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Hair bands forever! Grunge never!

Sun Jun 7, 2009 8:45 PM EDT
music, internet, people, only-on-msnbc-com, hair, rock, metal, bands, motley-crue
msnbc.com News — Tony Sclafani, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com
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— They were gaudy. They were loud — in all senses of the word. And 20 years ago, they were pretty much inescapable.

Who were “they?” They were the “hair bands” of the 1980s that dominated MTV, filled concert halls, and offended the sensibilities of a lot of rock critics. Back in 1989, rap and R&B had yet to dominate the mainstream, and instead of hip-hop, kids were listening to Bon Jovi, Great White, Warrant, White Lion, Tesla, L.A. Guns and Skid Row.

Album covers offered outlandish images of the massively coiffed musicians in bands such as Winger, Poison, Europe, Cinderella, Slaughter, Vixen, Whitesnake, Faster Pussycat, Black ’n Blue and Britny Fox (a band, not a porn star). And then there were the bands that just managed to elude the “hair” tag, but were beloved by the same audience, such as Guns N’ Roses, Motley Crue and Def Leppard.

Some of these bands were heavy metal lite, others were glam metal and still others were closer to hard rock. No matter. What all these bands had in common, of course, was hair, so they were lumped into the same category — the same way the Rolling Stones and Herman’s Hermits got categorized as British Invasion bands because they both wore bangs.

The hair bands also all had something else in common that really united them: a keen pop sensibility. They made singles that were as well-crafted as they were underappreciated. Sure, these aforementioned bands aren’t all brilliant, but when examined collectively, the amount of great songs from that era is staggering (Google any of the above bands and you’re bound to be directed to at least one fantastic half-forgotten hit on YouTube).

When grunge music came into vogue in late 1991, almost all of these bands went out of style instantly. Few critics shed tears.

Grunge bands, after all, didn’t objectify women like Motley Crue did in “Girls, Girls, Girls.” Grunge musicians might have done drugs, but they didn’t flaunt it as a glamorous lifestyle. And they didn’t go around wearing T-shirts with offensive slogans like “AIDS: Kills Fags Dead.” They also wrote more thoughtful lyrics, and critics tend to give lyrics far more importance than music (a good example being Ron Rosenbaum’s recent Slate takedown of Billy Joel, which assails Joel’s lyrics but never even mentions the actual music).

Two decades on, it looks like the critics were wrong about the hair bands. So what if they were distasteful? Rock ’n’ roll started out offending polite society, after all. Looking back at the massive number of hair band hits, it’s evident these bands were better pop craftsmen than many of the rock artists who followed. Their fist-raising choruses, ripping lead guitars and unappreciated funky rhythm sections often produced rock of the highest order. The turgid, hyper-serious hits by Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and, yes, Nirvana might mean more lyrically, but are musically less interesting, especially when removed from the context of those bands’ careers. Hair band music actually now seems more potent outside of its element.

And when it comes down to it, you can’t hum a lyrical idea. Bands like Whitesnake weren’t afraid to put some pop in their rock, which is what separated them from their metal elders and most of the grunge acts that followed.

Metal’s dark roots
Go back to the beginnings of heavy metal, says critic Chuck Eddy, and you get bands who drew from the blues, like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple. Fast forward to the second wave of metal, and you’ll find bands like Judas Priest, AC/DC and Iron Maiden, who ratcheted up the noise factor.

But in that second wave of metal came a band from California that perhaps inadvertently epitomized the pop history of its home state. “The real band that made hard rock be this kind of poppy, sunny stuff was Van Halen,” Eddy explains. “It was like they crossed Deep Purple and the Beach Boys. They had an idea that you could make hard, hard, hard rock that’s also pop music.”

Van Halen’s musical influence and the somewhat ironic lyrical posturing of lead singer David Lee Roth weren’t lost on the bands that followed. Toward the end of that second wave, American acts Twisted Sister and Quiet Riot, and the young British group Def Leppard proved metal could be pop-friendly and play well on MTV.

Out in L.A., glam metal was originated when Motley Crue took their visual cues from the obscure Finnish group Hanoi Rocks. The scene eventually produced L.A. Guns which begat Guns N’ Roses. These bands drew as much from glam acts like the New York Dolls as metal.

“The L.A. glam scene informed metal and they fused themselves together,” explains Donna Gaines, a Columbia University professor who examined the subculture of heavy metal fans in her book “Teenage Wasteland: Suburbia’s Dead End Kids.” “So these pretty boy bands emerged from it. I think that the glam aesthetics also brought in girl fans, who had been marginalized in the earliest metal scenes.”

But as the butch posturing of earlier metal forms were giving way to more pop-friendly sounds out west, something entirely different was brewing on the East Coast. With a little help from songwriter-for-hire Desmond Child, Bon Jovi’s 1986 sophomore album, “Slippery When Wet,” became a mega-hit and arguably the most influential hair band record of all time. It’s telling that the roots of the songs are not in metal — or even hard rock.

“When I was writing the songs I was writing I wasn’t writing for a genre,” explains Child, who co-wrote the smashes “Livin’ on a Prayer” and “You Give Love a Bad Name,” among many others. Child says he brought in influences “from the singer-songwriter music of Laura Nyro, Joni Mitchell, Elton John, Carole King and Stevie Wonder and put them into hard rock.”

Jon Bon Jovi’s jovial image also helped metal become friendlier to the masses. When the singer smiled in his videos (a surprising thing at the time), he made it OK for metalers to be cute instead of threatening. The stage was set for toothful singers like Warrant’s Jani Lane and Skid Row’s Sebastian Bach, both of whom could never have fit into any scene that included Iron Maiden.

The songs, not the singer
But then, Iron Maiden never came up with Top 40 hooks as beguiling as those in Skid Row’s “I’ll Remember You,” a song that could probably work in most any style. Second wave metalers also didn’t do many ballads, and it’s here the hair bands cornered the market with a subgenre called (brace yourselves) the power ballad.

Depending who you believe, this subgenre had its origins in the music of Journey and Foreigner or the Beatles’ “Hey Jude.” Whatever the case, power ballads gave hair bands some of their most enduring hits, like “Every Rose Has its Thorn,” “Wanted: Dead or Alive” and “When the Children Cry.” These songs were considered marketing ploys to bring in female fans, but Gaines notes that a lot of her guy friends genuinely “connected with these songs” in a way they didn’t with the rockers.

Eddy says the power ballads have had a lasting influence on music, but not in the place you’d expect. While hard rock bands these days take their cue from Nirvana or even the Beastie Boys, country performers have copped the power ballad style (with Rascal Flatts’ recent “Here Comes Goodbye” a good example).

“There’s no question that a country station today does not sound like a country station did 15 or 20 years ago,” Eddy notes. “Part of that is you have all these power ballads. I mean, Carrie Underwood had a hit with a Motley Cure cover recently (“Home Sweet Home”). I think that started probably with Garth Brooks being into KISS.”

It makes sense, then, Eddy says, that Brett Michaels of Poison, Tom Keifer of Cinderella and Jon Bon Jovi have all recorded in Nashville recently. Former hair band musicians probably also feel an affinity with country audiences because, like country, metal in all its forms primarily drew a blue collar fan base (Deanna Weinstein noted in her book about the subject).

And this may be the main reason hair bands get so little respect (well, that and the ridiculous hair). Back when Warrant and company were ruling the mainstream airwaves, the place they weren’t getting played was college radio. College radio was mostly listened to by people who went to college, hence its name. Since most rock critics went to college, they came out of a somewhat elitist culture where hair metal was disdained as music listened to by the unwashed, uncultured masses (confession: I was a product of the very culture I’m now calling elitist).

But 20 years later, all of this is academic — pardon the pun. Hair bands might have been trashed by reviewers (check the Rolling Stone Record Guides for proof), but good songs win out regardless of genre, which is why radio stations play disco on Saturday nights. When more and more kids get to hear catchy songs like Poison’s “Nothin’ But a Good Time” on Internet stations without knowing hair metal’s bad rep, odds are this much-maligned genre will prove it can stand the test of time as well.

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schnoo

Hair bands like suck, man.

  • 6 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 9:49 PM EDT
aspyne

This article made me sad, very sad. I want to live in a world where 'hair bands' never come back in style.

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 10:29 PM EDT
MarkD-555

Grunge to Hairband- You are so fake! You dress up and worry about your looks for concerts. Sellout!

Hairband to Grunge- And you wear the crappiest T-shirt and jeans you can find on purpose so you look "Real" and work for the same record industry. Who's fake?

At least hairbands bother to dress up before getting in front of 10,000 people. They are there to entertain. Grunge needs to stop worrying so much about being "real" and just entertain and have fun.

  • 4 votes
#2.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 5:02 PM EDT
Steve Papa

Ill take "I wanna rock and roll all night and party every day" over "I hurt myself today", "I want to eat your cancer while you turn black" and "theres no time to discriminate hate every MF er that gets in your way" any day of the week. As for chops, Warrants "Uncle Toms Cabin", Whitesnakes "Still of the night" and many others prove there was some musicianship under those long locks.

  • 2 votes
#2.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 9:58 PM EDT
Reply
mek67

Interesting sorta...just a quick note as why this guy uses Iron Maiden as a bashing stick. They are bigger than any of the bands he mentioned (bigger today than ever around the world) and had many Top 20 or better hits over the years (OK...not so much in the U.S. in terms of singles)...but many in the U.K. and elsewhere. And that's also because they wrote great songs.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 10:34 PM EDT
estcst

Yeah, I never seen Iron Maiden as hair. They always seemed to be a legitimate metal band to me. I'm not a big fan but I have to give credit where it's due.

  • 2 votes
#3.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
LouisRaritan

Heck yeah!  Iron Maiden was cool back when they didn't blow it by telling you it was really classical music with distortion pedals.  They gave that angry chubby kid with curly long hair a t-shirt to wear.....along with that cool spiked leather wrist strap.  We all liked the 80's rock bands because they let us fly our freak flags.  I think bands took more risks because they didn't have focus groups and marketing companies to fall back on and we appreciated thier honesty.  Well, that and we didn't have youtube to create overnight fads with.  When a song came out on the radio....that was the first time you heard it....they didn't have pirated copies on the internet (same for movies).  Things were a lot simpler over 25 years ago...HOLY CR*P im getting old.

  • 2 votes
#3.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 7:24 PM EDT
BenCT

The phrase "Heavy Metal" was first applied to 4th album by Iggy and the Stooges, "Mettallic K.O."

    #3.3 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:56 PM EDT
    Reply
    sdguy

    Grunge was the essence and musical maturity that hair bands never grew to .... and G&R is not a hair band

    • 6 votes
    Reply#4 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 10:35 PM EDT
    Lea-392690

    The author didn't say Guns and Roses was a hair bad.

      #4.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
      DC Dude

      Not quite, but pretty much: "And then there were the bands that just managed to elude the “hair” tag, but were beloved by the same audience, such as Guns N’ Roses, Motley Crue and Def Leppard."

        #4.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 9:02 PM EDT
        mek67

        If you wanna call sticking a shotgun in your mouth "emotional maturity."

          #4.3 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 11:27 PM EDT
          Reply
          V...

          Did this article REALLY say that hair bands were musically more interesting than Soundgarden and Nirvana??? WTF??? Is there no editor to weed out this nonsense disguised as journalism?

          • 6 votes
          #5 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 10:42 PM EDT
          sfs

          The hair bands were much more fun to listen to.

          • 4 votes
          #5.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 8:46 AM EDT
          V...

          Fun is relative, and completely dependent upon personal taste (or in the case of hair bands, lack of taste)...

          But to say that they were MUSICALLY MORE INTERESTING??? Soundgarden had insane time signatures and changes, strange guitar tunings, and visceral energy... where as hair bands songs were formulaic easy to digest ear candy, performed by wannabe transvestites.

          This really is apples and oranges, and based on taste. There's no way to make this anything other than just opinion.

          • 4 votes
          #5.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
          Lea-392690

          Well, what you like really depends on your age. Nirvana, UUUGGGHHHHH! BARF!!!!!

          • 1 vote
          #5.3 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:00 PM EDT
          estcst

          Age has nothing to do with it unless you let it.

          While I was in high school prior to the big grunge explosion I was normally listening to a lot of bands that ended up being the foster parents to the music. And while I still listen to a good deal of punk and alternative (pre-Nirvana alternative) I have no problem with being seen in public wearing a Floyd, Rush or Tangerine Dream concert shirt. I listen to the music for the music, not the time or social niche that it encompassed in it's time.

          Forget looking at the copyright date. There's great music in every era as long as you drop your preconceptions of what music should be based on it's age.

          • 4 votes
          #5.4 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
          Craig P-1072184

          Yeah, I was shocked by that line. Fun? perhaps depending on your definition, but more interesting musically? I think not.

          Maybe it's because I grew up with the stuff, but I've always loved music from the grunge era and I don't listen to a single hairband (and no Guns N' Roses never was a hairband, they were in another league entirely).

          This view is reflected by local rock stations in my area that never seem to touch hairbands (the closest that they ever seem to get is "Pour Some Sugar on Me" or "Shout at the Devil" ) but still regularly play songs by Alice in Chains, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc. on a daily basis.

          As for as I'm concerned, hair bands are for trashy cougars and guys with mullets who like to wash their T-bird on weekends and I'm sure it will stay that way.

          • 1 vote
          #5.5 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
          Steech

          Age has more to do with it than you might think, but it works under a devious guise: nostalgia. My thinking brain abhors the proto-hesh mule men of 1991 Seattle, but stimulate the lizard brain with a few too many beers and I want to hear Alice in Chains - and sing along, loudly. Since my teenage years actually stand astride the Nevermind divide, I react much the same way to Skid Row (it just takes more drinks to get there).

          A younger friend of mine demonstrates the same neurological response to Slipknot as the night drags on. Another to Coheed and Cambria, and so on.

          As to the debate over which is better: Grunge or Glam... I'd say the glam dudes were better musicians overall, but the stoners had a more direct link to the emotive plane of rock and roll.

          If you're a musician, try to learn one of those dumb funk metal jams. You can't, unless you like learning music the way you memorized the quadratic equation. However, the cathartic thrill of recreating Mudhoney's sound and riffing on "Touch Me I'm Sick" or tackling the feedback sculpture of Smashing Pumpkin's "Drown" feels like channelling some greater spirit of the universe.

          I contest the genius of the lyrics of either though. There is nothing in "'Boiling heat, summer stench / 'Neath the black, the sky looks dead / Call my name through the cream and I'll hear you scream again" that's in any way superior to "You look at me so funny / Love bite got you acting so strange / You got too many bees in your honey / Am I just another word in your page?" The former is like a doped up Coleridge, the latter a depraved Dr. Seuss. Niether is anything to get particulary excited about, if you ask me.

            #5.6 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 4:50 PM EDT
            BenCT

            Nirvana was not the be-all-end-all of "Grunge," they were the first of their kind to get radio play. Personally, I don't care what you call it or when it's from, as long as it's loud and fast and distorted, and it p!sses old people off (oops, I'm not so young anymore) LOL.

            Mudhoney, circa 1991

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNj7ZyZy7cw

              #5.7 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:07 PM EDT
              BenCT

              Early Bad Brains...

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqQtoMyi2xQ

              blew up all the hair bands... they just didn't know they were dead... zombies...

                #5.8 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:23 PM EDT
                sikchimp

                A telling difference between '80 hair bands and grunge? The grunge artists hated the genre... look at kurt- he held nothing but disdain for the poor musical tastes of his fans (and ultimately himself for giving it to them) remember, Nirvana wasn't a grunge band until they found out they couldn't sell a metal record. layne, too, hated the stylistic limits of grunge, and the unofficial 'rules' to maintain your grunge bonefides. The later Alice in Chains discs show him over and over again trying to break the chains of 'agnst rock', but his audience would only accept more 'music to slit your wrists to.' Soundgarden?!? Exactly how grunge-like is Chris Cornell now?

                Is there a single major grunge band still playing? I suppose if you count Stone Temple Pilots. any others? But there are a TON of hair bands still out there, from Dokken to Extreme, most of them, actually, are still recording and touring.

                I think any comparison will just show the biases of the person comparing. I would say that the musicians were much more skilled and educated in the '80 's , but they lost the voice of the young people, and grunge stepped in to fill the void. a rough fit, and soon rap became the music of the next wave. but there's alot of room on an ipod for all of it.

                • 2 votes
                #5.9 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 11:00 PM EDT
                jjr-1145357

                "Is there a single major grunge band still playing?"

                Pearl Jam

                The greatest American rock band ever

                  #5.10 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 6:05 AM EDT
                  Steech

                  There are a lot of "grunge" bands still playing. Pearl Jam is worthy of more respect than most because they've jettisoned the flannel and the natty locks in favor of a more grown-up, big boy look and sound. I don't particularly relate to their music, but I do recognize they're not clinging too desperately to the glory days.

                  More bands are trying to "re-invent" themselves with a new sound that's just a morose imitation of themselves at 21. While these guys claim to gain new fans, you have to admit most of those fans are stupid, drunk, depraved community college dropouts - not the most discriminating base.

                  More gruesome still is the number of second and third generation bands (a lot of people call "hesh"), who were informed by the grunge bands but haven't realized the experiment is over (or that the experiment failed). If you like video games about extreme motocross or singing mules, Nickelback and Hinder are for you.

                  A few notable exceptions stand out though. Mark Lanegan (of Screaming Trees fame) has had a pretty good career since "Nearly Lost You." More than any other single person, I think Lanegan managed to both recover from obscurity and reclaim indie status. Lanegan had two acclaimed collaborations in 2008, one with Isobel Campbell (of Belle & Sabastian) and one with Greg Dulli (Afghan Whigs), called The Gutter Twins.

                  Some of the bands whose extant careers got a gravitational slingshot by the grunge boom are still considered relevant. Sonic Youth is touring again, and Dinosaur Jr. is still making decent music. It's a couple of years old now, but The Lemonheads actually released a very good record in 2006 (though their irrelevance is soon to be renewed when a CD of cover songs is released later this month).

                  The most interesting thing I've heard from the old school in ages, by far, is Grand Duchy, Frank Black's latest collaboration, with his wife Violet Clark. It's only peripheral to grunge, of course, since the Pixies can be more closely alligned to the reclamation of American music in the 1980s. But Frank had some great discs that ran alongside the most ostentatious fare the grunge era.

                  I agree with Ben, that punk rock (and new wave) kind of annihilated the argument even before it was born. But, the work of punk rock was done in secret. The abuses of glam and grunge carried on like oblivious, tough hided giants with no thought to their consequences or what might be happening below their feet.

                  This has been a fun talk. So much more rewarding than the usual political stuff.

                  • 1 vote
                  #5.11 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 9:11 AM EDT
                  sikchimp

                  Crap, forgot about the Jam. Sorrry, good call.

                    #5.12 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:21 PM EDT
                    Steech

                    The Jam hasn't played together since the early 80s. Paul Weller still tours as a solo act.

                      #5.13 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
                      sikchimp

                      meant pearl jam, as you well know, steech. ;-)

                        #5.14 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 3:22 PM EDT
                        V...

                        Steech...

                        You put Mark Lanagan out there, but didn't mention his best collaboration... Queens of the Stone Age... One of the better modern bands around today... and when he gets involved with them that gravel voice just sits perfectly in their songs....

                        Queens of the Stone Age (or QOTSA) evolved from Kyuss in the 90's... a band not quite "grunge", but of a genre given the lovable moniker "stoner rock".

                          #5.15 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 6:03 PM EDT
                          BenCT

                          All the labels are just different names for ROCK AND ROLL. When the music gets boring and lame, young kids jump up and form a band, and create a new style. Guitar, drums, bass, powerchords, teenage rebellion... it's all ROCK no matter what you call it. Which style is better? It either rocks or it flops. If it sounds good while driving your beater way too fast, pimple face kid on a mission to get laid, it just might be ROCK. If it drives your parents crazy, gets you suspended from school for wearing a band T shirt, it just might be ROCK. If crazy Christians burn records of your favorite band, if teenage killers use it as a defense in their murder trial, it is definitely ROCK!

                            #5.16 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 6:18 PM EDT
                            Steech

                            V... I did not know about his role in Queens of the Stone Age. You learn something new everyday. I almost mentioned his work with The Twilight Singers, but as it sort of overlaps The Gutter Twins, I felt it best to skim over it.

                            I wanted to chime in about your feelings toward Soundgarden. I recently listened to Loud Love, Flower, and Badmotorfinger again, after many years of not listening to anything like it. I was surprised at how much Black Sabbath is in there. I was amazed at how primal the music was.

                            Badmotorfinger was my favorite record of whatever year that was... 1991? I wish they'd remaster it, because I think a lot is wasted in the present mix. I don't know if the producer was clueless or what, but Ben and Kim are raging against the bars of the "rusty cage" the super slick production creates. Songs like "Slaves & Bulldozers," "Mind Riot," and "Jesus Christ Pose" are so powerful. But the production is so sanitized. I wish they'd let someone go nuts with the original master and transform it into a serious rock record.

                            As for Screaming Trees, I've developed a love affair with Clairvoyance. Sister Anesthesia is better each time I listen. I think Sweet Oblivion has the same problem as Badmotorfinger (completely out of touch production), but the songs come through nonetheless.

                            I'd love to hear your thoughts. We first met during a fierce discussion of Palestine. It's much nicer to talk about something less politically charged. A new Sonic Youth record came out today. Can't decide whether to listen to it or not though. Have you heard it? Do you care?

                            Sikchimp... I see now that you must have meant Pearl Jam. I don't know if I was on crack or what, but I didn't make that connection earlier. Sorry. I'm obviously not as quick as I think I am... Sorry about that. I guess I looked like a big, old jerk. Nope, just stupid.

                              #5.17 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 8:00 PM EDT
                              V...

                              Steech....

                              Yeah... Lanagan wasn't on the last one, but on the first 4 QOTSA albums I think he sings like 2 or 3 songs on each one. Good stuff.

                              I agree with what your saying about the production on Badmotorfinger... but I did like it on the last 2 albums...maybe the songs just fit it better.

                              Haven't heard the new sonic youth... I'm mildly curious.... I'm kind of in a heavier mood lately... I went to see Metallica in January, and one of the opening bands was an Austin band called "The Sword"... They sound like direct descendants of Sabbath, but their riffs are really good so you don't mind the slight rip-off factor involved.... vocals aren't great but they're good enough... they're worth a listen if you're so inclined... maybe even just youtube some stuff if you have good speakers...

                                #5.18 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:55 AM EDT
                                BabbleWorthy

                                The grunge artists hated the genre... look at kurt- he held nothing but disdain for the poor musical tastes of his fans (and ultimately himself for giving it to them) remember, Nirvana wasn't a grunge band until they found out they couldn't sell a metal record. layne, too, hated the stylistic limits of grunge, and the unofficial 'rules' to maintain your grunge bonefides.

                                What? Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Nirvana never wanted to be a metal band. They were punk that got a new label.

                                I can't stand the metal bands. I think their music is pop with guitars and their personas were gross. That said, they had their place and they still have tons of fans. Music is subjective. I wouldn't expect the party boy kegger dude to hang out and listen to the Pixies.

                                  #5.19 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:01 AM EDT
                                  Steech

                                  The Sword is pretty good. I admire a band with song titles like "Fire Lances of the Hyperzypherions" and the chops to pull it off. You may already know about them, but when it comes to channelling the essence of Sabbath, my money's always been well spent on Electric Wizard (UK). If you can imagine a band making a whole career from the Sabbath song "Cornucopia," you'd really dig it.

                                  I have friends in the Austin music scene (everyone from my part of the country moves to either Austin or Athens (GA)). I caught a lot of shows before and after SXSW, as bands were passing through on the way to Austin. It's an incredible scene there. I'm very envious.

                                  I know Soundgarden made some records after Badmotorfinger, but I couldn't hang. I think I liked one song on Superunknown ("Fell on Black Days"). I compared the lyrics of "Black Hole Sun" to Coleridge ("Rime of the Ancient Mariner") in an earlier comment. I think Soundgarden tried to get too trippy and lost the visceral howl that defined their early catalog. I really dig Kim's playing. I'm a big admirer of fuzz pedals over traditional distortion pedals or tube screamers (don't know if you play guitar and know what that means).

                                  I've got the new Sonic Youth to listen to later this afternoon. I meant to listen to it last night, but ran out of time. Yesterday was very busy. I'm more of a fan of their 80s stuff than their 90s stuff. A bandmate of mine is big into them and is seeing them when they come through in July or August. Another friend has an all access pass for some reason. If I can go for free, I'll probably go. Otherwise, I plan to skip it. I'm terrified of seeing my idols diminished by the ravages of time and hubris. I try to stay positive, but...

                                    #5.20 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:22 PM EDT
                                    BenCT

                                    Check out the bridge in the Bad Brains clip. Queens of the Stone Age scored a hit single using that bridge.

                                      #5.21 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:37 PM EDT
                                      V...

                                      Yeah man, I actually tried to move to Austin a few years ago (from New York) but the job thing didn't work out the way I planned so I aborted. I may try again someday. Where do you live?

                                      Totally understand the fuzz pedal over distortion thing. I play guitar. I use a Skreddy Lunar Module (which is based on David Gilmour's Dark Side of the Moon tone... cost me $200, but goes for twice that when they pop-up on Ebay) and I just picked up a BYOC Big Muff Rams head clone, which I can't seem to find 5 free minutes to try out yet.

                                      You should go see Sonic Youth if they're your idols... Life ebbs and flows, and it's not reasonable to ask an artist to remain the same throughout their entire career (with exceptions like ACDC, and other one trick ponies).

                                      You should also get some QOTSA... Start with the third album "songs for the deaf" it has Dave Grohl playing drums, and some Lanagan singing on 3 songs I think as well.

                                      Is there a link to send messages on Newsvine, so we don't have to keep posting on this thread?

                                        #5.22 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:57 PM EDT
                                        Steech

                                        I think you can send comments through the profile page. I don't really know. I use Newsvine to blow off steam when work gets rough. I haven't studied it too much. You're welcome to comment on my profile page if you're tired of navigating to this one.

                                        I'll check out the Queens of the Stone Age. The only reason I missed them is that, for the period of about 1995 - 2005, I was kind of out of it. I was playing a lot of music, and going to a lot of shows. But I thought I was too good for the radio and scoffed anything on a major label. I'm still that way to a degree, but am getting over it. I'm catching up on what I missed in bits and pieces.

                                        I remember one Queens of the Stone Age song on the radio though... Had a riff that sounded a lot like "Four Horsemen..." Do you know which one I'm talking about?

                                        But, yeah... I'd love to hear about your guitar rig and if you've got some music out that I could find. I could talk forever about guitars and music. I don't want to drive you nuts. So comment whenever you get a chance, here or on my profile page.

                                          #5.23 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
                                          sikchimp

                                          babbleworthy- The first time I saw Nirvana, they were playing 2 bands ahead of mine at a Metal/Punk-ish battle of the bands kinda deal, at some high school outside Olympia. Keep in mind, in the late '80's, there was a large, very vague line between metal and punk. Suicidal Tendencies were crossing over hard, other punk ideas became very mainstream metal. were they punk? by my definition- can the guitar player actually play- hell no. Although his guitar playing was way too understated for me on Nirvana's commercial albums, the guy had chops, and was playing hard and fast. Punk has never been as much about genre as it is about attitude, which makes it really hard to draw arbitrary lines.

                                          punk guys- didn't really intend to imply there are no punk guitarists who can actually play. there is some great punk out there, some awesome cross-over stuff (didn't bad brains do the sabbath song "into the void"? AWE INSPIRING.) but there were ALOT of really bad punk guitarists out there, and at that time, I considered punk to be an entry-level position on the musical ladder. while i still think punk gave a musical voice to anyone that wanted to make some noise and be heard, i know that creedo gave us a ton of great music, and influenced heavily every musical style that has followed.

                                            #5.24 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:13 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            rachelwhite

                                            Hair bands and grunge both had their time and place and I remember both types of music very fondly. I don't see the need to compare them, though. We're talking apples and oranges.

                                            • 4 votes
                                            Reply#6 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 10:59 PM EDT
                                            Anrkist

                                            Agreed. I was a little late for hair bands... frankly, in my eyes, they are horrible. But it was it's own time and place. I have to at least respect that, even if I think it's a blight on the music industry... it's had so many.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #6.1 - Sun Jun 7, 2009 11:10 PM EDT
                                            shandi41

                                            I don't think they were a blight on the music industry. That is just how you feel because as you said, you were a little late for the hair bands. I wasn't. I grew up with them and I the bands I absolutely loved, then and now, are KISS, Motley Crue, and of course, the genius known as Queen. I wasn't into the videos or the looks of the men. I was into the sound of the music. I still love the rush I get when listening to Motley Crue live. It's just something you either love or hate. I'm glad I was born when I was (1969) and grew up with the music that I did. I can tell you that there are very few, if any, people in my graduating class that ever liked grunge. I think it all depends on when you were born and the music you grew up with.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #6.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 12:16 AM EDT
                                            sfs

                                            Anrkist,

                                            If you were a bit older, you might have enjoyed the music you currently say is horrible.

                                            I can't stand the current pop-cr*p out there....Rhianna, Lady Ga-ga, etc. My teenage babysitter loves it.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #6.3 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 8:50 AM EDT
                                            Steve Papa

                                            Im fifty and will play The Monkees"Plesent Valley Sunday" on minute and Megadeths "Architecture of Aggression" the next. I love it all, Mowtown, Metal, Prog, classic rock, stadium rock.....everything except Swedish death metal, I draw the line at Swedish death metal.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #6.4 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:08 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Ben861

                                            Ugh..... Grunge, in all its noisy demeanor, had great hooks. Hair Metal reminds me of bands like Nickleback minus the hair and the lengthy guitar solos. All style but no substance.

                                              Reply#7 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 12:50 AM EDT
                                              Tyler Durden-330839

                                              Re: Nickelbomb He bleats like a sheep.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #7.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 9:59 AM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              Drew-955850

                                              You really had to live in that musical era to appreciate it. Grunge is just the natural progression from hair bands. Blues=rock=metal=grunge=??? If anything was a blight on the music industry it was disco!!

                                              • 4 votes
                                              Reply#8 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 4:55 AM EDT
                                              sfs

                                              Hey...disco ain't so bad. Makes for better dancing then the crud passing for dance today.

                                              But, yes. You had to be a part of that music age to truly appreciate it. I love working out to the hair band stuff. And the ballads? How many couples had "their" song courtesy of a hairband? Many of those songs spoke to me as a teenager and the memories really flow back when I hear one.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #8.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 8:53 AM EDT
                                              Drew-955850

                                              Alot of these groups put out five or six albums but were best known for only one power ballad. you can't even listen to poison without thinking about every rose has it's thorns! Kiss had beth which was a peter criss song, I think it was autobiographical in nature. Those songs had meaning and feelings about them. Unlike todays songs which are mostly about drugs and killing cops! Disco was too lite for my taste. Twisted Sister rules!!!

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #8.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 12:04 PM EDT
                                              sfs

                                              Nothing like a good workout to "We're Not Gonna Take It." It's in my rotation :-)

                                              I tend to think of Poison's "Something to Believe In," but to each his own.

                                              And I'll agree with the drugs and cop-killing songs. Absolute trash.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #8.3 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:26 PM EDT
                                              ed-417892

                                              It's funny reading this article because a few weeks ago I rediscovered 'Something to Believe In' on Youtube, and have since put hair metal back in the rotation. I was 11 when I first heard that song but I don't think I ever really understood the lyrics until now.

                                              And as much as I liked Nirvana's music, I gotta say, I rarely go back to listen to it. But hair metal, I find myself revisting it at least every couple years.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #8.4 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:39 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              Gid-910919

                                              I'll take a hair band any day over grunge! The name "grunge" says it all!

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#9 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 6:46 AM EDT
                                              Lea-392690

                                              Rock on Dude!

                                                #9.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:04 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                sfs

                                                I'd much rather have my 9-yr-old daughter listen to hairband music than what's out there today.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#10 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 8:55 AM EDT
                                                BenCT

                                                And that's why hairband music sucks. Daddy doesn't mind it.

                                                  #10.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:37 PM EDT
                                                  BabbleWorthy

                                                  I think it's very important that you let your 9-year-old listen to band who think her only purpose is to grow up and be a whore.

                                                    #10.2 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    Tyler Durden-330839

                                                    Wake me when popular demand forces Jellyfish to reform, record and tour. In the meantime I'll just bitch about how I won't pay 250.00 for tickets to see Cheap Trick open for Poison and Def Leppard.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    Reply#11 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                                    BabbleWorthy

                                                    Jellyfish FTW!

                                                      #11.1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      Fletch-460651

                                                      I can't stand grunge...I think the only song I really dug was Man In The Box...why because it had guitar....when grunge came the guitar went away....the world needs a good pic slide I say.

                                                        Reply#12 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 12:20 PM EDT
                                                        Spookypaws

                                                        I am fortunate to be in the Gen-X'er age bracket that got to experience the hey-day of both types of music. I was in high school at the height of 'hair bands' and rocked out to Motely Crue, Metallica and Guns-n-Roses. I proceeded to college where I embraced Pearl Jam, Nirvana and Stone Temple Pilots.

                                                        In my opinion, the power ballad is the only thing really separating the two genres (outside of the fashion of course). Grunge music, while not guitar solo heavy in general, still had some very riveting and powerful music behind it. Stone Temple Pilots and Alice in Chains particularly had some very heavy chords in many of their songs. Music styles tend to change every 10 years or so, and it was time for something new in the 90's. The reason most of the 'hair bands' died out was because they couldn't reinvent themselves. Metallica and Motley Crue are two excellent examples of bands that have stayed popular and relevant, even through the 'Grunge years', because they were able to evolve their image and their music.

                                                        I still have my Motley Crue and Metallica cd's right next to my Pearl Jam and Nirvana! I love them both!!!

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        Reply#13 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                                                        mek67

                                                        Me too as above. I love Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains and Soundgarden (really didn't like Nirvana) AND I love Motley Crue. Though I really didn't like ALL "hair metal" especially after it got really watered down in the latter part of the eighties. The Poisons, Trixters, Warrants, Slaughter, Firehouses...all those guys really sucked. In fact, other than early Dokken, some Twisted Sister (first two albums), some Ratt (again, first couple), I would say I was more Iron Maiden, Judas Priest oriented than "hair" bands. I wouldn't even call Motley a "hair" band. They originated something that went beyond pure looks that kill. The rest that copied them...those were all hair and no balls.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        Reply#14 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 12:55 PM EDT
                                                        Roonas

                                                        "I mean, Carrie Underwood had a hit with a Motley Cure cover recently..." for pete's sake ... does no one edit the internet these days? Even our literary/news prints are becoming devoid of people whom actually read the pieces they edit rather than just hitting the Spell-Check™ button.

                                                        As for the debate, I myself was a fan of both styles of music, merely considering them all a part of the tapestry of what "rock" has and will continue to become. I, whom actually listens to the songs for lyrics as well as the melody and harmony, find there to be merit in both, with a slight edge given to Grunge for it's attitude change. I saw the departure at the end of Hair-Bands that relegated it to a "hit-factory" of recycled chords/choruses, only looking to repeat the same lasting power ballad. Grunge stepped outside of that forumla for a time, broke the mold as it were. Problem was, and as I grow older it becomes more apparent, the cycle of money returned and even Grunge fell into the trap of recycled sounds ... even on top of the higher social consciousness message ... it still fell prey to the industry of the industry.

                                                        Even now, as things fly out of the internet age at blazing speeds, its still the same ol' cycle of greed ruining art as it forms it into a business model.

                                                        Shroedingers cat for music - at any one time someone may or may not be listening to the same style or even the same song as you are. This means that the song may be alive, well and kickin' - or you might be listening to AM radio and your song is dead and buried, it just hasn't occured to you yet.

                                                        -Roon.

                                                          Reply#15 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
                                                          sfs

                                                          My local AM station is pretty cool. They actually play 80's alternative in their mix, another favorite genre of mine.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #15.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:30 PM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          Ron-744143

                                                          Van Halen described as "Deep Purple crossed with the Beach Boys"? Is this writer serious?

                                                          Maybe Chuck Eddy needs to listen to the second side of Van Halen II for songs like "DOA." Or maybe listen to the entire CD of "Fair Warning" or "Women and Children First."

                                                          Then come back and tell me how any of it resembles either Deep Purple or The beach Boys, combined or otherwise.

                                                          A shame to quote Chuck Eddy. He is an idiot.

                                                            Reply#16 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
                                                            Craig P-1072184

                                                            I've always loathed Van Halen and to compare them to either Deep Purple or The Beach Boys is an insult. David Lee Roth always annoyed me to no end, he looked and acted like an overgrown, hyper sexual 12 year old.

                                                            Also, I don't know why they keep playing their cover of "You Really Got Me" so often when the original by The Kinks is so much better.

                                                              #16.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 4:27 PM EDT
                                                              Maris-370108

                                                              You're wack...DLR is GOD! And their version of YRGM blows the Kinks away.

                                                                #16.2 - Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:52 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                tiredinokla

                                                                personally, i don't like it when music gets picked apart, analyzed, this band sounds like this one, etc. i think music is to be enjoyed and certain songs mean things to people. i also like several types of music. i have everything from tina turner, james brown, mamma and pappas, to 80s madonna, prince, to alice in chains, tool, and nine inch nails. wacky, but i love it all!

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                Reply#17 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
                                                                Erica-265759

                                                                my parents were hippies, so I have the Stones, the Who, Bob Segar; I have hair bands, Metallica, grunge and some of the newer alternative. I cannot stand rap or hip hop!

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #17.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:50 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                Todd-1144467

                                                                To me, Hair music had substance that Grunge never had. Hair music had the soul that Grunge never had.

                                                                And, musicianship and talent, Hair artists were 10x better than most grunge artists. Listen to Nuno Bettencourt play the guitar. Best guitarist in the last 30 years. (For those musically challenged out there, Nuno was/is the guitarist for Extreme)

                                                                And to those that think Hair was just a blip that left quickly, you are wrong. Winger, Extreme, Mr. Big, Sebastian Bach, Great White, Tesla, Bret Michaels, Warrant, Europe, all these bands that I just mentioned and MORE had albums out in 2008 and 2009.

                                                                In fact, Winger recieved a government award for it's album in 2008 for the lyrical justice and compassion it did for our soldiers.

                                                                These "Hair" bands, or as I prefer to call them "AOR" bands (Album Oriented Rock) were not about the one hit per album. The entire album would stand on its own.

                                                                For those interested in learning more about real music, www.melodicrock.com

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                Reply#18 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:38 PM EDT
                                                                Steve Papa

                                                                Nuno's first couple solo albums were really good too, love "Princess is here". Reb Beach, Warren Demartini, John Sykes, Mick Mars, Marty Friedman, George Lynch were all great hair band guitarists. The solo to "Home Sweet Home" gives me chills to this day.

                                                                  #18.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:25 PM EDT
                                                                  mek67

                                                                  Let's stop this "real music" nonsense shall we? Having albums out does not merit any credit any more than the ability to speak does not make one intelligent. And you especially shouldn't be trying act all superior when you just listed :

                                                                  Winger, Extreme, Mr. Big, Sebastian Bach, Great White, Tesla, Bret Michaels, Warrant, Europe

                                                                  Every single of one these pretty much sucks ass. Winger...the dork on Beavis and Butthead wore this shirt for a reason. Pussy and sucked. Mr. Big... are you kidding me? I Only wanna be with you is about as lame as it ever gets. Sebastian Bach is a pyscho celbutard...now the last few Skid Row albums with him were pretty damn rocking with no lame ballads, but since? No thanks. Brett Michaels... If you wanna go that far with Cher's voice amplifier...I think not. Warrant..Cherry Pie..end of story...weak. Tesla? Average at best. Europe...wow..Final Countdown...OK...you should seriously get back in the musical closet. Going public with this nonsense does nothing for your cred dude.

                                                                    #18.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 11:14 PM EDT
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    sturmkrahe60

                                                                    TOOL!!!!

                                                                    Enough said!

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    Reply#19 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:42 PM EDT
                                                                    Fletch-460651

                                                                    TOOL is in a category by themselves...and I really dig their music. They are like The Doors, or Pink Floyd, or Metallica...innovators, different, and good.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #19.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:46 PM EDT
                                                                    BenCT

                                                                    Metallica!!

                                                                      #19.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 11:46 PM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      Jay-1144503

                                                                      This piece is a little late. Hair music came back into style at the beginning of this decade, but is now fading again. The problem with this style of music is that it doesn't possess enough substance to keep its audience tuned in. Grunge found a wide following in those bored by the relentless "women, drugs, party" mantra of the big hair crowd.

                                                                      I, for one, am pleased to see grunge and alternative music making a comback among the younger generation. Both hair and grunge trump modern hip hop in the substance category.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      Reply#20 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 2:56 PM EDT
                                                                      ed-417892

                                                                      Both hair and grunge trump modern hip hop in the substance category.

                                                                      I'll have to disagree. I like both hair metal and grunge, but hip hop goes way deeper than either of em IMO. You just don't hear it on the radio.

                                                                        #20.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:54 PM EDT
                                                                        mek67

                                                                        Last time I checked, Motley Crue is pretty damn big still these days. And like I said, they aren't a hair band like the others that copied them...they had balls. Even though the source is weak, the quote is good:

                                                                        If you don't like Motley Crue, you don't like yourself. Dangerous themselves and others, but they NEVER pulled out a shotgun and blew their own head's off.

                                                                          #20.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 11:22 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          Lea-392690

                                                                          I loved all these 'hair bands'! Harder the metal the better. WASP! Loved WASP, and Blackie Lawless.

                                                                            Reply#21 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
                                                                            Gid-910919

                                                                            "ACCEPT"--"Balls to the wall"!!!

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #21.1 - Tue Jun 9, 2009 1:49 AM EDT
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            brokenrecord

                                                                            I hated that music, but I was friends with some people that loved it and they were the MOST fun to party with. :)

                                                                              Reply#22 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
                                                                              Lea-392690

                                                                              I have a question. After reading this editorial, what the h3ll is the author really trying to say? What's the purpose??? The article appears to do nothing but pick, tear apart, compare, and over analyze? Are they making a comeback? Cause I'd buy their stuff. I long for that music.

                                                                              And this chick.... Donna Gaines, a Columbia University professor who examined the subculture of heavy metal fans in her book "Teenage Wasteland: Suburbia's Dead End Kids." Is this what a University pays her to do. No wonder the tuition is so damn expensive when you want to send your kid to college.

                                                                              Can't we just enjoy the freakin' music for petes sake, without psychoanalyzing crap!?!?!?!??!

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              Reply#23 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
                                                                              Erica-265759

                                                                              I love both genres. the hair bands were from high school and the grunge for my 20's. I like to listen to my hair band cds while cleaning house. I make sure my kids know the bands from both eras, last summer my 16 yr old went to the Poison concert, without me, and loved it! Sure beats what they are listening to today!

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              Reply#24 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
                                                                              Lea-392690

                                                                              I don't have a problem listening to it while driving, loud with the windows down. My kids roll up the car windows on me!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              #24.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              Texasgirl-410963

                                                                              I grew up in the 80's and loved the hair band. I had the hair to prove it. The music was fun, about having a good time. Then grunge came along, it was ok, but it was so depressing and sad. Well, now we are hearing more of the hair band music coming back. I just wish it wasn't people like Carrie Underwood ruining "Home Sweet Home". That was a disgrace.

                                                                              The rock today seems to have more of the 80's influence, and I am loving it.

                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              Reply#25 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:38 PM EDT
                                                                              Erica-265759

                                                                              I had the big hair also, half a can of aquanet every couple of days!

                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              #25.1 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 3:51 PM EDT
                                                                              LouisRaritan

                                                                              The eighties punk scene was better. It was so angry and political. Haven't seen things that way in a long time. Its what our friends older brothers in college handed down to us.....kind of like the book in american pie.

                                                                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H7KcasScIU

                                                                                #25.2 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 8:29 PM EDT
                                                                                BenCT

                                                                                Repo Man! I got one for you, too. Subhumans...

                                                                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUlJSwm0w0&feature=related

                                                                                  #25.3 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 10:39 PM EDT
                                                                                  Reply
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