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Upfront costs complicate Obama's health care plan

Sun May 10, 2009 7:58 AM EDT
business, politics, health, us, barack-obama, cost, overhaul
Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, Associated Press
< PreviousNext >
showing 1 of 3 photos
<p>FILE - In this Oct. 2, 2007 file photo, Sen. Michael Enzi, R-Wyo, ranking Republican on the Senate Health, Education Labor and Pensions Committee, takes part in the committee's hearing on Capitol Hill in Washington. Costs are emerging as the biggest obstacle for President Barack Obama's ambitious plan to provide health insurance for everybody. (AP Photo/Lawrence Jackson, FILE)</p>

FILE - In this Oct. 2, 2007 file photo, Sen. Michael Enzi, R-Wyo, ranking Republican on the Senate Health, Education Labor and Pensions Committee, takes part in the committee's hearing on Capitol Hill in Washington. Costs are emerging as the biggest obstacle for President Barack Obama's ambitious plan to provide health insurance for everybody. (AP Photo/Lawrence Jackson, FILE)

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WASHINGTON — Costs are emerging as the biggest obstacle to President Barack Obama's ambitious plan to provide health insurance for everybody.

The upfront tab could reach $1.2 trillion to $1.5 trillion over 10 years, while expected savings from wringing waste and inefficiency from the health care system may take longer to show.

Details of the health legislation have not been written, but the broad outlines of the overhaul are known. Economists and other experts say the $634 billion that Obama's budget sets aside for health care will pay perhaps half the cost.

Obama is hoping the Senate comes up with a bipartisan compromise that would give him political cover for disagreeable decisions to raise more money, such as taxing some health insurance benefits. In the 2008 campaign, Obama went after his Republican presidential rival, Arizona Sen. John McCain, for proposing a large-scale version of that idea.

Concerns about costs could spill over in the coming week when the Senate Finance Committee holds a hearing on how to pay for coverage. Committee leaders hoping to have a bill before the full Senate this summer must first convince their own members that it won't break the bank.

"You go to a town meeting and people are talking about bailout fatigue," said Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore. "They like the president. They think he's a straight shooter. But they are concerned about the amount of money that is heading out the door, and the debts their kids are going to have to absorb."

Sen. Mike Enzi, R-Wyo., said cost control has to come ahead of getting more people covered. "Unless we halt skyrocketing health care costs, any attempt to expand coverage will be financially unsustainable," he said.

Obama wants to build on the current system in which employers, government and individuals share responsibility for health care. He says his plan would make health insurance more affordable, particularly for small businesses and individuals. The government would subsidize coverage for low-income people and some in the middle class.

The U.S. spends about $2.5 trillion a year on health care, more than any other advanced country. Experts estimate that at least one-third of that spending goes for services that provide little or no benefit to patients. So theoretically, there's enough money in the system to cover everybody, including an estimated 50 million uninsured.

But one person's wasteful spending is someone else's bread and butter.

The office visits, tests, procedures and medications that the experts question represent a lot of money for doctors, hospitals, drug companies and other service providers. Dialing them back won't be easy. Providers will resist. Patients might complain their care is getting rationed.

The chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Sen. Max Baucus, said "it's clear that the financing of this is not going to be easy." Baucus, D-Mont., says the basic approach to health care must become more economically efficient.

Instead of paying doctors and hospitals for the number of services they provide, as happens now, Baucus wants to tie reimbursement to the quality of care. Quality would measured by standards that doctors and hospitals have a hand in shaping.

Yet those kinds of changes take time, several years or even the better part of a decade.

The money to cover the uninsured will be needed right away, about $125 billion to $150 billion a year.

That leaves hard choices for lawmakers and Obama.

Baucus favors requiring individuals to get health insurance, which will help. But he also supports subsidies for people who can't afford coverage — a cost to the government.

To help close the money gap, Baucus is open to some limits on the current tax-free treatment of employer-provided health insurance.

Health benefits are considered part of an employee's compensation, but are not taxed. If all health insurance were taxed like regular income, the government could raise an additional $250 billion a year.

In the campaign, Obama opposed tampering with tax-free employer-based health care, saying it would undermine the system that delivers coverage to most people. Other prominent Democrats agree. Asked if he would support taxing benefits, Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., the top tax-writer in the House, simply said: "No way!"

Baucus says doing away with the tax break altogether would cause harm, but some limitations might curb waste in the system. Obama's aides say he's still opposed, but willing to consider any serious proposals from Congress.

Obama's opposition to taxing employer-provided health insurance isn't the only campaign position he might have to jettison to pay for health care.

He once criticized his chief Democratic presidential rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton, for proposing that everyone in the U.S. be required to have medical insurance. Yet such a mandate probably will be in what Congress puts together because requiring individuals to pay would lower federal costs.

For Obama, there are no easy ways to pay for health care. Options include raising other taxes, cutting deeply into Medicare payments to providers, or phasing in the expansion of coverage for the uninsured — beyond his four-year term.

___

Associated Press writer Erica Werner contributed to this report.

___

On the Net:

Senate Finance Committee: http://finance.senate.gov/

White House health care agenda: http://www.healthreform.gov

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (58)
Michael the Great

As long as there is a 3rd party payer system, the price will NEVER be under control. The guy recieving the service must be the guy paying for it, otherwise there is no incentive for the recipient to use restraint while shopping for services.

The solution to get prices under control is not to insure everyone. The solution would be to outlaw insurance.

There would be no more $200 office visits, because doctors would have no patients. $500 a month prescription medicine would be gone too, since no one would buy it.

THAT would get prices under control quickly.

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Sun May 10, 2009 8:21 AM EDT
JoulesBeef

nah
insurance was better when it was non profffit.
prices come down with rules and regulations.
and of course that non proffit part.

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:32 AM EDT
Eric AlbertDeleted
Simplistic Reality

Model after Germany's / Swiss Healthcare program where everyone is covered and well do okay. We as a nation will actually save money overall and the long run, yet everyone is covered crazy I know. Obama's just blew trillions of dollars.... whats a few more?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundamerica/view/

Watch these two programs free online for an eye opener. I bet you won't think the same after it. Its a reality check that I think most American's don't really understand....

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Sun May 10, 2009 12:51 PM EDT
Reply
DARKESTDONNIE

Upfront costs complicate Obama's health care plan

Ya think, Da..........and maybe the fact you will get crappy health-care to boot! With decisions made by an accountant.

  • 6 votes
#2 - Sun May 10, 2009 10:21 AM EDT
LIAMD

Look at how well bean counting has done for our industries. High unemployment, devalued real estate, crushed retirement accounts. And some people want this mentality to run our health care system?

WTF is wrong with people. Name one instance of the government solving a problem. Their solutions generally come with a myriad of new problems that make the original problem look non-existent.

Also, please show me where in the Constitution it gives the government job/responsibility/right to mange and fund health care?

  • 7 votes
#2.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:27 AM EDT
JoulesBeef

yeah @!$%#ing health care is awesome now right.
we pay 8 tiems as much as anyone else and our life expectancy is one of the lowest of the non third world countries.

anyways you constant bs about how crappy health care will be, has been debunked many many times and not just by "sicko"
sure american has the greatest health care on the planet. if your rich or a congressman. for the rest of us, it is pretty damn substandard.

  • 3 votes
#2.2 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
unit12medic

Our life expectancy is not ranked 39th lowest, the overall medical system/delivery of care was ranked as 39th in the world.

  • 1 vote
#2.3 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:38 AM EDT
JoulesBeef

it's actually 45th
life expectancy by country check out the cia page of each of the top 10-20 countries.. if no info on healthcare check out the wiki of the country. tell me what country with a longer life expectancy doesnt have some sort of gov provided health care.

peopel have a longer life expectancy in jordon and israel.

this is not mortality rates, but life expectancy but judging by your nick i suspect you know this

  • 2 votes
#2.4 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:43 AM EDT
unit12medic

USA 45th in life expectancy.

#1 Macau 84.3 years

Courtesy of wiki and the CIA factbook

  • 1 vote
#2.5 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:47 AM EDT
JoulesBeef

of course some can be attributed to diet and culture but not all of it.

  • 2 votes
#2.6 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:58 AM EDT
unit12medic

LOL! That was funny.

Yes I work in the medical profession, and if any group of people know that the system is broken it is us. The JAMA released a poll last year showing that a majority of doctors have come to realise that universal coverage is necessary. This was a change from just a couple of years before when the majority were against universal coverage.

  • 2 votes
#2.7 - Sun May 10, 2009 12:00 PM EDT
LIAMD

doctors have come to realise that universal coverage is necessary

OK, I'll ask again, where is it in the governments charter to provide health care?

I don't care what our world rank is the stats are crap now matter how they are parsed. There is no other country of comparable size and affluence to compare to.

How does living to 83 help when you are incontinent, riddled with dementia and incapable of self care. The few that have quality of life at 80 would regardless of health care as it is more a function of genetics and lifestyle.

The reality is health care is available to all. What people are crying about is equal access regardless of income. Which quite frankly is crap. That is also no where in the Constitution.

  • 2 votes
#2.8 - Sun May 10, 2009 7:27 PM EDT
unit12medic

Ok the age thing was just fun. And there is absolutely nothing in the constitution about government providing health care. There is actually very little in the constitution outside of securing the basic liberties we enjoy and delineating the powers of each branch of government. So where does that leave us? Do we ignore the system in place and let it continue to implode? Do we keep funding low income people with health coverage, but not the working class who are paying taxes, but can not afford to get sick? Where do we draw the line?

I am here for dialogue and ideas. You can rest assured I will be bugging the crap out of my reps in congress with ideas from here. Put some out here on the table.

  • 1 vote
#2.9 - Sun May 10, 2009 10:23 PM EDT
DARKESTDONNIE

Do ignore the system in place and let continue to implode?

233 years later no implode yet! hmmmm

  • 1 vote
#2.10 - Sun May 10, 2009 10:30 PM EDT
LIAMD

unit,

First, I do not want to see people suffer. Now the but. It is not my job, nor my responsibility to pay for the government to overstep it's constitutional authority, period.

Second, the fix is easy. Why is that my health care provider only pays pennies of what is actually charged by the physician or hospital but those without the negotiating power of a health plan have to pay full price. Let's fix that. While I do not under any circumstances feel the government should pay for or manage health care, unfair business practices are something else entirely. If my PPO only has to pay 20% of the billable amount than that is all anyone should pay.

Third, make it illegal to advertise drugs as the common man has no ability or basic knowledge base to have any clue as to how to treat their health conditions and should not be telling any medical professional what they should be taking. An educated consumer has many sources available to research treatment options. 30 second ads have no benifit. This would cut millions in drug comapny costs. Second, since we the tax payers pay for most of the drug discovery through NIH grants to University's this BS that drug company's need to recoup R&D costs is pure bunk. Also, supplying third world countries in not our job either. If the drug company chooses to be charitable, good for them. If I want to donate to provide drugs to them good for me, but it should be my choice not forced on me through disproportionate business practices, again here is where the government can act.

There are a couple easy fixes to make health care more affordable to everyone and Uncle Sam does not have to become our nanny.

  • 2 votes
#2.11 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:21 PM EDT
Linda Luke

Your government has it's nose in a lot of things that it shouldn't. That will continue. As say so by the American people barely exists, if it did, there would never have been bail-outs of banks, insurance, and corporations.

    #2.12 - Mon May 11, 2009 8:43 AM EDT
    LIAMD

    Your government has it's nose in a lot of things that it shouldn't. That will continue. As say so by the American people barely exists, if it did, there would never have been bail-outs of banks, insurance, and corporations.

    Agreed and I was against all of those points as well. I want my government to stick to the Constitution and leave the day to day stuff to the people. Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness is not a guarantee of anything only the right to try to succeed based on your merits. Now when people use coercion, monopoly's etc. to stop these pursuits then the government should and can act. But in the last 20-30 years they have gone down paths that are merely for political expediency and not the welfare of the country. Both parties and all most all politicians are guilty.

    Total term limits would help fix this, i.e. 10 years service combined then you're done go back to work like the rest of the country, opps like 85% of the country due to the bad polices coming out of DC and capitals across the country.

    • 1 vote
    #2.13 - Mon May 11, 2009 9:44 AM EDT
    unit12medic

    I was referring to tho the health care system, not the US as a whole.

    LIAMD

    I really do agree with most everything that you say. The perfect solutiuon would be for the govt to get out of health care, and bail outs, and numerous other things where they do not belong. The reality is that is never going to happen. With the advent of social security and medicare, American's began to feel entitled. This has spread like a disease over the years to the point where the overwhelming majority of Americans feel this way. Not always about the same things, but at least the same feeling of being owed by the govt. This is something that I have no idea how to change.

    But back to health care, the problem is like I pointed out about the underinsured. There are a great number of middle class (and higher) families that have insurance, but the premiums, deductibles, and co-pays are so high that they might as well not have any. These same people are paying taxes that they see get funneled into health care programs for the uninsured that, by and large, are not paying taxes. Everything they pay from their premiums to their taxes are influenced by the group that puts in the least and winds costing more (on average). This cycle is what is dragging the system down and giving the vast majority of hard working Americans the feeling that they are entitled to health care.

    Couple this with the fact that if a hospital or doctor were to NOT see someone and that person became more sick or died, of even something totally unrelated, that hospital and doctor are going to be sued and more than likely settle to avoid a loss. That isn't right either, but it is the reality of today's society.

    I would love to see the feds pack it in, and reduce the gvt three-fold or greater. Let the states conduct business as they see fit for their people. Just don't see it happening.

    • 2 votes
    #2.14 - Mon May 11, 2009 2:40 PM EDT
    LIAMD

    I would love to see the feds pack it in, and reduce the gvt three-fold or greater. Let the states conduct business as they see fit for their people. Just don't see it happening.

    Well the only hope is to be active and vote for politicians which at least give some inkling to reducing government. Granted neither party seems to be on our side in this regard.

    The other side is your personal sphere on influence, not exhibiting an entitlement mentality and pointing it out in your friends is a good way to start to reverse this social cancer.

    As far as health care goes, we have to keep fighting for reforms and fight against government control.

      #2.15 - Mon May 11, 2009 3:18 PM EDT
      Reply
      Xerxes-727854

      So, Universal Health Care will be another of Obama's campaign promises he will break.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#3 - Sun May 10, 2009 10:23 AM EDT
      JoulesBeef

      no
      how is that
      it's a promisse to try and all that, but when there are 500 people in congress and you need 251 of their votes. well it is up to more peopel than obama.

      you can say it was one of his promises he failed to deliver on, but not a promise broken.
      a promise is not pbroken if you try to fullfill it but due to actions that are not your own you do not succeed.. that is simply failure.

      • 2 votes
      #3.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:36 AM EDT
      Xerxes-727854

      it's a promisse to try and all that, but when there are 500 people in congress and you need 251 of their votes. well it is up to more peopel than obama.

      The Democrats hold the majority of both Houses of Congress. If Obama can't persuade them, should this not count against Obama?

      you can say it was one of his promises he failed to deliver on, but not a promise broken.

      So it will just the Democrats who broke a promise. Not Obama.

      a promise is not pbroken if you try to fullfill it but due to actions that are not your own you do not succeed.. that is simply failure.

      A president who can't persuade people of his own party is not a failure?

      • 1 vote
      #3.2 - Sun May 10, 2009 12:23 PM EDT
      LIAMD

      A president who can't persuade people of his own party is not a failure?

      Then what is he?

      • 1 vote
      #3.3 - Sun May 10, 2009 7:36 PM EDT
      Reply
      bluecollarbytes

      As some professional Obamaphiles have suggested, and as Obama has already practiced, simply pass the thing and worry about details details Later.

      I expect Obama to push through Everything he ever mentioned, plus much more. There is No end, no natural, financial or ideological boundary to our Leftward march.

      I expect Obama and his Democrats to seek control and power over anything they can get their mitts on: Food, Transportation, Housing, Education(including, eventually, All home schooling), the airwaves {all), employment, business, entrepreneurship, and yes....even the 'holy grail' of free thought-the internet.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#4 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
      JoulesBeef

      yeah unliek the great and wonderful gop..
      you remember the gop that wouldnt even let us discuss bills before shoving them down our throats.
      we couldnt even pass extesions to anything.
      the wonderful ideological gop.. the ones that have started two wars both lasting longer than wwII. and not payign for it at all, instead gave two rounds of tax cuts to the richest of us, desimating the government surpluses
      awesome ideology there blue
      but i knwo that is war and tax cuts and this is differnt right.
      well what about no child left behind.. huge gov program, no funding.
      medicare plan d(this will rival medicare, and ss in about 50 years as one of the big three things that bankrupted us) no funding.. wow thanks gop your ideology is so great we should look up to it.
      heck it looks like obama is.
      realid, no funding.. most of homeland
      security at the state level.. no funding.

      oh yeah and yall allowed sooooooo mucnh free thog uth under bush.
      arrestign war protestors an dputting them on terrorist watch lists.
      wow can i join the gop again.
      yall are just the bastions of everythign that is right.
      and yall had absolteuly no hand in the meltdown.
      must be nice.

      • 2 votes
      #4.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:31 AM EDT
      Reply
      unit12medic

      Let me repost this here. Maybe it will help shed some light on the complexity of the situation.....

      I would like to think that people are beginning to realize the complexity of the situation now. This is not something that the congress or the president can simply wave a magic wand over and *POOF* everyone has insurance.

      First the reimbursement rates have to sorted out. Too low, and many doctors and hospitals will opt out of accepting it; too high and we as a society will never be abble to pay for it. What about medications? Co-pays? For which groups? No copays for meds for children and seniors and limited copays for everyone else, no more than $15 to $20 per med is my favorite flavor of the week.

      Funding this???? Hmmmm. Well now we're looking at tax reform. The current system just plain sucks! Excuse the vernacular, but the IRS and the US tax code are proof positive of the existence of pure evil! Had to get that out. But we can not pay for universal care the way the tax system is right now. My choice is a flat tax in the 12 to 15% range which from what I've read would more than suffice. Not to mention the sheer joy that the vast majority of Americans will feel when the BEAST that is known as the IRS is dismantled. The savings from that alone will probably pay for a good portion of the healthcare!!! As I was saying though, repeal the other taxes, especially the inheritance tax (this is just plain WRONG!), use the flat tax with NO LOOPHOLES. Everyone pays the same flat percentage. We would only need a handful of people to handle all of the paperwork! Hopefully this would lead to other tax reform especially at the state and local levels where sales and property taxes have sky rocketed!

      Another part of this puzzle is tort reform. There most definitely needs to be some especially in dealings with medicine. I know that getting a legislative body consisting of mostly attorneys to pass legislation limiting their own livlihood is beyond hope, but it is vital to the success of health care reform. As a personal note, I was seated on a jury in a malpractice case. The complaintant was sueing the doctor for not using enough anesthesia. Seriously, some Joe Blow off of the street decided that he did not receive enough "juice" and wanted some money. Yes we need tort reform desperately!

      As for the insurance companies, most of them have been around for a great number of years, predating the current health system. They insured things such as homes, farms, cars, businesses, and ships for years with very nice profits. I am more than confident that they will find a way to continue make profits without the hassle and headache of managing all of the various HMO, PPO, Managed care, whatever else they call them health plans.

      There will also need to be a shift in the healthcare industry as well. More community and preventative health measures. Utilising physician extenders where ever possible (Physician Assistants, Nurse Practioners, Remote Duty Paramedics). Establishing EMS as a "Third Service" as a comprehensive part of the health care system (not fire department budget boosters and private companies gouging the medicare/medicaid system), the increased use of community clinics over the emergency departments, the ability of EDs to triage people out to see their doctor or clinic (can't do this without tort reform!).

      Well there are the major considerations to getting this thing up and running. Of course that's assuming that the honest and caring representatives in Washington pay attention to any of this and not the sounds coming from the lobbiest.

      Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That last part kills me!

      • 1 vote
      Reply#5 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
      JoulesBeef

      make them non proffit like they used to be.. it wil be affordible once again.

      • 2 votes
      #5.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
      unit12medic

      I honestly don't know about that. It sounds feasible at least as short term solution until everything else can be sorted out.

      • 1 vote
      #5.2 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:51 AM EDT
      Reply
      Linda Luke

      There is an answer to all this, look around at the world we live in, not just the United States and see what is working. For instance in Equador no written prescriptions are needed and medicine can be gotten from a pharmacist. Very efficient and lowers the cost of medicines. Reduces visits to doctors for non emergency healthcare. The fact that we as adults have to get permission from a doctor to treat an infection, the flu, a cough, an upset stomach, a tooth ache, is insanity.

      Regulations for insurance companies needs to exist. I remember back in the 70's when health insurance covered all costs and there was not such a thing as co-payments. Insurance costs are way out of hand not only for individuals but for the doctors themselves. We maybe need some non-profit businesses to get involved to reduce costs.

      If our government wasn't so bribed by businesses with lobbyiests, maybe that alone would reduce costs.

      Educations costs need to be reduced also. This would in turn help reduce the cost of healthcare.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#6 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
      JoulesBeef

      yeah
      are you a doctor?
      you do know that drug interactions are one of the biggest killers in the us?
      so you knwo that drug for your thyroid doesnt effect that drug your taking for an infection?

      • 1 vote
      #6.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
      steve-686481

      Here is some food for thought. Unit12Medic, maybe you can add some validity to this or not.

      Everyone agrees our healthcare system is in serious trouble. But how much of this is the result of huge demographic changes in our populations? Seems to me we have an inverted bell curve with regard to healthcare needs: 1) aging populations and 2) increase in poverty level population (both legal and illegal). These 2 segments historically have used a disproportionate share of health care services.

      My question is if we move to a single payor system at the very time when demand for services is about to peak, is there any realistic way to pay for this?

      By the way the same analogy holds for Social Security.

      Both rely on a pyramid structure to survive over the long run.

        #6.2 - Sun May 10, 2009 12:34 PM EDT
        Linda Luke

        Well JoulesBeef, seems you are telling me that drug interactions are happening right now in the system that we have and killing people, so I guess the system we have doesn't prevent drug interactions either.

          #6.3 - Sun May 10, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
          unit12medic

          The answer to your question Steve is yes, to a degree. The aging Boomer generation is nearly twice as large as the generation behind it. That alone is stressing the system. The illegal immigrants/poverty level stress the system in another manner. They are part of the un/underinsured. And quite frankly this group extends way up into the middle class, so it really isn't truly about poverty as much as being underinsured. No one in the US is denied health care (although I can hear the arguments now), and one reason everything in healthcare is so expensive is because the providers have to cover the losses generated by the uninsured and underinsured. There are huge write-offs on bills that providers know will never get paid. They are also aware that they can only recoup a percentage from insurance, so the price goes up in order for the covered percentage to actually cover the price of doing business.

          This is a very intricate problem where a vast number of items are entwined. I am as a rule not in favor of government doing anything aside from protecting us and taking care of the roads, but working in the medical field and witnessing firsthand what is going on, there is no other way I know of to help correct the system. Everyone points to Europe and while some systems work better than others, they are all stretched to the max right now. If you know any Europeans ask about the condition of their roads and schools. This is a huge gripe that I hear all of the time. There isn't enough money to repair, nuch less buiold new schools and roads because everything goes to healthcare and otehr social welfar benefits. The other thing to consider is the size of the US compared to countries you're talking about. When we do this, it make more sense for the states to handle this, as the size comparisons are much more in line with Europe.

          I guess my point is this: it is complicated. Shouting, screaming, and calling each other names is not going to help resolve it. And without any real pressure from us, the citizens, congress is going to continue to take their bribes and not fix anything. That is the one thing you can count on.

          • 1 vote
          #6.4 - Sun May 10, 2009 8:36 PM EDT
          Reply
          JoulesBeef

          w/e
          we have huge money fighting us on this and they will fight hard.
          the gop thinks this will destroy their party as it will bring compassion to the states. They think health care is why europe is so liberal.

          and thier are trillions of dollars to be made in keeping status quo.
          from all the useless crap the hospitals give you when they find out you have insurance, to the health decisions being made by a proffit motive.

          you know just a couple decades ago, insurance and hospitals were all non proffit.Insurance companies didnt give doctors BONUSES TO NOT do procedures.
          they were given a license to rape us years ago and they have been raping us for decades.
          we pay 8 times the adverage cost of health care on the planet and yet we are somethign like 39th in life expectancy and every country in the top ten has gov provided health care.

          Sure if you have a ton of money this doesnt matter, but personally i'd like to live a few years longer with my family and pay 8 times less than the system we have got now.,

          • 2 votes
          Reply#7 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:23 AM EDT
          unit12medic

          Joules just look up at my first posting. That's a lot of stuff and it's only the tip of the iceberg. You can't fix the healthcare system without fixing a few other things first. It just can't be done. And as far as party bashing one over the other, that's useless because a politician is a politician, is a politician. They are all in the pockets of someone other than the people, rest assured of that.

          • 1 vote
          #7.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:31 AM EDT
          JoulesBeef

          no doubt but i also reconise obstruction when i see it.
          Obama is going to piss off everyone.. which is good.. it's not his job to be popular.
          the thing is we cant contineu to pass theses potatoes down the line.
          and every politicians untilk obam has done just that.
          our recession right now is nothing at all compared to health care and how that wil bankrupt this country.
          both sides admit it.
          medicare and such is unsubstainible
          but both sides would rather wait until it goes completely bankrupt to do anythign about it.
          cause your going to have to cut benefits(which is going to piss off dems)
          and raise taxes( which is going to piss off goprs)
          but to do nothign at this time.. or to do the little fixes you speak of, will leave this completly undone until it goes bankrupt.
          cause a poltician is a politican is a politican but atleast obama is trying.

          • 2 votes
          #7.2 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:41 AM EDT
          unit12medic

          I just feel that Obama is not really much different than any of the other politicians up there. I mean telling congress to geive me something to sign is good for the press releases and sound bites, but how about sending something to congress, like a framework of how to do this. That to me would truly be leading change, not just giving it lip service.

          • 1 vote
          #7.3 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:55 AM EDT
          Xerxes-727854

          JoulesBee,

          we have huge money fighting us on this and they will fight hard.

          Like ambulance-chasing lawyers who are opposing tort reform.

          the gop thinks this will destroy their party as it will bring compassion to the states. They think health care is why europe is so liberal.

          Ask anybody who has used the European and the American health care systems which do they prefer.

          BTW, who gets the lion's share of the political donations of these ambulance-chasing lawyers? Hint: its not the Republicans.

          from all the useless crap the hospitals give you when they find out you have insurance, to the health decisions being made by a proffit motive.

          Wrong. "all the useless crap" are done as part of "defensive" medicine so no heat-seeking lawyer can sue the hospitals for "negligence".

          you know just a couple decades ago, insurance and hospitals were all non proffit.Insurance companies didnt give doctors BONUSES TO NOT do procedures.
          they were given a license to rape us years ago and they have been raping us for decades.

          I dunno about hospitals but since when has the insurance industry been non-profit? Like any other business, the insurance industry is there to make a profit. You have a problem with that?

          we pay 8 times the adverage cost of health care on the planet

          Because we have to pay top dollar for our doctors and nurses. It is no secret that the best doctors and nurses come here to the US because they not only get paid more, they get to keep more of their money after taxes. You get what you pay for.

          and yet we are somethign like 39th in life expectancy and every country in the top ten has gov provided health care.

          A major factor in life expectancy is diet. Food is so cheap here in the US (compared to disposable income) that we are overeating ourselves to death. Go to Europe and check how much food there costs.

          Despite our overeating, the average life expectancy of the US is only 8 or so months less than that of the EU!

          BTW, if gov't provided health care is so great, how come the well-to-do Canadians come here for our health care?

          Sure if you have a ton of money this doesnt matter, but personally i'd like to live a few years longer with my family and pay 8 times less than the system we have got now.,

          Exercise regularly, don't eat too much, stay in shape, don't smoke, drink moderately, etc. are keys to a longer life.

            #7.4 - Sun May 10, 2009 3:58 PM EDT
            Reply
            unit12medic

            Yes, there were some hearings last year I think, about giving pharmacists teh ability to sell certain prescription meds without a prescription from a doctor. The list would have been limited to medications that have been available for a great number of years and are all relatively safe. The doctors came out in full force against this, hence it never made it out of committee. The funny part about this whole thing is a pharmacist is a Doctor of Pharmacology. Oh well, business as usual.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#8 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:25 AM EDT
            Xerxes-727854

            unit12medic,

            The funny part about this whole thing is a pharmacist is a Doctor of Pharmacology

            I have nothing but the highest respect for pharmacists but they are not medical doctors.

              #8.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 4:04 PM EDT
              LIAMD

              I have nothing but the highest respect for pharmacists but they are not medical doctors.

              No, but quite frankly they are smarter. And it is a PhD. in pharmacology who tells doctors how to prescribe and what the interactions are not MD's.

              • 1 vote
              #8.2 - Sun May 10, 2009 7:38 PM EDT
              Reply
              unit12medic

              1

              • 1 vote
              Reply#9 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
              JoulesBeef

              Step one
              take away the insurance of Sen. Michael Enzi and the rest of congress.
              and make them pay for healthcare like we do.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#10 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:37 AM EDT
              unit12medic

              Finally, we agree!

              • 3 votes
              #10.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 11:40 AM EDT
              Reply
              Rixar13

              I've been advocating for health care for Americans who decide 1) Do I go to the Doctor 2) Do I just go to work sick because I just can't afford it and my kids and family must eat.

              The U.S. spends about $2.5 trillion a year on health care, more than any other advanced country. Experts estimate that at least one-third of that spending goes for services that provide little or no benefit to patients.

              at least one-third of that spending goes for services that provide little or no benefit to patients.

              Perhaps it's time to shave down insurance company profits with their minimum wage denial clerks.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#11 - Sun May 10, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
              LIAMD

              Perhaps it's time to shave down insurance company profits with their minimum wage denial clerks.

              So, you are on board with deciding who should make what. What do you think will happen to the denial rates once Uncle Sam is paying the bill for everyone. Now you'll have nitwit bureaucrats who know absolutely nothing of value deciding whether or not you can get non-standard treatment. Sounds like a fair trade (sarcasm).

              • 2 votes
              #11.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 7:42 PM EDT
              unit12medic

              In all honesty medicare is a superb system speaking from the collections side of the house. It is fast and it's reasonable. Probably the most efficient govt program ever (EXCLUDING the presc drug plan, that was a screw up as written)

              • 2 votes
              #11.2 - Sun May 10, 2009 8:42 PM EDT
              Reply
              Lampell

              There are already government agencies in existense that can be used to expand health coverage, Medicaid, Healthy Families etc. Build on that to cover everyone. Unfortunately most Americans dont want to pay higher taxes to pay for European style healthcare systems. Without mandating everyone to have insurance the system wont work. Contrary to popular opinions many "Single payor" systems in Europe are not single payor systems. Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlends have insurance companies providing insurance but they are highly regulated. In countries like the U.K. where there are single payor systems they are going downhill and most people are forced to purchase supplemental insurance to cover what the government is not covering, which is substantial. There also seems to be a trend happening where everyone is against companies and people that make "gasp" a profit. Doctors and hospitals make a profit since most hospitals are private. If you want to control costs, nationalize the hospitals so that the old communtiy hospital is really the community hospital. If drug companies dont make a profit there goes new drugs. It cost a fortune to come out with new drugs. There are only 2 countries in the world that allow TV advertising for prescription drugs, U.S. and New Zealand. Take those ads off the air and maybe the price might come down. You want cheaper drugs like in Canada? Then pay higher taxes!. There is nothing wrong with higher taxes but Americans want the care but dont want to pay for it. We all want coverage but dont want to be told that we have to have it.

                Reply#12 - Sun May 10, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
                Xerxes-727854

                Lampell,

                Unfortunately most Americans dont want to pay higher taxes to pay for European style healthcare systems.

                European-style health care is also highly rationed. You need an MRI? Go back to the end of the line and wait for a few months.

                In countries like the U.K. where there are single payor systems they are going downhill and most people are forced to purchase supplemental insurance to cover what the government is not covering, which is substantial.

                Gee, so the Brits are not only being taxed 50% or more on their income, they have to purchase supplemental insurance with their after-tax pounds! What a great system the Brits have! <sarcasm>

                There also seems to be a trend happening where everyone is against companies and people that make "gasp" a profit. Doctors and hospitals make a profit since most hospitals are private.

                Doctors and hospitals have to make a profit otherwise they will need bailouts from the government.

                If you want to control costs, nationalize the hospitals so that the old communtiy hospital is really the community hospital.

                Aside from taking over Chrysler, GM, the banks, you want the government to nationalize the hospitals too? This is the same government that can't control our borders by the way.

                If drug companies dont make a profit there goes new drugs. It cost a fortune to come out with new drugs.

                Correct.

                There are only 2 countries in the world that allow TV advertising for prescription drugs, U.S. and New Zealand. Take those ads off the air and maybe the price might come down.

                Wrong. Advertisements only constitute a small portion of a drug's cost. What is so wrong about informing citizens about prescription drugs anyway?

                You want cheaper drugs like in Canada? Then pay higher taxes!. There is nothing wrong with higher taxes but Americans want the care but dont want to pay for it. We all want coverage but dont want to be told that we have to have it.

                The government-provided health care in Canada is so good that Canadians who can afford it head south for our health care. So, even in Canada, you have a two-tiered system: American health care for the rich and Canadian health care for those who are not.

                  #12.1 - Sun May 10, 2009 4:19 PM EDT
                  Lampell

                  Actually I was being a bit sarcastic when I suggested the government running hospitals. Aint going to happen. Also I lived and worked overseas and believe me I know how the system works( or doesnt work) The problem with advertising drugs is that they are Brand name drugs which cost a lot more than generic. You wouldnt believe how many people call their doctors after seeing an ad.

                    #12.2 - Thu May 21, 2009 3:40 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    Noel-480385

                    When Doctors are allowed to get away with over-billing and no one stops them it only makes setting up the system more difficult.Honest practices that charge accordingly see that their not making the same as the dishonest and greed takes over.Its not the patients fault its the system allows them to provide higher cost care and tests that are not always in the patients best interest it encourages fraud and deception across the field.Until a standard charge for tests,lab fees,consultations,services is put in place the systems reform wont work.Its now rampid with unscrupulous practices working the allowed services to increase profit not the wellness of the patient, if he dies or has a hard time recovering so be it if the insurance pays the bill.I'mnot saying that all doctors are involved its that to many of these type of offices exist.They justify it because of the high cost of insurance.If they all got the same rate of reimbursements,but had more paying customers,and limits on malpractice awards.I believe the cost could be contained.They are entitled to a fair pay for there services, we are entitled to not be abused as patients.The current system sucks.It must be reformed.Its going to take a hard line stand to clean up and rid the system of abuse that has been allowed to prevail.Until you experience this its hard to imagine that in our most vurnerable times we are treated by some as a way to work our illness for their own finical gain.

                      Reply#13 - Sun May 10, 2009 1:26 PM EDT
                      unit12medic

                      The real culprit for over testing is the court system. Providers are forced to practice "defensive" medicine, as in defense against lawsuits. The best explanation of this I can give you is like this and it is true story...

                      A person showed up at the ermegency department stating he had come down hard on it while playing ball. He heard a popping sound and has had pain ever since (couple of hours). He gets xrayed, examined, and discharged home with instructions to follow up. His diagnosis was noted as a right ankle sprain/strain. In reality nothing was wrong with his ankle at all. He made up the story to prove a point. The doctor, as much as he wanted to say it that there was nothing wrong, was not allowed by the hospital to discharge someone with out a diagnosis. This is because of lawsuits. This is a major problem with medicine today.

                      The few docs, hospitals, and clinics that overcharge and such are fairly small. The threat of losing medicare payments is a very powerful tool. Couple that with federal time if found guilty and there is not nearly the amount of fraud as I've heard claimed. Not to say that there isn't waste, but not so much fraud.

                      • 1 vote
                      #13.1 - Mon May 11, 2009 3:14 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      Rigbee Dugane

                      Instead of paying doctors and hospitals for the number of services they provide, as happens now, Baucus wants to tie reimbursement to the quality of care. Quality would measured by standards that doctors and hospitals have a hand in shaping.

                      And they can call it "No Patient Left Behind."

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#14 - Sun May 10, 2009 6:06 PM EDT
                      Begentleonme

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                      No-one can plan for health; because health plans for us in its most conniving, collusive, intriguing, shrewd, calculative, scheming, acquiescing, unexpectedly way. Any second, any minute, any hour, any day, any week, any month, any year, any decade, any millennium. It doesn't discriminate as to when it turns nasty & bad & knocks us out at an unexpected time. For instance, take the "Swine"!

                        Reply#15 - Mon May 11, 2009 9:58 PM EDT
                        Medical Desk

                        President Obama hosted a meeting that marked one of the most promising signs for health reform to date, and not only because the topic was saving more than $2 trillion on health care costs. Representatives from hospitals, the insurance industry, medical device and pharmaceutical companies, labor and physicians came to the White House to discuss major steps being taken to lower health care costs across the board. Here is a video showing President Obama reading from his favorite teleprompter.

                          Reply#16 - Wed May 13, 2009 10:36 PM EDT
                          jpinsatxDeleted
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