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Recession changing U.S. jobs picture

Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:43 PM EDT
business, technology, only-on-msnbc-com, jobs, college, degree, manufacturing, moss, reinventing-america, swank, alan-swank�s
msnbc.com News — By Allison Linn
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— Growing up in a small town in Michigan, Alan Swank’s career path was clearly laid out for him: Attend vocational classes at the local high school, graduate and take a well-paying factory job.

Swank, now 49, did attend those classes, and, after an eight-year stint in the military, he did start working in manufacturing.

But now, at an age when many might be looking toward retirement, he’s embarking on a new career as an academic.

This summer, Swank hopes to complete his Ph.D. in organizational management and leadership, shutter the metalworking shop he has run for 20 years and, if things go according to plan, take a teaching job.

The change in careers will be the culmination of years of schooling that began in 2001, after Swank started to see stiffer competition from Chinese manufacturers.

“I said, ‘Things are going to change drastically. I need to prepare for this,’” he recalled. “I knew a change had to be made.”

The deep recession that began in 2007 is doing more than costing millions of jobs. It is transforming the economy and forcing many workers to seek entirely new careers. For many, that will mean moving away from blue-collar jobs and toward white-collar work, perhaps with a trip back into the classroom on the way.

“The jobs that are opening up … are not physical labor jobs. They’re jobs requiring education, skills, math ability, probably computer literacy,” said Nigel Gault, chief U.S. economist with IHS Global Insight.

The country has lost a net 4.4 million jobs since the recession began in December 2007, led by sectors such as manufacturing and construction. Yet at the same time a few areas have been continuing to add jobs, including fields such as health care, and social assistance jobs such as social workers and mental health counselors.

In a fast-changing economy, experts say job seekers need to be flexible because it’s hard to say where the new growth fields might be in the next 10 or 20 years.

“Very often the jobs that will get generated in the future may be in places that we haven’t even thought of, that don’t exist yet,” Gault said.

A million lost jobs
The manufacturing sector has shed more than 1.2 million jobs over the past year, extending the long decline of that industry, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The construction industry also has been badly bruised and has lost 1.1 million jobs since its peak two years ago amid a steep drop in residential construction and slowdown in nonresidential building.

Other fields also have suffered badly in the current downturn, including the retail industry, which has lost 608,000 jobs since the recession began, and the truck transportation industry, which has lost 138,000.

Meanwhile the health care industry has added more then 350,000 jobs over the past year as as demand for nurses and other workers continues to outpace the available work force.

“I’ve been saying this for 30 years: You can’t go wrong being a nurse or a health care practitioner,” said David Resler, chief U.S. economist with Nomura Securities.

Banking on a career in nursing
Bob Duggan of Jacksonville, Fla., agrees. Like Swank, Duggan figured he had his life path worked out for him when he graduated from college in the late 1970s with a business degree.

But after 20 years in the banking industry, Duggan said he began to worry that corporate America wouldn’t be as kind to him as he got older, more expensive and perhaps more expendable. Duggan, 54, dabbled in real estate for a while before enrolling in nursing school a few years ago, and that’s where he found his new calling.

As a man, Duggan says he’s still an oddity among nursing staffs. But the former college football player is hoping that his gender will be a selling point because he can more easily lift larger and less mobile patients.

In other ways, he says, he is similar to many of the people in his nursing classes.

“I think I represent a large segment of the population that is having to retool themselves in another way,” he said.

While some look to health care, others are banking on the government stimulus plan to create more jobs in areas such as infrastructure improvements and environmentally oriented retrofitting. Many also have high hopes for education, although that field, too, is seeing some pain as state budgets get squeezed.

Swank, whose Delton, Mich.-based manufacturing business builds parts for the automotive and aerospace industries, didn’t initially plan on pursuing a career in education. That changed when he took a class from a woman who had started out on the factory floor, moved into administrative work and eventually entered academia.

“I thought, ‘If she can do it, I can do it,’” he said.

Swank completed his undergraduate and master’s degree at a local college, and has been pursuing his Ph.D. online with Capella University.

He and his wife have continued to run the manufacturing business, albeit with a much smaller client base, and Swank also has been teaching statistics classes at a nearby university. Some of his students are blue-collar workers who, like him, are facing the demise of the career they thought they’d have for life.

“I force these poor, frightened students into using Excel,” Swank said.

For Swank, the change in careers is not without upheaval. The Michigan native may have to move away from the state he grew up in, and where two of his grown children still live and work in the automotive industry, to find work.

Swank also is realizing that competition in his newly chosen field is incredibly stiff, and full-time teaching positions are hard to come by. To make a living, he may need to piece together a few part-time university teaching jobs.

"I’ll do whatever it takes," he said.

Unskilled labor jobs disappearing
While the overall economy eventually will improve, experts see poor prospects for jobs in  manufacturing.

That’s partly because manufacturing facilities have made technological improvements so they can do more work with fewer workers, and partly because more of the work is being done overseas. Those U.S. manufacturing jobs that do remain are increasingly specialized and often employ workers whose advanced training make them more productive.

“There’s not too many well-paid, unskilled manufacturing jobs around these days,” Gault said.

Experts do expect the construction industry to rebound eventually, but they say it could take years to even approach its former size. There were about 6.6 million people working in construction as of February, a drop of 104,000 from just the previous month, according to the BLS.

“We’re going to need to resume producing enough houses to accommodate the growing population, and that’s going to be mean we’re going to need skilled workers,” Resler said.

Other sectors that traditionally have provided jobs for people without specialized skills, such as the retail industry, aren’t expected to offer as many options as in years past.

That void is creating problems for workers without any post-high school education, and increasing the value of doing some advanced training or getting a college degree.

The unemployment rate for college graduates over age 25 stood at 4.1 percent in February, a big jump from 2.1 percent a year earlier but still considerably lower than the 8.3 percent unemployment rate for those with only a high school diploma.

The unemployment rate for people with some college stood at 7 percent as of February, while the jobless rate for people over age 25 without even a high school diploma was at 12.6 percent.

In such a tight job market, some suspect that one reason college graduates are faring better is because they are taking jobs that wouldn’t normally require a four-year degree.

“The low-level jobs for which you don’t need a college degree will always be there, (but) the competition for those low-level jobs will be those people with a college degree,” Resler said.

When David Miller found out that he was going to be laid off from his job as an automotive technician, the married father of two decided it was time to hit the books, not the job fairs. He’s now back in school with the eventual goal of getting a bachelor’s degree.

Miller, who lives in Elk Grove, Calif., didn’t think college was for him when he graduated from high school. Instead, he trained to be an automotive technician, and then switched careers to work in restaurant as a kitchen manager.

The 32-year-old had gone back to being an automotive technician because the long hours of working in a restaurant meant too much time away from his family. The decision to go back to school has been hard on his family, which is relying on his wife’s job as a pharmacy technician and hasn’t always been able to pay the mortgage on time.

In addition, Miller’s wife recently was treated for thyroid cancer and has suffered from other health problems.

Still, in the long term, Miller thinks a degree will allow him to provide better for his family.

“Work experience is awesome and employers really look at it, but if you don’t have a college degree you’re probably not going to get picked,” he said.

Even in this deep recession, some are looking at their job losses as an opportunity to do what they’ve always dreamed about.

Shawn Jackson Moss was still in college when she took a job with IBM. As her career at the technology giant progressed from administrative positions to programmer, education fell to the wayside and she never completed her degree.

Moss had recently returned from a leave of absence, during which she had been working toward a degree in theology, when she found out she was getting laid off after 17 years with IBM.

Moss had always expected to work at IBM until she retired and figured theology would be more of a sideline. But faced with a choice of trying to update her skills to get another technology job or pursuing a career as a chaplain, she decided to go with the ministry.

“I always had a passion for it,” she said. “The only thing that was scary was just, ‘How am I going to eat?’”

This summer, Moss, 47, Moss is expected to graduate from Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Mich., with a master’s in divinity. Her husband, who retired from the military, also is in school to complete an MBA and a master’s in health care. That means that by this summer they’ll both be job-hunting — and strapped with student loans.

Her new career may prove more rewarding, but it also has its own challenges. Moss always knew that going into theology would mean a pay cut from her previous job, and she says certain jobs, such as being a chaplain in a prison, aren’t options for her because of her age. The recession also has hit the field, so competition for new jobs is stiff.

Still, Moss and her husband figure they have a few months after graduation before they hit crisis mode.

“We’re concerned, but we’re not panicked,” she said.

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  • Public Discussion (231)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
Al Olson

Have you changed careers? Or considered going back to school?

    #1 - Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:21 PM EDT
    Dorko1

    Did both, 2 times, Im on my 3rd career after going to school 2 times. Ever here of the rust belt? Companies have evaporated from here in the last 20 years and career change is that old here.

    • 1 vote
    #1.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:57 AM EDT
    Greg-281912

    I did go back for an MBA many years after my BS.

    And, one of the ways I have managed to stay employed (other than working very hard) is to move around the country, never tying myself down to one area with the bogus "American Dream" of owning a home, which in today's marketplace is a ball and chain. Yes, it's a myth dreamed up by realtors, no more and no less.

    As Southwest Airlines says, I am now, and will remain, "Free to Move About The Country," to make a good life for myself.

    And that, my friends, is the REAL American Dream!

    • 2 votes
    #1.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
    Longhair

    I am being forced to change careers two-fold.

    Manufacturing has gone to China, India and other 3rd world countries that don't have to worry about Unions, OSHA, EPA, wages, etc. while all the manufacturing jobs left are run by people who hire illegal aliens at minimum wage.

    After 15 years of working 50 to 60 hour 6 days a week, watching my pay check get smaller and smaller, my back finally gave out to the point I am no longer to continue on even in a limited capacity because it's cheaper to give a "documented" a $0.50 per hour raise, send them to school and turn that $20+ an hour hour position into a $8.50 an hour position.

      #1.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:40 AM EDT
      avg-joe

      The sad irony in all of this is the fact that even advanced college degrees aren't enough to shield your job from offshoring these days. Many jobs that traditionally require college degrees are going to India and other low-cost labor destinations. Millions of white-collar jobs have already been lost, and the economy is pushing companies to pull white-collar offshoring levers they haven't even thought of before.

      For those jobs that can't be offshored, Fortune 500 companies successfully lobbied congress in the early 90's for the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. Nationally, 85,000 H-1B foreign worker visas are issued each year, and there is no limit on the number of L-1 visas issued. Big companies tried to justify the need for these visas by claiming there was a massive skills gap in the US, and they couldn't find the workers any other way. In reality, most of the workers entering the US on these visas are entry-level workers in their early 20's for which travel is not an issue. The fact the top 4 H-1B sponsors in 2008 (Tata, Satyam, Infosys, and Wipro) were Indian offshoring outfits doesn't help make their case.

      For much of the past 10 years, these programs simply depressed salaries for some US white-collar workers and dissuaded others from pursuing scientific and engineering careers. However, now that so many people are out of work and the pressure to save on labor costs is greater than ever, I would dare say a number of college graduates, especially in science and engineering, are out of work thanks to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. Hopefully, the American public will do a better job standing up to these programs than they did standing up to the offshoring of our manufacturing industry.

      • 2 votes
      #1.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:48 AM EDT
      avg-joe

      Some factoids on the H-1B and L-1 foreign worker visa programs, for those interested in learning more about them:

      * In 2007, the top 4 sponsors of new H-1B's were all Indian offshoring companies: Infosys (4,559), Wipro (2,678), Satyam (1,917), and Tata (1,539).
      * These figures don't even include thousands more workers brought over on sponsored L-1 visas (no limits) or H-1B visa holders already in the country.
      * In total, over 1.5 million workers are currently in this country thanks to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs.
      * The H-1B and L-1 visa programs are expanding from IT into health care, education, and back-office positions.

      These programs were sold to the public as a way to "bridge the skills gap" by attracting the "best and brightest" workers from other countries. However, the qualification for "best and brightest" is pretty weak, and often times amounts to a bachelor's degree from some nondescript school in the applicant's home country. Some of these kids are bright, but most fall well short of the standard. Most sponsors of H-1B and L-1 visas could care less about a "skills shortage" ... they're worried about a "cheap worker shortage".

      People argue that our education system is behind other countries, so we have no choice but to import people from countries with better education systems. Well, we import most H-1B and L-1 workers from India, a country where 1 in 3 adults is illiterate! I'm not sure that's the kind of performance our country needs to be aspiring to. Like most things that come out of the mouths of a fortune 500 executive these days, this rationale is a complete lie.

      If you think bringing in thousands of foreign workers is crazy at a time when the economy is shedding 650,000 jobs per month, you're not alone. Let your congressmen and president know the abusive H-1B and L-1 visa programs must come to an end.

      • 2 votes
      #1.5 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:01 PM EDT
      thelastguruDeleted
      avg-joe

      I think a big part of the problem is that when you take everything that can be offshored out of the equation, you aren't left with enough to for a country like the United States to support itself. Much like what happened with agriculture in the past century, ultimately we'll have no choice but to implement trade barriers with developing countries until they reach a point where they start importing as much as they export.

      In the short term, controlling illegal immigration and getting rid of programs like the H-1B and L-1 visa will be a necessity. These immigrants explain why US wages were stagnant while trillions of credit dollars were being pumped into the economy. With the massive credit bubble now a thing of the past, there simply aren't enough jobs to go around.

      What I'm stating above is fairly obvious, and the American people know we need to change. The question now is how long the thoroughly-corrupted folks in Washington DC, Democrat or Republican, can continue to pretend that free trade with the developing world and uncontrolled immigration are somehow in America's best interest. The answer depends on how clearly the American people make their voices heard on these subjects.

      • 2 votes
      #1.7 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:16 PM EDT
      elock

      Re-inventing America is a bogus focus!!! Un-inventing America is the real task. We need to return to where we were nearly 200 years ago. We need to go back to the beginnings of our independance and do it right this time.

      OK, thelastguru, you go hop on that horse & wagon with your tuberculosis or cholera and get treated without modern meds in a hospital without air conditioning. I'll stay in 2009 with the wonderful stuff technology has given me.

      • 1 vote
      #1.8 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:41 PM EDT
      cheryl-411434

      Al - yes, I have changed careers, and am now a RN. 'They' say the nursing industry will continue to add jobs, but what is being forgotten, is that if there is no one to pay for nursing (healthcare) then there will be no jobs there either. Scary prospect for everyone.

      • 2 votes
      #1.9 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
      cheryl-411434

      guru - think again about health care being outsourced.. many hospitals right now, are bringing in nurses from the Philippines for lengthy contracts. How would you like English to be your nurses' 3rd language? Scary when you think about being the one laying in that bed either elderly, confused and hard of hearing, or with pain killers on board, thus your cognition down, trying to figure out what your nurse is saying to you. Or wondering if your nurse is understanding what you are saying!

      • 1 vote
      #1.10 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:57 PM EDT
      mojo31979

      Can any of you guys please provide a source for all these healthcare jobs that are being outsourced? I've been working at my current hospital for over 7 years and they, and all the other hospitals in my city are not outsourcing their employees.

        #1.11 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
        cheryl-411434

        mojo, check out the pacific northwest for one, but my understanding is that many coastal cities both east and west participate in this practice.. and have done this practice in the past as well.

          #1.12 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT
          avg-joe

          Nurses are indeed coming in on H-1B and L-1 visas. Depending upon which country they come from, they might be able to use other visas as well. (Australians, for example, can use an E-3 visa.)

          What surprises a lot of people is that H-1B and L-1 visas can be applied to a lot more occupations than just simple programmers.

          • 2 votes
          #1.13 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:32 PM EDT
          Project 44

          The last time I was in a hospital I was amazed by the number of Indian doctors, nurses, and orderlys.

          Insourcing has the same effect as outsourcing....fewer jobs for Americans.

          Businesses want the best help for the least cost.....makes sense, but that only adds to an ideolgy where money begins to play the biggest role in all business decision making. Carried to the extreme that becomes greed. (AIG ring any bells ? ?) and those policies will never move in any other direction.

          ....used to be "Clapton is God" ........now its "Money is God"

          Enjoy your days.

          Keith

            #1.14 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:35 PM EDT
            Greg-281912

            It's true that some paradigms have changed. But one hasn't: $$$

            Money has always been the endgame. Not just in the 80s, or the 90s, or today, but always.

            Didn't we all learn that very early when we played the board game entitled LIFE? The winner was the one with the most money.

              #1.15 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:30 PM EDT
              thelastguruDeleted
              elock

              LOL... sorry bub. I'd show you my IQ test scores and my magna cum laude degree from a tier 1 school, but I wouldn't want to embarrass you. After all, at least I clearly made my point, whereas you had to insult me to get yours across.

              I still maintain that I like where I'm at in 2009. And that does not make me retarded.

                #1.17 - Mon Apr 6, 2009 4:07 PM EDT
                Nancy Lynn Jarvis

                As a twenty-year veteran Realtor who has been through market downturns before, I decided to take a completely different track. I started writing mystery books set in the real estate community. I don't know if this will bring me success, but my friends who are active Realtors tell me our incomes are comparable this year.

                  #1.18 - Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  Keith GleggDeleted
                  Michael Sohn

                  Be very careful what career you choose in healthcare. Layoffs and cost cutting are occurring, and the schools are still pumping out students as fast as they can.

                  • 4 votes
                  Reply#3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:20 AM EDT
                  maddog-752810

                  One thing I've never understood about nursing as a healthcare job is the high turnover rate. I understand why, since most nurses are expected to work swing shifts and you can only do that so long before your burned out. Why does the health business insist on this? It's certainly not healthy for the people doing it. It makes no sense.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:18 AM EDT
                  PINCH

                  maddog

                  It is really more than just odd shifts. A lot of nurses actually prefer swing and night shifts, especially if they have kids and both parents work.

                  The big problem is the shortage of nurses. The patients-to-nurse ratio can become overwhelming and it is very discouraging when a nurse knows they cannot provide the quantity and/or quality of care they believe a patient needs.

                  In addition, dedicated nurses often honor the call to cover additional shifts when there are shortages. This is truly exhausting. Even regular single shifts are exhausting. The paperwork load is tremendous and although it must be done precisely, it takes them away from patient care, which is the reason they chose nursing as a profession.

                  Finally, nurses are not really paid very well for the services they are expected to provide and the care they must take to not make ANY mistakes. They are often forced to put up with verbal (and sometimes minor physical) abuse from patients, patients' families, and even doctors. Their compensation pales when all the above comments are taken into consideration.

                  Nurses often find that they can use their skills in other areas where many if not all of these negatives are removed or reduced. So they leave, hoping there will be someone to replace them.

                    #3.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:03 PM EDT
                    cheryl-411434

                    PINCH, don't forget hospital economics, which is forcing nurses to continually do more with less. Increasing the patient to nurse ratio because it is cheaper! not always because of the shortage. 1 nurse to 7 patients on a neuro floor is a recipe for disaster. Yet happens all the time. Sometime up to 9 patients to one nurse!!!! Take 7 patients that are now compulsive, confused and perhaps have just had some type of surgical intervention. Now assign them all to one nurse who must assess them, administer meds, watch for signals of a worsening condition, and keep them SAFE from themselves (ie climbing out of bed, falls, pulling tubes, pulling iv's, etc.). This can not be physically done. But is routinely asked of nurses everyday in every hospital.. Next time you, or a loved one is admitted, ask what the staffing ratio is on that floor of that hospital. And DEMAND to management that you or your loved one has appropriate supervision. 1 nurse to 4 patients is usually acceptable to nurses on the floor. Certain cases require even more supervision. In an ICU for example a 1 to 2 nurse to patient ratio is acceptable, sometimes even 1 to 1, and for even higher acuity (say, arterial bleed trying to rush off to surgery), you may even need 2 nurses to 1 patient. Finance people have a very difficult time putting faces on the numbers they crunch.

                    • 1 vote
                    #3.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
                    PINCH

                    Cheryl

                    You are absolutely right. This is indeed a money issue particularly in for-profit hospitals, but it is also a nursing shortage issue in many areas, especially in not-for-profit hospitals. These are typically the ones running nation-wide recruiting campaigns, and also hiring nurses from overseas.

                    Either way, the burden on nurses is untenable, and the possible effects on patient care can be disastrous, although I know that competent, caring nurses such as you appear to be will do everything in your power to make sure oatients receive only the best.

                    You are truly the angels of mercy.

                      #3.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:42 PM EDT
                      PINCH

                      Some of you above are legitimately concerned with the impact of all these visas being used to bring the "best and the brightest" to replace American workers. You need to see if you can get salary information on these imported workers. If you have excellent performance evaluations and the only reason you can see for your dismissal is so a lower-paid imported worker can take your job, you have a legitimate grievance through any number of organizations including the EEOC.

                      I heartily agree that we need to make our representatives aware of this travesty, and I would suggest that you will get a better initial response from your state representative's local office. They can advise you where to go in addition, but they will be interested. After all, they are the first in line for your vote.

                      A word to those who notice a number of people in the hospital who "appear" to be foreigners and who are assumed to be here on visas and taking American jobs, especially doctors and specialists. You need to let your pre-judgements down. Many of these people are in fact American citizens and were educated at some of our best institutions They may have an accent and probably do speak several languages, which is the norm in most every country but America, and is considered the sign of a well-educated person. We are about the only ones who still think our own language is sufficient. But these Americans with foreign roots are as excellent, average, or below average in quality of care as the typically "white" doctor with the American accent. Check it out before you judge.

                        #3.5 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:52 PM EDT
                        cheryl-411434

                        Well said Pinch. I work in a very culturally diverse public hospital, where as a white person, I am a minority. Race, color, creed, religion, etc does not make a heath care provider better or worse. But I will share this particular experience I have had with imported nurses. They will accept more work for less money, they concentrate on charting and not direct patient care, they NEVER disagree with a MD, and always pass pt/family members concerns on to the charge nurse instead of answering questions themselves. I am not sure if this is how they are taught to be nurses in their own country, if it is cultural, or what it is exactly. But, as a consequence, patient safety/satisfation as well as quality patient care goes down considerably. But originally profits are up for the institution. However, over time, as lawsuits increase and working conditions becomes less safe, insitituions must face the fact that it is now more cost intensive to retain such workers. It's cyclical, this seems to happen every 15 or so years. Now, on the other hand, I have known nurses that came over to America originally on such programs and have become American citizens and now demand better working conditions, grew a backbone when talking to MD's, practice a safer medicine and became EXCELLENT nurses.

                        • 1 vote
                        #3.6 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:52 PM EDT
                        PINCH

                        cheryl

                        I have seen a similar phenomena in several service occupations. My own opinion is that it a real insecurity about job status. Once one is a citizen and knows they are safer participating in the process without fear of being "sent back", they do, as you say "grow a backbone".

                          #3.7 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:33 AM EDT
                          cheryl-411434

                          You know, you are exactly right. It would be beneficial (all be it, unethical and immoral) to have workers that are afraid of you. And deportation is a very large threat to hold over one's head. Hmmmmm. Interesting thoughts to ponder, for certain.

                            #3.8 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:16 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            JG-399404

                            The U.S. really needs to bring back manufacturing jobs. It's not a good idea to have to rely on foreign countries to manufacture goods for us. The supply of foreign manufactured goods can be shut down at any time and not every American is cut out for (or wants to do) white collar work.

                            • 7 votes
                            Reply#4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:43 AM EDT
                            maddog-752810

                            The only way we're going to bring back all the manufacturing jobs is if everyone is willing to work for poverty wages. There are some manufacturers here that do that and have a high turnover rate because of it. There were studies done a few years back that indicated that in order to live just an average life.....pay the basic bills, buy a modest car and home, pay for health insurance, eat a normal diet, you had to be making at least $17.00/hour. The majority of manufacturing jobs I've seen are paying $9.00 to $12.00. Yet the people who fight a living wage are making humdreds/ hour if not thousands/hour.

                            • 4 votes
                            #4.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
                            Longhair

                            I remember back in the early 90's manufacturing jobs were paying $15 to start and a good CNC Machinist was making well over $23 an hour.

                            By the time the end of the 90's came around, I was lucky if I was breaking $13 an hour and that was even after attending school.

                            NAFTA & Illegal immigration are the 2 biggest causes for the disappearanceof manufacturing during the clinton administration.

                            • 2 votes
                            #4.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:46 AM EDT
                            schmadrian

                            "NAFTA & Illegal immigration are the 2 biggest causes for the disappearanceof manufacturing during the clinton administration."

                            As a Canuck, I'm always fascinated by the 'NAFTA blame'. Because we've lost proportionally as much manufacturing as you have.

                            So. If this is true, if we've both lost what we had, and you believe it's because of NAFTA...that leaves one country making good off our losses: Mexico.

                            However, if this is the case...why do you have so much illegal immigration from there? Why aren't all these 'illegals' staying home to work at all the jobs you're suggesting have fled the US?

                            NAFTA is a hollow bugaboo. Look not so much further abroad for your reason, but to your American boardrooms, your shareholder meetings...and to your local purchasing populace...buying foreign-made goods because they're cheaper than home-grown ones.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:08 PM EDT
                            PINCH

                            Longhair

                            If American citizens trying to make extra bucks didn't hire illegals they would not come here to work. Poor people come here because there are jobs.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:08 PM EDT
                            DJ-867199Deleted
                            sygh

                            Pinch, The last ten years under NAFTA has forced many Mexicans out of their homes and off of their farms. Millions have been displaced. It was bad enough down there as it was, as corrupt as their governmental system was/is.

                            However, we need to create jobs, create business. I have gone back to school at 52 and have run into so many issues related to finances, at this point I'm stuck in the middle but I see a career in the energy industry and as well as all of the offshoots of getting wiser about what we can create to utilize energy, change the concept of energy. I'm so excited, I can hardly contain myself, I can't wait to get my hands on research and development tools I wish someone in the industry would hire me and put me in a think tank or a war room for working with Tesla's theories (more, to dream what has yet to be dreamed) and creating inventions the world can an will benefit from! Then, I wake up and see the stagnation...

                            I want a JOB in the industry, while I finish university, and by the way, it's the second time for me too. I'm in no position to start my own business but if I were, I can think of a bunch of businesses that would do VERY WELL that is ~if we didn't get taxed to death. Stiffling!!!!!!!!!! I feel so trapped!!!!!!!!!

                            We don't need governmental socialism, we need ideas and businesses that put up saying, this is the way to go and this is successful living going forward...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we shouldn't allow our government to tax and stifle us and our ideas into oblivion!!!!! But business MUST be responsible and people who work in those businesses must think holistically, if we are to survive.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.6 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                            Gloria-627793

                            This is half meant as a joke: "Look for the union label, when you are buying a shirt, dress or blouse. We work hard. We aren't complaining...." It is an old TV song ad. We lost our manufacturing base.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.7 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
                            Longhair

                            schmadrian, NAFTA shifted the manufacturing jobs from Canada & USA to Mexico.

                            Since Mexico's labor wasn't cheap enough the manufacturing jobs moved to South America - I worked at a factory that brought in brake rotors from SA only to be re-boxed with a Made In America sticker on the outside (they just left out South).

                            Then the clinton - China connection was in full effect by the mid 90's and the rest is poverty.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.8 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:30 PM EDT
                            islay

                            Only one point about NAFTA and Clinton. While it is true that Clinton was a free trader, it was wholly out of the norm for a Democrat to be a free trader. As the stereotype goes, Democrats are controlled by the labor unions and labor unions are mostly against free trade. REPEAT: as the stereotype goes. The Republican Congress as well as Republican tradition had been supportive of free trade. Certainly GHW Bush was a free trader.

                            So here's my point. Clinton was a different type of Democrat who supported free trade in a bi-partisan manner. Now, 12-13 years later, Clinton takes heat from conservatives who simply don't buy into the argument that free trade is in the best interests of the US and blame Clinton for NAFTA. It's no wonder bi-partisanship generally doesn't work.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.9 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:39 PM EDT
                            blueingoregon

                            You guys are all wrong the problem is not illegals they have been here for decades and had little impact! The problem is nafta and cafta and golbalization. Reagan made it easy for companies to move off shore, he ended the tariffs. We need to go back to a tariff system, like China. We pay big bucks to ship our stuff into their country, mean while their workers are protected and have manufacturing jobs. We need more protectionists laws to protect the workers we have and to create more industrial jobs. If we let the wages drop here, our back yard will look like India! Did any one see the Amazing Race this week in India? Their living conditions are terrible! That is what corportate greed can do when labor is unregulated.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.10 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:01 PM EDT
                            Jack-819162

                            Do you want to work on minimum wage? If yes, there are manufacturing jobs right here hiring poor immigrants without pay-raise, without health insurance, without anything except $ (or even lower pay illegally), and proudly labeled with "Made in America". Or you can be a good-pay auto-worker assuming Americans stop buying Japanese cars.

                            • 2 votes
                            #4.11 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:54 PM EDT
                            avg-joe

                            The illegals have been here for decades, but the notion they haven't had an effect is nonsense. They're the reason why construction jobs pay the same today as they did 20+ years ago, while prices of everything else have continued to go up.

                            We've been living in the midst of a credit bubble pumping trillions of dollars into our economy, a bubble which reached its peak several years ago. One would think that, in such an environment, wages would naturally go up. However, since 2000, inflation-adjusted wages have been nearly stagnant.

                            The reason why is pretty obvious when you think about it. Millions of jobs went offshore, with most blue collar jobs going to China and most white collar jobs going to India. Jobs that couldn't be offshored went to illegal immigrants and foreign workers here on H-1B and L-1 foreign worker visas.

                            Up to this point, the effects were limited to wage deflation, but not any longer. These policies are creating very real problems for millions of US workers, and they will have to get fixed sooner or later. The influence of multinational corporations and foreign special interest groups is strong on the Hill, so my guess is that mass protests will ultimately be required to change the minds of our "representatives". In the mean time, look for more food stamp recipients and tent cities coming to a vacant lot near you.

                            • 2 votes
                            #4.12 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:02 PM EDT
                            PINCH

                            sygh

                            You are absolutely on the right track. People are preparing for businesses both large and small, involving all sorts of research into new energy sources and applications (and yes, everybody is looking seriously into Tesla). Don't for a minute give up on the possibility of starting your own business. The government just opened a division to finance start-up money for energy-related small businesses, with all sorts of loans and tax breaks. You could have exactly what you are dreaming about all for yourself. Be your own think tank!

                            Go for it! I wish you all the luck in the world, but with your enthusiasm, you probably won't need it. You are the future this country is waiting for.

                            • 1 vote
                            #4.13 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:03 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            soybean101Deleted
                            American Pie

                            This is all wonderful.

                            However, if you do not have the MONEY to go to college, you are pretty much screwed. College is extremely expensive. Even community colleges cost over $350 for one 3-credit class. Other schools and universities cost three to four times that for one single class! How do people pay for it?

                            My husband has been unemployed since January. For 10 years he was a buyer for a manufacturing company that makes wallboard for the building industry. Needless to say, the company went belly-up. He cannot find work in his field, even with his 10 years experience, supposedly because...he doesn't have a 4-year college degree. This is all BS if you ask me. What employers REALLY want are young, fresh faces, with nonarthritic limbs, and hearts that aren't prone to attack. They're not interested in middle-aged men.

                            So I hope these discriminatory employers discover their young, fresh-faced college graduate in the company bathroom doing a line of blow, or having sex with another young, fresh-faced college graduate in a car out in the company parking lot. It would be just what they deserve and more.

                              Reply#6 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
                              BigPaul

                              Nothing American Pie about that outlook.

                              What those make-over recruiters do not tell you is that you have to be willing to leave where you are at and move to somewhere else to find a job - even if it costs you your current home. Your husband has transferrable skills - he understands scheduling, basic finances, just-in-time inventory to name a few. He needs to look into an industry where he can utilize these skills. One that comes to mind is building maintenence and shipping / receiving - look in the hospital industry or something connected to a government job - Do you have any idea how much the GSA purchases every year? Good luck!

                              • 2 votes
                              #6.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:50 AM EDT
                              elock

                              So I hope these discriminatory employers discover their young, fresh-faced college graduate in the company bathroom doing a line of blow, or having sex with another young, fresh-faced college graduate in a car out in the company parking lot. It would be just what they deserve and more.

                              Just... wow. That's really offensive to a young college grad like me who works very hard for a living, and acts in an ethical & professional manner.

                              The plain & simple fact is that you have to be competitive in the job force. If you don't have a degree, it makes you less qualified than if you had one. Sorry, but that's how it works, which is why I went to college. People young & old are getting a college education, as this article was pointing out. My mother has been out of school for two decades and she's going back for a Ph.D. You can sign up to take affordable online classes, and there is lots of financial aid for those out there who need it. I'm sure as an unemployed person your husband would qualify.

                              It's been my experience that some middle-aged people in the workplace are kind of set in their ways. Many resist learning new technology in favor of pushing something 10 years old and dying. They don't respect people our age, as your comments clearly indicate. However, they're easy to find but not the majority. I work with a bunch of very cool, respectful, progressive middle-aged men. I've learned a whole lot from them. But they all have college degrees.

                              • 1 vote
                              #6.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
                              PINCH

                              BigPaul

                              Unfortunately, you are right on target. For people who are "settled", the jobs you want are always somewhere else.

                              Not every one can just pick up and move. Houses aren't selling right now, and if one person in the household is working, the other would have to leave for a job. That amounts to setting up two households which negates the goal in the first place.

                              • 1 vote
                              #6.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
                              elock

                              American Pie, you should also do some research on how hard it is for recent grads to find jobs these days. Everybody is affected.

                              • 2 votes
                              #6.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
                              conscience-894525

                              AMerican Pie - thanks for the chuckle. I enjoyed the visual your comment brought to mind about young, fresh-faced grads. I HAVE witnessed some of that behavior in people in my life experience.

                              I was laid off in late 2008 only because I worked in the commerical real estate investment industry & the company was/is teatering on the edge of collapse. I am in the over age 40 category & finding it hard to get work WITH a 4 year degree, 15 years of experience, a stellar work history, references, connections, AND a certification. I'd like to blame it on age discrimination, but I think the reality of it is that there is just NOT enough movement in the job market right now to accommodate all of us displaced workers - blue collar, white collar, educated, experienced, college grads - you name it. If you were one of the unlucky ones standing too close to the financial implosion due to the widespread greed & corruption that's occurred - you've lost your job. You & I will have to wait until the "marketplace" and consumer sentiment feels more positive - THEN employers might feel safe enough to begin hiring experience, startup companies MIGHT be able to get credit to conduct business, etc. I also agree that it is very possible some fundamental things have changed. Not sure what/how, but we'll all find out as things unfold.

                              • 1 vote
                              #6.5 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:02 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              BamaBlows.Deleted
                              maint-870932

                              America needs to manufacture all of the goods that we use here at home... Global economics do not work for the working people in this country ( the middle class ) No More Imports or tax them enough to pay down our deficit!!!No manufacturing= Trade imbalance = deficit.... New World Order Sucks for average Americans... Any American that tells you different is profiting from your pain... Take Care Of America First..... It is time for protectionism... We cant all work in health care or for the government..

                              • 3 votes
                              Reply#8 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
                              DJ-867199Deleted
                              willie-749103

                              You won't be able to pay down ANYTHING if we close our trade borders. You will be paying 10 times or more for the same goods. You are probably one of those folks who thinks raising minimum wage has no effect on the price of goods here.

                              • 1 vote
                              #8.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:28 PM EDT
                              PINCH

                              maint

                              You are right that not everyone can work in health care or for the government. But we are a global economy and to institute protectionism would cripple our own economy even further. It would not really hurt other countries nearly as much as us, since they would all still be in the sandbox. Only we would be outside looking in.

                              It would also make us a lot of enemies (subtle and not so subtle) around the world. We don't need any more of that either. Unfortunately, the auto industry has already clearly demonstrated that we have lost our competitive edge in manufacturing, and our standard of living has made us uncompetitive in other areas as well. I don't argue that we could "do it better", but we want more in return, and we can't afford it.

                              What we need to do is develop new types of jobs that cannot be outsourced. We need to accept the fact that these new jobs will require higher levels of education and more flexibility in skill sets. But they will be ours.

                              • 3 votes
                              #8.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
                              DJ-867199Deleted
                              islay

                              Pinch,

                              I agree with you. Protectionism is suicidal. In my opinion, we all have to face up to the fact that this is not 1957 any longer and America does not dominate the world economy the way we did then. We import our energy, we import our manufacturing and we import our global services. On the plus side though, we have a tremendously stable democracy, a university system that is the envy of the world, an infrastructure that is safe and well regulated and a tradition of law and order. We just have to channel our intellect and creativity in the right directions.

                              • 1 vote
                              #8.5 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
                              blueingoregon

                              islay, why can't we be a dominate in the world economy again. Yes the price of goods will go up in a protectionist economy, but incomes will follow. We have the best and brightest people in this country who just need an oportunity.

                              I live in Portland and see our best companies insourcing good paying jobs, jobs that americans should be doing, to people from the middle east. Intel states the US doesn't have the techonological skills needed to work at their plant. I say rubbish!

                              Why are we, the consumer, letting corporations take jobs away from US. Does anyone remember when Walmart was "Made in America" now you can't find something made in the US. Not even the produce is American grown, strawberries in February, it's unnatural. I choose not to shop at Walmart, if we all stopped shopping there until they change their business practices, I bet you'd see American products again overnight! The .02 I save on a gallon of milk is not worth putting an American out of a job! I also don't use Fastchecks, I would rather stand in line a save a job than go the automated way.

                                #8.6 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
                                islay

                                blue,

                                I would love to be able to say that the US had the resources to produce everything Americans wanted to buy. Unfortunately we don't. A good place to start though would be the development of a sustainable energy independent framework.

                                Secondly, we are a free market based system (contrary to what many on the vine would argue) and the assumption with a free market system is that competition is always better for the consumer and better for innovation than a closed system. Just think about the technologies that were invented in the US during the fifties that were never exploited in this country until they finally made their way to Japan.

                                America was dominant in the fifties because we had no competition. However, in order for democracies to grow, their economies also need to grow. That means competition grows also. We couldn't keep the deck stacked forever.

                                And finally, WalMart is probably one of the greatest examples of free market capitalism the world has ever seen. I'm not saying they're nationalistic or patriotic and certainly not benevolent, but they do produce profits for their shareholders and jobs for their employees. Like it or not, that's what American capitalism is all about.

                                • 1 vote
                                #8.7 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:51 PM EDT
                                BigPaul

                                While many on this blog may not understand this, a protectionist attitude is exactly what the average America joe does not want. If we go down that road, the average middleclass person / family will not be able to afford the nice-to-haves as they have today. These items will be priced out of their reach and rather quickly. Basic goods (food, gas, etc.) will increase in price overnight and leaving little to no disposable income that they have today. It will generate a two-class system in this country like never before!

                                  #8.8 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:20 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  Goody-668231

                                  What this article completely ignores is the fact that without manufacturing, production, etc. - there simply are not enough decent-paying jobs in this country anymore. Further, the purchasing power of the average american is lower than it was in 1950. If unskilled workers start getting bachelor degrees, business will start requiring masters degrees. If they get master's degrees, business will expect doctorates. This is because there just aren't enough jobs to go around. This will become more and more the case in the "new economy," where people find it impossible to mindlessly consume as they did in the past, corporations start offering lower and lower pay, inflation rises, and government is powerless to do much of anything but prop up the lifestyle of the top 2% of citizens (fine with them, since that's their goal anyway).

                                  If we had any sense as a people (which we clearly do not, so don't hold your breath), we'd reject the american version of "capitalism" (aka corporatism) and move toward locally-sustainable economies and a more agrarian way of life. We need to reorganize our communities, turn strip malls into town centers, cover some of the newer roads with community gardens, grass and central parks, and reduce our dependence on cars. We need to work to eliminate crushing poverty - because if we don't, when this zombie economy REALLY collapses, we are going to see social unrest on a scale no generation alive can even recall.

                                  The question is, really, how stupid are we? Are we stupid enough to believe that the ruling elite are going to just keep handing us $50,000 a year - which will mean reducing their own way of life? Are we stupid enough to go back to accepting millions of offers for stupid credit so that we can prop up an elite population that lives off the rest of us like parasites while they make us work longer hours for less pay and destroy our children's future? Are we stupid enough to keep sending republicans and democrats to Washington, to serve the interests of their corporate masters and a tiny group of billionaires while our centers of production are sent to China - one of the worst despotic regimes to ever exist? Are we stupid enough to allow our ecological base to be annihilated - and thus our ability to be healthy, to grow nontoxic food, to drink safe clean water?

                                  Unfortunately, the answer is probably, yeah, we are that stupid. But maybe, just maybe, there are a FEW of us left who are still brave enough, honest enough, and intelligent enough to move toward some NEW way of life - before we end up living in worldwide squalor.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  Reply#9 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
                                  PINCH

                                  Goody

                                  Good news! Not all of us are that stupid. There are thousands and thousands of people in this country who are not that stupid and have been as vocal (albeit not always as eloquent as you have just been) as possible about the very things you are saying.

                                  The job structure in this country is going to change. A lot of people are resisting that and will probably continue to do so. But the change is already starting. People who think this "recession" will pass like others have and everything will go back to "normal" are wishing.

                                  But we will have a well-rounded economy and a thriving private business sector. It will just be focused differently. And yes, it will require different (and sometimes more) education and new skill sets.

                                  And it will require people to rely less on the "capital" in capitalism and more on the "social" in socialism. When we can all start acting in the best interests of our neighbors, neighborhoods, towns/cities, and finally a single country, we will be able to move ahead again.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #9.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT
                                  blueingoregon

                                  Do you guys remember the days when you knew everyone on your block? I could do anything wrong within a mile of house because my mother would know before my foot hit the stoop. We all care about each other, our neighbor would share produce from his garden with us, the neighbor across the street would bring us some fish from his trip. My grandfather use to work on everyones car or home when they needed help.

                                  I really miss the days when we cared for each other instead of competed against each other.Socialism can bring community, and capitalism where we are all competing against our neighbors to have the nicest car, the biggest tv, can bring greed and opulence. I love shopping, but I would also like to not have to compete for everything!

                                    #9.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:35 PM EDT
                                    islay

                                    Goody,

                                    A well written and thoughful post. Thanks.

                                    I especially liked your statement...

                                    we are going to see social unrest on a scale no generation alive can even recall.

                                    and I think that's a point that many people overlook. I would predict it also unless we start making socially progressive, rational choices.

                                      #9.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:12 PM EDT
                                      Greg-281912

                                      Well, I guess if by "social unrest" we mean posting on message boards, then there is indeed a lot of that these day!

                                        #9.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:32 PM EDT
                                        wenzdaeDeleted
                                        Reply
                                        eagle-955983

                                        Don't worry! With all these new mega-Walmarts going up all over the place there will be lots of jobs for everyone!

                                          Reply#10 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
                                          willie-749103

                                          We nned them, how else will China keep getting the cash to loan us for all these screwed up programs?

                                            #10.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:40 AM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Latinways

                                            Curroption Hill - and all these Rich Powerful people that twist the American people.....Just to screw us over at the end...

                                            Just look at it - look how the STOCKS moved......so quickly ......very unusual...

                                            And they say its because all these changes...

                                            I hate it...they manipulate us to think we are dumb

                                              Reply#11 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:27 AM EDT
                                              Bryce D. Anderson

                                              yeah.....all this stuff happened in Florida when I was working at Citicorp Latino in the late 80s.....there was a massive middle management layoff. Yeah...it was new career time for sure....here's what it was too.......people went from being "big shots" hiring and firing people to DELIVERING PIZZAS..........like who wants to hire someone after their 40 let alone 50? I went to this special session held every Thursday put on by the unemployment office to keep people from committing suicide....more or less....people had been ripped off by ALLEN AND ASSOCIATES...(the fake head hunters.....ripoffs).....and all of this stuff..

                                              I didn't tell anyone I was making $700 a week blowing the sax on Miami Beach.....

                                              like HA HA....

                                              America is screwed folks.......the richest are still screwing us......

                                              bda

                                                Reply#12 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:28 AM EDT
                                                willie-749103

                                                Healthcare is only going to be a booming job market until Obama gets his hooks into National Affordable Healthcare then the bottom will fall out of that field. Best way to contain costs, reduce staff.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#13 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:39 AM EDT
                                                Goody-668231

                                                They're already reducing staff. And frankly, if Obama - or someone - doesn't do something about making healthcare affordable soon, the babyboomer retirement health care crisis is going to make the recent economic trouble look like a day at Six Flags.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #13.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:54 AM EDT
                                                willie-749103

                                                Goody - Possibly, except for those of us who took health care costs into consideration LONG before retirement. I guess because we knew it was coming and actually had a plan to get it we now get to pay for those folks who decided a huge house, vacations in Hawaii, new cars etc were far more important than planning a future..hell let uncle sam pay for it...with someone elses money.

                                                I am not as concerned with the cost or who can afford it as I am with the services provided. Anyone who thinks uncle sam does a good job providing affordable healthcare for our vets via VA raise your hand and sign up for the new socialist order.

                                                  #13.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:03 PM EDT
                                                  PINCH

                                                  willie

                                                  As per preparations for healthcare during retirement, if you are that secure, you are in a very small minority. Most people have theirs in insurance or other investments, and we can see those dominoes falling, so they will have no guarantee that the company or the policies will be around when they need them.

                                                  As for the VA, I have seen some excellent facilities delivering exceptional services, and I have seen (and reported on) some abysmal ones. But I have seen the same thing in the private sector. Actually, I would have to say that the most consistent high quality of care is generally found in the not-for-profit "community" hospitals, the teaching hospitals, and the top-end, research-based clinics/hospitals (which are unaffordable to many, even with insurance).

                                                  Every administration for the last several decades has acknowledged that our present health care delivery system in inefficient and overly expensive. We need an administration that will actually have the guts to do something about it. The proposed private/public partnership has potential, but the savings must come from the two industries currently benefiting the most - the pharmaceuticals and the insurance industries. This is killing the seniors, the average American, and small businesses.

                                                  We cannot continue using expensive emergency rooms as ordinary doctors' offices for every cut, scrap, or sniffles. And we cannot have the ordinary person putting off easily and cheaply remedied problems until they do require hospital care, all because of lack of insurance.

                                                  It is a different world now. We need to think in terms of "social" order, and not throw the word socialism around just to inflame people. We have had aspects of socialism in this country since its inception, and we are still here.

                                                    #13.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT
                                                    willie-749103

                                                    Like I said Pinch, I am more concerned with the services than the cost or availability. Government run programs are already stiffling the business since they dictate what they will pay for whatever. A couple bucks from Medicare for an office visit, get real. It is only going to get worse since Obama plans on funding his program mostly through savings in medicare....I am not saying there is not room for improvement I just know how Uncle Sam operates and to make healthcare part of an annual budget is just asking for trouble, the first thing to get axed is people followed by facilities and rarely, administrators.

                                                    There is no simple fix but a good start would be refusing to treat ANYONE who is not a citizen unless they can pay upfront. Take some of the funds already being spent to treat sniffles in expensive ER's and open urgent care clinics.

                                                    As for drug companies making money, I am sorry but that is their source for R&D funds. If you limit their profits you can forget getting new drugs out there unless uncle sam is willing to pony up more of OUR money to do it. Again, if people did not properly plan for retirement that is NOT my problem. I don't care if their drugs cost 2 grand, it is not my problem.

                                                      #13.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                                                      Wake Up To Reality

                                                      Just to comment on your statement of "if people did not properly plan for retirement". THERE ARE A LOT OF US THAT ARE TRYING!!" EVEN when some people are living well below their means and socking up savings and trying to invest properly for their futures, sometimes, crisis comes barreling in and blows away all they've got. So pretty tacky and careless of you to presume that the rest of us are inept.

                                                        #13.5 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:36 PM EDT
                                                        DJ-867199Deleted
                                                        PINCH

                                                        willie

                                                        Relative to the health care proposal, the bulk of the savings have never been proposed to come out of Medicare. That nasty rumor has to be stopped. It is not nice to scare the seniors.

                                                        If you actually read the legislation (and I'll be the first one to admit it is not an exciting or easy endeavor), you would find it actually addresses one of your other concerns. The initial part that has passed will consolidate all existing databases from the insurance companies and the government into one electronic database.

                                                        This will have some small but significant effects: doctors' prescriptions and instructions for procedures will actually be legible, you won't have to fill out the same pages of papers every time you see a different doctor or hospital, in an emergency, people will actually know immediately how to treat you properly, and your doctor and or nurse will be able to spend more time on you and less on paper.

                                                        But the real cost savings are the bigger effects: a comprehensive database will save lives and reduce lawsuits by notifying doctors/hospitals of contraindications or repetitive procedures, and instances of fraud would be easily and quickly dealt with. These are significant savings, especially in the Medicaid program. The human evaluators just cannot catch the things a large electronic system can.

                                                        The tracking of drugs and prescriptions would catch inappropriate dispensations, since those often escape the tracking systems whem different doctors and pharmacy chains are used. Many of these end up on the streets.

                                                        The final step in this electronic world will be a database of "best practices", an optional service available to doctors allowing them to compare different treatments for the same condition. Often there are pharmaceuticals (often generic) that have been proven as effective or even more effective than surgical intervention with fewer side effects. Or a day-stay procedure might be better than a longer, more involved inpatient operation. The estimates from a number of studies show this service could save tens of millions of dollars a year, minimum. Most doctors simply don't have time to keep up on all the latest journal research, so it would be already available to them on their computer. Of course, a doctor who thinks they already know it all or who really likes WebMD doesn't have to take advantage of this.

                                                        In short, a lot of human administration will be eliminated and a lot of human frustration and real suffering will also be eliminated. And fraud, waste, and downright sloppy work will be gone. Doctors will have more time for patients and some might even become more competent. These savings will pay for themselves very quickly.

                                                        The rest of the changes are still in proposal form and may get changed later, but if you want I can tell you what is in them too. I will also be glad to explain the huge holes in drug companies' "we need our R&D money" argument. I'm sorry, but it's a sham. They don't even do a lot of their own R&D, and some of what they do is funded by (drumroll please) the taxpayers! Anyway, this overhaul has been discussed since Truman, but personally, I don't think we had the technology to pull it off until now and really save any money. Now I do.

                                                          #13.7 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:06 PM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          Latinways

                                                          Too lose all these benefits and pay us a lower wage.....and we getting into debt because of THEM!!

                                                          THAT RIGHT THERE IS A OUTRAGE !!

                                                          ...No matter where you go they Have you by the B@LLS !!

                                                            Reply#14 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:42 AM EDT
                                                            Jtrom

                                                            What happened to taking responsibility for yourself and not blaming others? You're getting into debt because of 'them' or is it because of your choices?

                                                              #14.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                                                              chris-335678

                                                              No, you got into debt because of YOU! Blame yourself and no one else.

                                                                #14.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:36 PM EDT
                                                                Latinways

                                                                OK LETS ALL THINK A PERFECT SOCIETY - where we dont get in debt - that things dont fall like they did...You have to blame someone for this outcry.

                                                                and Government - has done this shift for people to lose

                                                                  #14.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:47 PM EDT
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Alan GioannettiDeleted
                                                                  deroty

                                                                  "The Manufacturing Sector Is Shedding Jobs"

                                                                  Well.....duhhhhhh. Could it be because WE CAN'T MAKE ANYTHING IN THIS COUNTRY ANYMORE?

                                                                  "Job Growth Will Be In Healthcare"

                                                                  Does that tell you anything about our country? Once the most prolific manufacturer on the planet, we have become so lazy, complacent, spoiled and STUPID that not only can we not make a goddamn thing, but our leading "industry" is HELATHCARE - a necessity to take care of the fat-assed Americans who have done nothing their entire lives but "consume" crap and sit around stuffing their pie holes.

                                                                    Reply#16 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:25 PM EDT
                                                                    elock

                                                                    Actually, it's that our power is in our intellectual capabilities. We design the things other countries build. When the Industrial Revolution occured people like you were hemming and hawing about moving away from a rural life into goods production. The simple fact is that manufacturing goods has really only been a career for 100 years, and in that amount of time it's managed to wreak havoc on our planet.

                                                                    Keep in mind that we still grow a LOT of food. A lot. We sell lots of it to other countries. We also have lots of raw materials -- which we can sell. And people from all over the world come to the U.S. for college, creating a demand for education. The jobs that are being now actually require way more brains than an assembly line job.

                                                                    Sounds to me like another disgruntled laid-off factory worker.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT
                                                                    PINCH

                                                                    elock

                                                                    You made some excellent points. A lot of people thought (and are still thinking) that this "recession" will end, like others in the past have, and everything will return to "normal". The fact is that we will need to reinvent this society, and it will be much different.

                                                                    The jobs will be different too, and will generally require more education and a more flexible set of skills. As you said, we are a country of new ideas, and the old ones are now in the countries that didn't think of them. So we need to remember that there is no finite number of new ideas, get busy thinking and discovering, and move ahead.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
                                                                    elock

                                                                    Yep pinch! I'm glad somebody sees my point. There's no way anybody even 25 years ago could have predicted what the Internet did for workers & businesses.

                                                                    I should have also said that the jobs being MADE now require more brains than an assembly line gig. I happen to think that's a freaking fantastic thing.

                                                                    Another industry that we should expect to see growth in is entertainment & new media. We already supply a pretty good amount of movies to the world. I know a lot of people are like, "Yeah, so what?" but think of all the writers, costume designers, set builders, camera operators, etc. that go into making a movie or TV show. There's a whole city built around it!

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:48 PM EDT
                                                                    islay

                                                                    Just to add one point to the comments above....

                                                                    Some of us seem to think that somehow the continuance of a decent standard of living and a meaningful safety net is just not within our grasp. I think we're looking at it the wrong way. For example, how do BMW and Porsche manage to remain two of the most profitable car companies in the world, while Germany remains one of the most socially progressive countries on the planet?

                                                                    As long as we chase the lowest common denominator of global wages, our wages, benefits and safety net will erode. We must elevate our standards, our goals and our preparation. That is the only way we will prosper in a global market.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:10 PM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    vinca

                                                                    I have a BS degree in engineering and I am working in high tech. But, I see the handwriting on the wall.

                                                                    Therefore, I am currently taking classes to become an RN. Although, I won't get to start the official program until 2011.

                                                                    When I graduate, I will be 53-years-old. But, I will have a job that can't be outsourced to India.

                                                                      Reply#17 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:26 PM EDT
                                                                      willie-749103

                                                                      Wanna bet? Go into virtually any hospital in the USA and see what the make up of the staff is...I will give you a hint, it ain't fellow Americans.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #17.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:29 PM EDT
                                                                      Lisa-533874

                                                                      I'm sorry...you might want to rethink your decision. The pay is not good (start at 15-18/hour) and as a new employee you will be working the bad shifts...nights, weekends, holidays. They ARE laying off nurses. In one week, 5 in my department of 40. Don't listen to wehat the "experts" have to say. They don't know and don't care...

                                                                        #17.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT
                                                                        mojo31979

                                                                        Vinca, don't let someone else s exposure influence your decision. Because I have the exact opposite experience. I guess it all depends on where you live then. The hospital I work at starts pay at $22/hr minimum and that's just with a 2 year degree. Even our RT's start at $18/hr. Supply and demand I suppose, but at least as a nurse I have mobility. I can go almost anywhere and find a job.

                                                                        And Willie, your ignorance is showing. Hospital staffs are made up of many different occupations and people. All of which pay taxes and contribute to society. My Co-worker named Samir was born in the U.S. He's a U.S. citizen, went to school in the U.S. and pays his taxes just like the rest of us. But idiots like you see his name and automatically assume he's an immigrant.

                                                                        If your not willing to take a chance and go back to school then yes, companies have no choice then to hire outside simply based on the lack of educated Americans. The jobs of the future involve more and more technology and a streamlined manufacturing process. People need specialized and generalized training in these fields, and the best to to obtain that training is through school.

                                                                        I truly am sorry for all the people that have been laid off due to outsourcing and our crumbling economy, especially the older generation that dont have as many options available to them. But adaptability is one of the main qualities in the human spirit that allows us to overcome adversity and hardship. If my job get's pushed into the toilet then I'll find another career. I don't care what I have to do, my family is more important then my pride.

                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                        #17.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
                                                                        PINCH

                                                                        I don't know where everyone else lives, but in my area there is a severe shortage of nurses. Our schools can't keep up so they are recruiting from all over the country, and yes, from overseas. I see the situation getting worse for some time to come, and the aging baby boomers will increase the demand.

                                                                        The reason education is on the list of growing industries is because a lot of people are going to have to retrain. We are not going to get the "old" jobs back in a lot of areas, but we will have the opportunity to use our innovative talents to create entire new industries.

                                                                        What this "recession" tells us, unlike the little ones of the past, is that we will need to make some changes in our entire social system. The past is in the rear-view mirror, but fortunately, the future is right on the horizon and inside each and every human spirit.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #17.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
                                                                        cheryl-411434

                                                                        Vinca, stick with your plan... I too went back to school to become an RN. I had been wanting to do it for years, but things just didn't fall in place until later in life. I was 38 when I graduated. The oldest in my class was in her mid 50's. My first degree was a 4 year degree in Business in 1990. There is a nursing shortage, and hospitals would rather fill their open slots with American citizens. If you are in a union state, your starting wage will be more likely $22 an hour plus full medical benefits if you work more than 24 hours week in a hospital. Educational benefits are outstanding. Now the work is HARD. Don't kid yourself, and with budgets getting tighter it is getting even more difficult. The work is physical, and messy and patients and their family's can be ungrateful and sometimes down right abusive (verbally and physically). You need to be as error proof as humanly possible. You need a big backbone to advocate for what you know is right for your patients. You will see some very, very sad situations. You need thick skin, and a very kind heart. But, at times, it is soooooo rewarding. You will never forget the first life you made a difference in. I promise you that. Everytime I think about the young mothers life I played an integral part in saving, I tear up. We as a nursing team (and doctors of course) worked on her day and night after day and night after day and night. She should not have lived. Statistics say she should not have lived, but she walked out of the hospital in 3 weeks and comes to visit us with pictures of the baby every year on the anniversary. It was my first true, "I helped save a life" moment. I will carry that with me always.. Those are the moments that make it worth it. You will not get rich being a nurse, but you will make a decent living. You will however lead a very rich life being a nurse.

                                                                          #17.5 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:34 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          easwar

                                                                          Kudos to this story. What a wonderful concept. Instead of relying on the government to give you hand outs people actually go to school and change according to the way the world is changing. This is a global economy and people wh are competing for your jobs are not in the next town or county but in distant foreign countries. Like it or not but with digital age nothing is too far. Halting the H1b visas and so on will only help so much because the companies will simply move the jobs elsewhere! There is a day when they do not need American products or markets. The only way is for people to get better educated as in this story and become somebody. Getting handouts as most Obama supporters are counting on is armageddon for America! This is not what government can just mandate, it has to come from within America and needs fundamental change in people's mentality!

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          Reply#18 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:28 PM EDT
                                                                          PINCH

                                                                          easwar

                                                                          What a perfect synopsis of our current situation. So many people are still looking in the rearview mirror and waiting for the car to turn around and take us back. They are missing all the new possibilities ahead.

                                                                          We have always been an innovative and creative people. That's why so many countries use our ideas for things. The number of ideas is not finite. We have not exhausted our supply by a long shot. But new and different education and more flexible skill sets are within the reach of everyone. Even seniors are back in school.

                                                                          We need to reinvent our country. Our brains will save us first. The work for the hands will follow.

                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                          #18.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT
                                                                          BigPaul

                                                                          Positive postings - refreshing!

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          #18.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:07 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          LD 71954

                                                                          e-lock

                                                                          I don't think a College Degree makes you an authority..

                                                                          I don't have a College Degree.. Have taken College Courses.. I have worked 32 years for a company in the Trucking Industry that because of the economy is suffering right now.

                                                                          Do you plan on working for the same company for 32 years or are you going to work for multiple companies in your life ?

                                                                          I am from the age group that believed in the American Dream and believed you worked for one company till you retired.

                                                                          I don't believe a College Degree makes you smart. In fact one of my College Professors said that when he had students that just got their degree and went to work he told them to look for a worker that had been at the Company for a while. That worker could teach you things you could not learn in a book..

                                                                            Reply#19 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:30 PM EDT
                                                                            elock

                                                                            I never said that a college degree equals authority. You only get authority on something when you've done it for a long time and can earn the respect of your colleagues. A degree does, however, make you more qualified, especially if you're comparing somebody with equal experience that does not have a degree.

                                                                            No, I don't plan on working for the same company for 32 years! That doesn't happen. Chances are pretty good that the company I work for won't even exist. I do plan on using my experience to open my own company some day though. It's great that you've been able to work the same job for 32 years, but that's just not an option for my generation. I don't see how me being realistic about that makes my point or value as an employee any less valid. I believe in the American Dream too, bud -- I'm from Irish immigrants -- and I'm well on my way with my car, my 1st home purchase (Friday yay!), a GREAT EDUCATION, and the goal to be my own boss.

                                                                            I don't think a college degree makes you smart, but as you've shown with your errors in grammar & usage, it does come in handy for some things, i.e., knowing how to write well and make an argument. It teaches you critical thinking, and creates tons of networking opportunities.

                                                                            The bottom line is that being good at any job requires experience and knowledge about what you're doing. I know that. But if you've got one person with a degree, and one person without, who would you hire? At least you know the person with the degree had the discipline to work for something concrete & attainable.

                                                                            How can any of you actually think that a degree is a bad thing?

                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                            #19.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:41 PM EDT
                                                                            mark-638458

                                                                            I agree completely. College is a lot more than just "book learning". It's an experience in critical thinking and how to approach problems and to think logically. In my business (engineering), I run into many cranky people without degrees who are constantly trying to belittle the value of a degree. But, in reality, it's all about their own insecurity and trying to make themselves feel better about their previous choice to not pursue a degree. If you have found a way to be gainfully employed without going to college, more power to you. I have no issue with their ability to produce many products and services. But don't make idiotic statements implying that any advanced knowledge can possibly be a bad thing. Or maybe you wouldn't mind if your doctor, or the engineer who designed your DVD player, or the airplane that you are flying on, or that computer you are typing on, or the automobile you are driving, were all designed by high school graduates or self taught individuals.

                                                                            Based on many of the responses that I see here, including grammar, sentence construction, logic and demeanor, I can easily pick out the ones without any advanced education. I am still laughing at "American Pie"s comment. Where can I find this parking lot, By the way? Are you working there?

                                                                              #19.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT
                                                                              PINCH

                                                                              LD

                                                                              Both of the posters who responded to you are correct. The reality is that this society is changing. We need to move in a new direction, and the fact is it will require more advanced education and more flexible skills. The idea of working for the same company all you life and then getting a gold watch and a pension is in the rearview mirror. We will not be able to turn this car around. It's not just us. It's a global economy now.

                                                                              Our new country will depend on new creative and innovative ideas and the discipline to plan and carry them out. Communication, written and oral, and problem solving skills will be critical, as will be the use of constant formative evaluative strategies. Directions, and therefore jobs, will change constantly for a time while we get our feet on this new ground.

                                                                              Try to think of and prepare for an exciting adventure instead of bemoaning the past we will all miss parts of. It's time to move ahead.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #19.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:27 PM EDT
                                                                              LD 71954

                                                                              I did not say that an education was a bad thing. I said that a college education did not make e-lock the authority or smarter than anybody else.

                                                                              And e-lock check your spelling you had some errors.. but I won't hold that against you.

                                                                              We are voicing our opinion here not writing a book.

                                                                              I don't bemoan the past just at my age starting over is a little harder than if I was 24. Not impossible I know just a little harder to accept.

                                                                              e-lock my family has (3) cars paid off.. Yey.. and a (30) year mortgage that we only owe (4) years on Double Yey.. and I wish you well.

                                                                              LD

                                                                                #19.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:47 PM EDT
                                                                                elock

                                                                                I never claimed to be smarter than anybody else. I am, but I never said that until now. :-)

                                                                                BTW the only spelling error I could find was that I left an r out of occurred. But I'm typing with a freaking broken arm, which I think buys me one typo in 6 posts. I still maintain that my post is composed better than yours, which is still better than about 90% of what I read on Newsvine. That proves that my fancy-pants learning went to somewhere, as daily written communication is essential to my job performance.

                                                                                  #19.5 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:35 PM EDT
                                                                                  LD 71954

                                                                                  e-lock

                                                                                  You did not have to say what you thought of yourself. It showed in your message..

                                                                                    #19.6 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:43 AM EDT
                                                                                    mel-960075

                                                                                    Hilarious, Elock and LD.... We need discussions like this. I am so on the fence these days about college education vs. experience. In 2001 I graduated from a Big Ten Univ., finally, after taking 10 frickin yrs. to do it. I really screwed up college because I was not absolutely sure what I wanted to do. Turns out I ended up w/ a worthless degree, a mid 5-figure mound of student loan debt, and ended up working in the mortgage industry for the last 6 yrs! I've probably had 15 jobs in the last 3 yrs and was eventually forced to move back to Michigan from Florida. How screwed am I? I am now, much like the rest of you, working for much less than I was and have had to move back in w/ my parents. At 35!! Sure, I have considered going back to school, but how is that a reality when I can't afford it? I could do it and come out owing more and making less...Forget about buying a home or even renting my own place. I am truly...STUCK. As one individual - in my situation - the only solution seems to be to work 3 jobs just so I can move out. Of course, I won't have a life or any time to myself, let alone the option of furthering my education. Retirement, savings, HEALTH INSURANCE - what is that??? For me, those are all luxuries that I cannot ever afford.

                                                                                    So, back to the degree thing. I am not so sure that I would have done it if I had known. I am proud to have my BS, but at the same time the whole point of getting it seems moot these days....There are just no guarantees in this economy. I guess that is my point. Do what makes sense. Fiscally, economically, emotionally....This is a different climate and we all have to adapt regardless of age, job title, or education. :)

                                                                                    And I only WISH that I could be one of those people who works for a company for 35 yrs, then retires w/ a nice pension and a watch. Those days are over. I am lucky if I can keep a job for a year. My average seems to be 5-6 mo.

                                                                                    P.S. My mom was an RN for 30 yrs. I have considered it.....

                                                                                      #19.7 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:55 PM EDT
                                                                                      elock

                                                                                      And I only WISH that I could be one of those people who works for a company for 35 yrs, then retires w/ a nice pension and a watch. Those days are over. I am lucky if I can keep a job for a year. My average seems to be 5-6 mo.

                                                                                      Yeah you & me both. I hate job-hunting. I wish I could find a place to be dedicated to, put in my time, and feel like I could retire. Oh well.

                                                                                      I'm not saying that school is for everybody; it's not. But to say your degree is worthless is a little hasty. My point all along is that the combination of a degree and job experience is really what you need to snag a good job. If I were hiring somebody, and I saw Person A had a degree cum laude from Yale but couldn't hold down the same job for a year or more, and Person B has no degree but 5 years of experience, I'd hire Person B in a heartbeat over Person A.

                                                                                      Mel it sounds like you, along with a lot of other people, are in a really sticky spot right now. I'm sorry for that. Just try to figure out what you love & are good at and keep at it, and hopefully you'll be independent and with a great career soon. Best of luck.

                                                                                        #19.8 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:51 PM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                        JobSeeker

                                                                                        What the recession should change is spending habits. We need to learn to save and not have to have everything we want right now on credit. Here we are in a recession for about a year and people are losing houses and now are changing careers. If they had planned ahead and saved for a rainy day, they wouldn't be in the mess they are in. Recessions happen at the end of almost every administration. So, why didn't people see this coming? The rule of thumb is to have enough in the cookie jar to survive a 1-year drought. Everyone should try that after this recession.

                                                                                          Reply#20 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:47 PM EDT
                                                                                          mojo31979

                                                                                          I agree, these days of excess need to stop. People are entitled to what they earn, not what they want. I'm not going into debt for a car much less an HDTV hooked up to an HTPC with 6.1 Dolby Surround sound! I'm fine with what I have, and save the rest...in a bank account and retirement fund. I guess I should be lucky myself and my wife were taught to be fiscally conservative and not live beyond our means.

                                                                                            #20.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT
                                                                                            PINCH

                                                                                            JobSeeker

                                                                                            I definitely hope this "recession" changes people's attitudes towards money. But this is unlike previous recessions. We are in a global economy now, and we can't compete using our old ways of doing things.

                                                                                            We need to also change our way of thinking about how we spend our working lives. The future for us will be in our ideas, which has always been our strength. We will all need more and better education and a more flexible set of skills. And we will need to be more nimble in our thinking and our geographical attachments.

                                                                                            This is the beginning of a new and exciting adventure for our country.

                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                            #20.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:36 PM EDT
                                                                                            sassylady-991483

                                                                                            What about the people, who by no fault of their own, are barely scraping by paycheck to paycheck? Everyone talks a lot about having some money tucked away for a rainy day, but that isn't feasible for everyone. It certainly would be a good idea; but choosing between rent now and the cookie jar is reality for many people.

                                                                                              #20.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:17 PM EDT
                                                                                              JobSeeker

                                                                                              sassylady,

                                                                                              I can understand living from paycheck to paycheck. We all have gone through that, and during those periods, sometimes years, we cannot possibly save anything. But most us have gone through booming economies as well as recessions. It is during the good times that we must take advantage and attempt to put some away. This remains the land of opportunity.

                                                                                                #20.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:40 PM EDT
                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                mark-638458

                                                                                                This guy is getting a PHD at Capella University? That scam outfit is a DEGREE MILL. It's a fake online university that hands out degrees for money. How dumb can he be? Do a Google search on your "school". Why isn't the reporter doing his/her homework? His so called PhD is a fake.

                                                                                                  Reply#21 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
                                                                                                  Goody-668231

                                                                                                  There are fake online schools, but Capella is actually an accredited school. I have a master's in counseling from Penn State, and was considering Capella's PhD in Counseling program - it is accredited by CACREP, which is the most highly-regarded counseling accreditation a school can earn. I decided not to go with Capella in the end, but because they actually cost more than a regular university. But Capella isn't "fake" as far as online schools go. Also, online degrees are gaining respect in the workplace, as they have gained accreditation. My mother's been in counseling for 30 years now, and she said her most recent supervisor was hired with an online degree.

                                                                                                    #21.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:08 PM EDT
                                                                                                    mark-638458

                                                                                                    I am by no means belittling online degree programs. There are some very good online programs out there, including Penn State. Unfortunately Capella has a crappy reputation. Try Googling "Cappella".

                                                                                                    Maybe "Degree Mill" is too strong of a condemnation, but there are some serious questions about their quality. As someone who interviews employment candidates, I regularly check out the reputation and credentials of online educational institutions.

                                                                                                      #21.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:32 PM EDT
                                                                                                      chris-335678

                                                                                                      Shows you are an idiot. Capella is an accredited school. Not that he will get a job anyway. PhD's are a dime a dozen. He is wasting his money. BTW, I am almost done with mine too but I have no intentions of teaching....

                                                                                                        #21.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:39 PM EDT
                                                                                                        PINCH

                                                                                                        The point is to do your "homework" before you enroll in any online courses, especially if you are anticipating a degree. Even with the "right" certifications, not all land schools are equal, and not all online programs are either.

                                                                                                        Be particularly concerned about the transferability of credits, so you can change to another school if you need or want to. And price is not always indicative of quality. Sometimes the qualifications of staff can help. Where did they graduate from? Are they published? Where have they taught before?

                                                                                                        Finally, check with the professional organizations related to the degree you are pursuing. They know their membership and they generally know something about the schools they come from. So if you want to join those professional ranks, listen to their opinions, and try to talk to a few people, not just one.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #21.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:49 PM EDT
                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                        Lisa-533874

                                                                                                        This makes NO SENSE at all...I have been a full-time RN for 32 years! (same hospital) I was laid-off one week ago...I'm sorry, but this is a line of BS...the changes coming down thru the health-care initiatives are causing medical facilities to cut back. Less Medicade/Medicare payments, not money to operate. Who always goes first? The dependable, long-term employees who would do anything for their company and to keep their jobs. Try getting a job at age 52!! I am single, main bread-winner and now I have nothing. Don't try and tell me health care jobs are high in demand. It's a lie...

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        Reply#22 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT
                                                                                                        JobSeeker

                                                                                                        You make it sound like 52 is ancient. There should be plenty of jobs for RN's. You might have to relocate, but it's not the end of the world. How about Arizona, Florida, North Carolina where all the old farts from the north are migrating? They get sick alot.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        #22.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT
                                                                                                        mojo31979

                                                                                                        I can attest to that, I'm in Raleigh and my hospital and many others are hiring RN's. At least as a nurse you have the option to move about. I know you'd have to sell your house and secure the job, of course that would be a bear in this economy. Is there not more than one hospital in your city? Private practice? All areas of the every industry are being effected, no one is invulnerable. The authors personal experince is obviously different than yours. I'm sorry you lost your job, the ones they lay off first are usually the ones that make the most, If your hopital is like mine your maxed on your salary?

                                                                                                          #22.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
                                                                                                          JobSeeker

                                                                                                          mojo is correct. The company I left just had a massive layoff. Most victims were people who were at the top of the wage scale. I guess they figure they will not get much business the next couple of years, so why keep paying these high-end people for doing nothing while they can train the younger ones during the slow period at a much lower cost. If one can wait it out, it can work to his or her advantage. When the economy picks back up, these companies will have a shortage of workers. Many will be willing to hire you back as a contractor and pay a premium for doing so.

                                                                                                            #22.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:50 PM EDT
                                                                                                            PINCH

                                                                                                            Lisa

                                                                                                            I am so sorry to hear about your job loss. But I agree with the previous posters. When there are layoffs, even in industries where nationally there are shortages, the first to go are often the ones costing the most. It happens in education at all levels too, in spite of it being touted as a growth industry.

                                                                                                            Like real estate, it's location, location, location. and that's not good news either, because with the economy as it is, the very people laid off are the ones least able to move.

                                                                                                            But there are serious nursing shortages in many locations, mostly in places where people tend to retire to. In some of those places the shortages are so severe, they are running massive recruitment efforts across the country and even overseas.

                                                                                                            The suggestions to see if you can rearrange your considerable skills for another line of related work are excellent ones. Try to take a little time to recover from this emotionally stressful blow and then see if your creative juices can lead you down a different path.

                                                                                                            My best wishes and good luck.

                                                                                                              #22.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                                              sygh

                                                                                                              Speaking of growing industry, passing a bill that would essentially take our children from the ages of 18-24 and creating a vouluntary program in exchange for an education, while the parents still foot the main bills is yet like another tax without the representation. IN the mean time, our government wants to tax us and our businesses on our "carbon footprints" which I see as the dumbest idea going down the pike because it will stop us from coming up with better ideas, which we can do on our own, if our government would just get back to their business and let us do ours in the private sector! While I agree we should be more socialistic when dealing with one another, following the teachings of Christ, I DO NOT WANT A SOCIALIST AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!

                                                                                                              I am curious, does anyone have the stats on how much money our government allowed the federal reserve to print into existance back in the 30's in comparison to what they are doing now taking inflation into accout, along with the fact that our money was backed in gold back then?

                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                              Reply#23 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:28 PM EDT
                                                                                                              jmonarchy

                                                                                                              It wouldn't be comparable. The population of the US was drastically smaller 80 years ago and the dollar went a lot further then than it does now.

                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                              #23.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:44 PM EDT
                                                                                                              willie-749103

                                                                                                              "our money was backed in gold back then"

                                                                                                              You answered your own question. The amount printed did not exceed the value of the gold (or silver) we held. Once we went off the gold standard they were free to print as much as they wanted to..like 1.2 triilion to buy toxic assets. I would say throwing good money after bad but since it is almost worthless more like throwing worthless money after lost money.

                                                                                                                #23.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT
                                                                                                                chris-335678

                                                                                                                The militia nuts are out today!

                                                                                                                  #23.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                                  PINCH

                                                                                                                  sygh

                                                                                                                  We have had socialism in this democracy almost since the beginning. It simply means that all pay for what not all use.

                                                                                                                  Targeted taxes, like the carbon footprint tax you mentioned, is not socialism. It is regressive, like a sales tax. And this tax is just one proposal at this point. There are a lot of steps before it would happen, if ever. There are new ideas coming all the time.

                                                                                                                  Our society is changing. It has to change if we are to survive as a once more thriving economy. But the old way (pre this so-called "recession") will not be returning. We need to move on to a new adventure. It's time. It's past time. It's almost too late.

                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                  #23.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                  Jim-372206

                                                                                                                  jmonarchy,,,,, The dollar was also much harder to get. Few had access to higher education or even a 12th grade education, they had to support their families & hardly any access to health care. Corporations and the elite controlled government & the states.

                                                                                                                    Reply#24 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
                                                                                                                    PINCH

                                                                                                                    jmonarchy

                                                                                                                    Only your last statement still exists today. Fortunately, we have made some strides in the other areas, but we will have a much longer way now that we will have to reinvent this society when we come out of this "recession".

                                                                                                                    We will need a new society based on creative, innovative ideas. This will mean more and better education and more flexible skill sets.

                                                                                                                    We have more accessible health care now, but it needs to be even more available, especially with the decrease in employment-based options (including those losing theirs because of unemployment). Therefore, we definitely need to reduce the costs, and especially the two major profit-makers' portions - pharmaceuticals and insurance.

                                                                                                                    We are a resilient people, and we can remake this country again, just as we did when we moved from an agrarian society to an industrial one. This will be a hard move for many, but I have great faith that we can accomplish this and be more than satisfied when we see results emerging.

                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                    #24.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:39 PM EDT
                                                                                                                    islay

                                                                                                                    Pinch,

                                                                                                                    Education is the key to success and the key to our country's future. I don't care how many people on this blog disagree. In the final analysis, the only things we have to compete with in a global market are our brains, our ingenuity and our attitudes. When these are combined with the freedoms and the opportunities we enjoy, there isn't anything we can't achieve.

                                                                                                                      #24.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:27 PM EDT
                                                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                                                      Chuck-990278

                                                                                                                      At age 49 and with 27 years in hotel management, I started my Master of Social Work studies last April. My intent was to gain skills for a second career during pseudo-retirement, but now it looks like it will become a full time job very soon. My interest is in helping communities deal with the trauma of chronic unemployment. The more resilient we are, the better off we will be. Hopefully this will combine the need to make money with a feeling of giving back as well.

                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                      Reply#25 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                      PINCH

                                                                                                                      Chuck

                                                                                                                      I think you made an excellent choice, and your previous experience will actually fit right in. Good luck to you and I hope you can help guide others who are only looking at what they can no longer do find a new direction as you have. You will exemplify for them "leading by example",

                                                                                                                        #25.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:46 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        Chuck-990278

                                                                                                                        Hi Pinch, thanks for the words of encouragement. I have told my boys that they will have to re-invent themselves at least five times during their lives, but it is somewhat disconcerting for this old dog to learn new tricks. But, it is thrilling as well.

                                                                                                                        Chuck

                                                                                                                          #25.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:18 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                          Jim-372206

                                                                                                                          sygh,,,,, Get off the "Socialism" garbage ---- You don't want a Socialist Government then don't vote for the American Socialist Party

                                                                                                                          You have other choices on the ballot; Democrat, Republican, Independent, etc.

                                                                                                                          If you need help reading the ballot,, Ask for help,,, The volunteers at the polling places do that

                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                          Reply#26 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:29 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          Jim-372206

                                                                                                                          Another thing you might want to look at Sygh,,,,,, If you don't want "Socialism", keep "Church" out of government & their Faith Based Offices out of government,, they are socialists in many aspects

                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                          #26.1 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                          DealPlayground.com

                                                                                                                          Become an entrepreneur, find your passion and take full advantage of that. There's nothing like working for yourself.

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                                                                                                                            Reply#27 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:48 PM EDT
                                                                                                                            PrideLion

                                                                                                                            Read the article "The Knowledge Worker". It will chronicle the shift from manual labor to knowledge labor.

                                                                                                                            Everything is some form of temporary...it's that greed and short term pressure for profits have accelerated the need for lower wages and higher profits.

                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                            Reply#28 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:49 PM EDT
                                                                                                                            BamaBlows.Deleted
                                                                                                                            Diane Haglaund

                                                                                                                            I thought this would be a helpful blog with people who have to find new careers, go back to school, being older and wondering if they will get hired when they have new training. That we would be sharing our struggles, offering help and support to each other etc. Instead I find ranting, name calling, disrespect for others and our government. I am reinventing myself yet again - this will be my fourth time. I never got my MBA - yes I have an Associates Degree and a BA. Now I am trying to figure out if to get that MBA to wrap all my experience up into a bow and have a more marketable package, with additional tools learned from the MBA program, or go for a CNA/LPN degree and work at that while I get a degree in Alternative Health. And after all this will I still get hired as I am older? - 57 now 59 when my degree would be complete in the MBA program. These are my concerns not all this vitriol regarding ageism (you to will be 50+), politics, the "elites", Obama etc. What happened to generally trying to help each other and offer support, ideas, useful insights. We not only need to reinvent the way this country Works, but the way we view each other. We are ALL human beings, we ALL want to be loved and accepted, we ALL want to be useful and feel like we are contributing to our country, society and our families. So get real. This is a time to pull together, see our similarities, our Founding Fathers did say that we are all created equal as does the Good Book - there is no slave . . . we are all equal in the eyes of God - be that any religion or non-religion you want. We all bleed red blood, put our pants on one leg at a time, and use the toilet. No one is better than someone else. So why aren't we offing help instead of arguing who or what is better or worse?

                                                                                                                              Reply#30 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
                                                                                                                              BiteItBamaDeleted
                                                                                                                              oldcommmonsense

                                                                                                                              You are totally correct about age discrimination. It is alive and well! I had to truely battle my way thru the young college kids using my past knowledge and experience to out maneuver them. It was certainly a challenge.

                                                                                                                                #30.2 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:34 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                PINCH

                                                                                                                                Diane

                                                                                                                                I would say to look at both your options and choose the one that makes you the happiest. Employers can see a truly enthusiastic person past all the credentials in the world. I have often said to people that when you get up in the morning, you should say (sometimes with fatigue in your voice, and sometimes meaning it more than others), "Oh how wonderful. I get to go do --- today!" When you say, "Oh no, I have to go to work today." it may be time to look around. Life is too short for that.

                                                                                                                                You are absolutely right about age discrimination. I get my inspiration for getting past that from that great scene in the movie "Green Tomatoes" when Bette Midler tangles with two much younger girls over a parking space, which they take, saying "We're yoinger and faster." And she uses her big car to push them out of the way, wrecking their little car and saying, "I'm older and have more insurance." It makes me laugh to remember the scene, and I start feeling empowered again. Yes, I do what I can to look my best, and I have a lot more experience in so many things: reading people and then communicating appropriately, conforming my behaviors to a unique situation (because as you get older, fewer situations are really unique), thinking fast (you especially learn that raising children), problem-solving (you've had more of them), and the list goes on.

                                                                                                                                Be happy, be positive, and remember all that made you who you are. You may find yourself in a position where you feel like everybody's mother, but rejoice in that - even capitalize on it if you can. It means people look up to you, and that evolves easily to respect when people see how well you do your job.

                                                                                                                                And research is now showing that senior administrators, even younger ones, actually like hiring "experienced" (read "older") employees because they like the security of all that experience.

                                                                                                                                So take good care of yourself so you have a spring in your step and a twinkle in your eye, put a real smile on your face because you have chosen a path that excites you, and hit the brave new world head-on.

                                                                                                                                My best wishes and GOOD LUCK!

                                                                                                                                  #30.3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:21 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                  R.G. Waggoner

                                                                                                                                  Diane,

                                                                                                                                  Allow me to help you out. Forget about getting a job. J O B is an acronym for Journey Of the Broke. Jobs do not work, Job Security is synonymous with Social Security, it is a myth, there is no such thing as job security. Start your own business, then and only then can you pay yourself what your are worth and create your own security.

                                                                                                                                    #30.4 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:33 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                    cheryl-411434

                                                                                                                                    Diane,

                                                                                                                                    you will find it is basically the same people, time after time in these threads that try to interject political rantings, racism, insults and all sorts of time wasting non-sense that never seems to add anything to the discussion. There are however several people out there that I have been able to have wonderful debates, and exchanges of ideas with, not to mention wishes of support and encouragement. Don't let certain bloggers get to you. I look at it this way. If I were on a crowded bus, I am certain there would be some people I could have constructive conversations with, and there are others I would keep my distance from. For instance, the ones on the bus with their underwear on the outside of their clothes are the ones I would steer clear from. Online, it is more difficult to discern, as blogging is anonymous for the most part. But, as soon as you figure out who the underwear-on-the-outside-crowd is, you just ignore them. Hope that helps! =)

                                                                                                                                      #30.5 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:17 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                      cheryl-411434

                                                                                                                                      Diane,

                                                                                                                                      here is a perfect example see post #34 this is an "underwear-on-the-outside" kind of guy... Don't let him ruin what you are looking for in blogging.

                                                                                                                                        #30.6 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:25 AM EDT
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