Bush says Citigroup deal needed to protect system

I agree but even harold and kumar had more sense then them.

the problem is citigroup, bank of america and jp morgan hold 1/3 of the worlds mess or about 3.3 times what the entire planet makes in a year.
a failure that large would take out thousands of smaller banks and institutions.

whats bad though.. is these banks may be too big to bail out..

our "bail out" is a minuscule fraction of their debt.

   The root of this problem and make no mistake about it is Credit Default Swaps. Worldwide there are over 50 trillion Dollars worth of this worthless paper floating around. So if these three bank hold 1/3 of it thats over 15 Trillion dollars so 300 billion is like a drop in the bucket.

Bush said he approved the action, recommended by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, while flying back to Washington on Sunday evening from meetings in Peru with Pacific Rim leaders.

Excuse me? Recommended by one of the fiscal retards who enabled this whole mess to begin with? Screw you Igor!

I think we need a redefinition of Corporate fascism and also a re examination of the term pused by corporate elites, "Bi partisanship." We actually have a system now that should be called Bi partisan corporate fascism.  Fascism is a class repsonse to Capitalism in Crisis.   It is also a marriage of corporate class power with the state, where class despotism, class dictatorship moves from its normal corruption and class power, which began with the birth of Capitalism and the betrayal of the democratic revolutions where property rights were above human rights, social rights beginning with commercial capitalism, mercantilism, and African slavery.

Under mercantilism, the free trade of slaves, existed in contradictory form, the free market and class despotism in normal corrupted form.  Adam Smith's social principle, supply and demand, his idealized, utopian, social principle of wealth, was soon betrayed, co opted by class, capitalist elites who falsely claimed him as their Mentor, father of Capitalism.   Class corruption has always followed, deformed production, trade and exchange to create oligarchy, class hierarchies, and servile, fractured middle class "toadies", especially in times of class crisis.  They usually become the shock troops for fascism, and Corporate fascism in Italy under Mussolini, and Germany under Hitler could not have succeeded without the "banality of evil", servilel, corrupt, "bourgeois" middle layers.

One can say there was at least working class parties, and resistance to these know nothing, mindless, servile middle class shock troops, in Germany, because Labor and the workers did put up a fight through their social ideology.  That is why Corporate fascism needed middle class thugs to crush resistance to help out Corporate fascists.

However Corporate fascism in today's LATE CAPITALISM, especially American Empire, does not even have such ideological resistance, workers resistance, since the whole of the two party system, is itself two corporate parties, with two corporate ideologies.  In fact, thins are so extreme, in America's ignorance, servility to class ideologies, that American Corporate Fascism can be accomodated by both LIBERALS AND NEOCONS.  Take a good look how easily the corporations and the state, the definition of corporate fascism can destroy democracy and Social Wealth in America.

If you get a chance to read Counterpoint and the article YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET by Mike Whitney, he points out how corporations and the idiotic two class parties,  can achieve the same fascist crushing without even the need of street goons to smash the workers.  It can be achieved merely by fiat, corporate power, and democratic complicity, and all those delusional OBAMA supporters who think he represent us:

http://counterpunch.org/whitney11242008.html

"There was a clue in Sunday's paper as to why Paulson is stiffing the car companies.  According to UPI :

"GMAC Financial Services said Thursday it had applied to the U.S. Federal Reserve for bank holding company status, a step toward securing federal aid. The auto and home financing company said it had also submitted an application to the U.S. Treasury to participate in the Capital Purchase Program set up in the $700 billion financial firm bailout program known as the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act. "As a bank holding company, GMAC would obtain increased flexibility and stability," the company said in a statement." (UPI)

So why would GMAC want to become a bank holding company if General Motors is headed for the chopping block? Could it be that the government is working out a secret deal with management to put the company through Chapter 11 (reorganization) just so it can crush the union and eliminate their pension and health care benefits in one fell swoop?  You bet. Car workers will be reduced to slave wages just like they are in sunny Alabama where sharecropping has moved indoors." 

A word of warning, this "BI PARTISAN" consensus, sometimes called the "Beltway consensus" represents the class ideology in crisis and corporate fascism embraced by both parties, including OBAMA.  The democrats did not even ask any questions when they threw a trillion dollars in the first bail out, they now continue to rescue Citi Bank and Car Companies, that has the same corporate fascist effect of smashing the working and middle classes.

Even more alarming, since OBAMA has surrounded himself with Warmongers, Zionists, NEOCONS, and liberal warhawks, this same BI PARTISAN CORPORATE FASCISM now looks like a move to go after Iran with Republican partners, and attack that regime with his corporate fascists as his cheerleaders, from Biden, to Hillary Cliinton, to Rham Emanuel, and Dan Ross all sharing the same imperial and corporate criminality.

HERE IS WHAT CONCERNED ME.  Israel will have elections after OBAMA's inaugeration and Mr. Netanyahu, the biggest YAHOO, will probably get elected who has no guilt about fascist foreign policies, any more than OBAMA and his Bi partisan war criminals.   A secret memo was leaked today, that ISRAEL will become the next NAZI invader, which of course means that American Empire and the BI PARTISAN DEMOCRATSL, CORPORATE FASCISTS, will support Israel to the hilt, as NAZI corporate imperialists.   Biden has already warned before OBAMA's election that such a BI PARTISAN FASCIST CRISIS will probably occur.  With the economy imploding and American Empire imploding, this class ideology is now moving towards extremis.  

Here is the link to the ISRAELI THREATS TO ATTACK...and keep in mind OBAMA'S support for these fascist Zionists.

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=76329&sectionid=351020101

The article regarding corporate bailouts and Auto Companies, is Counterpunch, not Counterpoint.  sorry.

While the country is darning our socks they are stuffing their stocks...

That's the holiday spirit!

So now we are bailing out a credit card company that routinely charges 21% interest?

lol

It's what's on

JoulesBeef is absolutely right.  This "bailout" is bailing companies out of a minuscule portion of their debts.  And I do agree that these companies may already be "too big" for the bailout.  But hey, check out the most recent news on expenditures on black friday--people actually spent more than they did this time last year.  So guess what takes people's worries away?  Cheaper gas prices.  Apparently, people could give a rat's behind about bailouts.  Which could push this economy into a precipice of self-destruction.

Guess I'm still one of the few steadfastedly holding out against a bailout that will happen no matter what I think...  *sigh*

Oh, P.S.  And the reason that these companies charge 21% interest is because they've grown to give credit to the average Joe without a job who cannot pay.  That's why the rest of us have been screwed.  My husband has steadily seen his credit card raise his rate from 6% to nearly 18%, and he's fishing around for any other cc company with far more reasonable rates.  He has incredible credit--I find that rate ridiculous and have told him repeatedly to close it.  But he won't do it until he has another company set... 

Oh, P.S.  And the reason that these companies charge 21% interest is because they've grown to give credit to the average Joe without a job who cannot pay.  That's why the rest of us have been screwed.

wrong. it's not "either - or". it's not "the people who have a job and are making great decision" vs "the people who have terrible credit and arent working and are buying jetskis".

you pay higher interest based on your credit score, which is a scale. the higher your interest rate goes, however, the more likely you are to find yourself in the same position of your "average joe" without a job who cannot pay. you're likely then to have more sympaty for EVERYONE caught up in the credit corruption.

we are ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.

We kind of already did on Nov 4th.

Should of done it in 2004. Little late now.

when china stops lending u.s. money.............good bye dollar. 

if you have the resources and the courage to believe what is happeing you should be out there working to end the fed.

our asses are grass.

Yep... sounds like it!

Yo-there - Great quote!  'Mission Accomplished!' - Bush & gang have now accomplished the unthinkable - kleptocracy has been locked into place for generations and pre-empt any real positive change that any future administration may try to make.  The 'Masters of the Universe' will get what they want and the U.S. will probably be in default and on the auction block at fire-sale prices within a year.  The crazy thing is that most won't even know what is going on!  Many who are well-meaning will call it a 'Stimulous or Rescue package'!  Others in the know will be snickering and salivating.

Much like the crooks in the Enron fiasco who laughed all the way while they ripped off everyone in their path,  I wonder how long it will be before the emails and recordings of  these thugs will come out bragging and laughing about how they really 'screwed grandma out of her retirement, broke those damn unions, and got rid of the rest of those whiners who think they should have a job and a life!'

It is why he opens it!

Every-time he opens his mouth, the stock market drops

The stock market rose from its depths in 2002 to a peak in 2007 while GWB was opening his mouth. Your point?

rickace should wake up and take a good look around...........even consevatives who are central are taking note of what is happening right before our eyes

unless rickace has a point.

Yep Ricklace though depths is a crock.  He opened his mouth and said 'Hey its a good idea to deregulate these guys!" . He opened his mouth and said "Transparency?  Who needs that crap?"  He opened his mouth and said, "Why bother wqrning people that this whole financial system is a pyramid scheme!"

Oops yep he opened his mouth a few too many times.

Brammy-546909

"Why bother wqrning people that this whole financial system is a pyramid scheme!"

There's a valid reason not to: the financial system is not a pyramid scheme.

KLconsiders

rickace should wake up and take a good look around...........even consevatives who are central are taking note of what is happening right before our eyes

Oh, I'm quite awake and indeed have been looking around and writing about it.

unless rickace has a point.

I indeed do. That you cannot grasp it does not change it.

Rixar13

Every-time he opens his mouth, the stock market drops.... Wish he would just keep Quiet.

The stock market will continue to drop when our new president opens his mouth. Will you blame that on him?

What I grasp and what you grasp are two different things, and one doesn't cancel out the validity of the other........difference is good, until that difference it the very tool used to decimate a nation. But your probably set.....I don't know, but I can guess.

LilCrow

Now common let's see here Mr Bushy has been right about ummmm errrr...~~~~Thinking~~~~~

Still THINking (get it, he is a THIN King)  thin minded, mean spirited and the world is going to be so much better come Jan 2009

All I want for Christmas is to hunting with Cheney.

Lisa, just make sure you're behind him.

my god.............your not listening.  The man I voted for has surrounded himself with the same people who have brought us to this POINT! And there is nothing hopeful about it. there is only one out..........and no one has given it to me.  Give me the link to PE with the group pre-campaign.  Show me something that puts him in a group of his own, where no deals have been made, no secret meetings have taken place, and no statement about the NWO has been uttered. 

Someone, anyone. link me. Tell me Obama is not part of this eliteist takeover and provide proof.  Otherwise............

prepare for the likes of which you have never seen or experienced. Prepare for headlines that say church attendance has spiked.  families are uprooting and moving home, to where they started.  non-americans are returning home as well to native countries, and remember to turn out the lights when you go.........................

Couldn't they do this now?

Like say vouchers, or a spending coupons on US-only items....?

Here's my question:

How many people don't believe that these bailouts are just a backend tax?

Or governement would have us believe that they have made these arrangements for all these BANKS to repay this money - Here's the reality: Who will be paying this money? The consumer (translate to mena taxpayer).

I don't care if you keep your money in a mattress at home, never own a credit card and grow most of your own foods. The banks will raise rates on customers, commercial and residential alike.  You NEED some type of services and most of those services are financed through these banks. They certainly aren't going to cut their pay to speed the payoff of this mess.

While they raise their rates, your day to day living expenses will increase at the same time.  While on the other end, you're screwed too repaying the deficit. I would say bend over but the American people are about to get it from both ends.

I don't want to hear one person complainng about those who pay no FEDERAL income tax.  They will be spending a higher percentage of their income paying this mess off because most aren't land owners and use more services.

Madman,

I challenge you to go into any discouont store (affordable to most) and find one thing of value made in America.... maybe SOME of the food but not all.

RAMEN NOODLES!!!!

Still to this day only 13 cents a pack!!!

Computer hardware, Car Stereos, Plasticware, incease, Cutery, shampoo, pre-paid cellphones.....

There's quite a few things out there....

RAMEN NOODLES!!!!

Still to this day only 13 cents a pack!!!

made in America?  LOL Here Ramen noodles runs about .25 a pack.

Yo-There

The ponzi scheme is not an apt description of the unprecedented expansion in credit over the past two decades because (1) there was no attempt to defraud and (2) there was no single beneficiary at the root. What a ponzi scheme and the credit expansion aided by fractional reserve banking do have in common though, is that both were doomed to go down in flames.

ricklace -

The ponzi scheme is not an apt description of the unprecedented expansion in credit over the past two decades because (1) there was no attempt to defraud and (2) there was no single beneficiary at the root.

Perhaps in a 'legal' sense (maybe House-of-cards is more acceptable), but IMHO the thought that there was 'no attempt to defraud' is one that strains credulity.  I was unaware that fraud was limited to a 'single beneficiary'?  Is the 'mob' (organized crime which has much in common with these financial services corporations)  a single beneficiary or a consortium which benefits from fraud, extortion, and other nefarious schemes?

greengal -

To clarify, the purpose of a ponzi scheme is to defraud. The purpose of extending credit is to facilitate business. Fraud could be incidental to extending credit, but it is not the purpose.

Fraud is of course not limited to a single beneficiary, but I was discussing a particular fraudlent vehicle (the ponzi scheme) whose promoters are the beneficiary.

To review: The ponzi scheme is not an apt description of the unprecedented expansion in credit over the past two decades.

ricklace - I think you made the point very well.  I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder.  Extension of credit to those who are obviously unable to pay by those who obviously know that to be the case and who are betting on the tax payer to pickup the cost if the deal goes bad sounds like bad business practice at the best and unethical and fraudulent at worst.  At least in my view of responsible, frugal action.

greengal

Ah OK, I was talking about the entire multi-decade credit expansion of which the subprime loans were a small part but yet a devastating one to the individuals who got in over their heads.

Extension of credit to those who are obviously unable to pay by those who obviously know that to be the case and who are betting on the tax payer to pickup the cost if the deal goes bad sounds like bad business practice at the best and unethical and fraudulent at worst.

Yes indeed. The mortgage business had been perfectly capable of operating properly until the feds decided to tamper with it by leaning on bankers to lend to unsuitable homebuyers and let them pawn their nonperforming loans off on the taxpayers through Freddie and Fannie. Bankers who played along with the government were complicit in causing all the hardship that followed.

Bailing out the failed banks was for many reasons the exact wrong thing to do. Businesses whose management makes grossly unsound business decisions should die the deaths they so sorely deserve, not be rewarded with federal funds. Yet, in a bipartisan effort, Congress and President Bush conspired to create an act of fiscal bungling the likes of which we've never seen before.

ricklace -

Yes indeed. The mortgage business had been perfectly capable of operating properly until the feds decided to tamper with it by leaning on bankers to lend to unsuitable homebuyers and let them pawn their nonperforming loans off on the taxpayers through Freddie and Fannie. Bankers who played along with the government were complicit in causing all the hardship that followed.

While there were problems with Freddie and Fannie, the record shows that contrary to much that is being spouted, the facts are that they held a very small portion of these subprime mortgages.  The government policies and programs which did exist applied to government regulated banks. The UNREGULATED mortgage companies are the big players and the recent crop of government 'non-regulators' were the accomplices in the scheme. The vast majority of these loans were agressively persued by mortgage companies and financial institutions who saw 'bundling' these loans as a big cash cow. 

I would encourage everyone to follow the advice of Shakespeare.

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend...." — from "Hamlet," Act 1, Scene 3 

green - Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure of how big a role F&F played in the disaster.

BTW Shakespeare's advice about not being a borrower is particularly apt for a deflationary environment, which we will very likely enter during the next few years.

What i dont get is how these corporations were allowed to get "to big to fail." Isn't there supposed to laws in place that block companies from getting to large? Also, why is it that when the auto-makers came looking for a loan our government wanted a plan of action before they will give them money, but the second a bank comes a long they just throw money at them?

does this country really need any company "too big to fail"....maybe we should demand that they break up into separate parts before we bail them out...If citibank is too big to fail do we really want them to remain that way... apparently the politicians do...we should demand that the ceo's of these co, step down w/o bonus's before bailout money..but it seems all they do is ask and they recieve w/o any stipulations or conditions...think about it ...the gov. is run by these corp. ...we can have elections but seems in reality that it means nothing..same result no matter who wins..the losers are the american citizens all the way around...

does this country really need any company "too big to fail"

katlin

Good question, and given the systemic risks created by mammoth companies it would seem prudent not to have them.

The bailouts as I've stated in numerous posts are tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. At the end of the day, they will have done nothing except perhaps slightly postponed the inevitable economic collapse and ensuing depression. The augmentation of the national debt will however exacerbate the situation when we arrive at the point where international investors no longer view Treasury securities as attractive.

The easy-credit policies of Alan Greenspan's Fed greased the wheels to get the rollercoaster to the top, and the "bailouts" and other fiscal bungling will ensure that the trip back down will be a very calamitous one. Our government really screwed the pooch this time.

Is there a article about it yet?

Its Shea stadium. Haven't seen a NV article on it yet. Being discussed on CNBC

Are you serious?

I heard about this.  The story I heard was that they had agreed to that prior to this crisis.  Not sure if it's true.

YPEs they agreed to it prior to the crisie however, it is time to end that deal... not with my money!

well, it's a bank crisis. not a people crisis.

the people crisis started quite a while ago. what - all of a sudden, just because the banks feel it too we have to stop everything and save the banks?

we should have stopped everything to save the people.

At least the Tiger Woods contract has been broken with GM.  They admit that they can no longer afford him and he is more insterested in his family obligations. Now what need Citi has to make Shea stadium Citi Stadium is beyond me.

Isn't it nice we the tax payers have a stake in Shea Stadium.....ARRRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

it will become a private club...........regular americans won't be able to get through the door.

It is to be called CITI STADIUM and it's not the only one...comerica stadium in detroit, and a few others with bank names...all have recieved bailout money....nice hey...

Sounds of 666?

Even if they do act on that, there a big precentage of error.....

The question is WILL they go ahead with it......

I have no doubts that it will pass. It is a matter of time. Have you seen the mindless drones out educational system has been pumping out? And who controls the educational system? Think about this long and hard. What has been the greatest control of the masses? Information, control ed at one point by kings at another by religious groups at another government and now at the hands of the largest most powerful conglomerates our nation and plant have ever seen. Our children are being taught how to be good little complacent pawns for the new system of slavery MONEY.

Dear trekker,

With all due respect, we all acknowledge, WASHINGTON is the problem.  The election is over....can we move on to the constructive or at least a new discussion that goes beyond Obama=Bad?  That kind of us vs them mentality is also part of the Washington and Wall Street are pimping the American people.

This is serious stuff and finding a solution will be far better than finding blame.

Oh littlechica I think you have misunderstood me. I am not even sure that Barak Obama knows to which ends he will be used. The President is no longer the position the fore fathers of our nation established. I do not think that Barak is necessarily a divisive or malicious individual I believe that there is something much more insidious at work. If Barak does anything that is not beneficial to the American people fiscally and in regard to the removal of civil liberty I think it will be unwittingly. I believe that the same powers that wanted George Bush in the Oval Office also need Barak Obama to achieve their goals. I am saying that there should be an us against them and the us is the American people and the them is the Government.

Are we so trusting of our corporate Government that we would not hold them accountable. I have many hopes for President Elect Obama but the fact that the person he chose for the head of the administrations Economic council has been a leading force over the past fifteen years in regard to making economic decisions for this country makes me a bit wary of who is in charge and why decisions are being made. We can not cower in fear but we must be cautious as to how much trust and validation we give our leaders.

i have no passport and I have no bank cards.

but you can bet your sweet taxpaying ass that ID is coming in a take it or starve kinda way......................

awake yet?

Dear Trek,

Thanks for the clarification.  I misunderstood.  I agree regarding your wariness of the reconstituted economic leadership.  Since they have been the pied pipers of this financial mess.

Perhaps we need to start discussing "Tea Party 2.0."

Thank you for your understanding. Tea Party 2.0 sounds like a very important thing to take into consideration.

we should be burning our credit cards. those are non-secured debts - they try to harrass the individual defaultors in small claims court, but they could never handle a mass abandonment.

Which is exactly what has started to happen.

Which is exactly what has started to happen.

not exactly. what has happened is that the default rate has gone up. but it's not like half of all mortgage holders, or even a quarter of all mortgage holders, or ANY significant credit card holders, have abandoned their debt. what i mean by "mass abandonment" that they wouldnt be able to handle is numbers in a quantity that would prevent legal action or even individual foreclosures.

when i say we should be burning our credit cards, i mean we should be actively and quickly working to break the system. the system is claiming it's broken, but it's not. it's still operating - it can afford to pay the people it employs to execute foreclosures and manage defaulted loans. breaking it means causing it such harm that it literally cant afford to bring anyone to court, that it cant afford to foreclose on all the people who have defaulted, etc.

it's like unemployment. it's - what - 6.5% or something? - maybe thats just in my state - eithe way, it's considered really, really high, and it IS really, really high. but it's not enough to break the system - it's not enough to cause a breakdown of the system which created it. and the number is artificially low anyway, and it's still not breaking. long-term unemployment, because an economist said it, isnt included in the unemployment rate. because we judge those who are long-term unemployed as not willing to work - it's no different from declaring that it's the individual's fault that he defaulted on a mortgage - in reality, that person thought that maybe his income and standard of living would improve as time went by, just as everything around him was improving. either way, the point is - we say it's high unemployment, but it's nothing like it is in many nations - including many nations who have some of their citizens working for american corporations.

the point is NOT that we need higher unemployment or that i desire unemployment. i'm unemployed, so to me, unemployment is 100%. i would never say that a valid act of protest would be to increase unemployment. i'm simply comparing numbers, and trying to stave off the standard hyper reply from a rightwing extremist choosing to take my words out of context.

but i am saying that the people have it within our power to affect change, and if a great majority or even an otherwise significant number of people were to decide that the banking system that is controlling us is corrupt and is worth drastic measures, we could really cause a crisis for them - one which would be impossible for our politicians to hide more of our taxpayer money under.

speaking of drastic measures - think about what the corporations do to us if they feel it's necessary. they cut all ties. they pay tax-subsidized severance packages and force early retirements - or they simply cut pensions - they do this "legally" by convincing the government to make a law which allows it - and then they cut deals with unions so they can reinvent their workforce as younger people who make less money but pay higher health insurance premiums, and they have abandoned the idea of tempoary layoffs in favor of firings, even if they hire a new person for the same job a year (or less) later. all they have to do to cut payroll in half is fire 10 people, wait a few months, give the department a different name, and hire 10 people 20 years younger. they do these things because they pay the government, via lobby groups (or directly) to enact laws to allow them to do it.

well, we dont have the means to convince our own congressperson that we should have more flexibility as workers or, worse, as consumers. so we have to use the power we do have. and if we all burned our credit card bills, creating true mass abaondonment, we would break the system. we just need the balls to do it.

if you dont have money, you need balls. the corporations dont have balls - they just have money. they are cowards - we need to exploit the only power we have - which is the true fear and impotence of the corporation. the corporation cannot exist in its current form without the implicit approval of the people. same with the government - we do have the power to change things, but 1. we have to recognize that a bank really isnt in trouble if it is in the position to take a billion-dollar bailout from US - from ME and YOU! and 2. we have to have the courage to take what power we have and USE IT.

but no- when people read "lets burn our credit cards," they think selfishly - just like all of us who dont have the stomach to avoid paying taxes to fund a war - yeah, it's the right thing to do, but i'm scared of what might happen to ME. meanwhile, WE continue to suffer as a whole because of what the ME is frightened to do.

Well, I will be as honest as I can given your response.  My wife and I have made the decision to stop paying our credit debt.  It isn't much compared to the sums of money being flung around but it is our protest to our paying (even if we don't want to) and our children's children being forced to pay against their will that turned us towards this end. 

My statement above was more along the lines of whether they want to stop paying or they need to stop paying, the defaults are rising.  They will continue to rise for easily the next four to six years.  Just as the writedowns will continue, the layoffs, the bankruptcies, the rising unemployment regardless of what technique the bean counters use to massage the numbers, this crisis will continue. 

We do have the power to affect change, and change is exactly what is happening.  The first depression did not occur because of a lacking response from the government.  Just as the lost decade of Japan did not happen because of their central bank failing to react.  The term "pushing on a string" is what happened in the 30's, is what happened in Japan,  and is what is happening now.  People are waking up to the idea that the debt fueled party is over.  They are hungover and do not want another taste of the drug that brought them to this state.  All we need to do is refuse to borrow. 

That's it.  By not taking more debt on the fiat currency/fractional reserve system will grind to a halt.  And the funny thing about it is that will/is happen(ing) no matter what TPTB do to prevent it.  You can print $8 trillion dollars but you can't make me borrow it.  Which is why things are still headed down.  We are overcapacity in every sector, except energy, the government will do everything it can short of holding a gun to your head and telling you to spend, and it will be futile.  This is history repeating itself.

The system is crashing.  The greed and excesses have led to a critical mass of leverage in the system.  That leverage can only go on if everyone keeps borrowing.  Once you stop borrowing deflation hits, and hits hard.  All we need to do now is sit back and watch (and try to stay clear of the mess as it falls apart).

Gumwars and firsty;

So how would it look?  What would encourage a person to take you two up on your suggestions......in the event that one had never taken a stand like this, what would one do?  and what would come up if they did it? 

Gumwars and Firsty:

There is a big hole in your proposition and that is that there are people that see this as a moral decision. I for one have a few credit cards with very little debt on them but the fact of the matter is that only a small percentage of what I owe is actually interest. This being the case I find it theft for me to not pay back what I have given my word to pay back. Especially if I can afford to pay it back. The debtors do not have to be moral but I do because of certain issues of faith. Now I am paying my cards down and will not establish nor accumulate any new debt. If you do not pay your mortgage you will most likely end up homeless and then what use would you be to the movement.

I suggest we educate our public how to get along without credit. It is possible to survive without 10 motorcycles, jet skis and 60" plasma TVs. Just stop using credit and take care of your current obligations and it will have a very similar effect.

if half the citizens of america were "homeless" because of foreclosures, no one would be able to stop communities from banding together and using the existing shelter resources (like vacant, bank-owned homes) to their advantage.

i think if someone has debt that can be paid off by the end of the year, then they should go ahead and pay it. but dont pay any interest.

part of the problem, bear in mind, is that if you dont use a credit card and/or a checking account (which usually bear little or no interest, and usually include fees for being poor or not having access to a bank teller all the time), you are prevented from participating in many areas of american commerce. it is this aspect, particularly, of the banking system, which puts me in the position of advocating debt abandonment - we are being coerced by people richer and more powerful to give them more money and more control. it is a form of extortion. it may be slow and gradual, but it is still extortion.

morally, i feel that a wrong is a wrong regardless of scope. it is wrong to physically harm someone whether that means stabbing them with a paperclip or pushing them off a building. therefore it is wrong for a bank to extort $2.50 for an ATM transaction (ATM transactions are essentially corporate taxes on the poor, as are low-balance fees - banks make money on EVERY PENNY that exists in EVERY ACCOUNT - that was supposed to be the business model, until they began these extortions), just as it is wrong for a bank to rip us off to the tune of $75 billion in OUR TAXPAYER MONEY. that is OUR MONEY. we are being asked to pay the banks so they can continue extorting us.

the blackmailer is getting his ransom and now he tells us that unless we give him more money, he's going to have to stop getting ransom money from us.

look at the credit card agreement you signed. every line on that agreement is the result of a well-lobbied bill that your politicians signed off on, and your presidents signed off on, probably without you receiving as much as a heads-up FYI note in your mailbox. without signing that agreement, you would have been excluded from many areas of our commerce - you wouldnt have been able to rent a car, buy a plane ticket, stay in a hotel room or do ANYTHING on the internet. if you are too poor to avoid a low-balance fee, you still need a checking account to do nearly ANYTHING, and you cant find shelter in america without going through a credit check, which is a banking system designed to define all individuals on ONLY financial terms, which is an inherent suppression of humanity, and therefore an inherent suppression on morality, and which creates a business model where the banks make more money (interest, fees, reduced options) by dealing with "more risky" individuals, further encouraging extortion.

the system itself is immoral and corrupt. look at it like this - if your family had fallen into completely understandable circumstances which happened to invite the unavoidable and commercially necessary intrusion of the mafia, would you think twice about at some point taking drastic measures and abandoning all debts, presuming that the mafia had been crippled to the point where it couldnt harm you anymore? banks harm people. they put people out on the street. these mega-corporations exploit workers here and around the world - i worked for an international company who had people working for them in india who traveled on buses for 4 hours to get to work every day - that is exploitation, because they are exploiting an infrastructure that affords those workers no standard of living. these are the corporations we are talking about. citigroup is run by saudis who support nationalist efforts and therefore terrorism here and abroad. these are CEOs who would fire you in a heartbeat if it meant higher profits.

so i dont have a hard time fighting these businesses. i abandoned all my credit card debt 4 years ago. one of the only reasons i cant abandon war taxes is because the legal system is hovering over me - not because of the debt, but because i'm a divorced father sharing custody of my children, and i cant quite get away with that yet. i still have a checking account, but i have been able to eliminate fees incurred with their chosen electronic deposit/withdrawal system by simply calling up and screaming. there was a pod on currenttv a few weeks ago about how easy it is, in fact, to take your bank to small claims court, and win, whenever they try to stick you with an overdraft fee - particularly if it was due to a delayed withdrawal or if the amount of your overdraft was very small and very temporary. i am currently being sued for one debt (not my earliest debt, by the way - i think that right now, banks go after credit card defaulters somewhat randomly - the idea is to make it impossible for them to go after anyone with any success), but so far no action has been taken. a few reasons:

- they first tried to sue me in my town court. this failed when i simply appeared for the hearing. they did not appear, twice. when they called me and i told them that i was challenging the debt because they hadnt provided receipts or any documentation on what i purchased, they told me that if the city court dismissed the case, the lawyers would simply go to county court (double jeopardy apparently doesnt apply - another corrupt law enacted by lobby groups) - not appeals court, but they would bring the court up in a different courtroom. (at this point, you only talk to lawyers. i have never answered a single phone call or a single letter from a collection agency)

- city court didnt dismiss the case - they issued a finding, an order, in favor of me. a month later, i was served for county court.

- you can find online how to file paperwork at your courthouse. in fact, the city court clerk was so helpful that she asked me to keep her posted on how things go, because she said that you just have to fight them and suggested that they dont really fight you in court, but rather try to use the court to harass you, which is what i'm finding. i filed a response to the lawsuit, which was NEVER ANSWERED by the attorneys. i also received a threat in the mail that the sheriff "may" make a list of my assets. this never happened. at this point, i get a call about once every two months from the attorneys, who i've already spoken to and told them what they need to do, including that information in my court response, which demanded documentation, which, now ONE YEAR LATER, they still have not provided. i dont answer those calls, because my last communication to them, and via the courts, was to demand proof of their claims.

- also, i found out that the legal firm ran a credit check on me prior to contacting me about the lawsuit - prior to any contact. i included that in my response, because that was illegal - you have to sign off any time anyone runs your credit.

i understand what it means to live a consistenly moral life. we may not share the same ideals - i doubt that any two people do, exactly - but i arrived at my decision not through desperation (i could have filed bankruptcy 4 years ago and at this point been in much better "credit check" condition than i am now), but through thought and deliberation, and i find it not only morally justifable, but morally necessary.

i have never missed a rent payment in my life. but i wouldnt qualify for an apt or house rental that checked my credit, at least not yet. the more the market shifts with vacancies and poor people, the lower the required credit "should" get - but now, the banks are continuing to manipulate the market by lowering approvals - by actually making it harder for people to find shelter. this has to change, and we can change it, but if we allow the bailout, we allow the continued abuse. this reality exists for those who are out of their houses as well as those in them - the people who cannot help but try to fight back are affected, morally, by those with the means not to fight back. we must all recognize this as a moral imperative if we hope to make this society a better place for all of us, not just for those who happened to dodge, so far, the bullets of our brand of capitalism.

absolutely firsty.................!!!!!!!!!!!!

Firsty, have you thought about taking action through the FTC (or state attorney general)?  The stuff they did is in clear violation of the Fair Debt Collection Act. 

no - i have chosen to avoid "the system" as much as possible. i'm not looking for a deal or a compromise. i've reported legal abuses in the family courts to the ACLU and the attorney general, to categorical refusals. i've reported health insurance company abuses to the attorney general to no result. i have no faith in the system at all.

This would happen if our goverment was.... NICE......

But nice doesn't make money, so it'll never work.....

Don,t get me wrong.  I don't think there are many people who deserve a bailout.  If you can't afford it, don't buy it.  However, I have equity in my home that is shrinking daily, and anything that would stablize the housing market, and make prices start rising again is OK with me.  We can't change the fact that people got in over their heads, but we have to stop the bleeding.

Ok, your house is losing value.....

But look around your home, it's still the same way it was yesterday, right?

Don't read those quotes on your home.... Just put them up so you can laugh at them when we get through this....

Normally I would agree with you whole heartedly.   But I may need to be moving out of town in a couple of months and would love to be able to sell my house for at least as much as it once was worth.  I think I'll have to rent it for a couple years.  :)

Good idea, if you can keep THAT home and move into another, then rent it and make some extra profit while having a plan B....

how much your house is worth directly effects you credit.. anyone have their available credit cut tot the point that a missed payment puts them over the limit now?
99% of this haas zip to do with people buyign things they cant afford.. it's just a simple answer they coulfd throw on the ir ways and hope you dont blame the status quo.

had every home in america got forclosed.. it wouldnt hurt the us as much,.. a minor recession.
we just had too large a gdp.
the derivatives though.. are worth ten times the worlds gdp and citigroup owned about 10% of the worlds derivatives.. so citigroup stood to lose approximately what the entire planet makes in one year.

thats why a few foreclosures in the US.. brought down the entire planet. It wasnt the hoems failing it was the complex finacial packages known as derivatvies. Adn what really sucks, it wil cost us millions if not billions just to unravel the derivatives to see how much in debt we really are.
They really are complex.

Plus, we can take those (already foreclosed) homes and housed homeless workers living in those "tent cities".....

Sometimes, I wonder if I'm the madman, or the leaders....?

OK take the Trillion that they have dedicated to this bailout.  The 25 Billion they are considering for GM. The 300 Billion on the back end in tax greaks thqt accompanied this bailout that no one knew about until the fat lady sang.

Lets see.. that's 1,2,3 a whole lotta darned money.  There are about what 12 billion people in this country give or take?  Put two TRILLION into that in the form of rebates.. coulda saved some houses... coulda fed some familes...  Bank liquidity would have gone up just on the sheer amount of deposits. Businesses would have been saved.

HOWEVER:  The governement would not have been able to control it.  hmmm

hmm sorry that was 3oo million people money could have gone a lot further

the logic remains the same. and it's good logic. the govt should be returning billions of dollars to the taxpayers. this will have a longer-lasting and better result on the economy. the govt isnt there to protect the banks or any business. it is there to protect the citizens of its nation. the banks are not citizens. taxpayers includes everyone who works at banks and owns businesses. if businesses suffer as a result of the market, which they themselves have been manipulating for decades without considering the ramifications of their actions (which we have now), then they suffer, and fold. people dont fold - people dont go out of business. bad businesses should be allowed to fail. unlucky businesses in a bad position will sometimes suffer the same fate. but we should not be allowing our people to fail. the existing bailout plans - including obama's version of it - will make certain businesses rich. the alternative, to give money back to the people, is not necessarily to make everyone rich - just because giving all that money to people wouldnt create a nation of rich people doesnt make it a bad idea.

@!$%# the banks. they have been ripping us off for far too long. we are forced to use banks as a matter of modern commerce - and that is a very bad thing. it needs to change. if those CEOs are worth the billions they earn, they should be smart enough to come up with a new business model, and their credit should support sufficient business loans. nobody to loan them money? then the banks' model is a failure. if the business model fails, and it has, then it needs to change, not be propped up with taxpayer money.

besides, if you want more for a fund to return to the people, end the war a month early. thats another ten billion dollars or so. 6 months early? almost the cost of the bailout, plus the added bonus of saving real lives of americans and iraqis - invaluable.

Don't know why our government keeps trying to shove the idea that trickle down economics works, it does not.  Trickle up however does.  By the time all the oversight committees and bureaucrats get paid there will be very little left to trickle down.  Whereas had the money been out in on the grassroots level, almost every dime would have trickled up in some way even if just in increased bank deposits.

using my money to give to banks in the vain hope that someday i might see some of that money again, after i've already been giving the banks interest, fees, and other usury costs, for almost my whole life - doesnt make much sense. it doesnt make ANY sense. it is illogical.

we arent stupid. and we dont have to be geniuses to see that THIS JUST DOESNT WORK. they tell us that because we're not economists, we dont "get it." that it's too complicated for us and so we should trust em. @!$%# em.

i will have more money if i keep more money. period.

kennedy by executive order tried to kill the fed in 1963.. wonder what would have happened if he hadnt gotten shot.. would we have those silver certs he was issuing?

being agaisnt the fed was a leftist issue before it was a libertarian one :P

Vision, just watch and wait....

You'll see this "magic wand" that our political leaders have.....

well most of fiance is a fairy tale.. we have a faith based system.. we will just have to have extra faith that we dont actually owe anything :P

A magic wand would come in real handy right now. 

The one thing we don't have is a free-market system. We think we do, we say we do...but we don't. Woe to the small businessperson who tries to enter a market dominated by Fortune 500s. It's become impossible to compete effectively.

I couldn't agree more. We have privatized wealth and socialized debt, all while Republicans keep fear-mongering over Obama's "socialist" policies. Ignorance has superseded common sense.

Ditto on the fear. We have to bail out AIG et al. because if we don't, we'll all starve to death and Earth will spin right off its axis. Well, at this rate, we're all going to starve to death anyway, save the top 5 percent in this country. 

This situation has demonstrated the abysmally incompetent management from the very top of both government and corporate America. The only thing worse is the shameless, flagrant and unrepentant greed. These guys make the robber barons look like organ grinders.

No doubt Brian and the Federal Reserve is the bigest Bank of them all.

Very, very well put indeed; excellent.

they announced today that ALL bank card interest rates are going up and credit limits are coming down....plus minimum payments will increase...see we the taxpayers pay for the baillout plus pay highers fees...no win situation for taxpayers...

what if the ideas just above were an action that one could undertake to respond to this kind of behavior.....see above about stoppoing use of credit and more.

O.K. if you are talking about new credit not about debt you already owe..banks are becoming less lenient...almost had my car repossed after missing just 1 month payment and they call me 3 times a day when I missed a month of CC payments... they threaten and remind you of the dire consequences of a lower credit score..they certainly don't 'FORGIVE'  and it really PO's me that my tax money is going to bail them out !!

no, debt you already owe as well as any new...............it's going around as a kind disobedient act" if you will.  Some are considering it as a statement about the future and penalizing the behaviors of these credit giants who affect and control your life and the future.

car and home loans are different from credit card loans. credit card debt is unsecured debt. if you can help it, never miss a car payment or a rent/mortgage payment, because those loans can be taken back - the bank still owns your car until you've paid it off. but the bank does not own your TV (or your food) if you use a credit card to buy it.

the credit scores are 1. corrupt - they serve to create financial ghettos depending on your financial identity. it's not about being able to buy an expensive car with good credit, it's about not being able to find a home because of bad credit, or about paying higher interest rates on the same product, over the same loan period, because of bad credit. that is inherently corrupt and, 2. relative. if all americans abandoned all credit card debt, in 6 months the current credit scale would be irrelevant.

fisty i agree that the banks have run a corrupt business model for most of us..but like you say did so with the blessings of our politicians...Biden was instrumental in siding with CC co. to binge on americans w/ exorbitant interest rates and more diff. bankrupcy rules..one of the main reasons I would not vote for that ticket...congress had a chance to correct some of this w/ the hearings they had last summer or spring but seems it went nowhere...they appparently listened to the CC lobbists instead..being able to change interest rates w/ little notice or reason...and true you will find it nearly impossible to live w/o credit today ,the way the system is set up....we need a mass public outcry of enough is enough but it has to be a majority of people ...I feel as times and money get harder more and more people will find themselves in this position..I am not a dead beat and I do feel a need to repay what I legally owe, but who deserves 29.99 interest?? .that makes it neasrly impossible for someone to repay... and banks know this full well..the money system now is fueled by debt not investment which is why we are currently in this mess...a few people will not change it...not sure if even a majority of people will change it unless the whole system collapses and we start new...the gov. is not willing to let that happpen...  

the whole system can collapse. our lives do not depend on the system. the headline of the article says it all - the bailout is necessary to protect the system. but the system is not worth protecting. we fear what we dont know. when i envision the dead system, i envision a world where we have control over where our money goes, and where we can control our spending without having interest fee overheads and tax dollar overheads which merely support the interest rates.

again - as far as what kind of numbers are needed to force the system down - the mortgage system is reeling from a pretty small number of defaulters. if the banks continue to collect on 90% of their debt, the "reeling" is pretty minor, and they WILL survive with the bailout - they will continue to collect on most of their debt and creating a nation of servants to the system. imagine if even 25% of all credit card holders bailed out - the banks would literally not be able to handle the outcome.

we cant expect, and we ought not to have expected, anything to come from hearings or any political actions. the politicians are in bed with the corporations. the politicians - barney frank or joe biden or whoever - are the ones who created this system by passing laws the public was not fully aware of - we have been stripped of our powe. this cannot be corrected by voting, because no active politician will choose to forgoe his or her control, because that control depends on the system.

the system can be corrected, but only by the people, but it within our power to do it. if half the people who voted for obama abandoned their debt, it would instantly bankrupt the banks, and they would have no viable recourse, because the legal system cannot bear that. we CAN do it.

abandon debt.

by the abandoned citizen.

yeah, i like it.

does this qualify as civil disobedience?

i think so. it's certainly peaceful, and doesnt involve getting in the way of the cops, which is always good.

the headline of the article says it all - the bailout is necessary to protect the system. but the system is not worth protecting.

Amen brother.

KLconsiders

abandon debt.

One cannot abandon debt. By law a debtor has contracted to his or her obligee.

By virtue of the bailout(s) they are getting their pound of flesh one way or another.  Are you defending this fatally corrupt system, or just poking around?

defending the fatally corrupt system, we go back and forth quite often.........funny part is, some folks will be abandoning debt in for the sake of nutrition and keeping thier jobs.  Now add to that those who could do it as a statement of protest to this fatally corrupt system, and you got somethin!

By law a debtor has contracted to his or her obligee.

again, for those who didnt catch the distinction - the action being proposed (which has already been undertaken by some) is against credit card debt - non-secured debt, in which the banks agree to trust that the consumer will pay it back. yes, there is a contract, but there is no debtors prison in america (unless you fall 30 days behind on child support, of course). the banks have worked with the government to create a system wherein people are forced to sign credit card agreements not because they want a credit card, but because a large part of commerce is restricted to credit cards, which includes bank cards for checking accounts. i should not be forced to put my money in a bank. if you dont put your money in a bank, you are disenfranchised. and the banks use this fact to manipulate user agreements, to charge unfair interest, to charge unfair fees - there is no protection for the consumer in these laws. the system is corrupt. this is akin to telling your kidnapper that you arent going to tie your own hands, even if you already promised to, because that promise was made under duress. the fact that we are forced to join the credit system is a form of duress and extortion.

firsty,

I suggest you find yourself a local credit union that has high member participation.

those are good options. right now i'm not being abused by my bank because i know what to do to avoid fees. they are earning money on my balance, which is, to me, an acceptable exchange of goods and services.

but on a community level, the average person shouldnt have to know how to work the system on a daily basis in order to avoid being taken advantage of. credit unions are a really good option for many people, though.