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Community colleges squeezed from both sides

Mon Mar 2, 2009 7:05 AM EST
business, technology, education, stocks-economy, only-on-msnbc-com, college, georgia, community, students, colleges, percent, education-and-schools, enrollment, education-policy, reinventing-america, colleges-universities, when-deneece-huftalin
msnbc.com News — Alex Johnson, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com

Enrollment at Salt Lake Community College in Salt Lake City, Utah, has rocketed by 12.5 percent in just the past year.

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— When Deneece Huftalin looks out from her office, she sees signs that would be encouraging in normal economic times.

“There’s more parked cars in the parking lot,” said Huftalin, the vice president for student services at Salt Lake Community College in Salt Lake City, Utah. “There’s more lines in our advising office.”

The school’s enrollment hit 23,252 this term, up by 12.5 percent in just a year, mirroring gains at every other institution in the Utah community college system. But the boom isn’t necessarily good news, officials said: The state’s community colleges, like similar institutions across the country, have been swamped with more applications than they know what to do with.

Almost 1,200 community colleges serve more than 10 million students across the country, according to the American Association of Community Colleges, and they are at the uneasy intersection of two trend lines as the economic recession enters its 15th month.

Tough times are fueling eagerness among workers who have lost their jobs to upgrade their skills and résumés. At the same time, the recession is forcing traditional four-year colleges and universities to cut enrollments and sharply raise tuition, freezing out many would-be students who are themselves feeling the pinch of the recession.

That has the less-expensive community colleges struggling to absorb the load at a time when their own budgets are being hacked.

The economy “definitely hurts,” Huftalin said. Students are “feeling the pain in terms of the budget cuts and increased enrollments.”

‘A lot of people ... have been shut out’
The situation is similarly difficult for many other community colleges across the country: Demand for their classes is at a record high, rising by an average of 10 percent over the past year, the community college association said, but the funding isn’t there to meet it.

Community colleges are supposed to be open access — accepting all comers — but the association said that tens of thousands of students have been turned away and that hundreds of thousands more will likely shut out in the future.

In California, the San Diego Community College District alone estimated that the state’s funding crisis had forced it to deny admission to more than 7,000 students. At the same time, state community college administrators are reviewing a plan to cut up to 5 percent of the system’s classes, even as enrollment in the state’s 110 two-year institutions has grown by 10 percent in the past year.

“We are definitely feeling the pinch,” said Sunny Cooke, president of Grossmont College in El Cajon, where enrollment is at a record high. “We have a lot of people who have been shut out of the state’s university system, as well as people who have lost their job.”

At Allen Hancock College in Santa Maria, Calif., enrollment has grown by 11.3 percent in the past year, making class registration a full-contact sport, said José M. Ortiz, the college’s president.

“We have a lot of pressure, but we don’t have funding,” Ortiz said. “Right now, our strategy has been to tell students to come early, register as soon as possible so they can get the classes that they need.”

Pikes Peak Community College in Colorado Springs, Colo., has been under a hiring and travel freeze since October, and administrators have slashed the professional development budget.

President Tony Kinkel said the college was in a “horrible paradox,” because enrollment is up by 16 percent over a year ago and demand is rising, but the state is reducing funding.

At Piedmont Virginia Community College in Charlottesville, Va., meanwhile, the budget was cut by 15 percent this year, even though enrollment has risen by 17 percent since 2006.

“These budget cuts are occurring at what is, for us, the worst possible time,” said Frank Friedman, the college’s president. “We are trying not to raise class sizes. We are trying not to curtail class offerings. It is becoming more and more difficult.”

Desperate workers seek alternatives
One group fueling the growing demand on community colleges is midcareer workers who have lost their jobs — or fear that they will soon.

Dorothy Hill is in her third semester at Tri-County Technical College in Pendleton, S.C., where enrollment has surged nearly 13 percent in the past year.

“Unemployment is terrible in South Carolina,” said Hill, who was referred to the college by the state unemployment office after she lost her plant job. “A lot of people are going back to school so when they finish, they can get better jobs.”

Eric Johnson, who is studying information technology at West Virginia Junior College in Morgantown, said he also decided on a community college after losing his job selling subprime mortgages.

“Being a 31-year-old-man with a family, it was a quicker turnaround time,” Johnson said. “I could get into the workforce quicker than if I were to go for a four-year bachelor’s degree.”

Such stories are commonplace, said Jack Kempt, senior director of admissions at Brown Mackie College in South Bend, Ind., where enrollment has grown about 25 percent in just over a year.

“I talk to students constantly, and the thing I hear is, ‘I’ve been laid off’ or ‘I think I’m going to be laid off and I’m looking for something more stable,’” he said.

Georgia schools on chopping block
Perhaps no state has been hit harder than Georgia, which is considering what officials acknowledge are extreme measures to close a $2.2 billion budget deficit.

Among them is a proposal to eliminate the state’s eight community colleges, essentially merging them into the technical college system. If that happens, they would be subsumed into a system that itself is contracting rapidly: 13 of the state’s technical colleges are scheduled to merge into six in July.

The proposal is under study by a working group appointed by Republican Gov. Sonny Perdue, members of which have tried to reassure Georgians that students would be able to transfer among institutions easily. But students and educators say the proposal, if enacted, would be a body blow to poor students and students in rural communities.

“A lot of people would probably be scared to leave home to go to a university, whereas here, you may drive 30 minutes to an hour, but you’re still at home,” said Denise Mosley, a sophomore at East Georgia College in Swainsboro.

Glenn Stracher, a professor of geology and physics at East Georgia College, said such cuts would debilitate scores of programs across Georgia.

“Some of the programs offered in two-year colleges might be cut, and that means there a whole bunch of students that would be denied the opportunity to pursue a particular career interest or program of study at a two-year school,” he said.

“In rural communities, that may mean that students take a look at the technical college and say, ‘Well, that school doesn’t have anything I’m interested in, so the heck with it — I just won’t go to college at all,’” Stracher said.

Good news on the other side?
Still, administrators and students say the squeeze on community colleges may be beneficial in the long run, if it produces more workers with advanced training.

“We don’t have the option anymore of our people working an unskilled job to provide for their family,” said Eric Clark, executive director of the state board of community and junior colleges in Mississippi, where enrollment in two-year institutions has grown by more than 25,000 statewide in the past year.

That makes community colleges crucial during tough economic times, said Bradley Byrne, chancellor of the Alabama Community College System.

“We’re lifting up individual people,” he said, “and they in turn are lifting up the state.”

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  • Public Discussion (76)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Writing Athena

Seems like this new stimulus bill will pay for some of this...which means that the taxpayers will.

But I can think of worse things to spend my tax dollars on than helping someone get an education.

  • 7 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 8:02 AM EST
motorcityrickDeleted
Metal Guitarist

If I understand you correctly, it seems that you want some to be sentenced to slave labor and with no access to their families while their children need both parents. If that's true, that's very un-American. If I am mistaken, please explain yourself.

This is why only liberals are the real Americans. If we go with the notion that a college education is the only key to escaping poverty, you either support the idea of a free college education for everyone or you are un-American.

  • 2 votes
#1.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:50 PM EST
Metal Guitarist

I can, too.

The military is the worst place to spend your money, as they act outside the Geneva Conventions and still can't win a war.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:08 PM EST
Chuck-392511

Doesn't it just figure. Times get tough and people, who are now unemployed, want to better themselves so the academia raise the cost of getting an education to keep their own little worlds, of overpay and privilege, afloat above everyone else.

If those liberal teachers and professors were really concerned with this country, they also would be offering up a pay cut so that those who have been held down, by the same teachers and professors in the graduate world, could afford to get an education???????

    #1.4 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:08 PM EST
    checkerbattery

    who's going to do the non-college education jobs

    Don't worry, there are plenty of college grads slinging coffee and burgers and whatnot. Getting a college degree doesn't suddenly make you smart and capable of holding down a professional job.

    • 6 votes
    #1.5 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:13 PM EST
    CommonSenseForOnce

    Why does Obama assume that just because one has a degree, that they will have a job. Do you know how many people with 2-year degrees work at Home Depot.

    • 3 votes
    #1.6 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:15 PM EST
    spider-737231

    That's because so many Americans who go to college get worthless degrees. Did you ever notice when asked on TV what they're majoring in, so many students answer is "Communications"? What the hell is that? Want a good job? Major in Engineering, Medicine, Physics...that's what the foreign students do, and that's why our doctors, engineers, and scientists are increasingly Asians.

    • 6 votes
    #1.7 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:55 PM EST
    ROY WILSON-336103

    Community Colleges are one area of government that should have one of the highest priorities, because these are students that WANT to improve themselves, unlike many in the public high schools who are there because they HAVE to be there. I would prefer cutting back on some of the frills in public high schools instead of limiting enrollment in Community Colleges.

    If it wasn't for the Community Colleges, I wouldn't have been able to later graduate from a well respected university with Bachelor's and Master's degrees.

    I can think of many other wasteful programs that should be cut first.

    • 3 votes
    #1.8 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:55 PM EST
    Carlos Toadvine

    As tuition rises the government must step in and regulate the cost of higher education. One might note that in other workers paradise governments the children are divided according to their educational potential or their political connections, thus reducing waste. These students through either their efforts or connections are able to achieve greatness under the watchful eye of the benevolent elitists who know more than anyone else about how things should be. Thus we have a Utopian society where everyone knows their place, future leaders are educated and indoctrinated thus becoming natural leaders as they will be in harmony with the philosophy of a social paradise where everyone except the elites share the bounty of society they of course exempt themselves as even in the world of change some things don't.

      #1.9 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:01 PM EST
      Cbarker

      Guitarist,  I take you have never been in the military and do not understand standing up and doing your part at keeping this country free.  Also where else can you get a free education, job training and a sense of doing for someone else other than yourself.  one more thing what do you propose to do with the hundreds of thousand that will become unemployed if you stop funding the military.  Are you going to defend this Country?

      • 1 vote
      #1.10 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:30 PM EST
      Allan Michael

      The Associated Press (AP) reported in 2008 that illegal betting was a $128,000,000,000.00 a year business.

      So, what would $128,000,000,000.00 buy? One thing would be that 3,200,000 people could pay $40,000 tuition with $128,000,000,000.00.

      Perhaps this is one way to get people to enroll in a CC. For whom do you steal or redirect the cash flow? For whom do you say, yes.

      (Will I get an email with an employment offer for a typing job after this email?)

        #1.11 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:46 PM EST
        serious

        The government cannot control what private colleges charge.

        The Federal gov't can't even do much about public colleges and universities, as they are mostly State enterprises.

        Students, however, could choose not to attend high priced private colleges.

        For example, why would anyone attend an expensive private school to major in education? Or forensic science? Forensic scientists are paid on the same scale as cops. How do you pay back $50,000 in student loans on the salary of a public servant?

        • 1 vote
        #1.12 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:25 PM EST
        america-302560

        Spider - "That's because so many Americans who go to college get worthless degrees. Did you ever notice when asked on TV what they're majoring in, so many students answer is "Communications"? What the hell is that? Want a good job? Major in Engineering, Medicine, Physics...that's what the foreign students do, and that's why our doctors, engineers, and scientists are increasingly Asians."

        -- Maybe you are not aware what you can do with a Communications degree. How many people in the world watch television? How many people in the world use the Internet? I am sure that we all know that millions of Americans and billions from all over the world watch tv and get on the Internet, which are two mass communication mediums. Why not have a communication major that studies what billions of people use? Also do you know that communications also covers advertising and public relations. What fortune 500 company does not have public relations people on the staff - individuals who help the company communicate their image to the public. There are tons of companies that have a media relations department. Aristotle, you know that old great man that all those history text books talk about, wrote many texts on public communication. You want to know how important communication is then don't talk for a year and see how much you can get done. Don't belittle one major in favor of the sciences. The arts and sciences are both important.

        How would it sound if a communication major says if doctors are so smart how come they still haven't even cured cancer? Maybe you and others don't know enough about the field of communication to know what it really is? I am sure that scientist and engineers have been laid off too.

        • 1 vote
        #1.13 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:51 PM EST
        checkerbattery

        ...why would anyone attend an expensive private school to major in education? Or forensic science? Forensic scientists are paid on the same scale as cops. How do you pay back $50,000 in student loans on the salary of a public servant?

        I would guess because the majority never work in their field of study (a topic to be debated another day) and when you get a good job it's usually because of who you know. You don't go to Harvard or Princeton to get a better education, you go there to meet future spouses and friends who can later on give you a good high paying job.

        • 1 vote
        #1.14 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 6:07 PM EST
        Reply
        Mike-501780

        Cut enrollments and raise tuition.

        Great solution to the problem, chancellors. By raising tuition, more and more American kids aren't going to be able to go to college. Only the foreign "exchange" students will. They either get a group discount, or they can afford to pay the big bucks, so they get in first. Our kids don't have the chance to enroll because the classes are full and too costly.

        If President Obama wants to insure a college education for all Americans, he needs to control the college presidents and chancellors. The universities are a factory for foreign education. We have the greatest education system in the world because the foreigners pay for it. They use it to educate their kids, they, in turn, bring them back home and produce products for sale to the US. We lose the educated kids, we lose the technology base, we lose jobs.

        If Obama and the gang in DC don't see this, then they need to take a trip to Oklahoma University. Or Oklahoma City university. Take a trip to any university. They'll see what I mean.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 9:20 AM EST
        serious

        They can't do anything about private colleges.

        In fact, other than the military academies, the Federal Gov't. can't do much about public colleges, either.

        I tried getting my State Gov't to do something about the pay of our State's flagship university president and head coaches. I got no response. I consider pay over $1 million to be totally unnecessary. They are there to raise money, not pocket it.

        • 2 votes
        #2.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:06 PM EST
        w k

        True, foreigner pay 10 time more than US Citizens. Most of them will stay in the US with work permit or paid marriage to get ther citzinship and live the good life. Few will return to their countries where pay is no good, life is not better, countries that have no middle class. Houses as expensive as in US, and four years college graduate makes $1000/month. So, if you own a house, then you are rich.

        • 1 vote
        #2.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:24 PM EST
        Munsta Boy

        Get ready for the education rush then Community Colleges because America knows now that colleges are overpriced in this country. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.....get a freaking CLUE here. Your way overpriced for many students and it takes too damn long to get to the meat of what you want to learn in the first place. Students want to learn practical hands on subjects. Students want to DIVE IN nowdays and community colleges offer this. Tuition is reasonable, as it should be for an education not padding the wallets of overpaid administration of upper crust colleges whom offer no better education than one willing to learn anywhere. The days of entitlement jobs are over as America knows what we are paying for and we are not going to pay for it any longer. Prices will continue to fall and fall hard as our spending is now only for the neccessities of sustaining life and a little bit of entertainment (cheap entertainment). So get ready community colleges, your day has arrived and don't piss us off with raising prices.

        • 3 votes
        #2.3 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:02 PM EST
        Allan Michael

        All so called state schools are land grant schools. The federal govt already controls. Even Vassar, a private college and formally an all female school, is now coed, probably so because they accepted federal money and due to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, another example of govt control. Take away their federal grants (Pell, et al) and see how it goes. Student loans too. Everyone is controlled by the govt, like it or not.

        Even the media with their corporate credit cards are controlled via the expense which reduces the corporation's tax liability. The govt GIVES and TAKES AWAY.

        Get on your Marx. Get set. Stop.

          #2.4 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:53 PM EST
          serious

          Musta, students CHOOSE not to major in "useful" programs.

          At a typical 4-year college 2 physics majors will graduate in a year. 8 chemistry majors will graduate in a year. 40 students will graduate in all engineering fields combined. 200 communications majors and 300 psychology majors will graduate in the same class.

          In the past decade, there would have been 250 business majors in there, too, but I think the recent crash will put a stop to that.

            #2.5 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:31 PM EST
            Max Mino

            as of today 27% of people in America hold a bachelors degree and half that hold a Masters degree, and half that hold a doctorates. When 75% of corporations in america require a minimum of a bachelors degree for an entry level positions. so why wouldn't you go to school? I am doing my schooling not only to better myself, job opportunities, but also to be a great example to the future of my children so they can see that their father and mother went all the way through school to receive their bachelors and masters and possibly a doctorates. who wouldn't for their family?

              #2.6 - Tue Mar 3, 2009 8:53 AM EST
              Reply
              Cee-323142

              Community colleges are used by foreign nationals who have graduated from a university degree program and are waiting for the October 1 start date for H-1B visas or who are guest workers between jobs as a way to maintain their legal status in the US. They have no intention of completing a program. Sometimes they are able to use their student visa status to work in the "practical training" programs which provide both the worker and the employer a significant FICA tax savings over hiring a US citizen or legal permanet resident.

              When there are a limited number of spaces in programs or classes, these practices deprive true students the opportunities to enroll. In addition, international student fees do not cover the total cost of attendance especially when facilities are expanded to handle the additional enrollments.

              The USCIS should consider an individual's enrollment and failure to complete courses and programs at a US institution as a disqualifying event in the issuance of future visas.

                Reply#3 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 9:32 AM EST
                Metal Guitarist

                Okay, all of you who make over $250,000 a year...pay the piper.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#4 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:02 PM EST
                crysta1

                they already pay the majority of taxes even with their tax cuts. 250,00 is not alot if you are running a small business and have to pay your employees 60,000 a year,

                do the math

                if you are making 250,000 a year and have 3 employees at even 50,000 a year then subtract medical, social security, hazard insurance, business tax how is it fair to tax them more???

                you tax them more then 2 of those 50,000$ employees lose their jobs and become a welfare recipient.

                • 1 vote
                #4.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:20 PM EST
                Allan Michael

                You can always sell your business. Or, close it. Or, fire all the employees. Many choices it seems. Even give Rothschild a call.

                  #4.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:55 PM EST
                  check again

                  Crysta, since you talk as though you're in business, i'll just assume you mispoke when you said 250,000 is not a lot of money if you are a small business and pay employees. That 250,000 you are being taxed on?You clearly know that employee wages, salaries, and compensation are deducted from your gross income, and so it is not taxable. That 250,000 is, if you are a small business, essentially everything you have AFTER all of your expenses. If you can't live off of 250,000 a year profit and be rediculously comfortable, there is something significantly wrong.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.3 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:06 PM EST
                  Flash-389009

                  "check again" and "charles.a.koonz" below are correct that the babbling about $250,000 per year is incorrect. This is similar to the drivel that Joe (the uncertified) Plumber said. The typical small business owner is taxed on their business gross income after interest, depreciation, and ammortization, and holdbacks for things like capital equipment and cash reserves. For an S-Corporation the remaining gross income is split between stockholders. If there are two stockholders (say the husband and wife) making $300,000 together, the actual revenue for the company could be $3 Million (10%) to $12 Million (2.5%) or so, depending on the profit margin. Joe the Plumber thought that if a plumbing company made $250,000 that the owner got taxed at a $250,000 tax rate, but this is wrong.

                  Perhaps all of these right wing conservatives that think they understand how a business works should take some classes in Business and Accounting at their local community college?

                    #4.4 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 5:48 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Dano-417914

                    And this is just the start! Things will still godown hill, and then start to get better. But it will take time...A long time... Get ready for the long hall.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#5 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:14 PM EST
                    maximillion4321Deleted
                    ABC-931453

                    Northwest College in Powell WY (where I live) is a great place to study. I know several students who are attending this Community College, and they love it! The tuition is low as the state absorbs a lot of the cost and WY is hurting a lot less than other states. Maybe some people out there could apply to Northwest?

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#7 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:26 PM EST
                    doctor invincibilis

                    the real pinch will be felt by the middle tier private liberal arts colleges, many of which, i predict, will fail.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#8 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:27 PM EST
                    serious

                    I have been waiting for small Liberal Arts colleges to start closing for 15 years. They are surprisingly resilient - but this economy could be too much for them.

                    By small schools I mean ones like Hiram College, Adrian College, Grove City, and ones like them. These are truly small schools.

                    There are small schools like Vassar and Oberlin that are famous and that have sizable endowments, but the others.....

                      #8.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:41 PM EST
                      doctor invincibilis

                      one point to consider in this issue is that many of them are church affiliated. whether the respective religious institutions will bail them out, and for how long, remains to be seen.

                        #8.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 6:20 PM EST
                        Reply
                        chris-847681

                        Just to help things out the Colorado Senate is again proposing giving illegal aliens in state tuition.

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#9 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:37 PM EST
                        maximillion4321Deleted
                        Metal Guitarist

                        How did CA get it's $42 billion deficit?

                        Ahhhhnold cut taxes for the wealthy.

                        • 2 votes
                        #9.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:07 PM EST
                        Jason-814889

                        Its comforting to know that Nancy Pelosi comes from this state.

                        Here's a great video on illegal immigration, check it out:

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.3 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:17 PM EST
                        doctor invincibilis

                        california's deficit results from sending mexicans to berkeley? as i said before. try to keep your comments somewhere within the realm of reality

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.4 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:20 PM EST
                        Jason-814889

                        Not everyone goes to Berkeley. Ever hear of community colleges and the whole public school system???

                        • 1 vote
                        #9.5 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:25 PM EST
                        George-313012

                        I graduated from the University of Colorado in 1960. They still send me their alumni magazine which I use to wrap the garbage.

                        The trouble with Colorado is all the diversity retards who moved in from California

                        .

                          #9.6 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:51 PM EST
                          doctor invincibilis

                          jason:pay attention to the discussion! the emperor maximillion invoked the 'prime colleges'. not me. i don't consider either the juco system or the state mega institutions turning out their thousands of retail managers, bank branch managers and elementary school teachers 'prime colleges'.

                            #9.7 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 6:23 PM EST
                            Reply
                            Greg-386417

                            Odd, but one of the few places that could really help to retrain people for jobs and a better situation, is short money. How about instead of giving billions of dollars to AIG, we give it to community colleges that will actually help people. Is this society screwed up or what?

                            • 2 votes
                            Reply#10 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:43 PM EST
                            had-enough-470242

                            Here is what is disturbing. Midcareer and young alike are using student loans for not only the rising cost of tuition/books but also for food, bills, rent, etc. And since they don't have start payments until they finish college, what happens then? I know that private loans are on the rise (higher interest rates) and its potential for abuse among the banks that loan it.

                            High tuition/books, decrease in scholarships and grants, decrease in government loans but increase in private loans is just a recipe for disaster. Can anyone agree that the circumstances just mirrors subprime. These are debt that cannot be unloaded from bankrupty

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#11 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:48 PM EST
                            serious

                            This may be the case, but it may not.

                            If a student chooses to major in chemistry and goes on to pharmacy school, his starting income will be north of $75,000 a year, and the investment will be worth it.

                            If a student majors in software engineering, again, the investment will be worth it.

                            If a student majors in sociology, well now it is less likely that the investment will be worth it.

                            Students (and parents, if they are paying) need to start looking at cost-benefit analyses.

                              #11.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:45 PM EST
                              check again

                              and inspite of the fact that student loans cannot be removed, interest rates are kept high, companies are restricting loans, and a lot of companies are simply exiting th student loan market alltogether. the problems run very deep and are extremely complex.

                                #11.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:08 PM EST
                                Max Mino

                                you are right, you still have to pay back the full amount of that student loan if you claim bankruptcy. Education is an investment, though I have plety of student loans that I have to repay pack at the end of my schooling, that gains in interest every month regardless.

                                  #11.3 - Tue Mar 3, 2009 9:01 AM EST
                                  Reply
                                  Tinker-400331

                                  I am an adjunct faculty member in the community college system in Arizona. While the need for a well-educated work force should spur growth of higher education, the state government has now decided to balance the budget (declines because of housing declines) on the back of education, from K-12 into higher ed. It seems that immediate concerns about the "balance" supercede long-range success for both the state and the people who live here. We need to plan according to future needs as well as immediate problems. Our former governor, who accepted a position in Washington, had the right idea, but the new one supports only short-term "solutions."

                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#12 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:05 PM EST
                                  Alice-454529

                                  We have two big problems at the community college where I work in North Carolina, First with the young school drop-out kids that come to register and never come back. and second with all the older Americans that have lost their jobs and want to continue with whatever is available but the classes are full with illegal aliens. Everyday is the same story. I wonder where the parents are for all these kids who now come looking to finish the GED or to obtain a high School diploma, It is sad to see that at 17 some of them already have been in jail, have more that one kid or are drug users. And in the other case why are so many illegal aliens studying and working while Americans do not have this privilege anymore.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  Reply#13 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:06 PM EST
                                  had-enough-470242

                                  I do see alot of young students who take the college courses because its the thing to do. Just in my class I see about a quarter of them dropping or just failing toward the end of the semester. Colleges do lose out because of those people just take up a slot for those who actually working hard on their degrees. It gotten so bad over here in Texas that they instituted a rule where if you retake a course more than 3 times, then you will get charged a out-of-state rate.

                                  First few weeks for every semester is a nightmare in parking but gets better as the weeks pass as those students just stop attending or drop out.

                                    #13.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:54 PM EST
                                    serious

                                    Admissions standards are inversely proportional to the drop out rate.

                                    Community colleges are expected to be open-admission, and thus you see a high drop out rate.

                                    If you taught at Yale, you wouldn't see this.

                                    Also, most community colleges operate on a first-come-first-serve basis - so most folks who get locked out didn't get off the dime to file the paperwork.

                                      #13.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:48 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      Ray0613

                                      if you can afford to go to the comunity college i say go, its never to late to expand your mind. And the $250000.0 comment is a joke right, or do you beleave that people that make over that amount dont already pay enough taxes?

                                        Reply#14 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:10 PM EST
                                        allfrogs

                                        All this and the fact that the professors at the community colleges are paid by the class at an hourly rate that has not changed since 1990. No guarantee for next quarter, no pay for extra hours to keep up quality (or grade papers), no health benefits. Community Colleges are a real freebie, remember that you get what you pay for!

                                          Reply#15 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:14 PM EST
                                          serious

                                          That is not true every where.

                                          There are community colleges that have large numbers of full-time tenured faculty who are paid very well.

                                          Conversely, there are a lot of private colleges who employ armies of itinerant part-time faculty who are paid on a contract basis, and by the class. English and Philosophy departments are the two that are most commonly in this situation.

                                            #15.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:58 PM EST
                                            Reply
                                            Jason-814889

                                            Its funny how liberals and RINOs think that you can just print money for these problems. Also giving money to to illegals for in state tuition is a big problem. They're trying to do it here too in WA state.

                                              Reply#16 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:15 PM EST
                                              Metal Guitarist

                                              Revenue collections from the rich solve the problem.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #16.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:17 PM EST
                                              Reply
                                              D Taylor-931566

                                              As usual the politicians think that starving education is the answer to all their problems. The grim reality, is that it should be one the last choices made. After all supposedly smart men got us into this mess, shouldn't smarter people get us out of it? We tend to let the not too smart, but very shrewd leads us down the path they want to go. An educated public is the single greatest threat to politicians.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#17 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:18 PM EST
                                              Jeff-312937

                                              I think as time goes on, college (and I'm sure many are thinking to the contrary) will become less and less valuable. For one thing, from this article, many people applying to schools are older people whose jobs have been either downsized or outsourced due to the recession. Who's to say that the career that they are studying for can't meet the same fate? I liken this to trying to hit a moving target.

                                              Another thing, is that not everyone can get a degree or an education. As the old saying goes, "the world needs ditch diggers too." The problem with the influx of people in school now is that as more and more people get a degree, the value of that degree plummets. With the job market contracting, more and more people (with a piece of paper and the student loan debt that goes with it) are fighting for less and less jobs. The tragedy of this is that sometime ago in America, we had a manufacturing industry that paid well. It wasn't a necessity to go to college to have a family and provide for it. But as our manufacturing exported and factories closed, the only options surrounding many young people were McJobs, the military, or college. Obviously, the last option is the most desirable, but that is looking less so as time passes by due to what I just noted.

                                                Reply#18 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:33 PM EST
                                                sqrtnegone

                                                As the old saying goes, "the world needs ditch diggers too."

                                                These ditch diggers will need training in order to deal with the increasingly technological nature of even menial jobs. There are now certificates for people to learn how to be janitors, I'm sure that ditch digging could be next.

                                                The problem with the influx of people in school now is that as more and more people get a degree, the value of that degree plummets.

                                                That isn't necessarily true unless too many people get the same type of degree.

                                                  #18.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:37 PM EST
                                                  serious

                                                  We don't need fewer people going to college. We need more people who go to college to choose rigorous programs.

                                                  The number of engineers that we turn out has been steadily declining. The peak year for women graduating with BS engineering degrees was 1985!!!

                                                  We need fewer "business" majors, and more STEM students.

                                                    #18.2 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:01 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    Jeff-312937

                                                    BTW, I'm a big proponent of self-education. I didn't even notice this until after I got my degree (and in fairness, I might not have noticed if I did not get the degree), but think of the resources out there. You have public libraries (unless they close too) and the Internet. Those are all the tools you need to begin to teach yourself on virtually any subject or topic that you desire. The problem is that an employer might not find that as valuable as the degree, but I think that could change over time (as well as the attitude and motivation of the person).

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    Reply#19 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:35 PM EST
                                                    had-enough-470242

                                                    Yup that is very true. But having a degree does help. My friend told me that in his department, they receive tons of applicants all the time. They might receive 500 applicants and maybe half of it has a associates degree but 70 of it is BA. I guess 430 of the applicants get tossed aside. Then they will finally crack it open to look at experience, references, etc.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #19.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:45 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    cyfi

                                                    They have billions for inefficient union companies and greedy bankers, a billions to rebuild the GAZA strip, Pakistan, Africa, but not enough for community colleges, what is wrong with this picture?.

                                                    Hell, they are pprobably bumping Americans to make room for legal and illegal aliens in these community colleges. Americans are being screwed royally by both parties and it is time we started protesting like crazy over the stupid and treasonous use of our tax dollars for everyone but average Americans. We actually have this stupid democratic congresswoman from Asheville, NC that wanted to give scholarships for illegal aliens, they are totally out of touch with reality in Congress and especially the Democratic party, but the Republicans don't have anything to brag about with their lousy leadership for the last 8 years. Both parties are the problem we need a third party in this country.'

                                                    I am scared a day of reckoning is building against these greedy political parties that ignore the average American over and over. It is going to be violent and the Democrats will probably use it as an excuse to install martial law,overthrow the Constitution and grab power, probably in about 2-3 years. I sure would like to see Obama's birth certificate, what are the Democrats hiding, everyone else's birth certificate is public record but our Presidents whose certificate was sealed by the Democrat Governor of Hawaii.

                                                    I can only hope the moderates in both parties will rise to the occasion, but so far they have been like a bunch of meek mice.

                                                      Reply#20 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 1:59 PM EST
                                                      strawberry-301127

                                                      In NC they started (democrats) an EDUCATION LOTTERY; however, now due to the crunch of Gov spending (democrats) they have NOW raided the Lottery money for the STATE excess and taking it away from the EDUCATION fund; however, they still call it the NC EDUCATION LOTTERY. The new Deomcrat (woman) promised that all graduating seniors from High school could attend the Community College of their choice for FREE if she was elected. Another democrat making PROMISES that they knew they could not keep. I even ASKED what they meant by FREE; and was given a three paragraph of explaining the word FREE. Webster has it in one line. Politicians make promises and then they CHANGE and everyone smiles their plastic smiles and say it is not what we wanted but what we HAVE to do. They spent too ..... much money on crap, crap, crap. The democrats are idiots; then however, the republicans will become the same way if they were on the throne. We need to kick out ALL politicians in every state; in the Fed and all over the local (city/county) spectrum, and put in some NON political idiots. Get rid of all the beaucrats who control the politicians also. Someone said they are making room for illegals; we probably should replace the political democrats with 4th grader illegals. U voted for Change...u got it ???

                                                        Reply#21 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:17 PM EST
                                                        charles a. koonz, dds. mph

                                                        Crysta 1

                                                        You don't know what you're writing about.  The tax increase on over $250,000 earners, as it applies to small business, is on the owner's profit, or net.  Wages for employees come out of the gross income.  Your figures do not make any sense.  You are posting on a subject about which you know nothing.

                                                          Reply#22 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:31 PM EST
                                                          George-313012

                                                          The Dow is in free-fall and we get this bleeding heart BS from MSNBC. If this were Dec. 7, 1941 we would be reading about a lack of free basket weaving at UCLA.

                                                            Reply#23 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:43 PM EST
                                                            GK-298121

                                                            I wouldn't worry about the supply of people for jobs not requiring an education. Generation after generation, there are always plenty of dumb, and those too lazy/undisciplined to learn, to go around.

                                                            As for well-paid manufacturing jobs - those days are over. The highest cost any business faces is always labor. That's why there is a never-ending effort to produce machines, robots, processes, etc., and improvements to them over time, with one goal in mind - reducing or eliminate employees. Formal and ongoing education is your only protection against losing a manufacturing job.

                                                              Reply#24 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:58 PM EST
                                                              TEW-837446

                                                              I attend a CC in Virginia and I love it.  I pay very little and I am receiving the same education as the 4 year university near it.  My professors all have thought at schools that charge 40 K a year and I am paying $3,600.   I work hard and with my GPA of 3.7 I can transfer to any four year public university with junior status.  The best part of this is that it keeps the four year universities price down due to the competition.    

                                                                Reply#25 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:14 PM EST
                                                                serious

                                                                That's great TEW. Keep it up.

                                                                I wouldn't count on the CCs keeping the cost of other schools down, though. Expect a serious increase in tuition when you transfer.

                                                                You are probably getting a huge amount for your investment.

                                                                  #25.1 - Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:06 PM EST
                                                                  Old & Tired Shot Up Vet-732760

                                                                  Very true. I did the same thing in Texas as I burnt up my GI Bill. The same CC credits cost pennies on the State University dolloars and are fully transferable. Its great and having done both, the CC I felt always give you quality one one instructor time...

                                                                    #25.2 - Tue Mar 3, 2009 9:16 AM EST
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Old & Tired Shot Up Vet-732760

                                                                    I guess these guys missing last weeks Obamaism about every child will be attending college. If they think they're crowded now, just wait. They'll be full of dead wood (deadheads) then...

                                                                      Reply#26 - Tue Mar 3, 2009 9:12 AM EST
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