are not what they used to be. they understand that if the companies that employ their members are not successful, they will have no members to represent.

michigan...get GM's 10-k off the SEC's EDGAR database and read it.  you will see that cash base wage is near $60/hour. 

the 10-k's incidentally, are signed off by outside counsel and the audit firm.  25 years prison/$1million+ fine for perjury on these docs.

That's one of the problems you just mentioned making $33.00 per hr for mostly unskilled labor my friend,what do you think how much workers make in the overseas countries , yes $30.00 a day or less,so you see the picture now. We have to work for lower wages and the CEO's and managers salaries have to be cut like hell or we out of business for good and have nothing left as service jobs.

most independent economic analysis will show that unions promote economic inefficiency in an economy. as similar as throwing up trade barriers, stifling innovation and competition in a domestic economy. the way for all workers to win, is through effective legislation, not through the worker pay exorbitant union dues to an overfed union bureaucracy. there will never be an economic evaluation that is independent that shows unionization creates a better landscape for all.  the only winner are the fat cats that show up and collect big pay from the workers, and a lot of them are unionized even when they do not want to be.

The auto worker doesn't "make" $70.00 per hour. They make about $30.00 per hour. The rest of the "wage" they talk about is benefit related, like medical, etc. That's no different than the salaried workers (white collar), so the media is making it sound a lot worse than reality.  Every company, unless they provide no benefits, has "overhead" costs per employee that the worker doesn't get in his/her paycheck.

mike,

one more time - in slow motion...GM has attested to it, under penalty of perjury, in their 2007 10-k.  signed off by outside counsel and auditors.

deal with it.

Additionally, the CEO's at Honda and Toyota make nowhere near what they do at GM, Ford or Chrysler, and the difference has a lot to do with the fact that American executives are grossly overpaid by anyone's standards.

It was shown above that the pay of the CEO's is only a fraction of 1% of the price of a car while the unit labor costs of production represent 44% of the cost of a car.  While I might agree about them being overpaid, that overpayment does not materially impact the price of a car.

What I think has done American cars in, is that management has become lax and has allowed a culture of complacency to develop in the engineering department.  Cars need to continue to become better and last longer.  In the 1960's cars had to be retuned every 3000-6000 miles (wear on the points).  Today it is 100,000.  That is good, but the problem is that internal components break down and it is horribly expensive to repair long before they should.  I have a dear friend who always bought Ford products but after replacing transmissions on his F150 with less than 50k miles, and his daughters new Mustang (which is hot looking but mechanically a piece of crap) going back to the shop several times in 20,000 miles he started buying Toyotas, with no further problems.

I did the same thing in the 80's when my Ford Ranger transmission went out every 30,000 miles like clockwork (after breaking the first time at 11,00 miles) and I had to sue the dealer to honor his warranty.  I only won the case after a service manager at another Ford dealership who went to my church passed me documents from Ford engineering telling them that whever a Ranger came in for servicing or to repair the fifth gear (which kept failing on mine), to drill holes in the transmission case to improve oil flow to the fifth gear bearings.  This was an engineering flaw that should have resulted in a recall but they kept it quiet as the lawsuits were cheaper than fixing the problem.  That kind of management crap is why the U.S. automakers are in the toilet today.

On the other hand, my 1995 Toyota Tacoma with 180,000 plus miles has been trouble free with one exception of an alternator at 155,000 miles.  Recently I got a recall notice due to the possibility of rust on the frame and that Toyota would inspect and fix any problem for free, just bring it in.  That is customer service, and why I bought a second Toyota Tacoma.  That is about $40,000 in sales that the U.S. automakers lost because they pissed me off with bad service.

These problems must be fixed or the decline will continue and the bail out will only prolong the inevitable.

So, essentially, you and your family are part of the problem?

No, actually, when my great grandfather worked for the unions in the 30's and 40's he worked very hard to make sure people didn't die or were maimed at work......then when my other uncles worked for the manufaturers from the 50's to the 80's it wasn't something anyone cared about.....and since I work with people with cancer I can't see how I am part of the problem......thus the decline of the big 3 would not effect me? 

My point is that the Unions are doing absolutly nothing for the worker, ecomomy, or companies they are protecting against and that everyone should know that.  

Oh and by the way I LIVE IN AMERICA, AM AN AMERICAN, and THUS I DRIVE AMERICAN....

For all the UAW workers that drive foreign cars, WONDERING WHY YOU ARE LOSING YOUR JOBS YET?????  It is peope like you and others who buy and drive foreign cars that help this problem.  (I wouldn't be proud of this fact and post it.)  And YES I drive a FORD!

Ignorant people should think before they speak...or type

any and all u.a.w. members driving foreign autos should be fired immediately. period.

eman:

My question was a commentary on the contradictory nature of your post. In one breath you say you are from a union family and in the next you say the unions are like vampires, sucking the companies dry. So if both the things you say are true, you and your family are part of the problem logically, aren't you?

Scott Isaacs--Eman's initial post is not contradictory in any way.  He came to his conclusions IN SPITE of a direct family experience that might have OTHERWISE shaded his view.  He further made the argument that the role of the unions in the early to mid 20th century was one thing; it appears their role in the 21st is somewhat different.  He is not part of the problem at all; he is part of the solution.  His family history has nothing to do with this.  Your criticism is not useful in this discussion.

I have been reading this article and many others, since this BIG 3 problem arose. Have read through these posts and not seen any mention of the "Jobs Bank"?

UAW workers sitting around playing cards, working crossword puzzles for MONTHS getting FULL PAY and Benefits?

Wish I had Benefits like that!

I agree more with eman, in the DAY, Unions were needed BADLY, today I honestly believe an individual can go find a decent job, with decent benefits, because the Employer HAS to offer them, or the Employees would not come....

I do think the BIG 3 should be given the "Loan" not because THEY deserve it, but the "Trickle down" effect would be beyond comprehension! Hundreds of thousands of small Biz and millions of Jobs lost? These companies have always built a good auto in my eye's, I've owned all three, mostly Ford's! Maybe 10-15 years ago I would not have said that, but now, their auto's are very competitive on the market. They just need to go the way of Honda and such, get lean or DIE!

A very small % of wage, goes into the cost of these auto's, I believe it is the gross misconduct of the Exe's, that need changed.

BTW, I am NOT a Union worker, support the Employee Free Choice Act, but it will be the downfall of Honda and others, doing BIZ in America, watch and see.......

Great idea, share the misery. Instead of bailing out the big 3 just force Honda etal to shutdown their plants and move to Canada or Mexico.  They are here because it is cheaper than paying Japanese or Korean wages and shipping the cars, not because they love us.

They are here for the same reason Ford and GM have plants all over Europe and Australia: it just makes economic sense to build cars close to where your customers are.

For smaller things like TV sets or toys or whatever, it makes sense to stuff it all in containers and ship it.  But cars are big, bulky items and there are many regional differences in styling, customer desires, branding, etc., which make it hard to build a car in ONE plant and supply the world with the output. 

US automakers even do this within the US, which more than one plant making F150s, some of the Dodge products, etc.  Happens all the time.

So are you saying that the IBEW is lying when they show proof that union electricians are better trained and more productive than scabs?

Unionizing the foreign automobile manufacturing plants in the Southeast probably would see Honda, Toyota, etc move their assembly plants to Mexico.  Thanks to the North America Free Trade Agreement.  President-elect Obama wants to modify the NAFTA to make it more "FAIR."  One can hope that the Employee Free Choice Act and changes in NAFTA will give the unions a level playing field.

In the 80's, the auto industry got hooked on the "Japanese" way to build cars. The adopted  "andon", "kanban" and other methods that the japanese used in their factories. One thing they adopted from the Japanese was the "Job for Life" concept.  If a factory in Japan had to reduce it's manpower, one of the other factories owned by that company would "pick up" those displaced people, therefore, job for life.  When the auto industry in the US adopted this idea, to appease the UAW, they forgot that there was no place to send those displaced workers, other than set them in a room, and keep paying their wage.

The auto industry fell for this, hook, line and sinker!  Don't single out the union for this blunder.  The executives thought this was a marvelous idea to get some other concessions from the union.  The economy, and the US industry just wasn't set up the way Japan was / is.

I blame the executives completely for this blunder. I also blame them for letting in the imports. In the 70's, who sponsored the "cute" little foreign cars in the US?

Honda, at Oldsmobile dealerships.  Mazdas at Ford dealerships.  Get the idea?

The US auto industry should have never let their dealers introduce the foreign products into their showrooms.  They allowed the foreign cars into the US with oopen arms.

Give us a few months... Obama hasn't even gotten into office yet. I can tell you're lonely and looking forward to the company. ;-)

My husband is a labor attorney, management side.  If this card check goes through, his law practice will be making more money than you could believe.  All these negotiations.....It was tough being a Republican voting for McCain when I knew if Obama won my husband's firm would be making sooo much more money.  Now doesn't that just bite all???

Melissa:

Why would you vote against your pocketbook? Because your family is doing fine at the current rate of business?

No, Scott, because she doesn't want to give it all to Obama for more government programs and handouts, I mean entitlements... Before you parrot his gibberish about not raising taxes for those under $250k/year, name me one Democrat who didn't raise taxes as President and then let's watch and see what happens over the next 2 years.

By the time Obama is done with her husband he would have been better off without the bump in pay most likely so she did vote with her pocketbook...

So you're saying she doesn't understand her finances? Because she clearly thinks she voted against her finances and you're saying otherwise.

scott, get off the koolaid.

does anyone know who the last democrat president to cut taxes was?  hint: assasinated 45 years ago this weekend.  economy started to take off...until jfk's great society and accompanying tax rape, er, tax increases on the middle class.

1CEBITN,  go back and read through the House/Senate Joint Committee Blue Books (Congress' bible on tax legislation) dating back to the new deal.  you will find that not one tax increase that didn't go all the way down the income charts.  you'll probably need to buy the books from the Government Printing Office, if you're not working in an auditing firm.

The Obama police? Are you on drugs.? No administration has ever entered the private life of it citizens more than the current one. Please...you are nuts. This entire Bush administration should be behind bars.

And..as far as taxes are concerned, whoever won this election would have been raising taxes somewhere. If you believed McCain when he said he wouldnt, you are fooling yourself. With the way the republican leadership has left things, some kind of tax increase is inevitable.

Give him and Nancy 100 days and you will see how screwed things can get..

1CEBITN - I do Remember "NO NEW TAXES" Bush???

People living in Glass houses.......Last Rep I voted for or ever will!

dc smith...no taxes need to be raised. hold spending increases to the rate of inflation, and the revenue growth will take care of any new spending needs. that was proven by an accounting firm in the 80's, about the Reagan tax cuts and tip oneill's drunken sailor spending. it's a spending problem, not a revenue problem.

dems just like to raise taxes because it's anathema to them that you get to keep any of your paycheck. former chrmn of the house ways and means cmte dan rostenkowski said as much to the philadelphia chamber of commerce in 1993. it's on video at the chamber headquarters, go ask to view it. it's free, bring your own popcorn. but you may want a barf bag when you see how condescending he talks about working Americans...and uses the term 'flyover country' not once, but 3 times in a 35 minute speech.

DC Smith, how has the current administration entered your private life?  They listened in on overseas phone calls.  Making those to terrorists are you??

sure melissa for a time, until there is no more business as many industries just leave the country or move to mexico. you inane democrats still havent got the concept of the globalization of labor and marketplace and more to the point the idea that capital is very mobile and it will move to the place where it can generate the best return. unions hamper profitability and economic efficiency, nearly always, as their likely must be an exception. maybe your hubby should branch out into the field of corporate divestments and corporate severance, for all those jobs and companies that will be no longer in america. god bless america.

Pardon me but bush and co are the ones pushing so called free trade which is a way to allow foreign sources to ship to us while not allowing US imports ;SEE Japan,China S. America and the list go on.

george, dig out the dep't of commerce data.  yes, imports from the free trade agreement nations have risen, no doubt. but our exports to those nations have achieved levels that would have never been possible without those free trade agreements.  what they do is essentially lower, or at the least minimize, tarriffs.

as for china-revoke mfn (most favored nation) status. a president can give that status to a nation without congressional approval.  what a deal!  nixon gave mfn status to china, then it didn't matter.  American business has been asking presidents since the mid 90s to revoke it.

Gosh, your name doesn't belie a bias in this debate does it?

Says it all, no need to post my opinion.

scott, it says he values spending his hard-earned dollars in a prudent, and responsible manner.  one in which his family's interests take precedence.

Let the workers buy the company. that way they would have a stake in the quality and realize they have to compete to make sales, and get rid of that "not my job" mentality!

crystal, that's what the uaw has refused the companies request to do - award part of the profit sharing check in company stock. then they would actually have to do a good job, and they can't allow that to happen.

thats a likely scenario, as many economic studies show that unions hamper profitability, why worry about profit sharing when you work in detroit, a government handout from a friendly democratic government, shows you that it is true voting democrat can have its benifits.

wildweasel:

I just think it's interesting that he chose the auto bailout to create a screen name rather than you using your status as a Vietnam pilot or me using my own name as a handle.

Lecture me about competing in the world marketplace when you have to train your replacement and then get laid off.

So Scott, are you advocating an isolationist agenda?  Detroit had free reign in America until the mid to late 70's because foreign made cars were either very poorly made or there import wasn't allowed.

Detroit didn't have to complete in the world market until it was too late due to their lack of vision and leadership by both company and union management.

Detroit had the opportunity to improve quality by implementing new process controls in the late 50's and 60's that Edward Deming attempted to sell Detroit.  Funny thing is Detroit laughed him out of town.  Funny thing is look where he ended up; Japan.  Roll forward 20-30 years and guess who was building better cars for less money? That's right Japan.

When will the management and unions stand up and admit they are the problem and resign.  Only then will the american public be willing to bail out an industry that, arguably, has lacked the vision and leadership for the past 20 years that is needed to move them forward into the 21st century.

Steve:

No more isolationist than Japan. They have multiple layers of protective laws including straight subsidies to Japanese companies like Toyota and Honda that make sure the 128M person Japanese economy never even sees a foreign car, much less buys one. The second side of that cudgel you're wielding is that the American government has actively sped Japanese access into our market while not offering any govt assistance to Detroit. People keep wanting to act like the Japanese are supermen. They're doing the autos the same way they did the steel companies in the 70's: use govt cash to bankrupt your competitors on the world market then charge whatever you want.

Steve, you are 100% correct! "use govt cash to bankrupt your competitors on the world market then charge whatever you want."

You watch the price of these JAP cars, if the BIG 3 go under......Then again, if you can't buy an American made one, can the Japs produce enough cars for the demand around the world?

You bet they can make all the cars we need and so does China ,the thing is we here at home are working service jobs or are unemployed, but that is our own falt,and don't buy new cars every two or three years or so,we won't have the buying power anymore it's that simple. Greed brought this country down.

Take your mommy with you.

At least I have a mommy.

And if you do sign, you will be out of a job either way it goes.

the only answer......... unions need it for intimidation

Ed:

They introduced non-secret balloting as a way for other workers to know which workers were being bribed to keep the plant non-union. If you know that a guy voted with the company and the union fails and later on he ends up in management with a higher salary, you know why he voted the way he did: it was cheaper to buy off the votes than pay everyone. It's a way of leveling the playing field. Owners can legally bribe their workers to vote any way they want... at least with open ballot the workers that accept the bribes can be seen for what they are: scabs.

Who is "They?" And don't forget the union goons can and will beat the living tar out of you or at a minimum make your life miserable at your job when they see you vote no to the union in public. Intimidation by union goons, I mean reps will be rampant with the check card system...

That would be the govt in the 1930's, the last time things were this out of whack.

scott, are you really that daft and ignorant that unions don't use violence, intimidation and murder to enforce the party line?  yablonski's in west virginia, early 70s i think it was.  reformer coal miner, shenadoah valley pa, 1984 killed in mine shaft by union men. yates industries, bordentown nj, non union salary staff and R&D personnel, 1981, threatened - and brutalized - for going to their jobs during a strike when they were not union. btw, that company is now in luxemburg and the uk.  500+ IBEW workers out of work. hope they like eating government cheese.  or how delaval steam turbine USW members in trenton nj assaulted customer representatives from india, taiwan and korea during negotiations - not even a strike yet.  company lost over $200 million dollars in orders that week---and closed within a year. i lost my job both places, as a night school student.  and you wonder why people are sour on unions.

and before you get on your sanctimonious high horse, my grandfather immigrated here less than 80 years ago---and was a union man driving streetcars in Steelertown, PA. i was raised-and grew up believing in-union membership. the fact that i chose to go to college didn't deter that belief--until those events in 1981 and 1984. my wife and infant son were injured in the 1981 strike-and she didn't drive on company property but was parked outside the gates waiting for me. so you and your union thugs can go perform an anatomically impossible and biologically unnatural act with yourselves.  he!! is too kind for you, ok?

After reading many of wildweasel's comments I hope he runs for office in 2012.  He's got my vote rather it's card check or (hopefully still) private.

Ohhhh the stories I could tell you I learned from my Grandfather about the Unions....

Bless his sole, I Pray that you all listen to what wildweasle is saying because it is Factual!

Unionized laybor across this country DID what it needed to, to GET what it Wanted, well you got it now, How's that workin for ya?

wildweasel:

Oh, I see. You have an axe to grind against unions because they hurt your wife and child? And you told me to stop drinking the kool aid. Your entire view is darkly colored by your anger over something that shouldn't have happened almost three decades ago.

Are you familiar with management practices before the 1930's? They hired the local police and National Guard to murder workers in cold blood to break a strike. One example is Bill Blizzard's miners trying to make their way to a non-union West Virginia county. Unions may use violence and intimidation, but I assure you they use it less and is less coordinated than anything management has to offer. You've offered me, what? Some ruffianism and a few dead people? The number of dead workers runs into the hundreds in the history of America. Maybe the thousands. Have you ever even walked a picket line? When your wife and child were injured, were you breaking the strike line? Is that how they got hurt?

if i was union, i would never cross a line. i was salary, not union. they were outside the gate, off company property, waiting for me.  the union members went off company property and sought out salary employee vehicles, and attacked them --- with spouses and children inside.  if this is what you wish to defend, then God help us as a nation.

salary employees are another matter. payroll still has to be done, supplies still have to purchased, government reports still have to be filed, bank statements still have to be reconciled, existing orders still need to be filled until inventory runs out...i can list scores of functions that need to be done strike or no strike, that take someone the better part of 40 hours a week. the union has no business messing with non-union personnel. we have our own jobs to do, none of which has to do with their jobs. if it was a supervisor or such running the line, that's another story.

as a result of the Yate's strike, union personnel were no longer permitted to in the common parking lot with everyone else. they got a parking lot with concertina barbed wire and cameras, the lunch room was moved with no access by union personnel, no more honor system with the time cards (they wrote their arrival and depart times, initialed it and had their supervisor sign off on it) - they got a fingerprint ID system from europe to clock in and out...and less than 2 years later the Swiss subsidiary got bank financing to buy out the 2 majority stockholders. moved it all to switzerland and the uk.  

7 employee cars were torched-off company property-in full view of the nj state police. 4 people were killed as a result - 2 spouses, 2 children. cameras on company property showed union personnel to be responsible. no prosecutions resulted, in spite of hundreds of eye witnesses and affadavits, and video evidence.  still want to defend this behavior?

I am sincerely sorry for those women and children. I don't condone violence against wives and children. I don't know who was running the strike line at the time, but he clearly neglected his responsibilities that strike damage includes property and male adults trying to cross the picket line to replace the men in the union on the job. Anything else is nothing short of domestic terrorism. I would not walk the strike line after that until they made peace with you and the other family they harmed. I wasn't there so I don't know if they got out of control, didn't know the civilians were there, etc. but I can assure you that I do not condone forcing a man's hand by threatening or injuring his family.

the company was founded by canadians, with strong union ethos in their home growing up.  no replacements were used. due to industrial esponiage, there were cameras in and around the property.  the ibew local president and others can be heard, from outside the gate, egging the union members on to go after the support, admin and professionals vehicles.  in full view of the state police, no prosecutions in spite of video and audio evidence.

what happened in the 20s and 30s had nothing to do with this incident. union leadership is heard telling the membership to go after the salaried employees vehicles.

the anger resurfaced because you seem to be defending this behavior, without regard to the lives lost.

Times change. If I were you I'd obtain that evidence and talk to the DA as I suspect times have changed and so has technology and there is no statute of limitations on murder. The person(s) that perpetrated these unsanctioned killings could still be alive and living free. Technology could identify them. In fact, I'd strongly urge you to do that. The victims deserve no less.

Amem, Jim. It's not "redistributing the wealth", it's curbing the greed. I've never understood why CEOs are paid so much. These poeple really don't DO much of anything for a living. They are nothing but giant yes-men, doing the bidding of the shareholders. Maybe that's why the shareholders pay them so much; the shareholders are buying their own lap dog. This corporate culture is at the core of all our recent economic woes.

i'm not denying some/many salaries are excessive, but look at what's being reported.  if they're reporting total comp, find out how much is from incentive stock options.  that is usually the largest piece of a ceo's total comp package.  it is non-cash, imputed taxable income, of which the shares must usually must be sold to pay the tax bite of the feds and the state. under the accounting and tax rules which ISO's are issued, the proceeds generally cover the tax bill, nothing else.  go to the company 10-k and read how much base salary and any bonus is; that's closer to the actual cash compensation.  you'll find it's nowhere near the astronomical numbers reported in the press. 

Turtledude, what is at the core of our recent economic woes is 20 years of speding beyond our means.  There is no excuse for the excesses of CEO compensation.  But let's at least be honest with ourselves as to the root of our current economic problems.

Greed is a 2 way street.  The american consumer has been just as greedy in their ability to spend $2 for every $1 they make.  Can't do that forever before the payment comes due. And now that it has everyone is looking for some one to blame but themselves.

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights:  that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to ALTER OR ABOLISH IT, and institute new government."  Thomas Jefferson "Preamble to the Declaration of Independence"

The primary problem with the Big 3 and government is the unionized work force.  For some reason, unions believe that taxpayers, and other American citizens, owe union workers constantly increasing wages and benefits.

Unions in industry seem to believe that cost has nothing to do with price.  Two similar products will still sell the same volume even if one costs a dollar less.  Reduced cost of manufacturing means that a product can be sold cheaper and still make a similar or higher profit.

Unions in government seem to believe that cost has nothing to do with the support of a population.  All costs can be transferred to the tax payer with no effect.

I once did a study on the average wage in California.  At the time, I believe it was 1995, the average wage worked out to be about $75,000 per year for each taxpayer in the State (no consideration was given to benefits).  A wonderful figure -- however, when I eliminated government workers at all levels…the average wage was reduced to roughly $33,000.  That is the true example of our tax dollars at work.

The only legitimate functions for government are public safety, i.e. police, fire, military and trade.  All other departments and functions are to control citizens.

Yep, there's IS a civil war brewing.  That war will be the common taxpayer battling government workers and politicians. 

Hopefully, our dedicated military, police and fire will remember their Constitutional oaths to protect and defend the Constitution, and stand down as we exercise our right to "alter or abolish" the current governmental system.  Nothing would destroy the trust most Americans have in our true protectors than to have them defend our mutual enemies.

The new Civil War has already begun here in California.  Passage of Proposition 8 in support of marriage has brought the wrath of gays and their supporters who refuse to recognize a vote by the majority of the citizens of California.  They are sending death threats, creating blacklists, blockading businesses, extorting protection money and even pummeling elderly women in their rage.  Too bad most isn't being covered on the media.  (So much for those who espoused "tolerance")

We have bred a couple of generation’s worth of cannon fodder.  The most recent expects the world offered to them on a platter--with their personal choice of garnish.  Each generation has become less and less educated because of our unionized educational systems that taught to the lowest common denominator (for you recent graduates, the LCD is the mathematical expression of finding a dividing number).

Even on this blog or message board, it is astounding to see so many express opinions so eagerly without grammar, sentence structure, punctuation or logic.  Many of these opinions appear based on an utter lack of understanding of basic economics and monetary fundamentals.

turtledude:

CEOs can be fired by stockholders.  Can a union member not doing his job be fired?  Look at all the union members of AFSCME working for state and federal governments sitting on their behinds and doing as little as possible.  Also look at the size of the government payrolls.

Shareholders typically are not that involved in the operations of the companies they own. They are just investments to most people.

Management decides what cars to build, not the workers so we can place that blame there. The idea of converting the automakers to worker owned is not a bad one.

A big part of the problem is both management and workers are just bleeding the companies for what they can get before they go under. No longer any sense of pride or ownership.

Union "leadership" is just as corrupt as "management".  Management makes bad decisions with no consequence and just allows the unions to have what they want (after the ceremonial dance) with no concern for the future of the company or workers.

This card check is the desperate action of a dying union. If they really added value workers would be more than happy to vote for the union in a secret ballot.

I said this before, CEO's ,and managers salaries should be cut in halve, union workers on the line the same thing ,and trim the concessions, if that does not happen real fast an Bailout will not work,face the fact you people were way overpayed for a long,long time,but it's over now,but had good time while it lasted.Best thing is to let the unions go before every dam thing is made overseas.Unions are not needed anymore in 2008.

clement, philadelphia city employees are the worst.  twenty plus years ago businesses had to pay their commercial rent tax, wage tax and other payments in person, at city hall. that meant one person had to allot 3 days to stand in line to turn a check over to the city.  here's what they encountered: employees with tv's on their desk-watching it and talking on phone with friends, only servicing taxpayers at commercial breaks; run personal errands to cleaners, shopping, etc.  if city hall closed before that person made his/her company's tax payments, supervisors from dep't of revenue went down the line, took company names and employer rep names, and put place markers on the floor where everyone was.  picked up where you left off the day before. took an average of about 3 days to turn in a check.

I know someone who works at a Gm plant. He makes 28.00 an hour not 70.00. They work like dogs for money like that too. I went through a plant tour, and I wouldn't want to do it.

I think they mean the total package including the insurance, pension etc

If you think auto work is bad, try working in the fields where food is grown. Of course if the unions expand too much we will all have that thrill, in the gardens we grow to feed ourselves because we lost our jobs when our employer folded and our pension and 401k became worthless.

Sickofit,  why don't you tell that to the over paid athletes and other celebrities including Congress who can vote themselves a pay raise have fantastic healthcare and other benefits you may never attain in your lifetime?

This is the same stuff that was being said a year ago before the financial markets imploded. You blame the  poor  for buying homes they supposedly could not afford and then go into forclosure.  If the housing market and financial institutions implosion was really due to these poor folks buying what they could not afford, why did these financial institutions give them the credit/mortgage in the first place.

Couldn't this be just another miss-direction again, in which you blame the unions and the workers for the failure of the company to prosper when in actuality it is more due to missmanagement and greed by the upper echelons of these companies who are out of touch with what the American driving public wants and needs in the area of  cost effective transportation.  The problems that has been plaguing the big 3 has been going on for over 30 plus years.  They keep on designing and manufacturing producing products that the public does not want or need.   They kept building ugly and big gas guzzlers when other companies were building smaller more fuel efficient cars that did not end up in the auto repair shop every other week.   They have wasted enormous amounts of monies lobbying Congress to get out of making more fuel efficient safer cars, every year.   Now they blame the unions and the workers for wanting a decent standard of living.

What's wrong with earning 70 dollars an hour anyway?  Wouldn't surprise me if some of the folks criticizing the unions and the employees are the same folks that oppose raising the minimum wage to a living wage.

There is good and bad with every organization, but without the unions most folks would be working in sweatshop style offices etc and having to put up with it.   It is easier to ignore a worker but hard to ignore a million workers who come together as a group. 

Wouldn't surprise me if this is just another case of  the old devide and conquer tatic  all over again like was done with the realestate problems, blame the poor and not the realestate investors.   

Perhaps the reason why the other auto makers are even paying their employees anywhere near a halfway decent wage is because they don't want the unions to get their hooks into  their workforce or have to put up with the bad press that Walmart got for their practices towards their employees.

By the way I have nothing to do with any unions or the auto industry.  My car is a 11 years young  2 seater and is still going strong.  Well built, sturdy, handles well and stylish/attractive to boot with good gas milage for a car of this advanced age.  Will keep it even if I buy another car in the distant future.

Not trying to scare you sick of it 29 - and I want to try and stay on topic here - but you maybe don't want to know what an American Airline pilot makes on a per hour basis.

But wait, doesn't he also belong (literally) to a union too?

sick of it 29:

If you're a professional with a Master's, why can't you spell "concessions"?  Maybe that's the reason you only make $38 an hour...

Unions are the backbone of this nation.  They help workers around the world fight for better wages, better health benefits, and safer working conditions. 

If you want to blame the employee for wanting better pay, some form of retirement savings, etc., then you should probably avoid complaining about only getting 10 days off a year.  Looks like you need a union, brother.  People need to support their families, and as the prices of goods and services rise, stagnant wages aren't cutting it.  American workers deserve the American dream - why settle for less?  

And for your information, manufacturing jobs are skilled positions.  Workers in manufacturing facilities perform difficult tasks that can often be dangerous and life-threatening.  You should be ashamed of yourself - you've probably never even been inside a factory, and have no idea what goes on in one.  Before you shoot your mouth off, get informed.     

Sick of it 29,

First of all there is no UAW member that makes $70.00 per hour!!!!!!!! The average wage is probably $25.00 per hour. Secondly, what makes you think they are "unskilled"!!!!! What skills do you bring to the table with your "masters" degree????? I work for a large company with lots of people with "masters" degrees and we build state of the art fighter aircraft despite their "stupid" decisions!!! We also make money despite their arrogance!!!

What makes you think the UAW workers are "unskilled"??? Can you do what they do??? Can you assemble an engine or a transmission or an automobile??? Your arrogance and lack of education about unions and their function is pathetic!!!! Every CEO in America goes in and negotiates his pay and perks package prior to working for any company. Should I not be entitled to the same as an hourly worker?? That's what the union does for me!!

I bet there are a whole lot of people with Masters Degrees in Washington DC also........................Look where that has got our country !! Pay isn't and shouldn't alway be based on education, you are probably sitting behind a desk all day telling people what to do for $38 an hour, why are you complaining ? Assembly line work is tough, try it sometime !! Spend 10 hours a day hanging doors or putting on tires. How many people responding in this thread have actually ever worked in an assembly plant or for a Union ? Are your comments based on knowledge or just something you read, or heard from a friend who heard from a friend who heard from a....It's very easy to see that the MILLIONS of dollars companies spend on anti-union propaganda in this country actually works. Sitting back reading all the post on here I've come to one conclusion...people are just jealous, nothing more. Don't we want good paying jobs in this country ? A big part of the financial problem in this country right now is the lose of good paying jobs and the replacement of those jobs with low wage jobs. NAFTA....what a great idea !! By the way, did anyone see the price of any cars drop when they were moved to other countries to be built ?? Heck no !! Instead the top executives just got a bigger bonus !!

I am a G.M retiree as of 1997, and NEVER have I made $70. an hour. My starting wage back in 1970 was $5.61 an hr. and ended in 1997 at $14. an hr. plus health care. I spent the major portion of my years always on layoff, then and then plant closings, to the point that I had to retire. Where in the world the news media is getting this $70, an hr. bull is beyond me. And yes I was a line worker. Now on the other hand, skilled workers, tool & die, pipe fitters ect. were paid $26. to $ 32. an hr. But these people were college educated, and had to serve appreticeships. So please! until you work for the auto industries don't make bogus calls. Please put your vents on the ceo;s, flying jets with money cup handouts, therin, lies the problem.

Union Proud:

ON exactly what should a person's "pay" be based?  As an employer, I hire people to do the work my company needs to have done and I exchange money for performance.  If my company is profitable, it will survive.  If not, it won't.  Pretty simple. 

The compensation I pay is not based on difficulty, or education, or any of that.  It is based on my expectation that by paying what I pay, my company will be MORE PROFITABLE.  If I underpay, valued employees will seek opportunity elsewhere.  If I overpay, my company's survival may come into question.  If I pay appropriately, then there is equilibrium.  To a large extent, the marketplace will determine what is appropriate to pay for any job.  Honda, Toyta, Kia, et. al. have been successful in attracting the talent they need to be successful and they have done so with a compensation plan that gives them a real competitive advantage in the market place. 

Why is it worth $72/Hour to bolt the wheels on a car coming down an assembly line?  A bigger question is, "Why in the world isn't a robot doing that job?"  Don't you get it?  The labor force of the world is simply going to have to adapt to real changes in the way we earn our livings. 

Employment from a companies is not your ticket to a lifelong entitlement program.  You have the right to PURSUE happiness/properity; you do not have the right to HAVE happiness/prosperity.  It is up to YOU to carve out your own way in the world, bring value to your empoyer, adapt, engage, participate, inspire, and grow.  Isn't that what the folks who landed here in 1620 wanted?  Isn't that what the founding fathers had in mind?  Grow up.

I want to know where this $70.00 per hour figure is coming from?????? Hear say, rumors, it was blogged on the internet therefore it must be true!!!!!!!

A story I heard of out of Detroit was a family owned meat packing company that the union themselves ran out of business by demanding higher wages then the owner could afford, he could hardly make his house payment. He moved his family to relatives after the death threats began. Eventually the union torched the business and it burned to the ground! The owner collected the insurance money and ran for his life! The union burned themselves out of a job!

Despite the fact that your story is likely an urban legend, it makes no sense.  Why in the world would people so something that causes their jobs to be permanently lost?  Most of this union-bashing is just nonsense. 

Don.. the same things were said/done with the USWA (United Steelworkers), and they really were a bunch of thugs in some plants. They did defend morons that did such a bad job, or behaved in such a way that any of the rest of us would get fired, but not these guys. We all see where USWA is now....

I think the bottom line is a) UAW never in a bazillion years thought they'd face extinction, by the hand of the big 3 or by US, those of us who are faced with bailing the auto industry out, and b) the CEOs are still hanging onto their arrogance, thinkin a quick trip to DC, whine a little, stomp some feet, and they'd get the 25B. How long would it last? I like that Congress has them on the rails... Another group whose arrogance is in need of a wake-up call. I'd love to know how many of the big boy execs actually rose through the rank and file of GM, Ford, etc. I dont much like Nancy Pelosi, but I did like that she was blunt and told them, the CEOs, "you dont show us a plan for this $, we dont show you the $. " Bet its gonna be a LONGGGGGG weekend in Michigan.....

I do not think Nancy Pelosi is looking out for us, the rest of the people.  She also belongs to a union, the Democratic majority in congress at the moment, and she does have job security because unions spend so much to help re-elect her and her like.

The only reason she, Barney Frank, Sens. Reid and Dodd want to give the money to the big 3 is to ensure the UAW gets its money's worth.

Two and a hlaf million unemployed will take your taxes in the form of 39 weeks unemployment when the "small 3" fold. Add medical care, foreclosures, increased crime and the cost will be at least one hundred times the 25 billion talked about. Good thinking, let them fail.

I agree, Bob. We can't let them fail but they need extensive restructuring to become viable and should not be given a blank check. Part of that needs to be in the form of nixing the UAW and bringing wages, pension (which I would nix as well - let them contribute to a 401k like the rest of us), benefits, etc in line with national averages for the part of the country they live in and the type of work they do. All of that together is a HUGE drain in expense that can be cut directly off the bottom line.

What we do NOT want, however, is the government determining/approving how that restructuring looks. How many congressmen/women have actually run a business in their lifetime the size of GM or Ford? They are NOT qualified to make any decisions in that respect. Nor do we want government owning any stake in any company, imho.

1CEBITN

Well said!

Exactly.  Let's blame everyone else but we didn't have anything to do with this.  Consumers bought up every big gas guzzler the automakers could make but wait now we want small cars.  Build me a small fuel-efficient car and don't make more than $10.00/hr.

Per a reply above from Scott, his dad was/is a UAW worker. Not sure how old he is, but I didn't think he was a kid when I first read his posts. As I stop and pause, what do you say to a kid in his position...

Don't forget most of Europe is unionized. They are setting a fine example. Thirty five percent plus tax rate, failing social programs and massive unemployment. Look what we have to look forward to.

Jerry:

I'm 26 and my dad is in his 50's. I suppose that would make me a kid to some but everyone is someone's child.

Yep, Bob and according to the Wall Street Journal (Prior to election day I might add) Obama's tax policies will put us right in line with Europes effective tax rate... Start putting $$ in your mattress so the gov't doesn't know about it...

Buy gold, the physical stuff that you can hold in your hand, and farming and hunting equipment that does not use oil to power it. That will be the way of the future.

krock-whatever you do, you are paid too much.  Don't care what it is-you make too much money and you are sucking the economy dry.  It's all your fault.

Ya hit the nail on the head!

Wraith:

If you don't like it, take the advice all the non-union people have for the union workers: just quit and find another job before the union ruins your company. Shouldn't be difficult, you can surely e-mail them for references. *puts hand over mouth* Unless they're saying all this for financial or personal motives. *looks aghast*

Yes like I said we don't need unions anymore we are living in the year 2008 and not in the old days way back when they were needed.

Kathy,

Very few of the European auto companies post their executive salary data.  I am sure that most of the salaries are not as high as U.S. equivalents, but that is just an assumption, not a statement of fact.  Also, many countries have mandatory retirement ages that are enforced both by the state and the companies, so the salaries don't have time to "creep" up like they do here in the U.S.  Oh, Japan, India, Russia, and Malaysia have some ridiculously high paid corporate executives, but I guess that does not support your argument.  Many politicians come to their position multi-millionaires. That is true today more than ever in our elected officials.  Most politicians, at the federal level at least, take a pay cut when they are elected. 

There are very few who will complain about how much someone makes IF THEY WORK TO GET IT. Almost all will complain about the union "worker" who only makes a high wage because he's in the union, and if not in the union would be on the soup line because he's incompetent.

How much does GM pay laid off employees these days?