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Can Marchionne’s magic work at Chrysler?

Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT
business, technology, barack-obama, only-on-msnbc-com, chrysler, fiat, automakers, the-drivers-seat, marchionne, sergio-marchionne, fiats
msnbc.com News — By Roland Jones

FILES - Picture taken on March 27, 2009 in Turin shows Fiat Group Chief Executive Officer Sergio Marchionne speaking during a press conference at the annual general meeting of the Fiat Group. Fiat and General Motors were partners a few years back, but on April 24, 2009, a mooted Fiat takeover of GM's troubled German unit Opel left analysts sceptical. An Italian union source told AFP that Fiat boss Sergio Marchionne had denied preparing an offer for Opel while the Italian group pursues its offer for part of the distressed US car maker Chrysler. AFP PHOTO DAMIEN MEYER (Photo credit should read DAMIEN MEYER/AFP/Getty Images)

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— Fiat chief executive Sergio Marchionne is not one to shirk a challenge. He made his name as a corporate whiz in June 2004 when he stepped in to take the wheel of Italy’s then-dying automaker, driving through a swift and vigorous turnaround that returned it to profitability by 2006.

Now Marchionne is about to attempt to do the same for Chrysler, the smallest of Detroit’s “Big Three” and North America’s most sickly automaker.

On Thursday, President Barack Obama said Chrysler will file for Chapter 11 protection in New York after last-ditch rescue talks between its creditors and the U.S. government collapsed. The move smoothes the way for an alliance with Italy’s Fiat, as it allows the automaker to restructure its remaining debt and reduce its bloated auto dealer network.

Fiat has been negotiating with Chrysler for weeks and a deal is expected by a U.S.-imposed midnight deadline. But while some say uniting Chrysler and Fiat is the perfect pairing of two complementary automakers, others argue that it’s nothing short of a reckless gamble on the part of Marchionne.

“No matter how capable a businessman you are, taking on another car company that’s been losing money for years and at the same time taking a bigger stake in an industry that’s in freefall and has an uncertain future is a huge gamble,” said Karl Brauer, editor in chief of automotive Web site Edmunds.com.

“I think it’s impressive that Fiat is in this position now just a few years after they were in the same position as Chrysler just a few years ago. And it’s a testament to Sergio Marchionne that he could take a company like Fiat and turn it into a company that’s vying to do deals with other large companies,” he added. “But fixing Fiat is one thing; doing a deal like Chrysler-Fiat is another. Putting all the pieces together is much more difficult.”

According to the White House, in a Fiat-Chrysler alliance Fiat will offer Chrysler its technological “know how” in exchange for a 20 percent equity stake in the reorganized Chrysler. Fiat will have the right to select three directors of Chrysler once reorganized. Current Chrysler Chief Executive Robert Nardelli will step down after the company emerges from bankruptcy.

Fiat’s share of Chrysler could rise to 35 percent if certain targets are met, the automaker said Thursday. It could get another 16 percent by 2016 if Chrysler’s U.S. government loans are fully repaid. Fiat would also have access to the North American car market though Chrysler’s dealer network and factories.

Brauer said he’s pessimistic about the feasibility of a Chrysler-Fiat partnership. There are risks, he said — the auto market may not recover quickly, and there are obvious cultural and logistical challenges in meshing a North American and an Italian company, he added. The costs of a union will be considerable, Brauer said.

“To go from building Dodge Durangos to Fiat 500s takes time, and time is something Chrysler doesn’t have,” he said. “If this takes a few years to go through and the market keeps declining, you’re in a bad place.”

Fiat’s Marchionne has shown he knows how to overhaul the corporate culture of dying companies. He cut his teeth reviving Fiat earlier this decade, turning it into one of the fastest growing companies in the automotive industry. And he revamped the company culture and sped up the introduction of stylish new cars, like the reworked Fiat 500 and the redesigned Punto.

It’s the sort of leadership Chrysler could use. Overly focused on large SUVs and trucks, the automaker wants Fiat’s small-car engine technology to comply with rising federal requirements for fuel-efficiency and consumers’ desire to buy smaller vehicles whenever the price of gasoline spikes.

While a Fiat-Chrysler partnership will bring obvious benefits to Chrysler, it brings Fiat another debut on the North American stage. The automaker withdrew from the U.S. market in 1984, finding itself crowded out by then-upstart Japanese automakers. Now Fiat will benefit from selling its vehicles through Chrysler’s extensive dealership network, which is likely to be trimmed in a Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization.

As of the end of the first quarter this year, Chrysler had about 3,200 dealers and 11 percent U.S. market share, according to Edmunds.com. By comparison, Toyota had just under 1,500 dealers and 16 percent market share. Fewer dealers allow an automaker to better control its costs and inventories.

“Fiat has wanted to get back into the U.S. market for years, so this is a very good opportunity for them because it produces a quick entry,” said Pierluigi Bellini, a Milan-based automotive analyst with IHS Global Insight.

Overseas automakers like Hyundai have spent over a decade building their presence and reputation in the U.S. market. A partnership with Chrysler would help Fiat avoid that, he said. Fiat would also have a production base to make vehicles for the Latin American market, he added.

A deal with Chrysler would also bring Marchionne control of an iconic American automaker that built the popular minivan and owns the famous Jeep brand.

Chrysler has failed to return to full strength since it broke off its partnership with Germany’s Daimler-Benz AG two years ago, even while under the control of the Cerberus Capital Partners private-equity group. An earlier partnership with General Motors was dissolved in a $2 billion payment to Fiat, and some observers wonder if a tie-up with yet another European automaker will work.

“The Chrysler-Daimler deal didn’t work and it laid out a lot of problems in meshing European and U.S. business customs,” said Edmunds.com’s Brauer. “On the other hand, if Marchionne is looking for the best possible time to get Chrysler, Fiat may have found it. But then again he has to manage it and not let it drag down the progress he made with Fiat.”

Observers argue that Marchionne is just the man to manage a trans-Atlantic business partnership. Italian-born, he was raised in Canada where he studied law and business. His background closely resembles that of Carlos Ghosn, the CEO of Renault-Nissan who is a Brazilian, Lebanese and French citizen and is credited with turning around Nissan’s fortunes.

“People like this, I think they get different perspective, they see possible connections others don’t see. They have a different sense and they know how to bring multicultural groups together,” Brauer said.

Marchionne also focused Fiat in a way that Chrysler must now be focused, said Josh Whitford, a professor of sociology at Columbia University who has studied the Italian automotive industry.

“Fiat started to work with suppliers to figure out how to make new, more appealing models, which is what I think they will do with Chrysler,” he said. “Fiat’s research and development investment fell in the 1990s and they just didn’t invest in new cars. You could say the same thing about the American automakers. In the last few years they’ve focused on the financial side, and that covered up a lot of sins on the auto side.”

“This is why I am cautiously optimistic about the Fiat-Chrysler alliance,” he said. “Fiat’s near-death experience pushed them to think more seriously about the industrial side; it pushed them to make new cars that people want.”

However, it remains to be seen whether Americans will buy small Italian cars. With stricter federal fuel economy standards on the horizon, the market for cars is likely to grow bigger than trucks and SUVs, said Whitford. And Fiat’s cars gained a reputation for poor reliability the last time they were sold in the United States.

“I hope Chrysler learned a lesson from betting on one type of car — they were caught with their pants down when gas prices went up, and gas prices are going to be volatile for a while,” he said.

Still, the deal remains a lottery for Fiat, said IHS Global Insight’s Bellini.

“As Marchionne puts it, this is an industry that is going to consolidate, so you can either be the buyer or the acquirer,” he said. “What Marchionne is trying to do is be on the buy side. I think this a very risky thing, and it all depends on the economic conditions ahead.”

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Hang The Bum NowDeleted
ken from illinoisDeleted
Paul from SC

why would a car company like Chrysler who builds boat anchors that do not work, team up with a company like Fiat that builds small boat anchors? Hope it works, but if it does everyone will be surprised.

    Reply#3 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:56 PM EDT
    Frederick-317280

    Perhaps I'm missing something but it looks like Chrysler can't run their own show and now want to add Fiat to their problems. Hummm I don't know anyone who owns a Fiat, do you?

      Reply#4 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
      GCV

      Well, Ferrari is owned by Fiat. So that isn't half bad now, is it?

      • 3 votes
      #4.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 PM EDT
      Roger-356271

      GCV,

      That made me laugh. You took the wind out of the doom and gloom platoon. I would say a Ferrari could compete on any level.

      • 1 vote
      #4.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:35 PM EDT
      robby-778896

      GCV,

      And let us not forget Maserati, and Alfa Romeo

        #4.3 - Fri May 1, 2009 3:02 AM EDT
        Vinews

        That's right, Fiat hasn't sold cars in USA for decades, then it is normal. In Europe things are different: in Germany Fiat Panda is the number 1 in his category (small car); I said Germany, not Belarus.

          #4.4 - Sat May 2, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
          Reply
          Archyopteryx_b

          Hum, Fiat, what does that mean...

          Fiat : an authoritative or arbitrary order : decree <government by fiat>

          Seems they took it too literally.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#5 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
          LouNYC

          I don't see many Americans buying the types of cars that Fiat makes. I've lived in Europe, and even there Fiats are looked at as cheaply made, poor quality cars.

          Even Asian automakers (Hyunday, Kia, etc.) had to adapt their line up to the American tastes before they became successful. I don't see Fiat doing the same.

            Reply#6 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
            GCV

            The point is that Fiat has been turned around dramatically since 2004 and the CEO of Fiat might be able to do for Chrysler what he did for Fiat. Basing an opinion on dated facts about Fiat long ago is irrelevent.

            • 1 vote
            #6.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:34 PM EDT
            docroc

            GCV is right -- and certainly one could do better than Bob Nardelli, who ruined Home Depot with his predictable American approach to management: pad the bottom line by reducing staffing levels at all stores until the quality suffers. Then reduce it some more.

            • 1 vote
            #6.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:02 PM EDT
            Stephen-256262

            After Mercedes became part of Chrysler, the quality got better at Chrysler, but they could not get rid of the high paid CEO's, and the union demands to pay unskilled assembly workers up to $68.00 per hour. In Germany and the rest of Europe the CEO's make a small fraction of what they make here, and only get a bonus when the perform good.

            I don't think Fiat can do any better then Mercedes Benz.

              #6.3 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:08 PM EDT
              Reply
              Gary-302710

              Maybe they can save Chrysler from itself. Most of he US automakers have turned into a rolling train wreck from blind, arrogant and just bad management to union contracts that would sink a ship. The US automakers bet the farm on SUV's and for a while they won but eventually they lost big time. Only a fool would believe that cheap gas prices were here to stay. Thats why the big push from Japan has always been for fleet fuel efficiency. In the end a fuel efficient line up will win. Of course, it didn't help that the drag of the union forced the US automakers to commit to high margin SUV's. Another lesson learned, it's hard to pay union dues from the unemployment line.

              For an added slap in the face, to all the unemployed parts manufacturers, remember Obama saying how we need to renegotiate NAFTA during the campaign, well, I believe he just said that we will not be touching NAFTA. He said this while he was in Mexico. Sounds like an open invitation to send more work south of the border.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#7 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:04 PM EDT
              robby-778896

              Gary-302710,

              Go back through the sales records and find the month that GM or Ford sold more cars than trucks, the F-series has been the #1 every month for like 15 years, only recently did camry beat it, but only for a couple of months.

              NAFTA is not where jobs went, even Mexico is too expensive these days, asia makes Mexicans look overpaid. Besides Now that both the US and Canadian Government have seats on the Chrysler board, and both have money in the company, you can bet that production in Mexico will not be rising, and that the deal to have Chery start building Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep products in China for the North American Market will not be happening.

                #7.1 - Fri May 1, 2009 3:12 AM EDT
                Reply
                Honest Spud

                You current share of the national debt under obama is $36,589.00 and your share is increasing at $12.4 per day. So you think that your $15 to $17 increase per pay check is an increase of your wealth? obama is destroying the financial health of this country. The Chrysler/Fiat (aka obama-mobile) will fail and add more debt (obama adding 8 billion to the bail out) for you to pay. Few US citizens will buy a UAW/obama owned and assembled auto.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#8 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
                docroc

                HonestSpud - You are not being honest about American wealth: it has declined since Regan was president. Middle class wealth is proportional to upper class tax rates. Lower taxes on the rich and you lower the standard of living on the middle class. That's where our wealth has REALLY gone. Obama didn't take it -- it was taken by 30 years of Reganomics, practiced by both parties (but, of course, by mostly Republican congresses).

                  #8.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:06 PM EDT
                  oi812

                  docroc-according to the latest facts from the IRS, which is 2006, the top 10% get 47% of income and pay 71% of all income tax. People earning between $65,000 to $150,000 make up 20% of all earners and they pay 46% of all income tax. That 20 % sounds like middle class to me, Those earning above $150,000 pay 40% of all income tax

                    #8.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:33 PM EDT
                    Stacey and tired of the lies

                    o1812-

                    Take another look at the data. First it's adjusted gross income. Second, we live in a rich country but to describe the middle class as having adjusted gross income between $65K and $150K is inaccurate. Third it is not 20% of the population it is 20% of the country's total AGI.

                    Doc Roc is correct. The progressive tax system supports the living standard of not just the poor but a large segment of the middle class. Those with adjusted gross incomes of $31-65K represent around 41% of AGI but pay less than 27% of total income taxes with an average tax rate of less than 10%. Families making less than $75K a year with two kids in public school are not paying anywhere near the full cost of all the government services (police, fire, clean air and water, national guard, military, education, etc) they use.

                    • 1 vote
                    #8.3 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:02 PM EDT
                    nymanDeleted
                    Undescribable

                    Fried Spuds

                      #8.5 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:24 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      tstucker

                      Fiat used to stand for "Fix It Again Tony". I can't recall seeing a Fiat in this country in the last half century and a look a at their web site shows little pocket rockets most Americans would consider for putting in the trunk in case of an emergency with their real car.

                      Chrysler has been a loser for decades. The quality of their running gear has always been good, but their bodies have been crapola. They have not been a big seller since the '60's and except for a few days after Iococa took it over and got a federal bailout, has not been profitable since. They need to cut a deal with Fiat for the financing and sell mini vans and Jeep and drop the rest of their lines.

                        Reply#9 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:25 PM EDT
                        Robin Steele

                        They have a powerful engine in the HEMI but the quality of their drive trains is crap. No one I know who has ever had a Chrysler product has ever NOT reported transmission problems. Now, since king barak has decreed that the taxpayer is on the hook for the warranties, and since the drive train warranty is for the live of the product, we will be shelling out around 4000 bucks for every covered vehicle on the road sold in the last 2 years.

                        Chrysler, a private company should recieve no help from us. It is a shame that this administration is being run with all the dexterity of a soccer mom trying to organize a charity picnic.

                        I think that Fiat is in for a big surprise when they try to turn this maker into a well oiled machine. And I would assert that their(Chrysler's) body styles are actually their strongest asset, but with all of their long time engineering issues, that is a moot point.

                          #9.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:51 PM EDT
                          Robin Steele

                          They have a powerful engine in the HEMI but the quality of their drive trains is crap. No one I know who has ever had a Chrysler product has ever NOT reported transmission problems. Now, since king barak has decreed that the taxpayer is on the hook for the warranties, and since the drive train warranty is for the live of the product, we will be shelling out around 4000 bucks for every covered vehicle on the road sold in the last 2 years.

                          Chrysler, a private company should recieve no help from us. It is a shame that this administration is being run with all the dexterity of a soccer mom trying to organize a charity picnic.

                          I think that Fiat is in for a big surprise when they try to turn this maker into a well oiled machine. And I would assert that their(Chrysler's) body styles are actually their strongest asset, but with all of their long time engineering issues, that is a moot point.

                            #9.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:54 PM EDT
                            nymanDeleted
                            robby-778896

                            tstucker,

                            And Ford stands for "Fixed or repaired daily" and Mopar stand for "Mostly old parts arranged randomly"

                              #9.4 - Fri May 1, 2009 3:21 AM EDT
                              robby-778896

                              Robin Steele,

                              Tax payers do not pay all warranty repairs for Chrysler, first off the company is still in business, and second it is an insurance just like the FDIC, and I believe only cover cars purchased after deal was announced.

                                #9.5 - Fri May 1, 2009 3:24 AM EDT
                                Reply
                                clarke ong

                                Ford will again dominate the U.S. market. They have something up their sleeve, I just feel it.

                                  Reply#10 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:29 PM EDT
                                  Tim Pheil

                                  Ford doesn't have anything up its sleeve. It has top sellers in the Uk & Europe like the Modeo, Scorpio, Ka, and Fusion that it going to start importing. Many capable of 50 mpg. But surprise, surprise, share the same drive train with Fiat. Same factory.

                                  I'm waiting for the 1.3 turbo deisels. Espeailly if Chrysler/Fiat are going to make a US version of the Panda

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #10.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:45 PM EDT
                                  GCV

                                  Your facts are all a mess. The Mondeo[sic] is a nice car, but isn't coming to the US till the next generation at least - the Contour was essentially the first generation Mondeo. The Scorpio hasn't been made in years - and it's last years as the world's ugliest car were an absolute disaster. The Ka is now a rebodied Fiat 500 that Fiat makes for Ford. And the Fusion is a US vehicle not sold in Europe or the UK.

                                    #10.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:31 PM EDT
                                    Tim Pheil

                                    According to Popular Mechanics they are all coming here in 2010. Fusion has been Euro restyled and will be built in europe, The scorpio has been restyled and will share the same drive train as the Ka.

                                      #10.3 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:35 PM EDT
                                      robby-778896

                                      Ford has a plant closed to retool for a Euroimport but not Fusion, they sell them here already isn't it the Focus, that gets high MPG over there?

                                      Anyway whatevr car it is, I did read somewhere in the last day or two that a plant here is being retooled to build them.

                                        #10.4 - Fri May 1, 2009 3:32 AM EDT
                                        Vinews

                                        Fiat Panda nowadays is the number one in Germany in terms of sells in his segment (small cars). The engine is absolutely amazing, you know, Fiat has best Diesel small engines (see JTD, MultiJet, MultiAir).

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #10.5 - Fri May 1, 2009 6:49 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        Jowand

                                        Depends if he can get rid of the UAW. The auto manufacturers in the USA that don't have the UAW are profitable and pay the same pay rates.

                                          Reply#11 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:17 PM EDT
                                          GCV

                                          Right now I don't think anyone is profitable.

                                            #11.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:27 PM EDT
                                            MR9929

                                            GCV, You are correct! none of the US automakers [foriegn or domestic] are making a profit. Toyota and honda back in march ask there govt. for $5 million in a loan for vehicle financing. They both have recieved $250 million end of 2008 for R&D.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #11.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:54 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            GCV

                                            Fixing Chrysler should be easy. Fire whoever thinks that cars should look like boats flipped upside down (its an ugly style), stop putting cheaply outfitted cars in rental fleets (it leaves a bad impression when you rent one), and cleanup the dealerships (I don't want to buy a car from a slimey ex-jock in a cheap out-of-date sport's jacket)

                                              Reply#12 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:27 PM EDT
                                              LoudMouth

                                              Let Chrysler die already. Their cars are ugly anyways. Besides if they still go union, they'll be screwed anyways. Don't waste your money Fiat man!

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#13 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:58 PM EDT
                                              Joe-469996

                                              Chryslers are Pieces of junk. They should have went under in the 70's but Iacoca saved their asses. Now Fiat wants to take a shot??????? Can't wait to see the 2010 or 2011 Fiaysler P.O.S. Yeah it has a hemi and it's small enough to park near the Vatican.

                                                Reply#14 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:09 PM EDT
                                                Gordon-737902

                                                It seems a bit sad that none of the Fiat bashers has a suggestion on how to fix the problem other than bashing Obama! Don't forget that the auto makers problems have been building through the last decade when Obama wasn't even president! The Texas mentality of bigger is better has been a drain on the US economy for years and won't be fixed over night! If you don't have a good solution get out of the way and let INTELLIGENT and EDUCATED people take a shot at the issue! Don't let your redneck politics, which haven't helped, or your hatred of a BLACK president, get in the way of America learning from another country that we don't have all the answers to all the problems!! AND good riddence to Bob Nardelli!!! Let's hope Fiat sends him on his way with no money, unlike Home Depot that gave him $210 million+ to go away!!! (Now THAT's a bailout!!!)

                                                  Reply#15 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:17 PM EDT
                                                  Jowand

                                                  It's about what Obama is doing now.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #15.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:25 PM EDT
                                                  cjjrwe

                                                  Always, without fail the race remarks. Please, you do not know anyone here, you do not know what color, race, religion or political persuasion I am, nor do you know my education level. You talk about intelligent and educated people, but your comments show a lack of intelligence and education.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #15.2 - Sun May 3, 2009 2:37 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  happy-315907

                                                  fiat's always brake down.

                                                    Reply#16 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:19 PM EDT
                                                    robby-778896

                                                    happy,
                                                    Youhave most likly never seen a Fiat, and don't the difference between Fiat and Fiat Group, clue Sergio is the CEO of Fiat Group, not Fiat....

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #16.1 - Fri May 1, 2009 4:23 AM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    anne-619140

                                                    Well at least we know what the unions got from their ceaseless support of the democrats and Obama in particular. A company they nearly ate alive through union greed they now own. And the bondholders get next to nothing. Hey! That really makes me want to buy their cars.....not to mention own stock in any american owned company. Who will they go after next?

                                                      Reply#17 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:23 PM EDT
                                                      nymanDeleted
                                                      cjjrwe

                                                      Actually she has some legitimate points.

                                                        #17.2 - Sun May 3, 2009 2:39 PM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        Jowand

                                                        FIAT is just a distraction some cover for the real thing, the UAW owning Chrysler courtesy of Obama; it's a socialist coup.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        Reply#18 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:24 PM EDT
                                                        docroc

                                                        FIAT is just a distraction some cover for the real thing, the UAW owning Chrysler courtesy of Obama; it's a socialist coup. - Jowand

                                                        Jowand - I sure wish that were true; they couldn't possibly be worse than the capitalistic managers who have had more than their share of chances to ruin (I mean run) the company.

                                                        You DO understand that this for-profit, American-run, capitalistic company has had problems for decades? Under several different CEOs? Under ownership by Daimler, one of the highest-end companies in the world? Under private-equity management?

                                                        Do you REALLY think socialism would be worse?! How and why?

                                                          #18.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:30 PM EDT
                                                          CBWY777Deleted
                                                          Jowand

                                                          doc roc

                                                          Name me one succsssful Socialist state that has ever existed using the Socialist economic model.

                                                            #18.3 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:11 PM EDT
                                                            docroc

                                                            CBWY777,

                                                            In a 4/9/09 Eurotrib article, historical data are shown in regards to wealth and taxation and regulation trends in the US. One graph (from that bastion of liberalism, the IRS) shows the top marginal tax rates since the income tax started in 1913. It was flat at 70% from around 1965 to 1981. It then dropped dramatically through 1989 to around 25%.

                                                            If the richest people started paying a dramatically smaller share of their income to taxes and the government didn't get any smaller, then only 2 outcomes are possible: increasing deficits or much greater contribution to income tax by middle and working class people.

                                                            Reagan's lies about this included that, by reducing taxes, the country would become so much richer that everyone would do better, the so-called "trickle-down" theory.

                                                            Perhaps you'll recall that, when Clinton took office, he inherited a deficit and, when he left, there was a surplus? Can you remember when that deficit was run up?

                                                              #18.4 - Fri May 1, 2009 6:56 AM EDT
                                                              cjjrwe

                                                              When the tax rates were high, e.g. 70%, etc., there were so many tax shelters and write offs that it became an industry on it's own, so in reality the rates were not that high, this is what Reagan did away with. As for the surplus, you do not understand governmental budgeting; it was not a money in the bank surplus, as in we took in more tax revenue then we spent, it was rather like a credit card, we budgeted X amount of Trillions, but did not spend them all, so we suddenly had a surplus. Clinton did move towards a balanced budget, which is the right thing to do, however Bush nor Obama have nor likely will.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #18.5 - Sun May 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              docroc

                                                              Fixing Chrysler should be easy. Fire whoever thinks that cars should look like boats flipped upside down (its an ugly style), stop putting cheaply outfitted cars in rental fleets (it leaves a bad impression when you rent one), and cleanup the dealerships (I don't want to buy a car from a slimey ex-jock in a cheap out-of-date sport's jacket) - GCV

                                                              LOL!!!

                                                                Reply#19 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:25 PM EDT
                                                                The Light of Creation

                                                                Fiat is dead wood, Chrysler is dead wood, no more buggy whips, lets just move on!

                                                                  Reply#20 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:27 PM EDT
                                                                  robby-778896

                                                                  I am Guessing you don't even know who Fiat is, or what they make!

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #20.1 - Fri May 1, 2009 4:26 AM EDT
                                                                  docroc

                                                                  Name me one succsssful Socialist state that has ever existed using the Socialist economic model. - Jowand

                                                                  Well, first of all, if you can break with the narrow, American attitude that every place should develop just like the USA, you can see that some countries have had other paths and other historical realities to deal with. So, for example, the ignorant idea that Russia was a great place until the communists ruined it, doesn't stand up to inspection. Russia has historically always been an authoritarian state. So the question is not whether the communists were small-minded thugs, the question is whether the average Russian was better off under the communists than under the Czar. And are they better off under Putin, another thug, but a capitalistic one? Once you start looking at things from a perspective other than knee-jerk America-is-better-than-everyone-else, it becomes easier to consider these questions with some intellectual honesty. You might, for example, ask yourself if American-style capitalism could have moved a nation with 14 time zones and who-knows-how-many ethnic groups from the dark ages to the space age in only 50 years (and through 2 world wars)

                                                                  Although a digression, I bring up Russia because I think a lot of American ideas about communism and socialism were formed in reaction to Stalinism.

                                                                  Now, as to socialism, most European countries incorporate some socialist ideas into their political and governance systems and many have socialist parties that are real parts of their government (as opposed to being marginalized into non-existence as they would be here at home). I would hardly call Sweden a failure. Or England, for that matter, which is a mix of socialism and capitalism.

                                                                  There are no pure socialists anywhere I imagine, just as there are no pure capitalists anywhere. But, rather than getting hung up on politically-loaded buzzwords like "socialism," it is certainly clear to ME that a country which tries to ensure a decent living for ALL its citizens is a better place to live than one where some people are filthy rich while others are destitute. It is clear that a country that solves the heathcare inequity problem is a better place to live. It is clear that a country that doesn't celebrate corporate greed, while denouncing any attempt by working people to get a better wage is a better place to live.

                                                                  If you still think the USA is the best of the best, maybe you'd better visit Detroit or, for that matter, any big city with a huge inner-city population of poor people. Did you know that the normal unemployment rate among twenties black men is about as high as the overall rate during the Great Depression? Can you imagine how much misery that causes?

                                                                  Do you think the crime and misery that situation has brought to our country for decades is REALLY to be preferred to that scary word "socialism?"

                                                                    #20.2 - Fri May 1, 2009 7:14 AM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Jean-721732

                                                                    The last administration had not been looking out for you America. I don't think the Republicans have been supporting you, the Middle Class American for the last 30 yrs, and the last administration has almost run America out of business for good.

                                                                    This was in our local paper today

                                                                    Phoenix-Dubai agreement aims to promote business

                                                                    After a two-year courtship, Phoenix and the Persian Gulf port of Dubai made their relationship official Wednesday in a ceremony packed with smiles and handshakes, gift exchanges and goodwill.

                                                                    Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon and Dubai Director General Hussain Nasser Lootah signed a partnership agreement aimed at promoting trade and foreign investment between the two cities.

                                                                    For more info google azcentral.com

                                                                    This does not make me happy. What can Phoenix invest besides cheap labor by quickly passing Immigration reform so cheap labor will be available. What Senator from Arizona supported that?

                                                                    A foreign company investing in America. Why can't an American company put up the same capital, get a tax break and keep that investment in America. Why can't Rove and Cheney the patriots that they claim they are, start up companies to help America, and then keep that company from foreign partnership.

                                                                    All that this investment will benefit is a foreign company and maybe some American investors by providing cheap labor. They want to later create a direct flight between the two locations. What? In our local paper, someone mentioned, "when will the Mosque be built?" Hey, can we trust these people, like the Saudis? Those terrorists involved with 9/11 were all Suadi nationals. The Republicans in last 30yrs have been turning a blind eye to these regimes in order to make a good money. Hypocrites.

                                                                    What the heck are these Republicans doing?

                                                                    Besides, CNN did a story today regarding the government of Dubai, and how they mistreat their own people, and torture people over something so minor as stealing $5,000 worth of grain. I am sorry, but we are way too friendly with the wrong Middle Easterners. Do you see how this can pose a problem later, like if the government of China goes crazy and starts mistreating and torturing their citizens and we can't say diddly, cause, well, they owe us. The Republicans sold America out, and they try to deceive you with well, we want to bring back our freedoms. I loved Rick Sanchez's comment, "What the hell does that mean?"

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    Reply#21 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:36 PM EDT
                                                                    oi812

                                                                    I have lived in Phoenix for he last 4 years but from what I have seen is the Repub in Arizona have been trying to stop illegal immigration but the Democratic Governor, That be Janet the new Homeland Security Director, has blocked all efforts. Google Sheriff Joe and look how is efforts are blocked.

                                                                      #21.1 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:50 PM EDT
                                                                      Jean-721732

                                                                      And how did Saudi Arabia and Dubai get so rich? By the American consumer buying their product to fill their tanks of the gas guzzlers that Chrysler built.

                                                                      I have lived in AZ for 20yrs and I don't agree with you regarding Napolitano, but I do agree Sheriff Joe has done the best he could. Our Republican Senators are pushing for a quick either Amenesty or work status. The Dubai company could partner with Houston as well.

                                                                        #21.2 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:53 PM EDT
                                                                        oi812

                                                                        When I was talking about the Repubs in Arizona, I was talking about the State Reps/Senators not the US Reps/Senators. I do not blame Chrysler-they just build what we buy. When gas is cheap people want big cars, when gas goes up they buy smaller cars, now that gas is cheap SUV and truck sales are going back up. People want bigger cars

                                                                          #21.3 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:03 PM EDT
                                                                          CBWY777Deleted
                                                                          Jean-721732

                                                                          My post is not about gas. It's about the Republicans doing business with the enemy for 30 yrs.

                                                                          We had the technology years ago to build a more fuel efficient car, and we could have stopped our dependence on foreign oil along with a cleaner environment, and without using much of our own domestic product. My post is about the Republicans not investing in America. I agree we always will have the need for oil, but for commuting around our cities, we don't need big SUVs.

                                                                            #21.5 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
                                                                            CBWY777Deleted
                                                                            Jean-721732

                                                                            I don't want to attack Republicans, I want to save what's left of America and try to give my children a future and a hope.

                                                                            I just want people to know that Republicans have not been looking out for Americans since the 1970s. Consider our last 30 yrs of conflict. Mostly Middle East, right? Starting with Carter, who by the way wisely said years ago, the way to fight terrorism is stop our dependence on foreign oil. All the wars that America has been fighting since Korea and Vietnam, has been about what? Oil! Protecting America's interst, OIL. We even made up a story about WMDs to invade a country. Heck. put our flag in the soil of Iraq now and get this mess cleaned up once and for all.

                                                                              #21.7 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:44 PM EDT
                                                                              robby-778896

                                                                              Jean-721732,

                                                                              Perhaps one of the first things you could do to help your country is to get educated.
                                                                              Dubai is not an oil nation, it provides less than 10% of thier GDP, so given that they are not oil rich like some other middle east countries, they are investing to make thier country the economic leader of the middle east. They have construction there that makes the Phoenix building boom look like nothing. Cheap labor, you will not find in DuBai, they just like phoenix import all of thier help, most of the workers are from india pakistan and other parts of asia, the people of DuBai are for the most part fairly well off. They are the middle east asia head quarters to a lot of companies now, and the play ground of the rich and famus.
                                                                              The man being beaten onTV was not being attacked by any member of the government, he was a relative of someone high up, and that is why some say nothing was being done about it.
                                                                              In many places both in this country and others, people could say the same thing about the people of Phoenix, and the way Mexicans are treated there, if you had to work outside all summer the way they have too you would quickly call it torture.

                                                                                #21.8 - Fri May 1, 2009 4:43 AM EDT
                                                                                docroc

                                                                                they just build what we buy -Oi812

                                                                                Another piece of unproven received wisdom. If American automakers just build what we buy, how did Honda, Toyota, and Nissan, and Europeans (as well as newer Korean companies) sell so many small, fuel-efficient cars to so many Americans since the 1950s? How come they could make money selling small cars (Honda has had a policy of nothing bigger than a 4-cylinder engine through most of its history in the USA) at the same time American cars were h-u-g-e?

                                                                                And, for a lot of that time, these foreign cars cost MORE than US brands, so price can't be the answer.

                                                                                So how do you account for this?

                                                                                  #21.9 - Fri May 1, 2009 7:22 AM EDT
                                                                                  Jean-721732

                                                                                  robby, I am educated, and my American values contrast with these evil regimes the Repubicans are doing business with. That is my point.

                                                                                    #21.10 - Fri May 1, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
                                                                                    robby-778896

                                                                                    Jean-721732,

                                                                                    My point was the DuBai is not some evil regime, it is perhaps the most advanced country anywhere near the middle east. Every major player in America is building there, even Harvard University, they have built some of the most incredible building you will every see, and could be a model on planning, unlike Phoenix which did think ahead ( I did live out there till a year ago ) they planned every thing.

                                                                                    Watch discovery they always have shows about DuBai, many many american are living and working there, it is no Iraq or Iran I assure you.

                                                                                      #21.11 - Sat May 2, 2009 12:51 AM EDT
                                                                                      Jean-721732

                                                                                      That's great for Dubai. They can afford the marketing to present themselves in a positive manner to the rest of the world. They are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

                                                                                      I too have friends that had worked there, and they offer a differing opinion from yours. Dubai invites the brightest minds and richest patrons from around the world to come and experiment with their engineering theories, and blueprints, in order to help build Dubai into the most glittering and technologically fun nation; akin to the Jurassic Park of the World. Yes Dubai shines, but only outwardly. The country does not value our true American values.

                                                                                      But that is okay, because those kingdoms are much older than our American democracy and Western ideals for advancing civilization. These Middle Eastern nations concentrate on the outward constructs, while the American value for civilization honors the inward man's constructs for advancing civilization.

                                                                                      America's light is dimming, and our financial stronghold is diminishing in the world. We can't tell a bully to knock it off anymore. Over in Dubai, the man beaten in the CNN piece is just business as usual. And how did that story get a reaction and become an embarrasment for Dubai? From our American media, and the right of our citizens to tell our stories of mistreatment.

                                                                                      Dubai will display a little outrage, but nothing will advance or change for the people to live freely under fair and impartial laws and receive justice by trial.

                                                                                      I appreciate your efforts in changing my mind regarding these middle eastern kingdoms, but I am afraid that you can not. I wonder if you were instrumental in bringing the Dubai partnership to Phoenix because of your tenacity in your posts.

                                                                                      Good day robby.

                                                                                        #21.12 - Sat May 2, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                        oi812

                                                                                        What I do not like is Obama saying that the bond holders did not want to take a hair cut when the fact is they wanted .40 on the dollar but was offered only .30. That sounds like a hair cut to me. But that is the way the left works lie/demonize to get what you want

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        Reply#22 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:40 PM EDT
                                                                                        Gary-901331

                                                                                        As far as Euro/USA Mufacturing alliances go, I believe that this one has merit. Daimler Benz tried to remake Chrysler in it's own image, and bled the budget from new product development. The REAL problems of Chrysler and GM has been the burden of past union and retirement commitments (back to the 70'2s and 80's) that has been a weight around their necks. I disagree with Edmunds Karl Brauer, because he is looking at an old business model based on overwhelming debt vs. a lean unencumbered NEW company with less dealers, overhead, and labor costs to slow it down. My money is on Chrysler to excell because they have a survival, innovative can do corporate culture (I worked there, as well as GM, Ford and Mazda in engineering) vs the good old boy not invented here culture of GM. With the addition of new diesel and small platform technology from Fiat to round out their passenger cars, with a simpler model lineup and clear objectives to meet tighter EPA requirements, Chrysler/Fiat will not only survive, but thrive.

                                                                                          Reply#23 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:49 PM EDT
                                                                                          salmonslayer

                                                                                          Chrysler has been dead money for years. The only reason Cerberus got involved was because they thought they were stealing the company due to loan guarantees from Daimler. Of course, not being car people, Cerberus didn't recognize the unbelievably weak R & D which would doom the company no matter what happened to the economy. Without fleet sales to pump up their numbers, it's a really ugly sales environment. So now we come to the current situation and with much fanfare and flag waving we've got another bunch of non car people masquerading as politicians who are going to have a "surgical" bankruptcy for the very same lineup of five thousand pound paperweights. OK , if Barack Obama , who has never gotten closer to a real business than most people have gotten to the Moon, thinks he can get this mess over with in less than 6 months and also thinks Fiat will save the day, I want to buy the first ticket to the show.

                                                                                            Reply#24 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:50 PM EDT
                                                                                            about2leave

                                                                                            Pay attention to the end of this article it says:

                                                                                            /

                                                                                            Still, the deal remains a lottery for Fiat, said IHS Global Insight’s Bellini...

                                                                                            /

                                                                                            That's for sure and someone won this lottery. According to the BBC News the USA taxpayer is throwing in 8 Billion Dollars to fund this bankruptcy payoff

                                                                                              Reply#25 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:50 PM EDT
                                                                                              Gary-901331

                                                                                              As far as Euro/USA Mufacturing alliances go, I believe that this one has merit. Daimler Benz tried to remake Chrysler in it's own image, and bled the budget from new product development. The REAL problems of Chrysler and GM has been the burden of past union and retirement commitments (back to the 70'2s and 80's) that has been a weight around their necks. I disagree with Edmunds Karl Brauer, because he is looking at an old business model based on overwhelming debt vs. a lean unencumbered NEW company with less dealers, overhead, and labor costs to slow it down. My money is on Chrysler to excell because they have a survival, innovative can do corporate culture (I worked there, as well as GM, Ford and Mazda in engineering) vs the good old boy not invented here culture of GM. With the addition of new diesel and small platform technology from Fiat to round out their passenger cars, with a simpler model lineup and clear objectives to meet tighter EPA requirements, Chrysler/Fiat will not only survive, but thrive.

                                                                                                Reply#26 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:57 PM EDT
                                                                                                todd- KCKS

                                                                                                Well if nothing else at least after the deal is done with Chrysler and Fiat Bob Nardelli will be not running Chrysler. It will be the third company this guy has run into the ground (Home Depot, GE) but of course he will walk away with millions and millions of dollars after doing so... again. Seriously, how stupid (or corrupt) would you have to be to hire this guy?

                                                                                                  Reply#27 - Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:01 PM EDT
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