CIA objections slowed torture memos release

"If (CIA) didn't know they were committing crimes then they wouldn't have objected to the release."

You make an excellent point, Mr Snyder.

The point is already passed where any US administration can say, releasing information about our previous acts of torture/ enhanced interrogation techniques would endanger our troops, or advance the argument by former CIA chiefs that this will compromise or endanger current CIA operations or hurt CIA's 'ability to interrogate prisoners in the future'

The penchant to torture and then lie about or stonewall or conceal these violations of the Geneva Convention, documents which the United States freely signed. the United States may apparently practice historic methods of torture while at the same time categorically deny that it does. It is that hypocritical dichotomy that will provide cover to regimes which torture their prisoners, civilian or military, as a matter of course. They may now torture with clear consciences any American military personnel confident in their assurance than the United States would behave even worse with the detainees from their respective countries.

Equally sobering is that now since the practice of extraordinary rendition has been reapproved for use by the Obama administration, any US citizen traveling or studying or touring abroad may be kidnapped from one country, removed to another where they may be tortured because a third country may claim they are terrorists or that these detainees are withholding vital information making the application enhanced interrogation techniques aka torture methods absolutely necessary in their eyes. After all, even the US exempts itself from the Geneva Convention. Even the US tortures, they may rationalize.

We have lost the moral high ground on this issue.

" They also said the move would further tarnish CIA officers who had acted on the Bush officials' legal guidance. "

'Further tarnish'? Meaning they were already tarnished? They 'acted on Bush officials legal guidance'? Why does that sound so vaguely reminiscent of the Nuremberg trails where the Nazi were tried for their war crimes? Their defense was "We were only following orders" The Imperial Japanese soldiers were tried for the use of waterboarding, (the very same practice that was used on American G.I.s during WWII which the US condemned), and vivisection and deliberate maiming of their POWs in their custody. Their defense was they were ordered to do this. Will we continue to repeat the heinous atrocities for which we held the Nazis and the Kempeitai, the Japanese version of the Gestapo, culpable?

"And they warned that the action would erode foreign intelligence services' trust in the CIA's ability to protect national security secrets, current and former officials said."

This preceding statement is akin to the old "if we do this / that, the terrorists win." How would revealing what the world already know happened jeopardize "trust" or capacity to 'protect national security secrets'

Foreign intelligence know we cannot be trusted because we lied about torture. Their should be an independent body to review if some of those "secret" fall under the Freedom of Information Act.

Rank on Rank:

Thanks for your remark.....Everyone feel free to criticize the failures of the corporate media, which lied us into an illegal war, both in Vietnam, with the Gulf of Tonkin, and in Iraq...... there are more examples....but that should be enough to question both the corporate Government, and corporate media.

Here's hoping the the torturers eat their guns.

Obama said they are safe from prosecution.. so basically.. he pardoned them. Why would Obama do that now? Hmm.....

Why would Obama do that now? Hmm.....

With any luck, it's because the Justice Department has bigger fish to fry!

Equally sobering is that now since the practice of extraordinary rendition has been reapproved for use by the Obama administration, any US citizen traveling or studying or touring abroad may be kidnapped from one country, removed to another where they may be tortured because a third country may claim they are terrorists or that these detainees are withholding vital information making the application enhanced interrogation techniques aka torture methods absolutely necessary in their eyes

The government seems to be gearing for a program to release some of our prisioner to Bagram AB in Afghanistan. Extraordinary retention is as much a smear and a stain on America as Gitmo or even Abu ghraib. It

It's putting (or at least trying to) war prisoners out of the sight of the American public and out of the reach of any hope of due process and to keep them there, un-charged, unprosecuted, undefended, hopeless until they die in those hell holes

I supported Barack Obama from day one of his run for the White House. My wife and I both voted for and and are still proud of it, Still, we knew we wouldn't agree with him on everything. What we had really hoped is that the raw stupidity of refusing to prosecute the CIA tortures would not be it. This is without a doubt and with no previous example, the single biggest political and moral screw up of his entire political career. Bar none and with nothing even coming close and the worst we hope he ever does any mistake as close to how bad history will see him. While he had a chance to be seen as a truly great American hero and statesmen, I'm afraid history will forever know him as a giant who had a chance to stand for American justice, but instead chose to completely cave in the pressure brought by the very war criminals themselves.

Bush's legacy is indubitable. He'll always be know as the president who drag our nation, our laws and our morality through piles of shi*t by dragging us back in those halls of Nazi Germany and wood huts of Japanese prisoner camps Sadly it looks like Barack is willing to filthy his jacket by being seem as there enabler. The one let them get completely away. What he may not realize is that he is also throwing away hundreds of thousands of voters who are going to have a hard time (if we can) overcoming the nausea we feel every time we think of this horrible miscarriage of justice that is being allowed by Barack. Barack, you're still my president. That said, if you keep making total fu*ck ups like this, then you can expect severe punishment form the left wing base of the Democratic party, including, if it gets to the point, doing everything we can do to sabotage your (our) convention, renomination and reelection. You have a lot of moderate followers, that's true, but remember it's the base who decides who gets the next nomination and they are not automatic. Besides even if we can't prevent you from being renominated, we can screw up the campaign? and the general election to where even Sarah Palin might bet you.

Wake up Barack! You're sticking your fingers into the eyes of the folks that brought you to the party. Without those of on the left you'd be back to teaching law school and McCain would be in the White House screwing it all up. You needed us then and you owe us now. We demand some Bush administration hides nailed to the wall of the DNC employee lounge or at the very least, mugshots as they're being lead off to prison. Understand, this is not a please will you sir, it's a demand that you have no choice but to do for us because you owe us our pound of flesh and we'll slowly tear your career apart if we don't get it.

Like you, Mr Snyder, I voted for Barack Obama, and mean to be a staunch supporter. However, this seeming miscarriage or obstruction of justice by the President, I find nauseating disturbing. I find it impossible to justify, so that I feel I must remain silent on his behalf rather than speak up in his defense, when the right-wing reload and take aim once again and attack him with their cynical criticisms. It is owing to President Obama's own past statements and his credentials as a university professor of constitutional law that this putting detainees at Bagram or other black sites

"out of the reach of any hope of due process and to keep them there, un-charged, unprosecuted, undefended, hopeless until they die in those hell holes"

and refusing to prosecute CIA torturers is so heinously egregious.

Yes they the CIA knew they were committing crimes. They made their own laws up as they went on. But under Bush and his political appointees; who were more concerned about bible readings, and prayer groups. They broke the law with a zealot zest of self righteousness! This country was almost taken over with many agencies running their own government within the government. from illegal wiretapping to out right torture. This will take a long time to heal. These guys and the hacks that carried out these crimes should be in jail.

ALL of you are CLUELESS. If it were not illegal for me to do so, I would post hundreds of pics and videos of what these "poor wittle terrorists" have done to innocent men, women and children. I would show you what the main stream media refuses- that these ANIMALS are being treated a 1000 times better by us than ANY of their victims received from them. You talk about "due process" as if these a$$holes were picked up for jay walking and have simply been denied their day in court. HELLO!! Are you flip'n stupid?? MOST of them were detained on the field of battle by US forces- who took them prisoner rather than shoot them dead, as these animals would do to us. Wake the f#ck up and smell the coffee people!!

Listen CYP I have been there and seen that. Stop talking as though you knowand are the only person who has seen what terror is. My advise is for you to vent. Sorry CVP I seen in several wars what evil is, and what I saw and hear online from many Americans is bordering on stupity.

How old are you? I'm not trying to be a smart alec, I am just wondering how long you have been around, because I am wondering if you missed the 1990's. We were doing nothing like this in the 1990's and still how many of our interests around the world were attacked? Even in the 1980's, albeit much less. Do you have respect for China? How about the Middle Eastern countries and how they treat their women? How about Cuba and So. and Central American dictators? The fact is the countries you say don't respect us - the countries whose asses O is kissing - really have no room to talk. And as for Muslim extremists, they are never going to like the US for being friends with Israel (which I think will go by the wayside since I don't seem to remember Obama having met with them yet; he's too busy bowing to Saudi princes).

For you and the earlier posters who say Bush has drug us down, etc., please, please tell me - other than this isse - has he done to drag our laws down? Do you think the FBI or CIA is wiretapping you? I think they have better things to do unless you are a suspected terrorst. The govt. has always had the right to do it, but in the context of a suspected terrorist the process of getting approval the process was sped up. And don't you want it that way? I mean, if we have to wait days or weeks to get a tap on someone that might be planning something and we lose valuable time in getting info, I would like to know.

And please, I get so sick of hearing Bush's tactics compared to the Japanese in WWII or other horrible countries. Did we ever have a Tian. Sq like in China? Do we stone protesters (women protesting recently against new Afghan law that legalizes marital rape)? Do dissenters just disappear (Nazi Germany, Russia after the Revolution)? People stoned to death for adultery (Middle East)? Women beated for showing ankles or face in public or being out without a male family member or being precluded from attending school?

Look at all the things that have been said about Bush during his 8 years and now, and he never retaliated against anyone. His wife didn't go on national tv and cry left-wing conspiracy (remember Hillary saying Monica was lie and it was all a right-wing conspiracy; gee, I have never heard her get on TV and say she was wrong and sorry). Obama, on the other hand, knows there are going to be protests against his policies and just coincidentally DHS happens to issue a report that says that certain people (and again, coincidentally) happen to include those who hold different views than him. He had to try to marginalize these protests. There was no reason to do that report. They had no data or proof that anything like in the 1990's was happening. For example, we have seen an increase in meetings of the XYZ group over the past year or name group names or anthing. It basically said people might get upset and angry because they disagree and therefore, might become dangerous.

And during the campaign, someone asks him something that does not give him adulation and could make him look bad, and his minions use their power to look into the guy's background as though HE did something wrong. Did Bush ever do that? (Oh, and if I am not mistaken, the Clintons used IRS audits against enemies?)

And, Obama and the libs want the Fairness Doctrine because they don't like conservative talk radio. It's simple capitalism - supply and demand - radio stations play what makes them money because sponsors buy time. Air America tanked. Why? Because no one listened to it. Why should the govt. tell radio stations what to play or set up boards to oversee "local" content? Why should they dictate that a certain percentage have to be minority owned?

Gee, I don't remember any of those things happening under Bush. I have asked Bush-haters in the past this question and have never been given an answer. Tell me what freedom of YOURS did Bush take away?

Hey Blue, the CIA's techniques were also (and more importantly) approved by that dumb @!$%# PELOSI!! Yes! She sat as the chairman of the intelligence committee. They have documented that she was informed of this BEFORE they did it. She now claims that she didn't know that they actually did what they told her they were going to do!! So, don't be so quick to bash Bush- the democraps were into this up to their necks also!

BLD- rock on!!

As a Veteran I know that I would not torture, because I would not want me or mine to be tortured.

That's exactly right.

It often leads to crap info, because people will say anything under enough duress.

Jowey Styxx

You did not say a veteran of what war or country, but no matter, you have not listened or read about the torture done to American service men and women around the world for years.

You say “you” would not torture because you would not want to be tortured, I don’t know anyone who wants to be.

I have seen first hand and up close the barbaric butchery that has been done to American service men and women.

I have seen the same thing done by our people because of what the other said did, and it is hard to understand why it’s ok for them to do it, but don’t let an American do it.

We are “above” that kind of thing, we are “not allowed” to be human with feelings of anger or hate.

I have picked up babies killed because they were boys, I have picked up 6,7 and 8 year old girls raped and killed because their family’s helped Americans, I have seen young boys taken by force and made fight against the U S, I have seen women disfigured and mutilated after multiple rapes by there own countrymen.

I am sick to my stomach of all these so-called “Americans” who are so quick to condemn our people for what they do, sometimes you have to get down on their level and fight like they do to get through to them, that’s all they understand!!!!!

And by the way, “Bush” did not start this, he just didn’t stop it, and Obama making his “apologies” to the world for America stinks, how about letting them do some apologizing to US for the way our service men were and are being treated.

I have seen what the “other said” can do, and believe me when you pick up a buddy that was butchered AFTER he was dead, you lose it and you don’t give a damn what the rules say, you don’t care what “rights” the other said might have.

Jowey, 3.2 - Thank you. It's so easy for people sitting over here to play armchair quarterback. What's also amazing is that they also forget about the rise in these people through the 1990's at a time we were doing nothing. Yet, they were attacking U.S. interests long before Bush came into power, and 9/11 was planned during those years. If Bush made them hate us so, why did they grow in the 90's? And I honestly doubt that if we had done nothing - no Iraq, no interrogations - their numbers still would have swellled.

Buckeye voter - Didn't it also lead to non-crap info to stop terror plots?

No - torture did not foil any terror plots. If you have evidence that it did let's see it.

Buckeye voter - Didn't it also lead to non-crap info to stop terror plots?

Not to my knowledge, no. And, of course, if I did have that information I wouldn't post it here (in fact, I wouldn't be talking about it at all).

On a couple occasions I've had to simply not respond because the information I knew wasn't public domain. It's frustrating as hell, let me tell you. Heh. I remember one Cold War era college demonstration that I had to smirk at while I passed - those kids had no idea just how wrong they were.

Puffdragon:

The fact that Congress went along with the lies, democrats too, makes it just as illegal as the Republican thugs. Congress, the two party system, the Judicial branch, and the Executive, all three branches of government were complicit in the fascist, Nazi, policies, and now are being prosecuted, charged by the world, legalized Fascism or not.....Germany, too had all class institutions participating in its criminality, and so you should not feel safe that Congress voted for legalized aggression, completely illegal or legalized fascism, completely immoral, or legalized torture, completely criminal......ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND.....OR ARE YOU CLUELESS ABOUT THE NAZI PERIOD???

puffthedullard ...lawl go stick a turtle in a burrito yo mind is whack as heeeeell.

It's nice to see your astute observations have so much variety in the name calling though!

Eric, what do you know about the Bill of Rights and the Constitution? What amendment, what article, please? Also, treaties are between countries with identifiable armies. We are not talking fighting against a country who has entered into a treaty with us. We are talking about terrorists who have no country; they only stay in countries where they are granted asylum by govts who turn their heads.

Even in times of war, countries did not follow treaties. Do you know what Japan did to POW's and women? Do you know what Germany and Russia did? We never did anything close to that. And today, we still treated the terrorists at Gmito with more respect than given our soldiers. Korans, TVs, clean clothes, worship services, clean places to live and food versus a two-minute speech before a camera before your head is sliced off. They don't operate by treaties; frankly, why should we. I suppose you think we should get bin Laden to sit down and sign a treaty that says "Now we know you want to eradicate us and Israel and other Western countries off the face of the earth, but here are the rules by which we are going to fight."

Read the post from the guy who had been there and what he saw. Our country has NEVER done anything like that and for you to suggest what we did was anywhere close to that, then your ignorance is showing through. You are just an angry person who wants something to @!$%# about and this is it. Did you ever hear the fable about the emperor with no clothes? Well, you probably would have gone along with it and ogled the emperor's wonderful suit of clothes.

How can you be sure it was just one small insect? It would have to be an amount that would cause fear or discomfort to the detainee to have the desired effect.

Standing, it is really great how you can minimize the wrongs of government does. History is full of people who turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed by their government.

Or by the way, how many roaches, centipedes, worms spiders and leeches could you stand to be thrown in and shut up, for an unspecified period, in a very small area with?

Hint: Think 'Fear Factor'.

yukfu:

Sorry, both America and Israel have routinely used the NUREMBERG PRINCIPLE AND UNIVERSAL JURISDICTION, TO prosecute former Nazi war criminals and African dictators for their war crimes. So you can take back your Lithium and place it where it belongs...away from reactionary and unintelligent analysis like yours.

It is a pretty sad state of affairs, when JON STEWART AND COLBERT do a better job at news analysis than the corporat media and its right wing nutcase apologists. Take a look for yourself. The bull @!$%# is coming from the fascist crowd, and the corporate power that finances it...including the corporate media....FOX, CNN, NEWS....

Obama Saves Us From Habeas Corpus

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/41819

Tee, hee , he. If your short memory span can still function, remember that Bush told the Congress and American people after 9/11 that "things would happen" around the globe and that America would get even for what happened on that day. I love how a f%$kwad like you relies on TV personalities to make a point. Oh and by the way, I think Bush and Obama are both @!$%#s.

And as for your analysis of me. Go get an abortion, I could care less. It's not my business. Sounds like you are a troll and a knee jerk reactionary. In other words, don't tread on me @!$%#.

Yukfu:

It depends on what you mean by I think Bush and Obama are both "@!$%#s"....as I would agree with you, but then since you are attacking me, I assume that Obama, for you, is not sufficiently servile to the criminality of the fascist CIA and Bush was not sufficiently fascist enough for you either.....It was your business when you attacked only from a personal, emotional response, as a typical right wing ideologue, and so I am calling you on your reactionary views.

My views are based on social values, moral and international values, and so the question is how do you define "reactionary", when it is coming from your end. I will tread on any reactionary, fascist view........

Just firing up the conversation I suppose. No ill intent implied. Look, I plant a garden and make my own food. I was also a fairly high paid executive before all of this high jinx came to a head have taken a 40% haircut on salary over the past few months. Bottom line is that I grew up in a Blue Collar family and I expect better from all of my American colleagues. Come on, my family came from the Soviet expansion in the early 1900's. We know a bit about being f^%k by the system. And I still know how to take care of myself and my family. I just prefer to teach people how to fish rather than playing Jesus and passing out fish.

Eric - you are an example of what is wrong with our citizens today. You rely on the Colbert report for your news? And Jon Stewart? Please, that is hardly news. If you have to, listen or watch CNN and Fox and other outlets and read newspapers and put all the pieces together and arrive at a decision. Colbert is funny but he says something, people laugh, and the applause meter tells them to clap, and you and many others think it means he made a good point? You are in an angry mob mentality and someone could hand you a sign to go protest and you would without knowing what you are protesting. Sad, very sad.

I guess this explains why many posters on these topics can't make a cogent argument. They listen to soundbites from these shows and spit them back, without knowing or understanding what was being said or having done any research. Try typing something into Google and read the vast articles that come up, from both the left and right.

Why are you concerned with the "dignity" of terrorists? They're not concerned about you feeling warm and fuzzy.

Not Drinking- how right you are! The terrorist would rather be sawing the head off some of these bleeding hearts (with a fairly dull knife), while their victim is letting out a blood curdling scream and begging them to stop. THAT is the part these islamic extremists love the most, the screaming for mercy that will NOT be shown to them.

BLD

You forgot about the Muslims taking over the school system in America !

Im no Democrat but if memory serves me right Bill stopped the millennium attack and Bush let 911 happen on HIS watch.

BLd:

Supporting fascist foreign policies whether by BUSH OR OBAMA and its criminal fascist methods will only make us less safe, not more safe, as the NAZIS WERE SMASHED FOR THIS KIND OF IDIOTIC POLITICAL, REACTIONARY IDEOLOGY.

NOW YOU WANT TO MAKE IT "AMERICAN."

fulcrum - If I am not mistaken, it was a CANADIAN customs official who caught the guy who was in the LAX plot. As for the 9/11 issue, that was years in the making and those years were during Clinton's 8. Also, it was during Clinton's 8 that bin Laden declared war on us, I believe, and vowed to kill us. Furthermore, contrary to the whitewashed ABC special that they cleaned up to clear up Clinton's name, there was a chance to kill bin Laden and Clinton wouldn't give the order. I heard the guy interviewed who had him in his sites. He said they sat on the phone for minutes while CIA director tried to convince Bill to give the order. Maybe he was in the middle of a BJ and couldn't be bothered or maybe he was just a pussy. Furthermore, it was Jamie Gorelick's "wall" that she erected that prevented communication between the FBI and CIA, and if you do your research, you will find the memo from the FBI or CIA agent who wrote the problem it will cause and the fact that many will be killed.

You do not do something on the magnitude of 9/11 overnight. It took years of planning. You might say that the first WTC bombing was their first attempt and that they went back to the drawing board after that and were able to hone their skills and finesse their plan during Clinton.

And finally, tell me what was Bush supposed to do? No one ever has. They just say he should have done something. Didn't all he have was a memo that they wanted to kill us and were planning to use planes? What in that memo told us a date and the exact means? No one could have imagined what they did. We were all thinking bombs or hijackings, which is what we had seen in the past. Did you want us to stop all Muslim men? Couldn't do that; the lib left would have been appalled and the ACLU would have still been filing lawsuits for disrimination today. Hell, even after we identified the demographics of those who want to kill us, we STILL cannot profile and target young Muslim me. Did you want us to prevent bringing knives and boxcutters on board? People would have been pissed off and made fun of the govt. because what evidence did they have they would be a problem? Some people now are annoyed at restrictions and some searches (old people, babies) imposed AFTER we were attacked. Yet, these are the same people who, if someone smuggled something in a baby's diaper or on a old person would scream that the govt. did nothing; they should have checked everyone. See, in this country it seems that no one wants to be risk adversive; it's only AFTER something happens that they are willing to put up with restrictions or action and even then they @!$%# and moan.

Oh, and if when something happens determines responsibility - despite when it began - can we all expect libs to shut up and stop blaming Bush for the current economic problems that are getting worse during Obama's watch?

Eric - what criminal fascist methods do you mean? These are terrorists for God's sake. What are we supposed to do? Ask and ask and ask and get nowhere? Didn't some of these interrogations lead to information that foiled terrorist plots?

Now if the govt. is picking up people off the street and doing this because of their disagreement withObama, that would be different. But these are people who want to kill us and do not show the same respect toward us. Why aren't people protesting the way China and the Middle East treat their dissidents and in terms of the Middle East, their women? Where is the Admin's outrage over that? A young woman with dual citizenship just got 8 years for allegedly being a spy in Iran. She was a journalist! Can we guess how fair that trial was? Do you want to know how nice the prison will be where she is going? I am sure if she were Christian they would not be giving her a Bible or allowing her to have services on Sunday. Or if she were a Jew, no services on Saturday and in fact, she would probably be dead by now.

If you have really arrived at your thoughts about Bush through independent research and consideration and your own volition, please list for me things that Bush is doing that you feel constituted such horrible behavior, other than the torture.

Oh, and fulcrum - during Clinton's years bin Laden said he wanted to kill us and declared jihad. Wh didn't Clinton do something?

WAG THE DOG, WAG THE DOG, NO WAR FOR MONICA, SCREAMS the Republican controlled congress.

Bin Laden Determined to strike was the title of an Aug. 2001 Pres. Daily Briefing as Bush cleared brush in Crawford Tx. and stayed on vacation longer than any other Pres. in history!

But Im thru with this argument for as I see it, the two party system is flawed and needs to be replaced with something else like Run-off voting or ????

the 2-party paradigm explained here

How The Elite Control Politics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTahZE4q90U

Fulcrum, that is the memo I was talking about and that is what Clinton had known for years. We all saw the video or heard the story on TV where bin Laden declared jihad. But you still DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION - what was Bush supposed to do? If the memo said planes were being flown into bldgs on 9/11, then I could see your anger. But all it said is they are going to attack. It's kind of like now. We know they are going to attack but don't know where. It's like finding a needle in a haystack.

I doubt you have any independent thought as evidenced by your opening statement. You can't give me cogent thought backed by facts so you spew out some rhetoric you have heard somewhere that to you sounds good. If you want to win a debate, give me hard facts what Bush could do. You talk about him being on vacation when he should have been doing something about terrorists. Well, Clinton had major issues to work on, too - incl. terrorism - and he was getting BJ's in the White House. Anything wrong with that?

Oh, and talking about Presidents on vacation. Hmmm, I seem to remember that less han a month into O's presidency - at a time when he was telling us the country was going to fall apart if this bill didn't get passed and it just HAD to get done before the weekend, and they should have been working on the economy, he was flying back to Chicago to take his fat-ass wife to dinner and play basketball and was planning a trip to Colorado on his never-ending campaign/presidency. Why didn't HE stay in Washington and work on the bill and financial issues? He didn't need to go to California or Colorado or wherever it was to sell people on it? What's wrong with a nice address from the White House?

BLD said

his fat-ass wife to dinner and play basketball+

and he was getting BJ's in the White House.+

cogent thought backed by facts so you spew out some rhetoric=

HYPOCRISY

Sorry, fulcrum but these are facts. His wife is a fat-ass and he did take her back to Chicago and was playing baseball that weekend after they pushed through that legislature. Remember? They had to get it done even though he didn't plan on signing it until the next week at some pre-planned medial event?

Clinton did get them in the White House when he should have been attending to business. Sorry if I think that's wrong. Screw around on your wife on your own time.

And you have not provided any facts in support of your argument; you repeat back opinions that Colbert or others give you.

mbfromhb-

Thank you for demonstrating just how stoopid and ignorant the left is! Saddam had NOTHING to do with 911 and the right KNOWS THIS. You are most likely "one of those" that thinks you know everything, complain constantly, whine incessently about things you are (clearly) ignorant about, and just need a good old fashion @$$ whip'n.

13 - You are spitting back phrases and terms you have used the left use and probably don't know about any of it. Show me proof where Bush and Cheyney profited and made a ton of money, as you suggest? The left throws this around all the time but I don't think I have ever seen one shred of proof that they profited one single dollar.

But let's extend your theory - that they did something due to economic gain. Let's then look at carbon credits. Do some research into Gore and Obama and the Joyce Foundation and Chicago Carbon Exchange. That will give you some enlightenment about why Al Gore is so hyped on carbon credits - MONEY.

Then, do some research into Fannie and Freddie and look at who profited there. The same politicians who were against controls and pushing for practices that made them even more risky, which led to this economic meltdown. The same politicians who were running them into the ground while getting bonuses multiple times their salaries, all at a time they really were not succeeding; kind of like AIG. And guess who they were: DEMS! Find the 1999 NYT article (pre-dated Bush, so maybe you will trust it) talking about Fannie and its connections to the Clinton cronies and Dems and how there was risk in it. If people would take an honest look at the data, the articles pre-dating Bush or during the Bush years, and the actual video of libs like Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, and others extolling the virtues of Fannie right before Raines had to resign and it was discovered they had engaged in funny accounting practices to boost numbers that increased bonuses - well, you would see that Dems and libs have their fingerprints all over that. And, frankly, the financial mess THEY created, I feel, is worse than any interrogation techniques used against terrorists.

Oh, and one final throught before you tell me that our position in the world has been besmirched due to use of terror - explain to me why the world still seems to love Cuba, China, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakhistan, etc. I do not see one single country such as Iran screaming about how horrible China is because of their human rights abuses. (Tian. Sq. sound familiar?) And Obama wants to cozy up to Cuba. Hell, those countries treat people much worse. It's just an excuse. We are a great country and I am not ashamed to say it. Why else are people coming in droves? Because of our freedoms.

As for Saddam, 13.1, did you know about the Iraq Liberation Act signed by Clinton? Did you ever see the video of tons of libs (includ. Nancy P. and Hillary) talking about how Saddam cannot be allowed to get WMD and how bad he was? Did you ever hear any stories of what he had done to his people? Raping a man's daughter in front of the man because the man did something Saddam or his evil sons didn't like, which ended in, I believe, the daughter committing suicide.

Plus, think about this. We know Saddam hated us. Who's to say that for the right money, he would not have gotten in bed with al Qaeda for the right money and opened up his country as a safe haven for terrorists as the pressure in Afghanistan built up? Oh, I know - wait till that happens then deal with it. Well, it probably would have been too late, you know? Look at Pakhistan and what has happened there. I don't think they had any intention of being partners with us in the war against terror. They let those animals in and now there doesn't seem to be a way to stop them. Kind of like a cockroach infestation. Once one or two get in, it's hard to stop the rest. And, I can guarantee you that if we had not done something and terrorists were traced to Saddam, everyone would have argued Bush made a mistake. Nancy P. would have been saying that she warned everyone, that Clinton signed the bill, blah, blah, blah.

I think this country's motto should be "Damned if you do and damned if you don't."

Whoah tiger.....

As for Saddam, 13.1, did you know about the Iraq Liberation Act signed by Clinton? Did you ever see the video of tons of libs (includ. Nancy P. and Hillary) talking about how Saddam cannot be allowed to get WMD and how bad he was? Did you ever hear any stories of what he had done to his people? Raping a man's daughter in front of the man because the man did something Saddam or his evil sons didn't like, which ended in, I believe, the daughter committing suicide.

After being to Iraq 5 times now, you don't need to tell me about Saddam. We know he did not have anything to do with 9/11, that is what I was telling the ignorant poster in 13.

13.3 Thanks for your service. I assume you mean being in the service; that's more guts than I would have. But I get so tired of people bashing this country and what we do. Plus, it is over; it happened. Let's move on. Everyone is letting their hatred of Bush and this war cloud their judgment on what Obama is doing and where this country is going. They are letting the past block what they should be seeing is happening in the futue. I know Obama's not Hitler but the principle is the same. They allowed their anger over how WWI ended and the Treaty of Versailles that they stayed stuck in the past instead of trying to fix their economic problems, and that led to the rise of someone who gave them a scapegoat to blame and hate - the Jews. And staying stuck in the past, I believe, made them blind to what was really happening in their country as Hitler rose and consolidated power into himself. It may not happen to that degree here - who know's, maybe it could - but this Admin. is taking this country somewhere that even some Dems and Bush-haters may eventually say they don't like either. When they are controlling everything from your cars to how much power you use, or making you pay heavily through taxes or increased prices if you don't go along with their plans and views, well then everyone else will start screaming, too.

Did you know that the c#nt, Pelosi, was FULLY BRIEFED by the CIA (years ago) while sitting on the Intelligence Committee and didn't say squat to them? Now, today, that dumb bit#h gets on national TV and basically calls the CIA liars and claims she was not told. Then, in a typical Dimocrap move, when confronted with the evidence that they DID, in fact, tell her- she says "they told me what they were going to do, but I didn't know that they actually did it". WTF?? This dumb bit#h needs to be relieved of office for one of two reasons.....either she flat out LIED about it or she is too incompetent to be a sitting member of Congress! DUH!! They told you they were going to do it.....and you had NO OBJECTIONS. Now that they are being looked at for it, you claim "well, they never told me that they actually did it"......WTF did you (stupid bit#h Pelosi) think they were going to do after they briefed you (stupid bit#h!). Did she believe that they were briefing that stuff cuz it sounded cool??? Did she believe that they briefed one thing, but were going to make these TERRORISTS knit sweaters until they started talking????

You know, Bush wasn't perfect- got it. But at least Bush (and company) had enough sack to stand up and say "yes, I f#cking told them to do that" and didn't try to hide behind "they said they were going to do that, but they never told me that they actually did". America, wake the f#ck up, the democraps are ALL like this. They have no intestinal fortitude and flip flop worse than a f#cking fish out of water! At least support a party (doesn't have to be Republican, but I would be thankful if you do!) that has some f#cking sack!!

CYP

GOP or Dem's? Conservatives or liberals? It doesn't matter. We are all controlled by "The Zionist Conspiracy." So why not surrender, let them have the power? The truth is, through their duel national lobbyists and surrogates in Washington, they already rule America, Robbed the treasury, swindled investors, tricked us into fighting there wars, Surrender is a mere formality. good night America, when 2% have 97% of the wealth in the world something evil is in power.

Im sorry what is your argument again?

Edward Zeauskas

Im sorry what is your argument again?

(lol) I wonder sometimes myself. Cheap shot at Oprah I know.

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thisNeuroscience and social deprivation | I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told

How poverty passes from generation to generation is now becoming clearer. The answer lies in the effect of stress on two particular parts of the brain