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What’s the tab for bailout? Take your pick

Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:37 AM EDT
obama, eye-on-the-economy, economy, only-on-msnbc-com, spending, fed, tarp, lending, feds, trillion
msnbc.com News — By John W. Schoen, Senior Producer
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— It started out as a simple question.

How much money has the federal government thrown at the financial crisis since the recession first began over a year ago?

Exact figures remain elusive, like most of the way the government handles and accounts for money, and it's complicated by a simmering alphabet soup of programs aimed at revving up the economy. The bottom line also depends on whom you ask.

Turns out it would be easier to count the squirrels in Central Park than arrive at a precise answer.

So far, cash commitments made by various bailout efforts — including the Treasury's $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program bailout and various lending programs by the Federal Reserve — are just shy of $3 trillion, Neil Barofsky, special inspector general for TARP, told the Senate Finance Committee March 31.

But the net cost to taxpayers will be much lower — more like $356 billion in direct spending — according to an analysis published last month by the Congressional Budget Office.

An analysis by msnbc.com concludes that Congress, the Fed and government agencies have announced plans to spend $7.2 trillion to fight the economic downturn, with the vast majority of that coming in the form of loans and loan guarantees. (See graphic above.)

But the Fed and other agencies typically deflect any such attempts to total up the costs of the spending and lending.

At a March 24 House Financial Services Committee hearing, Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn.,  demanded that Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke cite the constitutional basis for the central bank’s aggressive moves to stem the financial panic, saying, “This has been over $10 trillion that we're talking about.”

“I don't know where $10 trillion comes from,” Bernanke replied curtly.

The government’s response to the 16-month-old recession and financial panic has been as complex as it is vast. Dozens of separate programs and spending packages have been unleashed by the Fed, the Treasury, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and other agencies. These programs fall into two broad categories: call them lending and spending.

Most of the lending, by far the biggest pile of cash, has come from the Fed. Created in 1913 after a series of devastating financial panics, the central bank was designed as the lender of last resort. Since the crisis began, the Fed has lent with a vengeance. But for each of the Federal Reserve notes (aka dollars) it has handed out, the Fed has taken back some form of collateral, usually a relatively high-quality bond—on which it collects interest.

That is, after all, what the Fed has done for the past 95 years. For most of that period, the Fed stuck to swapping cash for the safest debt securities — U.S. Treasury notes, bills and bonds. When the financial panic hit in September, lending all but dried up as panicked investors and bankers hoarded cash. The Fed responded by widening the type of securities it was willing to accept as collateral and began spraying money at the economy like a fire brigade trying to contain a five-alarm inferno.

Seizing on an obscure clause, Section 13.3 in the law that created the Fed, the central bank invoked virtually unlimited powers to expand its lending to “any individual, partnership, or corporation” when confronted with “unusual and exigent circumstances.”

The Fed’s use of that lending power has been prolific. When the crisis began in September, the Fed’s balance sheet — the accounting of how much it holds in investments against its cash loans outstanding — stood at about $940 billion. By year-end, that number had swelled to $2.3 trillion, fueled by an alphabet soup of “lending facilities” created at a pace and scope never imagined.

The Term Auction Facility, for example, expanded the list of lenders and the type of collateral accepted for cash. In normal times, the Fed lends only to an elite list of the biggest banks and “primary dealers,” which it uses as conduits to the wider financial system. Before long, the list would include a troubled insurance company and a failing investment bank that had made too-risky bets.

In normal times, the Fed’s main focus is the banking system. Before the credit panic hit, some 40 percent of lending happened outside the Fed’s purview in the “shadow” banking system.

That additional funding comes from investment funds, corporations, pensions, university endowments, wealthy individuals and foreign governments — anyone with a pile of spare cash looking to earn interest. In normal times these investors make their funds available by purchasing “asset-backed” bonds consisting of car loans, credit card debt, mortgages and student loans. But last September that “shadow” lending market all but dried up.

To get the market for these loans flowing again, the Fed stepped with the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility (TALF) as a buyer of last resort for these bonds. Starting with a commitment of $200 billion, the Fed would eventually pledge to buy as much as $1 trillion of asset-backed securities used to fund consumer lending.

The Fed also unleashed a series of other programs, some of which provided the desired calming effect with relatively little actual lending. Other programs have virtually been ended after having served their purpose.

That rise and fall of multiple lending facilities is one reason it’s tough to assign a grand total to the government’s cash commitments to the crisis. From its $2.3 trillion peak at the end of last year, the Fed’s balance sheet fell to $1.9 trillion in February. Since then it’s crept back up to $2.1 trillion. That part of the calculation remains a moving target.

For all its largesse, the Fed expects to get most of its money back when the economy and financial system recover.

Bernanke told Congress last month that some 95 percent of its loans are back by the safest, top-quality debt paper. The other 5 percent includes some risky assets put up by the now-defunct Bear Stearns and taxpayer-rescued American International Group Inc. (AIG). But even those loans will eventually pay back some of the Fed’s investment.

The Fed may even come out ahead when the crisis is over and it reverses all these loans, swapping the bonds it's holding back into cash. Though the central bank has pushed the short-term interest rates banks charge each other to near zero, the Fed doesn’t lend money for free. The interest it collects on the trillions of dollars it lends pays the Fed’s operating expenses. Any surplus goes to the Treasury to help pay for general government spending. So a true accounting of the financial bailout should add back the return on the Fed’s investment. This, too, changes from one week to the next.

What about the rest of our bailout accounting for the relatively smaller pile of money devoted to actual spending? Those figures are easier to nail down. What's less clear is how much of that money eventually will return to the Treasury.

The first major outlay came last year, when it became apparent that the economic slowdown called for some sort of government response. An initial $168 billion stimulus package approved by Congress was handed out largely in the form of tax rebates to individuals.

But a despite brief pickup in spending last summer, the economy continued to slide. When the credit panic hit in September, Congress and the White House reacted with urgency.

Warned by then-Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson that the global financial system was perhaps days from a catastrophic collapse, Congress authorized the Treasury to spend up to $700 billion to buy up mortgage-backed investments that bankers said were clogging up the system. And the
legislation directed the Treasury to spend tens of billions to help homeowners facing foreclosure who were sold dicey mortgages.

Neither of those plans materialized. After weeks of late nights and long weekends trying to devise a program to buy up “toxic” bank assets, Paulson announced a massive infusion of cash directly to banks in exchange for stock paying the government a dividend. That Trouble Asset Relief Program, or TARP, would eventually disburse some $240 billion to banks, many of which played a critical role in creating the toxic assets they were now unable to sell.

The TARP soon became a financial firewall against the spread of panic to other troubled corners of the credit system. Insurance giant AIG, with operations in 130 countries and over 100 million policy holders, announced it was on the brink of insolvency. Because one arm of the company wasn’t regulated, no one bothered to ensure there was enough money on AIG’s books to pay off all its bets.

With the aftershocks of the collapse of the failed investment firm Lehman Bros. still reverberating, Treasury and Fed officials said they had no choice but to put up billions in loans and TARP funds to keep AIG afloat. In the end, AIG received four separate government bailouts totaling more than $170 billion.

Once it became clear that TARP's original mandate to buy toxic assets had been abandoned, the ailing auto industry came calling for help. After years of a relentless rise in costs and sliding sales, the CEOs of Chrysler and General Motors flew to Washington on corporate jets asking for TARP money to tide them over. Before the Obama administration finally said “Enough” last month, some $17.4 billion in TARP funds had been shipped to Detroit.

When Congress reauthorized the second round of TARP spending, it made sure $75 billion was tagged to help homeowners in foreclosure. But instead of buying up mortgages directly and refinancing them, the program provides cash incentives to lenders who voluntarily step forward to offer struggling households more affordable terms.

The TARP program has had mixed success in getting credit flowing again. So far, there are few signs it has succeeded in getting the economy back on its feet.

So Congress and the White House decided in February to serve up another $787 billion in government spending. The hope is that much of the money will help fill the consumer spending gap left by millions of lost jobs and the twin collapses of the housing and stock markets.

Like all government accounting, tracking that spending is a lot harder than than balancing the family checkbook. For starters, that $787 billion represents spending authorized over 10 years, although most is likely to be appropriated in the first two.

Much of that money isn’t really spending; some $400 billion represents taxes that won’t be collected. Instead of just handing out tax rebate checks, this time the government is targeting tax breaks to those at the bottom of the income ladder, first-time home buyers or people who buy fuel-efficient, American-made cars.

As for the spending, the original intent was to find programs like building roads and bridges that would provide the biggest economic bang for each tax buck. It will be years before the full economic impact, and the size of the program, can be known. That’s one more reason the total tally is tough to nail down.

The biggest impact of the bailout — the size of the federal debt — may be easier account for.

When the recession officially began in December 2007, the total public debt outstanding stood at $9.149 trillion. As of April 1, 2009, the figure had risen to $11.110 trillion. The difference  comes to $1.961 trillion.

Which is about as good an accounting of the true cost as any.

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  • John W. Schoen's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Focus on Finance, Free Market, Free Thinkers, Libertarians, march on for Freedom, Power to The People!, rightwingers, The Greater Depression
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  • Public Discussion (372)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3 4
Stone5150

Does anyone plan to ever explain how all this crap works without just throwing a bunch of huge numbers trying to sensationalize the whole thing to get reader number up?

I understand that the US budgets routinely deal in billions and trillions of dollars, but all I see lately is a bunch of huge numbers without any sort of reference to what is 'normal' for these numbers. I don't mean the norm for the last 8 years, more something along the lines of the norm for the last 30 years or something.

  • 5 votes
#1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:51 AM EDT
ms-397461

Sounds like the idea is that we assume that the "loans" will be paid back in full. Any bookies willing to put some odds on that?

By the way...how do they loan money that they really don't have? Sounds like a scandal. Guess we will keep chasing our tail...

  • 13 votes
#1.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
Greg-281912

I'll admit that with only an MBA in economics, I have limited education, and I have no idea what most of this article means in the first place. It sounds to me like a skit from Saturday Night Live.

I'm pretty sure that on many levels I am as smart as many people in D.C., so I doubt most of Congress has any idea what they are up to.

That said, let's not forget the old saying that "if you gave a thousand monkeys a thousand typewriters, they will eventually type the works of Shakespeare."

So, let's find great comfort that at some point in the future, everything will fall into place, and you know very well that Obama and our 2009 Congress will take credit.

But I'm not so sure many of us will be around in 2050 or so.

  • 26 votes
#1.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
ms-397461

Greg...awesome.

America's attitude about money and entitlement needs to change to fix this problem for good!

  • 14 votes
#1.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
Boo-331080

WE the tax payers will be charged for most all of it, who are they kidding, it has already started a while ago, with the states raising property taxes to pay for the State and local Governments workers, and teachers health insurance... And now they are tacking on what they call Fee's, to your electric bill of 4.95 a month to pay for the street lights ( which is already paid for by property taxes ) among other so called Fee's that we will be charged.

The Government is nothing but a Legalized Mafia...

“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence—it is force.” – George Washington

“The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants…God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!” – Thomas Jefferson

“The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.” – Thomas Jefferson

“Give government the weapons to fight your enemy and it will use them against you.” – Harry Browne

“But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of Liberty, and that you must pay that price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government.” – Andrew Jackson

www.strike-the-root.com/4/wasdin/wasdin27.html Our founding fathers quotes.

  • 11 votes
#1.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:09 AM EDT
SMVCPA

I strongly suggest to all those blogging here that wrote they do not understand our true economic system (and neither does this author), please watch zeitgeist the Addendum, a free 2 hour movie online that is one of the most watched videos on the web of all time.  It will explain in detail how the federal reserve central banking system, the private corporation organized in Delaware, was created in 1913 (our history is full of founding fathers warning we the people about the extreme dangers of central banks) to take control of our money supply and then create so much debt (while removing the money from the gold standard) unbacked by an real resource, the result of which is corporations, countries, states, and people are ultimately insolvent because there aren't enough resources in the world that could be sold for the amount of money needed to settle the debt.  What you have then is economic slaves.  1,000 years ago, in our exact situation, we would have been called serfs, 95% of us.  Ask yourselves this, my fellow Americans, what do you really own?  Have that deed for the home in your pocket, or does the bank?  Know anybody not 70 years old that holds the deed to a house or other real estate?  Did you know over 20% of the elderly in the US lives in nursing homes, broke and being slowly terminated with exelarated doses of various coctails of pills (and spend their remaining days in a 8x10 room (often with a roommate who is equally busted).  Less than 10% of all Americans hold a deed to the real estate they actually rent from the bank.  Do a search online entitled fractional reserve banking, or watch zeitgeist to learn how money is created from nothing, and lent out in greater quantities than the whole.  Wake up citizens of America and resist the media mind control that everything is going to be ok.  Search online for others who know the truth, there are many, and I challenge you doubters to offer any tangible proof that rebutts anything I have written, or that is in zeitgeist.  The truth is out there for those who care about a future for our children that does not involve economic slavery for all.  I will be watching the blogs here and elsewhere, and will gladly debate with anyone who wishes to disprove what I write here.  I am that confident that you can't, because I am armed with evidence of the truth, not the lies from the news and Wall Street, and consider it my mission to stop the Insiders.

  • 12 votes
#1.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:10 AM EDT
ms-397461

SMVCPA, are the videos biased, or more of a documentary? Do the videos come from reputable sources?

    #1.6 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:14 AM EDT
    John-385319Deleted
    skipster56

    Here is the REAL picture of what is going on. MSNBC, as everyone knows, is in Obama's pocket, so they ran a poll, thinking they would get an "A" response of how he is handling the economy. Here is the link to the poll. Over 2 million voters already.
    Remember, this is an MSNBC Democratic Poll showing an overwhelming "F"

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29493093/

    • 6 votes
    #1.8 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
    Something new please

    SMVCPA

    Nixon took us off the gold standard, not the Fed. In answer to your question of "what do you own?", that's a more philosophical question that anything. One the one hand, if a bank holds a mortgage on your home, it can be said that they own it. On the other hand, the bank can't sell or repossess your home as long as you're making your payments. Leaving philosophy aside, you have a net worth and that's the measure of your wealth. You use the phrase "economic slavery." That's a cute buzz-word, but what does it mean? If by human slavery you mean that we have to work for a living and can't stop working, I don't see that as the Fed's fault. You have to work. If you do your job, save your money, and manage to live (in relatively good health) into your retirement years you should be all right. Not everyone who lives in a nursing home is broke. Some people have money but their families don't want to take care of them (or can't). What do you propose as an alternative to nursing care? Have you ever been to a nursing home? The Alzheimer's wing of one? If you're old and broke, you don't go to a nursing home, you go to public housing for the old and broke. We have that too in America. Nursing home folks require nursing care. That's why they're there.

    As for media mind control, obviously you don't see yourself as being among those that are controlled. You can give yourself a big pat on the back for being so enlightened. Congrats!

    • 3 votes
    #1.9 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:26 AM EDT
    Something new please

    skipster56

    You prove once again that common sense is not at all common.

    • 4 votes
    #1.10 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
    martvol

    Thanks for the link. Another F was added. We have bankruptcy courts in this contry for a reason. Lets use them instead of the bailout (some claim they are loans).

    • 9 votes
    #1.11 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
    ms-397461

    GO TO POST 1.8.

    Follow link and vote...I did! Thanks skipster! I gave a 'D'. He can only get an 'F' after his term. In my mind (optimistic), he can reverse course if he has a revelation (not likely).

    • 6 votes
    #1.12 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:34 AM EDT
    HojoKate

    skipster56....so right.

    I just did the poll...

    26% give obama an.... A

    45% give obama an.... F

    • 4 votes
    #1.13 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:37 AM EDT
    Captain Marvelous

    How about the BILLIONS that Wells Fargo was forced to take, it didn't want or need the money but the govt said take it or else.

    I don't trust Obama or any of his appointees, particularly those that are pushing for the power to take over any company that they see fit.

    Vote these bums out! Dems and Repubs both.

    • 8 votes
    #1.14 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:57 AM EDT
    madmaxine-888753

    the problem isn't the dums throwing money at everything they see, it is the idiots who vote them in power. The repubs aren't much better, but them the conservatives won't vote for em and they don't stay n power. The federal debt, that is the amount that as accrued in the last 200 and some years will have doubled in the first four years of bamamania. Imagine that, bama and the dems will have created as much debt as all the other administrations combined!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • 4 votes
    #1.15 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
    Carlos Toadvine

    These loans ight be repaid but there is also a real possibility they won't, in that case the taxpayers as usual will be on the hook. We should be watching the power in Washington very closely. They are hoping we wont.

    • 4 votes
    #1.16 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
    Own Up!!

    U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
    The Outstanding Public Debt as of 13 Apr 2009 at 02:59:53 PM GMT is:

    The estimated population of the United States is 305,994,018
    so each citizen's share of this debt is $36,549.10.
    The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
    $3.87 billion per day since September 28, 2007!
    Concerned? Then tell Congress and the White House!

    I think this says it all.

    • 4 votes
    #1.17 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
    Does all this scare you? Buy a Rottweiler

    In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one party of citizens to give to the other, which will lead us to understand that, government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."

    • 2 votes
    #1.18 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
    Something new please

    Carlos Toadvine

    The banks that received TARP funds have already made multiple interest payments totalling billions. Of course, that's only a small fraction of the loaned money, but every bit helps. The real question is the purchased assets. I'm hearing more news of an increasing belief that the "toxic assets" were correctly priced and that it wasn't a case of the market being too jittery. Only time will tell if that's true though.

    • 2 votes
    #1.19 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:12 AM EDT
    Something new please

    Own Up!!

    Great point! We should grant all the illegal aliens in this country citizenship. Then, each person's share of the national debt will go down. What, that doesn't make sense? Neither does your post.

    • 2 votes
    #1.20 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
    Stone5150

    Labor jobs still pay a (barely) livable wage, and always have. The low end labor jobs that illegal immigrants take are the fruit and veggie pickers that pay almost nothing. The reason they even make the effort to do them is because they get free room and board during the season and the money they make here pays their way for the off season in Mexico.

    I have seen this first hand, I know dozens of illegals, several owners & managers of companies that utilize/exploit them. The companies don't want to exploit them anymore than the illegals want a crap job. But it makes for cheap affordable food and 'it is the way we've always done it', plus the government isn't in a big hurry to end this arrangement despite what you see on TV. The whole 'Dey took err jobs!' legislation, showy fence building and rabblerousing is just a big dog and pony show to keep the rednecks happy and casting votes for the anti-immigration candidates.

    They could end the whole illegal immigration thing in a few months if they really wanted to, but it would make food and other essentials too expensive for the average person, and out of reach for the other laborers mentioned above.

    • 3 votes
    #1.21 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
    ms-397461

    Stone, great post. Problem is, that REAL REFORM, will cost us money. Not money due the government, money to providers. Green energy might end up being the biggest! Too many people think that all of these "fixes" will be free, or cheap. That's why the free market is so important. It let's us decide what is important to us, and, as consumers, we make up our own mind where our money goes.

    I would pay more for veggies, to give the jobs back to citizens. I do not want to pay more money for electricity just because it could be solar.

    • 5 votes
    #1.22 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:37 AM EDT
    frenchconnection

    Greg says: The Obama admin and the congress will take credit when everything falls into place (that is a pretty big assumption but we all need to hope for that to happen). Seems like it would be well deserved since they certainly are taking ALL of the criticism for the actions they are taking. Lead, follow or get out of the way. So far the only leadership we have seen is from the president.

    Since the President and the democratic majority in congress are the only ones willing to take any heat for the stimulous and budgets, I think that it is appropriate for them to get all of the accolades when (or if) it works. Basically, failure is the bet that the Republican leaders are putting all their future elections on and so if the economy recovers, they are going to look petty, silly, and heartless. They are big on criticism but really short on any answers other than more tax breaks for the upper 2% and cut all services other than in their home state.

    Personally, I am betting on recovery and I think that the vast majority of Americans are rooting for that rather than hoping for failure so they can point fingers and criticize from their cardboard box homes under the local overpass.

    • 3 votes
    #1.23 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:40 AM EDT
    bobm-346250

    I guess when MSN saw that it might look bad they decided to tag on a little explanation about how Clinton got such bad marks after the Lewinski ordeal and then everything turned around. Just who I would like to be compared to-the biggest crook and deviant to hold the office of President. Shows both of these guys are nothing but smooth talkers that can just about talk anyone into anything. Of course Obama has a few other things going his way to.

    • 3 votes
    #1.24 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:42 AM EDT
    Something new please

    bobm-346250

    When you mention the biggest crook ever to hold the office of the President, were you talking abut Nixon or Bush II?

    • 4 votes
    #1.25 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:57 AM EDT
    ForTheBreakUp

    What a load of bull.

    Hey taxpayer, the government is going to give away $7 trillion of your future earnings but don't worry. You will only have to pay back 5% of that because in the liberal fantasy world all these loans will be repaid. Obama's ACME Reality Distortion Goggles enables him to fool both himself and you into believing that these companies and homeowners that failed before are now going to be able to perform on their loans. These goggles remove all doubt that may creep in because of that pesky continuing unemployment problem. They erases all ability to see the eventual disaterous outcome of deflating the US dollar by just printing money. You feel safe as you bask in the rose colored hues of the goggles' lens while the economy is converted to just another socialist wastepile like so many European utopias. Enjoy as your future is recklessly mortgaged away. Just remember to keep chanting......Hope and Change....BAAAA.....BAAAA.....BAAAAAAAA

    CHANGE...................ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • 5 votes
    #1.26 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:00 PM EDT
    doubting thomas 1

    Wow ! I'm embarrassed ! I thought the amount of money committed so far was about only $ 5.0-5.5 Trillion ! These boys at the Fed have been busy. Ofcourse that includes their money commitments during the last administration.

    From the Article:

    An analysis by msnbc.com concludes that Congress, the Fed and government agencies have announced plans to spend $7.2 trillion to fight the economic downturn, with the vast majority of that coming in the form of loans and loan guarantees.

    I guess they want us to sit back and trust them ! Lets see ! What I see on the foreclosure circuit is that the properties are selling for about 30 cents on the dollar. How in the H--L do they expect to make a profit on those type of losses ??? Oh, maybe they are just B.S.ing all of us to feel good about what's going on !!!

    I just received an email this morning about all the "TEA-PROTESTS" across the nation and the basic comment is that we will not see this mentioned on the networks. I did not see the network news yesterday, so I don't know whether it's been reported ! Comments ??

    • 1 vote
    #1.27 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:02 PM EDT
    paul-547058

    In 1913, Congress voted to hand over its (San Francisco Fed)

    Should Americans assume that these individuals serve on the Board of the New York Fed in the public interest or in their private, corporate interests? What do you think?

    For example (one of many): JPMorgan Chase was able to buy up both was from 1995 to 2002, a member of the Mergers & Acquisitions Department of Morgan Stanley & Co., in New York, serving as Vice President and Executive Director.
    This is but one of many examples of the cross-pollination between the world of private, international banking and the nominally "Federal" central banking system.

    Alan Greenspan, the former Chairman of the Federal Reserve, admitted recently that the Fed operates without Congressional oversight.

    "Well, first of all, the Federal Reserve is an independent agency, and that means, basically, that there is no other agency of government which can overrule actions that we take. So long as that is in place and there is no evidence that the administration or the Congress or anybody else is requesting that we do things other than what we think is the appropriate thing, then what the relationships are don't, frankly, matter."

    The Fed is, in fact, a private corporation which has been granted a monopoly on the issuance of money by the public authority of government. It is therefore a public-private partnership--an alignment which many political scientists define as Fascism.

    It is important to state that private banking control of the Federal Reserve Bank is not significant for the direct profits which member banks accrue. It is the CONTROL over the money supply, the MANIPULATION of the general conditions of credit and debt and the POLITICAL POWER associated with the private ownership of the nation's central bank which is meaningful.

    The "Federal" Reserve is Federal in name only.
    It is comprised of private banks and serves private banking interests and is accountable to no public authority.

    One might assume that a "Reserve Bank" makes loans from cash reserves held on deposit.

    One might think that the funds allocated in the recent "bailouts" came from such cash reserves.

    And one might believe that money does not grow on trees or just fall from the sky.

    One might be very wrong.

    The Federal Reserve Bank creates money "out of thin air" by fiat (on command) and then loans it out at interest to the Federal Government and the member banks of the Federal Reserve System.

    The Federal Reserve Bank exists to create DEBT through the issuance of fiat money.

    You might also think that the "created out of nothing" money known as the "Federal Reserve Note" is somehow backed by the holdings of the Federal Reserve Bank or the U.S. Treasury Department.

    Nope. Wrong again!

    The Federal Reserve Bank does hold some gold and it does maintain a reserve requirement for its member banks. But the amount of gold and cash reserves held does not account for even a tiny fraction of the massive amounts of debt money it creates. There are simply no limits to the amount of money--debt-- that the Fed can create at will.

    • 3 votes
    #1.28 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
    roadlesstraveled

    I have an Idea for a Bailout, but this one will actually do something to help.

    Its called Restore America Stimulus:

    OK, since so many find that welfare programs breed more welfare recipients, I thought of a way for those recipients, unemployment recipients, and anyone who needs work and can prove an serious loss of wages in the last six months, to put in their fair share of work and help America get back on track. Keeping in mind the construction business (small business, boss is your buddy type companies) were hit the hardest and so many are out of work.

    Taxes are a burden for everyone, and any welfare just doesnt seem very fair any more, (if it ever was, for those that never needed it).

    Anyone receiving welfare or unemployment benefits (food stamps, medical, cash assistance, WIC, ect..)

    Must put in a certain number of hours each week. Working only in your own zip code, you will report to a "officer" (someone in charge of that crew via zip code). They find a part of the community that needs repairing or clean up or preparation for a coming season.

    This is were the stimulus part comes in. The "officer/crew leader" submits a request to the local DES office for supplies (ex. it will cost $200.00 to buy paint supplies to clean up the graffiti next to the circle K on...)The government sets out $500billion for the entire country divided by state, equally, broken all the way down to zip codes. The DES (in control of the spending) office will cut a pre-printed check to ONLY our/your local hardware and supply stores (construction and its retailers hit hardest by recession, so they need it the most), no bids, no heavy construction...just local stuff, little stuff. Then each week they meet and work for what they are getting (welfare, unemployment) bases on skills...which could lead to permanent positions if needed...we could prove these jobs are needed and bring work back to America (they say the jobs that are gone are gone for good, but we can create new jobs, needed jobs) The data base for participants is already there, with unemployment and DES, its just organizing it...that's all.

    We together could:

    Prepare for Hurricane season

    Trim the forest for fire season

    Prepare sandbags for floods

    fix fallen walls and fences

    Clean up sidewalks, parks, parking lots, Etc. etc......

    RESTORE AMERICA

    Work for what you take!

    no longer will it be something for nothing...this would be so good for every ones community!

    Spending the money from the bottom up, IT WILL WORK

    • 7 votes
    #1.29 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:29 PM EDT
    roadlesstraveled

    ^sorry, I know this article is about not spending...or how much has already been spent....but I really think that we the people could spend in a way that could help...but keeping a careful eye on our government is very necessary.

    • 4 votes
    #1.30 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:52 PM EDT
    ROY WILSON-336103

    "When the recession officially began in December 2007, the total public debt outstanding stood at $9.149 trillion. As of April 1, 2009, the figure had risen to $11.110 trillion. The difference comes to $1.961 trillion."

    It's really not that hard. Just subtract the increased value in government assets from the $1.961 trillion and you get the answer. Sort of like buying a house for $200,000 which reduces your cash by $200,000 and increases your assets by $200,000 for a net change in "equity" of $0. Simple accounting 101.

    • 1 vote
    #1.31 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
    Neg

    Roads, great post! But, it makes sense so the Government won't understand it! It needs to be a least 500-800 pages long.

    • 4 votes
    #1.32 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:38 PM EDT
    isn'tchangegood

    This whole bailout fiasco started with gwbush. I think Obama is doing a great job because he got thrown into a firestorm that bush created. Bush is the worst president ever and it is a proven fact period.

    • 3 votes
    #1.33 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:41 PM EDT
    SuzyQ

    Notice how MSN buries its head in the sand and hasn't even mentioned all the Tea Parties that are being organized around the country. The Tea Parties are apparently in protest of all the government spending and the taxes that will be laid on us. I guess MSN figures that if they don't mention anything, it doesn't really exist. No wonder they have lost all credibility.

    • 4 votes
    #1.34 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
    john-993215

    Bush was a f___k up, but that cant be the repeated answer for this administration's inneffective and improper use of trillions of dollars. while we already have a trillion dollar budget gap we are preparing for the expenditure of trillions more. trillions might i add we borrow from countries such as china. then the money is spent irresponsibly after we get it. there is no long term investment and what feels good is being spent on the whim.

    • 6 votes
    #1.35 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
    isn'tchangegood

    I had to go through a bunch of B.S. when bush was the president for eight years. So now all you republicans will have to deal with Obama for eight years beacuse he will get reelected in 2012. GO OBAMA

    • 3 votes
    #1.36 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
    ms-397461

    AZ,

    I think Obama is doing a great job because he got thrown into a firestorm that bush created.

    Actually, he is making the economic problems worse.

    Bush is the worst president ever and it is a proven fact period.

    Based on what? Your objective opinion?

    So now all you republicans will have to deal with Obama for eight years

    Thanks for the heads up on the pain that the entire country, not just republicans, is enduring.

    • 4 votes
    #1.37 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
    isn'tchangegood

    I'm sorry for hurting your feelings ms-397461. FLMAO!!! No this is a fact not my opinion. You republicans get all butt hurt when people disagree with you. WAAAA!!!!! GO OBAMA GO OBAMA

    • 2 votes
    #1.38 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
    ms-397461

    Feel free to argue, just make sure that you have some substance to your comments. You sound like a child in your posts..."I know you are, but what am I?"

    Do you have opinions about policy, or only about people?

    • 4 votes
    #1.39 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
    dewintre200

    Abolish the Federal Reserve please.

    I have a feeling when this country collapses and the dollar goes into default, there's going to be a lot of bullet dodging going on.

    • 2 votes
    #1.40 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:26 PM EDT
    John-385319Deleted
    bobm-346250

    Something New Please-the only thing I remember Nixon doing illegal was trying to cover up an incident you know like Obama is now doing trying to cover up his actual right to serve as president. As far as Bush II I guess you will have to tell me what he did that was against the law because I am sure I don't know. I was referring to a bona-fide crook and liar named Clinton, although I know he is not the only crook and liar within the government.

    • 2 votes
    #1.42 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
    kit-744420

    Greg, excellent post. Thanks!!!! It's so nice to get an honest and informed opinion instead of the usuall name calling.

    • 2 votes
    #1.43 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:08 PM EDT
    Mature Grits

    road - good post. Part of the reason we have so many aliens (legal and illegal) is that there are so many people on welfare - and your ideas would put them to work. Unfotunately, that just won't do at all! Many of those on welfare only want their check - and they don't want to be told they have to work to earn it!

    AZ - you are a pathetic child who has no clue as to the level of economic destruction this excuse of a community organizer has created! Take a look at the total picture of what the "economic stimulus" has already done to our economy - the future is going to be worse! You need to wake up and realize that the theft caused by the taxation is not only coming out of "John Public's" pocket but yours as well!

    • 3 votes
    #1.44 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:09 PM EDT
    roadlesstraveled

    Many of those on welfare only want their check - and they don't want to be told they have to work to earn it!

    Which is why they would have to earn every dollar if some kind of plan like the one I proposed would be implemented.

    taking our socialism to a level where it would be accepted, so that families with less receiving others tax money can say, Thank You! I think that's what most of us want, some appreciation for our hard working tax dollars, something in return....a beautiful community, like it was suppose to be!

    And if you are not disabled, and will not work, you get nothing....an end to "-trash"

    Its community service, which is what the programs should have been in the first place.

    • 3 votes
    #1.45 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:37 PM EDT
    Something new please

    bobm-346250

    Nixon - Conducted secret bombings in Cambodia. Lied to Congress about it. Illegally fired the special prosecutor (and in the attempt two attorneys general) that was investigating him. And, of course, Watergate. Suffice it to say he needed the next president to pardon him or he would have gone to jail.

    Bush II - The Patriot Act. Torture. Firing federal prosecutors for political reasons. Giving no-bid contracts to his buddies. Lying to Congress about WMD and connection with al-quaeda.

    Clinton - Lied to a grand jury (the American people too, but that's actually not a crime) about an improper extra-marital relationship. Whitewater - nothing proved, but something stinks. Letting large contributors sleep in the Lincoln bedroom (not a crime, but conduct unbecoming a POTUS).

    I look over the crimes and think that Clinton isn't the worst of the lot. But I welcome your thoughts.

    • 1 vote
    #1.46 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
    bobm-346250

    I guess this is really pointless since both Nixon and Clinton were cast from the same mold but how do you say Nixon lying to congress is more of a crime than lying to a grand jury. I believe that has a name of perjury and having sex with someone who you are in charge of and have the ability to promote or demote is called sexual harrasement and is indeed a crime. However, for Bush I see nothing that is against the law. Maybe unethical but if congress was so stupid as to allow it to happen who's fault is the war anyway. I personally think the torture thing is a bunch of BS. Something a bunch of bleeding heart liberals want to say is so wrong while our enemies behead people in front of an audience or dragged our downed pilots bodies through cheering crowds. I will never believe what we did was anything close to what our people are exposed to. This not only includes our military but also civilians. So I guess we could split hairs all day long so let's just say that ethics have not been part of the whitehouse agenda for sometime and it is not getting any better. I think when Obama provides a certified copy of a birth certificate to prove he can hold the office of president than I will be satisfied. And if it is not such a big deal why doesn't he just do it and put all speculation to rest.

      #1.47 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:26 PM EDT
      charles0390-1Deleted
      dale-763548

      right now it looks like the Democrats are taking a lot of money from the Democrats and giving it to the Republican bankers.

      to save their asses.

      • 1 vote
      #1.49 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:38 PM EDT
      fmd

      SMVCPA, you say " Did you know over 20% of the elderly in the US lives in nursing homes, broke and being slowly terminated with exelarated doses of various coctails of pills? Do you have any proof of that? If you don't, you better hope you can't be identified on an open board because you could be sued for libel.

      • 1 vote
      #1.50 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:01 PM EDT
      Reply
      peacejoyandlove

      Too much. I, for one have become "fed" up with the welfare thrown at business. When the going gets tough, the tough are revealed to be like my puffed wheat - seem solid till the milk hits them. Let them fail - Better now, while I am still alive than later, when I am dead, having been drained by the financial vampires, the undead fed. It will all come out of the mouths of the little fellow in the end.

      It all makes Altzheimer's look like a welcome event.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:54 AM EDT
      Stone5150

      Unfortunately corporate welfare isn't new, ask the airlines. It is getting a bit ridiculous lately though.

      I don't understand how they reason that a big business cannot fail, but it is OK to allow a 1,000 small businesses go under.

      • 9 votes
      #2.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:59 AM EDT
      ms-397461

      The big companies have there hands in the pocket of the "elected" officials (elected due to campaigns funded by the same).

      THE GOVERNEMNT SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHO IS "TOO BIG TO FAIL". Let the free market decide this!

      • 12 votes
      #2.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:44 AM EDT
      2009worriedaboutUSA

      MS Liked your post but I would have said Congress, has its hands in the pockets of the companies. After all they (congress) have a lot to pay back. Its an expensive venture to be elected time and again all the while screwing, those of us who voted for the crooks. Might seem a tad simplistic but you get the drift. I would like to know what Congress and the Capital are doing to cut back personal spending, and if they are the least bit worried over loosing their jobs in 2010 and 2012 They needed a cost of living raise, while millions are still unemployed, and there will be even more as time passes. I imagine that some will complain about the cost of rescuing the Captain, but have we ever thought how much it cost for Queen P to fly home and undermind America with her immigration crap. HOODWINKED! everyone of us!

      • 3 votes
      #2.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:01 AM EDT
      bobm-346250

      Congress is the biggest reapers of white collar welfare. They don't have to do one thing that they promised in the election and there is not one thing the voter can do about it. At least when companies hire someone who says he will turn the business around and they don't then they can be fired. We are stuck with these clowns once they lie their way into office and then we are on the hook for their big benefits for the rest of their lives. Wouldn't the voters like to have a piece of that pie. We are lucky we don't lose our jobs let alone be guaranteed that we will be provided for for the rest of our lives.

      • 4 votes
      #2.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:49 AM EDT
      CommonSenseOR

      Prices did not go down when cheap labor replaced Americans as workers. Prices have not gone down at all. Its a lie/myth. But you have to be old enough to remember when the transition took place. Prices are down for products "Made in China", but at what cost? Melamine in infant formula, poisoned prescription/OTC drugs, BPA in plastics, etc.

      • 1 vote
      #2.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:23 PM EDT
      Reply
      BamaSucksIt-Deleted
      SNAPPA

      Not for nothing, the government under President Bush put out 3.249 TRILLION dollars adding to the deficit, why then are the republicans now whining about what President Obama is doing. The double standard in this country is overwhelming.

      The Republicans need to shut up and work with the president to fix this mess nevermind Gingrich and his ilk he's part of the issue that got us to where we are today.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:41 AM EDT
      ms-397461

      Obama wanted transparency, now he got it...and we don't like what we see! I don't like that Bush started this trend of bailouts, and I opposed it then!

      Your double standard argument works against you doesn't it? You didn't back Bush...

      Just because Obama was elected, does not make him or his cronies experts. It only means, he was popular.

      • 11 votes
      #4.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:49 AM EDT
      Conservatismworks

      Yo SNAPPA.........you sound like a spunky lib/socialist/obama worshiper.....why don't you come on here and tell me how Gingrich is part of the issue?????

      "Contract with America" would that be his efforts in Welfare Reform and efforts in Congress balancing the budget under his watch. Logic doesn't fly in a libs mind and that's an oxy moron (lib/mind)

      SNAPPA regardless if you like it or not obama is a radical muslim socialist marxist who is bringing America down via George Souros and under the mentoring of william ayers and motivated by the hate of jeremiah wright.....he says one thing and does another.

      How many Presidents have you seen go over seas and bad mouth this country and say it is not a Christian country when it was founded on Christianity???? Sorry but I have no other word but idiot is going to take this country down unless we the people end it for him. Any first ladies stated, "I am just now proud of this country" she should go back to her homeland of Africa and he can go back to where he's citizen kenya.

      I won't hold my breath for why Gingrich is responsible......don't post trash like that unless you know what you're saying.

      Everyone should now get on board now that the libs have their radical idiot in there...however before that it was hate Bush....hypocrites maxed out!!!

      We sweep it in 2010 and the radical is out on his ears in 2012!!!!!!!!!! Once but not twice will this idiot lie to the people and they buy it. Watch him a year from now start acting conservative to get reelected....won't happen if he even makes it thru the first term.

      • 5 votes
      #4.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
      Greg-281912

      I never voted for a Bush, or Obama, or Clinton.

      I always vote straight Libertarian, and my vote is primarily a vote against all incumbents.

      I, personally, want REAL change, not just talk about change.

      • 6 votes
      #4.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:10 AM EDT
      DrowningGrover

      SNAPPA regardless if you like it or not obama is a radical muslim socialist marxist who is bringing America down via George Souros and under the mentoring of william ayers and motivated by the hate of jeremiah wright.....he says one thing and does another.

      lol, yeah right. When will you people learn that your arguments sound a lot more credible without the need for this nonsense...

      What, did you just use a list of every "ism" fox news has used in the last week?

      • 2 votes
      #4.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:44 AM EDT
      roadlesstraveled

      The double standard in this country is overwhelming.

      Party over morals/open mindedness is whats overwhelming

      • 2 votes
      #4.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:02 PM EDT
      isn'tchangegood

      Go SNAPPA!!!! I agree with you 100%. All these republicans are just a bunch of crybabies and need to just shut the hell up. GO OBAMA

      • 2 votes
      #4.6 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:01 PM EDT
      ms-397461

      Good argument AZ. I have enjoyed all of your talking points in previous posts.

      • 2 votes
      #4.7 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:15 PM EDT
      kit-744420

      Snappa, so did you support Bush too? You imply that they operate in the same way so either you support both, or neither. Which is it? Hint: think before you post.

        #4.8 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
        Mature Grits

        ms - what transparency? The only transparency BO has given is that he will sign anything put in front of him by Pelosi and company. Other than that, his government-policies are all smoke and mirrors - tell the taxpaying public one thing and then do the other!

        • 2 votes
        #4.9 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:14 PM EDT
        eeein

        You people need to wake up. Democrats or Repuplicans, it's all the same. It all depends on who is being payed off at the time . Yes before it was the Repl's. And now it's the Dem's. IT IS THE SYSTEM THAT NEEDS TO GO!

        • 3 votes
        #4.10 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:23 PM EDT
        Reply
        tony-1024691

        fix the problem???give the money to the AMERICAN PEOPLE not to the banks and loan companies.i tried to get a loan last week,you know what i was told???we are not giving loans right now.thanks american general!!!give the money to the AMERICANS and watch how fast the world gets fixed!!

        • 1 vote
        Reply#5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
        ms-397461

        Sounds good Tony...except...the American people helped create this mess! We (Americans), in general, do not know how to manage money! We don't deserve some type of "refund". No money should move anywhere. Let businesses fail. Let us Americans learn a hard lesson!

        We WILL come through this, but we need an attitude adjustment first!

        • 1 vote
        #5.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT
        Reply
        Robin Steele

        Here's what you do: Print up 50 trillion bucks and send everybody around a half million. Declare national bankruptcy which would trash the value of the dollar but absolve all debts held within the US. Due to the devalued dollar, we could produce products far more cheaply here than importing them, and by placing price controls in the beginning of this (a la Nixon) we could get the most bang for the buck. Countries like China and Saudi Arabia who have manipulated currencies and markets in order to take over our economy could then go #U[K off back to where they belong.

          Reply#6 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:54 AM EDT
          tenx

          I have been telling everyone I know that we have not seen the worst, yet. Obama has accelerated what others started years ago. What is the true reaction. Not the one that the media keeps portraying? Look at the escalating violence. The increased home, and job loss. The government pushing Government backed jobs. When are you going to face reality? Our government has orchestrated a perfect Socialist take over. As the populace gradually wakes up to this fact, we are seeing more violent reactions to the results. Of course the government is trying to sneak in a gun control bill. I guess my question is, Are the members of law enforcement, and our military, going to honor the oaths they took, and protect our constitution? Are they going to refuse to commit unconstitutional, lawless orders. as they promised when they took their oath? Obviously our president, legislative, and judicial, branches, of our federal government, have no intention of honoring their oath.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#7 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
          student of history

          This is exactly what they have in mind. Can you think of any other way to make the worlds' reserve currency worthless, i.e. the dollar? Then it can be replaced by a "global currency" which is being called for by at least two of the worlds' largest countries. One more piece of the puzzle in place soon

          • 2 votes
          Reply#8 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:08 AM EDT
          brad-530094

          when they report the bush spending from 2002 - 2008 is when we will need someone to explain how we pushed the debt to 55 trillion without telling america. 55 TRILLION!!!!!!!!!!! 

          • 1 vote
          Reply#9 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
          cs1701a

          Where in the world do you come up with that number. It's 5 times what everyone says the debt is??

          • 1 vote
          #9.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
          brad-530094

          bush didnt report spending since 02- the comptroller then gave an interview in 08 saying that by his reports(his job-his numbers) the debt was around 55 trillion. since it is the job of the comptroller to know this im going with his numbers-not the lies

            #9.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:36 AM EDT
            nukelar

            The number includes dedicare and social security obligations: national debt @ $11-13 Trillion, SS & MED @ $75 Trillion.......have fun paying for that..............

              #9.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
              DrowningGrover

              the sad part nukelar is that there would be PLENTY of money to pay for Social security in the coming years had Congress not elected to steal the surplus monies in the mid 80's (1984ish if I remember correctly).

              Social security was taking in more than it was paying out, and instead of letting the nest egg build for when the baby boomers retired, congress took that surplus and spent it on crap. That is the ONLY reason why SS is in trouble, and it's a damn shame...

              • 3 votes
              #9.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:49 AM EDT
              brad-530094

              that doesnt include ss/md - the bush reg didnt report spending for 6 years - the wars both abroad and here(he gave blackwater 10billion for war on drugs)

                #9.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:12 PM EDT
                Reply
                CARL THE PLUMBER

                The latest on the GM bankruptcy is that they are going to split it into two corporations. one a new company that has all of the lower paying jobs and smaller health and retirement benefits, the other being a company that holds the liability of the retired workers and their lucrative benefits. The second one over 70 billion to be paid by the fed govt (taxpayers). What the heck is going on, wake up amd smell the coffee. This payback to the UAW is ridiculous. Even you libs have to be outraged over this.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#10 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
                John-385319Deleted
                DrowningGrover

                Carl,

                i'm a lot less outraged over $70B giong to cover the healthcare and pension costs of retired lifetime workers of this country than I am about several Trillions $$'s being given to wall st. and their cronies...

                Why we let GM fail and bailed out AIG is beyond me (although I suspect it has to do with Paulson, Geithner, and Bernanke's Goldman Sachs connections)...

                nothing outrages the dims/libs when it comes to irresponsible spending of course as long as they don't have to pay the bill and the handouts just keep on a flowin'

                That's an amusing comment considering nearly all the national debt we have was accrued in the last 30 years under Republican presidents....

                • 2 votes
                #10.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:53 AM EDT
                Reply
                MB-899612

                When are you LAZY "reporters" going to start telling the TRUTH!!!!!

                The "FEDERAL RESERVE" is NOT a governmental agency!  The "FEDERAL RESERVE" is a PRIVATE CORPORATION!  One NOT authorized by the US Constitution!  It is the most corrupt corporation in the world formed to steel from the American people untold Trillions of dollars!

                Get it straight!

                • 2 votes
                Reply#11 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT
                DrowningGrover

                exactly. I noticed a lot of the "government spending" this article lists were just giveaways by the Fed, not voted on by Congress or anyone!

                These are not considered "government spending", it's just the Fed doing as they please and devaluing YOUR life savings...

                • 2 votes
                #11.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:55 AM EDT
                Reply
                John-385319Deleted
                CommonSenseOR

                It's long past time to reinstate the 70-90% tax brackets on upper-incomes, just like after the Great Depression, to pay off this national debt. These upper-inocme tax brackets are proven, they worked and must be implemented again or else those of us and our children and grandchildren who had nothing to do with this financial mess will pay dearly as those who caused the problem profited handsomely and got all their losses paid off with our tax money.

                  Reply#13 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:30 AM EDT
                  lvingbarefoot

                  The war paid off the debt moron. Go smoke some more of that good Oregon weed and hate the rich some more.

                  • 1 vote
                  #13.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:34 AM EDT
                  ms-397461

                  common...You are an idiot. Punish people who make more...just because they make more? Take your goose-stepping elsewhere.

                  • 2 votes
                  #13.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
                  Lynn-300649

                  Are you serious? Why do you think I should pay for your healthcare, pension, etc? Save your own money and we wouldn't need Social Security, get a job or two and we won't need welfare. JEZ!!!

                  • 2 votes
                  #13.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                  angie-817251

                  If we reinstated those obscene tax rates we would drive this country even further

                  into the pit. These people would leave the country etc. Have you ever been given

                  a job by a poor person? And for all of those who keep saying Bush's tax cut's were only for the rich, please read this report from the CBO

                  As a result of the 2001 tax cuts enacted by a bipartisan Congress and signed by President George W. Bush, the share of taxes paid by the top 10% increased to 72.8% in 2005 from 67.8% in 2001, according to the latest data from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO).
                  Contrary to the myth that Mr. Bush cut taxes only for the wealthy, the 2001 tax cut reduced taxes for every income-tax payer in the country. He reduced the bottom tax rate to 10% from 15% and increased the refundable child tax credit to $1,000 from $500 per child, both cuts that President Barack Obama says we should keep. In so doing, millions of lower income taxpayers were removed from the tax rolls, shifting the remaining burden to those at the top, even after their taxes were cut.

                  • 1 vote
                  #13.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
                  dolores-310544

                  COMMON SENSE So this is your plan: 2010 - Tax those making $1 million and over 90%; 2011 - Tax those making over $500,000 and over 90%; 2012 - Tax those making over $100,000 90%; 2012 - Tax those on welfare 90%. Good advice!!!! What about my COMMON SENSE advice: stop spending and taxing more and more? That's how I paid for my house and credit cards. Seems to me if I can do it with no nobel prize, economics degree and knowing 1 plus 1 equals 2 our birdbrain government could figure this out also. Margaret Thatcher said "Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money". Can't you libs or anyone in our newly formed socialist government figure this out?

                  • 2 votes
                  #13.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
                  CommonSenseOR

                  Read your history. Those upper-income tax brackets are proven and provided prosperity for decades starting right after the Great Depression. Companies paid their workers a living wage and great benefits because there was no incentive anymore for them to hoard all the profits at the top like we have today (we are at a pre-Great Depression phase all over again - history has repeated itself). I do realize that many of you probably are not old enough to have parents or grandparents who lived through the Great Depression nor have you learned about it from history class or done any research on your own to see what happened. When President Kennedy cut the top tax rate of 94% down to 70% the financial problems in this country started. Reagan, who later said he regretted the bad effects of 'trickle-down economics' on the rising national debt, and then Bushes cut taxes again the national debt rose exponentially. Ask anyone who is over 40 and they will tell you what they have seen in their lifetime. Economists warned for the past 30 years of an unsustainable national debt as the debt rose in proportion to the tax cuts. So, before you call anyone a moron - do some research - educate yourself - to see how we got to where we are now or listen to those of us who have lived it. I am amazed at how little is known about all of this by those under 40. You will be easily manipulated into not holding anyone accountable for this exploding national debt that you and your children and grandchildren will be paying for, while those who have left you the bill go off into the sunset, robbing you of future prosperity, with no consequences for what they have done to the country financially. Also, listen to Warren Buffet, who has said that he pays less taxes than anyone working for him.

                    #13.6 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:20 AM EDT
                    CommonSenseOR

                    dolores-

                    This is not my plan, this is what went into affect after the Great Depression. And it worked, resulting in prosperity for the country for decades afterwards until President Kennedy started the ball rolling on reducing taxes on the wealthy. I am just reminding everyone of what worked in the past, after the worst financial catastrophe in world history. Again, it is not my plan - it is what was implemented after the Great Depression and has proven itself to work.

                      #13.7 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
                      dolores-310544

                      COMMON SENSE - World War II ended the Great Depression. Thank you very much. Americans: spend less, less tax income revenue, let businesses fail (if they fail, they weren't any good to begin with). More power to the people and not government, after all don't they work for us? Don't we pay these morons in government salaries?

                      • 1 vote
                      #13.8 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
                      CommonSenseOR

                      dolores -

                      I know that WW2 helped end the Great Depression. The upper-income tax brackets ensured that a small rogue group of elites could no longer bring down the US financial system while profiting handsomely themselves....until Congress reversed the regulations put in place back then and helped cause today's problem, among other things. Wars will never get us out of financial meltdowns again, not in our current situation, because 99% of everything manufactured for wars is now done overseas, not here in the U.S. So greed reigns supreme again....and we get stuck with the bill in the form of an unsustainable national debt, no regulatory reform and no money for things the country really needs like infrastructure, college funding, adequate state funding, etc. Greed must be contained. No more borrow-and-spend. Let the free market work. No bailouts!

                        #13.9 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:13 PM EDT
                        chop007

                        Warren Buffet and the other "super rich" live off of capital gains and are therefore taxed at a lower rate than the rest of us.

                          #13.10 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:08 PM EDT
                          CommonSenseOR

                          chop007-

                          That's precisely why capital gains should go back to being taxed as regular income again. Since the Reagan era, a lot of people in the top 2% got very wealthy from all of the tax cuts, then passed the exploding national debt resulting from the loss of tax revenue on to future generations.

                            #13.11 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:35 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            jbond-723848

                            We can only blame the un-educated voters, through all the years for this mess. It did not start with Bush, anyone one with half a brain knows this. This started way before Obama, Bush, and Clinton got into office. Unfortunately he is going to continue to spend his way through this insanity and our children and grand children will pay for this. We will never ever know the amount of money that is being printed,squandered, and just plain mis-appropriated. If you dont have the money you dont spend it. If you need to budget, you cut back. This is like living on credit cards. You just don't do it and I just don't get it. Thank God I did not vote for any of these obtuse morons who are running our country, and if you did you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Get an education people before you vote. They all need to go.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#14 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:39 AM EDT
                            ms-397461

                            I am so tired of the blame-game also. Seems like we are trying to fix this problem using the same methods that got us into the problem...

                            We aren't as smart as let on to be.

                            • 4 votes
                            #14.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:42 AM EDT
                            Dave-892107

                            ms,

                            What a lot of people don't understand is the Federal government doesn't operate like a corporation. I was in the Navy for 20 yrs and every year commanders would tell us to make sure we spent all our "Optar funds" money in our Budget, so they could justify more money the next year, you see the government is about spending money not saving/making money.

                              #14.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
                              ms-397461

                              It would be in the countries best interest for the government to pay off our national debt, which would seem like saving (not spending).

                              10 years in the Nav for me, out now, no budget experience.

                              • 1 vote
                              #14.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:42 PM EDT
                              DrowningGrover

                              It would be in the countries best interest for the government to pay off our national debt

                              actually, to do so would be disastrous. To have no national debt would mean we have no money in the system. In fact, it's IMPOSSIBLE to pay off the national debt, as there has not been enough money created to ever pay it off.

                              It is this way by design, and is setup as such to produce never ending interest payments for the Fed and its cronies.

                              Welcome to central banking!

                              (as an aside, i was giong to link to a FANTASTIC video called "money as debt" that shows exactly what i described above, however not-to-my-surprise it has been taken down off google video...

                              Conspiracy theorists rejoice!)

                                #14.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:04 PM EDT
                                chop007

                                Dave-892107--

                                You are correct. When I worked in a particular operating room, we were told that it was better for our budget if we did NOT leave early when business was slow. ( We found all sorts of creative things to do until our shift was over.) The bean counters would see that we were "saving" money and therefore DECREASE our budget for the next year saying we were "too heavy" on nursing personnel--meaning "work your nurses harder"

                                  #14.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:13 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  chop007

                                  Somewhere in the writings of assorted magazines and on the web, I came across the cost of this financial fiasco to the American taxpayer.  It stated the cost to be "$42,000 + for each American citizen".  That's great, but not every citizen is a taxpayer.  So the real cost is probably double or triple for each taxpayer.  When is it going to end?  Now the crooks on the "The Hill" are trying to take away our mortgage deduction and increase our payroll taxes to pay for programs that won't be around when we go to collect for our share.  Does this sound fair?  

                                  I cannot understand congresses refusal to stand up to Obama.  Why is everyone afraid of him?  Do not pass his plans---make up your own to HELP people, not hurt them further.

                                   

                                  This mortgage deduction will KILL the housing and banking industries--the very industries the government "wants" to help.  Maybe this is the plan.  The government controls EVERYTHING and you then become socialized.  You can't/don't own anything so you then become beholden to the government for all of your needs. 

                                  Medicare and Social Security need to be reformed.  Taxing the people to fund these programs  in their current manner is NOT the  answer.  Cuts need to be made to recepients as well.  This does NOT sit well with me, but it is what needs to be done or the programs will fail.  FRAUD also needs to be addressed.  I have never know so many people who are "disabled" as I am beginning to see in the last few years.  Disability laws need to be tightened up.  SInce when does "bad nerves" count as a disability?  I have bad nerves---I have a teenage son!!  Can I apply for disability? 

                                  As my husband and I are getting ready to buy a home in a couple of weeks, we keep asking ourselves, is this worth it?  We WANT the mortgage deduction, isn't that why people buy a home of their own? 

                                  Any thoughts from other 'viners?  :)

                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#15 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
                                  Lynn-300649

                                  You are so right, how come substance abuse is a disability, I to know of some who really are about as disabled as I am NOT. There are those who truly need help and support they are disabled through no fault of their own, I don't mind my tax dollars going there. Why is it we have to pay for those who aren't smart enough to keep their legs together or use birth control?

                                  My advice is to buy a home you can afford on one salary, live comfortable but not excessive, save and never be afraid to save for what you want don't use a credit card.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #15.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:50 AM EDT
                                  ms-397461

                                  Go ahead and buy a house while you can take advantage of the interest rates. That's the long term benefit, which is the best way to think about a ome purchase. My wife and I got in on a VA loan for 4.875%. It really makes a difference in payments. THINK LONG TERM. Short term thinking is what got the housing market into a huge mess.

                                  Buy what you can afford NOW...comfortably. Tax credits/deductions are benefits to buying a home, they should not be the reason you buy it. Buy it because the house itself makes sense for your family, and it makes sense financially (long term). You'll be okay if you have favorable responses to those two reasons.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #15.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:50 AM EDT
                                  randall-736902

                                  Lynne - just for the record, substance abuse is NOT a disablity, although alcoholism is.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:36 AM EDT
                                  Mature Grits

                                  Many people want to know why we have called for "Tea Parties" throughout the country to protest the taxation-without-representation we are currently experiencing through the elected officials -

                                  Well, your comments above are exact why!

                                    #15.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    sygh

                                    “I don't know where $10 trillion comes from,” Bernanke replied curtly. Boy, is that an understatement.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    Reply#16 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:52 AM EDT
                                    ms-397461

                                    I saw a reporter last week ask if "quadrillion" was a real number. Go journalists!

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #16.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                                    sygh

                                    Bernanke should have added, And I don't care!

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #16.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:12 PM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    Phil-1006700

                                    They don't know how much money is spent . They don't read the bills that they sign and I'm suppose to trust them. But they will stand there and tell us that 90% of the guns going to Mexico come from the US. Then our president will say we are no longer a nation of Christians. That's from a man who doesn't church his family and when he did it was a church of hate whitie. That's where he took his children. Let's see what Obama will do with future pirates, maybe he can call them "HIGH SEAS Businessmen". All we have to do is give them a job and lead then down the right path also spend trillions to stop that nation from going under.With all that is going on what is being done for the hard working Christian , or any other honest religion, man? GM is failing not because of its workers but because of it's leaders,both GM and union. I was a teamster for many years and I saw how they put trucking companies out of business one after another because it was too expensive to keep, nevermind hire a new driver.I am seeing hard times in the future because of the dishonesty of our politians. We now have dictators running this country who couldn't run a lemonade stand. Palosi and Reid are so far outta touch with reality. Seems to me if we are in such a crissis that they would want every person to help in solving this problem . so far it has been a one sided solution and the American public will be called on to start paying for it. Obama says he is cutting taxes for 95% of all Americans good for him. How about the 100% of Americans that will see tax increases from their state and local governments.Cigarette taxes just increased to help pay for youth health programs. There are already programs in place in many states , build on them or take them off the books. Seniors are in convelsant homes under Social Security and the care they receive is deplorable. IS that an example of gov't run programs? As a nation we must return to the Christian values we were founded on , not party values and the almighty dollar that our representives seem to be concerned about. Chris Dodd is the perfect example, I'm sure there are republicans too , nobody is inocent but we better start acting like Christians. Doing so we will stand taller and be more helpful to those around us . The other option will be far less appealing when 70% of your earnings will be to the government for programs that won't concern you.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    Reply#17 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
                                    urlemmings

                                    NO RELGION IN GOVERNMENT

                                    SEPARATION CHURCH AND STATE

                                    Just about everyone is an atheist when it comes to other gods — the gods that other people believe in or that nobody believes in anymore. I’m an atheist because there's no reliable evidence for any god, or even for Jesus. There is also extensive evidence that Jesus and all gods are fictional characters — myths created mainly by primitive people who had little understanding of how our universe operates. We all like myths and other stories, but we don't have to believe them.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #17.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                                    dolores-310544

                                    Go tell that to every convict in prison or on death row. All of them quickly find religion, at least the smart ones do!!!

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:18 AM EDT
                                    Phil-1006700

                                    urlemmings, no one said to let religon run this country . that's where you are so wrong on everything. If people have a belief that creates a concious then their concious will guide them . Today people like you are so snub and know it all but you still can't create one thing. If scientist can make something out of dirt then it is Gods dirt that they are using. they can't make something out of nothing. Also Jesus has been around for 2 thousand years, you will be forgotten ten minutes after you die.Plus let me put you in a foxhole and see how you stand up when the odds are against you. there is more truth in the saying "There's no Atheist in a foxhole". It's the like of people like you that destroy all the good in this world. Please go find another place to live I believe in christian values and in this country.I don't follow a party like you do.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #17.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
                                    skipster56

                                    I found it interesting that the media reported Obama and his family went to Church on Easter Sunday, but also said the Obama's are not sure what Church they want to attend. They reported that they are looking around Washington for a Chruch. I don't know about anyone else, but when I was brought up in church, I KNOW where I want to attend, when I move to that area. It's going to be interesting to see which denomination he will choose, as Revernd Wright is not in Washington, (Yet)

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #17.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:37 AM EDT
                                    ms-397461

                                    skipster, You are right. It's a political move. Just like Newt joined the Roman Catholic Church in D.C. Sad that when Christians get into office (or try to) that faith-based actions become strategies for public approval. God knows his heart, and is the only Judge. If he calls himself Christian, I call him "brother". Too bad I don't think my brother has a clue how to run the country!

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
                                    chop007

                                    I do not understand all of this "we are looking for a church" business. What is that about?

                                    We are Greek Orthodox. When we moved to a new town, we sought out the Greek Orthodox church in that town/area. That was our new church to attend weekly.

                                    What is this "church shopping"? Don't you (Obama) have a dedicated religion? Just go to that church. If you are catholic, go to the local catholic church--or the one closest to your home, the same for methodist, presbyterian, lutheran etc. If you are looking for a new religion to define your lifestyle, then be a "convert" and worship in your new church.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #17.6 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:18 PM EDT
                                    Chick-379869

                                    Ummm...first of all, there are probably 10 Christian churches in DC near the Whitehouse, at least. I live in NC in a town of less then 5 thousand and we have over 6 Christian churches in my town.

                                    Also, as POTUS, he has to pick a church that can handle the security. He's also getting invitations from the preachers to check out their churches, hoping that he will attend there and bring thier church some publicity (and money).

                                    Of course this subject should not be a national news event, but the media has been covering this stuff for decades and will continue to do it. Just like the stories of the "first puppy".

                                      #17.7 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
                                      chop007

                                      I thought people went to church to worship God, not curry favors/votes. As to the security detail, that cannot be more difficult than protecting a president/official who is out on the lam walking around. It can be done--secret service is very well versed in their jobs.

                                      That still doesn't answer the question of what the president's religion is. I am not interested in attending services at any church other than my own.

                                        #17.8 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:22 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        M. Onger

                                        Why are these numbers, as confusing as they are, not surprising?

                                        Geithner is the Wall Street fox in Obama henhouse.

                                        (and if the GOP had won last November, we'd just have a Paulsen as the Wall Street fox in what would have been the McCain chicken coop)

                                        • 3 votes
                                        Reply#18 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:53 AM EDT
                                        kjc-939002

                                        As history has shown us the economy works in cycles, and it will recover, even with out all these bail outs. But some want a socialist country, and with that will bring higher taxes, and prices just like in every other socialist country. Not to mention the health care in socialist countries is no cake walk either, quite the oposite actually.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        Reply#19 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:54 AM EDT
                                        rz-547309

                                        He should stick to killing Pirates....we KNOW that was successful. Stop spending trillions....it's not going to be successful...

                                        • 4 votes
                                        Reply#20 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
                                        JD-585160

                                        No one should believe a single syllabol that emanates from Liar Bernanke's crooked mouth! That dude and Geithner are both so full of BS that the barnyards of Wisconsin look clean in comparison.

                                        Is it possible to send Liar Ben and Gomer Giethner to the Horn of Africa as our new Ambassors to the Pirates? If we are lucky, those pampered pirates will shoot first as their welcome wagon warming signal.

                                        Then the entire USA can stand an cheer for the Lords of Somalia.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        Reply#21 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                                        pjam

                                        This is hillarious, the government trying to control the public through misinformation.

                                        "But the net cost to taxpayers will be much lower — more like $356 billion — according to an analysis published last week by the Congressional Budget Office"

                                        $7.5 trillion become $350 million. Its just amazing that they even have the gall to publish garbage like this.

                                        If you believe this then you probably also believe the fake BS "everything is improving" that has been spewed by the administration for the last month. Do you think they would have wasted another $2 trillion since mid-march if things were actually going the way they say they are going?

                                        • 2 votes
                                        Reply#22 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
                                        rz-547309

                                        Right...so how does the other $6.650 trillion get paid back? I guess we wait and see.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #22.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
                                        Dave-892107

                                        pjam,

                                        If you think this article is funny, read the article about the jobs programs WOW the Vice Prez makes it sound like 2000 projects have already started and people are working, pure BS it'll take 6 months to a year before these projects ever get started if then.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #22.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:25 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        urlemmings

                                        Are you fed up with a Congress and a president who:

                                        - vote for a tax bill without even reading it?

                                        Okay, 1) It's not a tax bill,
                                        2) Where do you think government revenue comes from?,
                                        3) Just because YOU don't like the bill doesn't mean Congress didn't *read* it.
                                        3, part 2) I think you are mistaking the stimulus bill for the authorization of the
                                        use of force bill that Bush shoved down everyone's throats after 9/11.

                                        - are spending trillions of borrowed dollars, leaving a debt our great-grandchildren will be paying?

                                        You can't be serious. The biggest spenders in HISTORY were Reagan and George W. Bush, and thanks to their reckless and immoral spending, we've found ourselves in this recession. The debt our great-grandchildren will be paying is thanks
                                        to them, not Obama or Congressional Democrats. I'm going to make up t-shirts that say "Bush spent my grandkids' money on a PR campaign for Al Qaeda", and then use the profit to buy stock in AIG.

                                        "The Republicans released their budget counter-proposal this week. It plans to address the deficit, global warming, healthcare, energy, massive tax cuts for the rich. I'm not kidding. Also, there are no numbers in this budget.

                                        It's a budget plan without math. You know, Obama should have saved that Special Olympics joke for these retards."

                                          Reply#23 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:01 AM EDT
                                          BushHatersAreIdiots

                                          You are truely a mental case sir! It does not matter what the name or label of the politician that spent my money! The fact is that the new boss is the same as the old boss! When is America going to get off this partisan stupidity and hold all politicians accountable for their words and misdeeds?

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #23.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
                                          skipster56

                                          Go back to bed Rumplesticken. You missed the big spenders, but you woke to see the next big spender, spend your money.

                                            #23.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:40 AM EDT
                                            sygh

                                            urlemmings,

                                            AIG sounds like a good investment for you. Maybe we can get some of our money back, now that you're finally paying your way. We're counting on you. Of course, AIG is no longer AIG but you go ahead and invest there anyway.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #23.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:17 PM EDT
                                            Neg

                                            ur, you've copy and pasted that post one too many times. Can you come up with something different?

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #23.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:56 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            BushHatersAreIdiots

                                            this story is preposterous! First of all, the story should be, "How the government is cooking the books and steeling your tax money!" Not, "What is the Tab?" ? See this is what is wrong with our country. You get these insanely stupid reports from the media and the real story goes unreported. The real story about how our government has been bilking us ever since the start of Socialism Security! Folks it will never end until we the people end it!

                                            • 3 votes
                                            Reply#24 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
                                            sygh

                                            I agree with you there, is story is preposterous, not to mention it's still the most important on-going issue but being pushed aside by the Presidential family dog.

                                            It has not blown over, it's not going to blow over and it shouldn't blow over, as a matter of fact, if it keeps being handled this way, it's going to blow up!!

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #24.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:26 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Robert-654077

                                            Stone 1550

                                            I think Mr. Hussein does it like this 1 trillon, 2 trillon, 3 trillon, 4 T., 5 T, 6T, 7T, 8T, 9T, 10T, 11T, 12T, 13T, 14Trillon and then maybe 10 Trillon, or so more. The next thing I think Hussein is going to sign is the non-legal Aliens bill 55768, $10,000 at the borders to help them get started, dont't have to speak English, and free welfare and health care and all Americans have to learn mexican, Alfo- American, Muslim, ect, ect., exc., or be fined.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            Reply#25 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                                            dan in la

                                            A lot of good post here today. a lot of smart common people. Thanks for the link SMVCPA. The 45% F that Obama is getting won't resonate with the white house . They are so arrogant. Which brings me to my point of the day. We all must keep our eye on the ball. The attitude is to destroy our currency to the level with the Peso. At that time we will then call for a Euro type of currency to join together with Mexico. The dollar then will be as worthless as a confederate dollar. For the lack of knowledge i call this new currency the AMERO.

                                            Point two is that the beloved Constitution that gave this country it's breath is giving the elite a fit. In order to circumvent it the elite need to dilute it. The best way to dilute it is to get the Mexicans in the U.S. to vote. The Mexicans vote democrats and work for Republicans. This large voting block will change the way us present day Americans influence our politicians. Just look at the news as it is filtered to us now. Our judges say that they can change our laws and Constitution if world laws differ.

                                            Keep your eye on the ball yall.

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#26 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                                            Chuck T.

                                            dan, I've continually kept my eye on the ball as you've suggested, big business, relaxed regulations and plain greed and Henry Paulson have hit the ball out of the park thank you !

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #26.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
                                            DrowningGrover

                                            The 45% F that Obama is getting won't resonate with the white house .

                                            well, that's because that poll is stupid and completely unscientific.

                                            In fact it's laughable that people keep linking to it as if it means something other than the fact that Newsvine is populated with rightwing "morans"...

                                              #26.2 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:18 PM EDT
                                              ms-397461

                                              So what brings you here Drowning...?

                                              Uncomfortable that the "popular" President isn't so "popular" anymore?

                                              • 4 votes
                                              #26.3 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:37 PM EDT
                                              DrowningGrover

                                              So what brings you here Drowning...?

                                              i'm a glutton for self-punishment.

                                              Uncomfortable that the "popular" President isn't so "popular" anymore?

                                              actually, by any objective measure and according to nearly any poll he's still VERY popular (e.g. approval ratings on the order of 60-65% depending upon the poll one chooses).

                                              He's not so popular on internet chat boards because most of the people taking time to post on these things are disgruntled in some manner.

                                              In case you haven't noticed, the internets are populated predominantly with the fringe elements...

                                                #26.4 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:10 PM EDT
                                                ms-397461

                                                I definitely see that on here. What about the poll linked in post 1.8? That didn't start on newsvine (I don't think).

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #26.5 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:23 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                Chuck T.

                                                Question : Why bother ? anyone wishing to reply, no graphs , charts or statistics. Only common sense please.

                                                  Reply#27 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:05 AM EDT
                                                  Chuck T.

                                                  geesh, still no replys ????

                                                    #27.1 - Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
                                                    Reply
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