Lawyer: Ex-US officials must face torture charges

True enough, but you have to understand that the Chinese have a tidy business in selling the body parts and internal organs of prisoner who no longer need them.

A collection of prisoners is need to maintain a live herd of people who can donate a lung, kidney, or eye to the commercial sucess of medical practioners in the US among other places.

1 vote

#1.4 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:03 AM EDT

tom, boston

au contraire.

the gonzales six may try and prove that torture works

by subjecting themselves to the kiind of tortures that they authorized and used

and telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth about what really went down during the last 3 decades.

it would be all worth it, don't ya think?

#1.5 - Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:34 PM EDT

rgh234

I am not into this one world order thing.

If there are any problems with these individuals conduct, this should be addressed in the US. So, ignore them.

Should they choose to enforce their decree, a swift kick in the but is in order.

6 votes

#2 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:24 AM EDT

Gee... I guess someone should have mentioned that to Bush Sr. before he invaded Panama and arrested Noriega for allowing drug traffickers to use Panama as a base of operations.

8 votes

#2.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:34 AM EDT

Pamela Drew

If there are any problems with these individuals conduct, this should be addressed in the US. So, ignore them.

If the Congress or US officials had an appetite for seeking justice we could let it be a domestic issues. As it is they have International Laws and Treaties that we are a party to and as high ranking officials, they were bound to observe. Bad break, sometimes accountability happens. Sadly it's not happening here first.

It alleges the men gave legal cover to the torture of terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, by claiming that the U.S. president could ignore the Geneva Conventions and by adopting an overly narrow legal definition of torture.

In addition to Gonzales and Feith, the complaint names former Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff David Addington; Justice Department officials John Yoo and Jay S. Bybee; and Pentagon lawyer William Haynes.

3 votes

#2.2 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:28 AM EDT

Panama was an action under force of arms. Any one who did not agree with Noriega's arrest was at liberty to to take up arms and stop the US action.

This is a fatuous attempt by a foreign power to interfere with the internal affairs of the American people. If the American people want to put these people on trial that is their right and a completely different argument.

In the event that Spain persists in this pursuit I hope that they realize that they will become subject to subpoena and trial in the US for their treatment of the Basque separatists. There are several other Spanish internal issues that need American involvement. They have signed treaties and accords with rogue states, they do not have a proper separation of church and state, their welfare system is insufficient, and they do not enforce the American interpretation of civil rights for all citizens. Spain also needs internal American guidance in law enforcement since they don't seem to be able to maintain the civil peace and tranquility. And that is just to begin with.

6 votes

#2.3 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:32 AM EDT

po'd in TN

Noriega was arrested and brought too america for trial on charges of trafficing drugs too America.Thats different than Spain charging Americans for torture on American soil.

Best thing Spain can do is mind their own business. Who are they too charge These people with anything.

Pres.Bush did what had too be done to keep our country safe and I am grateful for it. Everyone wants too charge him with crimes,but none were committed.The Geneva Conv. BS rules didnt apply because these were TERRORISTS not a Uniformed enemy army.

5 votes

#2.4 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:39 AM EDT

Ferrari5k

Relax, we don't belong to that Club. The EU is practicing for later, when they do take control through the Green treaty anf Seas treaty (LAWS). It begins with innocent looking Trade Agreements, then Treaties, which if ratified, Congress must obey. I worry more now because Congress no longer reads what it signs up for. They just do what their told to do. Someone must have pictures.

1 vote

#2.5 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:05 AM EDT

Excuse me, but when the US tortures the citizens of another country on US soil, it puts it on the same footing as Noriega.

#2.6 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:20 AM EDT

I do not mean to debate the US motive in dealing with Noriega. My point was that these are two different issues; one is dealing with a criminal state with force of arms, and the other is trying to assert by action of a court that Spain has jurisdiction over duly authorized official of the United States.

If those officials acted improperly that is a matter exclusively for the American people to resolve. I oppose a world wide warrant for American citizens that could be enforced in any country that arbitrarily chooses to honor the Spanish warrant.

Ferrai5K: do you suppose the EU is going to last long enough to try doing anything like that? They are beginning to unravel at the edges now.

1 vote

#2.7 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:22 AM EDT

We arrested and tried the leader of another country in the US court system because we didn't like what he was doing since it affected us.

Our torture of the citizens of other countries affects those countries. You think those are different?

#2.8 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:28 AM EDT

po'd in TN

hmm good point lets see how many people from Spain were tortured? Get me an answer for that and maybe we can talk about their Jurisdiction on this.

#2.9 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:10 PM EDT

Here is a news story that covers it

1 vote

#2.10 - Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:21 AM EDT

rgh234

There are two other points I wish to make about this.

First, one thing I respect about the Middle East. They bare at each others throats until some foriegn country intercedes, then they turn on the interloper. In short, we can fight among ourselves, but should not tolerate outside interference.

Second, why should we send our brave young men in harms way to serve as a "police force" to the world, handcuff them with rules of conduct the enemy does not abide by, then take criticism from countries who do not want to do this type of dirty work. From a practical standpoint, I can understand fightlng for control of oil in Iraq. But Afghanistan, the major crop out of there is opium. It is one thing if a people come to you with blody hands and ask to be helped, it is another thing entirely to sacrifice our own to support a drug trade.

2 votes

#2.11 - Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:26 AM EDT

Rixar13

I proclaim to all that this issue will not go away and I urge a call to justice. No One is above the Law if in fact we hold true to the "Rule of Law". ....?

In addition to Gonzales and Feith, the complaint names former Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff David Addington; Justice Department officials John Yoo and Jay S. Bybee; and Pentagon lawyer William Haynes.

3 votes

#3 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:42 AM EDT

I certainly agree! Now all that is left is to identify whose law are we going to uphold.

2 votes

#3.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:23 AM EDT

jared-905328Deleted

Snowflake-Seven

So Spain's court is calling them out. Good. But unless the rest of international community does the same, it is unlikely that anything will come of it. It seems like the best hope is to place a warrant out for their arrest. Then in twenty years when they have forgotten about it and make a tourist visit to Spain, they can be arrested and tried.

In the end, by failing to impeach the American people neglected their best opportunity, and responsibility, to hold them accountable and set the stage for a criminal trial.

1 vote

#5 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:42 AM EDT

Ferrari5k

We all hate torture but if I had a dollar for every foriegn indictment or arrest warrant for a US Citizen or govt official I'd literally have a million. This is why I want to keep America as seperate from the Two Class Socialist. All closet euro-pigs need to move. Go live in a land where the middle class rents and doesn't own. They own Bikes, not cars and have a 32% unemployment rate for people under 30. Do you think they might own a boat or a weekend condo or even a Timeshare? Not! Their middle class is not close to equal to ours. I lived there for over three years and was shocked when a uniformed man came to the door and gave me a ticket for not having a license for my TV. They suck you dry and it affects the lower incomes more than the upper. What a joke! To pay a fee every time you go to work in town? WTF? Then they have the nerve to track your every move with camera's while matching your name to your picture to make sure you didn't sneak into town?. There's plenty more (you can't own an Irish Bar in London or anywhere else) but I'll save them. You can keep their idea of Freedom. I have the natural right to live my life, make a living, travel from A to B, without being forced to pay a third party extra.

1 vote

#6 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:47 AM EDT

Steve W in MD

Ferrari, I could not have said that better.

#6.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:50 PM EDT

So I suppose the fact that it was the United States who pushed for the laws against torture, is the world's foremost accuser of other nations, and literally wrote the book on this, doesn't bother you in the least? Please, list for us all of the ignored foreign indictments and arrest warrants you refer to. I know some District Attorneys who would love to pursue your leads.

San Francisco is upping the fees on the Golden Gate Bridge - a fee every time people in the North Bay go to work. Southern California Republicans are pushing for fee-based freeways. You can't buy a Starbuck's unless they like you - and then you are a franchise, not a proprietor. Cameras are being added to street corners in our urban centers and our satellites monitor more than just foreign entities - why, the CIA is now so proud of its spy blimp (for domestic use) they bragged about it to the press. Every byte of internet traffic is monitored and our phone calls are routinely intercepted. Police are allowed to do "sneak and peek" searches of our property without warrants. Our "home ownership" has been turned into an international debacle and our unemployment figures are grossly underreported, in part because people who don't use government assistance aren't counted in the total. Want to talk about being "blown away" by the "uniformed man" at your door? Los Angeles demanded I appear at a hearing there because I haven't paid them 2009 city "self-employment" taxes, even though I haven't had income in Los Angeles since 2007 and have lived 400 miles away from there for nearly a year now.

Aside from the fact that the UK is so tiny, cars are largely irrelevant (and that our urban centers such as Manhattan and San Francisco are so congested cars are a liability, not an asset) - get off your Limbaugh-fed high horse and consider the fact that this nation, under the leadership of Republican thugs, has been no different from what you describe and belittle for years. As far as bicycling goes - sell the Hummer, ride a bike!

1 vote

#6.2 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:42 PM EDT

tom, boston

we the two class socialsits are majority now.

you move.

we don't care where.

#6.3 - Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:40 PM EDT

pjwrites

The complaint stops just shy of seeking true justice, does it not? Why no request for Bush and Cheney themselves? The underlings will go down with the ship, but the Captain and First Mate get the first lifeboat? Weren't those underlings just following orders?

1 vote

#7 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:54 AM EDT

Well, if it works like criminal cases in the U.S., they are looking forward to the indicted ones ratting out their superiors. Lawyers are like that. Yeah, they are. I think the fun is just beginning...

1 vote

#7.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:56 PM EDT

TheyreAllCrooks

This is likely not the last country to go in this direction. Bush authorized the CIA to operate "detention centers" in several European countries specifically so we could torture these bastards - because they knew they couldn't do it inside the US.

Cheney was apparently running this operation - he admitted as much in recent interviews. Frankly, I think our intelligence people did what they had to do to get them critters to sing. Those in the field should not be held responsible.

But one thing continues to befuddle me. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Rice, Rove et al knew that waterboarding had been outlawed by the US after WWII. They knew that the US executed hundreds of Japanese officers for waterboarding US soldiers. They knew the US formally declared waterboarding to be torture. They knew we signed on to the Geneva Convention against such torture. And even though this war didn't necessarily fall under Geneva provisions - why would they even consider waterboarding?

There's got to be tons of other ways to make someone wish they were dead. I think they should be brought up on the charges - the US does not torture and we need to get this stain removed! If the US considered waterboarding was a crime punishable by death in 1945 - what's changed to make it ok for the US to authorize it?

2 votes

#8 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:59 AM EDT

xcomunic8ed

Because it's only torture and illegal when someone else does it.

4 votes

#8.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:12 AM EDT

Eric AlbertDeleted

ditchdigger

let's really go after these blood thirsty,cruel facists.the audacity of torturing these poor mis understood heros.the war crimes commission in europe.what a bunch of stand up people.europe over the years has been so good at defending themselves,from other faceists.when these same poor souls are standing over one of your countrymen,with a machete.won't it be great to know you defended them.how many people died from waterboarding?

#10 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:10 AM EDT

tonys247

GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!! those lying bastards all need to be brought to justice ....some accountability for the most ill-conceived fiasco in modern us history... with dumb a** shock and awe rumsfeld (trying to run a military machine like a F******* office steno pool!!!!!) 4,000 lives lost... for what???... billiuons of dollars spent!!!!... for what???... afghanistan would've been resolved or at least maybe we could see the light at bthe end of the tunnel!!!!! warfare in stan would've been easier... all you do is herd them into remote mountains or tribal areas and use high altitude bombing like we did at tora bora.... no collateral damage as a matter of fact you kill two birds with one stone... you destroy the enemy and you flatten mountain ranges that cxan be cleared of rubble to make way for streets and highways to create a infra structure which leads to commerce which leads to a people that become self sufficient and can see a light at the end of their tunnel!!!!!... but who am i kidding????... that would have been too easy!!!!!... instead we ESCORT OBL OUT IN THE NIGHT AND COME UP WITH THE LAME EXCUSE THAT HE ELUDED OUR FORCES!!!!!!.... that's what we're faced with.... lies, false agendas, cabals in cabals, no wonder the world hates us... not the government!!!!... us because 250 million plus people let a handful of fools trash one of the last and only shining beacons of the possibility of a peolple to achieve and realize thier potential!!!!! i'm getting off my soap box now...thank you

#11 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:25 AM EDT

Truth Hurts-840829

LOL

as if.

a big non-event

#12 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:44 AM EDT

MHammer

We have our own laws and jurisdiction. We are not accountable to other nations legal systems, for if we go down that slippery slope of legalities, then any American Citizen could be pulled from their home to face charges overseas or in another country. This is one more action by Left wing Peacniks who do not understand that things happen in war and that sometimes they are not right. In this instance all we have a generated histeria by Left wing writers looking to bring down an administration (Bush) in which they had total disagreements. It is time to tell these people Pi$$ off and go about our business. After all theses are US Citizens, not Spanish Citizens.

2 votes

#13 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:02 AM EDT

Good observation. Watch the current status of trials in the EU. there was a recent newsvine article about trials of citizens of EU member countries where the defendant could be charged, given a fair trial in absentia, and convicted with out their knowledge and then the individual will be arrested by the police of his own country and shipped to the other country to serve his sentence.

The EU is showing what the European practice of justice is in reality and America neds to be very careful to disengage from European entanglements.

1 vote

#13.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:08 AM EDT

Are you a complete idiot or do you just play one on tv? The United States set the rules. If the leaders of your political party, and at that time, the nation, commit or orchestrate acts of torture, they are no better than terrorists.

The laws are in place and the United States is a signatory to them. This cannot be revoked by Presidential decree. As a result, the Bush administration, by their own admission guilty of war crimes, will be brought to trial whether in this country or any other signatory to the laws. In fact, it is incumbent on the United States to try the Bush administration. However, if the nation of origin does not comply, it is then the responsibility of the other signatories to begin prosecution.

Just because you have a PC and can type doesn't mean you know what you are talking about, Dick. Go back to your undisclosed location and wait for your subpoena like a good boy.

#13.2 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:40 PM EDT

Steve W in MD

Are you a complete idiot or do you just play one on tv? The United States set the rules. If the leaders of your political party, and at that time, the nation, commit or orchestrate acts of torture, they are no better than terrorists.

Any President or any member of our Congress, as disgusting as they can be, even if they did waterboard a terrorist are far better than any of those animals who do to people what those extremists do.

How about watching some of those beheadings again or those of women and children being dismembered by those bastards, just to remind you how civil we are.

Fight fair? Yeah right, whatever. No such thing.

1 vote

#13.3 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:05 PM EDT

Darryl the Contractor

How ironic, by listening to their superiors and dismissing any active consciences, providing the executive branch these memos/findings/directives, to do their collective perversion of the brightest shining example of a legal system by, for and of the people, the free world has ever known.

These 2nd tier executives have perverted the very laws that our free society is based upon, and by doing so, now they are loosing their freedoms to travel abroad at the very least.

Without a doubt, the saddest part in this perverted perspective of "providing freedom" is that the directors, the Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, Wolfitwitz, Libby, Rove et all, will not see the justice they so richly deserve.

Throw another couple of enlisted personnell under your bus boys!

#14 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:26 AM EDT

I wouldn't be so discouraged, Darryl. The prosecution of underlings usually uncovers evidence implicating their superiors in the chain of command. I suspect a vigorous prosecution will lead to indictments of the entire cabal who brought this disgrace and dishonor upon us.

#14.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:39 PM EDT

Professor Dr. S. CollymoreDeleted

Rixar13

Professor, Thank you for pointing out what I witness almost daily

A favourite mantra of the neo-cons and far right on both sides of the Atlantic in relation to their farcical war on terror is, if you haven’t anything to hide then you shouldn’t be afraid to be tried for what it’s alleged you’d done.

If they have done nothing wrong than they should grow a pair and let the rule of Law grind to the truth.

1 vote

#16 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:52 AM EDT

X_BAND QUIT PROQUO

----------LETS ASK BUSH------WELL WUT DO YA SAY-----------

DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD ALL VOTE ON IT---????Hhmmmmm

I BET FASCIST BUSH DOES NOT WANT .....US.....TO VOTE ON IT?!

Well ITS obvious BUSH is /WAS a BAD COP--Ah--911 a pentagon COUPE--

cruise hits BUT BUSH BAD MAN covers it up...Hhmmm GEE BUSH probably took out the good guys in the PENTAGON with that cruise missle and covered it up---Gee no wonder why that was in FACT a remotecontrolled cargo plane with BLUE markings RATHER THAN a PASSENGER JET----------GEE those BUSHs probably nocked JFK,RFk,JOHN JR and KING---and OUR ECONOMIES-----AND created a drug war TOO--------WHEN IT BY HIGH COMMAND SHOULD BE LEGALIZED---why-----they will buy and sell and distribute anyways--thoses who dont wont-------THEY MUST---- RELAX---TAX---and DECRIMINALIZE------on private property-----all those nonviolent criminals in JAIL for life because of drugs......Cmon fascist bUSH fascist military,police---are not DEA agents---AND THEY ARE NOT PAID TO BE Drug enforcers....BESIDES we have other wars to TAME right or is it repubs military contractors that want to CREATE WARs---probably.--

WE KNOW WHATS UP--------RELAX,,,,,TAX,,,,,DECRIMINALIZE ON PRIVATE property as distribution legal and controlled on public property--------------------------------------------USA----#1 buyers,,,,,,,sellers,,,,,,distributors,,,,,USERS,,,,,,,,,,,PAY OUR FAIR TAX ====

THE TAX BASE is IMPORTANT as the narcotics regulation in the 60s was by a FOREIGN enemy manipulating the REPUBLICANS after taking manipulation control from JFK nock off..................commies and republican capitalists dirty little SECRET......NSA-proof_A1B.

#17 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:28 PM EDT

Please - get off the drugs. They are making a mess of your typing.

2 votes

#17.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:47 PM EDT

sickandtired-554972

"After all theses are US Citizens, not Spanish Citizens."

Actually we are talking about citizens from the middle east (Gitmo detainees).Please stay on the seed...

"We are not accountable to other nations legal systems"

But we are accountable for the treaties we (the US) have signed, placed into legality, or endorsed. These usually go against people that are not American Citizens.

"then any American Citizen could be pulled from their home to face charges overseas or in another country"

Already happening. Read your passport. As the holder of a US passport you are held accountable for any illegal action or law broken under the visiting countries constitution.

I other words: If you go to China and break the law, you will pay for that law (if caught). Please watch Brokedown Palace, Midnight Express, Read about the sugar cane whipping in the phillipines.

All I really want to know is where are you coming from? Do you have any clue about legality? It is OK to put to death Japanese officers that tortured American GI's in WWII, but god forbid that we hold that same accountability to a American that did the same thing? How do you like the idea of Americans being tortured by a middle eastern country? That is not OK, but it is OK for us (theUS) to torture? Kind of one-sided don't ya think? Is that OK with you? Are you a victim of the US school system or are you just blind?!

2 votes

#18 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:38 PM EDT

Bravo!

#18.1 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:48 PM EDT

ole gunny

Let's see them come over get these people. Wonder if they could drop down and pick up Castro on the same trip. To hell with the Spanish courts in fact to hell with Spain.

#19 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:05 PM EDT

ole gunny

Sick and Tired, I am tired of your kind. If you think the Nips form of torture is the same as playing loud music you need assistance. I know that you will never agree but I think there is some differnce between putting prisioners in boiling oil, cutting off penuses and fingers one inch at time or cutting live Marines open and pulling out their instestines. God almighty how I hate a "thing" like you.

2 votes

#20 - Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:11 PM EDT