Automakers grab loans, look to Obama White House

I totally agree on the idea of preserving our industrial base industry (like the auto industry) but the average pay for an assembly line worker including benefits for the US auto-maker is about $78.00 an hour !!  while the U.S. based Japanese assembly line worker including benefits makes about $48.00 an hour. 

The Union of the US auto-maker went beyond the protecting mode.   That is why the quality of US made car suffers because we have to cut "corners" in order to make a profit.  The drawback of making $48.00 an hour is that the assembly person may have to work a little more and a little harder for the money.  Are we prepare to do that ?  Seems like our nation is full of lazy people and the Union is there to protect them.

In short, laziness is a big price to pay in our modern society.

I am so sick of hearing this argument.  I believe that the members of UAW should make concessions, but to use, as part of the argument, that they make $78 an hour, or whatever figure you want to throw out, is unfair.

I make $ at my job, but if you want to lump my health benefits, vacation pay, etc into it I would be making close to $30/ hour, but how much can I actually put toward my house payment?  Should my income be based on the $30/hour or $21?  I think $21/hour is just fine for what I do, and I'm not looking for more (though I wouldn't refuse it if it came without asking  :D), but if someone were to come to me and say that what I do isn't worth $30/hour, and demand that I have my pay, and benefits cut, I would have a HUGE problem with that.

How much do you make per hour?  If you are salary, break it down to a 40 hour work week (even if you work more than that, this is only for comparative reasons).  Now, add all of your benefits to that hourly wage.  Now, do you think there could be someone out there who would think that your adjustedpay-rate is too high for what you do?  What would you say if they demanded that you cut your pay, so that the company could be more profitable, while those who have been making the decisions (CEO's, executive management), keep their salaries and bonuses. 

And, yes, I know that at least one of the Big 3 CEO's have offered to reduce their salary to $1, but they haven't said jack about refusing their multi-million dollar bonuses they get, that aren't even based on performance.

Bush would rather see our children and grandchildren fail, which is what is going to happen if we keep nationalizing everything.  Kind of ironic that he slams Huego for nationalizing his oil fields.

Good Greif. I know how you feel about giving up part of your wage, and noone is saying you're not worth what you make. But if the CEO of your  Co. came and said, (Everyone is going to have to take a cut in pay, for us to stay in business) What would you do?  I'm not talking about just the workers taking a cut. All the way up to the CEOs need to take cuts. They need to TOTALLY restructure their pay scale. Renegotiate their parts costs,  cut out ALL bonuses and redesign their cars to make them more economy friendly. Until they do all of those things, I wouldn't give them a penny. They PUT themselves where they are.

Getoutandstayout

Bush would rather see our children and grandchildren fail, which is what is going to happen if we keep nationalizing everything.

Bush? When he first heard about the crap sandwich he thought it was a bad idea.

It's the Democratic Congress that's voting to nationalize.

How much do you make per hour?  If you are salary, break it down to a 40 hour work week (even if you work more than that, this is only for comparative reasons).  Now, add all of your benefits to that hourly wage.  Now, do you think there could be someone out there who would think that your adjustedpay-rate is too high for what you do? 

I'm sick of that argument too.  But for a different reason.  It's not always as clear cut as you claim.  I did as you asked, and I make roughly $118/hr.  But I'm straight commission.  Does that mean I get to SUBTRACT my health insurance, supplies, cell phone bill, land line bill, DSL and travel expenses?  Or does it mean I'm part of the 'evil-rich' because I gross over $240,000 yearly? 

The bailout/loan is a farce, IMO.  The 'Big 3' have been given until March 31, 2009 to pay back the $17B.  There is absolutely no way they can restructure their business plans, restructure their companies, design and produce a product people want to buy and realize a big enough profit from that product to pay back the loans by then.

Had they gone the bankruptcy route, they would have bought themselves enough time to do all of the above and have protection from their creditors to boot.

pat n

 you are a idiot, i'm sure that you do just that when you do your taxs. take off all your subtract's health,supplies,cell, travel, if you don't you need new tax guy. and what the hell are you worry about what we get payed anyway 240 a year fine some thing else to worry about

pat n

 you are a idiot, i'm sure that you do just that when you do your taxs. take off all your subtract's health,supplies,cell, travel, if you don't you need new tax guy. and what the hell are you worry about what we get payed anyway 240 a year fine some thing else to worry about

MFK...feeling a little classs warfare?  'Good Greif' suggested that people here figure out their wages with bennies kicked in.  I merely pointed out that it doesn't always work that way.  My income at the end of it all...probably isn't that much different than most people here.  Considering I have a disability, I might even be making LESS, given my insurance premiums.

Also, I don't see how your post addresses the thread.  Your goal seems solely to bash an individual who you perceive as 'rich'.  You sir, are the idiot, as the point I was making sailed right over your head.

I'll put it in elementary language you can understand....

It doesn't matter what the union workers make because 3 months is not long enough for the Big 3 to restructure.  They will end up declaring bankruptcy anyway.

Get it now?  Or do I need to draw you and your ever so angry disposition a picture?

pat n

 your disability are my tax $ paying you? if so i want them back, how about that for addressing the thread? i pay upward of $100 a month for my free as you call it health care and that is not counting the pay for hbp meds i take, and live on $1800 a month, that not 240 a year go away . most people here get 240 a year they can go with ya. thanks for the rebut ,but i don't need anymore but like you!

your disability are my tax $ paying you? if so i want them back,

Wow.  You are one angry individual.  No...your tax dollars aren't going to me at all.  I take no disability whatsoever.  Incidentally, if you're a liberal, shouldn't you be thrilled to death with your tax dollars going to the disabled?

i pay upward of $100 a month

And I pay $830.  What's your point? And what does this have to do with bailing out the Big 3?

My point is, we are not doing any of the workers of the Big 3 any favors by providing this $17B short term loan.  In fact, long term...it's only going to create a larger welfare class. 

If you don't want to discuss the topic of the thread and you just want to be angry with my earnings on straight commission, take it to e mail.  Other's here shouldn't be exposed to your ugliness.  Your last post has been reported as 'no value'.

well

you are the one that brought up your disability and were crying about making less not me, ok now who is going to pay out all this welfare, you have no clue what would happen if they all 3 when out i don't one person here has spent a day in a auto workers place but they all them not to be payed for doing a job

you are the one that brought up your disability and were crying about making less not me,

Wrong.  Had you been paying attention, you would have noticed I was pointing out to another poster that not all of us get a salary and benefits.  For some of us, our earnings are directly tied to what we produce and we foot the bill for our own bennies.  I wasn't crying about anything.  In fact, I'm pretty proud of my income level.  That's another thing that comes with having your income tied to how hard you work.  A sense of accomplishment.

ok now who is going to pay out all this welfare, you have no clue what would happen if they all 3 when out i don't one person here has spent a day in a auto workers place but they all them not to be payed for doing a job

I seriously don't understand the above statement.  I'm not being sarcastic.  I'm truly not.  But the grammar is so convoluted, the comment is very difficult to understand.

I think what you're trying to say is that it's unfair to the auto worker if don't bailout the 'Big 3'.

If that's what you're saying, I disagree.

We are doing a greater disservice to the auto workers by giving their employers a $17B loan with an impossible to meet timeline for payback.  For starters, Chrysler alone is worth about $2B and has over $100B in debt to it's suppliers.  $17B will not pay for salaries, benefits, product development, R&D, etc.  And 90 days is not nearly long enough to allow for the strategic planning necessary for realignment of the company's business plan.

It is much better to the auto workers if the Big 3 declare bankruptcy.  They get protection from their creditors and have the time to build a viable business plan.  It's going to take time to design, fund and build a product Americans want to buy.  Under the current package, they will take the $17B and declare bankruptcy in 90 days anyway.

Then you, me, our kids and everyone else, including the auto workers, will be left holding the bag for the $17B the Big 3 owes us.

 let me say, convoluted you'll have to forgive I'm just a auto worker. is that to say that i don't make any sent? just give us time, with help this time we well get the big money takers out and well come back.

marry Christmas

Bush's weapons of mass destruction are in the US military and we haven't used any since 1945. I too support stopping the war and bringing the troops home, but I'm not naive enough to think we don't need a defense from other nations that do hate us, esp as world resources get tighter and tighter. Yes Bush's war in Iraq was the very height of ignorance, but being against the war does not mean being against defense and we need a strong industrial base to be able to defend ourselves. What happens if we get into another major shooting war? Are we going to beg Japan to sell us the trucks and machinery needed to fight and win it? A nation without a good strong industrial base is a nation exposed and weak.

Are you implying that the Big Three are going to employ our soldiers when they come home? If they are able to employ anyone, why are you unemployed? Even if the Big Three go under, The factories will still be there. If we need War Machines built, the factories can be fired up again. It is so simple! Let the Big Three go under, where they belong, Then some Billionaire can buy the Factory and start another Automobile, with more reasonable wages, Ins. Vacations and sick pay. Also lower priced economy cars, and still be waaaaaaaaaay ahead.

   I know what a World War is, My husband was in the last one.    Are you saying to get out of a Depression, we will have to pick a fight with three or more countries and go to World War Three to get out of the depression?   Actually, I was kind of hoping our Leaders had learned a little bit FROM history.  

PartysOver

I'm saying the closing the Big 3 will cause the depression

There will be a depression anyway. The suits and the workers at the Big Three just get to keep their jobs longer than the rest of us.

Have a nice Christmas.

Detroit certainly will.

You are absolutely correct.  There must be a complete overhaul of the internal structure of the US auto-industry and some sort of accountability before any loan or bail out money is given out.

And don't forget about helping Spain

"Just one week after receiving a pledge of $306 billion in support from US taxpayers, Citigroup announced the intended $10 billion acquisition of a debt-laden Spanish toll road group. Citi Infrastructure Partners will hand over $3.6 billion in cash and assume $6.3 billion in debt from Sacyr Vallehermoso, the parent company of the Intinere Infraestructuras toll road group."

Also the $500 Million dollar for the naming rights to that new sports field

Guess Spain and Sports owners need bailing out too. Our United States Senate thinks we can do just fine without a manufacturing base.

As to the auto bridge loan - Thank you George, you may have FINALLY gotten something right (maybe, will truly believe it when I actually see it)

so when our pay comes down you don't think your pay is next what is wrong with you stupid people

mfk. Like Pat N said, "Wow.  You are one angry individual."

i'll ask again what is wrong with you people? you don't think your next?

mfk. If I am it's not because I sat back and didn't learn anything new.

Also, look into using you're instead of your.

mfk. I suspect you're a UAW member. Yes, unions have done good things for this country, especially 40-80 years ago. Yes, it's kind of a shame that the world is much more open / flat  than it was years ago. Yes it stinks that we have to compete with Brazilian, Mexican, Malaysian, Japanese, European, Chinese and Korean workers.

These things are not going to change. Will your attitude? Go out and learn something new, like a new skill. You are competing with millions of people that will, and not @!$%# while they're doing it. They consider it a privilege to learn, work and move up.

These things are not going to change. Will your attitude? Go out and learn something new, like a new skill. You are competing with millions of people that will, and not @!$%# while they're doing it. They consider it a privilege to learn, work and move up

(applauding wildly!!!)  Excellent post.  It's a competitive market right now.  mfk owes it to himself and anyone who depends on him to prove that he's a valuable resource. 

What GM, Chrysler AND the UAW did to the auto worker is appalling.  But for the average auto worker to sit back and b*tch about it rather than view it as an opportunity...is even more appalling. 

Amen Pat!

again i will ask what do you people do for a living? me as a UAW member set here all day every day answer these post and I'm payed ever well for it. just thought I'd let ya all know AMEN TO ALL.

again i will ask what do you people do for a living? me as a UAW member set here all day every day answer these post and I'm payed ever well for it. just thought I'd let ya all know AMEN TO ALL.

I'm an Executive Recruiter.  I find people jobs.  I've placed a number of your coworkers in positions in the Wind Energy as well as the Transortation industry lately.  And I have a feeling that they are going to realize a greater sense of accomplishment, a more stable future, better job security and more career opportunities down the road than you will by sitting on Newsvine.

I have a feeling you would be the type of candidate that I wouldn't work with though.  No drive.  No committment.  Angry.  No sense of responsibility.  Incidentally...you wouldn't have had to ask what I do for a living if you had just clicked on my avatar.  Evidentally, you are to lazy to do even that much.  Surprising.  Especially since you consider Newsvine your new 'career'.

Should make an interesting resume for you though.  "10/2008 - Present:  Sitting on my arse, posting on a message board."  Good luck getting a job in the future.

Good post Pat. In your position, you get to help people come out of this mess OK if they have the right stuff, especially motivation.

People like mfk don't realize that they are part of what has turned the public against the UAW. If you want a public handout, you shouldn't reinforce the public's low opinion of you.

People like mfk don't realize that they are part of what has turned the public against the UAW. If you want a public handout, you shouldn't reinforce the public's low opinion of you.

You just hit the nail on the head.  It's hard to have compassion for anyone thats looking to you and me to support them when they refuse to do anything to help themselves.  They insist on biting the hand that feeds them, and then have the nerve to complain about the food.  That's the image the UAW has created for themselves.  mfk only reinforces that image.

I know this is just ancedotal and based on one person's experience..But I was recently working with a UAW candidate.  He was an assembly line worker.  Talk about drive.  This guy was upbeat, jumped through a million hoops to find a new job, even bought a new suit for interviewing.  Took my coaching for the interview process, followed up with prospective employers and we placed him last week (Christmas Eve) in the position of Director of Maintenance for a mid sized trucking company making 22% more than he did at his previous job.  We negotiated benefits to kick in from day one and the company is giving him a full relo package to move him to the Chicago area.  He's actually RELIEVED to remove himself from the UAW.

Excellent. That man deserves to prosper, and probably will (as do you with the important role you're playing).

all right pat

 i'm 60 have h/b/p only have one good eye and 4 disk pined together in my back. my pay is from 33 years of work that i'm sure came from the 33years of work. i put 2 sons thur school one is gone now sep10-2004 Iraq i've had what i will call my life, now i just have what i was told i'd have. sorry for the bad felling, today is a good day for me at less.

mfk. Sorry, that didn't make much sense dude, tell us more about yourself.

is that a hahaaaaaaaaaa you say

mfk. I think you're tweaking us, yes?   ::::::)

what i say is true you have reason not to belive me?

mfk...Yep.  It's kind of hard to believe coming from a guy who feigned outrage and claimed he wanted his tax dollars back when he found out I was disabled.

LetsComeTogether...Great minds think alike!  =)

you wanted your taxs back for the auto load i want mine back because no one asked me weather i wanted to give to you. great minds that think alike most of time are one sided.  tax$ have noting to do with me story or my life.

It all boils down to greed! because the banks were ran poorly ,... They were not ran poorly they new what they were doing,the top of the pyramid was making money, thats all that mattered... and because of this the auto industry which was run the same way (pyramid) has there hand out also. why ? how can this be ? well we will not hold them accountable thats why this has happened. we will not hold the banks , freedie ,fannie ,the car industry or others accountable. so its ((free)) money.

Amazing isn't it? The industry will go bankrupt, but how much money has to go down the drain before then?