Bailout offers brief reprieve for Big 3

The American people would love to buy a new automobile....but our corrupt corporate/government has bankrupted the American people....Hopefully at some point they will understand that it is the people who make a strong economy not exports or imports....not overseas jobs and domestic illegal workers....not monopolies....not fraud....In order to save our economy our corporate/government has to invest in us.... helping us build small businessess and assure that corporate employers pay living wages.......And the financial fraud has got to stop....our financial institutions have stolen our wealth while the government sat back and allowed it to happen.

Great point! Why was social security ripped as "failing" instead of the Govt. discussing a bailout of something really important? That's it, moan about senior citizens gettin' paid a meager sum (yet) all hell breaks loose when the wealthy corporate system screws up! So, there shouldn't be any problem funding a bailout in 2035 right?

Social Security was a creation of the government.  Anyone who has ever banked on Social Security as their retirement and not a supplement to their retirement is an idiot.  Too many people look at SS as their retirement.

 I think this country needs and overhaul. The way I see it if you bail out the american public of dept, then we have money to rebuy if you will the things like cars and homes. But if you talking about just bailing out certain business then how are thoes business going to stay in business when the american people have no money left to spend.???? I know we have the right to make our own mind about what we need and the things we want, but if we don't have the money to buy the things we need then there is know way that were going to buy the things that we want. So there goes the import business right there. AND IF WERE GOING TO FIX SOMETHING, WE NEED TO FIX IT FOR THE LONG HAUL OF OUR PEOPLE AND NOT JUST A QUICK FIX TO GET THINGS BACK ON TRACK, WE ARE TIRED OF HISTORY REPEATING IT'S SELF WHEN WE CAN MAKE THE FUTURE.

If your spelling or grammar is an example, I think we need to overhaul the education system.  However, that is a discussion for another time.

But, let me respond to your statements.  The American public is in debt because they overspend when they don't have money to begin with.  This is the negative aspect of giving credit to people who were poor credit risks.  The American public needs to learn to live within their means.  This goes for businesses, the government, those who have lost their wealth and those who never had it to begin with.  It means you and it means me as well.

Decisions were made to either let these entities collapse or save them at taxpayer expense. That includes AIG, Citi Bank, and the whole TARP program. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either want a GM, Ford, and Chrysler or you don't. If you do, that's the price that was paid. Does anyone believe that 17 billion saved them or just prolonged the end? Do you figure Obama, Pelosi, and Frank will just start pouring billions into them in March to save them? They'll kiss the UAW's butt to keep those votes coming. That's all it is. Election pay back. How much money do you believe the Democratic party paid for Al Gore's legal challenges in 2000. How much money was spent on Barack's campaign? One ex-CEO said it well "Tell me one thing the government can do better than private enterprise"? Maybe, spend money.      

Stan W. - Does anyone believe that 17 billion saved them or just prolonged the end? Do you figure Obama, Pelosi, and Frank will just start pouring billions into them in March to save them?

As stated in the article this 17.4 Billion USD is so that they have time to develope a Restructuring Plan due March 2009.

Congressional Testimony indicated that they will be asking for 150 Billion USD, about March 2009, to Implement the Restructuring Plan:

The proposed to Congress Restructuring Plan is to Close 1/3 US Plants/Factories, Layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" while retaining the Mexican/Canadian/Chinese Plants/Factories and associated "Work Force".

The problem to begin with has been ignored by most people. It is government trying to dictate to the American public what they should drive. We are supposed to have a free society in the USA, free to choose where we live and go. What the socialists in power would do is make everyone go back to the cities and suffer through the experience of mass transit, overcrowding, elevated crime, restricted travel etc.

What are the highest selling vehicles for the year so far? The Ford F-150 and the Chevrolet Silverado (1500). Why? Because people buy what they want or need, not what someone in the government says they need, or should buy. The much ballyhooed high mileage vehicles the government wants us to drive are too small for a good sized family, or one that has big children. They are also lacking in cargo space for luggage when you want to go on vacation.

Addressing the exporting of American jobs, the democrats are responsible. Pure plain and simple. With LBJ in 63-65 they rewrote the tax code allowing American companies to make goods outside the country then bring them back "duty free". This gave birth to the Canadian Auto Worker. With further trade agreements (NAFTA & GATT) which could have been defeated by the democrats we now have "global agreements" and a global economy. So now the government has to come along and shore up the auto companies in order for them to comply with their assine mandates and "exporting democracy", thereby insuring peace worldwide. Yes, you can laugh at that ending!

GW Bush just used Presidential powers that may or may not even exist to shovel taxpayer dollars to Detroit automakers as a first installment of a larger bailout. While this move temporarily reduces the unemployment figures that would show under HIS final watch as president, it will not prevent the inevitable... the need for corporate restructuring under Chapter 11 (bankruptcy) for GM and probably Chrysler. The thing is, we taxpayers will NEVER see a dime of that $15 billion again. It is gone... PUFF!

Yeah, I know GW put "conditions" on the money. LOL. That money is looted, gone, stolen, lost, er, missplaced. As for the CEOs who agreed to take a $1 salary?? Geesh people, they don't work for salary, they work for stock options and bonuses, which are classified different than salaries. Technically, that $15 billion can all go to them as some kind of bonus, which it probably will.

And before you go putting ALL the blame on GW, let me remind you that virtually every Congressional Democrat favors this mugging of the US taxpayer because it is a last ditched effort to support the UAW, a big donor of theirs.

Once Obama is in office (seems like a good guy, but he's a big union supporter and a Democrat), we'll see a continuance, and maybe an acceleration, of bailouts. America is over folks, stick a fork in us.

Larry, I could not agree more with your comment that BOTH labor and management needs to make concessions. All of these Blogs love to say the union workers, the union workers! It is a TEAM effort that will make ANY company succeed. One jamoke on another blog blasted that the Union workers wages and beni's only = 10% of the cost and Management was 20%. I doubt those %ages are correct. Pension obligations alone at GM are Billions a year for the union retirees. BILLIONS. Everyone needs a hair cut at all 3 companies. If they do that they will save Billions and hopefully make a profit in a couple years. Then as times stay good and workers/management prove they can build/dream up quality vehicles... The pay can go up as a reward. That is how most of us get paid. That industry should be no different. I am hopeful that GM will make it and praying for Chrysler. Happy Holidays!

Hey, Demitrix, I asume you put your money under your matress.  My retirement fund is in the toilet!  Social Security is about all that's left for a lot of people right now. Yeah, it wasn't supposed to be THE retirement income, but right now it is assuming tht role. 

I like the fact tht Gettlefinger is looking out for #1.  He gets a salary totally independant of the number of Union members, so he really doesn't care how many members are left after the smoke clears.  He says the management guys are in for a fight to get the union to concede what's needed to keep going.  That's tantamount to saying "I don't care about my members and their livelyhood, I've got my salary. I'll sacrifice ALL of my members jobs for a principle." 

Looks like Gettlefinger isn't really that much different than the rest of the big shots that have screwed up this economy!

OK, auto fire put out temporarily.

Now we need to fix the mortgage mess and stop all the
foreclosures on people who had a temporary hardship.

We can't rely on banks or mortgage companies to trickle
anything down so it needs to be WRITTEN INTO any more
money they get.  And make it count for initial funds too.

These greedy SOBs will suck every last penny from their
own mother and then wonder why there's no money left.

God have mercy on their souls... if they have one.

What "concessions" have the Unions made? All I hear is the Union head saying he shouldn't have to make concessions. Does anyone have any facts?

The "concessions" that I've read about don't really take effect until 2010 and had to do with lower wages only for new workers and benefit changes, like reducing the 2 years of 90% pay while being unemployed. The UAW leadership rejected the Senate plan because the UAW refused to move up their concessions to 2009. I expect that by 2010, the UAW will have killed off most of the sources of their golden contracts and they will be left with nothing but egg on their faces, while they are out looking for new jobs that they may qualify for at their local fast food establishment.

Well I have been in the automotive industry for 14 years. From the things I've learned in the last couple months and the things that I've been through either directly or indirectly. The ENTIRE country is in trouble. We're talking about the automotive industry, but that's just the start. As an example. When my ex-husband refinanced our house to take my name off of it his broker lied about what he made. Doubled his income to get him to qualify. My ex-husband was unaware of this. He was also in the auto industry, and he was laid off of his position. This has happened to millions of people. If the brokers in such a hurry to line their own pockets had told the truth then housing prices would not have sky rocketed to the prices they did and people wouldn't be losing their homes at the rate that they are. And we bailed out the banks first! WHAT IS THAT! None of these banks want to work with people to keep their homes because now they are fine. If they would have taken those billions of dollars and given that money to the American people that would definitely have stimulated the economy and would've cost the "government" and mostly the tax paying Americans a whole lot less. If brokers and banks would've done their jobs the way they were supposed to then we wouldn't be in a recession right now. And the foreclosure rate wouldn't be what it is. Then people would be able to apply for credit and be able to buy cars among other things. And the  BIG 3... Their labor rates work out to about $70 dollars an hour while Toyota and Honda work out to about $35 an hour when it comes to manufacturing cars. So yes that needs to change. But our Country needs an overhaul. But who's going to do it? The economy will come up but at what price? How many people will lose their jobs and their homes. I've been unemployed for 5 months. And haven't been able to find anything. Because of my 'auto only' back ground and I'm not the only one. To many people who don't 'GET' the regular American Joe (GOVERNMENT). People who want to LIVE not just SURVIVE. Something needs to be done...

Next will be the story about how the executives at Chrysler and GM received millioin dollar bonuses (paid for by American taxpayers) for their performance in 2008.

Then, there will be a series of outraged blogs.

Then, there will be billions more given to the next "needy" industry.

Then, more blogs.

Then, everyone in DC will get re-elected and will get raises.

Nothing new here.  I'm gettin' a little bored, frankly.

My image of the bailout is like putting a feeding tube in body that has a very low probability of full recovery.  The Feds authorized about $17 Billion to go down the feeding tube and it will only sustain the patient for 90 days then they will need another feeding.  

If the car guys can bring forward a business plan that addresses fuel economy, drops some redundant models (Chevy v/s GMC) (Chevy v/s Saturn) that would be a good start.  Certainly downsizing the list of perks in the executive suite is needed to show the "average Joe" that they have some empathy.  Finally, a look at the scale of the organization relative to the risk they want to continue to take given that now they are risking a lot of federal debt.  

Any change can't ignore the UAW and their need to back away from the gravy train that they have expected to last forever.  The American public is sick of the thought of paying for a car that is full of costs for people who don't work or who have retired and don't work but have lifetime medical.  The legacy costs just don't fit in the new model.  

If the auto industry and the UAW wants to regain consumer trust and gain some pride in owning an American auto product they need to show some pain for the gain.

There are pay cuts for the UAW domestic auto workers in the 2007 contract.  Seniority employees worked for GM before 401k plans were invented so their retirement should be paid.  Foreign transplant automakers haven't been in this country long enough to pay any benefits to any retirees.  What have they paid to any senior citizen in the USA?  Then there is the question of whether we should all be in Social Security and Medicare instead of any corporate help.  I can see by some of the posts that the Eastern Countries way of doing business is more popular (Communism) for letting the government handle a population's welfare and not any corporation.  If that is not true then some person should ask why Toyota USA doesn't pay any retiree health care or pensions instead of why GM Ford Chrysler do have pensions.

Ford was intelligent enough to pull out of the bailout because they understand the increasing disgust and contempt that American taxpayers have for these failed industries with their inept managment and greedy, over-paid unions. 

Ford understands that it is the American taxpayer who will have the final vote on this issue when they increasingly refuse to buy the over-priced and under-engineered products that the "Little Two"  at GM and Chrysler are producing.

Americans voting with their pocketbook will be the final nail in the coffin for the UAW and GM/Chrysler management.

Leo, be careful about putting too much stock in media "facts" on the bailout issue. The media outlets such as CNN are blatantly FOR taxpayer bailouts of the auto industry because of the fact that while the Big 3 are still in operations, $millions in ad dollars go to their networks or cable offices, and the bailout is fine with them, after all, it's the poor taxpayer schmoes footing the bill, indirectly paying for those expensive commercial spots. It's a conflict of interest that I'm surprised no one else has jumped on yet.

Leo, I have heard on business news stations like FOX and CNBC that Ford does not want the money NOW. They would like a 9 billion line of credit just in case. They played a very smart card by refi-ing it's debt and pulling new credit lines a couple years ago when GM and Ford both were healthier. That was a smart move. However, it is still BORROWED money. the day will come that it will be due. This was not from saving on running a good performing company. Ford is the most ahead one of the 3, followed by the way to large GM and then the "might as well call it quits" Chrysler.

Max, Ford rode a corporate jet to the same congressional meeting that GM and Chrysler did. They wanted money just the same, However, not needed by year end (2008) like GM and Chrysler. They did not like the fact that the money was going to have tougher (then they thought) conditions. They have 28 billion of BORROWED money in the bank, therefore  Ford has more time to pray that our economy improves and think smart on future vehicles before they will have a hand out also. Ford does not understand any more then GM and Chrysler. They can just wait longer cause they made a couple steps that gave them $ for time. All 3 need help. As does Toyota and Nissan (both lost money last quarter). None are perfect.

I like my Ford Ranger.  It wasn't overpriced or unerengineered, at least so far.  I don't know about GM, though.  Why are these people begging me to buy their cars then trying to stick me for a few extra grand to subsidize their inflated paychecks and retirement plans?  And the managers who have refused to develop sensible vehicles - why are they being paid so much.  I say screw all of them.  I will continue buying mazdas if I need a passenger car.  I like my Ranger, though...

I have a Ford.  I might buy another Ford!

Congrats to Ford for planning ahead! 

I'll never buy a Chrysler or GM product (never have in the past anyway).

Best to all!

I have a Ford Mustang GT Convertible that get's roughly 20 miles to the gallon if I keep my foot out of the slightly modified dyno tuned engine.  It's quicker than a stock GT, runs great and has cost me very little in maintenance.

Yes, the UAW leaders seem to believe that they should be immune from contributing anything to the recovery of these companies. That's exactly the kind of greed and arrogance that helped to get these companies into the position that they are now. Of course, management is also responsible, but it's no surprise that the UAW would rather help kill the source of their obscene wages and benefits, than to make some concessions to keep their jobs.

That was an amusing diatribe. Could you possibly have been any more inaccurate. I would label 

your argument as specious, but the incessant drivel doesn't deserve that description.  

   Obscene wages! Where do you work, Taco Bell? Enough of the incessant diatribe, and anachronistic stereotypes. Your specious argument has little if any merit, and doesn't even broach the major issues facing GM and Chrysler. Use some intellectual energy to examine the "nuts and bolts" of this industry, and how they relate to the current economic conditions. Post those observations and concerns, and perhaps a relevant discussion will ensue. 

Obscene wages! Where do you work, Taco Bell? Enough of the incessant diatribe, and anachronistic stereotypes. Your specious argument has little if any merit, and doesn't even broach the major issues facing GM and Chrysler. Use some intellectual energy to examine the "nuts and bolts" of this industry, and how they relate to the current economic conditions. Post those observations and concerns, and perhaps a relevant discussion will ensue. 

You guys keep saying the UAW like it's some foriegn entity.  The UAW is exactly what it stands for United Auto Workers. 

Second thing, I totally agree when union workers stand up to corporate America, and in this case, government trying to lower their wage.  When union workers take a stand, they stand up for the rights of all working people.  Even those who are not in unions. 

So if you think it's a good idea for the government to require that American people take home less money in an ailing economy (UAW members are Americans too), so that thier company can get a loan from the government, you really don't have a clue.  This is just the first step to all of us working for Walmart wages and benefits. 

james-780716, if Americans like yourself prefer to buy Toyota, Honda, Nissan... etc, why are you blaming the unions for this? The unions are concerned about fair livable pay for their workers not how the cars are designed, made, or whether they are fuel efficient or not. These are the concerns and responsibilities of the managers and the direction they agree to take in their meetings. If management can't change with the trend of the American buyer then it's the CEO and his/her managerial staff who are to blame.

What were their research, advertising arm doing? Didn't they conduct user research to find out what the consumer wanted? The workers aren't earning that much more than workers for foreign car makers. Stop blaming the workers. The fault is at the feet of those who are responsible for understanding the market trends and following them by telling the workers to change from one design to another. If management are telling the workers to make cars that aren't in demand, then it's the CEO and managements fault.

 I believe the Congress gets an automatic pay raise unless it is voted on to stop it.  Let's see these heroes jump up and show us who really is willing to share the hardships with the people they represent.

If the United Auto Workers were true Americans they would take the concessions to ensure all the so-called millions they claim would be out of work if the Big 3 fail.

If a UAW memeber is against giving any concessions it is obvious they ARE NOT the Americans or Patriots they pretend to be, since they will let the millions of American jobs they claim to support fail.

Vote-684690  -  The unions are concerned about fair livable pay for their workers not how the cars are designed, made, or whether they are fuel efficient or not.

 Guess you never heard about Work Rules at the Factories.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28300781/

“Work rule parity is very different between the UAW and the foreign automakers,” Bragman said. “Work rules govern how you make the cars, or who can touch what in the factory. There’s such a level of detail, and how a Japanese automaker makes cars is totally different to how a U.S. company makes cars. So there are a lot of difficult issues to be fixed very quickly. GM’s Rick Wagoner says they can fix them, but analysts are not so sure.”

What is not mentioned in the article as to the level of detail is also the determination as to how many workers per station, how many hours, breaks, start and stop times, etc..

James,

You really should learn what you are typing about before you start.

The UAW has been granting concessions in every contract since the 1980 agreement which started the give backs to the big 3. That's 8 contracts in a row we have given something up. In exchange for what? Some dunderhead to tell us we are overpaid and put out a lousy product? All I can say to your type of ignorance, and as far as it goes, to all of those who don't work for one of the big 3 and know what we deal with on a daily basis.....KMFA!

The UAW says that their members only make about 28.00$ per hour which is very compatible with what the Japanese pay in their american plants. What the UAW does'nt say is that along with their pay they have some of the best health care plans on the planet, access to free legal aid, the famous or should I say Infamous job bank so when they get laid off the big 3 picks up the balance of their unemployment so that they end up getting 90% of their normal pay for being laid off, then there is their paid time off including vacations, sick days,personal days,holidays, then of course there is their pension fund which is the envy of many, plus many more perks!

 Now I have no complaints with their pay rate, we all have to live, I also don't mind the health care, I feel sorry for those without it. But all of us would love the rest of the perks they enjoy but these cost money!! I pay for my own 401K at work no employer participation. So when they disagree with many here who think they make too much they should try to live like the rest of us. I don't want either the unions or the car companies to fail but they both need to be realistic.

James, and all the others, you're living in the stone age.  The "American" cars are just as good as the "foreign" cars, now. True, in the past, they weren't. Back in the 80s and early 90s.  Since then, the US automakers got the message and started getting with it on the quality issue.  I know they are just companies making money on giving out ratings, but guys like J.D. Power and Motor Trend have been giving the US cars top ratings for several years now. Long enough to now get accolades for long term quality and reliability, too.  Please give the US automakers a chance, and take a look at their vehicles the next time you're in the market. You will obviously be surprised. It's your money, so you'll buy what you think is the best bang for the buck, but give them all an even chance.

A quote I will never forget:

"US steel workers are the highest paid unemployed steel workers in the world."

What the UAW does'nt say is that along with their pay they have some of the best health care plans on the planet, access to free legal aid, the famous or should I say Infamous job bank so when they get laid off the big 3 picks up the balance of their unemployment so that they end up getting 90% of their normal pay for being laid off, then there is their paid time off including vacations, sick days,personal days,holidays, then of course there is their pension fund which is the envy of many, plus many more perks!

So, it's better to stop all these worker benefits before other workers want them...right? It is the top of odd to watch workers decide that other workers need to stop doing well instead of demanding that ALL workers be treated fairly. I can't believe we would belittle anyone that wants descent healtcare and descent pay. Don't we have a wonderful media?

Wake up people and realize this whole thing is about lowering workers expectations for a fair days wages while keeping the golden parachutes and outrageous bonuses.

Jim,

While I don't defend the executives and their excessive pay and benefits, the UAW people don't understand the consequences to our economy if everyone in this country received the same level of pay and benefits that they already receive.

If the employer cost for each employee tripled in order to provide those wages and benefits that the union advocates, then most employers would either cut staff, drastically raise the cost of their product or service, move offshore, or just go out of business. Meanwhile, the cost-of-living for the rest of the country will probably double, while unemployment skyrockets. The downward spiral into another great depression will be guaranteed.

This is just very basic economics, but the unions don't understand that concept and they have no interest in learning about the rubble of the other manufacturing industries that they've already killed with their excessive demands.

To all the union fan bois. Truth be told, I do not expect the incredible benefits that the UAW members get. I think they are foolish. I make more than the top union worker, but i still need to pay for healthcare, 401k, savings if I lose my job, etc. It means i make less money overall, just like the majority of America. You know what? I am fine with that. I would just like to see the price of a vehicle that will not last me more than ten years come down (seven if it is a Ford, or else they too would warranty for ten years).

As for concesions, the 2 years with 90% pay while laid off is outrageous. If GM can only sell 250k units in 2009 (25% of the market at 10 million expected vehicle sales) than how can they hope to make a profit while keeping all those people on the payroll that would work to have a capacity to make 50% more vehicles? That is like keeping 3 people on to do 2 peoples work. Just does not make sense to me, but i am open to hear how that will work.

And if Gm was not asking me for money, I could care less. Let the UAW get what it wants, let GM pay what it wants. Let all the unions in the world get great benefits for their workers. But they are asking me for money, so now I get to toss in my two cents. You don't want to hear about it from a non union guy, then tell your union not to let GM take the my money. I will gladly shut up.

And -- On top of all the benefits a UAW worker gets, they even get a "Discount" from the manufacturer for buying the cars they make!  The UAW says neener, neener, I get a discount buying a car, because I pushed a robots button to build it.

While I can appreciate the workers pride in their job, your companies have chosen to come to the American people for help in  the form of a bailout.  If your company were making it on it's own no one would say anything.  But your not, and you are asking us to pay the bills, we have the right to look at how your company is being run and make changes to make your companies more profitable and prevent this from happening again.  If you don't like the terms of the loan. then don't take the loan.  The UAW and auto companies are being given a chance to work with lower wages, which is better than no wage at all.  Most employees aren't given an opportunity to make these changes they are laid off and they don't receive 90% of their pay for two years, they receive unemployment which isn't anywhere near that.  That's what happened to my husband and he was laid off for six months at the beginning of this year.  His father has terminal cancer and we are his care givers.  We could have used that income to pay for medical equipment and meds needed that aren't covered by medicare.

You can either be grateful for this opportunity and do something to help resolve this mess or be like the rest of the U.S. workers whose companies lost money, be laid off to go home and receive unemployment.  But for you to sit there and whine about the fact that you may have to make concessions when others weren't given that opportunity is just plain rude.

Bill M NY & Texas Girl-well said. UAW guys keep telling us to stay out of their business, that we're just jealous of their wages and benefits.

I say, you made it our business when you ask all American taxpayers to help your company. And then you say no to any concessions...

A 20% wage rollback. Lets see, thats about 14.00 an hour. Leaving the average wage at 60.00 an hour. HMMM.

I have been a carpenter builder for close to 40 years. If you have any doubts about what I have to know to do my job, pick up a framing square and figure out how to lay out a circle. Not a joke. I am at the top of my game in knowledge, production and pay. I'm lucky to make 25.00 and hour. Out of which must come my health ins. retirement savings and all other expenses to supply the tools to do my job.

The UAW has been sucking thew double teeted money cow for as long as I can remember. I have a hard time drumming up sympathy for thier plight. I would kiss the ass of any contractor who would give me 80% of my pay to take a layoff. Not to mention production quotas that have people moving in next to slow motion while they meet what the rest of us do by 11am each day.

Sorry your wings are getting clipped. But welcome to the real world with the rest of us.

The average wage of a line worker at GM is 28.00 an hour. A 20% wage cut would bring their wages down to 22.40 an hour.

http://federalbureauofmiscellaneousinformation.com/2005-workers-gm-earned-average-hourly-wage-nearly-26-about-70-more-average-manufacturing-

This site's data is a little old, but I have a friend employed at GM and he makes 28.00 an hour.

So i guess then they will all just be unemployed.  Is that better?  If I was them, I'd slash wages to keep my job and if the automakers survive and make a profit, then they can go back fight for higher wages.

 Do politicians think we are niave or do they think we are stupid. 

Obviously they know for a fact we are both. No one is stopping them yet are they? Changing the names in the Congress did absolutely nothing did it? Yet we still harp on party lines like lemmings.

You think voting Obama in was the solution? See you are stupid since he pretty much agreed with everything Bush, McCain, and Pelosi have said and done since this whole farce began.

They are all the same and playing us one off the other. Naive? Stupid? Don't make me laugh. Now go glaze over while you watch TV so you know what to think tomorrow.

Your logic is flawed. The selling price of the car won't go down. They're losing money now, and they reduced their cost on product 395.00. If they drop the price of the car 395.00 they are uh, still losing money......

Ya being responsible and having savings/credit is a @!$%#.

Demitrix, you are an inconsiderate ass! Not everyone is a deadbeat. Some people just lost jobs they have had for years. Many more are being threatened with the same.

Not to mention that greener cars are what people want and the big 3 intentionally don't build them because of their collective mistress, the oil industry.

Everyone knows this, and yet, you sit there in judgement of all like a simpleton.

Jim,

Actually, I believe the Demitrix was referring to the big 3, not to those of us that are the victims of this mess.

JD Powers can be bought just like the baloney rollover tests of SUVs that Consumer Reports got nailed for.  If it is the Ford AG, then yes, I would have to agree, if it is Ford USA, aka FMC, nope.

Just so that you know why.  Quality = Fault Tolerance per W.E. Deming.

US Only Specification GM, Ford, Chrysler Fault Tolerance = .7mm

International Specification GM Opel, Ford AG, Daimler Chrysler AG, Mercedes Benz, BMW, VW, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai Fault Tolerance = .5mm, with goal of .4mm

The result: http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=81&docid=50345

My comment GM, Ford sell crap here in the US and the good stuff is sold everywhere except US.  I know first hand from when I took my US Specification Ford to Europe and had to get TUV Safety Waivers (Tarriffs), Fuel Economy Waivers (Tarriffs).  This is why it is not a matter of unfair import export tarriffs on US goods.  It is because the US Only Specification products cannot meet Safety nor 1970s US Oil Crisis Fuel Economy Standards.

I have to agree with your assessment of UAW.  Their salary, benefits, and retirement, have not adjusted to the reality of a competitive market.  The stubbornness (or greed) needs to be in check.  IF they produced a quality product at a competitive price then they would not be in the mess with which they find themselves and to the degree of seriousness that now exists.  Their failure is a vote by the American public.  We have voted for a better product at a better price.  It is a travesty to fund a failing company that would not have changed if the economy and the US public had not demanded it.  Giving them a loan is only prolonging the suffering of a company with poor standards and an overpaid employees that should have been euthanized a long time ago.  We need to put them out of their misery and let the company fail.  In essence we are placing the companies and their employees on federally funded welfare.

The Chevrolet Volt is AN ELECTRIC CAR with an onboard generator,not a hybrid.Chevrolet has a convential high mpg small car called the Cruze that will be released in 2010.The Chevrolet Malibu is available as a Hybrid.Ford's Fusion will have a Hybrid next year as well as the Fiesta which thanks to Draconian diesel regulations can't be brought over in it's most efficient form.Chrysler's small car programs (sharing platforms with Mitsubishi and Hyundai )got torpedoed by Mercedes .The technolgy hasn't been developed for the other cars you speak of.If TATA brings in a compressed air vehicle within 5 years I'll be ready to eat my words but don't get your hopes up.So what was that about having cars ready to roll off the assembly line?

Unfortunately, the manufactured oil shortage is over.  The idea of being green is no longer prevalent.  Look at how many Prius' now sit on the lot and how many people want their Escalade back.

With gas being $1.50 a gallon no one cares about mpg.  Sad but true.

Escalade has a hybrid version.  Check it out - you will be amazed

Either way you look at it Tim were the ones that will keep paying the bill. Hello its called taxes, and I think we should have a say so in where that money will go period. I rather spend money on a quality car now than buy something thats just going to keep eating at my pocket for the duration of owning the car. Money is what makes the world turn, not our environment; but if we dont take care of our environment then it will not take care of us. I say build better quality products(all products and if there is no need for them sorry there is no need to produce them) all around.

Word I just bought an Acura last week and love it :)

p.s. it was assembled in America

The manufactured gas crisis is the exact reason I will never buy another internal combustion vehicle ever. I will keep my used cars running until a real electric vehicle is offered in the US, and I don't mean just in CA.

I am more than tired of being manipulated by the petro-chemical industry. I am completely frustrated by the American Auto manufacturers who build cars in Europe that they cannot build here for some reason.

Did anyone notice that the lead female in the new James Bond movie is driving an electric car around in the movie? And, it has a FORD logo on it. so, why can't they just build them here. Or, better yet, just turn the damn boats in our direction every now and then? Oh yeah, I forgot, they need billions of our money to "retool" so they can build them here. Such bullcrap!

Truth be told, they cannot build them here because they are too small and do not meet safety standards. I ride a motorcycle and I have never thought to myself, I should stop and get a bigger vehicle because I am dead if i get hit by that Ford Excursion. Of course I am. So what. But my wife's soccer mom friends all drive SUV's because of 'safety' to tote around their single child. Thing is, they are not any safer these days because everyone has the same sized vehicle and I am just as dead in my small car than in a smaller european car.

I would love one of these lightwieght cars to use around town. I noticed while in Ireland my Jetta was a huge vehicle compared to most of the cars i saw there. Back in the USA, people made comments about it being too small to be safe. Can't say i see a reason for a SUV, my car has more trunk room than my old Ford Explorer and is more manuevarable too. Lets me stay out of accidents rather than survive them.

If you want me to give you a sarcastic answer, well, just look at who is the temporary Car Czar.  Paulson.

You know the guy that cannot regulate the Financial Institution Bailout Money.

When we look at the supply chain of the automotive industry, each of the suppliers (unless I'm mistaken) are non-unionized

Well, it obviously doesn't stop you from stating it as fact does it.

Great Recession?

demitrix -  Great Recession?

Read my snide comments (definitions) at the bottom of the message that I sent.

Really love your show.  I know I am a guy.  Still love your show.  Great job.
 
Just have to say this, with the current US Economic Situation.  Hopefully DOES NOT happen.
 
Rachel Ray: (Emphatically)  Whats for dinner tonight?
 
Rachel Ray: (Smiling) Depression Era Dog Food Stew.  MMMMMGood.
 
Rachel Ray:  (Cheerful) This will stretch that one can of Dog Food out to about one week.  Uh, huh, yes you can.
 
Rachel Ray:  (look of concern)  Is this safe to eat.  Oh yes it is.  The pet food laws passed during the Great Depression are more strict than food eaten by people....humans.  (cheerful) Well, hey, your grandparents ate it.
 
LOL.  I had to say this.  Considering we the US Citizens were lied to.  The losses were not 700 Billion USD.  It is more than 60 Trillion USD due to the ISDA. 
 
Ok, I know it is not funny, people losing their life savings.  It is just that I have to laugh at how stupid this is, me defending against enemies foreign and domestic, fighting these Corporate Wars for Natural Resources (Oil), and being called "U Stupid of America by foreigners that can see how stupid  (hyporcritical) all this is.
 
Depression and Recession Definitions:
 
Depression, those that caused the losses and economic crisis, "man up", and jump off the tops of buildings.  Therefore avoid being lynched, criminal prosecution, or being labelled as traitors.
 
Recession, US rewards those that caused the losses and economic crisis.  So that they can come back again, like GM, Ford, Chrysler, for "mo money". 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s.  Recently September 2008, 25 Billion USD.  Same attitude, same psychology, same people, same results, for Wall Street Corporations (Corporate Board Members are on numerous boards, same people).
 

 UPDATE:  Now they are getting 17.4 Billion USD for a Restructuring Plan due March 2009, which is a Management Function, not a Taxpayer Responsibility.  And Later they will ask for 150 Billion USD to Implement the Restructuring Plan.  So yes, I TOLD YOU SO that they would come back for more money.  And they will come back again in March 2009 or sooner.

david if you are ashamed of being an American ,by all means don't (and that goes for any Hollywood or New York celebrities).Feel free to leave.Better yet,I'll be home (from 3 years in Germany and Iraq)next year and I'll be happy to help you pack.

If you are proud of what is going on now in America, you are an idiot.

Bababoey, it is the government who put us in the position we are in today, not the auto workers or the unions.

The UAW have been taking concessions.  They make $3.00 more an hour than Honda and Toyota.  What would you like the worker's to make an hour $5.00.  When times are bad everyone blames the Union, never mind the Ceos, let them make their bonuses but screw the union.  Solidarity UAW Brothers and Sisters!!!!!

Unions also need to get rid of the numerous job classifications.  Productivity is really where it is at.  Our company supplies machinery to the automotive industry.  We will no longer sell to the big 3.  We simply can't make any money when it takes three weeks to complete a job which in a non-union environment takes two days.  It never ceases to amaze me how the union is able to make something cost ten times as much as it should because of all of the "rules" they make everybody jump through.  In the Honda and Toyota plants we work in we have no problems and people actually seem to want to build automobiles.

The stories can go on and on.  How many chances do we have to give these guys (seems like 70 * 7 just isn't enough).

Please don't ask a "hard working" american to subsidize the "hard working" (not!) union Joes.

If you sense some bitterness it is well deserved.

Its not the wages, its the benefits. Because of those workers in the obese 3 cost 2-3X more than those at Toyota and Honda plants. Amazingly they can find workers Huh?

Plus Toyota and Honda has kept up with the times. Where as the obese 3 seem to think that the race is to have the lowest mpg. Really a 11mpg Hummer, a 500 Hp Mustang a 1000 HP Cadillac. WTH?? I just need to go from here to there, I don't need to do it at warp speed. The Autobahn is in Germany, not in Illinois.

Mismanagement has destroyed the companies, but the UAW hasn't allowed them to be competitive.

It's the benefits - being paid 95% of your salary for 2 years if you're laid off?  Retiring early?  How many of the stories about the retirees of GM who are 58 or 59?

Yes, unions do have a place, but in the current state they've gone way too far.  My brother works in a unionized enviornment and had the exact same experience with things taking forever to get done - he couldn't do it because he wasn't allowed to do that job, but the people who could do it were taking their time.  That's not a way to run a productive business. 

How do you protect your job?  MAKE YOURSELF INDISPENSIBLE!  The company should need you, and see how productive you are instead of just relying on the union to protect your job.

I cannot understand how UAW members feel they are indespesable.  I hear about saving the middle-class, preserving America, yadda yadda yadda.

You work an assembly line.  You do nothing than your prescribed job from clock-in to clock-out.  Millions of other Americans do the exact same thing for a lot less pay.

The people in the factories that manufacture the parts you get paid to put on, get paid a heck of alot less.

So, rather than make concessions and save the millions of jobs you claim to support, you, the UAW would rather drag it all down.  True Americans through and through. 

BTW why don't you look at Ron Gettel"fingers" tax return and see who the true fat cat is. 

You allways compare yourself to the Foreign owned car manufacturers.  Guess what they are over paid also.

Thanks to all for their posts.  It just demonstrates the bureaucratic bs that surrounds every large unaccountable organization.  This is no way to run the world.

Right on. The UAW environment causes gross inefficiency. I've seen it in other union shops where it takes 5X longer to get something done. And the tasks being done are things anyone could do. I've seen this first hand.

You have to have skills that are not easy to replace. You have to want to help your employer succeed. The UAW runs contrary to both.

We cant bring back overseas jobs because the pay scale established by the UAW is to high!

All vehicles manufactured in the USA should not cost as much as a vehicle manufactured outside the USA.

Why would I spend $30+k on a domestic vehicle when I can get a BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc for the same price and the quality is by far, better!

I am an aerospace inspector, I know quality.  US auto manufacturers dont have it and the UAW wont allow them to have it. (due to high hourly costs).

Joseph, I did not see the part where you kick the unions out.

Oh there would be unions, but not to the extent that they cut-off the worker's noses despite their faces. I have a 50-50 feeling about american unions. There needs to be worker's rights for sure, but the monies and salaries that some of these unions want usually result in plant/company shut-downs and nobody wins. Just look at the history of the US airlines for a quick lesson on the subject.

I don't support the unions, as I believe they are an organized conspiracy to extort money from a private business. That does not mean that the business is always operated by good guys. Some are uncaring greedy people. That may be why many people still feel they are needed. You make a good point about the airlines, I remember some of those problems. No doubt people need protection from abuse like firing someone for no cause, health and safety issues, but I think government has a role there. Wages are normally a reflection of your value to the company. Beyond the union issue is the fact these people vote against everything I believe in. They vote for the big tax guys, the anti-gun people and the anti-military crowd. Of course they don't all vote that way...but the vote tally shows that is how they generally vote. I agree workers need rights, no one should be totally under someones thumb.

Unions are driving this country into the ground.  They served their purpose.  Now they are nothing but a drag on productivity.  And here in California, we can't do anything to stop them.  They will pour a hundred million dollars into any election that tries to curtail their power then claim "nobody" wanted a proposition that they won by 1% after completely buying the vote with a misleading advertisement on TV every 15 minutes.  Unions need to go.

This is not the UNION"S fault.  CEOs are still making their millions but screw the worker and the union.  Please!!!!!!!!!

ya the Unions only screw the companies out of $16 million dollar per hour for half ass work.

LEAVE THEM OUT PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! (please not the extra exclamations to show my earnestness)

CEO compensation is set by the MARKET.  If they are good a what they do, other companies will pay them what they are worth if the automakers won't.  Union pay is set not by the market, but by extortion.

While no one really agrees with how much CEOs are paid, lorent is right - it's supply and demand. Someone will pay them well for their skills. If not GM, another company.

UAW guys can be replaced easily and would have a very hard time making half of their current pay + benefits in the real world. Their job is not at all subject to supply and demand. It's been an artificial economy for the UAW for decades.

I think you are correct... I believe in the future you will be able to order your car on-line through an independent auto brokerage that would offer multiple brands. It's much cheaper and dealerships are somewhat of a dinosaur.

Payscale starts from the lowest person on the chain to the highest. 

If Jackass gets paid lets say $20 dollars an hour to screw on lugnuts 8 hours a day I would think Jack ass supervisor would make $25 and hour.

Now lets say Jackass screwing on lugnuts made what he deserves, mininum wage.  I am willing to bet his manager would make $7.50.

Amazes me that McDonald's can figure this out but Detroit can't.

Lexus service centers will be happy to provide you a memento of your visit.It's called the bill.Have you seen these acts in person or can you provide proof other than a 1979 Chevette? I doubt it.

Lexus actually charges less per unit of labor and for parts than either GM or Ford. Best thing though is that their cars don't have as many problems as GM though Ford is getting pretty good on quality.

Perfect! LMAO

It is funny that you can't write a short post that makes a point.If you aren't aware Ford has only asked for a line of credit.By the way is this your only post?Can't you come up with a new one?

How true, Hawaiian.  Buy American, which these days means Toyota, Honda, Kia, Mercedes............  lots of quality choices here.

Yeah and if GM and Crysler go under we will survive also. I understand they were mis managed but UAW President Ron Gettelfinger needs the people to explain to him that when it comes to them working and feeding their families, he no longer speaks for them. He is no different then the over paid CEO's he is not dually concerned about those people as much as he is concerned with keeping all his luxuries

Just to name one reason many of us should not support the American auto industry, is the FACT that the blue states where these industries operate are the biggest electors of anti-American, anti-second amendment people in the country. It cannot be denied that the democrat party is almost..not 100% but close, anti-gun. Their votes are carefully documented by the NRA. I don't think that the NRA supports boycotts, but the info is well documented. Their leaders are vicious haters of gun owners, and will come after the private citizens firearms with a vengence now. Also, these blue state auto industries have elected the lefties that sponsered the destruction of the timber industries in the northwest. They elected Bill Clinton, who as soon as he hit the office began the destruction of logging...not opinion, fact. Anyone that owns firearms, dislikes tax increased, believes in traditional marrige, supports the armed forces, and believes in traditional America, should not spend hard earned money on the American auto industry, and in any blue state unless there is nowwhere else to buy. If you do, you are supporting those that want to take your firearms, trash America,and turn this country into a third world Marxist state. Go to NRA and find out how each of these lefties voted on your right to own a gun.

Oh, if I don't buy a union made hemi-powered monster-mobile..... I will never get my tax dollars back that I have been forced to use to bail out GM/Chrysler.

Since when did any of us get back any money from anyone who is on our governments well-fare rolls???

livin the dream-780837 -  It is time to invest in this country.

Absolutely, now tell GM, Ford, Chrysler to close down all their Plants/Factories that they built using US Bailout Money at Machau, China and Toluca, Mexico.  I would use racial slurs and epitats like Mexican taco wagon or Chinese noodle cart to describe GM, Ford, Chrysler but that would calling it like I see it wouldn't it and not "Politically Correct".

I honestly do not believe that if I buy a bicycle in a box at Walmart, with all parts Made In China, and I assemble the bicycle, that the bicycle is Made In US.  Oh, but Walmart is an American Corporation, so everything they sell is American.  NOT.

Another example, Chinaman waving an American Flag Made In China at China is an American?  Ok, Mexican waving an American Flag Made In China at Mexico is an American?

Get the point.

If you did not get the point.

Foreign Corporation hires Americans to build a Factory in the US using American Raw Materials.  After the Factory is built they hire Americans to make parts.  The parts are transported by an American Transportation Company to an Assembly Plant also in the US built by Americans from American Materials.  The American Workers Assemble the American Made Parts in the US to build a vehicle that is going to be bought by Americans.  The profits from the sales of the vehicles is used to build more parts factories in the US and assembly plants in the US, called reinvesting.

US Corporation hires Mexicans to build a Factory in Mexico using Mexican Raw Materials.  After the Factory is built they hire Mexicans to make parts.  The parts are transported by an Mexican Transportation Company to an Assembly Plant also in Mexico to preassemble vehicles by Mexicans from Mexican Parts.  The preassembled vehicle is Transported by Mexican Transportation Company to US.   American Workers add a few parts Made In China or Mexico in the US to final assemble a vehicle that is going to be bought by Americans.  The profits from the sales of the vehicles is used to build more parts factories anywhere except the US and assembly plants anywhere except in the US, this is called Outsourcing.

if our whole economy goes down because of we don't loan any money to the big 3, that alone is a problem. america is better then that. to rely that much on the auto industry is bad news. i mean seriously, how many new cars do we actually NEED to survive on this planet or continent. we need to lead the way and go a completely different route. i love to drive a ford mustang, its fun as hell, but do i REAAllly Need it? no.. but THEY NEED us to buy it. In this day and age, we really need to prepare for all kinds of wierd ()*&^t.  Some problems we cannot control. u would think we as America could fix this, but w/gov. just spending billions like its pennies, no way.  Its blows me away that our paid from our pocket leaders cannot see this. but what do u expect? they arent losing their pay. total job security. they could spend whatever the hell they  want personally, they have a nice big paycheck coming for 4 years straight. we are the fools. not them.  hats off to the feds, u tricked us real good. amazing liars or completely deluded. i can't tell..haha. what ever u did..congrtz to u and ur families. nice work! ur set. right on! but please, can u stop trying to "help us" enough already. u have enough. stop taking, stop spending. let us catch up for a few decades. give us a break, will u please?

Also keep in mind that 3/4th of the UAW members are retired... That's a  lot of money going to a non-productive work force!

UAW guys love to say "giant sucking sound" about NAFTA. How about the giant sucking sound of thousands of coddled UAW workers collecting benefits from age 48 to death?? AND NOW ON TAXPAYER MONEY.