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Does America need a new retirement system?

Tue May 5, 2009 7:46 AM EDT
business, personal-finance, only-on-msnbc-com, social-security, retirement, house-republicans, savings, says, employer, retirement-usa
msnbc.com News — Katrina Brown Hunt, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com

Look at retirement systems around the world, and you’ll see one recurring theme: Employees in many countries tend to set aside more of their income toward retirement than Americans do — sometimes a lot more.

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— No good deed goes unpunished.

That’s what unemployed Boston salesman Paul Escobar could be thinking. He’d been paying dutifully into his job’s 401(k) plan, and was hands-on with his allocation, putting a lot of his money in equities.

As of today, no surprise, he’s lost 45 percent of his balance — and he’s lost his job, too. In hopes of recovering losses, “I've definitely been rebalancing my allocations,” says the 42-year-old. He also says that he’s not opposed to using some other savings vehicles, like a variable life insurance policy.

At the same time, Escobar doesn’t think the 401(k) system is inherently flawed, nor does he welcome any reform to the way Americans save for retirement — especially one that would involve government intervention.

“I don’t want to be forced to save with anyone other than myself as the ‘decider,’” Escobar says. “I’ll choose where to get my personal guarantee on benefits.”

It’s a dilemma: We may need help, but we don’t necessarily trust someone else to save us. A rash of recent surveys shows many people are sending out distress calls regarding their retirement savings, especially when it comes to 401(k)s.

The Employee Benefit Research Institute, a research group supported by both business and labor, recently released its annual Retirement Confidence Survey, which found that only 13 percent of respondents said they felt they have enough money for a comfortable retirement — down from 27 percent in 2007. Transamerica’s recent retirement survey found that 37 percent of respondents now plan to work past age 70 and perhaps never retire. A Barclays Global Investors study found that 90 percent said they wanted a 401(k) to offer a guaranteed retirement income.

Dallas Salisbury, president of the EBRI, isn’t surprised — but he’s still skeptical.

“People now put a high priority on a guaranteed retirement income,” he says, “but surveys say they want to get it as long as they don’t give up anything — as in access to that money and power over it.”

Indeed, put the words “401(k)” and “guaranteed income” in the same sentence, and you quickly get a hot debate going among any number of retirement experts and lawmakers along the political spectrum. Some says 401(k)s are being criticized unfairly in this unprecedented  economic crisis, while others say the downturn proves that 401(k)s were never meant to be anyone’s primary source of retirement savings.

Should we be rethinking our retirement savings system?

“It’s time to have a campaign like we’ve had in health care in this country,” says Karen Friedman, policy director of the consumer advocacy group the Pension Rights Center, “We need to recognize a basic American ideal that everybody should be able to retire and make ends meet.”

Here are some ideas circulating from those who hope to strengthen — or completely rebuild — the way we approach retirement:

• Make 401(k) plans automatic. Most people agree that, given enough time, 401(k) accounts can recover from market losses. What’s impossible, however, is building more savings if you don’t save enough to begin with.

In his 2010 budget blueprint, President Barack Obama called for requiring existing 401(k) programs to be automatic — as in, once you start working for a company that has a 401(k) or similar program, you’ll be enrolled, unless you make it a point to opt out. Meanwhile, companies that don’t offer a 401(k) plan (and have at least 25 employees) would have to set aside funds for employees in individual retirement accounts. On top of that, the government would offer a roughly $500 tax credit for many middle-income workers.

What critics say: While everyone agrees that people should save more, forcing them to do so pushes political buttons. “Mandating participation is a high hurdle,” says Salisbury of the EBRI.

• Make 401(k)s more user-friendly. If you think you’re dense when it comes to reading the specifics of your company’s 401(k) plan — well, it’s not just you. For one thing, there’s information missing.

Reps. George Miller, D-Calif., and Rep. Rob Andrews, D-N.J., introduced a bill last week that would require financial service providers to disclose all fees associated with 401(k) plans. Such “little” fees can add up big, according to the Government Accountability Office: A report found that even one percentage point in excessive fees can bring down a 401(k) account balance by about 20 percent over the course of a worker’s career.

What critics say: Miller has been accused of being anti-401(k). House Republicans have introduced their own proposal to help strapped 401(k) holders — and, they say, protect 401(k)s from being weakened or abolished.

Within days of Miller’s bill, House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, and fellow House Republicans introduced the Savings Recovery Act, which seeks to mitigate lost savings through several measures. Among them is a batch of tax breaks: increasing the amount that employees can kick into 401(k)s; giving savers’ credits for college savings plans; raising the limit for Social Security income before the earnings penalty kicks in; and suspending the capital gains tax on newly acquired assets for two years.

• Forget 401(k)s and create a supplement to Social Security. Teresa Ghilarducci, an economic policy professor at the New School for Social Research in New York, spoke to a congressional panel last fall about "Guaranteed Retirement Accounts," which she proposed in her book “When I’m Sixty-Four: The Plot Against Pensions and the Plan to Save Them.”

In her proposal, employers and employees would be required to invest a combined 5 percent of a worker’s income into a program administered by Social Security and would also get an annual $600 government tax credit, adjusted for inflation. Contributions would be invested in a special breed of government bonds, offering a roughly 3 percent annual return. Ghilarducci proposed paying for those subsidies by cutting most tax breaks related to 401(k)s and IRAs.

What critics say: 401(k) advocates blast this plan over the loss of tax breaks, while dismissing the subsidy and 3 percent returns as chump change. Ed Ferrigno, vice president of Washington Affairs for the Profit Sharing/401(k) Council of America, says Americans won’t go for the mandated contribution. “It’s saying a worker should be forced to donate another 5 percent of wages,” he says. “I think that’s a profound issue — how does that affect people’s ability to pay into other benefits like health care?”

• More cash-balance plans. These hybrids of pensions and 401(k)s have the employer contributing to accounts in the worker’s name, but the employer controlling (and assuming risk for) the pooled accounts’ investments. As years pass, you can see your account total growing, and when you retire, you often have the option to take the balance in a lump sum. The Pension Protection Act of 2006 clarified the rules for these plans, and more companies are now adopting them — Coca-Cola Co. being one of them.

“We want to learn from the past,” says Alan Glickstein, a senior consultant at Watson Wyatt, a firm that helps design such plans, “and try to take the best features of 401(k)s and pensions and blend them. I think it’s the next big thing in retirement design.”

What critics say: Some have complained about how these plans were created out of otherwise failing pension plans and have questioned whether their formulas put older workers at a disadvantage. They can get complicated, too, as well as expensive. “As the employer, you’ve got to hire an actuary,” says Salisbury, “and you end up with the potential that the investment portfolio loses value. The employer may have to kick in a lot more money than they originally planned.”

• Create a new program where the government, an employer and employee share responsibility. A new initiative called Retirement USA — including public policy, union and consumer advocacy groups — is working on a proposal that would create a program that is “universal, adequate and secure.” Its working paper points to various models as worth exploring, including Ghilarducci’s proposal, TIAA-CREF’s retirement plans for doctors and academics, and a few programs outside the U.S.

Even though the group hasn’t articulated its plan yet, Retirement USA is already getting buzz (and flack) from both sides of the debate — mostly for implying that the government should have a greater role and that individuals shouldn’t be asked to manage their retirement money themselves. “This do-it-yourself system isn’t working,” says Friedman, of the Pension Rights Center, who is also a principal in Retirement USA. “It’s time to have a version with shared responsibility.”

What critics say: The “shared” element makes critics think socialism. Plus, “they’re really saying that in addition to Social Security, we should have second mandatory government retirement system,” says Ferrigno.

Friedman, meanwhile, says their plan won’t exclude 401(k)s altogether.

“There will always be a mechanism so that people can save on their own,” she says, “but we need a system that is more reliable. I think the people who understand this are the ones who have lost out.”

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anti-trust proponent

My last 401(k) lost every dime my company invested and part of mine until I wised up and put it all into treasuries. Blue Chips is what I was told to put it into when I was first able to invest. Only took one year to get out of them. Then the Mutual Funds became just as bad and I switched everything over to treasuries. By the time I left the company 5 years ago, I finally had the ORIGINAL amounts put in by the company and myself replaced........NO increase on my "investment." Permanent Life is probably the only "almost guaranteed" retirement plan, outside of SS. Mandatory 401(k)'s will just be another additional SS withholding from your pay. The only difference will be that the brokers will be stealing your money instead of Congress (who consistently robs the SS fund.) When I left the company to start my own business, I had reached the age where I could withdraw without penalty and closed out the 401(k) to start my own business. Now I've lost that investment as the economy in my area slowly evaporated my source of income (advertising for a monthly newspaper.)

Most small businesses make the biggest mistake possible when the economy goes sour, and that can be seen more and more today as huge newspapers are collapsing. The first thing most retailers cut from their usually non-existent budgets is advertising. Yet "branding" (repeated small advertisements that keep your name in front of the public) is the key to keeping your business alive. Your name has to stay in the minds of the consumers, so that when they ARE ready to shop, they remember you exist. I know of too many old businesses who have been around for decades who will still get long-term residents come in and say "I didn't know you were here!" Why? They don't brand themselves with regular advertising.

What we really need is a way to get people to invest in savings plans that have SECURE returns on their money, not the gamble that 401(k)'s or IRA's or other such "retirement" plans offer. The problem is to find someone smart enough to figure out what that plan would be.

  • 6 votes
Reply#1 - Tue May 5, 2009 9:15 AM EDT
schwannomin

I'm going with the lottery ticket approach.

  • 10 votes
#1.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
Carl W

What we really need is a way to get people to invest in savings plans that have SECURE returns on their money, not the gamble that 401(k)'s or IRA's or other such "retirement" plans offer. The problem is to find someone smart enough to figure out what that plan would be.

My general thoughts on retirement savings...

I'd rather make my own choices as to where I invest my money. I don't want to leave that choice up to the Republicans and Democrats in DC.

I took a few hours to research the mutual funds offered by my company's 401(k), and I'll do the same every few years as I rebalance my assets.

It shouldn't be too much to ask for people to research and learn where their 401(k) money is invested, whether it's high-quality low-fee mutual funds or rip-off funds and company stock.

When you decide to buy a house you spend at least a few days going over mortgage details, touring houses, getting a professional inspection, etc.

When you decide to save for retirement (which over the long-term is a much bigger investment than a house), isn't it reasonable to expect a person to do the necessary research to find out what you should and shouldn't be investing in?

Become educated about retirement savings. You don't have to be a financial expert to save for retirement--just like you don't have to be a real estate analyst or engineer to purchase a good house or a good car responsibly.

1. Stock mutual funds are great for the long-term. Don't have money in stocks 5 years before you retire--you should begin to transition your stock holdings to bonds and cash 5-10 years before retirement.

All these people who "lost" their retirement in this recession--they should not have invested in stocks if they were going to need the money immediately.

If you have until 2015 or longer before you retire, right now is a great time to buy stocks: they're on clearance sale!

If you're retiring in the next 5 or 6 years, you should have transferred your money into safer lower-yield investments.

2. If you don't know whether your 401(k) holdings are in good mutual funds or bad ones, or you don't know how much you have in company stock, your are either being lazy or stupid. Know where your money is!

Companies are required to inform you about where your 401(k) money goes. All you need to do is pay attention and do a little research.

You don't buy a house without knowing the neighborhood, inspecting the foundation, and shopping for a better mortgage--why would you invest hundreds of thousands of dollars over your entire working life without knowing where the money goes?

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:39 PM EDT
schwannomin

I'm all for complete freedom if all the complete freedom folks are also for complete responsibility... i.e. they willingly go on the street if their retirement funds dry up after they are no longer able to work. The fact is most now outlive their Soc. Sec. benefits and will FAR outlive those benefits as life expectancy continues to rise, and as yet no civilized society is willing to throw the elderly out into the street when they run out of what they paid in. Maybe America will be the first, but I doubt it. Until I start seeing elderly folks thrown out of retirement homes, there will NEVER be complete freedom in retirement plans, nor should there be. We have a moral obligation to care for the elderly, and it is reasonable to ask us all to pay into it.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:41 PM EDT
Greg-281912

We should all remember that the term "retirement" is a relatively new invention.

I, personally, plan to work in some way and generate some kind of income for as long as I can physically and mentally do so.

That said, no matter what your argument might be, Social Security and Medicare are socialistic programs, and that's fine. However, no one should have a goal of living ONLY on these social programs.

I like our government's combination of types of economies.

    #1.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
    Brian-595389

    In answer to the question, HE!! YES! Everyone should be responsible for their own retirement. Social Security may be social but it sure as heck isn't secure. This program is the greatest pyramid scheme ever devised, it never should have been.

    • 4 votes
    #1.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 4:31 PM EDT
    Gordon90N

    Brian,

    Why didn't you tell them how much money is actually in the Social Security Trust Fund __— and I'm NOT talking about the IOU's in the Lock Boxes in WV.

    • 1 vote
    #1.6 - Tue May 5, 2009 4:52 PM EDT
    Anna-364355

    A solution MUST include a prohibition for the US government to stop being able to borrow from the SS account. Historically, Social Security has financed every war from the Korean War all the way through Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Then, after the Social Security financed war debt is incurred, the conservatives (who love war) begin to whine that Social Security is falling apart and we need to get rid of Soc. Sec. and let people fend for themselves. Social Security funds, if they were never allowed to sit in the General Fund, therefore can be drawn from, would be healthy, would have earned much in interest over the past years.

    If you do not believe the above, why don't you let me be able to write checks and put in an IOU in your savings accounts.

    • 1 vote
    #1.7 - Tue May 5, 2009 8:27 PM EDT
    saxon

    Anna; you are on the right track. Social Security receipts are used by the government to borrow money. The federal reserve issues Treasury bonds, about 1.6 to 2.8 % interest is paid back into the system( it is just a book entry), the government gives a IOU to the SS administration fund. So what SS has is a bunch of Ur's from the Treasury. If inflation is running at 3 % or more it doesn't take long to deplete the system. The tresury began this as a temporary measure in 1942, it's still going on. That was the reason to privitize SS, the Government can't pay back the amount owed.

      #1.8 - Wed May 6, 2009 10:00 AM EDT
      hopevfear

      We don't need a new system.

      Let's just keep bleeding our elderly dry by relying on
      businessmen to act in a humane and honorable way.

      And let's keep sending them to those rehab centers
      that keep charging them for things they can no longer
      use like speech and physical therapy.

      My mom was forced to lift more weights in the last month
      of her life than she ever lifted during the rest of her entire
      80 years put together.

      For God's sake can't we ask them what they want and if
      they want to die with dignity, who the hell should stop them?

      And if Christians want them to live longer, why are they so
      afraid of being with Jesus. As usual they don't make sense...

        #1.9 - Tue May 19, 2009 5:11 PM EDT
        Reply
        mel patrick

        Good Lord, why do people think that the same clowns who can't effectively manage the current social security, medicare, medicaid systems should have more control over our money and our future? Social security is the largest Ponzi scheme in the world, and we should add to it??? We should let the government dictate how much we are to save toward our retirement? Does anyone understand that if the government can dictate minimums it can also dictate maximums (as it currently does with the deductible portions of retirement plans)?

        Come on, people. Take your lives back. Be responsible for yourselves. Believe me, a bunch of lawyer politicians is not where you want to place your trust and your future. There are no guarantees, even in government programs. Or should I say, "especially in government programs." What the government gives, it can take away. As someone once said, "A government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."

        • 14 votes
        Reply#2 - Tue May 5, 2009 9:16 AM EDT
        bodo1152

        Hey Mel: Some folks "need" to be dictated to by the government. I know many guys at work that don't contribute anything to their retirement because "they can't afford it". If they were forced to participate, then the taxpayers down the road will end up supporting them somehow. Maybe SSI is a ponzi scheme but, it's all guys like these will have when (if) they retire.

        • 3 votes
        #2.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
        Richard-351666

        The SS system are among the best run programs in the world. Who says they are not run well. SS has never failed to pay benefits. Medicare has saved most of our older folks from bankruptcy. The administrative costs for both systems run about 2% of the total paid in, unlike private health insurance where the administrative costs run close to 60%. Stop reading right wing garbage and deal with the real world. Without SS and medicare a lot of poor people who have worked hard their whole lives would have nothing. People who have made $20K for there entire working lives don't have $1M 401Ks, they usually don't have any 401K. 401ks were set up and benefit the upper middle class of America, not the people in the lower half of income levels. Stop acting like a jerk just because you are making a few more bucks then the average. You don't deserve it any more than any one else.

        • 11 votes
        #2.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:03 PM EDT
        Carl W

        Social Security is facing a huge financial shortfall as all the baby boomers retire and there aren't enough workers to support them.

        It is unsustainable at its current rate, and it barely pays enough income to keep people above the poverty level.

        Social Security will require some combination of big tax increases, pushing out the retirement age, or cutting benefits just to be sustainable.

        401(k)'s are a great solution--they offer good tax incentives for people to save for retirement. And they are not just for the upper-middle-class. Maybe we need more financial incentives for small businesses to be able to offer good 401(k) plans. But even for an 18-year old American making $10/hour, if they put 6% of their earnings (with a 3% company match) in a good mix of stocks & bonds (more stocks early in life, then bonds and cash as they near retirement) that averages 9% interest over his lifetime, that 18-year old $10/hour worker will retire at 65 with $1,408,503.90

        Even if the $10/hour worker doesn't have a 401(k) plan at work, if he works 40 hours/week opens an IRA and puts 6% of his income into retirement, averaging 9% (a conservative mix of stocks and bonds), he will have $939,002.60 to retire on at age 65.

        ...

        Do you make more than $10/hour? If so, you have no excuse for not retiring comfortably.

        • 2 votes
        #2.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
        Leprechaun1230

        Carl W: Looks as though you're pretty good with actuarial math. I'm impressed.

        There's a hole in your theory, at least in my opinion. You're suggesting a guy making $10/hour, which is $400 a week without overtime, and before taxes, should take 6% of this income and invest it in retirement. Honestly, I dont know where this ficticious individual will live.... with Mom and Dad or in a refrigerator box. I can only assume he/she's a skinny person that fortunately doesn't eat much either.

        This is the flaw in the 401K system. Your employer will often match with company stock. It usually takes about 5 years to be vested in the first year... and so on, and so on. There isn't much you can do with the employer contribution that is stock, and their stock is in the tank.

        So, Ok, you invest with one of these alleged "experts" in investments who have all the suggestions for putting money here and there....(think Mortgage originators... the alleged Experts that helped get us where we are today). THEY are interested in their commissions. The more they churn your money the more they make. They too are, for the most part Whores and theives, just as the mortgage "experts". The average guy doesn't know all that much about the investment options, and the gobbledegook they send you is in legalease and almost impossible to understand.

        We need something that will encoruage, if not force retirement savings that is able to keep the management fees at a minimum. SS was doing that, and still is. As I understand it, SS contributions over the years were not set aside and invested, but used to pay for government run programs with IOU's put in the SS system. Better control of the SS funds will help fix the system. Also these three simple steps will also help:

        #1 Do not tax social security income. does it make sense for the Federal Govt. to give you SS income, and then tax it back? Sounds goofy to me.

        #2: Raise the level of income that a person on SS can earn at a part time gig. If the person is wiling and able to work to increase their monthly income, why penalize him/her? Again, that's totally nuts.

        #3: Currently the cap on income that is subject to SS tax is something like $120k. Remove the cap. Whatever you make is subject to SS taxes.

        As I said earlier, I am no actuary or math wizzard, but maybe Carl can work his magic and see if these three simple steps would fix our current SS system. Whaddya say, Carl?? Run some numbers, ok?

        We need a guaranteed retirement system. Otherwise there will be people that can no longer work and are indigent. They'll probably be put on welfare. We'll all be paying them somehow, so we might as well make it mandatory for everyone to have someting set aside.

        Just my thoughts. I could be wrong.

        • 3 votes
        #2.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
        Carl W

        You don't have to trust an "expert" opinion for where to invest your money.

        You can just read up on the unbiased, cold, hard facts of how well a particular mutual fund has performed historically.

        If a fund has a .25% fee and has tracked the s&p pretty well for a few decades, then that's a pretty good fund for long-term investing.

        I do agree that there should be a limit on company stock that can be owned in a 401(k). They only work if people have good retirement options (high-quality mutual funds) available to put money into.

          #2.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
          Laura-261470

          Face it, Carl, not everyone is as intelligent and well-educated as you are. There are plenty of people who don't know how to do a web search, check their own credit rating, or set up their DTV tuner in this country, much less interpret beta values, understand investment risk, or find a reliable mutual fund company. Yes, I agree that we all should be responsible for ourselves (I'm doing my darndest!), but it's clear that many people won't or don't know how. (Look at the mortgage crisis if you need evidence.) Since we all pay for the mistakes of others in the end, we should try to put in place a reasonable system to make sure that everyone will be able to afford the necessities in retirement. (Note: This does not include yachts, spas, or around-the-world travel.) Our society still shows some respect for its elders by trying not to let them die on the streets or live on dog food, so we will end up paying to support any who fail at saving for retirement anyway. Better to have some system in place that will make sure they have something available to live on.

          I guess the point is that, in a way, we are already dependent on each other as a society, so until we are willing to shoot the lame, infirm, and elderly who can't support themselves we should try to build a system that assures support for everyone. Forcing the "irresponsible" or uneducated to save is probably not a bad option, unless you'd prefer for the few "responsible" types to support the rest.

            #2.6 - Tue May 5, 2009 7:38 PM EDT
            Don1978

            Leprechaun1230

            #1 Do not tax social security income. does it make sense for the Federal Govt. to give you SS income, and then tax it back? Sounds goofy to me.

            AGREED.

            #2: Raise the level of income that a person on SS can earn at a part time gig. If the person is wiling and able to work to increase their monthly income, why penalize him/her? Again, that's totally nuts.

            Agree 100%. Our gov't is INFAMOUS about punishing people for being moral, or trying to better themselves.

            #3: Currently the cap on income that is subject to SS tax is something like $120k. Remove the cap. Whatever you make is subject to SS taxes.

            NO. Successful people should not be punished for being successful. I only make $60k/ year, but just because someone makes 600k, doesn't mean they sould have to fund SOMEONE ELSES retirement.

            As I said earlier, I am no actuary or math wizzard, but maybe Carl can work his magic and see if these three simple steps would fix our current SS system. Whaddya say, Carl?? Run some numbers, ok?

            We need a guaranteed retirement system. Otherwise there will be people that can no longer work and are indigent. They'll probably be put on welfare. We'll all be paying them somehow, so we might as well make it mandatory for everyone to have someting set aside.

            Agreed somewhat here. I don't think 401k should be mandatory, but the default 401k FUND should be 100% savings account/bond. Only 3-5%, but you won't lose your arse as 90% of the people wanting to retire have in the past 5 years. I made my parents (and myself) shift into savings/bonds when warren buffett said to, so we didn't lose anything. Most didn't. Now they're stuck. The people that I really feel bad for are the ones that shifted AFTER the tank. They'll never get their money back now. If you're young or middle-aged, and lost your butt, leave your $ where it is now. It WILL go back up. You sank with it, be sure to ride it back up. Don't stay at the bottom. My 2 cents.

            Just my thoughts. I could be wrong.

              #2.7 - Wed May 6, 2009 10:26 AM EDT
              Porkbevr

              The Obamanistas would like nothing more than to take all, 100%, of your paycheck and then give you what they feel you need when they feel you need it. I bet an alarming percentage of our populace would be glad to support the liberals in that effort, too. Scary.....

                #2.8 - Wed May 6, 2009 6:33 PM EDT
                Reply
                sdpaulson

                Here it comes, another Government money grab!

                Remember Social Security? As I look at my pay stub I see that I'm still paying that! History will repeat itself! Mr. President, Congress, and Lawmakers: put the money back into Social Security that's been STOLEN through the years from the AMERICAN PEOPLE and we will have more than enough for retirements!

                They may think "their" thoughts are well intentioned but let me be perfectly clear, I "DON'T WANT" Congress/Government involved in ANY money I happen to set aside for myself or my family, EVER!!!! My risks are my own and I don't "TRUST" Government!

                Two suggestions:

                A) Automatically take 5% of the Federal Income Tax I presently pay and direct that to a 401k specifically in my name! (I AM NOT POOLING, SHARING, OR REDISTRIBUTING MY MONEY/WEALTH WITH ANYONE ELSE!)

                B) The Federal Government provides every American $150 annually to visit a retirement specialist. That is a credit on your annual federal taxes - only IF you have a receipt. Because everyone and every familiy is in a different situation, a "blanket" fix won't work for everyone.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#3 - Tue May 5, 2009 9:35 AM EDT
                BP-881641

                I sure am glad that the government is going to take care of me since I'm incapable of making decisions for myself. Are they going to follow me to the restroom and help me wipe next.

                This government intervention in every aspect of our lives needs to stop!

                • 4 votes
                Reply#4 - Tue May 5, 2009 10:03 AM EDT
                Carl W

                Stop being so mean to Americans who don't know how to wipe their @sses!

                Some of us need a socialist government to wipe for us and control our retirements.

                • 2 votes
                #4.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
                Reply
                counselortroi2

                All this carping about "socialism" is beside the point. Just look at all the people who have lost huge chunks of their 401k value in the current recession, and think how much better off they'd be with a government-guaranteed retirement account plus Social Security. We could keep the IRAs and 401ks too, but at least everyone would have a basic floor of income in their retirement years. Also, if we had the guaranteed accounts, people would be less vulnerable to scam artists like Madoff and his competitors in crime. Government exists for a purpose, and the larger and more "diverse" (read "chaotic") our population becomes, the more we need that purposeful intervention.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#5 - Tue May 5, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                jake-288926

                well i personally wount be able to retire because social security just wount be enough to pay the bills, and on another not my mother has paid and still is paying into social security and she is 71 and she can't get social securitythanks to our beloved government they suck and need to keep their greety little hands off my money......

                • 1 vote
                #5.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 11:27 AM EDT
                Carl W

                Nobody has an excuse for "losing" money in their 401(k) to this recession.

                If you have enough time for the market to rebound, you won't "lose" anything...just let the market recover and buy some stocks while they're cheap right now.

                If you don't have enough time for the market to rebound, and you're about to retire, then you shouldn't have had money sitting in stocks so close to retirement.

                It's called common sense. If you didn't bother to become educated about the risks of stock holdings and the difference between short-term and long-term investments, even though your retirement decisions are counting on you, then you were just lazy.

                Is personal responsibility dead?

                • 1 vote
                #5.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:56 PM EDT
                Leprechaun1230

                Exactly right, Councelor. I lost a fortune in my retirement funds. I DID go to the alleged experts, did what they suggested. I got totally hammered. On top of that, I've lost all the equity in my home. I am now upside down, as they say. Double whammy.

                I must disagree with Carl, when he says there's no excuse for "losing" money in their 401k to this recession. Millions of people did! They also lost their home equity as well.

                I have common sense, and did take the advise of the alleged experts, and still got burned bad. I dont know if I will ever be able to retire now. I did what I thought was the right thing to do, listened to "experts/flim flam artists" and didnt benefit. Oh, the investment people were sure to take their management fees. I did raise hell about that and managed to get the fees cut in half. Fat lot of good that did me!!

                I am of the opinion that Carl is quite the fortunate guy. Got lucky it seems.

                • 1 vote
                #5.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:56 PM EDT
                Gordon90N

                Carl #5.2,

                Answer to your last question: pretty much (dead) !

                  #5.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 5:05 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  Roland-320510

                  Untaxed money went into 401K and tons of money has been lost in 401K's. Hundreds of thousands of retirees and about to be retirees have seen their future go "poof", or at the very least, are looking at a much lower standard of living in retirement, or a delayed retirement, or both. Maybe the volitility associated with markets that, as the current economic mess has shown, are largely at the mercy of the mistakes of government (through non-regulation and stupidly thought out "homeownership plans", greedy bankers and Wall Streeter, have shown that 401K's are not, by themselves, the way to provide for retirement. It is a problem that needs to be addressed because 401K's do not work as the primary method for providing retirement support. There is also a lot to be said about getting government - at least the government as we know it - getting involved. It's sad, but the adage has become if you want to totally screw something up, make it a government project - and that needs to change more than anything else.

                  For now though, why not provide a real bailout to those who really haven't created this mess and who are directly being impacted by it - the retirees. Create a different tax scale for 401K withdrawals, taking into account the amount a retiree has, and sources of other income. It is not a perfect fix, but it does offer some relief to many who are truly innocent victims of the greed and stupidity of much of the rest of this country, including those who run the government, but did not have effective regulatory control in place to address Wall Street's new fangled investments that were based on stupid loans bankers were enticed to give out like candy by both unrealistic government "prohome policies" and the lack of risk in holding loans through sales on secondary markets.

                    Reply#6 - Tue May 5, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                    jake-288926

                    you all know that this government doesn't give a rats ass about you or me they have their retirement and thats all it matters they don't even pay into it i think that they need to pay into social security just like we all have to.

                    • 3 votes
                    #6.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 11:33 AM EDT
                    Ian Blokesworth

                    Roland-320510 wrote - "Hundreds of thousands of retirees and about to be retirees have seen their future go "poof", or at the very least, are looking at a much lower standard of living in retirement, or a delayed retirement, or both."

                    They have been told that close to retirement, their money should be invested very conservatively. A lot of retirees just got greedy and thought they could make a fortune by investing aggressively (high gain for high risk of loss).

                    Poof? We're talking about a loss of about 40% from the stock market peak. I bet that the amount of money in the average 401K is very close to the amount contributed. That is, there is short term paper loss but no actual loss of contributions. With the average 401K funded by 3% of income, it's obvious that the average worker didn't see the 401K as a priority for savings.

                    • 2 votes
                    #6.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:52 PM EDT
                    Carl W

                    Why would you have money invested in the stock market if you can't afford a short-term decline?

                    That's your own fault if you did. Only invest in stocks if you have enough time to recover from a temporary recession.

                    There's no government big enough or socialist enough to fix stupidity.

                    • 2 votes
                    #6.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:58 PM EDT
                    tony h-1085514

                    Carl is not fortunate or lucky, just doing the right things. I'm in a lifecycle fund, lost my butt, but i am not close to retiring. I see a 401k as MY gamble on being able to retire early, @62,67,72,never. How much of a risk am I willing to take. Get Gov. out of the charity business. That's what family, friends& charities are for. I don't see many amish in Gov. hand out lines.

                      #6.4 - Thu May 7, 2009 10:18 AM EDT
                      Reply
                      DJ-867199Deleted
                      dpaul

                      One issue that I see rarely addressed is the Defined Benefit retirement plan vs. the Defined Contribution retirement plan. Almost all Private retirement plans are Defined Contribution type retirement plans. The amountof money deposited into the account is defined (employee and employer deposit a defined amountof money into the account) and when the individual retires and starts withdrawing from the account the balance is dependent on the amount deposited and the increase in value of the investment products.

                      Rarely do you see Defined Benefit Plans anywhere else but Federal, State and Local public employees contracts. These plans hold the citizens hostage by defining the amount of money that the retiree can withdraw from the account. That withdrawal is amount is guaranteed and is not dependent on the amount deposited or the increase/decrease of the investments. So under the Defined Benefit Plan if the investments do not cover the withdrawals then the taxpayers are forced to pay the difference.

                      Under these type plans, it is clear that the Defined Benefit Plan employee's will retire in style and at the public's expense.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#8 - Tue May 5, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
                      SurpriseSurprise

                      You're absolutely right! If I had it to all over again I would have skipped college and gone to work for the post office. Those guys all retire "in style" around age 55.

                      • 1 vote
                      #8.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
                      LetsBeReasonable

                      Defined Benefit Plan is definitely what we need to GET BACK to. This is what we had in this country before Reagan and his buddies screwed us all. Not only did he borrow against Social Security and never pay it back, but he convinced employees to give up their guaranteed, no risk pensions for non-guaranteed, risk pensions called the Defined Contribution Plans.

                      • 1 vote
                      #8.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
                      Carl W

                      Defined Benefit Plans are unsustainable.

                      There's no guarantee that any specific business will be around 40 years from now. Just look at GM 40 years ago vs today--nobody wants their cars.

                      They can "guarantee" money until the cows come home, but if they don't have customers, they can't make good on those guarantees.

                      I'd rather have a choice how I save up for retirement than be stuck in an unsustainable pension

                      • 2 votes
                      #8.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:00 PM EDT
                      The Worm Turned
                      1. Social Security is going to be broke soon.
                      2. My impression is that Social Security is part defined benefit and available contribution.
                      3. The new government add-on retirement benefit systems seem to follow the same model as SS.

                      I though that SS was supposed to be the retirement safety net? Not luxurious, but basic. Now that it's about broke, and now we need a new system to run along side of it? What! If SS cannot be fixed, then anything the government adds along side will still be a broken system. Take the private portion out fo the equation, because that will be seperate from government plan, not mandated and not available unless you contribute. I do encourage plans to tip the balance in favor of a person making those private retirement plans.

                        #8.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 4:17 PM EDT
                        anti-trust proponent

                        dpaul.....that is EXACTLY why most local, state, and federal retirement plans are now in what they call "severe unfunded liability" problems. Benefits have been increased over the years at rates that can never be covered by the contributions. PLUS, the "employers" (the government/institution) have fallen way behind on making their contributions and the "governing boards" of these PERS/GERS (or whatever initials they want to use for them) have made so many "bad investments" of the funds that they are severely underfunded now. The GERS in the US Virgin Islands is in that type of near bankruptcy position "unfunded liability." I know of teachers who worked at high salaries in management for their last couple of years and are now "retired" on over 60K per year after getting a $75K salary the last couple years of work. Of course their basic teacher's salaries and contributions during most of their career sure didn't support that kind of payout. Our GERS retirement system here is a total joke. And our legislators wrote themselves into the same system in the 11th hour of 2005 under Act #6905, increasing their pay (retroactive to October of 2005, the beginning of the budget year....illegal for anyone currently in office at the time of the salary increase) from $65K to $85K or more (based on the lowest paid Commissioner salary DETERMINED BY THE GOVERNOR, not the legislature or the voters) AND giving them a step increase payout for years of service in the legislature. After 20 years in the legislature, they get the FULL SALARY at time of departure for the rest of their lives. Wow, talk about robbing the taxpayers. Guess they took the example from our great Congressional leaders. For a territory of just 110, 000 people, our government salaries rank in the top 3 states in the nation.

                          #8.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 10:44 PM EDT
                          dpaul

                          Anti-trust proponent, Carl W

                          Your right, the unfunded liability is unsustainable and fundamentally flawed. As you have noticed it is a system that is easily corrupted and one that is really quite difficult for the taxpayer to eliminate. It's possible but difficult to tackle politically the "government" employee's are almost all represented by very strong union organizations that would fight any change in status (from defined benefit to defined contribution plans) to their current employee retirement plans.

                          I guess the real question is - would we vote for someone who had this on their platform?

                            #8.6 - Thu May 7, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            Craig-846111

                            Is it just me, or isn't there something wrong with the words 'government' and 'guarantee' in the same sentence? How is that working out with SS? Look at how the government handles the money it gets in taxes now, do we really want to trust them with more?

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#9 - Tue May 5, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
                            LetsBeReasonable

                            It's just you.

                            Social Security is working just fine. The propaganda that it doesn't work comes from big business. They want all of our money to go to Wall Street instead of to the guaranteed 5% that the US Treasury fund provides the Social Security INSURANCE pool. If we tweak SS to only go to those who are truly poor when they retire, then SS has done it's job.

                            Guaranteed pensions backed by the government also worked just fine.

                            What has failed miserably since it's inception in the early 80s is the no-guarantee give-away to Wall Street called 401K.

                            SS was intended to be an anti-poverty program not a retirement program. It works just fine when you look at it as what it was intended to be.

                            • 1 vote
                            #9.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:37 PM EDT
                            Craig-846111

                            I think you may be on to something by only allowing the people who actually need SS to get it. What income limit would you put on the people who get it? I will be 40 in a couple of months and I have no plans on collecting SS when the time comes. The number of people working versus the people receiving make SS not a viable option for my generation.

                              #9.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:43 PM EDT
                              LetsBeReasonable

                              I'd go with anything the fact that if you have other income that exceeds more than 3x the poverty level, you are not allowed to receive social security.

                                #9.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:01 PM EDT
                                Rob Scan

                                SS was designed to be an anti-poverty program? So you are supposed to live in poverty until you reach retirement age?

                                401k's work fine if people take responsibility and manage them. If you don't want to take risks in equities, you can put your money into treasuries or bonds. If you rode the market down during this recession, shame on you for not paying attention.

                                Looks to me that the other options proposed in the article were just an expansion of current government programs. SS was not designed to be a retirement program. It was only to keep you out of the poorhouse when you reached old age, and should only be one leg of your retirement chair. I'm tired of people not taking personal responsibility and saving and investing for their future.

                                  #9.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                  Laura-261470

                                  Yes, SS WAS designed to be an anti-poverty program, to prevent elderly people from having to eat dog food, etc. These days, there are plenty of wealthy retirees and I find it galling that folks over 55 are getting discounts at stores when their SS checks are being paid for younger people who may never see a penny. Yes, let's PLEASE have means testing for Social Security. Otherwise it's just a transfer of funds from the young to the "elderly."

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #9.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:39 PM EDT
                                  Islandgirl-395255

                                  Laura - you are an absolute nitwit!!! How is SS a "transfer of funds from the young to the elderly"?? Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, that is collecting SS today has paid into it with thousands and thousands of dollars of their money that was deducted from their paychecks while they were working. Many of us "elderly" people will never live long enough to actually collect any where near what we paid into it for the last 45 years or more!!

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #9.6 - Tue May 5, 2009 6:42 PM EDT
                                  Laura-261470

                                  Actually, the money you are receiving today was NOT put into the system by you. Your money was used to pay the previous recipients of Social Security. The money we're putting in now goes to paying current recipients. There IS no "lock box" for Social Security funds, thus the concern that Social Security will not last into the future.

                                  By the way, name calling won't get you very far, at least in terms of respect for your opinions.

                                    #9.7 - Tue May 5, 2009 7:05 PM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    LetsBeReasonable

                                    I thank God that I work in academics so that I can have TIAA-CREF instead of some 401k scam. If it wasn't for the Guaranteed Retirement Savings portion of TIAA-CREF I would have no hope of ever retiring.

                                    What four-letter word starts with F, ends with K and means screw your employees? 401K

                                    401ks not guaranteed and all the risk is with the employee. Meanwhile Wall Street blows your money like a drunken sailor.

                                    We need to get back to guaranteed pension plans for hard-working Americans like we used to do.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    Reply#10 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:34 PM EDT
                                    Craig-846111

                                    LBR, I don't think there are any guarantees in life as a whole, why should this be any different? I am responsible for my future. If I don't do it, I should not expect it to be done. The key word is expect. I said this once before, as soon as the government says they will guarantee something, the majority of people stop trying for themselves.

                                      #10.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                                      LetsBeReasonable

                                      Philosophically speaking that's true. There are no guarantees. However, in the past, an employer provided pension WAS guaranteed as it was BACKED by our government. In addition, this was a reward for years of loyal hard work and service to your company and/or country. No one was ever denied their pension when things worked this way before Ronnie Raygun became President.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #10.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                      Craig-846111

                                      True, but times change and so does the economic world. There is no loyalty in the working world now, either from the employee or employer.

                                        #10.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:17 PM EDT
                                        Carl W

                                        LetsBeReasonable,

                                        "4" is not a letter. It's a number. Did you say you were a teacher?

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #10.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
                                        John-755418

                                        LBR, in case you haven't noticed, the American worker has to compete on a global scale now. The reason guaranteed retirements and unions are disappearing is because these programs cost more for businesses. Why would a business pay for an American worker at these elevated rates when they can move their operations overseas to, say, Mexico and not have to pay for these programs? You can cry foul and fight for these programs to return but you're going to chase all the jobs out of the country doing so. Sorry, but this is the world in which we live today.

                                        This is one of the reasons the dems are looking into nationalized healthcare. If the government is covering the cost for everbody's healthcare, this makes hiring American workers a little more attractive for private industry.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #10.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 4:10 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        Real-ist

                                        There will be no retirement for most. Just work. All the way to the end. We are but sheep, here only to feed the hoard. To advance a few others lifestyles and material possessions. Life will be wasted doing just that. Who herds the sheep? Hoarding, deceitful vultures.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#11 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:41 PM EDT
                                        LetsBeReasonable

                                        I've already prepared myself for that. Most people I know that are retiring wind up semi-retiring and going to work part-time. My Dad is 80 and still works part-time.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #11.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:47 PM EDT
                                        DrowningGrover

                                        that's the inevitable direction of unregulated Capitalism.

                                        Unregulated Capitalism = work or die, nothing more, nothing less...

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #11.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
                                        Ian Blokesworth

                                        The cushy retirement was a fantasy provided by brokerage investment commercials. The reality is that parents will live off the earnings of their children.

                                          #11.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
                                          Laura-261470

                                          In the 50s and 60s, when the US economy was riding the post WW II wave of prosperity, healthy pensions were expected for all long-term employees. That's why my father could retire at 55 and is now living on a pension and Social Security. (He's over 70 now.) For younger folks, we may have to work all our lives. So let's fix Social Security NOW, not wait until the baby boomers have a happy retirement on our backs.

                                            #11.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
                                            Gordon90N

                                            Laura,

                                            Do you have a plan to fix SS ?

                                              #11.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 5:22 PM EDT
                                              Laura-261470

                                              The only way to "fix" Social Security is to either drastically reduce its payouts or drastically increase the inputs. It's basically a problem of demographics and the change in the world economy. The current rate of payout is not sustainable based on the number of young people moving up to become the future work force. So either we cut back on what is being paid out now or expect the system to crash in the future. Why should people with pensions be allowed to draw SS for 20-30 years now when those of us who are paying into the system likely won't get much at all when we retire 30 years from now?

                                                #11.6 - Tue May 5, 2009 7:09 PM EDT
                                                anti-trust proponent

                                                Well, I guess you are saying that all of us post-war babies (I'm older than the official baby boomers) should continue to work full time until we reach 70-80 before we can collect what we paid into so that you have some money later??? How much do you want to cut our payout to?????? 1/10 of poverty level??? Most of us are below poverty level on our payouts already.......especially those in their 70's/80's/90's and the female spouses who are relying on their husband's social security because they worked at home all of their lives. I chose to take my SS at 62 because a spreadsheet run of the totals of monthly payouts showed that I'd be into my late 70's or maybe even 80 before I'd be at the equalization point of taking full retirement at 66 (yes, 66, not 65 with the new delayed full retirement age formula for us post WWII babies). And I am restricted on how much I can earn until I turn 66 next year to a figure that is about the same as the total annual payout (this year I can make $13K before they deduct $1 for every $2 over that amount.) After full retirement, I'll be able to earn about $34K before they deduct $1 for every $3 over that amount. They further penalize anyone on SS if they are SELF-EMPLOYED. You can only work a MAXIMUM of 45 hours a month before losing your benefits. That means if you OWN a business, you can basically have little to do with running it AND you damn well better not make any money in that sole-proprietor business. It can become just as tricky for a sole stockholder in a corporation, since the profits of the corporation are considered income of the sole stockholder. Early retirement does mean that for that 4-5 year period you can't even be "semi-retired" I guess without paying a penalty for it. Then you have to continue to work to pay the bills until you die.......unless you figured out a way to get a guaranteed pension from someone to supplement your SS. Many of us never had the money to "invest" in retirement plans, we weren't from wealthy families. We didn't have $30-$45/hour plus benefit jobs like the auto workers of today. We often weren't even making the "minimum" wage of those days because OUR jobs weren't included in the requirement (restaurant workers and anyone else who earned tips as part of their wage were NOT included back in our 30's or younger age.)

                                                Are you ready to live on just $800-1200 per month in today's cost of living???? You want to REDUCE those payouts???? One of the big problems of SS is the fact that DISABILITY was added to the system a couple decades ago without increasing the taxes to cover for those benefits AND dependent children up to age 18, unless in college, then up to age 21 were also added. Some of my cousins fell into this "blessing" when my uncle died in a car accident. The combined income for the ones under 21 was much more than what I'm now able to get on my social security nearly 30 years later with all of the COL increases.

                                                The original SS was supposed to be SUPPLEMENTAL RETIREMENT BENEFITS for the WORKER upon retirement. So the combination of Congress robbing the fund continuously and the addition of all of these new beneficiaries has more to do with the depletion of the fund than what we now on SS are getting in our benefits.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #11.7 - Tue May 5, 2009 11:25 PM EDT
                                                Laura-261470

                                                We're all going to be working until we are 75 and still not get any SS -- is that any more fair than reducing benefits today? And you can't blame our generation for Congress robbing SS funds or expanding benefits. Why should we have to bear the cost of prior generations' irresponsibilities? Are you OK with passing on this failing system on to your kids -- after getting your benefits out?? Do you have any solutions for us?

                                                  #11.8 - Wed May 6, 2009 1:42 AM EDT
                                                  Gordon90N

                                                  Laura #11.6,

                                                  Why shouldn't people with pensions, savings, and/or other retirement vehicles be able to receive their SS benefits ? Afterall, they paid into the system for all the time that they worked ! Why should they be penalized for planning ahead for their retirement ?

                                                    #11.9 - Wed May 6, 2009 9:07 AM EDT
                                                    Gordon90N

                                                    Laura #11.8,

                                                    Don't count entirely on SS benefits to cover your retirement costs __— it was NEVER intended for that, it was intended to SUPPLEMENT your retirement income. Sit down and look at your current situation, come up with a rough estimate of where you want to be, then come up with a plan to get you there. Don't forget to keep an eye on how things are going (not always as planned or expected) and make necessary adjustments to compensate for those changes. Learn to do things on your own ! There are a lot of "experts" out there whose agenda is to separate your money from you into their pockets. Learn to be vigilant. Don't be discouraged if things don't look as rosy as you like in the beginning, as long as you're moving in a positive direction. Good luck !

                                                      #11.10 - Wed May 6, 2009 9:27 AM EDT
                                                      Laura-261470

                                                      I'm not counting on getting ANYTHING from Social Security and am socking away money in my 401k, but unless the stock market rebounds quickly (unlike after the Depression), I am going to be hosed. But I'm still not happy with the idea that I am paying into a system I may never receive any benefit from....

                                                        #11.11 - Wed May 6, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        Jason-369321

                                                        The examples are complete idiots. The only way you are still down 45% is if you took money at the rock bottom and then STILL haven't got back in the market. I am up 28% year-to-date, so why is this person so bad off? It is not everyone else's fault because this bone head ran it into the ground rather than moving some money out during the fall. That and he should have seen the comeback a month ago. At the very least money should be transferred to a bond/stock fund to take advantage of high bond yields and stock rises. What is it going to take for this moron to do something? Probably an act of congress, or god, or both...

                                                        You want sympathy? It is between $hit and Syphillis in the dictionary....wah!

                                                          Reply#12 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:42 PM EDT
                                                          Carl W

                                                          Jason,

                                                          What's wrong with you? Do you believe in personal responsibility or something?

                                                          Join the rest of the crybaby socialists who would rather blame 401(k)'s or "Wall Street" or whatever for their failure to save adequately!

                                                          :-)

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #12.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:03 PM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          traveler-938468

                                                          The only guarantee I agree with is where if my employer is part of the pension...other than that, there is no guarantee of a pension or retirement, social security was a mistake, an attempt to have the great society ensure that the masses would have some sort of retirement. Why should anyone but you be responsible for your retirement? Think ahead, and save, again with the caveat that if your employer shares in the responsibility, then you should have some guarantee that the money will be there for you, but to say that we need some system that guarantees that everyone can retire and do so comfortably...NO people need to think and prepare for themselves, and not rely on others ie the government to provide for them. The "nanny state" will bankrupt us all in the end.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#13 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:47 PM EDT
                                                          LetsBeReasonable

                                                          social security was created as an anti-poverty program to keep elderly out of poverty. back then very few people lived beyond the retirement age. SS has been tweaked every few years to keep up with changes. It's only in a state of flux for now because Reagan borrowed against it in the 80s and never paid it back. In addition, he raised withholding taxes to make up for what he borrowed.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #13.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:03 PM EDT
                                                          Go USA-851295

                                                          How did he never pay it back and then raise withholding taxes to make up for what he borrowed? Seems contradictory.

                                                            #13.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:03 PM EDT
                                                            Gordon90N

                                                            Traveler #13,

                                                            As to your last sentence, they've pretty much done that already !

                                                              #13.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 5:27 PM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              Michael-784318

                                                              UnFreaking real!   No mention is made of Defined Benefit plans as an option. 

                                                              The most cost effective and secure retirements plans available and no mention of them?  You've got to be kidding. 

                                                              Thankfully, my retirement is safe in a Defined Benefit plan.

                                                               

                                                                Reply#14 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:50 PM EDT
                                                                Carl W

                                                                Until the company that made promises 40 years ago has been driven into the ground by dumb decisions.

                                                                Now they have all these "guarantees" and no way to pay for them.

                                                                I'd rather spread my money over the broader economy long-term than take "promises" from one single business.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #14.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:04 PM EDT
                                                                Greg-281912

                                                                I've worked for a company for over 30 years. Up until about 10 years ago, we had a pension plan that was GREAT! But it was done away with, so now we have no pension plan. (Company was sold to new owners and new owners simply did away with it.)

                                                                I thought I was on the right path, but that rug was jerked out from under me. Now, I'm on my own, and that's just the way it is, so I will have to work longer.

                                                                  #14.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 4:31 PM EDT
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Richard-351666

                                                                  I want nothing to do with any plan that involves any control or influence by employers. If there is one thing the decline of the pension plans should teach you silly children, is that if a company can get a tax credit without actually putting the money in a safe account, they will. The reason GM, Delta, Chrysler, etc. are in such trouble with pensions is they were allowed to take the benefit of contributing money into pension plans, where the worker earned every dollar, without actually putting any money into those reserve accounts. Thus you get incredibly underfunded pension funds. These people do not desrve to live, they do not desrve to be part of the discussion.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  Reply#15 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:55 PM EDT
                                                                  LetsBeReasonable

                                                                  The only advantage is the before tax savings which lowers your reportable income and if still offered, an employee match up to a certain %. Don't completely shut out the 401k plan.

                                                                    #15.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:17 PM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Munsta Boy

                                                                    What we would like to see in this country is that the workers whom took care of the backbone of your company and made you filthy stinking rich get paid a good chunk of social security and that be placed on your rich back. Yeah, here is how it works, you pay into social security just like the poor do on their jobs but since you make over a certain amount annually and can afford to take care of your rich arse you will not get SS when you retire. Just be thankful that you had the poor slobs whom made you rich working for you and its their benifits so they can retire a little better. Why should SS pay your sorry greedy backside when you retire when you have well more than enough opportunity and savings than the working man. Don't try to argue with this, we can make it happen and probably will in the coming years. Whats fair is fair is how its to be looked at. Lots of people have worked hard to make the rich wealthy and they should be compensated for it. You take our jobs and put them overseas, we have another idea for you and this is already in the works. Deal with it or have WAR.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    Reply#16 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:59 PM EDT
                                                                    Go USA-851295

                                                                    This sounds like you are advocating stealing from the people who paid into the Social Security system. Everyone who is employed, rich and poor alike, are forced to pay into the system, whether they need to or not. The money they receive is only the government holding up their end of the bargain. The government may not take this money and infact is barred from doing so by the 5th Amendment which reads:

                                                                    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

                                                                    To take someone else's social security to be used by someone else (public use) is the seizure of private property and is prohibited.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #16.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                                                    LetsBeReasonable

                                                                    It's insurance to keep the elderly out of poverty. The NEW DEAL was a COMPROMISE between SOCIALISM and CAPITALISM. Social Security was one of the concessions the CAPITALISTS gave in to. It's actually worked very well as designed, which is an anti-poverty program, funded by the tax payer.

                                                                    So how is this any different than the fact that you pay taxes that go into other things that benefit some of us discriminately depending on our circumstances or situation at the time...things like public safety, public health, public education, public transportation, highways, bridges, etc.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #16.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:22 PM EDT
                                                                    DJ-867199Deleted
                                                                    Carl W

                                                                    If you don't want to retire, don't save for retirement! Some people really enjoy their life's work and want to continue it.

                                                                    If you want to retire, save up money to make it happen.

                                                                    Educate yourself about what savings options are good and bad for your situation. With free internet and books at your public library, you have no excuse for not knowing the basics of mutual funds, IRA's, 401(k)'s, etc.

                                                                    I refuse to accept that people are too lazy or stupid to make basic choices about saving for their retirement.

                                                                    What's wrong with people taking responsibility for bettering their situations?

                                                                    Have we completely sold out to the ideology of making excuses for everybody?

                                                                      #16.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
                                                                      Gordon90N

                                                                      Carl #16.4,

                                                                      Answer to your last question: pretty much for the most part !

                                                                        #16.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 5:36 PM EDT
                                                                        Laura-261470

                                                                        Carl, plenty of people took out subprime mortgages they couldn't afford, so what makes you think those same people are handling their retirement saving any more sensibly? Some people either have no ability to plan ahead or enough insight and attention to detail to understand investing options. In the end, our society doesn't like elderly people to die on the streets, so we will have to cover them somehow. Mandatory plans could help these people -- and hence us. Such plans could allow you to opt out if you have your own savings system in place.

                                                                        With the current economic crisis and its causes, I don't know how you could think that everyone can and will take care of themselves. The proof is in front of us.

                                                                          #16.6 - Tue May 5, 2009 7:15 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          Stan-815449

                                                                          No entity should be more interested in your money/dollar than yourself. If anyone thinks the Government will be looking out for thier best interest, they would be wrong. It seems that people are going to let the Government take control of retirement monies under the guise that "something better" will be the result. Forcing people to put money into treasuries and stocks only supports this house of cards for an indefinate period. People do not yet get it; this country is broke. The only wealth and/or insurance left is the land (natural resources) under our feet, 401K's and assorted investments of private citizens, and our military. The printing press at the Federal Reserve (which is not Federal, which means we do not own it, but do owe due to it!) is not going to help us. Investing in treasuries so that the printing press at the Federal Reserve can crank out limitless dollars is a losing deal (see, China). Our dollar is "backed by the full faith and credit of the Federal Government" of which has little faith and soon will have no credit.....except the funds/wealth of private citizens. Lastly, let me say this: The Government cannot guarantee us anything.

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          Reply#17 - Tue May 5, 2009 12:59 PM EDT
                                                                          Michael-784318

                                                                          I, my, me, mine!! Some people are so into me, they can't dream about we.

                                                                          We're not exactly re-inventing the wheel here when we talk about expanded government pensions.

                                                                          Other coutries have done quite well with national retirement systems and national medical care and on and on. Meanwhile we bend over and let the Oligarchs screw us.

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #17.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:51 PM EDT
                                                                          Stan-815449

                                                                          Dreaming? Exactly how is this going to be paid for? How is the U.S. going to cover 300+ million people with retirement pensions (SS/SSI) and healthcare (Medicaid), much less provide food and reasonable housing? Sure other countries have managed to do this, but these countries have a fraction of total population, and practice sound monetary policy (Norway, for one). Again, the United States is broke. The Government's only ability to operate is by having the "Fed" (again, which is not a Federal entity) print or create dollars via striking of a few keys at a computer. With unemployment figures rising by the week, who will be taxed to pay for these entitlements? Are $25+/hr factory jobs (by the millions) going to return any where in the U.S.? "We the people" of the United States are broke, and the sooner our leaders begin operating on this fact the sooner the citizens eyes will be opened to the fact that this country's standard of living is in decline. And as for the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC) guaranteeing our deposits....well good luck. The numbers (see, trillions) dictate that huge inflation is coming; dollar for dollar vs. inflation, I would rather be paid in roll's of toilet paper than paid off in an inflated currency. Got toilet paper?

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          #17.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
                                                                          Michael-784318

                                                                          It was during the last depression that many of our social programs were initiated. For example, Social Security was initiated by the Roosevelt administration. There wasn't a whole lot of money around, but they did it, and it worked.

                                                                          Population is a relative thing. It's all about priorities. You can either waste your money on the military industrial complex and go off to fight meaningless and costly wars, or you can use the money to pay for programs that help We the people.

                                                                          Norway is a good example of a country that puts the people first instead of the ruling oligarchy. They haven't given away their resources to private thugs. They still get an income from their oil and that helps them to have an incredible quality of life.

                                                                          Again, it's all about priorities. We the people or the oligarchy. Our choice.

                                                                            #17.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 6:41 PM EDT
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            Tim-507825

                                                                            Here's something to think about. I've done some very unscientific research talking to retired people in my yacht club. You'd figure that yacht clubbers would be in the best position to retire off of 401K's, since boaters are usually more financially secure. Here are my results:

                                                                            Most of the retired people I know come from 3 main areas:

                                                                            1. Retired Government workers (including teachers). Not 401K.

                                                                            2. Retired from private companies who offer pensions (Not 401K).

                                                                            3. Real estate investors (who got out before the economic mess.) (Not 401K)

                                                                            No one and I repeat no one that I know has retired off of a 401K. They may have saved up a few thousand dollars or even a couple hundred thousand, but you can't retire off of that. It appears to me that the we have been conned by wall street that the 401K is the way to go. There is nothing wrong with savings, but for most middle class people, there isn't enough money to put away to make it a reality. We need to get our heads out of the sand.

                                                                            Everyone will get older and get to a place in their lives where they will be unable to work. Do we just let the older people starve to death when they haven't been "smart" enough to save enough for retirement? My solutions is the following:

                                                                            1. Change the name of Social Security to ESRI (Economically Sound Retirement Insurance)

                                                                            2. Eliminate the payroll cap. If you make a million dollars a year, pay your fair share.

                                                                            3. Don't eliminate the cap for the business portion. (This should keep business's from whining and also encourage them to keep hiring.)

                                                                            4. Since everyone will be paying their fair share, we will be able to lower the payroll tax percentage, thus my plan is really a TAX DECREASE

                                                                            5. If your retirement income from other sources is over a certain figure (let's say $200,000 just to pick a number), you don't get to collect your retirement insurance. Remember, this is insurance, not a golden parachute. For the priviledge of living in America, you pay your retirement insurance. if you don't like it, go live in Afganistan and try to make your millions there.

                                                                            6. For those rich fat cats that cry about this, you can move somewhere else and see if you build your wealth. If it wasn't for my taxes (and yours) paying for police, fire depts, military, roads, education, hopefully health care, and everything else that society brings, you wouldn't have your riches.

                                                                            7. Decent moral societies take car of their own. I'm not talking about retirement insurance to make everyone wealthy. I'm talking about enough income to eat and put a small roof over your head. I will assume that all Christians will agree with me (and yes, I am Christian).

                                                                            8. Please don't call this socialism unless you think that we should get rid of of our tax paid police (to protect your wealth), tax paid fire depts (to protect your wealth), tax paid military ( to protect your wealth). You see, all of you right wingers actually believe in socialism as long as it's to protect your money. You just don't want to protect normal everyday people. :)

                                                                            Thanks for reading.

                                                                            • 4 votes
                                                                            Reply#18 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
                                                                            Rob Scan

                                                                            So if all the rich fat cats move somewhere else, who will pay for the fire and police departments? It's an acknowledged fact that higher income people pay the majority of the taxes.

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #18.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:21 PM EDT
                                                                            Go USA-851295

                                                                            My inlaws are living on the interest from their 401K accounts savings. They have no debt and have been retired since 1988. So, there are at least two people who are living off their investments made over a lifetime.

                                                                            No matter what you call it, it doesn't change the fact people would be forced to pay into the system. Semantic changes are rarely effective. Regarding the income cap, those who make enough to reach the cap already pay more than their share in Social Security (or ESRI) taxes. So, that part doesn't wash. To set a cap on how much one can make before nullifying their eligibility for participation is to reward those who have not been personally responsible for their retirement.

                                                                            It also doesn't do much for your argument to tell people that if they don't like it, they can leave. This country isn't run that way. You see, reasonable actions are generally the result of thoughtful debate. Your take or leave it mentality smacks of a dictatorship and as of May 5, 2009, the US is still a democratic republic.

                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                            #18.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:24 PM EDT
                                                                            Oldforestor

                                                                            2. Eliminate the payroll cap. If you make a million dollars a year, pay your fair share.

                                                                            OK, I can live with that...do I get my fair share too or is my fair share going to someone else?

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #18.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:36 PM EDT
                                                                            Oldforestor

                                                                            5. If your retirement income from other sources is over a certain figure (let's say $200,000 just to pick a number), you don't get to collect your retirement insurance. Remember, this is insurance, not a golden parachute. For the priviledge of living in America, you pay your retirement insurance. if you don't like it, go live in Afganistan and try to make your millions there.

                                                                            Huh? I pay on my total income, but if Im successful elsewhere I get zero back? On millions of dollars?

                                                                            Wow? Where do you live, Russia?

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #18.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:42 PM EDT
                                                                            Go USA-851295

                                                                            Oldforestor: Those were my concerns as well. This is just another way to "spread the wealth around."

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #18.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:47 PM EDT
                                                                            Laura-261470

                                                                            Sensible post, Tim.

                                                                              #18.6 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:45 PM EDT
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              DrowningGrover

                                                                              Yes, yes. 401k's are the answer. Give your money to wall street, they 'promise' it will be there when you retire, just like all the baby boomers retiring today...

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              Reply#19 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
                                                                              Carl W

                                                                              If somebody retired today with all their money in stocks, they have no excuse for their dumb decisions.

                                                                              Stocks are a good long-term investment, not a short-term investment. If you are retiring very soon, make sure your money is in safer assets. If you are a long way from retiring, buy stocks while they're on sale right now because you have time for the market to rebound.

                                                                              This is not rocket surgery!

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #19.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
                                                                              Laura-261470

                                                                              What if the market DOESN'T rebound? There are a lot of competing forces out there, like growing economies in China and India. We may never have the economic growth here in the US that we had in the past, especially now that we are a debtor nation due to all our recent borrowing (and here I mean not just government borrowing but all the mortgage and credit card borrowing of the average citizen.)

                                                                                #19.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:47 PM EDT
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                LetsBeReasonable

                                                                                You can say that but that doesn't make it true. The government guarantees many financials for it's people. Most famously, deposits up to $100,000. In the past they DID guarantee employer pensions. These were backed by the government and funded by the employer, not the employee.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                Reply#20 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
                                                                                Merrill-387190

                                                                                LetsBeReasonable, you've forgotten that the government guaranteed of pensions doesn't guarantee you'll get the pension you've been counting on. It only guarantees you'll get some percentage of it. All it does is to make it easy for the employer to agree to whatever the union wants. If the employer discovers it cannot perform, it files chapter 11 bankruptcy and hands it to the government.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #20.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:37 PM EDT
                                                                                LetsBeReasonable

                                                                                Not quite. Employees were guaranteed a certain income that would not go below a certain amount when they retired. It was based on position, salary and years of service. Sound familiar? That's pay for performance, dedication and loyalty. Any way certain amount was guaranteed regardless of what happend to the employer.

                                                                                It costs less than the golden parachutes CEOs are getting.

                                                                                  #20.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                  Doug-384925

                                                                                  expand social security

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  Reply#21 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
                                                                                  Pat Wade

                                                                                  No - we don't need a new retirement system - we just need an honest government to administer the social security and financial systems of our country in an unbiased and fair manner.

                                                                                    Reply#22 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
                                                                                    Doug-384925

                                                                                    401ks and IRAs have been decimated, equity in homes is gone, unemployment has forced people to spend their savings. Unless you are lucky enough to have a government or corporate pension, few of us have any retirement savings. This is going to be a serious problem and will be the cover story on national magazines very soon.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    Reply#23 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                                                                    Rob Scan

                                                                                    Doug....there are good times and bad times. During the good times you putsomething away for the bad times. 401k balances will come back....home values will come back....good times and recessions will come again also. Everyone needs to be better prepared and quit expecting the government to bail them out.

                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                    #23.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
                                                                                    btco

                                                                                    Doug - I think you may be correct. There will be huge problems going forward. We need to get our collective heads out of our collective rear ends and put all the options on the table or we will have generations of Americans working til they drop dead on the job, unable to retire.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #23.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:31 PM EDT
                                                                                    Merrill-387190

                                                                                    btco, I think we're already there with Americans working 'till they're dead.

                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                    #23.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:35 PM EDT
                                                                                    btco

                                                                                    Merrill - You have a point, but I am thinking more like when people my age start retiring. I'm 46 - the end of the boomers.

                                                                                    Rob - Personal responsibility is great. I am taking that to heart myself everyday, but there are so many out there who run into hard times or lack the knowledge and skills to properly manage their 401K's that we are going to be in a world of hurt.

                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                    #23.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:52 PM EDT
                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                    sandcreekbeaver-943461

                                                                                    More piles of private money that the big "O" can steal! Maybe Congress can make more money for us by taking over every sector of the economy. How is our "investment" in Chrysler, GM, AIG, BOA and others looking? Great!!! Go Green!! Buy a Pelosi-mobile at your local government dealer!! Thanks for flushing our hopes and dreams down the toilet Democrats.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    Reply#24 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:28 PM EDT
                                                                                    LetsBeReasonable

                                                                                    Rob Scan - the key to your logic will only work if we had a crystal ball and could predict exactly when this would happen. This is what is wrong with 401K plans.

                                                                                    We need to get back to employer funded pensions guaranteed by the government.

                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                    Reply#25 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:29 PM EDT
                                                                                    Go USA-851295

                                                                                    Why should the government guarantee these plans? It is not the government's responsibility. Getting older is something those of us live long enough know will happen. Prepare for it yourself.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #25.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:31 PM EDT
                                                                                    Merrill-387190

                                                                                    Yea, guaranteed by the government. That's a great idea. Like they're doing such a great job of managing things now. Just ask those folks, who have their 401K invested in GM stock. All their value is being handed to the UAW.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #25.2 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:33 PM EDT
                                                                                    LetsBeReasonable

                                                                                    Go USA - we are the government and it is our responsibiity to take care of those who can not take care of themselves, which among other groups, is the elderly. Those of us under 65 do take care of the elderly by contributing to the Medicare and Social Security insurance pools.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #25.3 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:36 PM EDT
                                                                                    Go USA-851295

                                                                                    I understand the workings of how Medicare and Social Security are financed. My point is that it is high time for people to start taking care of themselves and to stop relying on the government, read taxpayers for everything needed in life. We are taxed enough as it is.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #25.4 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
                                                                                    LetsBeReasonable

                                                                                    I believe most people do take care of themselves and do not rely on others. We have one of the lowest tax burdens in the world and the most to show for it in terms of the quality public and social progams we have.

                                                                                      #25.5 - Tue May 5, 2009 2:10 PM EDT
                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                      Bob-1081788

                                                                                      I'd be satisfied if the fees charged by all the 401K funds were transparent. The 401K investment firms lobbyists are totally in bed with Congress and any other body that has regularoty power. Investors don't have a clue about the substantial and massive fees being deducted from their funds.

                                                                                        Reply#26 - Tue May 5, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                                                                                        Carl W

                                                                                        Companies are required to let you know where your money is going for retirement.

                                                                                        If you don't bother to research the mutual funds that's your choice. The information is free on the internet!

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #26.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 3:13 PM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
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