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Grim job outlook turns bleaker

Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:07 AM EST
technology, obama, eye-on-the-economy, economy, congress, only-on-msnbc-com, jobs, job, stimulus, package, president-elect-barack-obama
msnbc.com News — By John W. Schoen, Senior Producer

A state-by-state look at the deteriorating employment situation.

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— Friday’s employment report — showing another half million jobs lost in December — confirms an already bleak outlook for the job market and adds urgency to President-elect Barack Obama's plan for a massive economic stimulus package.

But analysts say that even with fresh federal stimulus of $775 billion or more the job market probably won’t pick up again until early 2010.

The U.S. unemployment rate jumped to 7.2 percent in December, the highest since early 1993. For all of 2008, the economy lost a total of 2.6 million jobs. That was the most in one year since 1945, when nearly 2.8 million jobs were lost.

Some 1.9 million of those jobs were lost in just the last four months of the year.

"The situation is dire," Obama said during a news conference Friday to discuss additional appointments for his administration. He added that "this is the moment to act and act without delay."

The latest data show that virtually all sectors of the economy are being hit with job losses.

“In the last several months you can see that the job losses have spread sharply to the service economy, which tells you that the recession is rippling out into all parts of the economy — not just focused on production of durables,” said Joel Prakken, chairman of Macroeconomic Advisers, which jointly produces a private tally of jobs with payroll provider ADP.

As the pace of job losses has increased, so has the sense of urgency for a huge government spending package to get the economy back on track. Details are still sketchy, but in a speech Thursday Obama painted broad outlines of the kinds of programs he wants Congress to approve as part of his plan to “create or save” 3 million jobs.

The package would include tax cuts for individual and businesses, along with massive investments in energy, education, health care and infrastructure. Congressional leaders have said they hope to have the package ready by early February.

Local governments, small businesses, homeowners and other consumers could get additional financial aid from an ongoing overhaul of the $700 billion financial rescue program past by Congress last year. The program has come under attack from members of Congress who are critical of how the first half of the money was allocated and calling for changes that broaden its scope. Under the original program, congressional approval is needed before the second half can be spent.

No matter how much money is committed, the downward economic spiral will be difficult to break. Consumers — many who have been laid off or fear for their jobs — have pulled back on spending. That has cut into sales of goods and services, leading to a vicious cycle that results in yet more layoffs.

“Unfortunately, that’s the scenario we see ahead,” said Bernard Baumohl, chief global economist at The Economic Outlook Group in a note. “Even if Washington enacts and then implements the (economic stimulus) program fairly quickly, don’t expect any sharp rebound in job creation anytime soon. At best, we expect the economy to emerge from recession in the second half, but the recovery in employment will take longer.”

That outlook is shared by forecasters at the Federal Reserve.

“Amid the weaker outlook for economic activity over the next year, the unemployment rate (is) likely to rise significantly into 2010,” according to minutes of the Fed’s December meeting of policymakers released this week.

Most economists say they don’t expect hiring to pick up again until well after the economy begins to show clear signs of recovery. Until then, job losses from deteriorating sectors like commercial construction and retail sales are likely to outnumber any new jobs the Obama stimulus plan may create to rebuild roads or develop alternative energy technology.

“The bigger question (about the stimulus program) is not the direct job creation, but can the combination of monetary and fiscal policy shock the economy back to life, causing growth in private-sector jobs?” said Ethan Harris, co-head of U.S. economics research for Barclays Capital. “Our guess is that by the fourth quarter of this year, jobs will start to slowly recover, but there will be more than 2 million jobs lost between now and then.”

One of the cornerstones of the proposed stimulus package is a massive investment in public works projects. The hope is that projects that have already won approval — and are lacking only funding — can produce quick results. A report from the U.S. Conference of Mayors last month listed more than 11,000 so-called “shovel ready” projects in 427 cities.

But it remains to be seen what kind of guidelines would be used to move projects to the top of the list. Obama acknowledged those concerns in his speech, exhorting Congress to "put the urgent needs of our nation above our own narrow interests."

State governments — facing huge budget gaps as sales and property taxes have fallen — are also pressing Congress to include direct aid in any stimulus package

“Aid to state government is important for preserving jobs,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Economy.com. “If you don’t give aid, governments are going to cut all kinds of programs and have to lay off people as well.”

Savings those jobs also means preserving consumer spending and avoiding more defaults on mortgages, car loans and credit card bills. Zandi figures that every dollar spent on state aid would generate roughly $1.36 in benefit to the economy.

To further backstop state and local governments and avert budget meltdowns, Obama this week proposed having the Fed buy municipal bonds to help cut borrowing costs. The program would be similar to the Fed’s move last fall to buy commercial paper, which many companies rely on to manage their cash flow.

It’s not clear whether the stimulus package will be able to boost employment in the ailing housing industry. Dozens of homebuilders descended on Capitol Hill this week to lobby for mortgage subsidies and tax breaks for home buyers. The National Association of Realtors is also pressing Congress for relief to reverse heavy job losses in the brokerage industry.

Economists generally agree that a sustained economic recovery won’t be possible until the housing market stabilizes.

“The fact that housing prices have kept falling so dramatically is one of the reasons the financial system is not recovering," said Frederic Mishkin, a Columbia University economist and former Fed governor. “So steps along those lines — to either lower mortgage rates or increase demand for housing — should also be a part of this package. “

Rising unemployment is exacerbating the home foreclosure situation. A record one in 10 American mortgage holders was at least a month behind on payments or in foreclosure at the end of September, the latest month available. Credit Suisse predicted last month that more than 8 million foreclosures would occur over the next four years, representing 16 percent of all U.S. mortgages.

Congress is pushing to head off foreclosures on several fronts, including a measure to allow bankruptcy judges to modify loan terms on residential first mortgages. The measure, which was twice defeated during last year’s debate over a housing relief bill, got a major boost Thursday when Citigroup agreed to support it with some modifications, including a requirement that only existing mortgages qualify.

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  • Public Discussion (197)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
Shane Ashton

So let me get this straight...HORRIBLE job numbers causes the dollar to soar in value and the precious metals to plummet.

and the DOW just kinda trickles down. This is should a massive boon to the DOW...its should plummet 200-300 points immediate. and WHY does this not happen.....

MARKET MANIPULATION....we live in a socialist country where the government finds ways to spin, tweak, lie, steal to make things looks all rosy.

  • 8 votes
#1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:30 AM EST
Greg-281912

Shane, of course the DOW is manipulated!

The DOW 30 is the total of the value of 30 stocks, multiplied by a mysterious factor that NO ONE can explain!

I have an MBA in finance!  Believe me when I say that this number, as well as all numbers having to do with the economy, finance, unemployment, housing, etc., are all manipulated to inflate someone's bank balance.

I am not being paranoid.  It's all ****.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:49 AM EST
capricorncory

Uh no.  Your so called HORRIBLE job numbers still pale by comparison to both the depression and the recession of the early 80's.  The real manipulation is coming from the MEDIA that continues to obfuscate facts and print whatever it deems important, the goal being to scare people into watching or reading the news, which in turn leads to higher advertising rates.

The reason the dow isn't responding the way you expect is that investors are finally figuring out that while this will be a pretty bad recession, we are pretty much at the bottom of the recession and things will only get marginally worse before, as 90% of the economists have stated, except the ones the national enquirer..err..MSNBC quotes, we should start seeing an improvment end of 2 qtr this year and second, we are still producing stuff, so companies still have net worth.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:56 AM EST
Shane Ashton

We are not in the bottom....we are NO WHERE NEAR the bottom.

  • 8 votes
#1.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:29 PM EST
George-313012

Capri is about as accurate as it is going to get.  The US economy is all bubbles and BS (media).   Things were great with the Clinton-era stock bubble - then the early Bush-era housing bubble.

Personal debt - credit cards, SUV's and over-sized houses, along with zero savings has bankrupted the US.   Media hype (lies, ignorance and ego) will prevent any chance for recovery.

Obama plan is nothing more than government hiring (FDR did the same thing) - it has zero chance of working (New Deal only spent money).  But the corrupt Dem congress loves it - if it smells like socialism and Marxism - Pelosi and Frank can't get enough of it.

 

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:27 PM EST
21st John

What person is coming up with these numbers?  Vague descriptions of experts who claim the job market will turn around in 2010?  Last time these prophetic fools pooled their minds together we were supposed to recover around mid 2009.  Why does the media keep giving these buffoons a place to spit out their useless predictions?  All the media is doing is feeding the fears in this country to keep us locked in and watching.  I wish these reporters would really start doing some investigating to find answers not just dribbling out what is handed to them by the government or Wall Street.  Under what conditions will the job market turn around in 2010?  How about some useful information?  I don't want to read anymore government or corporate manipulated data.  Oh that's right.  The media is corporate owned and profit driven.  Silly me.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:32 PM EST
Shane Ashton

The nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman so far is the only common sense guy out there claiming that there will be no recovery until personal and federal debt is significantly reduced.

And George....95% of the population believes that the New Deal pulled us out of the Depression. I don't understand why the remaining 5% like you has a voice. Personally, I think the New Deal worked until they decided to balance the budget. Sadly it was WWII that saved us. I think Obama wants to combine New Deal era government spending, with WWII mobilization. Instead of making cars, Detroit should be building electric trains and hybrid busses IMMEDIATELY. Then instead of all the brainless jobs of parking attendants and food servers, we should be funding green agriculture that doesn't utilize oil for pesticide, natural gas for fertilizer.

And my own pet peeve, legalize marijuana for industrial fuel, paper, clothing, and plastics.

So far its been the Democratic Congress who has held back advancement YES, but you have to realize there are 3 forces at work in the Congress not just two.
1. Conservative, right wing nut jobs
2. Democrat and Republican Corporate douchebags
3. Progressive minded liberals
Guess who makes up the majority.....the Congressmen and women who received money from the military industrial complex, Big Pharma, Oil Companies, Bankers, and Insurance. This is why we need public funding of elections....to get quality candidates who are paid for their vote ONLY by the American people. I think we should make ALL lobbying gifts ILLEGAL and only allow a congressional candidate to use a percentage of the Federal Election Fund.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:42 PM EST
Un-Common Common Sense

Capricorncory,

I don't know where you are getting your information from but you are in for a rude awakening soon. Unemployment has only begun to plummet and you won't have to wait long to see it. In the 1st and 2nd Qtrs of 2009 you will see massive closings from retail stores and along with lots of jobs lost. This will spread to manufacturing companies, malls, shopping centers etc.  The auto industry is on the brink of collapsing and only government intervention will keep the afloat. The economy will improve someday but it will not be this year!  It's good to be optimistic but it's more important to be realistic!

  • 8 votes
#1.7 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:46 PM EST
david-475776

Shane Ashton

We are not in the bottom....we are NO WHERE NEAR the bottom.

Absolutely correct.

The "Restructuring Plan" for GM, Chrysler due March 2009 includes the Closure of 1/3 US Plants/Factories, Layoff of 1/3 US "Work Force" while retaining Toluca, Mexico; Ontario, Canada; Machau, China; Shanghai, China this is to become "Economically Viable" by permanently escaping from the high price of Labor Unions.  They will be asking for an estimated 150 Billion USD to implement the Restructuring Plan + 17.4 Billion USD (recieved to basically write a Restructuring Plan).

Additionally, those are conservative numbers, jobs lost, this does not include those whose Unemployment Insurance has expired.

All of the previous attempts to create jobs during times of crisis did not have to deal with one factor, Labor Unions.

That baloney in the article stating “shovel ready” projects means Union Jobs, not all the other sectors.  The other jobs, are Police Union, Teachers Union.  This is not meant as Union bashing, just what has been stated in the article.  When I see one person repairing a road and three people watching based on Union Work Rules, or when I hear that we are near the bottom of the ratings list for education, why are we rewarding failure, just like the Bailout Babies.

The proposed "Green" jobs, were tested for years in other countries, in some cases by US Corporations, and proven as failures.  The real solution (successfully used at Hawai'i since 1911, and other countries since 1950s) will and previously has been defeated by the Corn Lobbists, Oil Lobbists, except for Louisiana, 2009.

So here we go again "Government and Special Interests business as usual".

Something about the public attitude is going cause another disaster.  Most people think that the Asians built all those factories/plants in the US out of greed.  Wrong.  If it were greed they would have built in China like the Obese 3, instead of the US.  This was a payback as a "hand up", work for US Citizens; not a "hand out", welfare.  Why, because of the motivation of those in charge, payback for the MacArthur Plan, prevented them from starving to death as children.  See movie "Graves of the Fireflies".  So once the WWII Yellow Journalism starts up again and they leave the US (as persuded by the current generation) to China, due to anti "Foreign"; eventhough, they invested more in the US than US Corporations (name only).  You will see who was really "American" at these states: California, Oregon, Tennesse, Texas, Washington, New Mexico, Arizona, Louisianna, Ohio, Mississippi, Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, Nevada, Virginia, Indiana (2008), etc.. The profits from sales remain in the US and reinvested as learned in US Business School, taught by American W.E. Deming.  example: Dec 2008, Honda Indiana Plant/Factory.  2009 Toyota, Mississippi Plant/Factory.  versus GM, Ford, Chrysler, 2009, closure 1/3 US Plants, layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" while retaining Machau, China; Toluca, Mexico and Shanghai, China Plants/Factories these foreign plants/factories were built using previous US Bailout Money.  Reason that they will do this is to become "economically viable" irregardless of the effect to the US.  The cost to implement the 2009 Restructuring Plans is approximately 150 Billion USD +17.4 Billion USD.  The casualities will be more of US Citizens, unemployed.

So Shane Ashton we are no were near the bottom, not even close yet.  If we hit some of the indicators in one of my 1993 papers (research conducted since 1990) to the Governor and State Government, this is nowhere near the bottom.

  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:46 PM EST
Shane Ashton

:-)

    #1.9 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:57 PM EST
    david-475776

    Add to post 1.8

    If you REALLY look you will find out that most of the "Made In the US" is NOT.  Example: Melamine in Chinese powdered milk that was used in "Made In US" Dove Chocolates.  Guess the Made In US powdered milk from Oregon wasn't good enough for Dove Chocolates (sarcasm and condemnation of Dove Chocolates).

    Next you are going to say buy "American" Cars.  Give me a break.  So I will use the "Walmart" example.  I buy a bicycle in a box (unassembled) from Walmart, parts Made In China, I assemble the bicycle in the US.  Is that bicycle Made in the US.  This is why the American Auto Plants are Plants and not Factories, they are Assembly Plants, not Factories that manufacture things.  Their parts are from Toluca, Mexico; Ontario, Canada; Machau, China; Shanghai, China.  While the "Foreign" Automakers actually have Factories and Plants in the US, making parts with a lower Fault Tolerance of .5mm instead of what is acceptable to the Obese 3 in the US (not overseas, like GM Opel, Ford AG) a Fault Tolerance of .7mm.  There is your "quality" difference in measurement (physically measureable, not opinon), and why the US Obese 3 (not overseas) will never match anyone elses, including their own overseas, Quality.  Hence:

    A higher Quality GM that you can never own.  http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=81&docid=50345

    The only people that are really "Made In US" by Law are the Government Owned Factories/Plants building equipment for the US Military to support the War In Iraq and Afghanistan.  Thousands of Factories/Plants were build during the "Cold War" and distributed throughout the US in the event of a nuclear war with the USSR.  By Law the US Military must "Buy US Only Products, Goods and Services".  This excluded the Obese 3 since they outsourced their parts production to Mexico, Canada, China.  So the Obese 3 do not build squat for the US Military since 1994, loss of major contracts.

    Unfortunely, the Politicians are not listening because their "lunch money" comes from the "Corporate America" Lobbists.

    Regarding how much money was spend by the Bailout Babies on Lobbists:

    "Your tax dollars are going for . . . what?"

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/the-10-worst-bailout-boondoggles.aspx

    Specifically,

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/the-10-worst-bailout-boondoggles-slides.aspx?slide-number=10
    Citigroup, Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase each spent around $5 million lobbying the federal government during the first nine months of 2008. Citigroup is getting $45 billion in bailout money, while the two others are getting $25 billion each. You can expect millions of dollars of that money to be spent on wining and dining Washington lawmakers; none of the banks has indicated it plans to cut back on lobbying

    • 3 votes
    #1.10 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:57 PM EST
    david-475776

    Message sent:

    Really love your show.  I know I am a guy.  Still love your show.  Great job.
     
     
    Just have to say this, with the current US Economic Situation.  Hopefully DOES NOT happen.
     
    Rachel Ray: (Emphatically)  Whats for dinner tonight?
     
    Rachel Ray: (Smiling) Depression Era Dog Food Stew.  MMMMMGood.
     
    Rachel Ray:  (Cheerful) This will stretch that one can of Dog Food out to about one week.  Uh, huh, yes you can.
     
    Rachel Ray:  (look of concern)  Is this safe to eat.  Oh yes it is.  The pet food laws passed during the Great Depression are more strict than food eaten by people....humans.  (cheerful) Well, hey, your grandparents ate it.
     
    I had to say this.  Considering we the US Citizens were lied to.  The losses were not 700 Billion USD.  It is more than 60 Trillion USD due to the ISDA. 
     
    Ok, I know it is not funny, people losing their life savings.  It is just that I have to laugh at how stupid this is, me defending against enemies foreign and domestic, fighting these Corporate Wars for Natural Resources (Oil), and being called "U Stupid of America by foreigners that can see how stupid  (hyporcritical) all this is.
     
    Depression and Recession Definitions:
     
    Depression, those that caused the losses and economic crisis, "man up", and jump off the tops of buildings.  Therefore avoid being lynched, criminal prosecution, or being labelled as traitors.
     
    Recession, US rewards those that caused the losses and economic crisis.  So that they can come back again, like GM, Ford, Chrysler, for "mo money". 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s.  Recently September 2008, 25 Billion USD.  Same attitude, same psychology, same people, same results, for Wall Street Corporations (Corporate Board Members are on numerous boards, same people).

    • 3 votes
    #1.11 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:09 PM EST
    rsatinfun

    overall i would expect to see new levels of bailout needed, which means bankruptcy relations without using the word bankruptcy.  america is going to have to learn how to protect it's markets and it's people in a new level of international and national economy building.

      #1.12 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:16 PM EST
      ROY WILSON-336103

      Greg-281912

      "Shane, of course the DOW is manipulated!

      "The DOW 30 is the total of the value of 30 stocks, multiplied by a mysterious factor that NO ONE can explain! I  have an MBA in finance!  Believe me when I say that this number, as well as all numbers having to do with the economy, finance, unemployment, housing, etc., are all manipulated to inflate someone's bank balance."

      If you really have an MBA in Finance (as I do), then you know that the Dow is not all that mysterious, and any "manipulation" is a very minor factor in the broad economic indicators. You would also know that the Dow is a "Leading" economic indicator, so it typically reflects what the economy is likely to do in 6-9 months. Unfortunately, job creation is a "Lagging" economic indicator, meaning any meaningful job creation will likely be 12-15 months down the line (businesses hire only when the economy has already started rebounding and they need more workers to supply the increased demand).  Don't look for a quick turnaround in the job market. Sorry for the reality check.

      • 1 vote
      #1.13 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:18 PM EST
      ROY WILSON-336103

      Unfortunately, Infrastructure projects are very slow to start and even slower to finish. Environmentalist have been so successful in piling on studies and long permit processes that really helpful projects typically take years to go through the process. And even when they do get started, only a small fraction (about 20%) gets built in the first year or so, and much of the cost is not job (labor).

      • 1 vote
      #1.14 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:28 PM EST
      Johan W.F. Holtz

      I am continually amazed at the fabricated financial news put out by MSNBC, what a crock of lies. There are still those who somehow think this is a recession that will bottom out in the 3rd quarter. What are people smoking, it has to be really baaaaaddd.....
      We are at the early stages of a depression, and if the fact that over a 1/2 million people lost their jobs in December doesn't ring a bell, the real job losses coming will make December look like a gentle nudge, comparred to the deluge of losses coming this July. I can appreciate a person having a possitive attitude toward the economic outlook, but being positive is not necessarally real.
      In another 6 months when everyone's fantasy is dissolved, and the reality of the situation sets in, MSNBC will not be talking about recovery, but hyperinflation, massive unemployment, and the continual spectre of world war.....................

      • 3 votes
      #1.15 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:08 PM EST
      ebookout

      Johan I may have to agree with you we are close to going into a depression,but this ones we are going to make the rich richer with our funds so they can ride it out. Maybe when the dollar is worthless than they will also find out who supports this country.

      Hell it only took them a year to admit we were in a recession. By the time they admit we are in a depression it will be over. It will be over before they can figure out what to due.

      • 1 vote
      #1.16 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 7:17 PM EST
      Jekyll

      Shane....Paul Krugman is a clown in the field of economics!! I honestly have no idea how the hell he could have won the Nobel Prize in economics! He is advocating only more spending...more deficit spending and more consumer spending. I have news for ya...that is what got us into this damn mess to begin with and he (and you) feel that our government needs to spend more (which by the way we are broke) and the consumer needs to go out and borrow and spend more and therefore go further into debt...WTF!!! Also FDR's socialistic New Deal prolonged the depression..it is an illusion and fallancy to think that his programs fixed it!!

      I do however agree that we are nowhere near the bottom.....and government intervention will only make it that much worse!!!

        #1.17 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 9:34 PM EST
        Bevos

        Excuse me for breaking in here, but I want everyone to read this.  Is anyone interested in where the economy is REALLY going? Google Thomas D. Schauf and see what he has to say. It is the Worst NIGHTMARE and is yet to come. But we can stop it.

        Our Federal Reserve Bank, is Privately Owned , right? But do you know who it is owned by? England, Ireland, IRAQ,To name a few. Also, 80 Congressmen. The Interest alone on the National debt is in the trillions. thats all we can ever pay. Is the interest. But we can BUY IT BACK for $450 Million. Then we are out of debt.  WE NEED to Band together, and MAKE our Govt. BUY IT BACK.

        • 1 vote
        #1.18 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:19 AM EST
        Reply
        raymond-392453

        the ONLY FREE Market is the BLACK Market-----I got the Cash,You got the Stash. Isn't that HOW "Capitalism" is SUPPOSED to Work?

        • 2 votes
        Reply#2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:45 AM EST
        Shane Ashton

        Yep :)

          #2.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:29 PM EST
          No Party Affiliation

          "Depression, those that caused the losses and economic crisis, "man up", and jump off the tops of buildings. Therefore avoid being lynched, criminal prosecution, or being labeled as traitors."

          David, you do know that the only 2 people that killed themselves by jumping off Wall Street buildings following the Crash were NOT investors nor financial workers? That is just an Urban Legend. Also, there is nothing manly about suicide.

          We here in the US have had the worst unemployment numbers for a year (2008) since 1945, and are no where near bottom, as shown today by Boeing's' new layoff announcement. Let's face it folks, this IS a Depression, and we will likely see deflation soon.

          • 3 votes
          #2.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:14 PM EST
          Tad-401841

          No Party Affliation,

          I believe you are correct. We already are entering a deflationary period which is scaring the poop out of Government who is trying like hell to keep inflation afloat. Not many even want to mention the D word (Depression) but the indications are becoming more apparent with the increasing business and job losses.

          We are still not being told the entire truth about the fragility of our financial and economic situation as usual but PE Obama did give a good clue about it without actually saying the D word. The government bailouts and handouts have been mostly a dismal failure so far and the new stimulus plan may not make a difference except to create further debt. 

            #2.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:29 PM EST
            Reply
            John L Harris, Sr.

            And before the foolish respond, yes, it has been however to say the least this transcends the intellect of humankind and its humanity’s ill-gotten efforts warranting global notification.

             

            Total 2008 job loss: 2.6 million

            Annual loss is biggest since the end of World War II. Payrolls shrink by 524,000 in December, and unemployment rate rises to 7.2%.

            By David Goldman, CNNMoney.com staff writer

            http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/09/news/economy/jobs_december/index.htm

             

            Obama team plans bailout overhaul

            President-elect's economic team considers the expansion of the $700B bailout beyond Wall Street.

            By Jessica Yellin, CNN

            January 9, 2009: 9:40 AM ET

            http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/09/news/economy/bailout_overhaul/index.htm

            A sobering look from humankind will not come about until recognition that there is but One God and apart from Him humankind nor its ‘questionable’ humanity can do nothing, absolutely nothing but fail. There are no stimulus packages that will ever supersede the fate of humankind brought upon it! There are no Presidential or Congressional mandates governing the Will of God or His prophetic Word that humankind and its humanity seeks to silence. However, there is something that can be done unfortunately humankind in its totality will never submit to doing because it would require admitting that humankind is not supreme!

            However, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves, pray, search for me, and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear [their prayer] from heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their country. – 2 Chronicles 7:14

            Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

            Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

            For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

            And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

            And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

            Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

            Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

            Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

            Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [Romans 1:24-32 cf. Leviticus 20 (vv. 9-21), Deuteronomy 22 (vv.5, 22), etc.]

            However, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves, pray, search for me, and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear [their prayer] from heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their country. – 2 Chronicles 7:14

            No matter the argument, translation or interpretation the meaning remains the same!

            “Although our iniquities testify against us, O LORD, act for Your name’s sake! Truly our apostasies have been many, we have sinned against You…why are You like a man dismayed, like a mighty man who cannot save? Yet You are in our midst, O LORD, and we are called by Your name; do not forsake us!” – Jeremiah 14:7-9

            King James Bible
            Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

            Bible in Basic English
            Be not tricked; God is not made sport of: for whatever seed a man puts in, that will he get back as grain.

            Young's Literal Translation
            Be not led astray; God is not mocked; for what a man may sow -- that also he shall reap,

            Geneva Study Bible

            {6} Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

            (6) He commends liberality towards the poor, and first of all chides those who were not ashamed to pretend this and that, and all because they would not help their neighbours, as though they could deceive God. And afterward he compares alms to a spiritual sowing which will have a most plentiful harvest, so that it will be very profitable: and compares being a covetous miser to sowing carnally, from which nothing can be gathered but such things as fade away, and eventually perish.

            People's New Testament

            6:7 Be not deceived. Men often are.

            God is not mocked. They do fancy that God may be mocked. The immutable law of the spiritual kingdom shows that he is not.

            Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. A law not only of the vegetable world, but of our bodies and spirits. Habit is only an illustration of this law. The delirium tremens on the one hand, and the purity of the aged saint on the other are due to the action of this law.

            Geneva Study Bible

            {6} Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

            (6) He commends liberality towards the poor, and first of all chides those who were not ashamed to pretend this and that, and all because they would not help their neighbours, as though they could deceive God. And afterward he compares alms to a spiritual sowing which will have a most plentiful harvest, so that it will be very profitable: and compares being a covetous miser to sowing carnally, from which nothing can be gathered but such things as fade away, and eventually perish.

            People's New Testament

            6:7 Be not deceived. Men often are.

            God is not mocked. They do fancy that God may be mocked. The immutable law of the spiritual kingdom shows that he is not.

            Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. A law not only of the vegetable world, but of our bodies and spirits. Habit is only an illustration of this law. The delirium tremens on the one hand, and the purity of the aged saint on the other are due to the action of this law.

             

            • 1 vote
            Reply#3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:02 PM EST
            No Party Affiliation

            What a bunch of Bunk. Any real theologian will tell you that Yahweh is nothing more than various Hebrew Gods merged into one God by the Levities in an attempt to unite (successfully) the Northern Polytheistic Hebrew Kingdom with the newly monotheistic Southern Hebrew kingdom, much like how Constantine used Christianity to unite the Eastern and Western Roman Empires - one God, one Empire, one Emperor. Quoting books about a made up deity is just plain foolish, and has nothing to do with economics.

            • 3 votes
            #3.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:22 PM EST
            monique-806614

               Hi John keep giving them the word. I'm with you.

            • 1 vote
            #3.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:09 PM EST
            Johan W.F. Holtz

            Nice to see your display of escatology, would you like to see my walnetto etchings also? To ascribe all this as God's omnipotent fate, or humans materialistic obsesion is just plain ludicrous. I believe in God deeply, personally, and in awe, but to be so arrogant as to believe that the creator of this universe cares so deeply and personally for a species of violent, ignorant cretins, is also ludicrous. Oh my, not politically correct am I, and the televangical christians consider this heretical to be burned at the stake, and banned from the pious views, and pulpit of their sacred church........ God and I are laughing, and if you know your bible, there is a passage in revelations, where Jesus says to the church of laodiceans, I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Kind of takes my breath away, and oh, I don't bother God about the disgusting behavior of the human race, as I said before, we laugh a lot................

            • 2 votes
            #3.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:34 PM EST
            John Murphy-812961

            Aside from all the Fire and Brimstone that you are spewing out I would like to say that the Bible does have some some strong conservative roots and messages that would have avoided some of the calamity that we are in. Our Government created this crisis through horrible monetary policy, maintaining a global Empire, along with over regulation of the Private Sector. 

            Free Trade is good and well when not distorted by Government influence. Also the demand in this country that we have had for the past 5 years has been a "phony" demand in which we consumers through Government's free credit policy has driven us to overextending ourselves through consumer spending. Basically the Government lent crazy amounts of cash and credit out which we used to buy crap that we didn't need and which didn't produce anything. And now we as a country are bankrupt.

              #3.4 - Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:59 AM EST
              Reply
              Jim-308563

              I have heard it said that free trade is good. What a bunch of nonsense. We have demand and who supplies? Foreign jobs. How do the American people get jobs out of an unbalanced supply?

              • 2 votes
              Reply#4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:44 PM EST
              Daniel-521176

              Jim, manufacturing's one big concern is cost of labor. If american manufacturers avail of local labor particularly union workers, they would never be able to compete globally. To compete globally, they have to use cheap labor in Asian, South American countries and Canada.....that's just the fact. Because of that the old adage "Proudly Made in the USA" is vanishing, fast. America is left with service oriented businesses. Various states are now competing each other to get whatever is left behind. California for example in the early 90's were deserted by many businesses. California now is $42 billion in the hole and supposedly to run out of money by next month. It is also the California's legislative leaders as one of the highest paid, nationwide. California's prison built to house 100,000 is now occupied by over 170,000 prisoners. They would need over $7 billion just to build new prison facilities excluding the manpower to operate it. The United States of America now competes against Russia for the highest numbers of prisoners in the world. Both of these countries occupies the number 1 and number 2 slot in the world.

              Back to jobs, if workers wanted higher pay, the employer would have to raise the prices of their products. The retailer in turn would have to raise their retail prices which consumers would have to pay. Then the consumers complained and goes back to their employment for more money to augment their budget. Do you get the feeling of running around in circle? As this vicious circle goes around, the value of the dollar goes down, and that would mean we would have to pay more for imported products, like those that comes from China, European countries, etc. Can our legislator fix this? With the american people pressuring our politicians, they in turn would have to balance things in order to survive their jobs, maintain their seats, the power and a sure source of good income. Greed? We are all part of that because of "american dream and lifestyle".

              • 1 vote
              #4.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:10 PM EST
              Buzzorn

              Even if Obama creates jobs, the first in line will be the illegals. Make no mistake. Want to hear a true story. My husband has been in the construction field for 20 years. Employer ran out of work. Mind you they do quailty workmanship. Husband has been looking for work for 3 months. He has been showing up at a particular job site looking for trim and cabinet work on this new development. Yesterday he was told by the supervisor that they were going to hire Mexicans (most probably not legal). So my friends there will only be jobs for the illegals not us Americans. You best be writing your Senators and Congressmen about the illegals. The illegals also contributed to the economy by taking away jobs and sending their money home. Also just think of the resources that has been spent on illegals housing (Obama's Aunt in Boston even), welfare, school, etc. It's hard for me to digest that we will soon be a third world country. Enough is enough.....

              • 6 votes
              #4.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:01 PM EST
              Shane Ashton

              I don't think Obama is snickering in a corner saying my stimulus is going to hire illegals.....
              More so I think it would go like this.

              Send Clinton to Mexico and tell her to whip them into shape and redistribute the wealth and resources...then they won't come here.
              Then prosecute employers who hire illegal workers on the cheap.
              Can't blame Obama when he's not the President yet.
              Sorry to burst your bubble...And i'm sorry about your husband not able to find work, but bashing Obama before he takes office solves nothing.

              • 3 votes
              #4.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:07 PM EST
              david-475776

              I'm all for enforcing our immigration laws and strengthening our borders to stem the tide of illegal immigrants.
              You cannot do that for the same reason that the UN has told Israel and Egypt to open their borders.

              But yes, I do agree.  That is why they are immigration LAWS (not optional, like an Act), and that is why they are called ILLEGAL immigrants.  Do not worry the US Economy will get worse and the ILLEGAL immigrants will not have an incentive to come here.

              • 5 votes
              #4.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:22 PM EST
              cajunv

              I know this may sound a bit upbeat for you all here,but here in Louisiana our unemployment in LafayetteLa is at 3%,my husband is a welder and they can't fill all the jobs they need,many nursing jobs are needed,administative etc,all over the place employers are looking for skilled labor,so come on down the weather is fine,and so is the economy,and the food and family can't be beat,(yeah i know we get a hurricane or two)but hey who dosen't have something:)

              • 3 votes
              #4.5 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:53 PM EST
              Shane Ashton

              Right on Cajun.....anytime someone complains...i'll send em to you :)

              • 1 vote
              #4.6 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:14 PM EST
              CC57

              Just a little story here.

              Today I saw the window washers on top of the building getting ready to clean the windows. I went to lunch. When I came back they were on break in the building. All immigrants!!!! So when I hear the bunk that they come in and do jobs Americans don't want to do, I just laugh. Business is looking to make as much money as possible. It's called GREED.

              • 3 votes
              #4.7 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:13 PM EST
              John Murphy-812961

              Jim you state a good question and in simple terms you don't get jobs from an unbalanced supply. First we have to deal with the fact that our "DEMAND" currently is PHONY as hell. Through the federal government easy credit manipulation along with shady lending and well the real estate market in general led to PHONY wealth through "equity".  People bought houses they couldn't afford and then borrowed against their houses and bought crap they didn't need...boats, motorcycles, clothes etc. So "DEMAND" is phony but the "supply" side is REAL. Meaning we long ago started transforming our economy into a service sector economy which doesn't produce anything and have driven out our manufacturing industries. Remember real wealth comes from savings and productivity...not the act of spending. All the countries that actually make stuff (real wealth)  are overseas and  once the PHONY DEMAND in America is over...which is happening now...Countries are starting to realize that the American Economy was phony...meaning the economy was based on consumer spending(Keynesian Economist)...consumer spending these last couple of years was based on PHONY wealth from the Real Estate Market among other things....and Real Estate  got this easy credit/Debt from the Federal Reserve...which gets its money through taxing us and borrowing against our taxes from other countries. Basically we have been financing our spending spree through debt and have conned other countries out of REAL products/SUPPLY that they have made with no real intention on paying them back. These countries are going to be stunned at first once they fined out that they have been producing all this stuff for a phony demand and immediately stop lending us credidt...but they will soon realize that all though America is a PHONY economy their economies are REAL.  Instead of producing stuff and giving it to us to consume...they will consume it themselves because they have been saving all this time and will enjoy a higher standing of living and rightly so. We have depressed all the world's economies for a long time so we could have a higher standard of living. We have to rebuild "PRODUCTIVITY" and start the process of "RE-INDUSTRIALIZATION" by investing in capital that Produces STUFF of value...i.e. bring back the manufacturing sector and get rid alot of this service economy that is based on discretionary spending. 

              The most important thing to remember is that GOVERNMENT manipulation of the monetary supply started this whole chain of events and a recession is the market's way of correcting the imbalances between supply and demand. The bust cycle is the medicine we need to endure in order to trim the fat and move to a healthier economy. Right now there are people employed in job sectors which because of the PHONY economy should not even exist...i.e. mortgage agents and every lawyer lol 

                #4.8 - Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:22 AM EST
                Reply
                Jim-308563

                Now we don't have demand. We have wants and needs but can't afford them.

                • 4 votes
                Reply#5 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:47 PM EST
                John Murphy-812961

                Jim- we will still have the demand for the basic necessities... but big ticket items for sure will come down in price while toilet paper and raises will rise to ridiculous levels. Commodities will be going up all relative the U.S. Dollar. I guess what I am trying to say is that Government is further debasing the value of the dollar and when it "bails out" companies or creates "stimulus" plans...just replace the words with INFLATION. All they are doing is printing more money into circulation which debases the currency that is already in circulation which decreases your purchasing power. But you can only debase it so much before it eventually collapses and with Government maintaining a foreign policy of 1 trillion a year along with "bailouts" and "stimulus" packages which ultimately are taxed from you...because the Government's only income comes from the taxes it takes from you. Basically the dollar is collapsing as I write and you will see commodities and hard assests...gold, silver go up. If you have dollar denominated assets please get out of them now and protect your wealth. That also means getting into foreign stocks that pay dividends ....basically anything that has to do with the U.S. dollar is toxic. Protect your money.

                  #5.1 - Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:36 AM EST
                  Reply
                  Jim-805552

                  Greed.

                  If all these employers would trim "top down" when necessary, reduce exorbitant salaries, curtail all bonuses, etc. there would be far less jobloss. Thus...retaining the workforce base, keeping those employees as consumers and helping the economy to recover.

                  It is sad to see the elite 2-5% of the wealthy further cripple this national economy to preserve personal wealth. Asking for government assistance with funds that dont exist is a sad heritage for our children. Our economy can recover where all can prosper and restor thier lives...even those 2-5%.

                  Is it so hard to understand that the sacrifice is far worth the effort?

                  • 4 votes
                  Reply#6 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:55 PM EST
                  little jonny chokin on fumes

                  yellow,i worked construction for years,even worked on a buffalo farm as a white man,i would consider myself pretty tough,one time i shot a nail in my hand,pulled it out and went back to work because it was just in the fleshy meaty part of my lower thumb,what i am saying is ,do you really think these retail and service people working at malls and restraunts can build effing roads????do you think the asses that got us into this mess will take their ties off when they dont have jobs and work a pick or shovel????lmao!!!!i think one day after smelling that asphault and puking they would never come back-we are a nation of winers and if its anyone that knows it,trust m e an american who has lived here for fourty years,you cant go out your house without getting sued,getting your feet runover by the fat people in their electric carts at the malls

                   

                   

                   here's what we need and why we will plunge into a worse depression than the last.we can pump trillions of dollars into the endless hole call america,we might as well burn the money because we dont need a financial bailout-

                    we need a moral bailout that will only come from strong leaders in washington,our schools,from our entertainers and thats why i guarantee a major depression because we are an evil race of people.do you know what an infidel is??those muslums call us infidels,it means without religion,and if thats not obvious.i am not really a christian anymore but i learned a lot in church,even if your not christian the ten commandments are good rules to live by for ourselves and others.we have walked all over and perverted freedom in this country,voting down the death penalty for child rapists????????that idiot who ran that nasdaq scheme is at home in his nice place,probably because he knows to much about other congressman who got kickbacks-the depression is going to happen and there is nothing we can do as one after another congressman and mayors and senators fall because of their evil deeds,there is a bottom,its called hunger and famine and disease in america-the new thrid world!~

                  • 6 votes
                  Reply#7 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:56 PM EST
                  Shane Ashton

                  So sad and yet true...I'm with you...i've buckled down for the long haul able to survive off the grid. I'm willing to make those sacrifices....too bad the rest of the country are hanging on to a lifestyle that won't exist in 4 years

                  • 1 vote
                  #7.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:08 PM EST
                  david-475776

                  The shear definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  And yet, everyone continually elects Lawyers that turned into Professional Politicians.  Do you really think Lawyers do this for ALTRUISTIC reasons.  NOPE.  Money, Power.  And everyone still does this knowing the Politicians motives.

                  Please do not preach ethics, morals, norms, mores, that is NOT what is inherent for Lawyers that have turned into Professional Politicians.  Those subjects are the concerns for Philosophers, the mortal enemies of Lawyers.  Before you state, Socratic Method, Lawyers only use a twisted version to win their cases, briefs, debates, orations, by any means.  It was the Professional Politicians that used the Socratic Method to prosecute the inventor of the Socratic Method, Socrates, either commit suicide or life imprisonment, for trying to get rid of corrupt Politicians, and as a self protection measure the Politicians claimed that he was "corrupting the minds of the youth".  Lawyers, "ends justify the means", truth not important, "irrelevant"if that truth interferes with winning, motive Money/Power.  Philosophers, "means justify the calculated ends", truth most important, motive Altruistic.

                    #7.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:30 PM EST
                    Mr. Rogers.

                    you cant go out your house without getting sued,getting your feet runover by the fat people in their electric carts at the malls

                    ROFL... Seriously.. I am laughing my brains out at this one.... Funny... but true and sad at the same time...

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:05 PM EST
                    Johan W.F. Holtz

                    Well littlejohnnie you hit it on the nail, and by the way there is an eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt not despoil the earth, or the life therein", most of your bible thumpers wouldn't even acknowledge it, but aside from that, can you imagine those pencil pushing dweebs, trying to grade a road, lay pipe at a certain depth, running at a certain slope, have to laugh real hard, and you can bet the government will do nothing about the illegals........

                      #7.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:44 PM EST
                      xrayspex

                      cheer up a little.ljcof.We have a Democratic soon to be President who is already pissing off  his party and getting approval from some of the Republicans.I don't feel we are an evil nation or I certainly wouldn't have returned to the Military.We have a lot of serious issues many of which are amplified in Washington,and some of the mistakes of the past 20 years need to be addressed (NAFTA,failure to pass Term Limits,financial markets gone wild) but I think we can turn this around.What will it take?Elbow grease and less greed.

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.5 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 6:36 PM EST
                      Reply
                      little jonny chokin on fumes

                      america,the new third world,we let the third world in,we will become the third world

                      • 4 votes
                      Reply#8 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:58 PM EST
                      Daniel-521176

                      little johnny chokin on fumes.....you do not know anything about living in a third world country. are we far from it? if our incoming leaders and legislators do not put their acts together, it is possible that the Russian scholar who wrote that this country might breakup into three may be right. I do hope he is wrong. I would not want this country to break up like the old Soviet Union. But ordinary people like us should learn to unite instead of attacking each other. Our efforts should be positive under this very negative circumstances. what do you say?

                      • 1 vote
                      #8.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:18 PM EST
                      Reply
                      maddog-756501

                      wow-the B.S. never seems to stop with the so called economic geniuses.the same crowd that never saw this catastrophy coming.the artificial wealth that the stock market offers is the basis for the current mess and until there is a realistic method to assess true value nothing will change.this reality has occured countless times yet the idiotic continued pursuit of achieving wealth in this manner is neverending.the same people ALWAYS get the short end of this travesty and those that control the market always come out with little or no impact on their financial status.greed is the primary motivation that drives many of these individuals and there is no consideration for the effect that such behavior has on the general population.as far as the economic recovery that is alluded to any moron understands that until there is stability in the employment sector the so called recovery will only effect the minute portion of the population that has the financial capability to endure the current meltdown.the so called recession-which is a depression-is not going to correct itself until there is a realistic model to work from.wall street and the corporate world are the two primary forces that have brought us to this point.until a stable foundation to base our economy on is implemented the situation will not change or improve.the system is incapable of providing stability that is essential to achieving economic turnaround.the uniqeness of this situation in relation to every downturn that has occured before is that the resources to initiate a turnaround no longer exist.there is no manufacturing sector to sustain a prolonged recovery as well as the lack of resources needed to facillitate restoring a solid foundation to build on.where are the jobs going to come from?the end of a vicious corporate march to sustaining profitability has concluded.there are little -if any-available areas to trim so the bottom line can be fed.now the corporations are looking for the government to bail them out of their jointly created mess.giving 350 billion with NO accountability is an action that supports the widely held view that their is little interest in assisting the general population.it is amazing that the media will not ask tough REALISTIC questions of the leaders that continue to ignore the reality that this mess is incapable of being addressed without honesty and candor.continuing to chase after the status qou only makes the chances of stopping the damage from happening improbable.the lack of understanding that almost all of these people suffer from is due to their insulation from the realities that affect the majority of americans.until they experience the same difficulties the rest of us endure i expect there to be no change in the approach they use to tackle the burgeoning catastrophy.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#9 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:17 PM EST
                      George-313012

                      Some have said (and I agree) what this country needs is a 1930's-style depression.

                      Bring on the soop lines.  Bomb California.  Impeach Bill Clinton (again).  Re-elect Nixon (dead or alive)  

                      • 2 votes
                      #9.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:46 PM EST
                      diesel9

                      Let me pack my things and get out of calif before U start your bomb run.......bomber.....

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:53 PM EST
                      maddog-756501

                      diesel9-come over to az.-we still have realistic gun control laws.you can arm yourself with little governmental interference and then you can have a small measure of control in defending yourself.

                      • 4 votes
                      #9.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:02 PM EST
                      F-U-hypochristians

                      I own guns and believe in the right to bear arms. But the right to bear arms was actually intended as a defense against the government. Who are we kidding with the right to bear arms joke? If I and a few friends went down to the Flagstaff city hall, what do you think would happen? 

                      • 2 votes
                      #9.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:05 PM EST
                      Chick-379869

                      F-U-hypo,

                      You'd be labeled a "terrorist" and hauled away, never to be seen again, with no legal representation and held without charge.

                      OR...they'd parade you in front of the media, a labeled terrorist, and prosecute you, put you in jail, and use you as an "example"

                      • 1 vote
                      #9.5 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:57 PM EST
                      John Murphy-812961

                      Mad dog--- I agree with you except on the point of your assessment of the two primary forces which were responsible. You stated Wall Street and the Corporate World...that is not true. They are players in this macabre sporting event but they didn't make the rules. The Federal Reserve manipulated the money supply and created the artificial playing field while Wall Street and the Corporate World are like players enhanced with steroids. Government manipulation of the monetary supply along with a Interventionist Foreign Policy have bankrupted this country. 

                        #9.6 - Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:46 AM EST
                        Reply
                        diesel9

                        I hope we all learn a good lesson from this mess,greed in only good for the greedy........

                        • 3 votes
                        Reply#10 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:26 PM EST
                        mel in oregon

                        until america's structural problems are solved, a stimulus package is like spitting into the wind. when the last tax reduction went into effect under bush, all that happened is people bought chinese crap from wallmart and put away a few bucks for a rainy day. japan tried 7 times in the 90s to restore their economy through economic stimulus, and it failed every damn time. fdr had the wpa & cccs & it helped a few people but did nothing to change the depression. so obama in typical american fashion tries to reinvent the wheel. what needs to be done is obvious, but barack is not going to do it. cut military spending at least in half( i'd like to see it cut 90%, & yes i served as have all able bodied indians who have shed more blood for america than anyone else). you must get rid of the lobbies coming from corporations or we continue down the same downward slope. the problem is we don't make anything anymore except weapons. that's part of the reason we have unemployment in real figures at about 15%. this includes those that have given up on trying to find a job, & those that can only get part time employment. you have to get america interested in education with good schools for all. look i'm cherokee & came from a poor family with a lot of alcoholic relatives. i worked my way through college & grad school with a 3.5 gpa. i've managed to do fairly well financially with a net worth of 8 figures. i say this not to toot my own horn, but simply this to say that the key to success is a degree, and more than that not a liberal arts degree. conservation of oil, by stringent fuel standards is a must, along with development of all alternatives like wind, solar, ethanol etc. and how can america ever save us from economic catastrophe as long as jobs are going overseas? that's a tremendous priority, but again i doubt if obama is up to the challenge of confronting wallmart & the military-industrial complex. his appointments indicate he really doesn't understand what should be done. 

                        • 6 votes
                        Reply#11 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:31 PM EST
                        Johnny92078

                        A nation without a strong military, is a nation that can be run over!!! Where did you serve?? The walmart cafeteria as a security guard? Indian casinos? what is your MOS? And a final note What would you do if you were President?

                        apache/irish here.......

                          #11.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:20 PM EST
                          david-475776

                          mel in oregon your service to this country and education is commendable.  However, seeing first hand since the 1970s (Vietnam Era, LRRP/Ranger).  Currently US Military Officer, came up through the ranks, helping villagers rebuild schools, homes in Afghanistan (involved in "Middle East" since 1981). 

                          You know what would happen in a Reduction In Force, RIF.  First, what happens to all those former US Military Personnel.  Unemployed.  Second, Base Realignment and Closures, with the cities around the former bases sucking wind economically.  Source of steady continuous State income.  Third, reduction or closure of Government Owned Factories and Plants that build the US Military Equipment, (thousands in each State Unemployed Civilians) due to the lack of Civilian Manufacturing capability and Outsourcing.  And due to all the Outsourcing by GM, Ford, Chrysler and the "Buy Only US Products, Goods, and Services" Laws that the US Military must adhere to the Obese 3 lost significant contracts since all their parts are made in Mexico, Canada, China.  So more Unemployment.  Fourth, a decrease in US Military HUMIT, Human Intelligence, capabilities after a previous Reduction In Force, causing an Intelligence Blackout in certain regions.  Fifth, due to Reductions In Forces, a significant loss of personnel that would fight the predicted (since end of Cold War, 1990s) high intensity Guerrilla Warfare Wars.  This resulted in the need for US Contractors for logistics support, that was previously the mission of US Military Personnel and the start of US Contractor Private Security Corporations, that was previously the mission of US Military Special Warfare.

                          Notice how most are comparing the high Unemployment rates based on after War numbers.  This has occurred after every War.  This is just a cause and effect equaling certain results.

                          As far as the other subjects like oil conservation, fuel standards, alternative energy, the Political Reality is that the Lobbists will prevent anything that is Really Effective.  After all this is "Corporate America" and the Lobbists pay for the Politicians "Lunch Money".

                          As far as education, which is a sore topic for me.  I have multiple degrees.  I also realize that due to the US low standard of education, many of those degrees are worthless in comparison from someone that graduated from India.  And throwing more money at this is not going to do squat.  Why because the US has some of the highest paid Teachers in comparison to some of the third world countries that are acheiving significant results.  So what we are doing is rewarding failure, just like the Bailout Babies.  Why, Teachers Union and Lobbists.  How powerful are they, millions to prevent an invasion of there privacy spent on lawyers, so that they do not have to pee in a cup.  Something, that the US Military should not have to do also, if it is a case of invasion of privacy.  Really, what is the difference, I am currently helping the villagers rebuild their schools and homes, and sometimes teach (only what is preapproved by the Afghan villagers and Islamic Counsel), and was an instructor/evaluator/course writer in numberous countries and US Military Schools.  This is why I can be critical about US Teachers and the Teachers Unions.

                          • 2 votes
                          #11.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:25 PM EST
                          Johan W.F. Holtz

                          Was there, went through the same, agree totally, you are an A-1 American, living the dream brother, good luck.....

                            #11.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:50 PM EST
                            John Murphy-812961

                            Mel I agree with you on the military industrial complex and the concept of re-industrialization of America because real wealth is savings and productivity not consumer spending...I disagree with you on the degree part and the fact you don't mention the monetary manipulation by the Federal Reserve. First off there are alot of degree's out there and honestly they are pieces of paper that don't necessarily qualify you to think...but education is important. More importantly we need to get critical thinking skills out there and go from there. Second the Federal Reserve distortion of the money supply has debased our dollar along with "STIMULUS" packages...replace stimuls with "INFLATION" because thats what it is...pouring more money into circulation debasing the current money supply.  Couple that with over $1trillion dollars spent maintaining our overseas Empire and bailouts...well lets just say the dollar is done. You stated that you have savings in the 8 figure range...well let's just hope you are smart enough not to be in dollar denominated assets...hopefully you protect the wealth you have worked hard for and shore yourself up by immediately getting out of the dollar and into gold, silver, commodities along with foreign stocks... foreign stocks that pay dividends would be the most attractive and because their value is being depressed by people selling stocks and assets to meet their margin calls on the real estate & financial collapse you could make a killing. Please go watch Peter Schiff on youtube and look up his company EuroPacific. I would hate for any American to get caught up in losing the wealth they have accumulated from the crash of the dollar.

                              #11.4 - Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:03 AM EST
                              Reply
                              oldcommmonsense

                              We have little to no manufacturing in the country to "pull" us out of this DEPRESSION.

                              If Obama wants to "create" jobs, then he needs to redirect NASA to energy and not outerspace. Recount all the jobs, products etc that was created over the years when Kennedy formed NASA.

                              I say, eliminate Wall Street, that process is nothing more than gambling. It has no real relavence to business success or failure. Look at all privately held companies, ie; Cargill.

                              Wall Street caused this mess and it is tanking the whole economy. We have become a service structured economy with the biggest employer to be insurance/banking/investments......and look who took the first hit! How many of the 2+ million jobs were banking jobs?

                              • 6 votes
                              Reply#12 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:33 PM EST
                              Kimberly-795986

                              Where, or where, is something being done about stopping the giving of tax incentives to take manufacturing jobs overseas?  Obama promised to stop this.  When our jobs, including our security armament manufacturing jobs, come back home, there will be more money put back into our system and not foreign governments.

                              Kimberly

                               

                              • 3 votes
                              Reply#13 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:33 PM EST
                              oldcommmonsense

                              Clinton started all of that and Obama is nothing more than a Clinton puppet! Look whom he appointed to all the top spots. I'm surprised ole Billy hasnt been appointed to anything yet, but Im positive thats on the way.  All of Billys donations came from foreign countries....can you guess why?

                              • 2 votes
                              #13.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:38 PM EST
                              diesel9

                              Thats a great idea kim but with the current system of gov its not gonna happen we need a gov that cares more about its own people...... wee need to keep the cash here at home....

                              • 2 votes
                              #13.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:49 PM EST
                              Shane Ashton

                              I don't know why don't you ask Bush why all his donations have come from the Saudi and Big Oil

                              • 2 votes
                              #13.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:51 PM EST
                              Johan W.F. Holtz

                              This will only stop when we as a people pull on one rope, unite, and get rid of the scum running this great nation.....................

                                #13.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 6:01 PM EST
                                Reply
                                MichaelC-434747

                                What is truly the net effect of "massive stimulus" when the various visa programs let in approx. 1 million new foreign job seekers each year?  It seems without a corresponding change in the foreign worker policy, this is all for naught.

                                • 3 votes
                                Reply#14 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:36 PM EST
                                oldcommmonsense

                                Well, I have to go load some more bullets while you'al discuss this depression thing. Hang on to your seat, because the slope is going to get steeper.

                                • 3 votes
                                Reply#15 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:45 PM EST
                                Shane Ashton

                                Didn't want to copy paste...but this post is gettin more response than I thought.

                                The nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman so far is the only common sense guy out there claiming that there will be no recovery until personal and federal debt is significantly reduced.

                                And George....95% of the population believes that the New Deal pulled us out of the Depression. I don't understand why the remaining 5% like you has a voice. Personally, I think the New Deal worked until they decided to balance the budget. Sadly it was WWII that saved us. I think Obama wants to combine New Deal era government spending, with WWII mobilization. Instead of making cars, Detroit should be building electric trains and hybrid busses IMMEDIATELY. Then instead of all the brainless jobs of parking attendants and food servers, we should be funding green agriculture that doesn't utilize oil for pesticide, natural gas for fertilizer.

                                And my own pet peeve, legalize marijuana for industrial fuel, paper, clothing, and plastics.

                                So far its been the Democratic Congress who has held back advancement YES, but you have to realize there are 3 forces at work in the Congress not just two.
                                1. Conservative, right wing nut jobs
                                2. Democrat and Republican Corporate douchebags
                                3. Progressive minded liberals
                                Guess who makes up the majority.....the Congressmen and women who received money from the military industrial complex, Big Pharma, Oil Companies, Bankers, and Insurance. This is why we need public funding of elections....to get quality candidates who are paid for their vote ONLY by the American people. I think we should make ALL lobbying gifts ILLEGAL and only allow a congressional candidate to use a percentage of the Federal Election Fund.

                                • 2 votes
                                Reply#16 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:45 PM EST
                                oldcommmonsense

                                I totally agree! Thats the only way, other than a revolution, to get "our" demorcacy back!

                                • 2 votes
                                #16.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:50 PM EST
                                George-313012

                                Shane - thanks for the plug.  The national debt went form 50% of GDP in 1940 to 95% of GDP in 1950.  Obama plan will put us at 80% - so there is no room for a WWII-type recovery.

                                I read today that Congressional Dems plan to give a huge tax refund to large corporate home builders like Toll Brothers and DR Horton - nothing to small builders.  Congress should be impeached.  Harry Reid is running in 2010 - let him be the first to go.

                                No one including Obama can even start to explain how their plan will help economy - nothing more than government jobs (welfare).  As to NASA they took all the credit but it was Rocketdyne and other industry than got us to the moon.

                                • 1 vote
                                #16.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:53 PM EST
                                Shane Ashton

                                I noticed you didn't comment on anything else...does that mean you agree?

                                • 1 vote
                                #16.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:56 PM EST
                                It's all my fault

                                George-313012

                                I worked at Rocketdyne from '83 - '94. Loved it. Now that was a real job. EDL.

                                  #16.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:13 PM EST
                                  Carlos Toadvine

                                  Shane, i disagree with your assertion that 95% believe the New Deal worked I have seen stats that say over half of the historians (who in my view were taught the new deal worked) agree with you.  Unfortunately employment, growth and stock market analysis don't buttress your claim.  I do agree that congress is the problem with any potential meaningful change.  I would also say that while mass transit options are important and viable for larger cities they would be hard pressed to make a big impact on the rural areas. I believe all members of congress and the senate should be thrown out every election cycle only then will the entrenched specials interests lose some of their influence. 

                                    #16.5 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:23 PM EST
                                    George-313012

                                    Shane - yea I agree.  I think wind power can work.  GE would love to sell turbines.

                                    It's all my fault - also agree with you - "it is your fault".  We have to blame someone.  Rocketdyne had a lousy hydrogen pump on the Saturn - eventually replaced with PW pump where I worked (1960-1964)

                                     

                                      #16.6 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:33 PM EST
                                      Shane Ashton

                                      We just ignored the facts to keep the good times rolling...we're only human.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #16.7 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:48 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      sneilarreal

                                      Last night, I watched an interview with an economist who predicts a collapse of paper currency and he made a strong argument for that happening.

                                      • 4 votes
                                      Reply#17 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST
                                      Shane Ashton

                                      he's a smart guy...however that's when the Amero dollar gets introduced we become the North American Union....not a desired outcome in my book.

                                      • 6 votes
                                      #17.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:55 PM EST
                                      billt-359761

                                      But that is their desired outcome.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:52 PM EST
                                      Un-Common Common Sense

                                      You're correct, there's a lot of theories out their that this whole mess was intentionally orchestrated to allow for the North American Union and The Amero! There is also proof in statements made by Mexico ( Vincente Fox) and Canada that this was there intention. They knew the American people wouldn't go for it so they intentionally flooded the US with Illegals because they would support it. Sounds far fetched but our government has acted so ignorant I wouldn't rule out anything at this point!

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #17.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:11 PM EST
                                      Carlos Toadvine

                                      NAFTA'spromise was to open the borders and create a more interactive continent.  Looks to me like we are heading that way. I wonder what we will face if we take responsibilityfor all of the crushing poverty south of the border. I think that's the plan, cheap labor, bigger market another expansion in the economy and government.  

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:29 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      JEHumphreysDeleted
                                      Grandma-471230

                                      It still means that approx. 93% of the nation is still at work.

                                        Reply#19 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:12 PM EST
                                        I.M.Curious

                                        Let's look on the bright side.This will likely solve the illegal immigrant situation.Americans,desperate for jobs will no longer turn their noses up at the 10 buck an hour jobs immigrants often labor at in the fields.

                                          Reply#20 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:13 PM EST
                                          Chick-379869

                                          Unless the laws have changed, Producton Agriculture minimum wage is much lower than the regualr minimum wage. I doubt the guys picking fruit/veggies in the fields are making $10/hr. They probably get paid by the bushel

                                            #20.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:46 PM EST
                                            Reply
                                            jOHN b.lURVEY

                                            I cannot believe the incompetence that runs rampant through the ranks of our elected officials. Some of the problems can be dealt with quickly, even as quickly as today. All foreign aide is suspended immediately and until such time as we can get our economy under control. Instead of funding the scumbags that have bled their corporations dry, at our expense, we will force them into bankruptcy the same as any other operators that destroy their own businesses. Return those billions to the taxpayer and you will see some spending going on. Probably enough spending to save the thousands of small businesses that are presently in dire straits. The economy would undergo and instant reversal. The influx of billions of tax unincumbered dollars would spark the economy, put millions of the unimployed back to work and stimulate the establishment of new businesses. The next issue that must be dealt with is long term entitlement programs. Guess what, you miserable parasites that have lived off the public dole for generations, It's over. From now on if you collect you will work for it. You will clean the trash off the public roadways, you will be taught tp paint and generally maintain public properties, and you will clean up the blighted parts of cities all over this country. You will arrive at your work destination by public transportation. No more taking a taxi to the welfare office to pick up your check while the taxi waits with the meter running. Oh yes, folks. I have witnessed all of the games that you play with my money.That should put some billions/year back into the public coffers. The next and largest problem is the Congress. They have to go and make room for serious managers. The Congress only works a few days out of any month. The rest of the time they spend cavorting with lobbyists and prostitues (same animal), dining out in opulent surroundings, free travel to foreign countries for family and friends, dodging F.B.I. investigations into corruption because the F.B.I. are ordered to leave you alone (where is J.Edgar when you need him). Last but not least. My gut feeling tells me that voters are morons. They do no care about qualified representation if you simply look at who they elect. Former professional football players, comedians, and other idiots. What is wrong with mass. voters. They insist on re-electing the sole unindicted murder in the Congress, term after term. Kennedy must think they are crazy too. The voters in that State are either all on drugs or they are simply stupid. I rest my case.  

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#21 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:21 PM EST
                                            Johnny92078

                                            Well Said and true to the point. I'm voting you into congress:) btw the voters are probably illegal aliens,, that is why our government wants amnesty, for people that will never understand the US constitution.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #21.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:11 PM EST
                                            George-313012

                                            Starting with bootleg Joe, the Kennedy's are all crooks.  So now the Dems plan another one to replace Hillery.  How phony can you get - Kennedys  steal from the middle class and give to the welfare bums - so they can pretend to care about something other than themselves.

                                              #21.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:47 PM EST
                                              Shane Ashton

                                              No they steal from the rich and give it to poor and working class Americans.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #21.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:55 PM EST
                                              Chick-379869

                                              As far as the welfare recipients go, most states have welfare to work programs. The recipients in my state do either work at the welfare offices and government buildings, lerning clerical skills, or they go to some form of schooling. Also, since we are in the electronic age, food stamps are given in a debit type card and checks are direct deposited or mailed. People don't go to pick up thier checks anymore.

                                              I was on welfare for a short time back in the early 90's and I had to do all those things I listed. My check was sent in the mail. A whole whopping 265.00/month (with 2 children). My food stamp allocation was slightly larger than my check. Yes folks, I was rolling in the bucks then....lol. But it helped me get on my feet at a time when I needed it.  Did I enjoy it? No. But I'm not ashamed of using it.

                                              Alot of overhaul had been done years ago on the welfare system. Most states have a limit on how long you can get it (2 years in my state). The days of the "welfare queen" have been over for a long time. It could be differnet in other states, since its a state run program. But I get tired of seeing people point fingers at the poorest in our nation and blame them for all that is wrong here. I admit there are people that take advantage of the system, there always will be (like all the big banks and thier CEOs)

                                              As an RN, a large draw on our economy I see,  is the massive amounts of people trying to get on disability for everything from depression to fibromyalgia. It's becoming an epidemic in this country.

                                                #21.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:07 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                busylizzy

                                                When I saw the news story today regarding the layoffs at the WWF, I knew then it was over for all of us!

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#22 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:26 PM EST
                                                roland-635021

                                                The government should invest in Kadsu. Kadsu is one good source of ethanol, use to power electricity, automobile, machines, generators, etc. The country has unlimited supply of Kadsu, planted around the countryside and can be easily be grown and use. This will help the economy.

                                                  Reply#23 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:30 PM EST
                                                  Shane Ashton

                                                  Marijuana has a higher glucose quotient that Kadsu...lets plant that all over the place.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #23.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:33 PM EST
                                                  It's all my fault

                                                  Shane,
                                                  And can be used to make clothing and has oil that can be used in the heat/cold vaccuum of space. I do believe that paper can be made from it as well.
                                                  Plus no THC with the plants that have been altered. But a few people may plant the real stuff in the fields, can't be having that.
                                                  Let them get their buzz from the killer drug lords of South America. Over 5000 people killed in Mexico's border towns last year and many in our Country.

                                                  What a freaking joke.

                                                    #23.2 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:07 PM EST
                                                    Shane Ashton

                                                    Why can't we be having that.....God put Marijuana on this planet for us to use...in all its forms.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #23.3 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:13 PM EST
                                                    It's all my fault

                                                    That was some of the common sense thinking I hoped was coming. Instead it's looking worse!

                                                    "Home grown is the way it should be"

                                                    Neil Young.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #23.4 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:18 PM EST
                                                    roland-635021

                                                    Shane, Kadsu is not marijuana. Kadsu is a plant ones fermented can produce ethanol. Once harvested, it grow's back in a few days.

                                                      #23.5 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:25 PM EST
                                                      George-313012

                                                      Let's start growing marijuana and smuggle it into Afghanistan.  

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #23.6 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:53 PM EST
                                                      Shane Ashton

                                                      Great plan!

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #23.7 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:56 PM EST
                                                      roland-635021

                                                      Shane, thats impeccably i-n-s-h-a-n-e...

                                                        #23.8 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:08 PM EST
                                                        F-U-hypochristians

                                                        I agree that it should be legalized. Well, it ALMOST is here in California :)

                                                        But yeah, smuggling into Afganistan is a funny idea!!

                                                          #23.9 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:13 PM EST
                                                          Shane Ashton

                                                          Lets recap why its illegal...going back to 1937
                                                          Pulp paper and tobbaco industry lobbies to get it made illegal.
                                                          Zionist, Prohibitionist head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics Anslinger lobbies each state to make it illegal because it is destroying the youth of America.
                                                          LaGuardia commision refutes governments claims..Anslinger has the report discredited.
                                                          Fast forward to 1970...Nixon Commissions Blue Ribbons panel. Panel comes back and says Marijuana is not harmful and should be decriminialized immediately to prevent white middle class children from filling up the jails. What does Nixon do...create the DEA and passed Controlled Substances Act making it as "dangerous" as Heroin
                                                          1976-77 Jimmy Carter lobbies to repeal the ban and leave the states to decide their own laws on the subject...right wing media digs up dirt on his drug czar forcing him to resign.
                                                          80s....nuff said
                                                          2009 Obama has the common sense to repeal the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 and amend the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 removing all federal criminal penalities for smoking pot and growing and cultivating. Encourages Phillip morris and RJ Reynolds to replace their tobacco fields with industrial grade hemp for use in plastics, paper, clothing and fuel.

                                                            #23.10 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 4:53 PM EST
                                                            Chick-379869

                                                            Let them get their buzz from the killer drug lords of South America. Over 5000 people killed in Mexico's border towns last year and many in our Country.

                                                            No. The government and pharmacutical companies would rather have people getting their buzz off Prescription meds instead.

                                                            I was discussing this just last night with my family. Hemp could be used to fire up our dying textile industry in this country. Of course it would take time to get it going to that level, but it could work. Also, they could produce marijuana cigarettes and tax, sell, and restrict them like they do liquor.  I don't smoke pot, but their are millions in this country that do. People talk about overcrowded prisons, alot of them are in for possession of pot. That could free the overcrowding in our prison system as well.

                                                            People feel pot is an evil sibstance. Well, imo, its no more evil than liquor, Xanax, Paxil, Klonopin, or any of the other legal mind altering substances out there.

                                                            Also, another topic that people don't want to discuss, tax churches. If they can influence what is done in our polical arena, then they should pay taxes like everyone else. Most of the churches in my area run day care centers. They are making tons of money, tax free. That need to stop.

                                                              #23.11 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:19 PM EST
                                                              It's all my fault

                                                              Chick,
                                                              Yep, it's a darn shame all the BS out there. We see easy answers and then when we peel back the facade we find that our answers were cutting into someone's action so the answer is the problem.
                                                              So they kill it.
                                                              So far air is free. I think.

                                                                #23.12 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 5:50 PM EST
                                                                Chick-379869

                                                                Air is free, so far. If they could tax it I'm sure they would have already...lol.

                                                                Kudzu is another thing that could be utilized. This stuff is EVERYWHERE down in the south, highly invasive and grows very quickly. It was brought here from Japan, I believe, decades ago, to stop errosion of embankments on the sides of the highways and roads. It has since exploded in numbers and is highly abundant.

                                                                Biodiesel was a good idea in concept. But now as they clear away more and more forests, to plant corn, and the price of corn is going up as a food source, we are seeing the impact of shortages around the world of corn for consumption. Greed turns its ugly head once again I guess.

                                                                It seems that whenever someone comes up with a good concept, it gets squashed somewhere down the line by the powers that truely run things.

                                                                  #23.13 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 6:38 PM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Don Stockstill

                                                                  I think that now people finally realize that we have a bit of a problem in this country. Our love of money and physical possessions has finally gotten to us. Unless we change our attitude toward God and each other, this nation, and the rest of the world for that matter are headed down the tubes. Everyone in this world wants to have an abundance of nice things including food, clothing, and shelter. The problem is that some will go to any length to obtain these things. They will steal, lie, cheat, and yes, even kill to get what they want. In my own mind, if everyone in this world would contribute even a part of what they have to help, there would be enough food, clothing, shelter, and work for everyone. I am currently seeking an employer and I find out every day that potential employers are more interested in keeping their money than in putting someone to work. I, of course, am not the only one in that shape so I have to worry about others too, and I do. The jobs are leaving this nation because they can get cheaper labor elsewhere, not because corporations have unbounded love for the people of China, India, Pakistan, Mexico,etc.. Their unbounded love is only for money. Remember, "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil" (1 Timothy 6:10). When we return to God and ask for His forgiveness and help, then we will find our way back to prosperity, and only then.

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  Reply#24 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:30 PM EST
                                                                  Shane Ashton

                                                                  The bottom line is that to get rich, you need to take advantage and rip people off. Our government just doesn't punish that anymore.

                                                                  The said thing is...GWB and his ilk think they're doing the right thing for the people of the planet.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #24.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:38 PM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  rod-523226

                                                                  Shane, we continue to think this is all some big mystery from the big guys.  How many fo your neighbors bought house they could not afford???  How many neighbors used their new line of credit created by the inflation of housing???

                                                                  Let's call a spade a spade, We the people did this to our lovely self indulgent selves.

                                                                  Mr. Don do you shop at Wal-mart?? Always looking for a bargin???

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  Reply#25 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST
                                                                  Shane Ashton

                                                                  We the people did not hold our leaders to account.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #25.1 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:46 PM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  S Sarver

                                                                  I swore to myself I would never get too political on these sites, but I have to say even though I voted for Obama, I think he has a rude awakening when it comes to getting Congress to do anything.  Even if they are majority Democrat and even if he was "one of them", it's going to be a different ball game.  Congress has so totally disappointed me in the last few months.  Talk about "resting on your laurels".  They seem to be an overpaid group of slow minded cowards, predominantly; keeping themselves "coifed for the camera".  There are only a handful of them "worth their salt".  Good Luck, Barack and Company.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  Reply#26 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:42 PM EST
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