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New ignition lock laws aim to foil drunk drivers

Fri Jan 2, 2009 5:45 AM EST
us-news, legislation, dui, ignition-locks
Michael Tarm, Associated Press

An undated photo provided by Irving, Texas-based Smart Start, Inc., shows the company's Smart Start 20/20 Ignition Interlock device, a small handheld breath alcohol monitoring device that is wired to a vehicle's ignition system. A new law in Illinois that begins Jan. 1, 2009, will require breathalyzer gadgets in cars for anyone convicted of drunk driving even once. Smart Start is one of several companies that provide the devices. (AP Photo/Smart Start, Inc.)

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CHICAGO — Motorists convicted of driving drunk will have to install breath-monitoring gadgets in their cars under new laws taking effect in six states this week.

The ignition interlocks prevent engines from starting until drivers blow into the alcohol detectors to prove they're sober.

Alaska, Colorado, Illinois, Nebraska and Washington state began Jan. 1 requiring the devices for all motorists convicted of first-time drunken driving. South Carolina began requiring them for repeat offenders.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving has been conducting a nationwide campaign to mandate ignition locks for anyone convicted of drunken driving, claiming doing so would save thousands of lives. But critics say interlocks could lead to measures that restrict alcohol policies too much.

Users must pay for the fist-sized devices, which in Illinois cost around $80 to install on dashboards and $80 a month to rent; there's also a $30 monthly state fee. And they require periodic retesting while the car is running.

"It's amazingly inconvenient," said David Malham, of the Illinois chapter of MADD. "But the flip side of the inconvenience is death."

Other states with similar laws include New Mexico, Arizona and Louisiana. Most other states give judges the option of forcing convicted drunk drivers to use the devices. In practice though, they are rarely ordered unless laws mandate them, according to MADD.

Until now, that's been true in Illinois, said MADD national CEO Chuck Hurley.

"Illinois has excellent law enforcement," he said. "But the judicial system leaks like a sieve. This law will change the catch and release system to one where people are at least caught and tagged."

In Illinois, the interlocks are mandated only for the five to 11 months licenses are suspended with a first DUI. Drivers can opt not to install them, but then would be banned from driving during the suspension period.

Motorists in Colorado get a similar choice — install the devices or get a longer suspension.

The law taking effect in Washington state actually relaxes penalties on drunk drivers, allowing them to avoid a previously mandatory license suspension by getting an interlock. The bill's author, Rep. Roger Goodman, said too many motorists were driving with suspended licenses.

Motorists could try to skirt the devices by, say, having someone else blow into the detector or driving someone else's car. But if caught trying to circumvent the interlocks, they could go to jail.

Within a year, up to 30,000 first-time offenders in Illinois could be using them, state officials estimate.

New Mexico was the first state to mandate the devices in 2005. Since then, according to MADD, that state has seen its drunk-driving deaths fall 20 percent.

Hurley said other states could see the same percentage decline within a few years.

DUI deaths nationally have plummeted to around 15,000 from around 30,000 annually in the early 1980s.

Malham, who supports the technology, said in the future even more advanced technology will enable cars to effectively sniff car cabins, scan faces and eyes of drivers or even test sweat on steering wheels to assess sobriety before engines start.

Not everyone is as enthusiastic.

One of the staunchest critics of interlock laws for first-time offenders is the Washington-based American Beverage Institute, a trade association representing restaurants and retailers.

ABI managing director Sarah Longwell said the group backs interlock laws targeting repeat offenders and those arrested with high blood-alcohol levels.

But she said laws advocated by MADD don't allow judges to distinguish between those who have a few drinks and go just over the 0.08 blood-alcohol legal limit and those who go way over.

"We want sensible alcohol policies," she said. "We want 10 people to be able to come in and have one drink and not one person to come in and have 10."

She said current interlock laws could lead to more draconian measures.

"We foresee is a country in which you're no longer able to have a glass of wine, drink a beer at a ball game or enjoy a champagne toast at a wedding," she said. "There will be a de facto zero tolerance policy imposed on people by their cars."

She argued that MADD puts too much emphasis on links between alcohol and traffic deaths, giving too little regard to the roles excessive speed and driver cell-phone use in deadly accidents.

Proponents of interlock laws say studies back their approach. They cite a 2008 study by the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation that found interlock devices in New Mexico helped decrease repeat offenses by approximately two-thirds.

MADD also points to figures showing one-third of all drunk drivers have a prior DUI conviction.

The American Beverage Institute questions studies cited by advocates, saying they other factors, like education programs, also account for the declines.

Malham concedes Illinois' new law isn't perfect. For one, it only applies to drivers during relatively short license-suspension periods.

"But perfection can't be the enemy of the good, to quote (18th century philosopher) Voltaire," he said. "I'd like to see more teeth in the law in the future. But this is a start."

___

On the Net:

Mothers Against Drunk Driving: http://www.madd.org/

Illinois Secretary of State: http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/

American Beverage Institute: http://www.abionline.org/index.cfm/

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (70)
rsather139

This is something that is badly needed, and if used widely could save many, many lives. And in responce to people who say that it doesn't distinguish: you really shouldn't be driving if you've drunk any alchohol at all.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 6:14 AM EST
Lee B

How does it determine if it's the driver blowing or someone else using the device who hasn't been drinking?

  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:39 AM EST
dbningaiq70

LeeB......up here in New York State;the REGIME is now requiring the devices be installed with Cameras;...a solution countered only if you happen to be an Identical Twin

    #1.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 3:36 PM EST
    eel8

    Wow.  The device has a camera too?  Talk about BIG BROTHER!

      #1.3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 3:40 PM EST
      dbningaiq70

      yes;.....camera;and if you are so lucky to have an Identical Twin; next solution will be [Retina Scanner]...

        #1.4 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 4:11 PM EST
        Lee B

        Don't do the crime, aye?

        • 2 votes
        #1.5 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 3:45 AM EST
        Reply
        eel8

        A few years back, a friend of mine was arrested for DUI and convicted.  No jail, but a device like this was installed on their vehicle.  Their car would not start if it registered a too high alcohol breath result.  I actually watched them getting around it by having someone else blow into it in order to get their car started and on their merry way they went.  I do not know if this device had to be used again while they were driving, but this person got through their probation time (if you will) by this use of another's breath test.

        The upside of this?  The friend did cut down on the amount they drank before driving and has since not had another incident of arrest.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 6:20 AM EST
        sacheson

        I had a similar experience.  Except this device needed someone to blow into it every 5 or 8 minutes.

        And I got all combative with some friends because IF you were sober enough to blow into the breathalyzer to let a drunk drive - WHY WOULD YOU LET THE DRUNK PERSON DRIVE!

        I hate drunken driving.  And I don't care how inconvenient / expensive these things are.  Driving isn't a right.  If you abuse the privlege there are ramifications for enjoying it in the future.

        • 2 votes
        #2.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:34 AM EST
        eel8

        Sacheson:  You are absolutely right.  As the saying goes, "Friends don't let friends drive drunk."  I only had to refuse one time to "substitute blow", as I would like to call it, and I was never asked to participate in their lunacy again; however, there were idiots who actually did this for the person.  Insane!

          #2.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:39 AM EST
          HEAD STONEy

          One of our employees had one in his truck last year....yes you are required to blow into it every so often I thought he said like 10 - 15 minutes...and the unit he had was tone activated, meaning someone else who is sober could not blow into it and start your vehicle...He said when they installed and programmed his, he had to blow into it while also making a humming noise at the same time....and the computer could tell if someone else was trying to start it, because the tone was different....And either he is a major liar [possible] or the thing's are so sensitive, that if he had too much to drink the night before, it would still detect enough alcohol on his breath and not allow him to start the truck...let's say he was late to work alot last year...they took it out a few months ago, and it did not teach him anything..... he still drinks everyday......me I have been sober 3 years and counting.....

          • 2 votes
          #2.3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:48 AM EST
          Reply
          Florida_kes

          "We foresee is a country in which you're no longer able to have a glass of wine, drink a beer at a ball game or enjoy a champagne toast at a wedding," she said. "There will be a de facto zero tolerance policy imposed on people by their cars."

          So this group is actually advocating driving while buzzed????

          • 1 vote
          Reply#3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 6:32 AM EST
          Sgt C USMC

          I think what they're saying is it's turning it from a .08 legal limit (defined by law) to a .00 limit which actually ISN'T the law.  But if I'm correct, the device actually does offer a leeway.

          • 1 vote
          #3.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:05 AM EST
          Reply
          Minan59

          I think that it is a good idea.  I hope other states will follow their lead and enact similar legislation.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#4 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 7:09 AM EST
          Tacitus13

          I like the idea but I do wonder if the fees are excessive.

            #4.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:22 AM EST
            TheWallruss

            Tacitus13:

            Expensive compared to what?  A casket, grave site, flowers, and maybe emergence medical expenses?  I know you mean well and I am not making light of you, however the offender really should pay the cost of this, and remember besides prevention it is a form of punishment.  It's supposed cost a wee and be a bit inconvinient.

            Wally

            • 1 vote
            #4.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:01 AM EST
            Reply
            literarymediaspot.com

            A brilliant idea and now hopefully other countries like the UK will take note.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#5 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 7:55 AM EST
            aoimiyazaki

            This is a great idea! All nations, including Singapore should consider implementing this measure to stop the diasatrous consequences of drink driving. Of course, we have to monitor closely the initial effects of implementing the new ignition lock laws first and then try to refine it in the later stages.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#6 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:16 AM EST
            jbird

            I have taken note that MADD has alienated some of it's staunchest supporters over the years. There is a tendency for them to go overboard, where soon they will be pushing for a second prohibition. It is more a valuable lesson to teach people the art of moderation, which is transferable to most areas of life, than to ban the activity altogether.

            Personally with my temperment, if I am already paying the fines and court fees, I might tell the judge to just take my license and stick the 80 bucks where the sun don't shine.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#7 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:53 AM EST
            TheWallruss

            jbird:

            I do agree that MADD can tend to go a wee overboard at times.  This is sadly true with any organization like this.  It is call power.  Their cause is true and just but they can be a wee bit blinded, and wee pumped up with themselves as they get a taste of power and righteous indignation.

            However if your temperament is as you say and you have a bit of demon making it hard for you to obey Drinking and Driving laws them maybe it is just as well that you blow your cork on the Judge and get it worked out right up front.

            Just a thought mate.

            Wally

              #7.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:17 AM EST
              katrix

              There shouldn't be anything wrong with having a glass of wine at dinner and then driving.  But anyone with a DUI has already shown that they don't understand the limits, so zero tolerance is appropriate for these folks.  

              On a related note, I recently read an article that said morning DUIs are increasing because people don't realize that if they drink until 2:00 a.m. and then go somewhere at 6 the next morning, they are still plastered.

                #7.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:01 PM EST
                Reply
                prutle1

                This is a devise that can have good results stopping drunk drivers.  For a first time offense, I can't see forcing someone to have this installed.  Depending on the blood alcohol level the driver should have their license suspended for a certain amount of time with no appeal.  If it happens after the suspencion is over then it should be installed.  If the driver is found driving another car while intoxicated,  his / her license should be suspended for a period of 5 years.  Some people will complain about how they need their car to get to work or to take their children to some function.  If these things are important to you, then it should be that much more important to you that you don't drink and drive. 

                  Reply#8 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:05 AM EST
                  TheWallruss

                  prutle1:

                  "For a first time offense, I can't see forcing someone to have this installed. "

                  Would you be willin' ta' give this same speech at the wake of the person or persons killed, not by an accident but by the criminal negligence and careless disregard of the first time offender of the DUI laws?

                  If you wanna' dance, you gotta' pay the fiddler mate.

                  Wally

                  • 1 vote
                  #8.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:27 AM EST
                  katrix

                  Depending on the blood alcohol level the driver should have their license suspended for a certain amount of time with no appeal. 

                  The problem is that many people keep driving on suspended licenses.

                    #8.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:02 PM EST
                    TheWallruss

                    katrix:

                    You are so spot on here Luv.  That is why I am for "no first time offender" laws.

                    There are first time offenders when it comes to drinking underage, shoplifting, cheating on a math or history test at school and the like.  However driving drunk is a case of criminal negligence. A case of careless disregard for public safety. 

                    People do not die in DUI accidents. It is no accident. It is a case of someone willfully and wantonly disregarding the life and safety of others.  If one wants to commit suicide go take a long one way swim.  Wrap a plastic shopping bag over your head.  But do not put others lives at stake in the undoing of your own.

                    DUI is a capital crime and should be punished as such.  It should be akin to murder and rape.  Not turned aside with a slap on the wrist and a wink of the eye like a fart in church.

                    Wally

                      #8.3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:33 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Gary Locke

                      I have been pondering this gadget.... the idea is good.  It might deter someone from getting behind the wheel too soon after having a few drinks.  Does it show the would be driver what his current alcohol level is?  Does it let him know how long it will take for the level to drop to the point that the car will start?  I don't think 1st time morons should be required to get one.  But they should be required to sign something that states that they understand and accept the fact that one will be installed if a DUI happens a 2nd time.  Another suggestion would be that first time offenders be required to pay the fee of purchasing the device.  But the fee would be refunded after 1 year, provided that the have no new drunk driving offenses.

                        Reply#9 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:07 AM EST
                        TheWallruss

                        Gary Locke:

                        Same answer to you , as to prutle1's comment just above your posting. 

                        I do think I know where you are coming from, but in truth mate, there should be no first time offender. There is more at stake here than just bangin' a couple of fenders together and b i t c h i n' up the Old Man's auto.

                        Wally

                          #9.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:36 AM EST
                          Reply
                          Gary Locke

                          I think someone is likely to become a paid designated blower!! 

                            Reply#10 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:11 AM EST
                            greck

                            It's funny,

                            I live in NM, I think the first state to utilize these things. 

                            It's pretty darned embarrassing for people to have to blow into one of these things when they get into the car, you see them look around to see if anyone's watching....

                            I don't think one could make the case that it's cruel punishment or unusual because it's so practical, but there's a certain part of me (all of us, really) that kind of enjoys the fact that offenders have to be a little humiliated.

                            The PSA's on tv even allude to this; showing a guy on a first date having to try and explain the gadget...

                              Reply#11 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:44 AM EST
                              Jimi M

                              What about people who drive under the influence of legal medications that have warnings about operating motor vehicles. Who knows how many accidents and deaths they cause.

                                Reply#12 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:47 AM EST
                                eel8

                                Good question.  Here in my area of Pennsylvania, there was a story on the local news about a week ago concerning a device that reads the eyes of a possible offender.  It can tell if the person is under the influence of a drug (legal or otherwise), as well as if the person is actually tired.  I can understand the reasoning behind this because alcohol is not the only thing that impairs driving, but DWTT  -- Driving While Too Tired?

                                  #12.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:45 AM EST
                                  TheWallruss

                                  Jimi M: 

                                  That is a wee of a different fix.  Same song in the end, Danny Boy and six pallbearers, but a wee bit of a different tune.  That will take a different kind of patch.  This is something that is here now and can make a difference in this situation.

                                  The same could be made about finding a cure for cancer and not aids. Lets do what we can when we can and go to fixin' the others when we get there.

                                  Wally

                                    #12.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:49 AM EST
                                    Reply
                                    x_m1tanker

                                    I don't like government intervention in private matters.  However, there are a group of alcohol users who continue to use motor vehicles while intoxicated.  They put the general public and themselves at risk of bodily harm.  Putting a device like this in someone's vehicle that has been convicted of DUI is proactive in my opinion.  I think it is less intrusive than say, mass DUI checkpoints where law enforcement checks everybody for drunk driving in a Nazi style "papers please..." guilty-'till-proven-innocent scheme.  As far as the argument that the device can be bypassed by a friend I'll say this...  ANY law on the books can be broken.  Just because a law can be broken doesn't mean that the law shouldn't exist, or that enforcement shouldn't be attempted.  Driving is a privalage, and if public safety is at risk, then the public needs to be protected from the people who drive drunk.  Maybe we should outlaw cars!?

                                      Reply#13 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:55 AM EST
                                      Bootie

                                      Anybody can get around this silly law if they wanted to.  This idea needs major work, imo.  What's to keep someone from blowing up a few balloons when they are sober and using one to start the car if they've had a few drinks.

                                      Motorists could try to skirt the devices by, say, having someone else blow into the detector or driving someone else's car. But if caught trying to circumvent the interlocks, they could go to jail.

                                      Hmmmm... "but if caught trying to circumvent the device, they could go to jail."  That demonstrates the shallow thinking of this idea.  The usefulness of this device now hinges on the drunk driver's desire to avoid jail.  Well, if jail time was a big enough deterrent for a drunk driver, we wouldn't need the device, now would we? 

                                      I say put aside the techno-gadget devices and all the money that it costs to produce, operate, replace and regulate them.  Instead, how about just some stiff-ass penalties??

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#14 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:19 AM EST
                                      HEAD STONEy

                                       stiff ass penalties.....

                                      first offense........ $1,000 fine...if no one hurt or damaged / if someone hurt or damage go to #3 automatically

                                      second offense.....$2,000 fine and 1 year in National Guard instead of Jail...if no one hurt or damaged / if someone hurt or damage go to #3 automatically

                                      third offense.........$3,000 fine and 3 years active military duty.....if no one hurt or damaged

                                      Don't forget they will also suffer by being away from family, will lose their job [but get a new one via the military], and may even lose their house if they owned one....is that stiff enough ??

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #14.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:29 PM EST
                                      Sgt C USMC

                                      first offense $1,000 ? *LOL* 

                                      In San Diego County, first offense for DUI is a MINIMUM $10,000 cost. (SR22 filing, license reinstatement, court fees, class fees, insurance hikes, and then the fine for the remainer). That's if no one was hurt. 

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #14.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 3:47 PM EST
                                      HEAD STONEy

                                      Sorry Sarge,

                                      first offense $1000? *LOL*

                                      I've heard that it cost a ton of money to still be able to drive after a DUI...It was just an arbitrary number something to go by...never had a DUI/DWI/OUI....the numbers were just that, a number....to be honest when I first wrote it...Third Offense...I had 3yrs. active duty serving under  x_m1tanker or SGT C USMC....but I changed it I thought I might offend you guys...............Ex ARMY SGT here.....I figured some time in the service, dodging bullets would sober them up....

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #14.3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 4:27 PM EST
                                      Sgt C USMC

                                      Head Stoney, 

                                      Gone are the days where its either 'military or jail' You can't join the military even while you're on probation, have an unpaid parking ticket, or if you've been anything but exonerated of any kind of 'honor crime' (theft, perjury, fraud, and the like) It's a whole different military out there now. 

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #14.4 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 4:45 PM EST
                                      HEAD STONEy

                                      Really, I was in back in 1980, I would guess about 25% back then took the military instead of jail option....mostly drug and burglery crimes......interesting....but with todays technology it doesn't take 20 drug dealers to do what 1 or 2 guys can do today...so I guess they can be picky.....but if crap doesn't change soon in the sand box they'll be drafting and taking what they can get.....

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #14.5 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 5:19 PM EST
                                      Sgt C USMC

                                      Stoney,

                                      With a down economy, uncertain job market..the military is having no problems recruiting even with 2 wars.  The Marine Corps ADDED 27,000 Marines to their roles just last year.   A steady job, money for college, and the added benefit of serving their country makes it a pretty easy sell right now.  

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #14.6 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:02 PM EST
                                      HEAD STONEy

                                      When I was in they only offered some help with a college fund that was it, I see now enlistment bonuses, and all kinds of perks to join...My real father was drafted and went to 'nam..my step father stayed home...claimed he was an only child [liar his dad was dead, but he had another brother, who by the way was well over 300lbs and did not qualify for the service]..Back in '80 we were supplying Iran with weapons and getting ready to invade Iraq, amazing how things change but stay the same...I have pictures of the Chinook landing at our base hospital with the hostages, [that was a good day, we knew we weren't going to be on alert for awhile] before they were transported to Frankfurt to come back stateside...man I'm getting old.....

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #14.7 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:13 AM EST
                                      Reply
                                      jphelps-1511

                                      A couple of things that can get around this very easy, have someone blow, or blow into a bag prior to drinking and then squeeze the bag to "blow".

                                        Reply#15 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:45 AM EST
                                        Sitafa Harden

                                        Good point. I still think the device is great idea though. Maybe they can add a DNA verifier to it :-P

                                          #15.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 11:48 AM EST
                                          greck

                                          worse than that: have one of your kids blow into it.

                                          It's happened here in NM.  I saw it on the news.   That's not really the point though.  The device is quite effective in general, but no one intervention is going to fix everything.

                                            #15.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:04 PM EST
                                            dbningaiq70

                                            will not be long before they add [Fingerprint Reader] to the device;because if you live in NYS and score yourself a DWI;they already have your fingerprints

                                              #15.3 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 3:52 PM EST
                                              Reply
                                              TheWallruss

                                              Bootie & jphelps-1511:

                                              There is a go around to all things but maybe death and taxes and there even seems to be a bit of a loophole there as well if one is willing to look hard enough, shake hands with the right people and pay the right amount of money. 

                                              This can and will make a difference. Moreover it does not become burdensome to the rest of the public who willing obey the laws and actually care about someone other than themselves.

                                              Before we had fire hoses and sprinkling systems we put out fires with the bucket brigade. Same theory different fire.

                                              Wally

                                                Reply#16 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:14 PM EST
                                                Bootie

                                                I hear ya, but this thing is too easy to get around.  It's useless if it's not any more secure than it is.

                                                To use your "fire" analogy:  The penalty for starting a fire in your own home is that your house burns down.  That's a stiff deterrent for playing with fire in your home, and that's really the only deterrent needed.

                                                The "fire" equivalent to this law would be a "breathalizer" device you must blow into in order to light a match.  Now, wouldn't that be silly?

                                                  #16.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 12:47 PM EST
                                                  TheWallruss

                                                  Bootie:

                                                  Problem is mate we are not talking about starting a fire in your own home.  We are talking about starting a fire out in the public roadways. 

                                                  But I was not referring to starting fires, I was talkin' 'bout putting them out.  I think the fire in this case is the countless loss of life and limb at the hands of the DUI.  And yes this devise will not put them all out but it will put out many of them until we can find a better method.

                                                  When I first heard of this devise I thought it was a boomer.  Another freedom being infringed upon.  But the more I thought about it the more I liked the idea.  It may not be the bee's knees and sure there is gunna' be some berk out there thinking he's just MacGyver Cool 'cause he can get around it, but most of the recipients of this fine awards will think twice about a short circuit play.  And if they should get caught doing a MacGyver on it then we can bury them with public blessings. Especially if the kill or maim some innocents out there.

                                                  You smell what I'm cookin' here mate?

                                                  It may be easy to get around but the point is they gotta' get around it and that goes to intent.  It's a wee embarrassing to stand up in a courtroom and tell the judge, "Hay Man, it was an accident, I didn't mean to get around the breathalyzer thingy".

                                                  Wally

                                                    #16.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 1:26 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    clay-794778

                                                    If the point is these things are going to save lives should'nt they be standard equipment in all new cars? Like airbags and seatbelts. Why give some amatuer coming home from a christmas party the opportunity to drink in drive if it could be prevented to begin with? It would also keep individuals more conscious of their drinking if they know they have to blow to get home.

                                                      Reply#17 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 3:24 PM EST
                                                      TheWallruss

                                                      I personally disagree with seat belt laws and motorcycle helmet laws for persons over the age of accountability.  If a person is old enough to buy and drink liquor and old enough to pack a weapon and fight a war for his or her country said person is old enough to decide if he or she should wear a seat belt or a helmet.  Their insurance may cost them based on their decision but that is their choice.  

                                                      If that is the choice then let's bring back prohibition.  If one can not be trusted to not drink and drive then none can be trusted not to drink and drive.

                                                      I think it is fair to let the offender pay the price. Not all.

                                                      Wally

                                                        #17.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 5:44 PM EST
                                                        Al 616

                                                        Alaska? Well, I guess Ms. Palin's doing something right.

                                                          #17.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 7:11 PM EST
                                                          Reply
                                                          James-524321

                                                          this country has gone over board with this stuff..people die all the time .Madd  what the heck is wrong with you ,,ok your son died ,,sorry get over it ..soon you'll be died too and in 20 years past your death you'll be forgotten !!  your a free person to do what you want and if your buzzed ..ok 75 % of the people in this country drink ..,maybe more ...so we should stand up to this and say no ..lets vote on this and see if MADD can get away with it..i dont think so ..Vote no on MADD !!  

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#18 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 6:11 PM EST
                                                          chris7613Deleted
                                                          Reply
                                                          clay-794778

                                                          I don't know about the effectiveness of this thing as a deterrent to repeat offenders. People are creative and they will find a way. I've known guys who steal license plates to get around suspended tags. The only people this thing will stop are the people who probably never would have done it again anyway.

                                                            Reply#19 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 7:51 PM EST
                                                            TheWallruss

                                                            "The only people this thing will stop are the people who probably never would have done it again anyway."

                                                            If they would never do it anyway then they would not have to be stopped.  So we have established that they in fact did do it.  But many did it did not really think about the consequences.  Now they have, after they have been caught the first time a wee more to think about and bit more incentive not to do it again. 

                                                            It's kind of like saying that flu vaccinations only save a few lives so let's not have them.  The point is they do save a few lives.  That will do until something better comes along.

                                                            For those of us smart enough to know better than to drink and drive it is a none issue.  I will never have to be embarrassed by or bear the price of installing or paying monthly fees for the pleasure of it's companionship. 

                                                            And yes there will be those who find a way to bypass it.  And they will sooner or later pay the price.  And if it dissuades just one person from driving intoxicated and that saves just one life ( perhaps a loved one of yours ) isn't it worth it?

                                                            It's not like they are imposing restrictions on all of us.  Just those that really do not care about the rest of us.  Those willing to put your life into their own inebriated hands.

                                                            Wally

                                                            Wally

                                                              #19.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:24 PM EST
                                                              Reply
                                                              clay-794778

                                                              It's not really a restriction if you havent been drinking and like you said "if it saved a few lives". How many people have "one or two" and still get home without incident? Perhaps no one was in front of them when they crossed the yellow line. They have'nt been deterred from doing it again till they get caught or kill someone. If it's a punishment let's call it that. If it's a deterent and saving lives is the issue then everyone needs one.

                                                                Reply#20 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 8:49 PM EST
                                                                Lukepccpa

                                                                I just love these discussions on DWI laws when everybody comes out with their "fry the bastards" attitudes.

                                                                If ignition interlocks are such a great idea, why don't we just make them standard equipment on every vehicle?  What a better deterrent than knowing you can't get in any vehicle and start with without blowing first?  Then everbody has to play by the rules, and not just the unlucky souls that get caught.

                                                                  Reply#21 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:25 PM EST
                                                                  TheWallruss

                                                                  It is not a matter of being unlucky.  It is a matter of breaking the law. It is even more a matter of putting others lives in jeopardy. 

                                                                  Those that do not drink and those that drink responsibly have no reason to be penalized.  Just those that are arrogant enough to think they may drive safely when inebriated.  And them getting caught...... Well that doesn't make them unlucky, but it sure is lucky for the rest of us.

                                                                  I don't want to "Fry Them".  But I do want them to stop endangering the rest of us.  And if it is an inconvenience to them..... well that is their choice. 

                                                                  Wally

                                                                    #21.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:58 AM EST
                                                                    Lukepccpa

                                                                    I do consider most DWI arrests to be unlucky because you're not usually talking about slobbering drunks, but generally decent people who have had a few too many by current DWI laws.  Most DWI stops aren't initiated because the driver was all over the road, driving on the sidewalk, or taking out mailboxes.   They are usually initiated with some minor traffic violation as an excuse to make the DWI stop.

                                                                    .08 is not hard to get to, and most people who consider themselves "responsible" have probably been above .08 and drove at one time or another.  The law used to be .15, and this was a number determined by scientific research.  .08 is a legal fiction pushed by MADD to increase DWI arrests.  Most DWI arrests today are under .15, and most drunk driving fatalities are over .15.   With the current .08 laws, we aren't really dealing with "drunk driving", we are dealing with "impaired driving".

                                                                    Are you aware that in 83% of drunk driving fatalities, the person killed is the drunk driver, the drunk driver's willing passenger, or a drunk pedestrian?  That puts actual innocent victim fatalities down around 2500 per year. (This is from the NHTSA statistics). 

                                                                    I'm not an advocate of drunk driving, but the current push by MADD and the government has nothing to do with drunk driving.  It has everything to do with MADD's pohibitionist agenda, and the state governments trying to generate as much revenue as they can.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #21.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 1:09 PM EST
                                                                    eel8

                                                                    Lukepcpa:  I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Not everyone who stops off to have a beer or two after work is going to kill someone in a drunk driving accident.  I've actually seen the police "sit on a bar".  I know a few people that got arrested when they left.

                                                                    The police sitting on a bar mark tires.  The longer you are in the bar generates a different color mark on the tire.  You might start out with a blue mark and end up with a yellow or a red mark, etc.  Years ago, before the .08 level was adopted, my tires were actually marked and thank goodness I wasn't there very long and I did not get stopped after I left.  This tire marking is supposedly not allowed, but is has been done.

                                                                    I think around here most of the DUI arrests are probably made due to the roadblocks/checkpoints they set up.  They have netted quite a few arrests that way, not just for DUI, but for drugs and outstandig warrants, as well as for uninsured and unlicensed drivers.  You used to be able to pull off on a side street or road to avoid the roadblock, but now they usually have other cars in the area ready to pull over the ones who attempt to avoid beig stopped.

                                                                    I will end this comment with the statement that no death caused by drunken driving is acceptable, but it seems that there are too many repeat offenders on the roads.  It really gets to me when I read about a drunk driving death and the offender is someone who has actually killed someone in previous DUI.

                                                                      #21.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:39 AM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      Lukepccpa

                                                                      I did a little reading after I posted, and MADD does indeed want to put ignition interlocks on all vehicles as standard equipment. 

                                                                      CBS NEWS . You have a few drinks, climb behind the wheel of your car, turn the key and — nothing. The engine doesn’t turn over, the car doesn’t move.

                                                                      If Mothers Against Drunk Driving has its way, a device that checks a driver’s alcohol levels will be mandatory in cars owned by anyone ever convicted of drunk driving, and, eventually, every automobile…(Emphasis added.)

                                                                      There are nearly 1.5 million drunken driving arrests last year, but only 100,000 ignition interlocks are currently in use, so even tagging first offenders isn’t really enough, says MADD…

                                                                      Now what is interesting is the big donors to MADD's "an interlock in every car push" are the very manufacturers of these interlock devices (who could thereby sell more of these devices), and the car companies (who could mark up the price of their cars for putting in these devices).

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      Reply#22 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:01 PM EST
                                                                      eel8

                                                                      I'm for stopping drunk driving as much as the next person, but this is like being "guilty until proven innocent".  Not everyone drinks and this would not be fair.  There are definitely problem people out there who mandate one of these devices on their cars for the rest of their driving lives, but give me a break.  Government is getting too far into our lives and up our a##@# anymore. 

                                                                      You've heard about third hand smoke haven't you?  I'm waiting for the push to keep you out of a restaurant or public place now if you just have the odor of cigarette smoke on your clothes.

                                                                      MADD is a wonderful organization -- up to a point and that point will have been passed when they force all vehicles to carry this device.  Can you say Fascism?

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #22.1 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:12 PM EST
                                                                      Bootie

                                                                      What eel8 said.

                                                                      Stuff like this is too controlling.  Life ain't worth a thing for a puppet on a string.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #22.2 - Fri Jan 2, 2009 10:38 PM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      TheWallruss

                                                                      I carry a gun with me almost every where I go.  And when I am out and about town every so often I get the hankering to do a wee of target shooting.  So when I feel like it I just make sure there is no one looking and I shoot things. Inanamet targets only,  usually a can or small box like a milk or juice carton. ( will not shoot bottles as it makes such a nasty mess and I would not want a child to come along and get hurt on the broken glass.)  I am very careful about this though.  I make sure that I have a safe back stop like a tree or stone or brick building so the bullet won't go flying of into never never land. I usually stay away from parks and play areas for obvious reasons,  and if I am shooting across a roadway I am always careful to watch out for traffic.  I would not want a car to drive in front of my barrel at the wrong time. That could get a wee ugly.

                                                                      I have also built a bullet catcher for my house so I can pop of at targets in my living room without worrying about the neighbors catching a stray one zinging about.

                                                                      Wally

                                                                        Reply#23 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 5:26 AM EST
                                                                        Sgt C USMC

                                                                        Umm Wally...what does this have to do with drunk driving ? Did you mean to post this to another thread?

                                                                          #23.1 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 5:49 AM EST
                                                                          TheWallruss

                                                                          Ya' know Sarge, I'm really glad you asked that question.

                                                                          There are a few postings on this thread make me think that some of these blokes think it's alright to drink and drive.  Some seem to suggest that it's OK as long a no one gets hurt, and some seem to suggest that as long as you know you are being safe ( just had a wee bit and a little buzzed, not really drunk just a wee impaired ) that it's really not a bad thing and others should just stay out of their business. And some seem to  suggest that being picked up because some berk is drunk enough to get into a wreck and hurt someone is just fine by them but if there is not wreck, just a wee of wiggly driving or some bloke gets caught at a roadblock or by a copper who stopped them for a burned out headlamp or for not using a turn signal then that just ruddy bad luck or a case of a policeman getting his Allen Whicker in a knot and taking it out on the "innocent".

                                                                          So I was just wonderin' how they would feel if I applied these same self absorbed excuses to anther equally dangerous breach of the law.

                                                                          Smell what I'm cookin' he here Sarge? 

                                                                          By the By I noticed in earlier postings that some to the "Brothers in Arms" were doing a wee of bonding.   I wanted to tell you that I served in the U.S. Army Special Forces ( yes I am a Snake Eater and proud of it ) from early 1973 until 1986.  I wanted to through my hat ( or Beret as the case my be ) in the ring as I am well proud of my service and would like to thank all of you others out there for your service and sacrifice.  You fellers are the tops in my Yellow Pages.  Thanks mates.

                                                                          Wally

                                                                            #23.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:53 AM EST
                                                                            Lukepccpa

                                                                            Per the CDC, there were 30,694 firearm related deaths in the US in 2004.  Per the NHSTA, there were 16,694 alcohol related deaths in 2004.

                                                                            Perhaps by your example, we should ban all firearms in the United States.

                                                                            And to enforce this ban, the police can search your person, your car, and your house for firearms without reasonable suspicion or probable cause.  If you refuse to submit to the search, you are automatically arrested, charged, and penalized.  If you are caught with a firearm, the firearm is immediately confiscated.  And if you want to fight this charge, all the state has to do is prove you had a firearm in your possession.  The state doesn't have to prove reasonable suspicion for the investigation, probable cause for the arrest, or that the investigation or arrest procedures were properly followed.  And after that, your house and vehicles will all be wired with special sensors, and you have to wear a special bracelet at all times, that can sniff gun residue to make sure you don't have another firearm in your possession, or are in the presence of a firearm.

                                                                            Sound draconian?  That's what DWI laws are like.  The Constitution and the Bill of Rights gets thrown out the window in a DWI case.  You have more rights and protections of the law if your discharge your gun in a crowded theater or rob a bank.

                                                                              #23.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 2:22 PM EST
                                                                              TheWallruss

                                                                              It doesn't sound draconian, it sounds like sour apples. 

                                                                              If I were to get caught using a firearm illegally I would have no problem with being profiled for firearms for a probationary time afterwards. 

                                                                              As I said before "if you wanna' dance you gotta' pay the fiddler".

                                                                              Sounds like you are not willing to ante up.

                                                                              Wally  :)

                                                                                #23.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 2:41 PM EST
                                                                                Lukepccpa

                                                                                How is it sour apples to disagree with the enforcement and administration of a law?

                                                                                If the legal standards enforcement tactics, and penalties used in DWI laws were applied to other potentially dangerous activities (from speeding, to distracted driving, to firearm ownership - all voluntary activities also), there would be a national revolt.

                                                                                Let's apply this scenario another way.  According to the NHSTA, there 13,192 speeding related deaths in 2004 (versus 16,694 alcohol related deaths in 2004).  In the big scheme of things, speed kills almost as many people as alcohol.  As speeding is an entirely voluntary action on the part of the driver (just like drinking and driving), lets apply the same standards to speeding as we do to drunk driving. 

                                                                                If you're caught speeding, your license is immediately revoked for a period of time.  After that, you have to have a device installed in any vehicle you drive that keeps you from exceeding the speed limit.  If you are caught speeding again, you lose your license for a period of years or permanently.  And it doesn't matter if you are 1mph over the speed limit or 20mph over the speed limit.  Speeding is speeding.  (Just as .081 BAC is treated just the same as .15BAC under the current .08 limit.) 

                                                                                In my 17 years as an emergency responder, I can tell you that the most horrendous accidents I have worked were caused by excessive speed, not alcohol.

                                                                                  #23.5 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 3:51 PM EST
                                                                                  TheWallruss

                                                                                  Lukepccpa:

                                                                                  I agree.  Lets clamp down of speeding and other traffic violations. 

                                                                                  If someone caused a death or injury by speeding I think it should be handled in the same manner as a DUI. 

                                                                                  If someone dies or is injured because I disregard traffic safety laws then I should be charged with the same standards as a DUI.  It is not an accident if I intentually speed, run a red light or stop sign, pass in a no passing zone, don't get my car inspected and drive a car with faulty parts, and the list goes on.  If I kill someone with my car because of negligent acts or action on my part it is not an accident. It is careless or criminal disregard. And it should be charged and handled as such.

                                                                                  The lawyers would us intent here to get someone off.  The courts would have to prove criminal intent.  If I am racing other driver, drag or street racing type stuff it is pretty easy to so intent. I intended to brake the law. I intended to go over the posted speed limit.  But if I am just cruising down the freeway it is a wee harder to show intent. They would have to build a pattern.  I think drivers build their own patterns and it will show in their driving records.  If I am repeatedly running red lights and stop signs somewhere in system my name should be flagged and sooner or later the authorities should be able to come to my door and arrest me. If not arrest me, put me on probation and if within a certain amount of time I do it again really through the book at me.  If someone is injured or killed they should bring my driving record to court and show my intent.

                                                                                   I have built a criminal pattern.

                                                                                  Now in the case of a DUI it is a wee bit easier to show intent.  I did not accidentally get in my car and drive it down the street after tipping back a few pints of ale.  I may not have intended to kill or maim someone but I did intended to ignore the law. I did intend to drive when I was impaired.  I have in fact started what is called a crime spree.   When  someone performs a criminal act, ( here it is driving when impaired with alcohol or drugs ) from the moment they start until they stop it is called a crime spree. And they are responsible for any damage or harm caused by said crime spree.  They knowingly and wantonly performed a criminal act that put the property and lives of others in jeopardy. They are responsible for all of it. It would not have happened had they not decided to ignore the law. They should have known better. They are culpable for there actions.

                                                                                  Lukepccpa I am not trying to berate or belittle you.  And let me say this here and now. I appreciate and respect you and your work.  Thank You for the lives you save and the suffering you reduce.  I sincerely mean that.  As a former County Sheriff I have seen my share of people hurt in wrecks of all kinds and for any amount of reasons.  It is not an easy job you do, and I tip my hat to you.

                                                                                  A true accident just as ugly as any other wreck. However when it is caused by someone who thinks they can play Anthony Joseph Foit Jr. out on the freeway, or someone who likes to let Jack Daniels do the driving it really burns me up.  Someone got hurt because someone else just did not give a damn.  And I know you have been there, walked up on a wreck and found a child, and young family, an expecting mother, etc in a state of suffering or beyond suffering because some arrogant berk just didn't care.  If I can stop that then I am willing to give it a shot.

                                                                                  That's what I am cookin' mate.

                                                                                  Going one mile an hour over the speed limit or having one shot or one beer and driving a car.  Get tough on these wankers and don't apologize about it and don't back down.

                                                                                  Wally

                                                                                    #23.6 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 5:47 PM EST
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                                                                                    breelaboyDeleted
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