$14B auto bailout dies in Senate

Big Three, congressional Democrats agreed to use an existing program that was to help carmakers retool their factories to make more fuel-efficient cars.

So let me get this straight. We infused the Banks with as of now $350 billion. That was supposed to free up the credit market. Now the Big 3 need loans but the banks won't lend. So what are the Banks doing with the money we gave them?

....soooo...the present-day congress is still being manipulated by the GOPers.....the Dems keep making concessions, and it's never enough...It's my wish that the big three be made to build toward supporting an energy independent-minded bunch of cars.....the big three have been foot-dragging, fight the minimum MPG issues, and the enviornmental issues, while the Japanese just did it.....Their whole mentality put the workers at risk, and the whole model needs to get up to speed.....soo....how do you keep 2-3 million people from destitution and, at the same time make an actual contribution to diminishing our appetite for oil??  Oh yeah, all you big, overweight people will find that you CAN fit yourself into a smaller, more energy efficient car, but, yes, you can make a livable place to survive, should you lose your house first..... Yeah, I'd buy a second-hand suv, to cut down on having to pay rent, it may turn out to have been a wise choice....

....no mention about what's been holding up sales....you know...the credit thing???  Great market for the affluent, Im sure....

I think Congress would be right to reject any form of a bailout package for the Auto giants unless they strongly comitt to radically redirecting their business plans to more green, zero pollution, fuel efficient products.

What would be the point of ploughing large amounts of tax-payers money into a sector that should've cleaned up its act a long time ago if it weren't for it's total disregard on environmental issues through dollar tinted shades.

The US could actually take the lead here in steering other market sectors into taking serious environmental issues to the core of their business strategies. I think now is a good a time as any for world governments to start steering their industries down the green path resulting in possibly a possitive side-effect of the global financial crisis?

Maybe there are actually people in congress that actually listen to the American people when we say enough. Let the free market reign. There are investors that would buy the big 3 if/when they fail and they will fail, they are a giant burearcarcy and inefficient as all get out and go. These investors will keep the work force make the companies lean and mean and actually compete with foriegn companies. Wouldn' t that be nice. All this bailout is basically is a band aid on a cut that needs a turniqute. We give them 14 billion now and 3 months from now give them more, that is what is going to happen "Car Czar" or not.

Let the markets dictate what happens.

Lets get this straight the House bill wants the ten million people out of work to pay for the wages, pensions, and benefits of the auto industry and hope they can pay it back ?  I hope the Senate in their wisdom are a bit smarter than this and the American voters also when the time comes express their opinion of this sham.

It's a political "rock and a hard spot", damned if you do and damned if you don't. The one thing that keeps me from saying no to a "government "car czar," these company's did this to themselves. They made and continue to build cars that the oil company's make a fortune from, and didn't adjust to the needs of the people buying their product. This really isn't a political issue, it's poorly run business ventures that a lot of people sucked dry of operating capital. Build a car for the future, by building cars that the average working class American can afford. Keeping in mind, it shouldn't cost a few hundred dollars every time you take a new car in for service, or $650 dollars for a 30,000 mile tune up. To much "dead wood" at the top of these company's.

EXCUSE ME!

Democrats agreed to scrap language — which the White House had declared a deal-breaker — that would have forced the carmakers to drop lawsuits challenging tough emissions limits in California and other states. But they kept a provision to force the automakers to abide by those states' limits — a kind of consolation prize for environmentalists, who already were livid at the raid of the fuel-efficiency program.

Senate Democrats unveiled a nearly identical measure that omitted the requirement, but that bill still faced long odds.

Ok, let's see...GOP and BUSH still at it, still trying to block ANY enviromental controls on the auto makers.  More green?  Not if the republicans and the oil companies have anything to do with it!

This has been the driving force for the fall of the US companies FIGHT EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING TO DO WITH FUEL ECONOMY OR EMMISSIONS.

Come on you fools...QUIT PLAYING GAMES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PEOPLE!!!

Ford has enough money to survive into 2009 and didn't ask for any help at this time. Seems to me that logic dictates unload the CEO's of GM and Chrysler and start over.

yes this is the GOP answer to all of the workers in the auto industry. no we do not care if you lose your jobs and homes. let your families st rave and go homeless. yes the industry needs to change and met the needs of the American people with cars that are fuel efficient. yes we need to loan them the money. no we do not need to give it away like we did the insurance companies and the wall street bankers. we need to keep Americans working and we need a united congress to do so. this is why all GOP members must be voted out for they care for and are only interested in the investments they have. they had many millions tied to the insurance company we bailout and the bankers on wall street have the other millions of the GOP money so the bailout was a sure bet for the GOP.

Who will have bootstraps to pull themselves up after the repub party takes it's stand for itself anf its ideology, they have forsaken main street for wall street and patted them on the back for bad finacial decisions, we now know without a doubt that they are not looking at the full picture, perhaps they want things to be worse so they can say "see, we told you Obama was a bad choice", what a bunch of great americans, yeah patriotic to a tee!

Just out this morning: New weekly jobless claims rise to 573,000.  Highest level in 26 years. 

This isn't the last weekly jobless claims that will look this ugly.

Ideology is an admirable trait - we just can not afford it right now.  What are you willing to risk?  Are you a gambler?  Do you really want to gamble we won't dive head first into a full blown depression?

Yes there are approximately 150,000 to 200,000 UAW workers.  You so want to destroy the union that you are willing to put an additional 2.8 MILLION or more people on the unemployment roles to do it?  There is a cascading 2nd tier of support: parts suppliers, dealers, steel, glass, plastics, tire, marketing, etc. companies, and then all the small businesses that support this 2nd tier.  Those businesses go bankrupt also?  I don't think small business owners get unemployment. 

These 2nd tier of companies are spread across the country.  Tax bases in small towns and large cities.  What then happens to these small towns and large cities when you destroy this income and/or sales tax base and then these people start getting foreclosure notices?  What happens when the towns and cities loose property taxes and further deterioration of property values.  These 2nd tier businesses also own or lease commercial property.  That next?  These are the towns and cities you live in. 

In addition to these numbers you have the old folks.  The pensioners, not just of the big three, but the pensioners of the 2nd tier of companies.  If these folks were lucky enough to have an IRA in addition to a pension, I'm sure it's took massive hits just like the rest of us.  So they loose their homes too?  IRA davestated, pension halved if they're lucky through that government pension insurance fund that is under funded now.  Who's going to pay for their health care? You? me? Our already overflowing emergency rooms of the local hospitals in our towns and cities?

I know the drum beat - bankruptcy - in a normal time - yes.  But even if the big 3 goes into bankrupty - what happens to the 2nd tier - bankrupty for them also?  Pensioners?  Health case costs? These are not normal times. 

If the GOP in the Senate is willing to take this gamble, roll the dice - For ALL our sakes, I pray it's not snake eyes. 

For their sakes as well cause blame will cascade down on them and the GOP like a ton of bricks - how many years then would it take to come out of the wilderness?

I don't think people understand.  Ford has already said they can probably make it on their own but they would like some "back-up money" just in case.  There is talk about a merger between Chrysler and GM.  Now if that happened, yes many people would lose their jobs but it's not like EVERY employee is going to be laid off.  If those 2 companies don't merge then GM needs to bite the bullit and file bacnkrupsy and begin to reorganize AT THE COST OF THE INVESTOR.  Not on my dime!  And chrysler can burn for all I care.  Cerberus has overr $25 BILLION in assests, they shoudl be forced to dip into their own pockets.

While we are cutting pay for Union workers how about a pay cut for those two big unions in Washington? The Democratic and Republican parties? I am sure there are a lot of people out there that would do their jobs for less money and benefits?

Maybe even show up for votes more often? Or do something that benefits all Americans? Not just their little power bases and lobbyists?

Hello Mr GOP Congress man? This is Bubba down here at the car factory. You know the one behind the Rocking Horse Tavern and Bowling Alley. I'm callin to ask you to block that bail out. Tell those folks up thar in De troit the need to earn less like us down here. Them bastards just be squandering that money anyway. Thank you fer listening to me and you remember to stop by for happy hour next time your down this way.

Just another reason to flush the Unions. All they want is their well-being and not the employees. Now, who is being unrealistic? Get rid of them. If the Big 3 can't cut the cord, then let them all sink.

Shut down the unions. They had thier day and have done what they could to destroy the compaines and cost us 3 times what a vehicle should cost.

The average Union Auto Worker is being paid 75 dollars per hour in salary and bennies.

The union mentality is on full display -  take a chance on making NO money, rather than giving up some to get more in line with reality. Earlier they basically said "we are willing to dig deep and put the job banks program on hold for a while if other Americans will subsidize our high wages". Earth to UAW, are you there?

The UAW must go away for the big 3 to get sympathy from the average American. I moved to business-friendly Virginia because tax and union heavy New York State had no jobs to offer.

Out of the 3 million jobs that are on the line if the auto industry goes into foreclosure, how many are Union jobs? I would like to think less than 1/2. I don't know I just try to listen and understand. So, if the negotiations failed, and the $14 billion gift is not given, because the Union won't budge, is that what our country was founded on? The few punish the many? Sometimes it looks that way, but we have ways of correcting that. I am certainly glad we put all the CEOs through all of this, just for the Union to say, sorry, you loose. Once again, this is not about the Union, it is about the industry. Cut the cord and let's move on.

I just wanted to post a letter I recived today by my Congressman Keith Ellison and my response. I have posted on these boards before my belief that the elected representatives of this country simply do not care what regular Americans think, and indeed consider us stupid and sheep. I include this letter and my response to support this case:

First the letter I recieved:

Dear Mr. Parker,

Thank you for contacting me regarding proposals to offer bridge loans to domestic automobile manufacturers. I appreciate hearing from you, and I am proud to represent you in the United States Congress.

I believe it would be irresponsible to do nothing as a cornerstone of the U.S. economy falls into bankruptcy.  One in every ten jobs in the nation is supported by the auto industry. The Economic Policy Institute estimates that the bankruptcy of just one of these automakers, and subsequent collapse of the American automotive industry, would result in three million jobs being lost in 2009 alone.

The House of Representatives passed H.R. 7321, the Auto Industry Financing and Restructuring Act, by a vote of 237-170, on December 10, 2008.  This bill provides up to $14 billion in "bridge loans" to domestic automobile manufacturers, with these initial funds expected to be tapped by General Motors and Chrysler. The legislation also directs the President to appoint a "Car Czar" to distribute and oversee spending of the funds allocated.  H.R. 7321 further requires the automakers to submit long-term restructuring plans to the federal government by March 31, 2009. Additionally, the federal government would receive non-voting stock in the companies receiving loans under the program, and those companies would be barred from paying dividends or large bonuses or from giving "golden parachutes" to their highest paid employees.

The auto industry is such a fundamental and integral part of the U.S. economy that if it fails, we risk losing one in every ten jobs in America. We not only risk losing our autoworkers jobs but we also risk the loss of the service stations and body shops, the tire distributors and car washes. A failure of the auto industry would ripple through Main Street to the hardware stores, the restaurants, hair salons, dry cleaners and grocery stores. If we are to rebuild our economy, and we must, then we simply cannot let such a vital industry fail.

As always, feel free to contact me on any issue that may concern you. Please sign up for our e-newsletter by visiting our website at

My response:

Dear Representative Ellison,

                I appreciate your response but 1) I was not writing about the auto bailout but the 700 billion dollar bank and insurance company bailout and 2) I find your response very patronizing, declaring subjective and theoretical arguments as fact. For example in your email you state:

                "irresponsible to do nothing as a cornerstone of the U.S. economy falls into bankruptcy"

                I do not believe I ever advocated 'doing nothing' not giving a 15 billion handout does not equate to 'doing nothing'. There is plenty other strategies we could employ without distributing money, so many options that I cannot begin to list them here.

                Neither is the U.s. auto industry the 'cornerstone of the U.S. economy' nor had it been for some time. This is antiquated thinking. Many other industries in America are just as important.

                "The Economic Policy Institute estimates"

                The Economic Policy institute is not an unbiased source of truth, as has been demonstrated on numerous occasions. Many other prominent economists disagree with this group, and this is the part of the email I felt most disingenuous. As a governmental leader you must realize that you cannot just accept at face value what a 'institute' or 'think tank' declares. It is widely known that many of these institutes and organizations are politically motivated and will and can find reasons to support about any legislation. This is basic beltway political maneuvering which of you should be well aware.

                "The House of Representatives passed H.R. 7321, the Auto Industry Financing and Restructuring Act, by a vote of 237-170, on December 10, 2008.  This bill provides up to $14 billion in "bridge loans" to domestic automobile manufacturers, with these initial funds expected to be tapped by General Motors and Chrysler. The legislation also directs the President to appoint a "Car Czar" to distribute and oversee spending of the funds allocated."

                You apparently have not seen the news in a few days.  This may not matter much. FYI...

                "We not only risk losing our autoworkers jobs but we also risk the loss of the service stations and body shops, the tire distributors and car washes."

                This is an asinine statement. Using this logic we should all be still driving horses and carriages as we wouldn't want to put all the blacksmiths, carriage houses, and teamsters out of business. The economy moves on and this competition and no regulation of these markets is a foundation of American capitalism.

                "One in every ten jobs in the nation is supported by the auto industry"

This is a red herring generalization. I could as equally say '10 out of 10 Americans are supported by the American farmer' or 10 out of 10 Americans s are supported by the trucking industry (unless the food is delivered to your grocery by horse drawn carriage).

                Not to mention that this implies a fundamental misunderstanding or worse, misdirection by you, on the nature of bankruptcy you well know that when a company declares bankruptcy (not chapter 13 anyway) you do not dismiss all your employees or stop making product. If these companies to not get a bailout, they will still continue in some form.

                Perhaps such buzzwords such as 'golden parachute' 'x million jobs lost' and 'loans' (I see you are careful to not admit these are not guaranteed loans) work with the majority of your constituents, but not here. Please realize not everyone who may email you is someone you can win over with talking points and propaganda. You would have been much more effective simply not responding to me. I would have probably still voted for you. Not now.

                Why? Simply this Mr. Ellison: the majority of your constituency does not support this measure, nor did they with the bank bailouts.

                I simply vote against people who do not represent their constituency, assume you will be ousted next election when these votes illustrate that you went against the will of the people and instead supported corporations, big industry and the lobbyists who are hard at work on this issue.

                With all due respect,

                -Nicholas Parker

I think it may be a matter of perspective from outside UAW. ($38/hr is $79,000/yr)

Dept of Labor stats:

Secondary School Teachers-$52,450

Librarians-$52,850

Registered Nurse-$62,480

Firefighter-$44,130

Police Officer-$50,670

Bailiff-$38,510

Post Office-$44,000

Meat Packers-$22,520

Fast Food-$16,860

From the higher end:

Pilots-$71,270

Veterinarians-$84,090

Industrial Engineers-$73,490

Mechanical Engineers-$75,130

And, if I'm reading the charts right, base pay in the military:

E-8 (Upper end sergeants and chiefs) with 20 years-$50,000

$79,000 would fall between O-4 and O-5 at 20 yrs. That's Commander/Major territory.

Let's try that again without the site hating me for being a newbie. 

Bureau of Labor Statistics (government), National Wage data for over 800 occupations.

If you're making triple that as a nurse, I would assume that's in NY city. What I'm trying to point out is that for most of the country as an average (which these stats are) people ask themselves why someone bolting something on a car is that many times better than me? I've worked my way up off the lines in a meatpacking plant into a management position and this is still more than double what I make. Meatpacking is hard work.

I'm not saying people in manual jobs don't deserve more money in comparison. I'm just saying that these wages are out of balance with the rest of the country. No matter how right they may seem, if they are that far out of balance they won't be sustainable and eventually your business model will collapse.