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Bagram: Is it Obama’s new Guantanamo?

Wed Jun 3, 2009 5:57 AM EDT
obama, white-house, barack-obama, bush, united-states, only-on-msnbc-com, guantanamo, detainee, bagram, bates
msnbc.com News — Tom Curry, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com

BAGRAM AIR BASE, AFGHANISTAN - MARCH 3: Afghan nationals who work on the base enter a walkway on March 3, 2009 at Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan. Following U.S. President Barack Obama`s executive order closing the Guantanamo Bay Prison Camp, Bagram Air Base is slated for a $60 million expansion, nearly doubling the size of the prison at Bagram. Currently the base north of the Afghan capital Kabul holds over 600 prisoners classified as enemy combatants. (Photo by Spencer Platt/Getty Images)

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— Should detainees the United States has shipped to the Bagram air base in Afghanistan have the same constitutional right to challenge their detention in court that prisoners at the Guantanamo prison in Cuba have been given?

President Barack Obama didn't answer that question in a May 21 speech outlining his policy for dealing with alleged terrorists. In fact, Obama didn't mention Bagram at all.

Yet human rights lawyers say Bagram will play a critical role in shaping the Obama administration’s detainee policy.

Obama has promised to close the Guantanamo prison by Jan. 22 of next year, but the Bagram prison continues to house alleged terrorists captured by the United States in Pakistan and other nations.

As a candidate for president, Obama praised a Supreme Court ruling last June that granted prisoners at Guantanamo habeas corpus rights to challenge their detention. He applauded Justice Anthony Kennedy’s decision in Boumediene v. Bush as “a rejection of the Bush administration's attempt to create a legal black hole at Guantanamo.”

Do Guantanamo rules reach to Bagram?
But an April 2 decision by U.S. District Judge John Bates that applied the Boumediene ruling to some Bagram prisoners is forcing Obama to confront the question of whether he’s presiding over his own “legal black hole” at the prison in Afghanistan.

The Obama administration is challenging this ruling in the federal appeals court in Washington, D.C., arguing that Bates’ ruling would for the first time in American history extend habeas corpus rights to non-Americans in a theater of war in a foreign territory.

The Bagram site, they contend, is not like Guantanamo because the United States has become de facto ruler of the Cuban base after maintaining control of it since 1903.

But Bates ruled that some of those held at Bagram who were captured outside Afghanistan “are virtually identical to the detainees in Boumediene,” describing them as “non-citizens who were... apprehended in foreign lands far from the United States and brought to yet another country for detention.”

“The constitutional issues presented are consequential and fundamental: at stake are separation of powers considerations, the president's authority to wage war abroad free from judicial scrutiny, and the constitutional rights of certain aliens detained abroad indefinitely by the United States,” Bates wrote in a separate ruling this week that cleared the way for the appeal.

His original ruling — which is on hold pending the appeal — gave habeas rights to three men at Bagram, all of whom are being held as “illegal enemy combatants”:

If upheld by the appeals court and Supreme Court, the Bates ruling would open the way to appeals by others at Bagram, though it is not clear how many detainees were moved to the prison after being apprehended outside the country.

Criticism of Obama from abroad
Bates’ ruling has fueled criticism of the Obama administration, in the United States and abroad.

The Times of London said in a May 27 signed editorial that Bagram is “the grossly underreported story” of “a U.S.-run jail that Mr. Obama does not want the world to focus on. … It is Bagram, not Guantanamo, that should trouble the world's conscience.”

Times writer Tim Reid said that at Bagram “more than 600 prisoners, many held for years, and all without charges and indefinitely are packed into conditions far worse than Guantanamo.”

Tina Foster, executive director of the International Justice Network, a legal advocacy group which is representing al Maqaleh and al Bakri, agreed that Obama is aiming to deflect attention from the Afghan prison.

“I think the administration is not talking about Bagram because it is an embarrassing part of their detention policy,” she said.

Obama “has adopted the Bush administration policy which allows the president to maintain a completely lawless enclave any place in the world besides the U.S. and Guantanamo Bay. They’d like the American public to believe they have solved the problem by declaring they are going to close Guantanamo.”

The White House did not respond to msnbc.com’s requests for comment on the Bagram issue.

Decision limited to Guantanamo?
But one critic of the Supreme Court’s decision on Guantanamo, Brookings Institution legal expert Benjamin Wittes, warned last year that the ruling would lead to judges extending habeas rights to military prisoners held by the United States around the globe.

“I didn’t think you could confine it to Guantanamo,” he told msnbc.com. “A lot of people said then that I was being alarmist; I think I was being realistic.”

Other legal experts said Obama’s decision to leave Bagram out of his May 21 speech won’t remove his need to confront the legal problems posed by the site.

“It's unfortunate, because Bagram is certainly going to be the focus of concerns for the administration” in dealing with detainee policy from now on, said Gabor Rona, the International Legal Director of the advocacy group Human Rights First.

Noting that a task force appointed by Obama and headed by Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Attorney General Eric Holder is due to report its proposals for a new detainee policy next month, Rona said, “Whatever recommendations it makes are going to be driven by the present state of affairs at Bagram."

Gathering evidence in a theater of war
Bagram is different from Guantanamo in one important respect: It’s in an active theater of war. 

But the difficulties in gathering evidence and taking depositions “certainly are not insurmountable,” Bates said in his decision. (Bates was appointed to the court by President George W. Bush in 2001.)

But Justice Department lawyers argue that responding to habeas petitions from Bagram detainees would “divert the military’s attention and resources at a critical time for operations in Afghanistan.”

Moreover, they contend, Bates' ruling “encroaches on military judgments about where to detain an individual captured during an ongoing war.”

Under the separation of powers doctrine, they argue, the commander in chief and his generals need broad powers to conduct military operations. Allowing habeas litigation under these circumstances would risk harming the president’s “ability to succeed in armed conflict and to protect United States’ forces.”

But law professor Kal Raustiala, the director of UCLA’s Burkle Center for International Relations, said Bates’ ruling was narrow enough that it would not significantly disrupt military operations.

“Judge Bates ruled on only a handful of individuals, all of whom were brought to Bagram from elsewhere,” he said. “Limited to these cases, the diversion is not that great.”

He said the crucial point is that Bates “is trying to take away the incentive to bring outsiders (those captured outside Afghanistan) to Bagram. He wants to avoid the problem posed by Guantanamo — that the government is incentivized to move individuals there to avoid habeas and other rights.”

If Bagram or other foreign bases are beyond the reach of habeas corpus, “it creates a mechanism for executive tyranny in a world in which it is easy to fly someone in there on a suspicion,” said Raustiala.

The Pakistan problem
With Obama accelerating military operations in both Afghanistan and Pakistan — seeing the two as “AfPak,” one unified strategic region — Justice Department lawyers emphasized the problem that Pakistan problem in motions filed with Judge Bates.

Granting habeas rights to those held at Bagram would give “the enemies of the United States an incentive to conduct operations from Pakistan, using it as a safe haven and using the U.S. court system as a tactical weapon,” they said, sketching a scenario in which lawyers would tie up the military in protracted proceedings to determine where and under what circumstances each particular prisoner at Bagram was captured.

“This is the hardest issue for the courts,” observed Raustiala. Obama “wants to be able to capture individuals in Pakistan and bring those individuals to Bagram, and there may be much more of this kind of thing in the next months. And it is hard to articulate a principle that would allow that — and yet be consistent with Bates's decision.”

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Cheese Eating Surrender MonkeyDeleted
TJM07

As in any war, POWs, prisoners captured on the battlefield, have no rights under our Constitution. Under the Conventions, since they are not wearing uniforms, the US troops have a right to execute these POWs as saboteurs. Of course if that happend, the bleeding hearts would be quick to point out that the Conventions do not apply to the terrorists since they were not signatures to the Conventions and that they do not represent a single government or country. They wish to provide the protections of the Conventions without having the responsibility of the Conventions.

I suppose the question is simply, what's the difference?

  • 10 votes
Reply#2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 7:22 AM EDT
eagle-913651

What was wrong for Bush and all the presidents before him to do now seems to be okay for Obama to do. Guess it just all depends on who you are whether things are okay to do. All those that wanted change-here you go.

  • 9 votes
#3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 7:34 AM EDT
docroc

eagle-913651 Yes, that's one of the wonderful things about the mess that Bush-Cheney created for the last 6 years or so: no one will ever be able to untangle it and the presidency of someone like Obama -- whose talents could be used to do some good -- will be wasted trying to do so, while right-wing jackals nip at his heels accusing him of being incompetent, inconsistent, too liberal, not as liberal as he said he would be, etc.

You right-wingers should be happy -- thanks to the last 30 years of conservative economic policy and repeated tax-cuts for the rich, and 2 wars started by Bush-Cheney, you have just what you've always wanted: a federal government too poor to provide services we really need here at home, but locked into a ruinous amount of military spending we don't need and a political system that's so poisoned by ignorance and ill will that nothing short of a cataclysm will change it.

    #3.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:11 AM EDT
    Jim K

    no one will ever be able to untangle it and the presidency of someone like Obama -- whose talents could be used to do some good.

    {"commentId":7430190,"authorDomain":"docroc67"}

    Yeah.......Obama could instead be having sex in the White House with someone other than his wife just like Clinton did. Now that would be productive!!!

      #3.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:24 AM EDT
      Mort-319737

      I thought the war in Afghanistan was started by terrorists flying planes into the World trade center. This at least should not even be debated. Iraq, I agree is another issue as to why we went in. At the time with the info we were given I agreed that we should go in, now the second guessing of the how and why is a heated topic which is best left to historians. We are there in Iraq, we must finish up to the best of our abilities, and leave these people better than we found them. I wish people would quit blaming America for the Afghanistan war.

      • 2 votes
      #3.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:34 AM EDT
      Big Al-1002476

      docroc

      Out of the past 30 years, the congress was for 20 years controlled by The Democrats. The following is a few statements from the Dems in response to the USA attacking Iraq. How do you explain them? Did Bush hold thier families captive to say the following?

      "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

      "This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

      "Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

      "Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

      "(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

      "Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

      "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

      "There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

      "What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

      "The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

      "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

      "I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

      "Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

      "Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

      "The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

      "I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

      "Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

      "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

      "Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

      "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

      "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

      "I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

      "The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

      "(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003

      "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

      "Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002

      "Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

      "As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

      "Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

      "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

      "Saddam’s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq’s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

      "Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration’s policy towards Iraq, I don’t think there can be any question about Saddam’s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002

      • 10 votes
      #3.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:59 AM EDT
      joe-295829

      30 years of conservative economic policy? Have the Republicans been in charge of Congress for 30 yrs and I missed it? I could have sworn they were only in charge for 10 yrs prior to the leftist taking back power 3 yrs ago.. I think your premise is full of crap like you are..

      • 2 votes
      #3.5 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:24 AM EDT
      GOD is NOT GOP

      Cmon Big Al , get a publisher and write a book.

        #3.6 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:28 AM EDT
        cs1701a

        Excellent post Big Al. The left loves to forget that they were in full support of it.

        • 6 votes
        #3.7 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:29 AM EDT
        jmarmont

        Yep, O Bama can dodge and weave, say one thing and od another, all without facing any scrutiny whatsoever from the "free" press. If any inconsistancies get pointed out, then one is a"right wing extremeist. What these people don't quite get is that 46% of the Voters DID NOT vote for this guy. And now, suddenly, any disagreement is considered extremism.

        • 2 votes
        #3.8 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:31 AM EDT
        Ian Emdee

        Big Al-1002476.......
        You have offered 30 odd quotations and attributions. But, I see no
        references to online or printed sources. Where did you get this
        material? The only places I am able to find any of these (online)
        is on conservative websites, blogs, etc. where they, also, are
        only attributed but not referenced.

        I can't say how many times I have received the same email over
        the past 4 or 5 years asserting that (according to testimony during
        the congressional hearing) Osama Bin Laden threatened Ollie North.
        IN FACT it was Abu Nidal (a Palestinian). So, let's not pretend
        that regressives don't circulate disinformation. The have, and they
        do on a regular basis.

        Your entire "article" is suspect until you provide (neutral and
        verifiable) references. Maybe, it's just another hoax.

          #3.9 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:17 AM EDT
          phil barker-900080

          Ian, these quotes are verifiable, and have been posted in various formats for years. Your agenda in asking for Big Al to go back and cite the sources is the typical liberal response when confronted with facts they don't want to hear. Look 'em up yourself, and then come back with a response. Or, stick your fingers in your ears and pretend you didn't hear any of it. That way you can continue in your ignorance without being inconvenienced by the truth.

          • 2 votes
          #3.10 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
          docroc

          Big Al-1002476

          Your panfully long post is not needed to establish the complicity of Dems in the past 30 years of bad government, nor did I mention Repubs or Dems in my post, as the problem is endemic.

          This doesn't however change the fact that Democrat presidents on average have tended to favor more progressive causes than Republican ones and so, for than reason, I'd rather have Obama than Bush.

            #3.11 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
            Ian Emdee

            "I admit to being a twelve year old pimply faced nerd." -- phil barker-900080, Jun 3, 2009

              #3.12 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 1:47 PM EDT
              Jerry D Williamson

              Big Al

              Great post...

              Its easy for a politician to flip flop as all they want is a free ride..

                #3.13 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 8:11 AM EDT
                Go USA-851295

                Another good thing about the Internet: We can all easily research what was said by whom, allowing us the ability to make more informed decisions when it comes to voting. Of course, the assumption is that we will read all sides of the debate.

                  #3.14 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 8:10 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  Road Warrior-1005773

                  The word is out that Pelosi has a leading role in designing the torture chambers at Bagram. She was heard saying why waterboard when pulling finger nails is much more effective.

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 7:40 AM EDT
                  Really?-423349

                  Better yet, subject the detainees to a 4 year Obama presidency. Now that is REAL torture.

                  • 4 votes
                  #4.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:59 AM EDT
                  phil barker-900080

                  Pelosi doesn't need to waterboard. One look in that crazy woman's eyes will break down the hardest of terrorists.

                    #4.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    slickporscheDeleted
                    Steve-837340Deleted
                    Typical Politician

                    Close Guantanamo and leave Bagram open. I can smell the stench of hypocrisy on this President. He says one thing and works to do another. Remember the debates when he attacked Senator McCain for suggesting to tax Employer Health Care Benefits given to employees. Now this week we read that it is on the table to include these benefits in the potential tax increases. While Bush had his faults he was a man that told you what he would do and would stick to it. This guys word can not be trusted. This is change you can believe in!

                    • 10 votes
                    Reply#7 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 7:42 AM EDT
                    Olde Yankee

                    Obi-Wan Obama said he would give us "CHANGE" didn't he? You just didn't realize what kind he was talking about...

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:21 AM EDT
                    Neg

                    Olde, I did!

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:06 AM EDT
                    jmarmont

                    Change you can believe in is trying to change the form of gov't we have. Why else nominate someone for the Supreme court who has been reversed BY that court in 80% of her cases?..Because you want to change the meaning of the Constitution, that's why.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
                    InShock1975

                    Thank you, Typical. Close Gitmo and ship them off to Afghanistan? How can he possibly justify that? Other than giving those detainees easier access to other terrorists, what purpose would it serve?

                    Leave them in Gitmo-Geneva does not apply to terrorists-they belong in an entirely different category of "prisoner of war".

                      #7.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
                      Reply
                      Tyler Durden-330839

                      This is old Fvcking news. Wake me when they get around to Obama's support of "Preventive Detention".

                        Reply#8 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 7:50 AM EDT
                        tom343

                        For the far right?

                          #8.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:48 AM EDT
                          Kev G

                          Tyler,

                          Great point. The news about Preventive Detention was floated the Friday before Memorial Day and got a comnplete pass by the media.

                          DocRoc will likely have some BS justification for that too.

                            #8.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
                            Bill M NY

                            I fully agree there, the Preventative Detention situation is mighty shady. Not something I would have expected out of someone who is so soft on protecting our country :).

                            Really though, this is a very bad move.

                              #8.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 12:06 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              slickporscheDeleted
                              concerned American-447828

                              Although our government has been wrong on most everything up to this point, I applaude Mr. Obama for continuing the Bush detainee policies. The realities of war have set in.

                              • 1 vote
                              Reply#10 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:04 AM EDT
                              tom343

                              You know, maybe this is why past administrations realized that politics stops at the water's edge. Now this guy seems to have learned that to be a truism rather than a cliche, and his actions seem to please some and drive his base nuts.

                                #10.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:51 AM EDT
                                Reply
                                Tom-1002719

                                It seems our President's attempt at appeasement and political correctness has bit him in the aft end. Now I think the the current administration will see why new administrations should not make it all about trashing and criminalizing the past administration. It serves to place your rear end on the table as well.

                                • 5 votes
                                Reply#11 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:06 AM EDT
                                Olde Yankee

                                Hmmm, the more I read and the more I see of the Mr. Obama's policies; the more it becomes obvious that he said what the American sheeple wanted to hear to get elected and is now doing what the democrates really want instead.

                                Maybe they really did put lipstick on the same old pig? Maybe the only change we really got was a different face?

                                Only time will tell.

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#12 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:07 AM EDT
                                Truth and Honesty

                                Since MSNBC seems to thrive on hypothetical possibilities...if this 'tabloid' media outlet had some real guts, it would discuss a legitimate news article asking it’s readers and the American people to answer a simple poll question...

                                IF AMERICA HAD A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION TODAY, COULD OBAMA BE RE-ELECTED OR SUFFER A DEVOSTATING LOSS?

                                The fact is...people view and read this 'tabloid' media outlet... not because they expect to get the real TRUTH or the HONEST FACTS, but primarily because they find it ridiculously amusing... similar to an impulse buy of one of those 'tabloid' gossip magazines you browse through while your'e waiting in line at the check-out aisle.

                                However, MSNBC, and other media outlets do have an actual MISSION. The substance and intent of their reporting is no longer to be purely based on facts, but rather on persuasion. As an example, If it were a totally dark, gloomy night and they are able to convince you that it’s currently beautiful and sunny outside… then, they’ve accomplished their mission… even though it is a complete and outright LIE. These same media outlets have even recently reported that nowadays, lying is now an accepted and very effective means of communication.

                                TAKE THE POLL, MSNBC !!!

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#13 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:17 AM EDT
                                Really?-423349

                                Truth,

                                Ain't that the truth!!

                                • 1 vote
                                #13.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:21 AM EDT
                                daver-98

                                Truth and Honesty:

                                You're right on the money....given your true observations, it should be no surprise that MSNBC's ratings are going down in flames.

                                The only question is .....will this clown Obama offer them a "bailout" once they face the prospect of going under ??

                                • 1 vote
                                #13.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:41 AM EDT
                                Neg

                                Dover, no GE will save them.

                                • 2 votes
                                #13.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:08 AM EDT
                                Truth and Honesty

                                daver,

                                The answer to your question is... YES !!

                                Obama will definitely offer them 'bailout' money (commonly referred to as stolen, hard-working taxpayer dollars) to stop MSNBC from going under.

                                The reason is because MSNBC is one of the many mafia style media outlets who spew Obama's propaganda messages as he specifically directs them to.

                                But, more importantly... he knows that MSNBC is owned and controlled by G.E. (General Electric)... who also gives Obama his 'marching' orders.

                                And, as long as they can continue to perpetuate the ridiculous myth that 'global warming' can be controlled or fixed by stealing more taxpayer dollars... G.E. stands to profit with billions of dollars... all the while knowing that "Mother Nature" will run it own course... regardless of whatever mankind does.

                                • 3 votes
                                #13.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:11 AM EDT
                                ToxicChemist

                                Neg & Truth, you are correct. GE will make a ton of money with the implementation of the green policies. That money will be funneled to NBC (in the same conglomerate) to the Reelection campaign for B.O. who, inturn will then reciprocate, etc......

                                GE will be Obama's Haliburton.

                                • 1 vote
                                #13.5 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
                                Gigi293179

                                Your spot on! Obama has been in office for 4 months and he didn't create Bagram. MSNBC - It's doesn't matter what name Guantanamo/Bagram it was a human rights issue waterboarding.

                                  #13.6 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  Bryant Jones

                                  Yes... I looked it up and it has about a 74.15% of it being Obama's next Guantanamo... ... ... yea so yes it is thank you and have a Good Night. :D

                                    Reply#14 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:23 AM EDT
                                    Neurofuzzy

                                    Looked it up where? 74.15% of what? Clarify and cite, please :)

                                      #14.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 12:03 PM EDT
                                      Reply
                                      trim-484476

                                      leave it to MSNBC to try and make America the bad guy for holding dangerous terrorist captured during war. further, these evil men are in a foreign country but should be given the rights of US Citizens??? i think the US media is a wee bit ........ liberal

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#15 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:24 AM EDT
                                      dont start it if you cant finish it

                                      It seems more and more these days that Obama is showing time and again that the only time that he deals with a subject is if it has become TOO TABOO and threatens to undermine his POWER BASE. In a way its kind of sad that the only way to get something taken care of is to harp on it so much that Obama has no choice but to deal with it. It will interesting to see how Obama takes care of this one. This prison deal could turn out to be a DOUBLE EDGED subject on one side he takes care of both equally or on the other he creates a DOUBLE STANDARD but hey he is all about change right.... CHANGE of government, CHANGE or banks, CHANGE of auto industry, CHANGE of law, CHANGE of political process, CHANGE of gun laws, CHANGE of marriage process, CHANGE of states rights to self regulation, CHANGE/MISUSE of tax payers dollars.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#16 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:27 AM EDT
                                      joe-295829

                                      When will you people wake up and see the man obama does nothing if there is nothing it for him.. He only does what will make him look good and he is constantluy on the campaign trail.. What do you think this little jont ot the Muslim counrties is for.. PR pure and simple PR to make him look good.. Just like bowing to the king of saudi.. he looked good to the muslim world.. If there is nothing in it to make him look good he wont do it.. take his dinner date with his wife. After be littling the CEOs of the BIG 3 for waste this man holds up air traffic in NY for a dinner date.. Come on people get your heads out your backsides..

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #16.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:37 AM EDT
                                      jmarmont

                                      Yes, O'Bama is all about O'Bama...screw thw American people.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #16.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
                                      Kev G

                                      Obama and his administration have been capaigning for 2012 since January 20th.

                                      We cannot let this happen again.

                                      I assume we'll still have the right to vote then.

                                        #16.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:54 AM EDT
                                        Truth and Honesty

                                        As each day passes... even He now knows his chances for re-election are totally impossible...

                                        So, his main objective now is to 'cash-in' on the hard-working American public with every opportunity that arises and to appease all the Mid-Eastern countries who literally hate us.

                                          #16.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          daver-98

                                          Now we're enduring a "double-whammy" from this clown Obama. First he goes on a spending spree causing massive deficits (and massive tax hikes for everyone) and now he chooses to weaken our nation by giving TERRORISTS rights they never have.

                                          Are we going to survive 4 years of this clown?

                                            Reply#17 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:38 AM EDT
                                            Paul-4843

                                            We'll survive it but will we survive the aftermath?

                                              #17.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:47 AM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              Prentice Hill

                                              You CAN NOT have Constitutional rights if you not a citizen of the United States.  When will the lib's of this nation realize that?  As for the "President"...

                                                Reply#18 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:45 AM EDT
                                                gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                CARL THE PLUMBER

                                                gumbo, calling someone a lib does not give you the right to go off the deep end and call people idiots and morons. And people arrested in the US are offered constitutional rights if they are citizens or not, but not overseas.

                                                  #18.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:00 AM EDT
                                                  gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                  joe-295829

                                                  hey new orleans.. Why do you leftist get upset at being called liberal? or a leftist? words are just words..

                                                    #18.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:43 AM EDT
                                                    jmarmont

                                                    Yes...that is exactly the point..Thats why WE have a Constitution. It's for Americans, not everybody in every country around the globe. Why not decry the way the Mexican's treat thier criminals since it would be contrary to our constitution. Consistancy is not a strong point on the left for sure.

                                                      #18.5 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
                                                      Bill M NY

                                                      The point is not to give them constitutional rights, but to ensure that American morality is not left at the border. We use our Constitution to guide our actions, protecting the rights of others.

                                                      It is a fine thing to be free and just, but that same freedom and justice must be applied to others when we leave this country. To indefinitely detain someone on foreign soil is against our moral guidelines.

                                                      This is not a lib vs conservative issue, it is clearly a violation of the basic tenants of American justice. Obama is currently violating those tenents and should be held just as accountable as Bush.

                                                      Try these individuals, and carry out sentence as per the Geneva Convention regarding warfare and POW's. Most of them will be shot, others will be detained until the end of hostilities in the country in which they were captured and then released to their native countries, and the rest who would be tortured and killed when released will be allowed asylum in the US.

                                                      Real easy when you follow the rules.

                                                        #18.6 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 2:39 PM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        rktara

                                                        How about starting with fixing the spelling on the sign ?

                                                          Reply#19 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:50 AM EDT
                                                          gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                          Ben Fox

                                                          American should show strength, our support for Isreal should never wavier but I get the feeling that this new president wants to look good in the Muslim world. I think Bush showed people in the Middle East that he would support them. We will never be accepted by the Muslim world because of the our life styles that are different than theirs. You have to understand the culture before you deal with the issue, and you may never be able to deal with it fully. I don't think people from the Middle East are apt to embrace the kind of democracy we want. In Iran all the people are bullied by the religious group, most people don't real care, but they know prison or death awaits them.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#21 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:50 AM EDT
                                                          angrywhiteguy

                                                          HYPOCRITE, LIAR, MISLEADER, CHAMPION OF DOUBLE STANDARDS, DECEIVER, MISREPRESENTER, OPPORTUNIST, PURVEYOR OF SMOKE SCREENS, CAKE EATER AND ................................. THE FIRST FASCIST, MUSLIM PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!

                                                          It is so sad and alarming and disturbing that the once great United States of America has had its populous so deliberately, systematically dumbed down for generations, by the undeniable corruption and perversion and blatantly obvious agenda based education being crammed down the throats of our children as they are forced (Think vouchers - or a lack of them) to attend our misguided public school system. Then the myth is further perpetuated in many instances in an almost militant way at the majority of our nations colleges and universities (think global warming or should I say "climate change"). They have now had to change the name of the religion, I mean movement, I mean lie now that even to those who have already drank the kool-aid, the propaganda pitch that is global warming isn't credible. Just look around, it defies logic!

                                                          Americans have become so intellectually lazy and dismissive of engaging themselves in critical thinking and the honest examination of the crucial issues of the day, that they just sit idly by as our elected governmant officials take over the auto, banking, insurance and mortgage industries.

                                                          Wake up, get involved, give a damn, think for yourself, figure out what YOU believe in and then fight for it!

                                                          If you STAND FOR NOTHING, you will surely FALL FOR ANYTHING !!!

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#22 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:54 AM EDT
                                                          tom343

                                                          Events will drag him along as they seem to be doing. JFK eventually realized how the world really ran, and after a while started to be a good president. This guy will be, too if he ignores the right people (like most people here) and listens to the right ones.

                                                            #22.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:01 AM EDT
                                                            Ian Emdee

                                                            angrywhiteguy.....
                                                            We did get involved.....that's why you're angry.

                                                              #22.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 2:33 PM EDT
                                                              Bill M NY

                                                              See, I am no fan of Mr Obama, but the second I hit the Muslim comment I stopped reading. Based on that statement I can only surmise that the rest of your writing will also be incorrect.

                                                              Now, i am not going to finish reading it and give you the benefit of the doubt that there were some REALLY good points in there that would have converted everyone to your side and reasoning.

                                                              That assumed, please state your facts without the Muslim crap that we all know is false and continue to discuss what it is you disagree with and why.

                                                              I disagree with the closing of Gitmo because no plan, budget, or forethought went into that decision. Had a plan actually been formulated and released, i may or may not agree with it. But like so many other grand plans from this administration, like health care, there is no plan to be argued or discussed, to be agreed to or fought.

                                                              More empty promises for the empty masses.

                                                              And look, not a single reference to Islam, fascism, socialism, or monkey bears. Visious vicious monkey bears.

                                                                #22.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 3:15 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                simon cyrene cross-1080237

                                                                Did Obama ever think before making campaign attacks? He judges Bush for Guatanamo while secretly keeping another jail open doing the same thing.

                                                                Now he is discussing taxing health benefits. Didn't he attack McCain for proposing the same concept.

                                                                Obama is lost. I just hope that he doesn't allow too many Muslim countries to get nukes before his term ends.

                                                                  Reply#23 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:55 AM EDT
                                                                  jmarmont

                                                                  O Bama doesn't think..he merely acts on the latest poll numbers.

                                                                    #23.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:50 AM EDT
                                                                    ToxicChemist

                                                                    Simon, he'll let Iran go nuclear, but won't aid Israel in defending itself (unless attacked).

                                                                      #23.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 11:11 AM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      woonce

                                                                      Obama is making George Bush look smart.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      Reply#24 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:58 AM EDT
                                                                      Scott-461700

                                                                      George Bush IS smart. History will prove he did a lot of things that needed to be done. If B.O. doesnt screw it all up

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #24.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:04 AM EDT
                                                                      GOD is NOT GOP

                                                                      The man wouldn't have made it through college without daddy, can't pronounce "nuclear," or speak in coherent sentences. He is far from smart. He is what you may call, "spittin' chaw, beatin-bibles, ropin' hogs smart," which is slightly different than "book smart."

                                                                        #24.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:38 AM EDT
                                                                        GregL-671049

                                                                        GOD is NOT GOP,

                                                                        Just what are your credintels?

                                                                        President Bush flew a fighter plane in the National Guard...Do you suppose that just any dummy can do that? He may have stammered and had a halting speech, but a dummy? I don't think so...

                                                                          #24.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
                                                                          LetsBeReasonable

                                                                          Flying an outdated fighter plane that was no longer used in Viet Nam is not hard.

                                                                            #24.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
                                                                            GOD is NOT GOP

                                                                            My "credintels?" I see why you are so easily impressed, Greg.

                                                                              #24.5 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 1:21 PM EDT
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                              Scott-461700

                                                                              Obama now going over to make whoopee with the Muslim world.  He is going to tell them we all need to respect each other.  Doesnt that feel good!  The only thing that the terrorists will respect is strength.  If we go along the route that Jimmy Carter took, we will have more of the same attacks, hijackings, killings.  The great one, Ronald Reagan did it best.  The main focus of the government should be a strong military. 

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #26 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:01 AM EDT
                                                                              CARL THE PLUMBER

                                                                              And PO said it is not a bad thing that Iran have nuclear power plants for electricty. OK I would like to see 100 nuclear plants in th US.

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              #26.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:09 AM EDT
                                                                              gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                              Mad Cow III

                                                                              and Muslims who are honorable, wonderful human beings.

                                                                              Please name one.

                                                                                #26.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:12 AM EDT
                                                                                CARL THE PLUMBER

                                                                                Semper, gumbo could be one if he wasn't such an angry human being.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #26.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:14 AM EDT
                                                                                proud2bconservative

                                                                                You are correct in saying that terrorists and muslims are not the same thing, but they are very similar. And take a look at the religion of the known terrorists. I don't think you'll find many Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, Shinto, or Christian terrorists. But you will find an awful lot of MUSLIM TERRORISTS.

                                                                                  #26.5 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:15 AM EDT
                                                                                  Mad Cow III

                                                                                  Scott

                                                                                  Liberals will go to any extreme to get that "feely good, warm and fuzzy" feeling. Their Kumbiah / give peace a chance asshat approach to conflict is about as worthless as Congress and this administration!

                                                                                    #26.6 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:19 AM EDT
                                                                                    Mad Cow III

                                                                                    gumbo - Created by the French. Go figure!

                                                                                      #26.7 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:22 AM EDT
                                                                                      gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                      proud2bconservative

                                                                                      Don't use the statement about starting a conversation with facts when you've not stated a single one.

                                                                                      Let's talk about your statement on respecting Muslim religion and culture, which I completely agree with. The US has bent over backwards trying to appease Muslim radicals. But it is a one-way street. Do Muslim countries make any attempt to respect Christian religion and cultures? (Let's not even discuss Muslim respect for Jewish religion and culture). Take a look at US airports now, where we have put in Mosques for Muslims who are offended by multi-demoninational worship centers. I've traveled all over the world and in a lot of Muslim countries and have not yet seen a Christian worship room in a Muslim country. There is zero tolerance for anything not Muslim by the Muslims.

                                                                                        #26.9 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:37 AM EDT
                                                                                        Paul-457003

                                                                                        Peace through superior fire power. Boil it down to the most basic law of nature, only the strong survive...right now I would question how truly strong America is....based on the fools that are running the show, I'd say we're not very.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #26.10 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:44 AM EDT
                                                                                        gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                        simon cyrene cross-1080237

                                                                                        Muslims may not all be terrorist; however, to believe they do not wish to convert all of the world to Islaimc beliefs his misguided. The Muslims have been forcibly conquering and converting the Christian world for 1,500 years. (Please no one respond with the Catholic Church has done the same. It will show that you do not know your history.) Until the 1,700s they were the preeminent power in the world and killed millions of Christians. They enslaved millions of Christian from Europe and Africa. In fact they enslaved ten times as many people as did people from the US or any other region. Muslims are a cruel theocracy bent on world domination. What they lack at the moment is a unifying leader. Most Muslim scholars believe that this person will soon appear. Unite the Muslims and they will be in a position for world dominance again. Remember that abortion has allowed the Muslims to gain large voting blocks in Europe. By the year 2025 it is believe they will be large enough to control many European countries via the vote. The United State population has remained constant only because of the influx of Hispanic people.

                                                                                        Jihad will be on its way again. In the past negotiations with Muslim never worked. Their religion has remained just as it did in the past. There is no reason to believe that their culture has changed. They still profess the Sharia. They still promote theocracy.

                                                                                        The President needs to learn the history of the world. Clinton interfered in a religious jihad in Europe. The Muslims had been attacking Christians in the balkans from the 1,400s on. Each of these jihad were to force Islam on Chrisitians. Clinton supported the Muslims in this age old jihad and killed hundreds of thousand of Christians. He did the same in East Timor by allowing the Muslim military to kill 200,000 Catholics. His lack knowledge concerning history directly contributed to the death of over one million Christians. Obama appears to also lack basic knowledge concerning history. One can not deal with these people one country at a time. Or in blocks of a couple of decades. Muslims have been consistent for 1,500 years. They will continue.

                                                                                          #26.12 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:00 AM EDT
                                                                                          gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                          simon cyrene cross-1080237

                                                                                          Gumbo Dawg,

                                                                                          You defile the name Gumbo. (just kidding)

                                                                                          This country was founded on Christianity. Just because Obama doesn't know history doesn't make it true. (I know you will try to use Jefferson in your response. Please don't it will show that you do not know what you are talking about. To give you a hint. Jefferson was not part of the Continental Congress when the First Amendment was created. His letter to Danbury if read in its entirety shows that he supports religion. You might want to read his hand written first draft also. It will refute your silly notion.)

                                                                                          Let us talk about the central leader of the Founding Fathers. George Washington. Yes this person was part of the Continental Congress when the First Amendment was created. He fully believed our country was based upon Christian principles. When he was part of the House of Burgess he was part of the Committee for Religion. This Committee started with a prayer. This would continue in all aspect of his life. The first Continental Congress was brought to order by a prayer and reading Psalm 35. The Continental Congress actually made days of fasting and prayer a regular part of their duties. Washington particpated and supported these events. Noting in his diary "went to Church & fasted all day." Washington started the government paying for chaplains in the military. As Commander and Chief he forced his men to go to "Day of Public Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer". It is a shame that so many people either do not take the time to read about our Founding Fathers or they distort the truth. Obama is either very uneducated in this area or is lying when he states this country was not founded on Christian principles. So many people do not understand that this country was founded by 55 Founding Fathers and 52 of them were Christians and based this country on their beliefs.

                                                                                          PS: Jefferson had Church service in the Whitehouse every Sunday.

                                                                                            #26.14 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:25 AM EDT
                                                                                            simon cyrene cross-1080237

                                                                                            Gumbo Dawg,

                                                                                            Your statement is plain ignorant. You have not read anything on this subject have you? Tell me one book you have read concerning this issue. You haven't have you.

                                                                                            I know my history and have read many books by accredited historians on this subject. I have read their interpretations of the current issues and future issues. You are great with personal attacks; however, you know you don't know what you are talking about.

                                                                                            If you wish to debate this area you will lose. Come prepared with sources from credible authors and historians. I do not count Katie Couric and Keith Oberlman as credible.

                                                                                            You wish to give personal attacks. I am fine with that. I can do that too; but, before we do can you bring one credible source book to the discussion? Can you name one credible historian you have read? Don't cheat and look something up on Amazon.com. Have you read Lewis on this subject? If you have not please start.

                                                                                              #26.15 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:33 AM EDT
                                                                                              gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                              ToxicChemist

                                                                                              Dumbo Dawg, ask yourself this:

                                                                                              Not all muslims are terrorists, but how many of the terrorists were muslim?

                                                                                              BTW, I didn't realize I was living in "one of the greatest muslim countries."

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #26.17 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 11:35 AM EDT
                                                                                              simon cyrene cross-1080237

                                                                                              Nice try. You don't know what your talking about so you try and denigrate. When the Commander and Chief creates policy by the government to fund Christian chaplains or creates the policy that military men will attend Christian services it is policy. Note the person doing this was the leader of the Continental Congress and the first President that took the oath to uphold the Constitution. I could go on; however, it is a waste of time to try an educate someone that places personal interest above truth.

                                                                                              The shame of the matter is you try to delude others with your lack of knowledge. Even if you don't know anything about George Washington you should at least have been able to try and use Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin or Adams. ( I gave you a hint the next time you try and propose your nonsense. Of course when I refute it, it will help me show the world how much our country is based upon Chrisitian values. ) You do not even know enough about these three to pose a query. You also know nothing about Islam. Couldn't even present a credible source. Why do you vote if you do not take the time to learn the basics? Everything I presented was history 101 and you couldn't even refute any of it. That is sad.

                                                                                                #26.18 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 11:50 AM EDT
                                                                                                Bill M NY

                                                                                                And good old George also was cruel to his slaves. So what. His orders to his men were unlawful, not policy. No general can order troops to pray and fast, it is not legal to do so.

                                                                                                I will not quote Jefferson or Adams because they were both religious men, they just knew that separation was needed and they both spoke of the dangers of religion. Funny that those same writings could be used to show the dangers of our political party system.

                                                                                                I will however argue the historical context you seemed to have provided as justification of the killings under the Christian God. We could mention the Crusades, but that is simple. How about the conquest of south America? The enslavement, murder, and theft of the Native Americans lives and property? The trail of tears was not so long ago. Now I could not know my history, it could have been Muslims that ruthlessly conquered the Americas spreading he word of Jesus. But even all of that does not matter, because it was not the religion that these people followed, it was their governments. Religion was an excuse. Does anyone really think the Catholics and the Protestants were fighting in Ireland the last 400 years? No, it is the Irish fighting the British using religion as an excuse.

                                                                                                See, Dawg made a critical mistake in one of his comments, he stated "Every religion (under the guise of Government) has murdered, imprisoned, raped, tortured and oppressed other people/Religions."

                                                                                                More correctly, every government, under the guise of religion, has murdered, imprisoned, raped, tortured, and oppressed.

                                                                                                Let us not confuse Islam and Christianity with the power whores that use these religions as tools.

                                                                                                  #26.19 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 3:46 PM EDT
                                                                                                  simon cyrene cross-1080237

                                                                                                  Bill,

                                                                                                  First Washington's order were lawful as he was President of the Continental Congress and created the First Ammendment. Jefferson's letter to Danbury clearly states that government is not to impact religion. Religion is to impact government.

                                                                                                  Your mention of the Crusade shows you have not read about them. The Crusades were the result of hundreds of year of Muslims persecution of Christians. All of the Middle East and Europe were Christian. The Muslims continued to conquer and kill Christians for centuries. The Muslims had a massive armies for hundred of years as they enslaved young Christian boys and trained them in the military to kill Christians. The Pope united Christendom to protect Christians. Up until the 1700s when Poland, Hungary, Vienna and the The Holy Roman Empire united to destroy the strangle hold the Ottoman (Muslim) empire had on Christendom they went basically unchecked. I supposed that you will respond with the 4th Crusade. I will debate that all day long. If you study what occurred you would chose not to bring up that Crusade as it will only reinforce my premise.

                                                                                                  Perhaps you should read up on International Law a bit before you post. The First Internation Law created was by the Catholic Church to protect the natives in the Americas. Some countries did not follow this law. It also has to be noted that much of this supposed conquest of South America was against civilizations that believed in human sacrifice. Stop pretending that innocent natives were being killed and converted to Christianity. They were pagans that sacrificed thousands of people at a time.

                                                                                                  I will agree that governments have often used religion as an excuse to conquer. The difference with Muslims is the government and the religion are one and the same. In the United State we have freedom of religion. This does not mean religion does not impact the government. Without Christian morality this country is nothing. As we can see as moral relativism spreads.

                                                                                                    #26.20 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
                                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                                    jmarmont

                                                                                                    Obviously, this judge is a candidite for O'Bama's Supreme court

                                                                                                      Reply#27 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:24 AM EDT
                                                                                                      jmarmont

                                                                                                      Hmmm, It's now ok for Iran to have nuclear energy, but it's not ok to build more nuclear powr plants in the US. Yep, consistancy (and truth) are not the strong points of this president.

                                                                                                        Reply#28 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:26 AM EDT
                                                                                                        Danno-758755

                                                                                                        Unless one has a degree in economics and/or has studied economic factors in depth, one should not comment on who caused the current economic downturn. One of the key factors in the current economic situation was the issuance of subprime loans by financial instutions that were subsequently hit by record numbers of defaults on said loans. If one must blame a particular president then single out Jimmy Carter who initiated and instituted pressure on financial businesses to offer more loans to individuals that would not have normally met the requirements for said loans. This was later formalized via a congressional bill. With this said remember that we live in a world economy and that previous restrictive tariffs have been eliminated or reduced on foreign goods imported into the United States. Thus what happens in the world economy affects us much greater than in the past. There are no simple answers.

                                                                                                          Reply#29 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:30 AM EDT
                                                                                                          gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                          Paul-4843

                                                                                                          Mr. Dawg, apparently you didn't see my response to your post above so here it is again:

                                                                                                          Mr. Dawg, Believe it or not I don't listen to Rush. However this is from your post:

                                                                                                          "This situation is extremely complicated and mostly the fault of Bush and Cheney who imprisoned thousands of innocent people and made a mockery of the concept of American justice. If you did not like your neighbor in Iraq, all you had to do was report them as a possible terrorist. Bang, Gitmo!!"

                                                                                                          So to my point of same old talking points. Please tell me where you found out that thousands of "innocent" people were imprisoned. Also please show me where a neighbor turned in another neighbor in Iraq and that neighbor was sent to Gitmo. We'll start there and if you can point me to an unbiased site where these stories aired you have my apologies.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          Reply#30 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:35 AM EDT
                                                                                                          Paul-4843

                                                                                                          Mr. Dawg are you still out there?

                                                                                                            #30.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
                                                                                                            gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                                            proud2bconservative

                                                                                                            gumbo dawg - We've also released prisoners who have gone right back to Iraq/Afghanistan and resumed their fight against American servicemembers. We shouldn't even address our justice system and the detainees in the same context. The detainees should not be subject to our justice system, they committed no crime in this country and should not accorded the same rights as our citizens. And I can't understand why anybody would want to bring them into our country and put them in our prisons. Why? Let them rot where they are, or better yet, put them in prison back in Iraq or Afghanistan and let them rot there.

                                                                                                              #30.3 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:02 AM EDT
                                                                                                              Paul-4843

                                                                                                              I agree with you on some fronts and disagree on others but don't have time to expound on that right now. Just want to convey that anyone with a differing opinion is not automatically a stead fast follower of conservative talk shows. We're not all gun toting rednecks and we likely agree on more things than we disagree on. You sound like an intelligent person however you also come across as somewhat shrill and condescending. That takes away from your argument.

                                                                                                                #30.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                                gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                                                gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                Paul-457003

                                                                                                                Detainee policy? That's what happens when you put wimps in charge......either we step up and become the world police or we mind our own business (which is what I'd prefer).

                                                                                                                However what the wimps in DC fail to realize is that there are some very bad people on this planet and if we are in fact going to fight them, there's a lot that comes with that.....these fools in DC want their cake and be able to eat it too....it simply doesn't work that way.

                                                                                                                They want to apply logic and rules to something that shouldn't have any rules, only "war time rules" should apply and if they don't have the stomach for it, then let's pull the hell out and mind our own business.

                                                                                                                Like I've always said, if you pick a fight be prepared to see it through to the end and finish the job, either that or stay the hell out of harms way. We f'd up in Somalia, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq (both times), Afghanistan, Cuba....the list goes on and on and on....

                                                                                                                why is it people that have absolutely no experience in fighting, the military and let alone been in an actual fight themselves instantly think that because they're elected the have all the answers and start dictating policy? Just an observation based on our past history.

                                                                                                                  Reply#31 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  proud2bconservative

                                                                                                                  Keep in mind that very few of our elected officials have served in the military, even fewer have been in combat. They make a quick trip to Iraq (never leaving the Green Zone) or Afghanistan (never leaving Kabul), do the 'grip and grin' photo ops to prove they have been there, and then come home and tell the American People that they have 'been there and know what it is like'. What a bunch of clowns.

                                                                                                                    #31.1 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:44 AM EDT
                                                                                                                    Mad Cow III

                                                                                                                    And don't omit Madame Clinton's sniper fire incident!! What a little trooper she was!

                                                                                                                      #31.2 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:59 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                                                      Mad Cow III

                                                                                                                      the simple fact is that we cannot win wars fought in these nations on their land with conventional weapons.

                                                                                                                      Correction: the simple fact is that we cannot win wars fought in these nations on their land with an inept Congress and administration calling the shots.

                                                                                                                      Example: My reconnaissance team observed miles of vehicles on the Ho Chi Minh trail the day after big Ho's death. This went on for two days around the clock. A cease fire was called to honor him, which resulted in countless US losses due to those uncontested resupply efforts in broad daylight.

                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                      #31.4 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:06 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      proud2bconservative

                                                                                                                      gumbo dawg - Who brought up nuking? Yes, we could have won wars in those countries if we would have fought the war like a war, instead of tip-toeing around and trying to avoid offending anybody. Refusing to cross arbitrary lines, not bombing legitamite targets for fear of hurting someone else (who shouldn't have been there in the first place). We have hamstrung our military in order to make the US more 'politically correct'.

                                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                                      #31.5 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:11 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      gumbo dawgDeleted
                                                                                                                      proud2bconservative

                                                                                                                      Well, G-dawg, some agreement is better than none. I still question bringing terrorists captured on in a war zone into this country for trial. What do you charge them with? Many of the terrorists now in custody are responsible for attacking our soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan. This may sound strange, but I don't consider them terrorists at all, I consider them enemy combatants. May also sound strange but I don't think they should have even been taken out of Iraq/Afghanistan. If we had kept them there, we probably wouldn't even be discussing this now. Gitmo is high-profile. Detainee centers in Iraq/Afghanistan are hardly ever mentioned in the news (I know, I know, Abu Ghraib).

                                                                                                                        #31.7 - Wed Jun 3, 2009 10:37 AM EDT
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