MBAs see bleak job landscape in the recession

Jeff,

You hit the nail right on the head. I finished mine last May after being laid off in March. It took 3 months of hard work to find my new job. It is EXACTLY like having a bachelors years ago. For a long time they only thing I could find was entry-level work even with 20 years of experience.

For all you MBA haters out there, for me it was a personal goal and for self-accomplishment. I did not get my BS until I was 35 and my MBA at 40. I have the experience to get a job without the degree and the MBA is just icing on the cake.

For all you MBA haters out there, for me it was a personal goal and for self-accomplishment. I did not get my BS until I was 35 and my MBA at 40. I have the experience to get a job without the degree and the MBA is just icing on the cake.

no problem. At 40, you clearly WANTED to be a part of the business administration side. You had a clear goal and a desire for a particular job, so you got the training required to perform it. That's fine, the world needs people like you.

What the world does not need is millions of 20something MBA's freshly graduated from college thinking they're going to manage hedge funds and become millionaires. Which is, by far, the most common type of young MBA i have encountered.

I think most of us hate the vast majority of the PEOPLE with MBA's (a category in which you do not appear to fall), not the fundamental idea of the degree itself.

Good luck to you!

Remember, those who know what they are doing in business for the most part aren't teaching. They are in business....still.

Best news I've read all day. MBAs are a dime a dozen. It was MBAs who gave us the likes of Lehman Brothers.

Folks:

Everyone needs a back up plan these days. Possessing a degree in any field is no guarantee of success, or even employment, throughout a decades long career, especially with unusual events; cyclical downturns, (although the cycles seem to be accelerating lately!); wholesale changes in technology; globalization of business and employment; and personal pressures and life changes caused by a variety of issues not completely under your control.

If you do not have a secondary employment skill it would be a good time to consider development of something you may be able to do to fill in if your primary avocation is not fruitful.

When I was young I worked summers with my Father painting buildings. I did this for years under his instruction, and then years more to put myself through college, and then for years after college as there was no work in my selected field, (due to a recession triggered by the oil crisis and manipulation of interest rates and inflation, kind of like now!). I was able to live well enough and survive to launch my career later on, in a different field than the one I studied, but using my education and my work experience together to cobble up an entry into a good job.

This flexibility has led me through a maze of jobs that are related, but totally different until now when I have been able to follow my original career path after decades of doing other jobs, and even this was an unexpected departure born of the need to reinvent myself again. As it turns out all of my experiences came into play in this current, but perhaps not last generation of myself. I anticipate that another change or two may be in the future.

Diversify yourself for success.

Good Luck!

It's starting to become clear that education is not the answer to our labor market problems.

Offshoring, illegal immigration, and programs like H-1B and L-1 visas have taken away many of the jobs once available to American workers. This includes educated workers just as much as it does uneducated ones. H-1B and L-1 visas alone have all but killed the market for many engineers and technical workers. Switching to an MBA or law degree is great, until you find out everyone else is doing it too.

The jobs we're shipping offshore, or giving away to H-1B / L-1 visa holders and illegal immigrants, are jobs we need as a country to survive.

First, offshoring took many of the manufacturing jobs away, so we started moving to new fields like information technology. After the dot-com bust, companies started offshoring all of their IT engineers, call center reps, and technical workers, so people switched from science and engineering degrees to MBA's and law degrees. Workers whose jobs cannot be offshored found themselves being replaced by cheap foreign workers here on H-1B and L-1 visas. Now we're finding out there are serious limits to how many MBA's, lawyers, and nurses our economy can support.

The real wages of Americans have remained almost flat over the past decade, a fact that would be unremarkable if trillions of credit dollars weren't flowing through our economy at the time.

The bottom line is that our economy cannot survive without the jobs we're sending over to 3rd-world nations like China and India. We cannot support our own citizens while we continue to import millions of illegal immigrants and hundreds of thousands of H-1B / L-1 visa workers. There are simply not enough jobs to go around.

We need to end free trade with the developing world, prosecute employers that use illegal immigrants, and end the H-1B /L-1 foreign worker visa programs while we still have jobs left to protect.

I've had to do the same thing revert to project management and consulting. The large office was one of the first jobs reduced in this economy. I thought it was interesting when my boss made an iron clad appointment to see me on a Friday. Nothing like being dismissed in what use to be your office. Oh well life does go one and after you get over the money you feel you wasted on an advanced degree and the volume of others in the market with similar credential and the fact that some of the brightest people in India can write computer programs on a sheet of paper you get up off your as$ and and look for things that you've always wanted to do. Then look for ways to make that happen. It's no about the lazy fat pigs who had MBA's before you and ruined your chance at the slice of pie because of greed. The world has changed education is a part of that but looking for the propitious niche is wear new business ideas lie. I'm personally kind of infuriated that I failed to bring the snuggie to market. I walked around a lot wrapped in a blanket who new it would sell.

One of the more over-hyped "advanced" degrees out there.

Folks:

Didn't W have one of these?

Hmmmm.....

The people who cry 'you MUST have a degree' are either people echoing colleges or colleges who are really just one more business trying to find new ways to harvest your dollars in return for little or nothing. I was like you but finished my BA. I took my GMAT and actually attended an MBA program so I could quiet those voices in my head. Every other day we were told how brilliant and special we were- no kidding. They were selling us the program while we were in it. One of the worse things were the Harvard Case Studies. One of our professors thought Harvard Case sutdies (written by Harvard STUDENTS) were a great way to learn about a business model so we had to purchase these studies and discuss them. We were paying other students to tell us about businesses they'd researched!

My turning point came when I discussed predictability with my statistics professor. I reasoned that the greater the time line the less predictable anything becomes and he fully agreed. Thus, what seems common sense is actually quite profound. If NOTHING can be predicted, neither can success or all the things an MBA program tries to sell you. No job is guaranteed to last, no product is guaranteed to be a success. Another important concept (again, common knowledge at work) is the time value of money. Simply stated, it's worth more now than later, or even better "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush". The same goes with any money you put into an MBA program. So that $100K you put into an MBA program might buy self-esteem but it could be earning interest or starting a business that could do well. And there's something we never really covered- new business. The best they could do was put up this umbrella course called 'entrepreneurialism' but they could never tell you how to build a successful business. Their aim was to get you a job in the finance industry managing someone elses money or business.

I left the program after one semester and paid off my loans immediately. I took a decent job and eventually decided to start my own business. I always knew I would start my own business anyway so the program wouldn't have done much for me. I created my own product, patented it and contracted it for manufacture. I do the marketing, distribution and sales. If it grows it's mine. Anyone can figure this out on their own without two/three years of courses and $100K of debt. The only thing they can't do is know for certain they've come up with a winning product/service. That takes risk- hanging your balls out and hoping they don't get cut off. But it's worth it. Try teaching that Harvard!

That said, you did the right thing, now all you have to do is fully convince yourself. Perhaps you can take some of the tuition you didn't fork over and take a nice vacation or even start your own business.

You two make some good points. There's nothing wrong with someone who wants to seek further formal education, but I think there are a few things that people forget when considering the value of a college education.

Colleges are businesses, first and foremost, and admissions counselors are basically salespeople with a different title. It seems, to me, anyway, that the education industry has been very effective at capitalizing on two very basic human motivators: the fear of loss, and the desire for future gain. That drives much of the perception that a college degree is the ticket to higher earnings and that the lack of one will surely mean a lifetime of dead-end jobs and near-poverty. People seem to forget that only one-quarter to one-third of Americans (depending on the study) have completed a bachelor's degree, and that the rest of us aren't necessarily in the poorhouse. It's debatable whether a person with a degree is likely to earn more simply because of the degree, or whether things like increased networking opportunities, self-fulfilling prophecy, or something else, come into play.

I went back to college about eight years ago, and did not finish. Part of the reason was that I was also working 12-14 hour days, and part was that I was doubtful that it was worth the amount of time and money that I was investing. My lack of credentials (not education-two different things!) was irrelevant, for I received promotions and better job offers without the degree. Things like drive, work ethic, persistance, confidence, and the ability to influence others are attributes that people need to succeed whether or not they are degreed. It's a mistake to assign too much importance to the piece of paper and neglect the rest.

Yet another entrepreneur ready to give a hoof to the head of the MBA set. Right there with you :-)

“If they had known these would be the opportunities when they started their MBA they probably wouldn’t have come back to do the MBA," [Dean of Miami U Business School, Jenkins] said.

What, there's no crystal ball reading course offered in the program? A bad economy wasn't mentioned in the glossy brochures? They didn't suggest it even on the grad school letterhead? What kind of institutions are these?

HA!

"Well, the wolrd needs ditch diggers too!"

-Judge Smells, Caddyshack

well said sean.

Sean - FYI - the term is "risk averse," (not "aDverse"). I agree with the points you make.

I'll drink to that!

MovingOut,

Do you realize how uneducated you sound? If an MBA cannot get a job as a manager because there are no positions avaiable they will take the next lower job. This pushes the BS down to the next level and your uneducated A$$ on the street.

Scott, I appreciate your comments but there are a few things to consider aside from your assumption I have no formal education. First, if the only thing holding you in a position is your degree then you are in a weak position to start with. Second, if you are talented and a company fires you for whatever reason then either you're in a weak industry or you work for a shortsighted/weak business. I've worked for a few fortune 100 companies and never had either of these problems. Third, a real businessperson understands what makes companies tick and what is excess. The culture of certifications has nothing on capital creation and those who work at it. Businesses want people who can bring in dollars, plain and simple. At least, successful businesses do. Perhaps that's why I own a business, because I want the full value of my labor rather than believing a 'secure' job can provide that for me.

As for arguing the merits of my own education, I'd rather you call me ignorant because then you'd at least sound assumptive rather than proposing a weak argument yourself.

MovingOut,

I appreciate your comments. It takes a special person with a special drive to start their own business and I wish you luck with it. I am slightly risk averse and have a beautiful loving wife who is very risk averse so starting a new business and working 60+ hours per week is not for me.

Scottbailey,

While MovingOut is definately more assertive in his opinion regarding the lack of real world prospective with MBA's, he's unfortunately more correct then incorrect.

The company I work for did have a slight layoff late last quarter that coincided with the pop of the bubble. We've since rehired and restaffed and then some as with the businesses going forward in a favorable way. We also used it to get rid of some problems that needed to be cleaned up.

The more educated workers who were here longer got the pink slip. They were replaced by younger more aggressive workers which also had less education and were paid less due to their lower experience. It is about making money for the company. You are as good as what you produce. You have to constantly have a value on yourself when you are part of a for profit organization. Be ready to substantiate your existence and do not rest on your laurels. The individuals I mentioned above that got laid off could not asert how they were an asset.

When it's time for tough decisions to be made in an organization, "I have a degree and he doesn't." will not save you. Your management will be looking at the bottom line. You are making the assumption that people with a formal education always end up making more then people without a more formal education. I've seen those statistics as well, and I don't completely buy into them. Talent and drive will get you further then just a degree any day of the week.

I've seen some people equate a college education in this fashion, and this is the closest i've seen to accurately represent it, "It is a key to a door." Notice it's just a key to the door. You have to find out which door, find the lock, open the door and then step through the door. It is also "a key" not "the key". I, and many other people have made our own keys and, when times demanded it, knocked down a wall to make our own doors.

My father is included included in this. He is a high school sophmore dropout, but always encouraged me to get an education. He was not thrilled when I left school to work. He has since remembered what he knows from first hand experience. The education doesn't completely make the man. He is his own company lives an upper middle class existence, and makes seven figures a year. He is a voracious reader who loves history and really any non-fiction. He has also been married for over 45 years to the same woman of which I am the youngest son. Not bad for starting out as teenagers with little more then the shirts on their backs.

The simple point is, that it is up to you. Make your own destiny don't wait for other people to tell you how to get there.

Cniht,

Well said and I could not agree with you more. As I said I worked for 15 years without a degree but I wanted one for personal reasons. I am the first in my family to have a masters degree and one of only a few from my high school graduating class, not bad for someone who graduated high school in the bottom 25% of my class.

This is my biggest complaint about the new administration, I have worked my butt off to get where I am, both with my experience and my education, and I do not want to lose it to Socialism.

Scott,

On the bright side most federal bureaucracies have been increasing in size at rates of fifteen or more percent in the last four years. The average salary this year will increase from seventy three thousand in change to seventy six thousand in change. (Federal Employees get a "Cost of Living" increase every year by law.)

Of course I can't think of one thing that a government employee actually produced other then hassle. I have no desire to buy that, and I don't think humans can eat paper.

In the end it will all collapse due to its own immorality. Or rather amorality. The question is whether it will take everyone else down with it. Only time will tell, MBAs or no be damned.

Moving Out: FYI, the term is "basic tenets," (not tenents). I agree with your post and your points are well made.

realityman,

Touche on the current events with regard to MBAs running these failing businesses. Most of them also came from Harvard, Yale, etc. There is something seriously wrong when these famed institutions are producing leaders which unfortunately lead to this level of destruction.

I think it's about time to revalue colleges across the country, and the permanent fixtures that their staff and faculty have become on state and federal budgets.

The ignore feature is made for scumbum and his kind. Fortunately for all of us he has absolutely no political influence.

Teamster 85: You give advice, but you advise someone. Too different meanings. (I.e. let me give you some advice, or, as a lawyer, I advise you to do... .)

I apologize to everyone for highlighting these tiny slips today but these things get on my nerves.

HVictoria,

Very good comment and honestly this discussion all the way around has been a breath of fresh air compared to what is generally on newsvine. Maybe because it's a story about education it's drawing out people who can at least communicate clearly.

I do want to frame a few comments on these boards just to state it with a firm intent of clarifying what I believe a majority of people are agreeing with and what we're really getting at.

I believe whether you're one of the people with an MBA or a person that doesn't have that formal upper education and are replying with the thoughtful comments I've seen today we're all dedicated individuals. We are the type of people that we want to see in the workplace. We're driven individuals who have personal, professional reasons for doing what we do and are not skin deep.

Many of the MBA respondents have had years of experience in their career field or a career field before going back for the MBA. That's excellent. You've done what every person should be expected to do in their lives, improve themselves.

The common thread between us sans education is to a point what Seth alluded to below. Focused, and thoughtful individuals when we set our minds on something we research and do a good professional job that people will notice and want. This happens whether we have degrees or whether we're an MBA focusing on improving our companies.

What a majority of the negativity is from the non degree individuals (Of which I am a part.) is that 'we' are not running across many people like 'you' in the corporate world. We're running across the class room book knowledge only grads or individuals who went through education from primary school to MBA without any experience and were droned into a counter productive sense of entitlement and poor behavior. (refer to comment #7 by Sean)

The point in all of this is that what is needed now in our businesses and in our country are driven self starters with the ambition to excel no mater what is in their way, regardless of credentialing.

The crap that went on in the 90's and in the 2000's and is peddled as conventional wisdom of the day needs to end. This goes for government, education, or private businesses who are now relying on the taxpayer to get them through this rough patch after tanking their companies. This article's framing of MBAs and the kids that are coming out of these schools is just hitting on bitter nerves.

There is a major difference between a skilled workman adding tools to the toolbox and someone who is "getting the degree because they heard there was lots of money to be made". Too many of the latter have created the current economic disaster we're dealing with.

Sounds like your municipality needs to "compete" the sanitation contract.