White House says it may step in to help automakers

It seems that people do not want to admit to, or see where the problem is.

The impasse is labor. The semi-skilled leaches the assemble cars, that are making more in wages then many professionals, are unwilling to take a pay-cut to save their jobs!

The rats are sinking the ship! Throw them over board! Close the plants, lock the UAW out and hire scabs to do the work. Pay them a fair wage and save the industry!

That is not the problem. Hourly rates at GM are now comparable to those making foreign cars here in the US. The difference is in the pensions. Especially the numbers of pensioners. However, those costs are already scheduled to be shifted to the unions. This is about Republican's seeing a chance to break the unions they so bitterly hate! If we lose GM & Chrysler then their shortsightedness will cost this country a great deal more then $15 billion!

How much are they being asked to cut back to? Is it enough to feed a family of four? Are the GM execs being required to cut back also? Check out the info below and tell me who the leeches are....

GM's top CEO received about $14 million dollars including salary, bonuses, restricted stock awards, payouts on long-term incentives and the value of options exercised during the year, which was strongly up from last year. The 1st Vice Chair received about $7.6 million in stocks and bonuses, also up from last year. Both received pay increases exceeding $6 million in the past 12 months. The lowest compensation for the top management team is the 4th Vice Chairman at around $4 million.

Executive pay was cut as GM went through multi-billion-dollar losses under immense market pressure several years ago, but after those cuts the members of GM's top brass are getting their old salaries back and it couldn't come at a worse time.

Now take a look at the union wage scale on the link below. It wouldn't let me paste it in. Is $19-$32/hr really that outragious? With today's prices feeding a family of four on $32/hr isn't exactly living in luxury.

web link copied from... http://www.norcalblogs.com/post_scripts/2008/11/gm_wages.html

maybe it is time to let these two go bankrupt or try to solve this on their own.

You, like most of the Republican children in Congress, are purposely ignoring expert testimony (you did watch the Congressional hearings, right? Oh, well there's something else you have in common with Republican (non)leaders) saying that if any of the big 3 go into chapter 11, they'll immediately liquidate.

It seems that people do not want to admit to, or see where the problem is.
The impasse is labor.

Yeah, you can tell by the fact that only Republicans want more union cuts. You can tell by the fact that the big 3 CEOs testified before Congress under oath that UAW wasn't the problem. You can tell by the fact that UAW has made so many cuts already that their workers are making roughly the same as non-union plants now.

No, the impasse is clearly Republicans that have no problem gifting $700 billion in unaccountable bailout funds to their rich conservative banker friends on Wall Street but when it comes time to loan $15 billion (1/46th the amount) to the blue collar, main street "real America", they tighten their sphincters and cry like babies while causing 3,000,000 more jobs to be lost and turning this recession into a depression.

After stunts like this, is it any wonder that Republicans were completely thrown out of office?

Great find Justme.  Although I understand your point, that fact is concessions have to be made.  There are people out there with a lot more education and skills that would die for these wages but in free market do not receive them.  If these UAW workers were not in a Union would they get those wages?  Very doubtful.  I don't think the Senate asking them to take the same wages as those in the Toyota and Honda plants is outrageous.    I live in Louisville which is surrounded by Ford, Toyota and Honda.  Trust me the Toyota and Honda employees make a very livable wage.  Executives should be making as much as they are but UAW can't use that as an excuse for what their employees make.  Executive pay is out of whack in every sector. 

The only questions I have is why didn't the goverment research and investigate this hard when it came to given to giving away money to the banking/financial sector.  It pisses me off especially when I see stuff like this ().

The Unions in this country have been a problem for a very long time.  I agree that wages need to be paid to feed families etc, but at the same time, if you aren't making enough money to feed a family then why start popping out kids?  Or enough that you can't afford to support?

When I see a UAW worker making 25.00 per hour, to sit in a chair and place a tire on a car, that to me is very disturbing. Not even mentioning the benefits package, pension ( which sucks to be honest), etc etc etc.

Yes, the white collar workers who make obscene salaries need to be dismissed and replaced with reasonable pay for their position.  But in truth, the salaries are not the issue. The compensation packages are the real problem, exceeding reasonable limits.

In closing consider this:  I see many of you complaining about today's cost of living and while I agree with you that it is high and artificially inflated, we also contribute to the debt coffers by continually living beyond our means in every respect. I live in the DC metro area and I am appalled at the amount of money parents spend just to keep their kids happy and trendy. The purchasing of the big SUV to maintain an image of a lifestyle, one that most of them really don't live.  Refinancing homes multiple times to pay off debt that is constantly building due to poor budgeting and irresponsible financing.

I could go on and on but it would be a waste of time.

My biggest concern is the result it will have of continuing to drop our standard of living. The more we push them out, the more it will drop. Unions set higher standards for the little guys. Right now they're getting stomped on and getting rid of the organization that actually stands up for them isn't going to help. Toyota and Hyundi are starting to drop their wages down to around $13/$15 hr. With the UAW being under fire, they're no longer worried about their employees organizing. That's not a living wage in the U.S. if you have a family to support.

I havn't found anything yet on what cuts the execs would be forced to take. They are way above the industry standard on salaries. I don't care who you are - no CEO is worth 14 million/year. I would not be at all surprised if the Republicans were okay with the execs keeping their pay levels while forcing the laborors to cut theirs.

Amen to that re the banking/financial bailout!! The same ....holes that are behind thousands losing their homes are now being given bonuses paid out of the taxes of their victims.

I see the GM execs as pretty much the same. They are grossly overpaid by industry standards, give themselves millions in raises while the company is going down, have run the company into the ground, and now the little guy gets it just like the bank victims have.

Paul William Tenny - 3,000,000 more jobs to be lost and turning this recession into a depression.

LOL.  That number is total employees including Mexicans, Canadians, Indonesians, Chinese, and South Americans.

Since when is it the Taxpayer's Responsibility to pay for the Restructuring of a Corporation that is a Management Function.  That is what the 14 Billion Pays for, the actual Bailout requested from Congress was $150 Billion USD.  Read the Bailout Bill and the violation of the Laws pertaining to the United States Treasury, specifically page 35.

Bottomline: A job with a competitive wage is better and saving your job than collecting unemployment which will run out after your company closes.  And these people asking for money don't give a f^&$% about what Party you belong to, just like the bum on street asking for handouts.

Did any of you read all the loopholes.  Stop trying to put emotional nonsense into something that was defective.

Page 1.

What other purposes?

To authorize financial assistance to eligible automobile
manufacturers, and for other purposes.

Does not indicate the role of the Corporate Board Members nor their Liabilties.
Nor does this mention why they are incapable of securing credit from other sources,
as in they have no credability.

Page 2.
1 SEC. 2. FINDINGS AND PURPOSES.
2 (a) FINDINGS.—The Congress finds the following:
3 (1) A combination of factors, including errors
4 in the business model of domestic automobile manu
5 facturers, and emergency economic circumstances,
6 has prevented the domestic automobile industry from
7 securing credit from other sources, and has led to
8 the possibility of the failure of the domestic auto
9 mobile industry, which failure would have a systemic
10 adverse effect on the economy.

Who pays for pays for my retirement and health care benefits.
Cause and effect they build crappy cars and now they are going to force us to buy them.

Lines 21(E) means that anyone can be eligligable including Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA
and any automobiles produced by automobile manufacturers in the US.

page 3
17 (D) safeguards the ability of the domestic
18 automobile industry to provide retirement and
19 health care benefits for the industry’s retirees
20 and their dependents; and
21 (E) stimulates manufacturing and sales of
22 automobiles produced by automobile manufac
23 turers in the United States.

Direct Violation of page 35.  financial viability.

page 4.
1 SEC. 3. PRESIDENTIAL DESIGNATION.
2 (a) DESIGNATION.—The President shall designate 1
3 or more officers from the Executive Branch having appro
4 priate expertise in such areas as economic stabilization,
5 financial aid to commerce and industry, financial restruc
6 turing, energy efficiency, and environmental protection
7 (who shall hereinafter in this Act be collectively referred
8 to as the ‘‘President’s designee’’) to carry out the purposes
9 of this Act, including the facilitation of restructuring nec
10 essary to achieve the long-term financial viability of do
11 mestic automobile manufacturers, who shall serve at the
12 pleasure of the President.

This is in contradiction to viability mentioned later page 35.

 page 7
1 (A) IN GENERAL.—Beginning on the date
2 of the enactment of this Act, the President’s
3 designee shall seek to facilitate agreement on
4 any restructuring plan to achieve and sustain
5 the long-term viability, international competi
6 tiveness, and energy efficiency of an eligible
7 automobile manufacturer, negotiated and
8 agreed to by representatives of interested par
9 ties (in this Act referred to as a ‘‘negotiated
10 plan’’) with respect to any eligible automobile
11 manufacturer.

This part excludes the US Citizens.  Meaning that the US Citizens
maybe excluded at the convience of this document as a "disinterested party".

page 7
12 (B) INTERESTED PARTIES.—For purposes
13 of this section, the term ‘‘interested party’’
14 shall be construed broadly so as to include all
15 persons who have a direct financial interest in
16 a particular automobile manufacturer, includ
17 ing—
18 (i) employees and retirees of the eligi
19 ble automobile manufacturer;
20 (ii) trade unions;
21 (iii) creditors;
22 (iv) suppliers;
23 (v) automobile dealers; and
24 (vi) shareholders.

How come they can charge more interest on their sales loans, example GMAC, with Monthly payments instead of semi annually.

page 13

9 (b) RATE OF INTEREST; TIMING OF PAYMENTS.—
10 (1) RATE OF INTEREST.—The annual rate of
11 interest for a loan under this Act shall be—
12 (A) 5 percent during the 5-year period be
13 ginning on the date on which the President’s
14 designee disburses the loan; and
15 (B) 9 percent after the end of the period
16 described in subparagraph (A).
17 (2) TIMING OF PAYMENTS.—Payments of inter
18 est on loans under this Act shall be made semiannu
19 ally.

We want total transparency.

22 (d) INFORMATION ACCESS

This section mentions the Presidental Designee, but does not mention "on behalf of the Citizens of the US".

page 17
7 SEC. 12. TAXPAYER PROTECTION.
9 (1) IN GENERAL.—The President’s designee
10 may not provide any loan under this Act, unless the
11 President’s designee, or such department or agency
12 as is designated for such purpose by the President,
13 receives from the eligible automobile manufacturer—

Does this mean that all previous bonus, incentives, executive compensation opportunities maybe recovered from them.
Since they drove their Corporation into the ground meaning that criteria and justification for earning these was inaccurate at the time.

page 22.
5 (B) a provision for the recovery by such
6 automobile manufacturer of any bonus or incen
7 tive compensation paid to a senior executive of
8 ficer based on statements of earnings, gains, or
9 other criteria that are later found to be materi
10 ally inaccurate;

Meaning that everyone except the 25 most compensated can receive all the bonuses or incentives like AIG (Millions).

page 22.
15 (D) a prohibition on such automobile man
16 ufacturer paying or accruing any bonus or in
17 centive compensation during the period that the
18 loan is outstanding to the 25 most highly-com
19 pensated employees; and

Meaning as per line 6 except....they can still own personal jets.

page 23
6 terest in such aircraft, except that such eligible auto
7 mobile manufacturer shall not be treated as being in
8 violation of this provision with respect to any air
9 craft or interest in any aircraft that was owned or
10 held by the manufacturer immediately before receiv
11 ing such assistance, as long as the recipient dem

Meaning that they still get a Golden Parachute Payment as an accured benefit.

page 24
1 (B) GOLDEN PARACHUTE PAYMENT.—The
2 term ‘‘golden parachute payment’’ means any
3 payment to a senior executive officer for depar
4 ture from a company for any reason, except for
5 payments for services performed or benefits ac
6 crued.

Does this mean that we the US Citizens (Taxpayers) are paying for another National City Lines Scandal, Buses instead of Rail Mass Transit.  And also the Cities and States
being force to buy surplus, that cannot be sold to anyone else.

page 29
8 SEC. 14. AUTOMOBILE MANUFACTURERS’ STUDY ON PO
9 TENTIAL MANUFACTURING OF TRANSIT VE
10 HICLES.
11 (a) IN GENERAL.—Each eligible automobile manu
12 facturer which receives financial assistance under this Act
13 shall conduct an analysis of potential uses of any excess
14 production capacity (especially those of former sport util
15 ity vehicle producers) to make vehicles for sale to public
16 transit agencies, including—

Contridiction again with page 35.  Viability.

page 32
16 SEC. 17. SUBMISSION OF PLAN TO CONGRESS BY THE
17 PRESIDENT’S DESIGNEE.
18 Upon submission of a report pursuant to section
19 16(b), the President’s designee shall provide to Congress
20 a plan that represents the judgement of the President’s
21 designee as to the steps necessary to achieve the long-term
22 viability, international competitiveness, and energy effi23
ciency of the eligible automobile manufacturer, consistent
24 with the factors set forth in section 6(b), including
25 through a negotiated plan, a plan to be implemented by

 page 33 Contridication of page 35. Bankruptcy,Chapter 11.

1 legislation, or a reorganization pursuant to chapter 11 of
2 title 11, United States Code.

Contridiction line 2 and 3 of page 35.  Contridiction of page 7.

23 (b) LIMITATION.—Except to provide bridge financing
24 or to implement a restructuring plan pursuant to this Act,
25 no funds from the United States Treasury may be used
Page 35
1 for the purpose of assisting an eligible automobile manu
2 facturer to achieve financial viability or otherwise to avoid
3 bankruptcy.

Be careful David, most folks here can't stand facts....they only want to point the finger instead of finding a good solution.   :D

Justme-517872 - My biggest concern is the result it will have of continuing to drop our standard of living. The more we push them out, the more it will drop. Unions set higher standards for the little guys. Right now they're getting stomped on and getting rid of the organization that actually stands up for them isn't going to help. Toyota and Hyundi are starting to drop their wages down to around $13/$15 hr. With the UAW being under fire, they're no longer worried about their employees organizing. That's not a living wage in the U.S. if you have a family to support.

They have negotiated and raised themselves into the Unemployment Line.

I wish I could get a paycheck for playing cards, having sex, and doing nothing in a closed factory, you know the one that was closed down when they used the 2002 and September 2008 US Bailout Money to "retool" by opening new factories/plants at Toluca, Mexico while closing down the US factories and plants.

Unlike the Jap companies that do something that they learned in US Business School, like reinvesting sales profits in the US, with no profits to Japan.  Example:  Honda USA sales profits used to open new Honda Plant December 2008.

Oh I love the truth....finally someone else who READS like I do.....wooohoooo!!  :D

UAW states " Bail Out is Not an Option."  "TO MERGE IS AN OPTION" Leave Wall Street and the Tax Payer OUT of the equation.

Mergers are an option that provides a lasting solution to the problem instead of a bail out band aid!

Where on earth were you people when the fat cats in Washington DC gave all that money to their fat cat friends on Wall Street with no strings attached?  OMG...THINK PEOPLE................

Do you people not realize that 3 million jobs are on the line if the Big 3 go bankrupt? Yes it's their fault, but we have an obligation as Americans to make sure our own selfishness doesn't get in the way of doing what is required to save our country from going into another depression.

This problem is much more complicated than just the salary the CEOs get. Think of the factory workers who earn barely enough to get by. Then you have the suppliers and their employees who would lose all of their business. All the dealerships would go under as well as their employees. Everyone in the country who owns a car manufactured by own of the Big 3 would be screwed if it broke down; there would be nobody to supply the auto shops with parts for your car. The list goes on and on.

If these companies go down in flames, so will America.

Very well said SW786...you are in tune

SW786

A restructuring while under bankruptcy protection will serve the greater purpose. And during this process jobs will be intact.

The UAW is whining because their Golden Calf has been placed in the stable.

However, like a true Democrat, let the government solve the problems.  So where do you think this money will come from?

American automakers shot themselves in the foot back in '77 and through their substandard products, over-priced cars they failed.  But isn't that part of the UAW's responsibility to ensure QUALITY?   The American automaker for 2 decades was not the best in the world, although they should be and now the price is being paid.

I called Mitch this a.m. and send an e-mail I agree with you profwork, this whole deal smells to high heavens.  I suspect and there are many of us starting a financial search of all of the Repubs especially those with foreign car companies in their state as to how much illigal money they got from Japan, Korea etc etc.

This has been about busting the union from the beginning and I highly criticize our Congress for not calling it what it was from the beginning.  This nicely nice stuff is not getting out problems solved.  We need to be more like the English Parliament who will call a spade a spade and not dress it up like something else. 

We need a march on Washington and this Congress has no business going home for any kind of holiday.  They need to stay in session until the new administration take over if necessary.  They are there to do the people's work not go home a eat their fat turkey and sit on their fat wallets. 

UAW, Teamster, Electrical worker, all Unions need to organize a march on DC it is time to show these pompous politician's who pays their salaries.  We need the 2 million workers who will be effected by this move to show their faces at the WH and the Capital Building and starting today start picketing their home offices and homes if necessary. 

Small business  hold on to your wallets because you are going to be hit and hit hard people who are not working do not spend money on resturants, car repairs, home repairs, clothes, hair does and hair cuts, movies, and  they only buy the food necessary to live. 

Depression here we come and the Republican's caused it again.  Bush is worse then Hoover, Hoover only ruined the economy, Bush has ruined the Country. 

Sally,

Respectfully this is not a Republican issue or any sort of GOP plan to kill the common man.  The UAW for DECADES has been known to demand higher wages for less work and then produce a substandard product.

NAFTA was signed by Clinton and supported by ALL the current members of the House Banking Committe and Senate Finance Committee and I do mean ALL.  Listening to the House testimony yesterday, the DEM and GOP all blamed the UAW for lack of effort and responsibility in proper wage and benefit management.

Actually, Obama is a bigger threat to small businesses than any GOP member anywhere in Government. Sorry I own a small construction company and I fall into that 250k category.

Point was hit home also yesterday, that if the Big 3 were granted this immediate money with no regulation, as initially proposed, that the Big 3 would not be forced to make any real changes and therefore be back in the House again begging for money in less than 1 year. However if the bailout was not granted and a Chapter 11 restructure was in place, then the Big 3 would be forced to re-negotiate contracts with the UAW, re-structure executive pensions to something of a more reasonable rate AND they would finally have to start producing vehicles that truly are friendly to fuel economy. ALL the members, including the DEMOCRAT Chairman and ranking members agreed.

But just like a typical Liberal Democrat, it's always someone else's fault instead of reviewing the facts and correct history of why we are where we are today.  If you take the time and read correct documented finance history, listen to the current testimony on Capitol Hill, you will quickly learn who is at fault.   It starts with the poor decisions of the executives of all Big 3, including the UAW. For not proceeding forward with proper vehicles as mandated by the Energy Department and successfully blocking MPG standards about 10 years ago.

Marketing the big SUV's to people who could not actually afford them, but somehow was able to receive financing for them.

These two above examples are only the start.

Point was made in testimony yesterday, that most of the members of both Finance/Banking committee's receive campaign contributions from all Big 3 and therefore contributed to the lack of proper enforcement of federal mandates since 1977.

Stop blaming Bush and the GOP for the poor management of companies. Blame the executives and the union leaders.

I understand your pain though, I'm in a business that lives and dies by the decisions of Wall Street and the Housing Market, but at the same time it's not our responsibility as a people  to constantly bailout companies that make poor decisions and largely due to greed.

By the way G Richard "jack" Wagoner donated 2300.00 dollars to the "Friends of Senator Carl Levin" fund.   in 2007.  The 2008 records have not been released yet.

Read the two bottom committees of Carl Levin: 

So once again, let's review who is at fault here. (pssst, hint: both sides! :D)

First, the Obese 3 stopped being American when the pushed thru lobbists for NAFTA, CAFTA, AFTA to get away from the UAW, for cheap labor.

Roscoe-665493I've been in GM Parts for 20 plus and first it was mostly "made in USA" then alot of stuff started to say "made in Canada", not so awful. But then its starts with "made in mexico", then "made in indonesia"...now the bulk of what I handle (and its conciderable) says, yep, you guessed it, "made in china".

This makes me sick to my stomach...

The people in charge of the corporations, the government, they could give a s&*T about our jobs, they're only concern is their bottom line, their pockets.

We're doomed
12 - Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:54 AM HST

The US quality will never compare to the japs.  And the japs follow the principles of the US Military.  YOU DON"T SCREW OVER THE WORKER.  In return they are expected to work at a higher standard.  The japs and koreans are the US Auto makers, US Parts Factories/Plants, US Supplier, hiring US Citizens (Not Mexicans, Canadians, Chinese) to assemble cars/trucks in the US (not Toluca, Mexico nor Ontario, Canada like GM, Ford, Chrysler as determined by Congressional Testimony).  "Congress wonders whether automakers will spend bailout money in U.S." as reported by MSN.

BurnInHellSorry but Japanese cars have been blowing away American made for years and years... how come the American companies cannot come up with any innovative designs or decent quality cars?  Check out how many recalls there are for serious defects between the Japanese and American car companies, you may be surprised.

And as far as "imports build factories here where the workers get paid Wal Mart wages" that would be a lie.  I should now since I worked for Honda several years ago and was paid quite well.  Not to mention Japanese workers rarely worry about being laid off (That is just Japanese culture... not to screw over the worker).

For those of you who want to know why Japanese cars are generally of better quality read on...

I know for a fact why Japanese cars have a better quality then American car companies.  I have worked in the auto industry for 10 years as a consultant to both American and Japanese auto makers.  I am sure there are several factors, but the number one reason why has to do with something known as "fault tolerance".  Every part of every car has to be within so many millimeters of the original design.  For American car companies the standard is 7mm.  Doesn't seem like much... the Japanese have a fault tolerance of 0.5mm.  In fact when they first built factories in the USA the went to the USA suppliers and asked for a fault tolerance of 0.5mm and were laughed at.  That's when the Japanese brought their suppliers from Japan to the USA and built smaller factories to supply the larger one, because the USA factories couldn't insure that their parts would meet the high standards required.

So I vote no for the bailout...
15.1 - Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:46 AM HST

With that said, Congressional Testimony, Plans with Bailout, Close 1/3 US Plants/Factories, Layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" "since they are no longer needed; while retaining Mexican, Canadian, Chinese Plants/Factories and "associated Work Force".  Especially the recently built (Using US Bailout Money 2002, Sept 2008 (25 Billion USD)) Plants and Factories at Toluca, Mexico.  SO HOW IS THIS SUPPOSED TO HELP THE US CITIZENS.  All of you angry Auto Workers, one need to get a grip on reality, organize, Storm the Frankenstein Castle - the Corporate Board Member Homes, and I do not mean burn in effigy either.  It is your jobs, they drove your company into being lower than a whale turd, don't make the rest of us, that have less, pay for them.

Well said....

More absolute facts ..... I love it!   Taking responsibility for your own actions is a real b*** isn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for helping my fellow American along with his/her family. But why should I keep helping the same people who constantly make the same mistakes, because they refuse to take corrective action?

I liked the way Jon Stewart said it

At least when we give them money, we get cars!

Robert Blevins, how is Obama kissing butt going to help?

From the way things look there are only going to be a big 2 by the time Obama takes office. Ford seems to think that'll be more than enough to take them all down.

Damn straight, the Big-O will take care of business. You repubs better get ready for the smack down.

Yes!!! 3,000,000 jobs lost and a recession turned into a depression, one last "scorched earth" act by Republicans who give $700 billion to Wall Street bankers and nothing to main street "real America"!!! Yes!!!

Get a grip on reality the 3 Million jobs included, Mexicans, Canadians, Indonesians, South Americans and Chinese.  Stop try to fear monger.  And all this is due to the mismangement not some crook, I mean Politician. 
Speaking of Politicians, if any of you are responsible for voting for these crooks that passed NAFTA, CAFTA, AFTA, then you voted to have all our jobs "OUTSOURCED".

Paul William Tenny

Yes!!! 3,000,000 jobs lost and a recession turned into a depression, one last "scorched earth" act by Republicans who give $700 billion to Wall Street bankers and nothing to main street "real America"!!! Yes!!!

Congress wonders whether automakers will spend bailout money in U.S.

The 700 Billion USD Bailout of the Financial Institutions was to enable a Loan like the one that GM, Chrysler are asking for.  However, since they are not credable the Financial Institutions will not Loan them any money.  Especially, after the Congressional Testimony, 20% of Budget is executive compensation opportunities.

$700 billion to Wall Street bankers and nothing to main street "real America

Specific Locations that Benefited from Bailouts for Electoral College Votes and payback for Campaign Contributions:

Wilmington, Del
where many of the nation's credit-card companies are headquartered

Charlotte, NC (Bank of Americia, Wachovia)
back-office jobs are located, each have about 15% of residents working in finance, real estate and insurance.

Sioux Falls, SD
back-office jobs are located, each have about 15% of residents working in finance, real estate and insurance.

1. Darien, Conn.(all Fairfield County)
Share population in finance and real estate: 27.23%
Nearest large city: New York
Population: 20,666
Median Household Income: $168,687

2. Bloomington, Ill.
Share population in finance and real estate: 26.31%
Nearest large city: Chicago
Population: 70,395
Median Household Income: $54,971

3. Hoboken, N.J.
Share population in finance and real estate: 23.33%
Nearest large city: New York
Population: 40,002
Median Household Income: $81,356

4. West Des Moines, Iowa
Share population in finance and real estate: 22.15%
Nearest large city: Des Moines
Population: 54,627
Median Household Income: $61,303

5. Garden City, N.Y.
Share population in finance and real estate: 20.22%
Nearest large city: New York
Population: 21,671
Median Household Income: $121,831

6. Summit, N.J. (also Summit, Chatham and Millburn)
Share population in finance and real estate: 19.74%
Nearest large city: New York
Population: 20,618
Median Household Income: $111,497

7. Westport, Conn.
Share population in finance and real estate: 19.39%
Nearest large city: New York
Population: 26,822
Median Household Income: $137,133

8. University Park, Texas
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.83%
Nearest large city: Dallas
Population: 24,582
Median Household Income: $110,976

9. Fruit Cove, Fla.
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.76%
Nearest large city: Jacksonville
Population: 27,773
Median Household Income: $100,479

10. Wethersfield, Conn.
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.73%
Nearest large city: Hartford
Population: 26,146
Median Household Income: $63,359

Mountain Brook, Ala.
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.66%
Nearest large city: Birmingham
Population: 20,654
Median Household Income: $115,148

Lake Forest, Ill.
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.60%
Nearest large city: Chicago
Population: 21,289
Median Household Income: $150,795

Urbandale, Iowa
Share population in finance and real estate: 18.52%
Nearest large city: Des Moines
Population: 36,427
Median Household Income: $68,825

Normal, Ill.
Share population in finance and real estate: 17.28%
Nearest large city: Chicago
Population: 50,687
Median Household Income: $45,641

West Hartford, Conn.
Share population in finance and real estate: 16.67 %
Nearest large city: Hartford
Population: 63,782
Median Household Income: $71,550

Newport Beach, Calif.
Share population in finance and real estate: 16.56%
Nearest large city: Los Angeles
Population: 73,542
Median Household Income: $97,593

Westchase, Fla.
Share population in finance and real estate: 16.45%
Nearest large city: Tampa
Population: 22,028
Median Household Income: $98,383

Rockville Centre, N.Y.
Share population in finance and real estate: 16.29%
Nearest large city: New York
Population: 24,109
Median Household Income: $94,498

Naples, Fla.
Share population in finance and real estate: 16.1%
Nearest large city: Fort Myers
Population: 22,439
Median Household Income: $75,200

Ridgewood, N.J.
Share population in finance and real estate: 15.94%
Nearest large city: New York
Population: 24,742
Median Household Income: $119,936

Don't worry the Pork and Earmarks from the 700 Billion USD Bailout of the Crooks will pay for those specific locations, not the rest of the United States "Main Street".  Funny how people think "Middle Class" is a median of $100,000 per year.
This proves what I said about our Future President and Vice Presidents rush to get the 700 USD Bailout passed without telling everyone about the ISDA, 60-100 Trillion USD, real price tag for the US Economic Crisis and that the ISDA triggered the Global Crisis, due to the usary interest on loans. Protected by Delaware Court of Chancery.

So we should bail out a mismanaged business with billions of taxpayer dollars because we're scared of the unemployment rate? What about all the small business that are going out of business? Should we bail them out too to avoid more people in the unemployment line? Big businesses shouldn't get a free ride just because they're high profile! If the employees were so scared of being fired, they would have told their union reps that they'll take a pay cut to keep their jobs. Besides, these people will not stay unemployed for long as they should have plenty of employable skills. If they don't, we have no business saving their asses anyway.

Under the Chapter 11 restructure, the Big 3 can axe the UAW altogether and the UAW knows this quite clearly and bring in "scab" workers.     The UAW is only perpetuating this since they refuse to take any responsibility.

How does it go?  The Union knows what's good for you, so vote Democrat.

Under Chapter 11 all these companies will be forced to liquidate. How does it go? Down the drain kid.

To a degree that is correct. But the UAW would still have a foot-hold for a new contract. Now with their refusal to give in on this latest deal, their chances are nil.

The wages at the UAW are not low by any standard anywhere.  They are average if not better in many cases.  28.00 per hour for what some of those guys/girls do for work is obscene, but on the other hand some actually earn their pay.

Had Detroit been competitive and able to meet the needs of the world demands and the engineering standards that have been expected, I dare say this situation would not be at hand.

The UAW for years has been   " gimme gimme gimme" and rarely using it's leverage to force the Big 3 to design vehicles that were engineered to compete with the foreign auto makers.

I bought what I NEEDED for my company, not what I wanted. That is the difference.   I have a 2004 f250 Superduty ( Diesel) for towing our heavy equipment.  F150 for tools and light loads and a 2007 Camry for after work.     

People who bought the escalades / excursions / hummers did so for the image. ( for the most part) "Hey look at me, I have money. Too bad I can't afford McDonald's".

Detroit knew this and pushed for the dollar, instead of investing in long term solutions as admitted by the Chrysler and GM.  Now they promise to invest properly if they get this money? 

The majority of America does not agree with bailing them out, according to polls. ( but we all know how polls can be)

Since it's Republicans holding this up, I guess you mean all Republicans need to get before they'll save 3,000,000 jobs is "a couple billion in earmarks and pork". Gee, I thought Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility, I guess not..

Paul William Tenny  You need to read the Bailout Bill.

Paul & Mike.    I suggest you both view the testimony these past 2 weeks and the comments of the Democrats in power before making such statements. 

Umm, view? I watched it all. Did you?

..didn't think so, and it's pretty obvious since you think these companies can enter bankruptcy and come out rosy on other side. The moody's expert they had up there the second time around quite clearly testified that if any of these companies enter chapter 11, they'll liquidate.

End of story.

Since when should a auto factory worker with little professional training make more than say, a school teacher with a degree, a highly trained telecommunications technician or a police officer risking his or her life?

Auto workers have a lot of training, for one, and they make about $28 an hour because their union negotiated for it. Free market..

Takes the training of a brain surgeon to operate a pneumatic screw driver.  Or come to the golf course and play a round of golf with me, "on the clock".

Paul William Tenny

Since when should a auto factory worker with little professional training make more than say, a school teacher with a degree, a highly trained telecommunications technician or a police officer risking his or her life?

Auto workers have a lot of training, 

Lifting the glass at the bar during lunch.   My bad that is before, during and after lunch.

they make about $28 an hour because their union negotiated for it

And justified their employer to outsource under NAFTA, CAFTA, AFTA.  In other words yes their union negotiated them into the UNEMPLOYMENT LINE.  As approved by the Shareholders for more profit.

Lifting the glass at the bar during lunch.   My bad that is before, during and after lunch.

Never worked in a union shop have you? If you had you'd know that the garbage about lazy union workers is a huge stinking load of crap. Without unions we'd never had OSHA, MSHA, a 40 hour work week, no child labor, safe working conditions and health care for millions of Americans.

Many Unions also force hourly employees to join as a condition of their employment. Such as the Local 25 in Washington DC.

Actually if you work in the hotel/rest industry in DC, you don't have a choice unless you are in management.

Now let's use the UAW for an example. If you want to work at one of the plants, which happen to be the best employer in your region. You will join the union as a condition of employment, if the job you seek is covered in their contract.

Well yeah. That's just terrible that they be forced to join an organization that will protect them and secure good wages and benefits for them to enjoy.

Ever here the saying "You get what you pay for?". My dad's shop found out the hard way what happens when you let in low-wage, non-union folks.

The auto workers do receive approx. $70+ an hour, if you include vacations, and other benefits.

They are some of the most overpaid people on the planet. That is to say if you consider their level of skill and their rate of productivity, they are leaches!

Are your voices just as loud concerning the bonuses for AIG execs?  The multimillion dollar salaries of the financial CEO's we are bailing out?  Did you support that 10 million dollar bonus for Merril Lynch's CEO?  Or is it just unionized labor that gets you upset?

And then there is completely ignoring the aprox $250/month the workers are paying out in union dues which helps cover the pension and healthcare that they get for retirement. And I'm sure the over $6 million in raises the top CEO and 1st Vice Chair gave themselves in the past 12 months made no difference.

Those guys aren't taking home $75/hr. If you're gonna claim facts at least get them right.

Debunking month-old lies:

The New York Times told readers that GM's autoworkers are paid $70 an hour (including health care and pension). This is not true. The base pay is about $28 an hour. If health care cost per worker average $12,000 per year, that adds in another $6 an hour. If the pension payment takes up 25 percent of base pay (an extremely high pension), that gets you another $7 an hour, bringing the total to $41 an hour. That's decent pay, but still a long way from $70 an hour.

How does the NYT get from $41 to $70? Well the trick is to add in GM's legacy costs, the pension and health care costs for retired workers. These legacy costs are a serious expense for GM, but this is not money being paid to current workers. The person on the line in 2008 is not benefiting from these legacy costs.

 If you're gonna claim facts at least get them right.

I found Ironic because..........

And then there is completely ignoring the aprox $250/month the workers are paying out in union dues which helps cover the pension and healthcare that they get for retirement.

Is this how much you are paying?  My dad is a UAW member and told me his dues a month were equal to 3 hours pay per month. So, I would not call your statement fact either ;-/

Frog Prince, Since you have done your research than you must know that $70 per hour figure includes Heath Care insurancee for retired workers as well as additional benefits thrown into the mix before division.

Thank you Paul William Tenny^.

The base pay is about $28 an hour. If health care cost per worker average $12,000 per year, that adds in another $6 an hour. If the pension payment takes up 25 percent of base pay (an extremely high pension), that gets you another $7 an hour, bringing the total to $41 an hour. That's decent pay, but still a long way from $70 an hour.

Agreed.  Now could you tell me how many other industries in the US have a base pay of $28 an hour for blue collar/unskilled work?

You got me on the union dues.... from the UAW web site.... "UAW members pay monthly dues equal to two hours pay or, for salaried workers, 1.15% of their monthly salary. Public employees who are prohibited by law from striking are not required to pay into the UAW Strike Fund, so they could pay proportionally lower dues. In restructuring the UAW's dues program, the delegates had two basic objectives."  Went to a better source this time.

Is $28/hr for blue collar work such a bad thing? At that rate, with a couple of kids, the wife would most likely still have to work. We need more jobs that pay decently - not less. Why are the little guys getting crucified while the execs who mismanaged the company are walking away with millions?

Rixar13 First point is the auto-workers do not earn $70 dollars per hour

YOU ARE CORRECT IT COSTS THE EMPLOYER 73 dollars per hour.

Paul William Tenny

bringing the total to $41 an hour.

I am an accomplished software developer, and I'd gladly work for $20/hour with no benefits. It galls me to see these grease monkeys being pampered by automobile industry execs who scurry about in their corporate jets.

If @!$%#ing Detroit needs loans, make them do what everyone else has to: shop for loans in private-sector banks. No "car czar" - let their managers figure out how to reorganize and turn a profit. Maybe then they'll build cars that don't suck.

No government loans. No government bailouts.

Party: Quite a few Crystal, in construction and building for trades that figure is actually pretty low. They do operate machinery too. 

Show me the satistics on a laborer in the construction industry that makes that much an hour.  You should compare a laborer, not a crane operator, to a line worker.  So forgive me if I don't buy your quite a few.

  Actually my dad wanted me to know exactly how much he maked, he was trying to get me to stay in MI and take a job at his plant.  Salaried is a percentage of your pay for dues, hourly is equal to 2-3 hours of pay per month.  So, if paying to $240 a month you are either high salary or a very highly paid hourly worker ;-)

Is $28/hr for blue collar work such a bad thing? At that rate, with a couple of kids, the wife would most likely still have to work. We need more jobs that pay decently - not less. Why are the little guys getting crucified while the execs who mismanaged the company are walking away with millions?

Getting paid $28 an hour isn't bad....unless your company cannot afford it, which obviously these companies cannot.  If someone's wife HAS to work when they making $28 an hour, perhaps they need to cut back on spending or need to move.  For crying out loud my husband makes less than that, I stay home, we have 4 kids, and have a comfortable life.  Heck, I stayed home even when we were dirt poor and still had the necessities.  Perhaps your idea of decent is a little higher than others.  If you think we need more jobs that pay better, I'll wait and listen to your plea for Fast Food workers to make that much an hour.  Wait, then we'd all have to make $50 an hour to afford those burgers. 

 Now could you tell me how many other industries in the US have a base pay of $28 an hour for blue collar/unskilled work?

Blue collar, yes, but unskilled? What a load! Autoworkers work hard and earn that $28 per hour and that's still not enough to provide for more then basics. It's certainly not enough to provide for college for their children like the children of the rich are guaranteed. Why shouldn't they get the money? It's a descent wage, but certainly not too much!

R: Please tell me what is skilled about putting a couple of nuts on a couple of bolts, because that is what I am talking about.  I worked at a GM plant for a summer after I graduated, so you can't pull the wool over my eyes.  $28 an hour doesn't cover basics!  What in the world are your basics? Give me a break.  Then it all comes down to the cherry on top:

It's certainly not enough to provide for college for their children like the children of the rich are guaranteed.

A job that requires only a high school education should be able to afford you a living comparable to the rich, really?  Sounds like class envy to me.  I like my middle class living.

Addressing multiple people here..

YOU ARE CORRECT IT COSTS THE EMPLOYER 73 dollars per hour.

No, it's $28. That's an inarguable fact which means you're just running around lying here, and I don't appreciate it. If you can't argue your points of view without lying, then give up or start over.

I am an accomplished software developer, and I'd gladly work for $20/hour with no benefits. It galls me to see these grease monkeys being pampered by automobile industry execs who scurry about in their corporate jets.

I haven't addressed this because it's ancillary to the argument and hence digressive, but since you brought it up, I actually agree. $28/hour is good money compared to what most people make, but that's not really the point here. Republicans are saying that these companies are failing because of the union, so we test that theory. The average UAW worker makes $28/hour which is something like $2/hour less than what non-union workers make at Toyota's domestic plant, and those foreign companies aren't failing like ours are.

That means it's not the unions, and for the argument's sake, that's all that matters right now.

It always has been and remains a dishonest, anti-union ideological argument from Republicans that hate unions by default. This is the Republican party continuing to play political games with our lives and it is irresponsible, reprehensible actions like this that cost the GOP power in 2006 and again in 2008.

If they don't grow up, it ain't gonna get any better in 2010 or 2012 for them.

Crystal are you honestly a union man's daughter? To say the workers are unskilled shows a bit of a knowledge gap but of course that's just my opinion. My dad had to continually take training throughout his 32 years.

It also depends on where you live as far as how well you can live on $28/hr. I live well. My brother could live like a king where he is for that much.

Blaming the union is completely ignoring the fact that the cars they've been turning out have earned their reputation, the processes, logistics, etc are completely inefficient, the big difference between what GM execs get paid vs the industry standard, their lower quality standards (ex, margin of error) etc etc.

Well duh yeah we need more blue collar jobs that pay decently. And the fast food comment doesn't even need responding to other than wondering who is averaging $50/hr?

A job that requires only a high school education should be able to afford you a living comparable to the rich, really?  Sounds like class envy to me.  I like my middle class living.

I don't know where you live, but $28 an hour won't buy you much these days. And yes, a job that only requires a high school diploma should provide people with the realistic chance to send their children to college. That's the American way! This is not a case of class envy. It's a case of class warfare and it's being perpetrated on the working class by the rich who control the republican party and the workers are losing. The GOP was more then happy to help bend the taxpayers over to give Wall Street and the investment banks a $700 billion screwing of us, but they simply don't give a damn about real working Americans. The bias against real working Americans by the GOP in favor of the already rich is nauseating!

Justme: Honestly!  My dad retired from GM Lake Orion, MI almost two years ago.  He dislikes the union for a variety of reasons.  Maybe the difintion of skill is the culprate?  I would say a skill would be marketable to more than one industry, like welding, maintenance, etc.

Of course cost of living is a factor on how far $28 will go.  However, for the large majority of the country it would go plenty far.  Perhaps, if you can barely afford the basics you should be looking at moving to an area that better enables you a better living with less money (a decision).

The union is only one diminsion to the many layers that comprise the big 3's problems.  Image is probably the least, the union-related costs, the economy has comprised the perfect storm.

My fast food comment is to point out that the UAW auto workers seem to have a superiority complex.....thinking they are entitled to afford a better cost of living simply because they are union and manufacture a product that is a luxury to some, necessity for others.  Sorry, but rocket science it is not.  I'd be more interested in helping out those who really can barely afford necessities.

Crystal are you honestly a union man's daughter? To say the workers are unskilled shows a bit of a knowledge gap but of course that's just my opinion. My dad had to continually take training throughout his 32 years.

If she is she basically just called her dad an unskilled overpaid moron who doesn't deserve his wages and benefits. Though I'm sure then when she was growing up and needed braces or glasses or any kind of medical care at all, she's mad that her father got her help because he's in a union and she's willing to pay back all of the money spent on her because of it. And I'm sure she'll be happy to give back the food, clothing, housing and Christmas toys her father was able to provide for her from his overpaid unskilled job. Right? Either that or she just hates her dad and is venting.

r: As an Independant I think your idea of the American way is more of a Democrat ideal, everyone on equal footing.....problem is that calls for socialism....I tend to think we are overly socialistic as it is.  Your line of thinking basically devalues a college education.  Why lay out all the money for an education when you can get to the same place by staying out of school.  My kids will attend college and they will be helping pay for it, regardless of whether we can pay it in full.  I'm pretty sure the American way is pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, not expecting everything to be handed to you. 

Of course cost of living is a factor on how far $28 will go.  However, for the large majority of the country it would go plenty far.  Perhaps, if you can barely afford the basics you should be looking at moving to an area that better enables you a better living with less money (a decision).

Right. Move to somewhere that doesn't provide a $28 dollar an hour job, just so you can live in a place that doesn't require a $28 dollar an hour job to survive. This helps how? Hourly and salary pay follows the cost of living. That's why people who live in an area with a high cost of living make more money and those that live in an area with a low cost of living make less money. For instance a RN (like my wife) can make nearly $90,000 here in Los Angeles, but the cost of living here is very high, so that's just provides an OK living (I'm semi-retired because of poor health). However we could move to Michigan (where I'm from) and buy a house for less then a third of what it costs us to rent an apartment here, but the pay would also be two thirds less, so we'd be no better off.

I'm pretty sure the American way is pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, not expecting everything to be handed to you. 

No. The American way is everyone helping everyone else up.

R: Actually me and my dad are quite close.  And I do not think he is a moron...he went to college and got a teaching degree....but GM paid better (how sick is that?)  He also thinks the pay was absolutely rediculous for the job being performed.  

R: Okay, i'll tell hubby to stop the extra schooling because the country will provide....when can expect my check from you for my family?  BTW, I'm from MI too...please stay in CA....MI is really a hole now, very depressing to visit.

So since he thought he was overpaid I'm sure he refused the extra money and benifits? Right? Or was he forced to work there and accept all of that dirty union money against his will?

Crystal - If the unions disappear the fast food jobs are going to feel it too. Already wages in the same (auto) industry with other companies are starting to drop because they realize so many are against the unions. When our "good" jobs end up paying $13/hr, the fast food jobs are going to drop too.

Besides, when I'm cruising down the highway with my baby in the back seat I feel a whole lot better knowing well-paid, trained workers put my car together and not a sullen, resentful fella who couldn't care less because he doesn't make squat anyhow.

Justme-517872

Besides, when I'm cruising down the highway with my baby in the back seat I feel a whole lot better knowing well-paid, trained workers put my car together and not a sullen, resentful fella who couldn't care less because he doesn't make squat anyhow.

Buy a Honda. I just sold my 1988 Accord. Twenty years of great driving with normal maintenance.

My dad was a union member because he HAD to be in order to work at the plant....do you want to talk UAW strong arm tactics now?

Justme:  The food service industry has been struggling for quite a while now, funny I haven't seen any concern or outrage about those companies having to file bankruptcy.  Most of you claim that you care about American workers, sadly it is only for "your kind" of American workers.  Food service industry can't make less, they already make minimum wage and we've got minimum wage raises on the horizon.

My dad was a union member because he HAD to be in order to work at the plant....do you want to talk UAW strong arm tactics now?

Oh yeah, I can really hear him every payday. "Oh please please please stop paying me such a good wage! It's embaressing me too much to get paid for being such an unskilled schlub! Oh and no, I really don't want those paid vacations or health care for my family! I don't deserve it!"

OK, so it's not against you ideals to accept union money and benefits all those years, but it is against them to allow anyone else to? I got mine and screw the rest? Real American there.

So you want the entire country to make minimum wage?  Is that the solution, if we want to compete with the sweat shops in china and those third world countries we need to pay our workers the same? really?

Party:  There you go again being classy and adding an intelligent arguement.....;-) 

Blearc: Nope, I just think there are other workers who could use help more than the auto union ones holding on to their precious contracts. Ajob paying less vs no job should be a no brainer....I'm not sure how the union cannot figure that one out.  Their stubborn tactics didn't serve as well with the senators as it did those Big 3 exec's now did it?  They don't want to save their jobs, why should I?

Food service industry can't make less, they already make minimum wage and we've got minimum wage raises on the horizon.

And there certainly should be a major raise in the minimum wage. As for the fact that I support the unions means in your mind I don't support other workers is a ridiculous and baseless conclusion. The way to help all Americans is to put much more money into the hands of the working class. That's how you grow the economy. Not by giving more and more and more money to the already sickeningly rich and hoping they'll trickle down on you. And you sure as hell don't grow it by throwing a couple million more people out of work! I got news for you, what's trickling down onto the working class in this economy has nothing to do with money, it's the GOP lifting their legs on workers once again.

Rickace - I did. An Accord. At the same time my friend bought a Malibu w same size engine. A few years later she sold it when she got fed up with having to have odd things fixed on a regular basis. Going on 6 yrs and never any issues. If GM can ever match it I'll buy one for sure but until I'm going with quality.

Partysover - Where's your spirit for a good debate ;) It's no fun on here if everyone agrees.

Crystal - Can't say I blame them for not letting in "non-union". My dad's shop did and boy the customers are paying for it. I can promise the trucks leaving his shop are not as safe and reliable as they used to be.

Party: your comment makes me chuckle beings how a couple weeks ago you tried telling people there was only one set of bankruptcy rules, and claimed you are a registered mensa.  Would you like those quotes?

The difference is I don't try to act like I'm the smartest one on the thread, I just give my opinion.  I do not question intelligence simply because I disagree. Your "method" distracts from your legitmacy as one to gain insight from, like I've told you before.  So, go ahead and name call., just don't think it adds to your illusion of intelligence. 

Paul William Tenny, you didn't add in the vacation pay. That can range from two to five or more weeks per year.

Those of us who work on commission have already taken steep pay cuts. See how much sympathy the auto industry gets from the restaurant / food industry.

It has nothing to do with paycuts and everything to do with Republicans trying to bust a union that they've hated for generations. Most every Republican crying about this bailout serve in states that have foreign manufacturer plants which basically means Republicans are trying to punish American workers and factories to the benefit of foreign companies.

And to think, Republicans are always "country first" but it's nothing but an empty campaign slogan to them.

I hope because of your Anti American mentality the REAL AMERICAN AUTO MAKERS leave the US :
ToyotaUSA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA = US Parts + US Workers + US Factories = US Car.

GM, Ford, Chrysler = Mexican/Canadian/Chinese Parts + Mexican/Canadian/Chinese Workers + US Assembly (not manufacturing) + US Assemblers = Mexican/Canadian/Chinese car.  Example:  I buy a bicycle in a box from Walmart, parts made in China, I assemble the bicycle, does that make the bicycle Made In USA.

Paul William Tenny

It has nothing to do with paycuts and everything to do with Republicans trying to bust a union that they've hated for generations. Most every Republican crying about this bailout serve in states that have foreign manufacturer plants which basically means Republicans are trying to punish American workers and factories to the benefit of foreign companies.

And to think, Republicans are always "country first" but it's nothing but an empty campaign slogan to them.

#11.2 - Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:16 AM HST

You probably also think that everything that you buy at Walmart is American because Walmart is an American Corporation.

And to think, Republicans are always "country first" but it's nothing but an empty campaign slogan to them.

Actually the GOP's real slogan is "Country Club First".

"Whites Only Country Club First"

Why do we have to save Chrysler? Why is it all or nothing? Some companies fail  it's a free market chance. Ford might not need to access the loan - they flooded the market with the Mustang at an unbelievabley low price and will be replacing parts for the next thirty years. Chrysler has failed repeatedly and is jumping on this as the best thing that has happened to them in the last ten years. Companies that make bad decisions have a right to fail. Employees who work for failing companies run the risk of sharing in their company's failures. Do we bail out Starbucks? Why didn't we bailout Boston Market? Did anyone bailout the residents of P.A. when U.S. Steel was done strip mining their mountains, lowering their life expectancy and leaving their cities in poverty with a trained work force and no jobs? Johnstown is just now bouncing back after years of reinventing itself. How much money did we give them? 

The minute pay cuts were brought up, this bill was finished.

Which is precisely why Republicans tried to force it into the bill -- to kill it. The big 3 CEOs testified before Congress that UAW wasn't the problem, sagging sales due to the recession was. This is just another instance of Republicans putting ideology first, and country second.

The big 3 CEOs testified before Congress that UAW wasn't the problem, sagging sales due to the recession was.

Point?  The UAW WAS the problem when it came to the bail-out though.

Paul William Tenny  you keep saying Republican this and Republican that.  It does not matter what party they are you think that these Lawyers became Politicians for altrusitic reasons.  NO, money.

And if you want to bring that baloney into the picture, how about the two Lawyers who are paying back their clients for Campaign Contributions:

I posted this in August 2008, I already knew about the proposed September 2008 Bailout, before the 2008 Bailout of those on the list below:

Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.
 
Especially, ISDA. The People that brought you:  the 60 to 100 Trillion USD (it is not 700 Billion USD US Economic Crisis) Global Economic Crisis.  These people will be back for more just like GM, Chysler, September 2008, 25 Billion, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, to milk the cash cow.  updated add: AIG, Billions USD.  The 60 to 100 Trillion USD does not include the usary interest protected by the Delaware Court of Chancery.

International Swaps and Derratives Association Incorporated, isda.org
 
Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]

1. Delaware Corporate Notebook

2. Delaware General Fund, 2007, By Category

Before someone says Oh, but I contributed 2,000 USD.  Consider how much it costs to short term lease hundreds of campaign offices in each State.  Consider that campaign contributions from the above list is nearly a Billion Each (ok just short of a Billion).  This is the reason the BIPARTISAN Campaign Reform Act was not adhered to, no disclosure, no accountability to the public.  Now reported on CBS News 12112008.

You wanted to know who caused what, there are your FACTS, not Opinions.

@dayton:   FORD is not currently asking for money.

Umm, David, this is a seed for discussing the auto bailout, not the Wall Street bailout. I'm afraid you just wasted your time posting off-topic, irrelevant stuff that nobody cares about. Maybe you should try paying better attention..

I make as much as the union guys and believe me I'm no boss. The only people really getting fat off of the current situation are the execs. They're walking a way with millions the company obviously isn't earning.

As far as pricing due to wages... Until recently Toyota was staying within a few dollars of the big 3's wages and are still at the top of their game. Running a net price comparison between the Yaris ($17,150) and the Aveo ($17,835) isn't much of a difference.

. If you'd watched the original hearings with the auto execs you would have seen Chris Dodd, and other key Democrats, admit they had screwed up in writing the legislation like it was written.

Yeah, it was quite a sight to see adults (e.g. Democrats) admitting their own mistakes, something you'll never, ever see a Republican do.

I worked in IT for 20 years.  I saw it go from 35 hours a week plus full benefits, with double time for overtime, to 45 hours a week with compensation time if you were lucky.  Benefits became pay-your-own-way.  While my base pay did increase substantially during the 1990s, now, unless you have experience in the latest and greatest, or something cutting edge and obscure, your salary seems to be about right.  Which is a drop in average salary of about 20 thousand in the last 10 years. 

Perhaps if IT professionals had unionized they would be getting paid what they are worth.  Why should other workers be penalized because you entered a field with no unions and falling compensation?

So I'm looking up what a UAW worker makes monthly and I got to say, I'd be in like Flynn if I made that. There was a quoted hourly rate of $70 but I found an article that itemized that to be $40 cash, $15 for benefits, and the rest to the retirement portion of things.

..

That's the correct breakdown.

No, it's not even close. It's $28/hour with $13/hour in benefits for $41. The other $29 are benefits being paid to retired workers but attributed to the current workforce -- e.g. it's a scam number.

This was debunked over a month ago but like most people on the Internet, it's more fun to repeat lies and distortions than expend actual effort to educate yourself.

PWT, I'm not trying to repeat lies or anything, I'm just trying to find the truth.  I'm not trying to scam anybody or anything.  That's just what I found.  Upon further investigation I found otherwise: at the UAW.org website.  As quoted.

Q: Are UAW members really paid $73 an hour?
A: No. Wages for UAW members at Chrysler, Ford and GM range from about $14 an hour for newly hired workers to $28 an hour for assemblers to $33 for skilled trades workers.

Typical hourly wages at Honda, Nissan and Toyota are only slightly lower. Due to the effect of profit-sharing formulas, however, there have been some recent years in which a typical Toyota worker has taken home a larger annual paycheck than a typical GM worker.

The $73 an hour figure is outdated and inaccurate. It includes not only the costs of health care, pensions, and other compensation for current workers, but also the costs of the pensions and health care benefits of retired employees spread out over the active workers. Active workers never receive any of this compensation in any form, so it is not accurate to describe it as part of their "earnings."

And PWT, I apologize for getting it wrong, I'm only trying to educate myself.  So instead of being all nasty about it and thinking that I'm some Internet Asshat that just goes about spouting crap, please just ask.  I'm more than happy to find the truth out and humble enough to state when I'm wrong.  Also, I'm a huge fan of quoted sources, as I really dig getting the horse straight from the horse's mouth.  Also, upon further inspection I forgot to quote my original source.  I'm going to find that and see what the deal was with that. Take it easy.

horse straight from the horse's mouth.

I should just stop writing when I'm tired.

Well I'm sorry but I'm just not in the mood these days to cuddle people who run off things they don't know anything about. You got the number wrong, and I corrected you, and only *then* did you go out and look it up for yourself.

That's good, most people won't even do that, but it would be even better if you did the legwork for yourself *first* and then talked *second*.

I found a source that quoted it wrong, then I found a better source.  I definitely didn't just spout off, I don't know much about the UAW and I don't like making @!$%# up.  I'm not that imaginative.

My remark was to JustinPM. Seen above. It's really not all about you.

Not without some jailtime.  :-)  I'm a government worker.  And truth be told as that's actually my take home pay with my allowances, it doesn't cover my benefits.  I'm not one to complain, I was just stating the differences.  And upon further examination it's not that much of a difference in pay.

Why should tens of millions of taxpayers out of work pay for retention payouts for AIG executives or pheasant hunting retreats in England? 

Why should tens of millions of taxpayers out of work have to pay for the health and pension benefits of retired Presidents (after 4 or 8 years) or members of Congress (2 or 6 years )? 

Bailout everyone or no one at all remember the old motto "United we Stand" not what's in it for me only.

Since we already bailed out everyone (financial and insurance industries), is the auto industry  "no one at all"?

Again why should the tens of millions taxpayers out of work have to pay for the health and pension benefits of the auto industry ?

And so your answer is to throw another 3,000,000 taxpayers out of work? Genius..

lol then we can pay their health, food stamps, housing, etc.

I hate the greedy capitalistic bastards as much as the next. It is the best of the trickle down theory that Reagen and Bush try to promote, only it's not in a good way. I've asked it before, why are they still building cars when they can't sell what they have ? Why do you need car sales people ? Put a sticker on the car, bottom line and sell the damn cars. If they want government money then put them all under one name, and give all taxpayers a share. Greed, America is getting a taste of what it's like to live in a true Plutocracy, when it goes south, it collapses from the top.

Plutocracy is rule by the wealthy, or power provided by wealth.

Yes, and Chapter 11 is where they are headed. Call it whatever you wish.

For someone who apparently watched some of the hearings in Congress, I find it revealing that you continue to ignore the testimony from the economic expert that said -- repeatedly and sternly -- that any big 3 company that goes into Chapter 11 is going to be liquidated.

That's the only possible outcome of refusing to save 3,000,000 "real America" jobs, so we can save more bailout money for rich Wall Street bankers that Republicans love so dearly.

I hate the greedy capitalistic bastards as much as the next. It is the best of the trickle down theory that Reagen and Bush try to promote, only it's not in a good way. I've asked it before, why are they still building cars when they can't sell what they have ? Why do you need car sales people ? Put a sticker on the car, bottom line and sell the damn cars. If they want government money then put them all under one name, and give all taxpayers a share. Greed, America is getting a taste of what it's like to live in a true Plutocracy, when it goes south, it collapses from the top.

And you must think the Government can do a better job? They can't even balance their own checkbook and control spending. So what they hell makes you think they can manage our economy?

And you must think the Government can do a better job? They can't even balance their own checkbook and control spending. So what they hell makes you think they can manage our economy?

You're right about that. The republican controlled government of the last 8 years has sucked at economics. Time to give it to the Democrats.

There is a country called Canada you can move to if you like Socialism.  

However if you look at factual history, you will see there is equal blame on both sides for the past 16 years.

NAFTA, CAFTA, AFTA & "faulty" mortgage lending all started with Clinton's signature, then carried on through Bush.

Why move? America is and has been a socialist country almost since it's inception. Unless of course you're going to refuse your social security checks and medicare when you retire?

How about all the socialism the banks got, you know the money they had to get or else their was going to be marshal law?

Why move? America is and has been a socialist country almost since it's inception. Unless of course you're going to refuse your social security checks and medicare when you retire

No I have a nice retirement set up already from working my butt off honestly for a few years.  The only thing that could possibly slow me down would be Obama wanting to tax me excessively to pay for his programs.   Unfortunately as soon as my taxes go up to pay for his "change",  a few of my employees will be looking for a new job.....have to "balance the budget".  

The union can point fingers all they want.  They need to remember than when you point one at someone, you have 3 pointing back at yourself.  What is more important here having an intact contract? Or having a job, period.

I'm glad congress is going over this with a fine tooth comb, they should have done it with the financial bail-out.....maybe they learned their lesson?!?

As the article so vividly pointed out - the Execs said it's a deal, the UAW said, "No Deal!" Reminds me of a greed based game show on TV.

As the big 3 CEOs told Congress (under oath), UAW isn't the problem and UAW cuts won't help. The only people pushing this angle are union-busting Republicans in Washington who would rather imperil America's last significant manufacturing industry and 3,000,000 American jobs (that will almost certainly be outsourced) than give a $15 billion *loan* with *huge* strings attached, after giving out $700 billion to rich bankers on Wall Street with no conditions at all.

Blue collar average American worker and company: nothing.
Rich bankers: everything.

That's the Republican motto for the new year: Wall Street first, main street "real America" and country last.

Most workers know that jobs are scarce, no matter what field they are in.  Anyone who works in manufacturing knows this.  The total number of UAW workers has been dropping for the last 20 years. 

Would all your employees agree to a 40% cut in pay along with cuts to health and pension benefits?  

Would you agree to getting paid 40% less on a contract you negotiated with the buyer six months ago after you had completed half the job?  Or would you walk away?

Once it goes there, the company will liquidate and this will be over. It's stunning that you still don't grasp how bad things are.

They probably do know how bad it's going to get Paul, but like all right wingers they simply don't care as long as they get their cut of the pie and screw everyone else. The GOP tries to play it up as indepence from government, when the truth is it's every man for himself. Social evolution. Only the strongest Americans survive and to hell with your fellow citizen. They simply do not care.

Once it goes there, the company will liquidate and this will be over

Why?  Is the big 3 going to liquidate to give the country the finger for not loaning them money?  Please inform me.

Why? Is the big 3 going to liquidate to give the country the finger for not loaning them money? Please inform me.

Sales will plummet to zero because nobody will buy a car from a bankrupt manufacturer, and nobody will give these companies the financing they need to restructure for the same reason they can't get it right now: nobody will lend anybody else money.

Bankruptcy restructuring is not free, it takes a great deal of capital from outside lenders especially for companies this big. It has nothing to do with free will, if these companies go into Chapter 11, they are going to be liquidated by the courts and by their creditors.

Added to that is that the moment they go into Chapter 11 the first thing they'll do is freeze payments to their suppliers, who'll drop like flies, putting many people out of work and on unemployment and eventually government welfare.

Nobody is going to be buying their cars right now anyway....think recession. 

So, how long are you willing to fund these 2 (since right now Ford isn't wanting cash....yet)?  Until the recession is over?  A couple years beyond that, since it will take a while for the public to get comfy again? 

In the first place no one is talking about funding them. We'll be giving them loans, that will certainly be paid back, with interest. As for how long, until they have sufficient time to finish re-tooling into manufacturing the "green" cars everyone says they supposedly want. Though we went through this in the late 1970's and everyone savaged the big three for not making cars that Americans supposedly wanted, but at the same time Americans demanded huge gas guzzling SUV's and pick-up trucks. There often a vast gulf between what Americans say they want when answering a survey and what they actually buy when they hit the showroom floor and have to choose between a smaller gas sipper or a big shiny phallic symbol SUV or truck. It gets a little old for people to blame the automakers for supposedly making vehicles nobody wants, when they're the same vehicles most people were buying until the gas prices jumped. With the price for fuel settling back down you can rest assured that many American consumers appetites for monster gas guzzlers will return in force and the gas sippers will again be sitting on the back lots unsold. The American consumer's fickleness is at least partially to blame for the auto industry problems. It's certainly not the union autoworkers fault, so why throw them out of a job when they were just building what people wanted to buy?

The problem with what the consumer wants and what it can afford tends to be big.  I would love a hybrid/ electric/whatever to fit my family but I'm not paying over $35000 for a vehicle.  I have been waiting to see if Chevy can get the Volt to market.  By then I could drive a smaller vehicle.  So, we are going to loan to them for at least 2 years (length of time to retool) and then what, roll in the dividends?  I don't so much mind loaning them money, provided several factors are met.  I want a reasonable plan in place before they see a dime (courtesy of AIG), I want to see management and CEO pay cut down, UAW to give at least a little on their contracts (whether that be cutting down on workforce size, pay, benefits)...something to show these jobs are wanted and are not being used for extortion purposes and to show the employees are willing to work with the people providing the funding to save their jobs.  Frankly, I'm just tired of this whole notion of entitlement for lack of a better word.  Like I said before you either want a job or you don't. In general, anything is better than nothing.  Having to downsize your home, spending, or whatever is a lot better than living in a cardboard box, no?

R. Donald Snyder

We'll be giving them loans, that will certainly be paid back, with interest.

The federal government doesn't belong in the loan business. The automakers can go to the big banks and get their loans there like everyone else.

The American consumer's fickleness is at least partially to blame for the auto industry problems.

If the Big Three built cars that didn't suck they might get some more business from American consumers.

It's certainly not the union autoworkers fault, so why throw them out of a job when they were just building what people wanted to buy?

If their companies cannot generate enough income to pay them, that's the only alternative.

No government bailouts. No government loans.

The federal government doesn't belong in the loan business. The automakers can go to the big banks and get their loans there like everyone else.

We gave the bank through congress 300 bil so far, the fed has handed the banks trillions, nobody knows exactly how much because Paulson and Bernake will not be lawful and provide the oversight that is required by law.

Now I'm going to assume that you do not realize whats going on in the banking industry.  NO BANK IS LENDING, I've got clients with 800 credit scores and good income who cant get loans because every day the banks change the rules on us.  The banks created this financial mess and they are not doing anything about fixing it. 

 Business with good credit standing for decades are getting their line of credit slashed.  Now I will be the first to say that they shouldn't be relying on credit to meet expected costs, but its has been the excepted norm up until this point.  So since the banks operated outside of the law for so long we have to lose jobs even after we give them ungodly amounts of money?

We are talking about 15 bil to a group that employs millions versus 700 bil (not counting fed dollars) to dirty rotten whores who still are paying themselves billions in bonuses for failing.  I think the execs at the Big 3 should be fired but thats not the reality.

Now I'm going to assume that you do not realize whats going on in the banking industry.  NO BANK IS LENDING, I've got clients with 800 credit scores and good income who cant get loans because every day the banks change the rules on us.  The banks created this financial mess and they are not doing anything about fixing it

That's exactly right! The automakers here are no different then the foreign ones in that all of them are suffering because of Wall Street deregulation turning into corruption and ignorant greed. The only difference is that the foreign automakers are already being helped out financially by their governments and ours are not. Also the foreign manufacturers don't have to deal with rising health care costs because their governments provide the health care, not the companies. And We should be doing the same! To lay the total blame for this problem at the feet of the big three or the UAW shows an amazing ignorance of how this problem arose and what it'll take to fix it.

The companies that are owned by foreign interest send US dollars back to there own country not the US.  Wake up call is do for all the people we elect.

If that is true, why is it a good thing to eliminate US automakers?

Is getting rid of the UAW worth millions of unemployed people?

The exec. make most of their money on stock options....  There may be a layoff for some of the workers but the survival of the big 3 is at stake and there is nobody work giving 90% of their pay sitting on their butt.  Yes the American people will all have to pay but then again the quality of the foreign cars has always been better.  America has still got to do better.....  I own a chevy truck and not a foreign Car but that is my choice.  Bottom line fire some of the CEO's... and re do the contract to get rid of all the crap like the 90% pay for 3 years.

and re do the contract to get rid of all the crap like the 90% pay for 3 years.

The UAW has already agreed to dump that. It's no longer on the table.

Frog, just as I suspected, no factual dispute to my comment!  Prick!

hey said that the average american auto industry worker makes $79per hr.

Actually it's closer to $28/hour, $2 less than what non-union workers make at Toyota. There's a couple things we can learn from that.

1. It's not unions that are the problem since the foreign plants aren't this bad off (although they are all in trouble across the globe)
2. That even with a union, American workers are being paid less by American companies than foreign companies says a lot about just how badly we need unions in this country, and how pathetically cheap American companies are with their labor. If not for UAW, for all we know those people could be making even less, and they are already making less than under foreign companies.

What troubles me the most is that the republican senators that are blocking the bail out are willing to risk losing 3mil jobs over the next year and make the foreign carmaker's hold on the american auto industry that much stronger! 

If there is a chance to save jobs here in america, why not take it?  This just goes to show that their own interests out-weight those of the working class.  typical republican behavior.  i don't even know why i'm surprised!

Get a clue OBAMA-FAN, Paul William Tenny  this is what the Obese 3 have used previous Bailouts (1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2002, sept 2008) for:

1.  Obese 3 + Lobbists + Politicians = NAFTA, CAFTA, AFTA.  Result Cheap Labor.  Result Outsourcing to Mexico, Canada, China, South America.  Result no work for UAW.  Result former workers cannot afford what they previously assembled.

2.  Obese 3 + Lobbists + Politicians + DOT = Change of DOT Safety Standards to prevent foreign car invasion.  Result Japanese, Europeans build plants in US that conform or exceed DOT Safety Standards.  Obese 3 cannot import their own foreign made vehicles into the US because they adhere to the stricter International TUV Safety Standards (safer by survivability by category).  The Japanese, Europeans and other international markets require the stricter TUV Safety Standards that the "made in mexico/canada" US model Obese 3 cannot adhere to, therefore requiring special (tariffs) waivers, neither can they meet the fuel economy Standards required by the Greens Party (Internationally), resulting in the requirement of another special (tarrif) waiver.

3.  At the end of WWII, under the MacArthur Plan Japan was rebuilt after the numerous firebombings of civilian targets by B-29s using white phosphous incindiary bombs declared illegal by the Hague and Geneva Conventions as "Chemical Weapons" after Dresden.  The MacArthur Plan enabled the survivors to live and not die from starvation.  These survivors are now old, and in the positions of power as major CEOs of Japanese Corporations and are giving back to the US for saving their lives under the MacArthur Plan.  This is inspite of the large costs associated with investing in the US and using the profits to reinvest in Kentucky, Alabama, Tennesse, Missouri, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Virginia, Georgia, Indiana (2008), etc. that either are assembling cars or manufacturing parts in the USA employing American Citizens in the USA for their ("Foreign") Real American Auto Industry (Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA).  It is anticipated that the current "corporate samurai" will be replaced upon death with those that are similiar to the US Corporate Board Member Model, who have stated that it is their intent to close all US investments and reopen in China, due to the anti Asian sentiments in the US, as a matter of honor.  This is also the case with the Koreans at Alabama.  See movie, Graves of the Fireflies (Japan WWII), Tae Guk Gi (Korea War).
Note: we just bit the hand that was feeding us.  Foreign Investors.
This is just the tip of the ugly ice berg.

Here is an example:  http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=81&docid=50345 Another example was the one on MSN that was titled "Cars you cannot buy" that pertained to only Americans not being able to buy the cars available internationally everywhere, except the US.  And yes, lot of them were GM, Ford.

http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/Geneva2008/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6432301

Congress wonders whether automakers will spend bailout money in U.S. - MSN. Lawmakers in both parties want to ensure that the money lent to Detroit is spent only in the United States.
But since funds are fungible and the Big Three have plants in foreign countries, as well as foreign parts suppliers, it’s not clear how this requirement could be enforced. 

So David,

What is your solution?  let them fold?  let them go bankrupt?  What?  Only 1 sentence in this entire comment was your words, everything else was a copy and paste!

We know what the history of previous bail outs of the auto industry is.  Does that mean we do nothing, and let potentially 3mil americans lose their jobs? 

How about we help them contigent upon their business plan for the future, and require that the money is paid back once the companies become profitable again? 

Here's the reason right here!

Southern politicians have spent years luring foreign automakers to build cars in their states, with huge success. South Carolina has BMW. Mississippi recently landed a major plant for Toyota Motor Corp. Alabama boasts plants run by Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co.

The state of Alabama has been particularly generous in wooing auto companies. In 1993, it provided $258 million in incentives and tax breaks to land its first foreign automaker, Mercedes. The state has spent hundreds of millions since to attract the Honda, Hyundai and Toyota plants.

Lets not forget TN, KY, ect......

Am I the only one that see's a conflict of interest when the Senators from these states vote on a bill to help a competitor of their largest revenue making companies in their states?

WRONG AGAIN.  THESE SOUTHERN AND NORTHERN STATES BEGGED FOR US CORPORATIONS TO HELP WITH THEIR UNEMPLOYMENT AND WERE REFUSED.  SO AS A LAST RESORT UNDER AFTA, THEY ACCEPTED WITH MUCH HATRED THEIR ONLY ALTERNATIVE.  JAPS AND KOREANS.   With the State of Alabama, Montgomery, News Media calling the Koreans, "stink Kimchees".

OBAMA-FAN

Here's the reason right here!

Southern politicians have spent years luring foreign automakers to build cars in their states, with huge success. South Carolina has BMW. Mississippi recently landed a major plant for Toyota Motor Corp. Alabama boasts plants run by Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co.

The state of Alabama has been particularly generous in wooing auto companies. In 1993, it provided $258 million in incentives and tax breaks to land its first foreign automaker, Mercedes. The state has spent hundreds of millions since to attract the Honda, Hyundai and Toyota plants.

Lets not forget TN, KY, ect......

Am I the only one that see's a conflict of interest when the Senators from these states vote on a bill to help a competitor of their largest revenue making companies in their states?

What ever you say, david.

Am I the only one that see's a conflict of interest when the Senators from these states vote on a bill to help a competitor of their largest revenue making companies in their states?

You're not the only one. The Southern Republicans are wholly owned subsidiaries of foreign automakers. They might as well be getting their paychecks from Toyota and Honda directly.

The actual costs per union auto employee are about $78 per hour, the costs per non union auto employee are about $26 per hour.

Nope, it's $28 for wages and roughly $13 for benefits. The rest are what's being paid to retired workers but being added to active rosters to inflate the figure for political purposes, and you bought it.

Bluecollar, They built cars people wantedyears ago.  The problem is, they never changed with the times.  With everyone "Going Green", gas prices fluctuating, and ppl losing jobs, they no longer wanted those huge gas guzzling SUV's, and the american auto makers failed to anticipate that change and the companies and employees are in trouble as a result! 

Was that failure to anticipate before or after the product contract guarantees the UAW demanded and received? It's right on their website where they brag about tying the management's hands at switching products.

As a company that base's it's existence on anticipating it's market it is their responsibility to adjust their marketing and products accordingly.  it's really easy to blame the workers for the failure of the executives in charge of making decisions!

The cost of the bankruptcy is a point you raise very nicely, who's going to buy a bankrupt companies car? How much is unemployment going to cost on 1 or 3 mil workers?  This is not just an american problem, germany switzerland japan either have or are discussing bail out for there automakers.  The increase cost of police from the crime that will inevibitally come?  More money for the banks to bail them out from all those foreclosures.  At least this loan will be paid off, you think we'll get anything back from the banks?

Bush will ride in on his spray painted white horse and save the day, he thinks history will forgive his other acts with this one act.