AP IMPACT: $2.5B spent, no alternative med cures

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BETHESDA — Ten years ago the government set out to test herbal and other alternative health remedies to find the ones that work. After spending $2.5 billion, the disappointing answer seems to be that almost none of them do.

Echinacea for colds. Ginkgo biloba for memory. Glucosamine and chondroitin for arthritis. Black cohosh for menopausal hot flashes. Saw palmetto for prostate problems. Shark cartilage for cancer. All proved no better than dummy pills in big studies funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. The lone exception: ginger capsules may help chemotherapy nausea.

As for therapies, acupuncture has been shown to help certain conditions, and yoga, massage, meditation and other relaxation methods may relieve symptoms like pain, anxiety and fatigue.

However, the government also is funding studies of purported energy fields, distance healing and other approaches that have little if any biological plausibility or scientific evidence.

Taxpayers are bankrolling studies of whether pressing various spots on your head can help with weight loss, whether brain waves emitted from a special "master" can help break cocaine addiction, and whether wearing magnets can help the painful wrist problem, carpal tunnel syndrome.

The acupressure weight-loss technique won a $2 million grant even though a small trial of it on 60 people found no statistically significant benefit — only an encouraging trend that could have occurred by chance. The researcher says the pilot study was just to see if the technique was feasible.

"You expect scientific thinking" at a federal science agency, said R. Barker Bausell, author of "Snake Oil Science" and a research methods expert at the University of Maryland, one of the agency's top-funded research sites. "It's become politically correct to investigate nonsense."

Many scientists say that unconventional treatments hold promise and deserve serious study, but that the federal center needs to be more skeptical and selective.

"There's not all the money in the world and you have to choose" what most deserves tax support, said Barrie Cassileth, integrative medicine chief at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York.

"Many of the studies that have been funded I would not have funded because they seem irrational and foolish — studies on distant healing by prayer and energy healing, studies that are based on precepts and ideas that are contrary to what is known in terms of human physiology and disease," she said.

In an interview last year, shortly after becoming the federal center's new director, Dr. Josephine Briggs said it had a strong research record, and praised the many "big name" scientists who had sought its grants. She conceded there were no big wins from its first decade, other than a study that found acupuncture helped knee arthritis. That finding was called into question when a later, larger study found that sham treatment worked just as well.

"The initial studies were driven by some very strong enthusiasms, and now we're learning about how to layer evidence" and to do more basic science before testing a particular supplement in a large trial, said Briggs, who trained at Ivy League schools and has a respected scientific career.

"There are a lot of negative studies in conventional medicine," and the government's outlay is small compared to drug company spending, she added.

However, critics say that unlike private companies that face bottom-line pressure to abandon a drug that flops, the federal center is reluctant to admit a supplement may lack merit — despite a strategic plan pledging not to equivocate in the face of negative findings.

Echinacea is an example. After a large study by a top virologist found it didn't help colds, its fans said the wrong one of the plant's nine species had been tested. Federal officials agreed that more research was needed, even though they had approved the type used in the study.

"There's been a deliberate policy of never saying something doesn't work. It's as though you can only speak in one direction," and say a different version or dose might give different results, said Dr. Stephen Barrett, a retired physician who runs Quackwatch, a web site on medical scams.

Critics also say the federal center's research agenda is shaped by an advisory board loaded with alternative medicine practitioners. They account for at least nine of the board's 18 members, as required by its government charter. Many studies they approve for funding are done by alternative therapy providers; grants have gone to board members, too.

"It's the fox guarding the chicken coop," said Dr. Joseph Jacobs, who headed the Office of Alternative Medicine, a smaller federal agency that preceded the center's creation. "This is not science, it's ideology on the part of the advocates."

Briggs defended their involvement.

"If you're going to do a study on acupuncture, you're going to need acupuncture expertise," she said. These therapists "are very much believers in what they do," not unlike gastroenterologists doing a study of colonoscopy, and good study design can guard against bias, she said.

The center was handed a flawed mission, many scientists say.

Congress created it after several powerful members claimed health benefits from their own use of alternative medicine and persuaded others that this enormously popular field needed more study. The new center was given $50 million in 1999 (its budget was $122 million last year) and ordered to research unconventional therapies and nostrums that Americans were using to see which ones had merit.

That is opposite how other National Institutes of Health agencies work, where scientific evidence or at least plausibility is required to justify studies, and treatments go into wide use after there is evidence they work — not before.

"There's very little basic science behind these things. Most of it begins with a tradition, or personal testimony and people's beliefs, even as a fad. And then pressure comes: 'It's being popular, it's being used, it should be studied.' It turns things upside down," said Dr. Edward Campion, a senior editor who reviews alternative medicine research submitted to the New England Journal of Medicine.

That reasoning was used to justify the $2 million weight-loss study, approved in 2007. It will test Tapas acupressure, devised by Tapas Fleming, a California acupuncturist. Use of her trademarked method requires employing people she certifies, and the study needs eight.

It involves pressing on specific points on the face and head — the inner corners of the eyes are two — while focusing on a problem. Dr. Charles Elder, a Kaiser Permanente physician who runs an herbal and ayurvedic medicine clinic in Portland, Ore., is testing whether it can prevent dieters from regaining lost weight.

Say a person comes home and is tempted by Twinkies on the table. The solution: Start acupressure "and say something like 'I have an uncontrollable Twinkie urge,'" Elder said. Then focus on an opposite thought, like "I'm in control of my eating."

In Chinese medicine, the pressure is said to release natural energy in a place in the body "responsible for transforming animal desire into higher thoughts," Elder said.

In a federally funded pilot study, 30 dieters who were taught acupressure regained only half a pound six months later, compared with over three pounds for a comparison group of 30 others. However, the study widely missed a key scientific standard for showing that results were not a statistical fluke.

The pilot trial was just to see if the technique was feasible, Elder said. The results were good enough for the federal center to grant $2.1 million for a bigger study in 500 people that is under way now.

Alternative medicine research also is complicated by the subjective nature of many of the things being studied. Pain, memory, cravings, anxiety and fatigue are symptoms that people tolerate and experience in widely different ways.

Take a question like, "Does yoga work for back pain?" said Margaret Chesney, a psychologist who is associate director of the federally funded Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Maryland.

"What kind of yoga? What kind of back pain?" And what does it mean to "work" — to help someone avoid surgery, hold a job or need less medication?

Some things — the body meridians that acupuncturists say they follow, or energy forces that healers say they manipulate — cannot be measured, and many scientists question their existence.

Studying herbals is tough because they are not standardized as prescription drugs are required to be. One brand might contain a plant's flowers, another its seeds and another, stems and leaves, in varying amounts.

There are 150 makers of black cohosh "and probably no two are exactly the same, and probably some people are putting sawdust in capsules and selling it," said Norman Farnsworth, a federally funded herbal medicine researcher at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

Even after a careful study, "you know one thing more precise and firm about what that agent did in that population with that outcome measurement, but you don't necessarily know the whole gamut of its effectiveness," as the echinacea study showed, Briggs said.

The center posts information on supplements and treatments on its Web site, and has a phone line for the public to ask questions — even when the answer is that not enough is known to rule in or rule out benefit or harm.

"I hope we are building knowledge and at least an informed consumer," Briggs said.

___

On the Net:

Federal agency: http://www.nccam.nih.gov

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{"commentId":7561106,"authorDomain":"phillips-brian"}

Welp, I guess I'll just have to get my drugs from Big Pharma......

wait a minute!

{"commentId":7561106,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"phillips-brian"}
    Reply#1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:22 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7561223,"authorDomain":"lar-jan"}

    Here we go....government in bed with the pharmaceutical companies...am I being paranoid?All I can say is that with all the distrust out there I don't necessarily believe this report. There is too much money at stake if it is shown that old-fashioned remedies work for a lot of ailments.

    {"commentId":7561223,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"lar-jan"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#2 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:27 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7565634,"authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}

    Most of the vitamins are manufactured by big pharma, so the conspiracy theory doesn't hold.

    {"commentId":7565634,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}
    • 3 votes
    #2.1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:05 PM EDT
    Reply
    {"commentId":7561343,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}

    Gotta love it. No empirical evidence? Why, it's just gotta be the man, keeping the alternative medicines down.

    Welcome to yet another example of the dumbed down, conspiracy-theory-loving, anti-rational America.

    {"commentId":7561343,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
    • 10 votes
    Reply#3 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:31 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7561548,"authorDomain":"davidbloughsr1"}

    A majority of White House, Wall Street, investors have their hands in Big Pharmaceuticals. Its the same principal as gas companies who control the price of gasoline. They don't want an alternative to RX's because it means a loss in their off-shore accounts and retirement plans.

    Everyone has to decide whether they are going to let Government decide for them or make educated decisions themselves. Most people here in Americas want to make decisions for themselves and live as free as we can.

    {"commentId":7561548,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"davidbloughsr1"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#4 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:39 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7561945,"authorDomain":"stupidloon"}
    Most people here in Americas want to make decisions for themselves and live as free as we can.

    Not sure how true that is. Me thinks you overlook the underachieving fat American laziness factor.

    {"commentId":7561945,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"stupidloon"}
    • 1 vote
    #4.1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:53 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7563541,"authorDomain":"davinci-len"}

    StupidLoon

    Me thinks you overlook the underachieving fat American laziness factor.

    Sounds like stereotyping to me.

    {"commentId":7563541,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"davinci-len"}
    • 3 votes
    #4.2 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:47 PM EDT
    Reply
    {"commentId":7561665,"authorDomain":"mojo31979"}

    Cancer, pain, arthritis, menopause, glaucoma, depression, anxiety, and dozens of others. I know an "alternative" medicine that can treat all these symptoms, anyone care to venture a guess?

    {"commentId":7561665,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"mojo31979"}
    • 4 votes
    Reply#5 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:43 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7561712,"authorDomain":"delytle"}

    Cannabis, of course.

    Been around for thousands of years.

    {"commentId":7561712,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"delytle"}
    • 8 votes
    #5.1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7563505,"authorDomain":"davinci-len"}

    mojo

    Cancer, pain, arthritis, menopause, glaucoma, depression, anxiety, and dozens of others. I know an "alternative" medicine that can treat all these symptoms, anyone care to venture a guess?

    Since when are cancer, arthritis, menopause, glaucoma, depression, etc, symptoms? (Menopause is neither a disease nor a symptom, it's a natural part of a woman's life.)

    Weed cannot treat any of these. No one has been cured of cancer or arthritis. But if really want to get high under the guise of being medicated then that's your business.

    {"commentId":7563505,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"davinci-len"}
    • 2 votes
    #5.2 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:46 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7564910,"authorDomain":"mojo31979"}

    You are correct, I should have stated that differently.

    But it treats all of the symptoms of the aforementioned. And THC has been proven to kill cancer cells.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-04/03/content_11126174.htm

    http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/04/01/hscout625697.html

    Can cut Lung cancer tumor in half:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm

    Slow the effects of Alzheimer's:

    http://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/news/20061006/marijuana-may-slow-alzheimers

    I can give you more links if you'd like, but It's only one suggestion to prove that "alternative" medicines can and do work. Just because it's not in a pill that's mass produced by GSK, Phizer, etc... doesn't mean it's not effective. That's really my point, I simply bring up Marijuana because I think it has the strongest argument in favor of alternative medicine.

    But if really want to get high under the guise of being medicated then that's your business.

    By the way, I don't get high anymore, nor did I ever do it under the guise of being medicated. I simply did it to get that "high" feeling. All through it did help me through my depression, but that's off subject anyway.

    {"commentId":7564910,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"mojo31979"}
    • 2 votes
    #5.3 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:40 PM EDT
    {"commentId":7590346,"authorDomain":"michelleUT"}

    I don't think I'd want to treat menopause....who the hell wants to keep a period around?

    I'll hold a GOODBYE PERIOD party when it happens to me.

    {"commentId":7590346,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"michelleUT"}
      #5.4 - Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:30 PM EDT
      Reply
      {"commentId":7561830,"authorDomain":"shakesbeer"}
      "Some things — the body meridians that acupuncturists say they follow, or energy forces that healers say they manipulate — cannot be measured, and many scientists question their existence."

      NOT TRUE

      You can find these by testing the electrical conductivity on the surface of the skin. They are generated by the very real magnetic field our bodies create naturally which is detectable even with an Electro Magnetic Field detector(EMF detector) for instance. There are other retail products available which you can use to test this on your own.

      There's a great MD named Dr. Nick Begich (brother of Alaska's senator Mark Begich, son of former Alaskan Congressman Begich) who lectures about new medical technologies. One of which is a non-accupuncture accupuncture device which detects these points & sends a small charge to the point. The same as what the needle is doing without actually having to be dead-on accurate either. www.earthpulsepress.com

      And here's a youtube video of him lecturing on some of these technolgies and other stuff most people wouldn't think is real but sure as anything is:(part 1 of 17)

      I'm glad to hear there are studies going on, but just like everything else (including big pharma's drugs) one study doesn't necessarily prove anything and often just leads to more studies; and studying is a good thing so why not?!

      {"commentId":7561830,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"shakesbeer"}
        Reply#6 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
        {"commentId":7562321,"authorDomain":"stupidloon"}

        I agree with your post, but

        studying is a good thing so why not?!

        Because it cost so much damn money, all for squat. I'd rather keep my tax dollars and decide for myself whether pressing on my head makes me feel better. We don't need the government to flush all that cash down the toilet and tell us "more study is needed." Bull@!$%# bull@!$%# bull@!$%#.

        {"commentId":7562321,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"stupidloon"}
          #6.1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:05 PM EDT
          Reply
          {"commentId":7562521,"authorDomain":"mjvst"}

          If alternative medicines work, why did we not have the same median lifespan a thousand years ago that we have today. Its B.S. folks.

          {"commentId":7562521,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"mjvst"}
          • 3 votes
          Reply#7 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:11 PM EDT
          {"commentId":7563513,"authorDomain":"mojo31979"}

          Because the science wasn't there to backup the knowledge. Most of the pharmaceuticals today are derived from botanical's. Palmetto and lycopene extracts for cancer, Ginko and Wort for depression. Alot of these components are used in modern medicine. A thousand years ago people didn't have access to high-tech equipment that could break these components down to a molecular level and reconstitute and combine them in a more effective form of treatment.

          I think most of these are more preventative than they are treatments but shouldn't that really be to goal of healthcare? To prevent the bad things from happening. But I guess there's not a lot of money to be made there huh?

          {"commentId":7563513,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"mojo31979"}
          • 2 votes
          #7.1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:46 PM EDT
          {"commentId":7593395,"authorDomain":"mjvst"}

          Indded. I am no fan of big pharma. But some of these studies go way beyond the pharmacological aspects of plant chemistry. To wit:

          Taxpayers are bankrolling studies of whether pressing various spots on your head can help with weight loss, whether brain waves emitted from a special "master" can help break cocaine addiction, and whether wearing magnets can help the painful wrist problem, carpal tunnel syndrome.

          It reminds me of an old girlfriend who believed in the healing power of chrystals. I submit still, its mostly Oprah-style New Age B.S. And the "botanicals" need to be regulated the same as any other drug. As the story said, thesr's dozens of manufacturers of these things and noone's formulation is exactly the same as anyone else's. No wonder they can't get definitive results.

          {"commentId":7593395,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"mjvst"}
            #7.2 - Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:40 PM EDT
            Reply
            {"commentId":7562634,"authorDomain":"kylen"}
            grants have gone to board members, too.

            How surprising that they found themselves to be the most competent researchers to perform the experiments using money they grant themselves. Maybe we can replicate this success in the rest of health care and have Congress give politically allocated money to hospitals irregardless of outcomes and call it universal care. You know take the profit out of it...

            {"commentId":7562634,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"kylen"}
            • 1 vote
            Reply#8 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:16 PM EDT
            {"commentId":7562671,"authorDomain":"demoscout"}

            Several years ago I had a two month cold which my otolaryngologist told me was due to a polyp in one of my sinuses. He said I should just put up with it until summer because the only remedy was painful surgery. I found a Chinese herbal pill at a Chinese pharmacy and began taking it. Within two weeks my eternal cold was gone. I went back to the doc and he looked and said the polyp was "greatly reduced." I told him what I was taking and he said with a note of sarcasm, "well, keep taking it." I also take standardized saw palmetto for another problem and it works just as well as the most popular prescription drugs. I think there is a great bias in the scientific community to throw doubt on anything they haven't yet been able to demonstrate scientifically. And there is a great bias in the medical establishment to favor the pharmaceutical industry. But many of the standard drugs that we pay outrageous prices for are not very effective, all of them have side effects, and many of them are downright dangerous. So, we need to keep an open mind about alternative medicine and cures.

            {"commentId":7562671,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"demoscout"}
            • 1 vote
            Reply#9 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:17 PM EDT
            {"commentId":7595497,"authorDomain":"mjvst"}
            I think there is a great bias in the scientific community to throw doubt on anything they haven't yet been able to demonstrate scientifically.

            Well yeah, that's kind of what science is all about. If something is really real and truly true, it should be repeatably observable. If it cannot be repeatably demonstrated (ie "demonstrated scientifically"), then there is not a lot to support belief in it, other than wishful thinking. Thats what seperates modern science from alchemy and astrology.

            But many of the standard drugs that we pay outrageous prices for are not very effective, all of them have side effects, and many of them are downright dangerous.

            Well, yes and no. We aren't really that far along on truly targeted drugs that only affect what their supposed to, and so yes, there are a lot of side affects. And dangerous? Yeah, particularly if you have an undiscovered metabolic anomally that intersects with the drug's mechanism of action or are taking a different and incompatible drug. Hence, the huge lists of contraindications that most drugs come with (by the way, the chemicals in many "herbal" remedies can also interact negatively with each other and with pharmaceutically produced drugs). But not being effective? Well, all I can say is again, we live a lot longer than our ancestors and in a lot less misery from most of the common ailments that afflicted them. So much so that we can now focus on whole new classes of ailments like Alzheimers disease that they were not really affected by as much because something else killed them first.

            Ask an elderly person about what life was like before antibiotics and vaccines. It was a terrifying way to live knowing that you or someone you love could be killed at any time by a simple skin infection that went septic or by a communicable disease like polio. If you enjoy the idea of "free love" and the whole sexual revolution, that was only possible because of the birth control pill and the fact that pretty much all the then common forms of venereal disease were curable by antibiotics. Of course we went nuts and ended up with Herpes, HIV, genital warts, etc., but hey, at least you don't need a shot of mercury you know where to fight syphillis. And we have new drugs to fight these new diseases too. The point is that 10,000 years of "traditional" or "holistic" medicine didn't stop small pox, polio, rabies, malaria, tuberculosis, or the bubonic plague. It was modern, scientifically developed drugs, along with improvements in sanitation, epidemiology, and nutrition. This is why the median human lifespan in the western world is 75-80 and climbing, and why 40% plus of children don't die before their fifth birthday, and why women don't routinely die in childbirth anymore.

            If you have cancer which is your choice: A) Chemotherapy with all of its side effects, but a decent record of positively treating the disease or B) A slow, painful, lingering death as the tumor consumes you. I pick "A" Its not perfect, but it beats the hell out of what we had before.

            {"commentId":7595497,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"mjvst"}
            • 1 vote
            #9.1 - Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:10 AM EDT
            Reply
            {"commentId":7562906,"authorDomain":"micksmit"}
            Mick SmitDeleted
            {"commentId":7563133,"authorDomain":"davinci-len"}

            People want simple solutions to difficult problems. Thus an industry of crooks and charlatans. However, drug companies make tons of money on medications that were supposed to be tested properly but sometimes these medications did little. In some cases the products had to be taken off the market. Case in point, a drug to help loss was removed because it damaged heart valves in some people!

            One of the best kept secrets in this culture involves prescription meds that can be abused. There are loads of Americans that are addicted to pain killers and similar "medications" but both the government and the drug companies look the other way!

            {"commentId":7563133,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"davinci-len"}
            • 1 vote
            Reply#11 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:33 PM EDT
            {"commentId":7563273,"authorDomain":"scottsmith53"}

            On another post I was talking to a guy who said that the goverment should fund most research to keep the profit-mongers out of it. I think this illustrates the point that the profit mongers are in the goverment. I have used glucosamine in the past for my knees and it did zero good. I also know some people who swear it worked for them... who knows? Whatever works for each person I guess. I am pretty sure that medicines react differently to individual people. Which would mean that it might not work for some but it will for other, belief is an incredible tool and the human mind can cause the body to do remarkable things.

            {"commentId":7563273,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"scottsmith53"}
            • 1 vote
            Reply#12 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:37 PM EDT
            {"commentId":7564339,"authorDomain":"aliaszen"}

            This is the biggest bunch of nonsense I have ever read. They should be ashamed of themselves for posting such fraud. I use many herbal supplements with much success for me and my family because we can't afford meds. That's why herbal supplements are constantly under attack by "Big Pharma". Where do you think they make their meds from? Thin air? They can't patent herbs is why they hate them so much. This article is very disappointing.

            {"commentId":7564339,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"aliaszen"}
              Reply#13 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:18 PM EDT
              {"commentId":7565774,"authorDomain":"cynthia-k-may"}

              I think there's a little bit of truth in what you say. My G.P.'s nurse practitioner suggested that I try Evening Primrose Oil to help control my mild case of rosacea and for the last four years, just the primrose oil has kept it at bay 100% of the time. No, I don't think all alternative therapies work, but I've read studies on both milk thistle (for liver functions) and for primrose oil (for skin issues) and both have received some attention for actually working. I am at work and can't provide links (because they are bookmarked on my home computer), but I'm sure a simple google search would yield similar results.

              {"commentId":7565774,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"cynthia-k-may"}
                #13.1 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:10 PM EDT
                {"commentId":7566244,"authorDomain":"aliaszen"}

                I also agree with you. There are also companies that don't use good manufacuring practices for obtaining the herbs and packaging them. It makes me wonder if they tested bogus herb supplements instead of good high quality. I haven't seen the study personally of course. If I could, I may be able to tell what possible flaws in testing there may have been. Spending alot of money doesn't mean testing is perfect. Most cases there are too many unknown variables to make these types of decisions. We're all human - at least I think so. There can be mistakes. Most herb supplements take time to work.

                {"commentId":7566244,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"aliaszen"}
                  #13.2 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:27 PM EDT
                  {"commentId":7566778,"authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}

                  I would assume they are using controlled double-blind testing. One group randomly receives the drug and the other receives a placebo. If there are any statistical differences between the two, then p > 0.5. Pretty simple.

                  Next, even if through all of these tests they managed to consistently pick the "wrong brand" or a "mispackaged" herbs, what does that say about the overall utilization of alternative remedies by the general public? Can you decipher what quanties, plant species, special super secret 5 exploding heart palm technique is being utilized from the container, advertisement, or store front window? Unlikely. At least with medically approved, regulated, and manufactured per GMP products, more oten than not you get the same damn thing everyone else does with very little variation.

                  As I already mentioned, in the case of vitamins and herbal supplements, most are manufactured by Big Pharma, except without the auspices of government safety regulations, GMP regulations, and QA/QC standards.

                  {"commentId":7566778,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}
                  • 3 votes
                  #13.3 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:46 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  {"commentId":7567131,"authorDomain":"aliaszen"}

                  They should split FDA into 2 parts - Food administration and Drug administration. Add a third administration for vitamins and herbs. This way we can apply more resources to each for testing and manufacturing. I think the FDA is too small to handle everything at once. This way vitamins and herbs can manufactured the same as pharma drugs without ripping-off or harming public.

                  {"commentId":7567131,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"aliaszen"}
                    Reply#14 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:58 PM EDT
                    {"commentId":7569762,"authorDomain":"honicky"}

                    Another blow to those who employ magical thinking for their health needs. The perils of relying upon anecdotal experience, at least in serious illnesses like cancer, is death. 3% of lung cancer patient's cancers regress immaterial whether they have been "naughty or nice." That means that 97% of the lung cancer patients die of their lung cancer, immaterial of whether they followed "doctor's orders" or winged it on their own. Dead is dead. Anecdotally, I knew a women who coughed up blood and went straight to her herbalist and toxic cleanser person and for 9 months followed their regimens to the letter. Then, more blood, a brain scan, cancer metastasis to the brain. She left two gorgeous young children behind. Another women, coughed up blood, had resection of the tumor and is alive and well 2 decades later. Both cancers, adenoma carcinoma. Outcome different. Magical thinking is best left to four year olds. If the power of prayer/or secret nostrums were so great, Pope Paul would not have died from the complications of his Parkinson's disease. Don't you think many millions of people prayed for him? It is not surprising that alternative medicines and practices have the same impact as a four year old's magical thinking. Just look at who is doing it. Just look who is advocating for alternative medicines/practices.

                    {"commentId":7569762,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"honicky"}
                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#15 - Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:04 PM EDT
                    {"commentId":7582043,"authorDomain":"anthropos-1"}

                    This, from the people that put their stamp of approval on statin drugs! NNT on statins is 1 in 500. Most drugs are considered nothing more than a crap shoot with an NNT of 10. As an example the NNT of antibiotics is close to 1--- meaning every person that takes them receives the effect intended. 1 in 500 people on statins may reduce the possibility of "recurring" heart disease--- the rest increase their chances of dying by decreasing an important enzyme called Q10 (the reason people on statins usually have lots of pain) Q10 is the most important enzyme for the heart! But somehow statins are more efficacious than fish oil and niacin with a baby aspirin? I think not! the compendium of posts here seem to indicate we're all the same page---- we don't trust the government!

                    I agree that 80% of alternative care is the same--- just money making. Tragically, so much good is obfuscated by the smoke and mirrors of greed and power.

                    {"commentId":7582043,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"anthropos-1"}
                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#16 - Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:41 PM EDT
                    {"commentId":7583956,"authorDomain":"aliaszen"}

                    One way you can tell there is distrust is by what they choose to ban in some cases. For example- They just banned Hydroxycut for causing liver damage. Well doesn't alcohol and most of their drugs cause liver damage? My suspicion is they don't want a small supplement company to cut into profits.They spend mass ammounts of money on developing diet drugs.

                    {"commentId":7583956,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"aliaszen"}
                      #16.1 - Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:58 PM EDT
                      {"commentId":7592417,"authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}

                      Diet drugs such as Phen Phen? That was a prescription marketed by big pharm that was pulled for health complications. They pull drugs for health complications, that's what the FDA (food and drug administration) does. ATF is in charge of the alcohol.

                      {"commentId":7592417,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}
                        #16.2 - Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:33 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        {"commentId":7590404,"authorDomain":"michelleUT"}

                        I know there are benefits to some natural remedies - afterall, many medicines are derived from plants.

                        However, I am not going to take an herb when I am struggling to breathe from pneumonia. I'll stick to big pharma.

                        {"commentId":7590404,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"michelleUT"}
                          Reply#17 - Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:34 PM EDT
                          {"commentId":7608294,"authorDomain":"anthropos-1"}

                          yes, I understand why you would feel that way. But are you aware that N-acetylcistine NAC ----(an amino acid) bought at your healthfood store for $20 directly targets inflamation of lung tissue and would save thousands of lives but is used little? some hospitals use it as an areosol with great results. But you can buy it from your health food store and take a gram a day, and more when and if your lungs are challenged. 1000's of people have died with pneumonia under hospital care and medication that could have lived with the simple supplement NAC. Not to mention, prophalactic use prevents lung cancer~~~ as all cancers are from inflammatory irritation of tissues.

                          {"commentId":7608294,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"anthropos-1"}
                            #17.1 - Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            {"commentId":7653452,"authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}

                            Researchers at the University of Virginia reported in 2007 study using very large doses in a mouse model that acetylcysteine, which is found in many bodybuilding supplements, could potentially cause damage to the heart and lungs.[31] They found that acetylcysteine was metabolized to S-nitroso-N-acetylcysteine (SNOAC), which increased blood pressure in the lungs and right ventricle of the heart (pulmonary artery hypertension) in mice treated with acetylcysteine. The effect was similar to that observed following a 3-week exposure to an oxygen-deprived environment (chronic hypoxia). The authors also found that SNOAC induced a hypoxia-like response in the expression of several important genes both in vitro and in vivo.

                            The implications of these findings for long-term treatment with acetylcysteine have not yet been investigated. The dose used by Palmer and colleagues was dramatically higher than that used in humans;[31] nonetheless, the drug's effects on the hypoxic ventilatory response have been observed previously in human subjects at more moderate doses.[32]

                            {"commentId":7653452,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"puckishpixie"}
                              Reply#18 - Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:27 PM EDT
                              {"commentId":7802229,"authorDomain":"healthy-ascan-be"}

                              I am 73. I spent the forst half of my life with 16 surgeries and drugs for thyroid, pain, all sorts of things. each time I went to a doctor I got some more pills.

                              When I started with alternative health care, suggested by a friend who could help me with some problems, like candida, my health improved and for the last half of my life I have been in perfect health and take no medicine of any kind. I have no pain, because when my spine was injured 11 years ago I chose to not have a rod put down my back but have chiropractic care, accupuncture, lazer massage and deep tissue massage therapy. The horrible pain I had been in could only have been cured with surgery and pills. In a year's time I had no pain and no surgery.

                              Everyone has a right to make their own choices. I won't suggest banning pharmaceuticals because of all the scary after effects that "might" happen, I don't want people banning the supplements and natural products that have helped me and millions of others.

                              {"commentId":7802229,"threadId":"599936","contentId":"2915757","authorDomain":"healthy-ascan-be"}
                                Reply#19 - Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:50 PM EDT
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