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Analysis: Climate bill may spur energy revolution

Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:15 PM EDT
business, politics, us, climate, future, analysis, bill
H. Josef Hebert, Associated Press
In his weekly address President Barack Obama says the climate bill won't be a financial hardship for consumers.
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showing 1 of 6 photos
<p>FILE -- In this April 22, 2009 file photo, Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., left, speaks during a news conference on Capitol Hill in Washington as Sen. John ensign, R-Nev., listens (AP Photo/Susan Walsh, File)</p>

FILE -- In this April 22, 2009 file photo, Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., left, speaks during a news conference on Capitol Hill in Washington as Sen. John ensign, R-Nev., listens (AP Photo/Susan Walsh, File)

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WASHINGTON — Congress has taken its first step toward an energy revolution, with the prospect of profound change for every household, business, industry and farm in the decades ahead.

It was late Friday when the House passed legislation that would, for the first time, require limits on pollution blamed for global warming — mainly carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels. Now the Senate has the chance to change the way Americans produce and use energy.

What would the country look like a decade from now if the House-passed bill — or, more likely, a water-down version — were to become the law of the land?

"It will open the door to a clean energy economy and a better future for America," President Barack Obama said Saturday.

But what does that mean to the average person?

Energy touches every corner of the economy and in countless ways can alter people's lives.

Such a law would impact how much people pay to heat, cool and light their homes (it would cost more); what automobiles they buy and drive (smaller, fuel efficient and hybrid electric); and where they will work (more "green" jobs, meaning more environmentally friendly ones).

Critics of the House bill brand it a "jobs killer." Yet it would seem more likely to shift jobs. Old, energy-intensive industries and businesses might scale back or disappear. Those green jobs would emerge, propelled by the push for nonpolluting energy sources.

That could mean making or installing solar panels, repairing wind turbines, producing energy-efficient light bulbs, working for an environmental engineering firm or waste recycler, making equipment that harnesses carbon from coal burning and churning out energy-saving washing machines or air conditioners.

Assembly line workers at factories that made gas-guzzling cars might see their future in producing the next generation of batteries or wind turbine blades — an emerging shift, though on a relatively small scale today. On Wall Street, commodity brokers would trade carbon pollution credits alongside oil futures.

Farmers would see the cost of fertilizer and electricity go up. More windmills would dot their pastures. And a new source of income could come from selling pollution credits by planting trees or changing farming methods to absorb more carbon dioxide.

Energy would cost more because it would become more expensive to produce. For the first time there would be a price on the greenhouse gas pollution created when coal, natural gas or oil are burned. Energy companies would have to pay for technologies that can capture the carbon emissions, purchase pollution allowances or shift to cleaner energy sources.

It all costs.

Investors would see a new line item on companies financial reports: the cost of carbon permits.

Some increases would be reflected in the prices of goods and services, economics say. It might mean shelling out more for a toy because plastic, a petroleum based product, is more expensive, or paying more for a house because of new efficiency requirements.

Not all the higher energy cost would show up in people's utility bills. Households, as well as business and factories — including those, for example, making plastic for toys — could use less energy, or at least use it more efficiently. The poorest of homes could get a government check as a rebate for high energy costs. That money would come from selling pollution allowances for industry.

Energy experts in government and industry say a price on carbon pollution would lead to new ways to make renewable energy less expensive, while emphasizing how people can use it more wisely.

Potential changes to how homes are built and even financed seem likely as energy efficiency is taken into account in building codes and the cost of mortgages. With the cost of energy increasing, homeowners and businesses would have greater incentive to use more energy efficient lighting, windows and insulation.

But don't think that the traditional sources of energy would disappear.

Coal, which today accounts for half the electricity produced, would continue as a major energy source, though a less polluting one, energy experts forecast. That would mean capturing the carbon released when coal is burned.

It's a technological hurdle with a complication: "not in my back yard" complaints over what to do with the billions of tons of carbon dioxide captured from power plants and pumped beneath the earth. Would people feel comfortable having it stored near or under their homes, factories and businesses?

Scientists studying climate change say carbon capture from power plants is essential if the country is to take up the challenge against global warming.

The cleaner energy economy also put nuclear energy front and center. Does the U.S. build new power plants? If so, where, and where does all the waste go? Nuclear energy makes up about one-fifth of the nation's electricity today.

The House-passed bill contains provisions to make it easier to get loan guarantees and expands the nuclear industry's access to loans for reactor construction. An Environmental Protection Agency analysis that shows modest future costs from a low-climate energy world assumes a significant expansion of nuclear energy. The Senate could add more incentives for the nuclear industry.

The new energy world would rely more on natural gas. This abundant fossil fuel emits carbon but is relatively clean when compared with coal. But people would have to decide whether to accept new pipelines that are needed to ship the gas around the country — just as they would have to deal with the need for new power lines to move solar and wind energy to where it's needed.

___

EDITOR'S NOTE — H. Josef Hebert has covered energy and environmental issues for The Associated Press since 1990.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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  • Public Discussion (521)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
Lee B

What are you willing to do to make the world a better place? Spend a little extra money for your kids futures?

I'd hope so.

  • 15 votes
#1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
Conservative in California

What are you willing to do to make the world a better place? Spend a little extra money for your kids futures?

It'd be nicer if the government wouldn't take so much more of our money so we can spend our own money how we think is best for our kids as opposed to having the government thinking they know best how to spend the money they take from us.

I'm not sure how making the price of energy, the price of everything that uses energy, and having companies move overseas to pollute more than they would have here will help anyone out except the government who will gain more power.

  • 27 votes
#1.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
redsfan

I believe the environment is very important to the future of the planet and future of our children. Economic worries affect everyone...but having a little less money is not as important as fixing our environment.

  • 11 votes
#1.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
Conservative in California

Cap and Trade will do what for our environment? Create more pollution? How does that satisfy the religious zealots of the Global Warming Religion?

Companies will simply go overseas where environmental laws are not as strict, and create more pollution there.

  • 21 votes
#1.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
greg-709692

Cap and trade is going to be the new stock of the century. It will get traded, and traded, and traded, until it falls just like the market already did.

Its the Al Gore excuse to pollute. All you have to do is buy your way out. Its only money!

  • 15 votes
#1.4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:21 PM EDT
redsfan

C in C and greg - if you don't like cap and trade...what is your solution to our energy crisis and environmental problems? Whatever they are, you should tell your congressional representatives so they can incorporate your solutions into the next round of legislation.

  • 8 votes
#1.5 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
Conservative in California

Cap and Trade will create the "Seinfeld Market." Think about it. It's a market created and backed by nothing.

What's a carbon credit? It's value is completely arbitrary.

Wait until speculators get involved and jack up the prices so much that energy prices are doubling, tripling, quadrupling. Don't think that can happen? Take a look at the price of oil. Supply is high, demand is low, but prices are going up. Why? Speculation. This is going to create one hell of an economic distaster in the short term, when speculators jack up prices, and when the entire market collapses. Didn't we learn anything from the stock market and housing bubbles? Apparently not.

  • 17 votes
#1.6 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:28 PM EDT
ComSen

but having a little less money is not as important as fixing our environment.

Who says it's going to be "a little less money"? With the economy trying to recover, what's to keep this "little money" from causing an economic collapse that causes more pollution than it was trying to prevent?

  • 15 votes
#1.7 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:30 PM EDT
Simplistic Reality

"It will open the door to a clean energy economy and a better future for America," President Barack Obama said Saturday.

Bull@!$%#. Here is a reality check. Over 50+ percent of this nations Electricty is generated by coal. Its cheap, its in abundance, and its easy to get. Our energy demands are expanding which means they need more generating facilities in the very near future. This myth that there is a cleaner way to burn coal which produces a lot of CO2 or a way to "trap" CO2 isn't even proven or realistic at todays time. The "cleaner" solutions especially in terms of our nations electricity grid / power are going to VERY VERY expensive. When was the last time this country built a Nuclear Power plant? (that is clean energy). Cleaner energy is going to translate to very expensive electricity. How are we going to afford this? They are going to tax CO2... well guess where that tax is going to be passed onto? Us the consumer! Higher electric bills and goods. All this is, is a money making scheme by the Politicians to get money to fund other programs. To all these Politicians that are so anally for this. Are they driving hybrid cars and fuel efficient cars themselves? How about all the CO2 they blow on there private jets? Are there houses energy efficient? If not they are all hypocrites. I love it how people argue "Global Warming this", "Green that" when they themselves are not helping out the cause at all personally.

  • 24 votes
#1.8 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:36 PM EDT
Sharn CedarDeleted
greg-709692Expand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

@ redsfan;

How about being able to get the energy we have here! Coal and natural gas have huge deposits, and yes, it can be clean. Coca Florida has a huge coal fired plant, and its so clean, the only thing you see coming out of the huge funnels is steam.

Progress Energy and FP&L are revamping alot of their plants already for clean fuels available. Of course our power bills have gone up twice in the last 5 years.

It didn't take legislation for them to do it.

All this is, is another way for government to grab more money at our expense.

  • 11 votes
#1.10 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:38 PM EDT
Simplistic Reality

Coca Florida has a huge coal fired plant, and its so clean, the only thing you see coming out of the huge funnels is steam.

Lol. Show me a source for that..... you can't burn coal and not have a CO2 by product. Where is the CO2 going?

  • 4 votes
#1.11 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
Eric AlbertDeleted
RR98411

Our Us Government is funding Clean Coal initiatives...

www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/powersystems/cleancoal

www.netl.doe.gov/technologies/coalpower/cctc/index.html

Here is a source from the EPA on air quality trends...

http://www.epa.gov/airtrends/aqtrends.html

On a side note, does anybody know how to do a little research. I just got home from the Safeway... brought some groceries in... checking some email before I go back out to pick up my Mom from the Doc... 10 minutes to find the above stuff. May not quite answer your question directly but (1) it's a start and (2) what environmental emergency... the govenrnments own data shows the air is significantly cleaner than 15-25 years ago.

By the way here is another gem, an older (1999) document... the question I have is what is the current status of the project referred to? Maybe you can find out for us.

http://fossil.energy.gov/programs/powersystems/publications/Clean_Coal_Topical_Reports/Investment_pays_off.pdf

  • 2 votes
#1.13 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
Simplistic Reality

Yes they are working on making Clean Coal... but so far there isn't a working system yet. Furthermore most of the current coal plants in operation wouldn't be able to convert over or if so.. would be financially extreme to do so. Its kind of a dumb money into it program and hope they can find a solution type of thing. I'm not holding my breath.

  • 7 votes
#1.14 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:45 PM EDT
eriq samson

missing the point: All the energy we use now has a cost - it just is paid by the environment, or somebody else (i.e. cities for dirty water, hospitals taking care of people breathing polluted air, etc.

Cap and trade is an attempt to let a supposed "free market" work out the how's rather than impose by government edict or provide by some "socialist" government power plants, etc.

So, if you want to run around crying like some stuck pigs that you are being taxed to pay for the pollution you cause directly let me be the first to cry crocodile tears for you.

The Science Fiction author, Robert Heinlein had this great idea - let all companies take in water downstream from their outflows (and the logical corollary would be to take in air from their own exhaust system) and see how fast they clean it. This is kind of second best solution but, really, what is the alternative? Self extinction?

  • 5 votes
#1.15 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:56 PM EDT
EllieP

SR, see my link in #2.5. There isn't the technology here, but there is in S. AFrica. I don't know whether anything could come of it, but the essential problem here is that incremental progress isn't good enough for Obama.

  • 6 votes
#1.16 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:01 PM EDT
Simplistic Reality

The Science Fiction author, Robert Heinlein had this great idea - let all companies take in water downstream from their outflows (and the logical corollary would be to take in air from their own exhaust system) and see how fast they clean it. This is kind of second best solution but, really, what is the alternative? Self extinction?

Well we know why he is a Science Fiction writer...... as for the exhaust... there just isn't the technology to make it "clean". The "pump the exhaust back to the company and watch them how fast they clean it up" statement is just hyperbole. Like I've said before for example.. The process of creating concrete Worldwide is the third largest offender of producing CO2 gases. There is not one single way to make it more "clean" or "environmentally" friendly. Thats a fact. What do you suppose should happen then? Boycott using concrete now? After all is the 3rd largest producer and only increasing to the Worlds demand and expansion of concrete needs like China / India.

  • 4 votes
#1.17 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:13 PM EDT
maschwar77

I do believe in being a responsible steward of the earth and this bill has laudable goals. Conservative in California makes a good point that companies could go oversees where environmental regulation is almost nill. This is where we have to add something to make it less attractive to go oversees. This can be done in 1 of 3 ways: (1) Penalize the company with heavy taxes for offshoring, (2) Tax breaks for remaining state side and complying with the energy bill. (3) Encourage other countries to follow suit with the energy bill and eliminate havens for would-be corporations seeking countries with fewer environmental restrictions. Corporations can be controlled with the taxation phenomena

  • 4 votes
#1.18 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:22 PM EDT
EllieP

Conservative in California makes a good point that companies could go oversees where environmental regulation is almost nill.

To wit.

  • 2 votes
#1.19 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:26 PM EDT
Nofluer

mas #1.18

It's not offshoring when you move lock stock and telephone bank to the other country. The US loses an induistry - period.

  • 6 votes
#1.20 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:41 AM EDT
Bob Nelson.

Way back at #1,5, redsfan asked a simple and obvious question,

if you don't like cap and trade...what is your solution to our energy crisis and environmental problems?

No answer. There is no alternative proposition, other than to continue to pollute.

The naysyers basically want to continue to destroy the planet they live on. If a person had this same -- suicidal -- behavior at the personal level, they'd hopefully get medical help before succeeding...

  • 2 votes
#1.21 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:32 AM EDT
Bob Nelson.

China also has a huge "clean coal" problem. Their solution to what is basically an impossible "make a square out of a circle" problem? Nuclear power.

They're launching nuclear reactor constructions by the dozens.

They're getting (buying!) technical assistance from France, where over 80% of electricity is nuclear. France is looking at upcoming EU cap-and-trade rules... and smiling...

I'm sure Areva and EdF would be happy to build a few plants in the States, too...

  • 1 vote
#1.22 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:37 AM EDT
greg-709692

@ Simplistic Reality Comment # 1.11

The power company uses whats called gasification:

Coal gasification may offer a further environmental advantage in addressing concerns over the atmospheric buildup of greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide.. If oxygen is used in a coal gasifier instead of air, carbon dioxide is emitted as a concentrated gas stream. In this form, it can be captured more easily and at lower costs for ultimate disposition in various sequestration approaches. (By contrast, when coal burns or is reacted in air, 80 percent of which is nitrogen, the resulting carbon dioxide is much more diluted and more costly to separate from the much larger mass of gases flowing from the combustor or gasifier.)

Plus Scrubbers and other methods for clean coal.

I was able to find this at the site but not alot of details so I found this explanation of what this technology is doing for the big cocoa plant and they have these already in effect:

http://www.cogeneration.net/coal_fired_power_plants.htm

Plus, the coal wastes are used in many products, one of which is in the production of concrete and drywall for buildings. So coal is not used strictly as an energy source for burning.

  • 3 votes
#1.23 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:14 AM EDT
Simplistic Reality

Thanks for the info greg.

  • 3 votes
#1.24 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:41 PM EDT
greg-709692

I'm just one of those that likes to see us use what we have to save us money.

Would have rather seen a bill requiring a gradual and cost effect change so we wouldn't get nailed by government again.

Still can't wait to see how they are going to regulate it. The laws haven't even been written yet, so, what are they going to follow?

I deal with regulatory requirements through The Department of Environmental Regulation, and it ain't pretty now.

  • 3 votes
#1.25 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:51 AM EDT
Brandon-801865

Cap and trade is the only way to usher in the Energy Revolution.

Republicans and Independents have put forth no other viable plans.

  • 3 votes
#1.26 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
greg-709692

Can't put a viable plan together, thats viable, in 150 days.

Takes alittle more time than that. Of course, Obama thinks it can be done and correct in that time. To bad for us.

  • 3 votes
#1.27 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
Brandon-801865

Greg,

Oh, I see, just like putting together a successful stimulus plan for a 100 trillion dollar economy in a couple of months (after 8 years of catastrophic damage).

You can't have it both ways, man.

Ridiculous.

  • 1 vote
#1.28 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
Meloney

The issues have been under consideration for far longer than 150 days. Cap and trade, a market based approach for decreasing emissions, has already been done too.

"Cap and trade" harnesses the forces of markets to achieve cost-effective environmental protection. Markets can achieve superior environmental protection by giving businesses both flexibility and a direct financial incentive to find faster, cheaper and more innovative ways to reduce pollution.

Cap and trade was designed, tested and proven here in the United States, as a program within the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. The success of this program led The Economist magazine to crown it "probably the greatest green success story of the past decade." (July 6, 2002).

The Cap and Trade Success Story

    #1.29 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:57 PM EDT
    greg-709692

    @ Brandon;

    Oh, I see

    What do you see?

    @ Melony;

    If that is true, why do we need this cap and tax, if the first one is working?

    Its a tradable commodity that allows the so called pollutors to keep polluting as long as they buy credits from non-pollutors (Ref. Al Gore and his reason for polluting like he does)

    Its also being reported that the third world countries will make out the best, as they aren't concidered pollutors, so they will have many, many credits to sell to industrialized nations.

    Biggest problem of all, is the enforcement issue. No government body is in place to regulate and keep track of this requirement, the, you have to rely on the companies to monitor it correctly.

    Its a Tax on us, whether everybody wants to admit it or not.

    Spain is hurting because of cap and trade and England is now pushing to get rid of it from their country.

    http://www.think-energy.net/Cap%20&%20Trade%20tax%20Proposed%20BLDG%20MAG_Bottom%20Line%20Energy%20Issues_April%202009.pdf

    • 2 votes
    #1.30 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:39 PM EDT
    Meloney

    why do we need this cap and tax, if the first one is working?

    The 1990 Clean Air legislation has been successful in reducing emissions related to acid rain (I'm thinking it was primarily sulfur).

    The enforcement issue in cap and trade becomes a compliance issue. The government sets standards by which emissions can be measured. Then they set levels for compliance. Emitters must report and show compliance. A sort of currency in cap and trade emissions is government issued permits. The permits grant some amount of emissions. There has been much discussion about how the government should distribute the initial lots of permits.

    I think the international issue is the biggie. Other nations are also setting standards or considering it. This has been going on for years, of course, but without US involvement global agreements have gone wanting. Once the US demonstrates serious commitment others will likely follow the leadership. It's an opportunity for the US to design, engineer, administrate, manufature whole new business systems.

    See Forbes Top Ten Green Industries for some of the business that will be fostered by a positive US approach to global warming.

    • 2 votes
    #1.31 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:11 PM EDT
    greg-709692

    The enforcement issue in cap and trade becomes a compliance issue

    Its going to be more than that. An entirely new government agency, with hundreds of workers, will need to be set up for enforcement alone. More tax's will be required to run this office, unless other programs are eliminated to fund this.

    Your relying to much on the facts that emitters will be truthful in their reporting.

    Then you have China and Russia who could care less about cap and trade as a means of reducing pollution. Its a money maker for them as they will use it as trading values to make money.

    In the Bill it states that pollutors can buy credits from other companies they own overseas. If those overseas companies pollute less than those in the U.S., they buy those credits to keep doing what they are doing, with no reduction in pollutants.

    That's where the Trade part of the bill comes in.

    I can see it now. They set up a company overseas, do minimal manufacturing to meet the emmissions quota and get credits. Then sell it back to themselves here in the U.S. to keep doing business as usual.

    Who or how is that going to be enforced?

    Its within the law as spelled out in Cap and Trade Allowances!

    Al Gore does it!

    • 2 votes
    #1.32 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:38 PM EDT
    kissmyarsenal

    What are you willing to do to make the world a better place? Spend a little extra money for your kids futures?

    I'd hope so.

    That's exactly what I'd like to do. So if you'll help me put an end to Obama stealing the money I was setting aside for my children it would be great. Help me keep America the land of freedom and liberty by dumping this Obama administration and the Democrat Congress.

    The Democats: It takes a pillage to raze a child.

    • 2 votes
    #1.33 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:48 PM EDT
    Meloney

    No doubt there will be confusion and attempt to evade by many polluters. It will take awhile to make the transition. There will have to be government compliance visits, audits, that will probably taper off as people come into compliance.

    Remember there was a big battle against workplace safety too. There was a time when OSHA was new and employers evaded responsibility for worker safety. Some day we may look back and say there was a day when polluters could dump their crap into the public sphere and walk.

    The thing about buying up credits to pollute in the US would be a mess. If they paid for the permits to pollute at least there is a fee base on which to draw for clean up. The bill isn't in it's final forms yet and there is only so much a domestic law can do. The international implications will come.

    • 1 vote
    #1.34 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:59 PM EDT
    kissmyarsenal

    You guys know which is the safest workplace? It is the one that no one goes to. You've made the workplace incredibly safe for about 10% of Americans who don't have to go there anymore. The ration and tax energy bill misnamed Cap and Trade will make even more people safe from the workplace, maybe 15-20% of the American workforce. You leftists and Democrats with the government fetish can be proud! Obamaphilia is truly insane.

    • 3 votes
    #1.35 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:39 PM EDT
    Anita Bail Out

    The Democats: It takes a pillage to raze a child

    LOL!!

    Say it with me... Neofrog (Neo + Progressive = NeopHrog = Neofrog)

    Neofrog motto -- "Let 'em croak!"

    • 3 votes
    #1.36 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
    DoctorLogic

    It is the one that no one goes to. You've made the workplace incredibly safe for about 10% of Americans who don't have to go there anymore

    Yes, of course! Obama is responsible for the recession that began over a year ago (wow, he IS amazing). Naturally, the best idea is to allow oil companies to continue to get record profits in the times of a recession, PLUS, the bonus is we can continue to pollute the atmosphere at record paces! All in the name of an oldie but a goodie, WE MIGHT PAY MORE TAXES! You neocons have some great ideas.

    Seriously however (maybe I should point out, I wasn't really serious in the 1st paragraph....sorry, didn't mean to disappoint), until you offer alternatives to Obama's policy choices, why should we even listen to you? I guess I look at it this way, neocons lost last November in large part because a large majority of people blame them for the status of the economy. Therefore, you have the burden of proof of why we should take one letter of what you say seriously. I'm serious, you act like prophets talking about this strange new country Obama is trying to build and your way of thinking is how we got to where we are....you never offer evidence and you never offer alternatives. Essentially, you're the crazy old man sitting in his rocking chair with his shotgun. Don't think many are going to take him seriously when he says the voices in his head are alive.

    I do have to say this, some of your stuff makes for some fun readin'!

    • 3 votes
    #1.37 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:12 AM EDT
    Perrie

    Dr Logic,

    Why do you try? You think the above company is even listening. If they read the latest Pew poll, they would realize that their party is in decline (about 22% of the electorate recognizes themselves as Republicans), that the independents are at an all time high, (36%) of which 52% of their vote went to Obama, and only 44% went to McCain. The Gallop polled along those lines as well.

    The Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

    Gallup

    Just ignore them. They are just digging themselves a deeper hole.

    • 1 vote
    #1.38 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:51 AM EDT
    kissmyarsenal

    DoctorLogic,

    How and why would you act like the Democrats have had no input into America the last 8 years? Why would you intentionally mislead those who were inattentive to current events as they passed them by?

    Obama was in the Senate and the Democrats ran the HoR and Senate for the 2 years before Obama became President -- remember? Democrats were at the wheel and steered it to where we are now -- high unemployment, poor economy, low confidence in government, major loss of wealth, impending massive inflation, and a blitzkrieg on freedom and liberty. If that was your intention and you find that good and a source of pride, then fess up and take credit for your party's work.

    Quit causing an effect and blaming it on others. I'll bet you do that when you fart, too.

    • 2 votes
    #1.39 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
    Anita Bail Out

    Democrats have been in charge of both houses of congress for the past three years. Your party has been screwing over the American people since 2007. How long should we wait for you to take responsibility for their actions? For the last two years in office, GWB may have been president, but the LEGISLATORS who MAKE THE LAW were democrats. Tell us how proud you are.

    Quit causing an effect and blaming it on others. I'll bet you do that when you fart, too.

    KMA, do you remember that old joke about the date coming over for dinner with some intestinal issues? When he realized the dog was sitting underneath his dinner chair, he started letting them fly. The girl's father repeatedly calls the dog's name. The date continues blasting away, and finally the father calls the dog saying, "Get over here, before that man @!$%#s all over you!"

    • 4 votes
    #1.40 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
    kissmyarsenal

    I hadn't heard that version but it is quite good and very apropos to the Democrats!

    • 2 votes
    #1.41 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 11:46 AM EDT
    DeeDee-911031

    Lee -

    What are you willing to do to make the world a better place? Spend a little extra money for your kids futures?

    Spending a little extra is not the issue here. The issue is that it's not going to be a little extra, and I will explain why.

    Most people in this country have no clue how much the trucking industry affects every aspect of their lives.

    I remember back in 2005 going to Walmart and spending $100 to $125 every week just for groceries, and complaining bitterly about it. Now I can't get out of the grocery store for under $145 to $160, and increase of (roughly) 50% over a 5 year period!!!

    Why? Because the cost of fuel went up.

    When fuel costs soared, many trucking companies went out of business and all trucking companies had to substancially increase their shipping charges. Roughly 85% of all foreign and domestic goods in the US are, at some point, transported via semi tractor trailor. So an increase in shipping charges translates into an increase in the price of goods - every thing from food to clothing to furniture, tires, autos, CD's, DVD's, electronics, office products... and the list goes on & on. A dollar here, a few pennies there, it all adds up.

    So, we are not only going to see an increase in our electric bills, but also in our consumables and, once again! in the price we pay at the pump!!!

    So let's start with this: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=avLVPogS6lh0

    Under the Waxman-Markey climate bill that may be voted on today by the U.S. House, refiners would have to buy allowances for carbon dioxide spewed from their plants and from vehicles when motorists burn their fuel.

    Carbon permits would add 77 cents a gallon to the price of gasoline, said Russell Jones, the API’s senior economic adviser.

    And that translates into an increase yet again in shipping charges. The average semi tractor trailor gets just 8 miles to the gallon. The trucking company cannot afford to eat a 77 cent per gallon price increase, they will have to pass in on to the suppliers, who will, in turn, pass it on to the consumer.

    • 5 votes
    #1.42 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 6:17 PM EDT
    Anita Bail Out

    The libs are about to get schooled on "trickle down economics..."

    What are you willing to do to make the world a better place? Spend a little extra money for your kids futures?

    LOL!! A little extra money? What are you smoking and can I get some? Our economy, along with our kids' future, is circling the drain. Think things are bad now? You ain't seen NOTHING yet!

    • 3 votes
    #1.43 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 7:06 PM EDT
    frostyone

    It's going to be worse than under Carter. inflation and interest rates will spike and unemployment may hit 24% at the current trend.

    • 2 votes
    #1.44 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 9:48 PM EDT
    katlin

    fox did a very interesting piece called obamageddon , an interview with celente. it is somewhat chilling and eye opening..

    • 3 votes
    #1.45 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 10:34 PM EDT
    frostyone

    katlin, really? huh i didnt see that one, maybe they'll show it again it sounds like an interesting interview

    I've always contended that the power that destroyes america will be people in the USA destroying the manufacturing base and the family structure.

    • 2 votes
    #1.46 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 11:11 PM EDT
    Anita Bail Out

    Click on my name and then look at my (one and only!) seed. I watched it this morning and put it on the vine. Its called "The Bailout Bubble - The Bubble to End All Bubbles."

    • 4 votes
    #1.47 - Sun Jul 5, 2009 11:43 PM EDT
    katlin

    you can just go to the fox website and look up obamageddon. it aired on july 4th. congrats anita I will look it up.

    • 3 votes
    #1.48 - Mon Jul 6, 2009 2:20 AM EDT
    frostyone

    thanks katlin i will

    • 2 votes
    #1.49 - Mon Jul 6, 2009 3:33 AM EDT
    Reply
    Conservative in California

    Analysis: Climate bill may spur energy revolution

    Russians had a revolution once too. How'd that work out for them?

    I love how the government thinks it will spur on the technological innovations that science has yet to invent to make alternative energy feasible or cost effective.

    • 8 votes
    #2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:55 PM EDT
    wude121

    CC

    Ask Spain how them green jobs are going?

    • 9 votes
    #2.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
    Conservative in California

    Come on...2.2 jobs lost for every 1 green job created is success to the Global Warming Theocrats. So is $722k per green job.

    Works so terribly over in Spain, let's import failure to America, while China, India, and Russia laugh at our stupidity.

    • 12 votes
    #2.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:14 PM EDT
    ComSen

    I find it interesting that the article is built as "Analysis" but it appears the analysis is that of the author. Is this reporter qualified on environmental and economical analysis? I doubt it.

    • 6 votes
    #2.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:32 PM EDT
    polecolaw

    What most are missing in this discussion is that the cost of energy is currently very heavily subsidized. We don't currently pay for the pollution that results from each gallon of gas we burn. Nor is the cost of our military ventures in strategically important (read oil rich) regions of the world. Take into account the cost of military policing, the give backs in trade we make to assure stable oil supplies, the eventual cost of cleaning the air, and put that all into a gallon of gasoline. Now how much does it cost?

    Get real - this is an attempt to shift the paradime from the old, dependency riddled military backed energy policy to a new, independent and more peaceful policy. For those who think the markets should straighten this all out I say fine, but then charge the true market price for energy including all of the costs to society of securing the supplies and cleaning up after. Otherwise this is a subsidized market, and we know how much conservatives hate subsidies.

    • 6 votes
    #2.4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT
    EllieP

    Hi polecolaw!

    Let me pitch a couple of rebuttals out here. If we really were devoted to the "peaceful" strategy you mention, why do we not drill more of our own resources and aggressively pursue nuclear? Or, why not get serious about using domestic natural gas for public transportation and/or incentivize conversions to CNG? Or, how about coughing up to partner with South Africa on clean coal? After all, we have lots of that. And, this all about "jobs, jobs, JOBS!!"

    The underlying (or over-riding) real goal of Cap/Trade is not so energy-related but political. Those who support it supported Kyoto and the wealth transfer involved. That is what they hope to achieve by passing Cap/Trade. The fact it is failing to achieve its goals in Europe and Australia would give pause if the real goal was American jobs and reduced greenhouse emissions.

    If passed, the U.S. bill will probably commit to the headline figure of a 17% reduction (from a 2005 baseline) in carbon dioxide emissions by 2020. Before signing any bill which would reduce America's competitiveness for little real impact on emissions, President Obama may want to heed the warning of Europe's experience.

    All this hullabaloo for CO2 when the greater greenhouse "gas" is water vapor. And still they don't pay attention. Why is that?

    • 6 votes
    #2.5 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:56 PM EDT
    maschwar77

    Revolution is a word that is being thrown around too much and overused. It is becoming very trite.

    • 2 votes
    #2.6 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:23 PM EDT
    maschwar77

    Conservative in California, please provde a citation for your statement of 2.2 jobs lost per 1 green job created.

    • 4 votes
    #2.7 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:35 PM EDT
    Boomer-856351

    For mashwar77

    "The study calculates that the programs creating those jobs also resulted in the

    destruction of nearly 110,500 jobs elsewhere in the economy, or 2.2 jobs

    destroyed for every “green job” created."

    http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090327-employment-public-aid-renewable.pdf

    • 3 votes
    #2.8 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:02 PM EDT
    katlin

    our power co gets alot of it from the nuclear power plant in our area..I live within 100 miles of one and it is safe and our electic rates have been very reasonable...I have not feared for my families safety and our disease rate is no worse than anywhere else....we need more of these plants, not less.....there is no way that windmills will be able to support the amount of energy we use..

    • 3 votes
    #2.9 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:12 AM EDT
    Bob Nelson.

    Boomer and CiC,

    Did you actually read your own source? If so, why are you trying to use it in a way that its author himself refuses?

    Therefore, while it is not possible to directly translate Spain’s experience with exactitude to claim that the U.S. would lose at least 6.6 million to 11 million jobs, as a direct consequence were it to actually create 3 to 5 million “green jobs” as promised (in addition to the jobs lost due to the opportunity cost of private capital employed in renewable energy), the study clearly reveals the tendency that the U.S. should expect such an outcome.

    This study is clearly a pamphlet, an attack. Even so, the author refuses any sort of direct extrapolation to the US.

    You guys are either incompetent at quoting or intellectually dishonest. Take your pick...

      #2.10 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:46 AM EDT
      hhabilis

      No Bob, you're misreading the quote you chose. The author concludes that "the study clearly reveals the tendency that the U.S. should expect such an outcome." (emphasis mine)

      The author simply states that Spain's experience cannot be applied to the U.S. "with exactitude", meaning that although the numbers won't be the same, the effect will be.

      • 2 votes
      #2.11 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:19 AM EDT
      Bob Nelson.

      Yeah... so Senor Alvarez is saying, roughly, that we should expect some degree of jobs deficit, but he very explicitly says we should not try to extrapolate any sort of proportionality. Boomer and CiC do exactly that.

      And... You have no comment on their use of the quote?!

      You say that I am misreading the text? But you say nothing about them?

      You have a very careful way of reading: it excludes some parts while retaining others...

      • 1 vote
      #2.12 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:03 AM EDT
      wude121

      The author simply states that Spain's experience cannot be applied to the U.S.

      True then cost analysis of the size will have a more detrimental effect on its people.

      http://nvkumar.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/the-top-10-economies-of-the-world-and-the-recession/

      And a new tax will help? Spain was 8th with 14.2 t gdp in January 09.

      and as of April 09 its unemployment.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8016364.stm

      Then we have to look at the real Numbers and can we afford such.

      from a poster:

      The real rate in the USA is over 20%. If Spain uses the real rate would that make their real rate 40%?

      • 1 vote
      #2.13 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
      Bob Nelson.

      wude,

      Sorry... but I did not understand your post. Could you reformulate, please?

      • 1 vote
      #2.14 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:30 PM EDT
      maschwar77

      Boomer, that is interesting but really the study isn't pertinent to the United States. It was conducted at a foriegn University.

      • 1 vote
      #2.15 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
      wude121

      Bob my point is the cost is not truly in the estimate of the overall negative effect to the country as a whole. The first link was the GDP figures in Jan 09 after they announced that we were formally in a recession. We had been in it since early 08, The management and budget office figures were what -5.9 as of April for the 1 st Quarter this year. To me that was a big deception.

      I am in transportation ind and almost half of my operating expense's are tied up in cost of energy, not to mention then comes personal expenses.

      The second link was If we follow Spain how do we get our unemployment numbers back to where they are tolerable, when ours are not correctly adhered to fact.

      One more point the in 2000 this happened; a small change that brought about big changes 7 years later.

      http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/caa90/15.htm

      Fine the transportation industry were told to absorb the cost of this, but the negative effect was it affected the whole economy at the refining level. Less makes more profit if your in the oil business.

      So in my view this (Tax) is a backdoor attempt in refurbishing the empty coffers.

      • 1 vote
      #2.16 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:52 PM EDT
      Nofluer

      First - I believe the recession/depression officially began in December of 07.

      Second - don't blame the Republicans for not telling you. There is an academic body of economists, non-governmental economists, (people like Anna Jacobson Schwartz) that decides when recessions officially begin and end. There is a lag between the time they actually begin and end, and the time this board gets around to telling everyone that, "Yep! Gottcha! You're in a recession." And they told us long before 09.

      So - as much as there is that we can all blame the RINO Bush Neocons for (as opposed to "the Republicans") - withholding information about when recessions begin or end is not one of them, so please make another selection of the many things and blame them for that.

      Thank you for paying attention. ;-)

      • 4 votes
      #2.17 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:39 PM EDT
      Reply
      greg-709692

      I can't see jobs being created anytime soon, as the expenses for conversion by the power companies, will have to come from raising rates and bank loans. I guess you'd say it would be bank loans first, then raising rates to pay for the extra company outlays.

      Then you have the problem right now, of the banks loaning the money. They aren't doing it yet, as they have to get all their toxic assests fixed first, and that will take years, unless the government fixes it right now.

      What was I thinking. The government needs our money to pay for the bailouts and stimulus.

      Lets say it may take longer than I'll be alive before this happens..

      • 4 votes
      Reply#3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:59 PM EDT
      Indepvoter

      If the money is to be provided from bank loans, and if the banks do loan the money to power companies, won't that mean less money available to small business, and private citizens? Or at the very least a raise in interest rates as the demand for money grows...

      I think investing in new energy is smart. Let the huge oil companies, and power companies take their profits and invest in new energy. Every industry has to invest in Research and Development in order to stay competitive.

      Doesn't it strike anybody else as odd, our politicians are passing this bill (With whatever it has in it, nobody knows) as they also pass stimulus money to create "Green Energy" this bill creates a market for their expensive Green Energy. However, America is already having difficulty competing in the global economy. You can't have it all. Clean Earth, High paying jobs, healthcare, education etc. Someone has to pay for this, if we have no jobs and no businesses and only a huge government, who will continue to pay for all of these excellent ideals?

      • 4 votes
      #3.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:59 PM EDT
      maschwar77

      I think the hope is that by creating a "Green" Industry America will come out of its recession cum depression and again be a sizeable economic force. To my understanding, that is what this bill is going to do.

      • 5 votes
      #3.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:28 PM EDT
      hhabilis

      If you think that, maschwar 77, I recommend you follow ElliePhat's "to wit" link in #1.19.

      • 5 votes
      #3.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:43 PM EDT
      Reply
      MCSALEM

      Well why do I feel the politicians will blow this, exactly like they blew the bail out bill. Yes they did what they did purposely, but who will be in there pockets this time? Remember most politicians are lawyers they know what a person can do to manipulate any law. They wrote sloppy laws so there friends and themselves would benefit in ways which are clear now. Look at the Federal reserve appointments by Obama. Look I voted for him but he is a new world order guy which we knew going in but I was shocked he won't change world trade to make it fairer for the United States. He is like all the rest anti american. I don't know about the rest of America but here in Oregon we dont burn coal. We use mostly dams and wind our electric bill constantly go up and we have a utility board which allows this. I am at my end of the hikes. I cant afford to put a turbine on my house its like 50.000.00 and only gives 15% reduction and truthfully I don't even know if the city allows it. I can't move without them telling me to. Now I also have to pay a fee on my electric bill for people who can afford electricity. This is socialism and truthfully we have been socialists for years. California is broke because it educates and medicates and does dental work on Mexico. The truth is its all good except this country can't afford it. Were broke and we are out of work.

      MC IN SALEM

      • 7 votes
      Reply#4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:04 PM EDT
      endtimesmama

      I know exactly who is in their pockets. GE contributed largely to the Obama campaign and they will make millions from the energy tax bill. Paybacks again, just like the stimulus bill. So did ACORN, Hamas, Hezbollah and who knows who else. When do they get their paybacks and what will it cost us?

      • 6 votes
      #4.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:43 PM EDT
      Bob Nelson.

      It's that great Acorn-GE-Hezbollah Conspiracy! Youpeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Truly amazed ô¿ô

        #4.2 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:50 AM EDT
        Reply
        Conservative in California

        All this destruction of American national intersts and our economy for what? To satisfy the beliefs of those who have complete faith in the religion of global warming, despite all facts, data, and science contrary to the global warming dogma. Welcome to the global warming theocracy.

        • 10 votes
        Reply#5 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
        Zed-7

        To satisfy the beliefs of those who have complete faith in the religion of global warming, despite all facts, data, and science contrary to the global warming dogma...

        Yeah, really. You said it, CC. We need to worry about the Here and Now! Let the next generation figure it out. So what if the Polar ice caps melt? They've melted before and the earth did just fine. And there have been Ice Ages before. The earth has gone through lots of cycles of hot and cold. So what if we humans are making the hot cycle come a little sooner? I'll be long gone before it gets too hot. And oil and coal are natural. God put oil and coal on the earth for one reason. So that we humans can use them for our enjoyment. Why else would God have given us all that carbon-based energy? All I want is plenty of cheap energy to heat and cool my house. And cheap gas too so I can drive my RV around and see the sights and visit with friends. I've worked hard. I deserve to enjoy my life without all these politicians interfering. Let's just enjoy the natural resources that God gave us. Everything will work out just fine if those "do-gooders" will just stop trying to mess with Mother Nature.

        • 3 votes
        #5.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:27 PM EDT
        Conservative in California

        The earth has cooled in the last decade.

        Check out the latest EPA report. Oh wait, the Obama administration buried it, because the results didn't conform with their global warming religion agenda.

        • 7 votes
        #5.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:31 PM EDT
        Zed-7

        The earth has cooled in the last decade.

        Good to know, CC. I like cool weather better than hot anyway. So, I'm glad to hear that. Plus, my electric bill this summer will be lower if the earth is cooling off. And, I can use that extra money. I've been wanting a Yamaha Rhino 4x4. It has 7.3 inches of suspension travel so I can go anywhere I want.

        • 2 votes
        #5.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT
        maschwar77

        I cannot stand the Global Warming dogma either. Rather we should have laws passed so that we protect the environment for no other reason than it is the right thing to do, preserves the earth for future generations, and makes out present generations lives healthier. Clean energy should not be motivated by fear of global warming. We should just be good stewards.

        • 4 votes
        #5.4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:38 PM EDT
        Zed-7

        ...preserves the earth for future generations, and makes out present generations lives healthier...We should just be good stewards.

        Yeah, I agree totally, Maschwar. It's all about supply and demand. If clean energy were cheaper than energy that spews out CO2, I'd buy it. Otherwise, we're gonna have a problem cause I don't have money laying around. Those energy companies better find a way to make cheap energy and be good stewards, so the earth will be around for future generations. Although, I hear we're overdue for a comet impact that will destroy all life on earth anyway (except maybe the microbes at the bottom of the ocean).

        • 3 votes
        #5.5 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:38 PM EDT
        Indepvoter

        Zed,

        Even if you agree with Cap and Trade, do you feel experts should actually read this legislation? Do you feel we should have Transparency, prior to bills being voted into laws?

        • 2 votes
        #5.6 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:46 PM EDT
        Reply
        Rixar13

        You can either roll with the punches or whine, which will it be?

        — Congress has taken its first step toward an energy revolution, with the prospect of profound change for every household, business, industry and farm in the decades ahead.

        Acceptance is for posterity and our children.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#6 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
        Conservative in California

        Analysis: Climate bill may spur energy revolution

        Revolution? I do not welcome the Global Warming Theocracy. What ever happened to capitalism? More socialism and fascism. More government control. Less individual liberties.

        Jobs to go overseas to China, India, and Mexico where they will pollute as much as they want.

        • 9 votes
        Reply#7 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
        eriq samson

        CIC - so you would rather not have a free market determine how we reduce our carbon footprint (or was this just another blame the other guy for your poor polluting choices comment)

        • 2 votes
        #7.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:00 PM EDT
        maschwar77

        Okay, Conservative in California, now you are going from an intelligent, well thought out argument to baseless attacks. You need to wikipeadia Facism and understand its true meaning before you go ahead and throw words and terms around like that. Socialism and Facism are also opposities, technically.

        • 4 votes
        #7.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:40 PM EDT
        Reply
        redsfan

        Such a law would impact how much people pay to heat, cool and light their homes (it would cost more); what automobiles they buy and drive (smaller, fuel efficient and hybrid electric); and where they will work (more "green" jobs, meaning more environmentally friendly ones).

        I already have a hybrid car and I love it. I'm willing to pay more for power if it helps save the environment, and the economy is in the can already...so why not try to help the environment while we're restarting the economy.

        • 7 votes
        Reply#8 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT
        Conservative in California

        the economy can get worse, and cap and trade will make it worse, while not helping the environment. It will make the GE/Al Gore crowd rich.

        Not sure how a worthless dollar, double digit inflation, interest rates, and unemployment helps the environment except by more people dying and less economic activity creating pollution.

        • 6 votes
        #8.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:22 PM EDT
        Sharn CedarDeleted
        Indepvoter

        Redsfan,

        I did a lot of research on the hybrid cars regarding their potential environmental issues. It seems that depending on the Model you bought a hybrid can be a savings to you. Especially if you bought one that qualifies for a tax rebate. Over all, however the expense of the car is likely not less, but if the cost is spread out the all tax payers in the form of tax credit you personally might be saving money.

        There has been much talk about the batteries in hybrid's and the impact on the planet, there are some who say they are safe and others who say they aren't. Bottom line is they are getting safer and lasting longer, the technology is improving. I don't want to own one yet. However, thanks to early adopters the hybrid cars will continue to improve.

        In my area, they are building wind farms, which produce energy that is cleaner as long as you don't mind looking at acres of white wind mills. We can choose on our electric bill to pay more and utilize this more expense energy. I am in favor of BUSINESS developing new methods of generating energy, so I personally make this choice, to pay for and fund this new energy experiment. I am hoping this will expand our search for new cleaner energy. If windmills aren't the answer, maybe they are a step to finding the answer. I can afford to pay a bit more for power, as it sounds like you can. However, my husband's grandma who lives modestly off her savings can not. In the current system, she can choose not to. PERFECT.

        Where I get upset, is when government funds this move in huge amounts and passes laws which offer limits, but little guideness in how to acheive the desired amounts. The bill in question is huge, sweeping, and mostly not understood, by politicians or the general population. I think we need more time to review the costs, vrs benefits. I also thought we already paid for a huge amount of "green" energy with the stimulus bill.

        I am not extreme on either side of "Green" movement. There are stil more questions than answers about Climate Change, and some people have just blindly signed on (or off) of the "Green" movement and believe anything they are told. Or disbelieve anything they are told.

        I guess my only point, is let's definately continue to look for ways to reduce carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels, but let's do it smart. Let's give people and business options they can afford to choose, if government most be involved let's at least make them read and ponder what is in the bill, let's hear from envirnmental and financial experts what the likely out comes will be. Even for those who are for government regulation, don't you want to know what they are passing. At the very least, don't you want them to at least know what they are passing?

        • 2 votes
        #8.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:04 PM EDT
        Bob Nelson.

        CiC,

        Not sure how a worthless dollar, double digit inflation, interest rates, and unemployment helps the environment except by more people dying and less economic activity creating pollution.

        And how do you attribute "worthless dollar" (which happend over the last couple decades), "double digit inflation" (umm... prices are declining), "interest rates" (current Fed rates are effectively zero, the lowest in history), and "unemployment" (a disaster clearly due to financial madness) to an environmental law that has just been passed?

        Wow.

        • 1 vote
        #8.4 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:58 AM EDT
        Reply
        Sharn CedarDeleted
        hhabilis

        Congress has taken its first step toward an energy revolution, with the prospect of profound change for every household, business, industry and farm in the decades ahead.

        Yup - profound change all right. Poverty for everyone as a result of expending our effort and treasure trying to solve a "problem" that doesn't exist, based on flawed computer models that can't even replicate known events, because the models are derived from invalid assumptions which are flatly contradicted by hard data.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#10 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
        hhabilis

        Copy of a post I made to Ellie Phat's seed on this topic (The Cap and Tax Fiction):

        This is must reading for anyone who is concerned with the implications of climate change, the justification for this bill:

        http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf

        It is a draft report by the EPA's own National Center for Environmental Economics, citing specific issues which must be addressed before the EPA can objectively determine the level of endangerment posed by atmospheric CO2, and calling into question many of the assumptions and data analyses used to justify EPA regulation. The paper was suppressed by the EPA for political, not scientific reasons.

        Remember: it's a draft, and there's some tough sledding along the way, but so far (I'm only about 1/3 of the way through) it's the best summary yet of the major scientific weaknesses of the AGW hypothesis. Don't be a lemming.

        • 3 votes
        #10.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:32 PM EDT
        Sharn CedarDeleted
        Pacific Northwest Blogger

        re: cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf

        It is a draft report by the EPA's own National Center for Environmental Economics, citing specific issues which must be addressed before the EPA can objectively determine the level of endangerment posed by atmospheric CO2, and calling into question many of the assumptions and data analyses used to justify EPA regulation. The paper was suppressed by the EPA for political, not scientific reasons.

        I find the following to be more accurate:

        CARBONGATE Update: Scant evidence for charge that EPA 'suppressed' dissent

        UPDATE 6/26: The Competitive Enterprise Institute released a draft of the "suppressed" report, which confirms the EPA's explanation: The agency didn't think much of the report because it's authored by an economist claiming to be a climatologist.

        The Competitive Enterprise Institute claims in a release it sent this morning under the headline "BREAKING: EPA Suppresses Internal Global Warming Study."

        The free-market think tank, which has a history of intellectually hilarious denialism, says the "Environment Protection Agency" silenced an internal dissenter in the course of its endangerment finding, a process that concluded in April that greenhouse-gases threaten public health and can be regulated under the Clean Air Act.

        For every denial claim, it only takes days or weeks to find the funding that supported their reporting.

        • 6 votes
        #10.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:15 PM EDT
        hhabilis

        It is human nature to kill the messenger when confronted with information which destroys a paradigm. That does not invalidate the information; it merely leaves the recipient completely unprepared for the consequences.

        The CEI did not author the report; it was written by an EPA employee, and that fact was verified by the employee, his co-workers, and internal EPA correspondence.

        Read the report: as well as pointing out instances of deliberate obfuscation by AGW adherents, the author cites multiple peer-reviewed sources for data and analysis which directly contradict the AGW hypothesis; anyone can find and read these sources for themselves. These sources, using hard data, poke sufficiently large holes in the assumptions used by the AGW modelers as to render their conclusions meaningless.

        • 5 votes
        #10.4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
        Reply
        Conservative in California

        Let me know when the best scientists and meterologists can tell me what the temperature will be one week from now at noon, and maybe I might put some stock in this global warming religion. Until then, don't try to tell me what the weather will be like 25 years from now.

        • 7 votes
        Reply#11 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:38 PM EDT
        conjm

        That is hillarious!!!! and sooo true! i checked the weather report for this weekend yesterday, while it was thunder storming and it said current weather conditions were sunny, 10% chance of rain.

        • 4 votes
        #11.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
        redsfan

        http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/03/we-cant-even-predict-weather-next-week.php

        • 3 votes
        #11.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT
        Reply
        conjm

        These green jobs are a joke! I would like every tree hugging liberal to know that solar and wind energy is the most inefficient way to produce energy. It takes more energy to make the materials for these systems than will ever be saved by using them.This is truly "the end of prosperity". How sad :(

        • 7 votes
        Reply#12 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:40 PM EDT
        Sharn CedarDeleted
        Sharn CedarDeleted
        Green Blog

        Hmmm... More taxes or a habitable planet. What a tough decision!

        Also: Would You Pay $175 to Save the Climate? A definitive new cost estimate debunks a common criticism of a cap-and-trade carbon regulation as a $3,000-plus "energy tax."

        This debate has sprung largely from a Republican misreading (why not be generous?) of an MIT study that led pundits and politicians to cry about the perils of a new "energy tax" that might cost American households $3,100 every year. (Though that claim has been thoroughly debunked, I seem to hear it every other Saturday in the Republican response to President Obama's weekly address.) The author of the MIT study puts the cost at $800, while the conservative Heritage Foundation estimated the annual cost at $1,500 and the Environmental Protection Agency estimated the cost at just $140 or lower.

        It's just to bad that this bill is far to weak to be able to avert the worst effects of man-made climate change.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#15 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:53 PM EDT
        Boomer-856351

        This is nothing but another scheme for groups like Goldman-Sachs to get rich. Check and see who is really pushing to get this passed.

        http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html

        • 3 votes
        #15.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:18 PM EDT
        Reply
        wayne'ster

        This will never work this globull warming scam.All funds will simply be pi**ed away and lost in the coming red tape in a soon to be released Madoff-like sequel.

        • 7 votes
        Reply#16 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:54 PM EDT
        Boomer-856351

        Hey Wayne. Read the piece in the latest Rolling Stone by Matt Taibbi. It is titled The Great American Bubble Machine. It is a very good piece of journalism describing how Goldman-Sachs has pretty much engineered all the Bubbles including the $4.00 per gallon gas. Guess who is lobbying hard and strong for this Cap-and-trade nonsense....Goldman- Sachs. It's the next big boondoogle.

        • 5 votes
        #16.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:05 PM EDT
        Bob Nelson.

        Hey wayne'ster,

        Great name change. No improvement in content, though...

          #16.2 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:01 AM EDT
          Perrie

          Bob,

          That's not the same wayne...as in waynster. They are two different people. Stange...both on the same page!

            #16.3 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:43 AM EDT
            Bob Nelson.

            No improvement in content, either...

            ...

            ... ... ... OK, I'll stop.

            ;-)

              #16.4 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
              Reply
              Sebbydad

              It isn't even about spending extra money, do people realize how many tax breaks are given to oil and coal companies to produce what they do now? Take those breaks away from them and apply thm to solar, geothermal, wind, tidal and any other non-polluting energy producing process and the deal is done. Even without those we are now at a point where solar can be competitive in some markets. Add tax incentives and all bets are off. The $311mm plan to install 100 sqare miles of thinfilm solar photovoltaic cells in the phoenix area to produce eletricity for the city becomes a profit making enterprise in less than 5 years with equivalenbt tax breaks that oil and coal get. what would have been 11 cents per kW/h becomes .6 cents per kW/h without pollution and no additional costs to gather and transport fuel.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#17 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
              hhabilis

              what would have been 11 cents per kW/h becomes .6 cents per kW/h without pollution

              Without pollution? You don't know much about semiconductor manufacturing processes, do you?

              • 4 votes
              #17.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:01 PM EDT
              Reply
              luci-373507

              How long before we impeach the present administration for going against the will of the people? Call or write your senators today and tell them to vote NO. If they don't, well, there you go...whose interest do they have at heart?

              There is no such thing a global warming. The tree huggers are after your money. Like Madoff, they will take it, never show remorse and keep going. Too many are buying into this lie. It's all over the TV and internet--GO Green. Of course, while Gore rakes in millions for himself, he keeps paying thousands a month in utilities for his uppity house. What a hypocrite.

              BULL. That's all it is.

              • 6 votes
              #18 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:57 PM EDT
              conjm

              i called mine yesterday and was told by one of his staffers that i didn't know what i was talking about and that the calls for this bill were 5-1 in favor. Today i hear that the calls were 10-1 against. They say the conservatives are the minority now i think that we need a million cons march on Washington. i have a child on the way and i am trying to save as much money as possible, i work 80+ hrs a week but i would take the time to protest congress and then walk right up Pennsylvania ave. to the white house and show them just how many of us there are. Heck i would rent a bus and bring everyone i know.

              • 6 votes
              #18.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:02 PM EDT
              redsfan

              I called mine and told them thanks for voting for it...then I contacted the Republicans that voted for the bill and thanked them. I'm glad they were able to look past partisan politics and do what is best for this country and our planet.

              • 8 votes
              #18.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
              Boomer-856351

              Contacted mine. Guess what he did? He wasn't even there for there for the vote. I'll return the sentiment in Nov 2010.

              • 4 votes
              #18.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:32 PM EDT
              conjm

              Its not about politics its about reality! Its about the American worker. These green jobs dont work! The only partisan politics come from your side. The evidence is right in front of your face and you refuse to acknowledge it. We will see how much you care about the environment when you are starving. You and everyone like you are F'n idiots. i dont know how else to say it. Green jobs are a crock period!!! I love how tree huggers like you, who don't know anything about blue collar people(coal miners,roughnecks,factory workers), tell us how we are going to make a living. What the heck are you leaches gonna do when the last group of producers stop producing and there is no one left to give a hand out to you.

              • 5 votes
              #18.4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:40 PM EDT
              eriq samson

              "These green jobs don't work" - you mean like the GM worker who used to build Chevy Suburban's now building Chevy Volts? The plastic worker building plastic toys in a plant that dumps there pollution now working in the same factory with a recycling system in place?

              Do you have the slightest idea what you are talking about?

              • 2 votes
              #18.5 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:12 PM EDT
              Tim-694587

              No eriq you dont have any clue

              • 2 votes
              #18.6 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:53 PM EDT
              eriq samson

              Actually, you might have read the article first; your comment makes you out as a fool; all I did was paraphrase examples in the article.

              • 1 vote
              #18.7 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:42 AM EDT
              Bob Nelson.

              Hey, luci!

              Very clever of you to save time and effort, by copying / pasting your comments from one discussion to another. Your post here is identical to the one on

              http://righteousanger.newsvine.com/_news/2009/06/27/2975746-we-wont-have-jobs-but-well-have-windmills-and-solar-panels

              So... I'll just copy / paste my answer:

              Americans' ignorance of their own political system is stunning.

              How long before we impeach the present administration for going against the will of the people?

              Never. Not possible. The Constitution (Article II, Section 4) is perfectly clear about the grounds for impeachment:

              The President ... shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

              Disagreement over policy is not grounds for impeachment. Not. Never. Won't happen.

              On the other hand, there's another disposition, much more commonly used than impeachment, that allows the people to remove a President. It happens every four years, and is called an "election". It also allows the people to install or maintain a President, as they did, massively, only a few months ago.

              ---

              Perhaps it is a good thing that people who deny global warming should also make such egregious errors about their own political system. They themselves demonstrate their ignorance. A reader may presume that if a poster is so stupidly wrong about impeachment, then their opinion on global warming is probably equally stupidly wrong. ... ... which it is!

              • 3 votes
              #18.8 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:08 AM EDT
              Perrie

              @Bob,

              It pains me to do so, since you called me a right wing mole, but I have to agree with all of the above!

              So is my hand still caught in the cookie jar, or does that only apply when I disagree with you?

              @Luci,

              How long before we impeach the present administration for going against the will of the people?

              Besides the small little details that Bob explained are the reasons for impeachment, it seems that President Obama is not going against the will of the people, or have you not seen his approval ratings?

              http://www.gallup.com/poll/118306/obama-approval-picks-up-may.aspx

              As for the song and dance about global warming or not, I just finished doing that at another article, and it is getting old. But just for the record, you can neither prove nor disprove global warming from a scientific point of view. Why not be conservative, an err on the side of the planet.....it is the only one we have.

              • 2 votes
              #18.9 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:00 PM EDT
              Bob Nelson.

              Hi, Perrie,

              Sometimes cookies are good!

              ;-)

                #18.10 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
                conjm

                eriq,

                The suburban is still one of gm's top sellers. Just bought a new one myself and i had to order it because they were out of models with leather.People like me who have worked hard like to play hard and team of volts or a prius's won't tow my supercharged v8 ski boat, or my motorcycle trailer, or my race car trailer. The volt will never sell like a large truck or suv. People dont want cars that won't get out of their own way. You fail to see the problem here the Government is now gonna tell us what cars to drive, how to build our houses and businesses and how we live. Nothing you idiots say is new you want things your way no matter who's freedom it tramples on. I keep driving my low gas mileage v8 monster machines no matter what you tyrannical liberals say and the funny thing is YOU CANT STOP ME.

                • 2 votes
                #18.11 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
                redsfan

                conjm - In another seed you said...

                I work in the petroleum production business and my father runs a coal mine.

                and now you said...

                prius's won't tow my supercharged v8 ski boat, or my motorcycle trailer, or my race car trailer

                while talking about buying a brand new Suburban. Wow...looks like you're doing pretty well in this recession.

                I guess we know now why you are so adamantly against any energy bill in congress...

                • 2 votes
                #18.12 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
                conjm

                I have done very well. Why is that wrong? I am against this bill because it hurts all of our our industries. Not just mine. This bill ,in conjunction with higher capital gains tax,will send jobs overseas. Period. If you have nothing more concrete than jealous attacks on me for my success then you need to really rethink your views. This bill is a recession amplifier and i welcome all challenges to prove how it is not. And just FYI saying that we are saving the environment doesn't address the point. This bill is not going to hurt my business one bit. if anything i will make more money than i did before. For the simple fact that it is just going to prove that solar and wind is not going to be able to replace oil.

                • 3 votes
                #18.13 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:38 PM EDT
                Nofluer

                My V-8 Crown Vic gets 26 mpg. My wife's V-6 GM gets 25 mpg. My 1982 V-8 350 1 T 4 dr truck gets about 8. (But I only drive it about 500 to 1000 miles a year. :-)

                I looked at the old junk for new junk list of vehicles and the minimum mileage the new junk have to get to be eligible as $4500 replacements for the old cars... My old cars beat most of them. And when I punch into the gas pedal on that CrownVic? It's like a ROCKET lit up in the car's tail pipe! You can have your GM Volts. I'll take my Ford Luxury Car that comes equipped with a real ENGINE! (Oh - and the tires and steering wheel were also included. :-D )

                • 2 votes
                #18.14 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:59 PM EDT
                Simplistic Reality

                I agree Nofluer! Also probably much safte then the crackerbox size cars like Europe has. Accident would = Tin Can.

                • 3 votes
                #18.15 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:13 PM EDT
                Perrie

                Bob has a sence of humor.....

                Must make note!

                Favorite cookie....Lorna Doones! or a madeliene...but is that a cookie or a cake?

                  #18.16 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:27 PM EDT
                  Indepvoter

                  redsfan,

                  I don't understand your comment about conjm's "doing well"? Is there a point? For some reason, I read it to imply there might be something wrong with that?

                  Can you clarify?

                  • 2 votes
                  #18.17 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:32 PM EDT
                  redsfan

                  My point was that if his father owns a coal mine...he is not exactly impartial when it comes to the subject of energy alternatives. And if he owns all those really nice toys (boats, motorcycles, race cars) from the coal mine, the $200-$300 the energy bill is going to cost him in 2020 is not exactly going to break his bank.

                  And mostly I'm being snarky because he is so rude and hateful in his posts about calling people "idiots" and his "freedom" being taken away which is just ridiculous.

                  But I shouldn't have answered him...I should have just ignored him...I just happened to see the other post and put it together and the hypocrisy just pissed me off momentarily. *sigh*

                  • 2 votes
                  #18.18 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:15 AM EDT
                  Indepvoter

                  I appreciate the response, and I appreciate the acknowledgment of "snarky". I try to avoid it also, but it happens to me too!

                  I also am opposed to the bill and strongly opposed to the "hurry up"ideal. My father is a small business owner, and my mother works at a library. :))

                  I still have a good income (crossing fingers, because I don't think we are done with the economic problems)

                  It is unthinkable to me to pass this legislation without giving it some proper time for reading and digesting it, as well as debate. I understand people wanting to support legislation for the environment. I respectfully ask you if you have read or understand the 1200+ page bill being pushed through to law?

                  I think the timing is terrible and neither American companies or the American people need further regulation and expenses at this time.

                  I don't want it to become socially unacceptable to succeed in this country. Hate tax law, resent huge corporations if you must, but don't attack those who are doing well. It is the upper middle class paying the taxes and being asked to pay more... :) It is also the toys that Conjm is purchasing that helps provide the jobs we still have.

                  It will do nobody any good if we make it socially irresponsible to be successful. It is now clear to me that is not what you were advocating.

                  • 1 vote
                  #18.19 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:24 AM EDT
                  Bob Nelson.

                  I respectfully ask you if you have read or understand the 1200+ page bill being pushed through to law?

                  No... but I do not have the staff that all Congresspeople have...

                  ---

                  It will do nobody any good if we make it socially irresponsible to be successful.

                  Quite right! Here are two clear distinctions that need to be made:

                  - Individual initiative is good. It is fulfilling to the individual, and benefits all of society.

                  - Individual initiative and Corporatism are inimical enemies.

                    #18.20 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:13 AM EDT
                    Indepvoter

                    Bob, are you assuming Congress read it?

                    • 2 votes
                    #18.21 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:32 AM EDT
                    Bob Nelson.

                    I'm assuming they had the means to read it.

                    Let's be serious here. Most intelligent people do not pretend to be experts on everything. We go to doctors because we believe in "expertise". We take the car to a "qualified" mechanic.

                    Whenever we meet a new problem, we have two options: invent a solution... or ask someone who knows. After enough screw-ups, trying that first option, most people learn to use the second...

                    I personally know next to nothing about climate. I count on the experts.

                    I would not be surprised that among the hundreds of staffers at Congress, there be a few real experts on any given subject; and that in reality most Congresspeople vote according to the opinions of these experts. In the present example, there is a need for expertise on climate, on industry, on market practices, on environmental impacts, ...

                    I would be very surprised to learn that even one single Congressperson is truly competent to develop an opinion on a bill like cap-and-trade... but I sincerely hope that they are capable of organizing a multi-discipline task force to do the job.

                    • 2 votes
                    #18.22 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:34 AM EDT
                    Anita Bail Out

                    I would be very surprised to learn that even one single Congressperson is truly competent to develop an opinion on a bill like cap-and-trade... but I sincerely hope that they are capable of organizing a multi-discipline task force to do the job.

                    And yet they ALL continue to display their incompetance like peacocks fanning their tail feathers. Staffers? Who are these people, exactly? You hope staffers are doing the research? They waive their ignorance in our faces and extort and exploit the American people (not just the the taxpayers) over and over and over again.

                    • 1 vote
                    #18.23 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:40 AM EDT
                    Nofluer

                    Like the "stimulus bill" they didn't read it for the simple reason that there was no bill to read. Congress is getting pretty good at voting for pigs in a poke!

                    Of course, they probably think that it's okay to do this since the American Voters did it last November when they elected NObama. (And contrary to popular belief and statements at the time, he was NOT wearing lipstick when he emerged from the poke.)

                    • 6 votes
                    #18.24 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
                    conjm

                    Sorry for late response REDSFAN. But if you read all my posts you would have read the fact that until my teenage years my family was DIRT poor. My dad took whatever job he could to put food on the table, which wasn't much since we live coal country. So the reason i am so "snarky" is because i am sooo tired of people, who know nothing about energy producing regions and the workers who live there, telling us how we are going to make a living and even that is not enough, you want to dig my pockets and give my money to somebody that won't hit a lick of nothing. And for your info i work 80-90hrs a week to pay for my toys, has anybody on your side of things ever thought about the fact that hard work actually pays off or are you so blinded by endless handouts you think that is what is normal. That comment was bait for someone like you to read and then attack me for my success to prove a point, and it worked!!! it was too easy!!!

                    • 2 votes
                    #18.25 - Mon Jul 6, 2009 11:28 PM EDT
                    Anita Bail Out

                    My bumper sticker says: Annoy a Liberal. Work Hard and Be Happy!

                    • 2 votes
                    #18.26 - Tue Jul 7, 2009 12:16 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    Boomer-856351

                    Hmmm... I guess I'd say the the kind of revolution it turns out to be depends on how jobs and standard of living are impacted here in the US.

                      Reply#19 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:58 PM EDT
                      Bob Nelson.

                      This is indeed the crux.

                      It is a simple fact that there must be a slowing of material growth. Perhaps, in a few decades, we will learn how to produce "stuff" without destroying the world... but under current conditions it is pure folly to imagine that six billion people can attain an American standard of living... while Americans themselves move on from the three-car garage to even more absurd "stuff".

                      We are indeed at a moment of choice: "change our ways or die".

                      • 3 votes
                      #19.1 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:14 AM EDT
                      Reply
                      Linda Luke

                      Analysis: Climate bill may spur energy revolution I hope they know what the hell they are doing. I guess the real word here is "MAY" and does that mean Maybe?

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#20 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
                      curious54

                      The environmentalist are just "SHEEPLE". "OH, We are trying to save the Planet" pure popycock.

                      The computer models only work in one direction forward. The world has given up on Global Warming because it doesn't exist. The environmentalist now talk about climate change. Well I got news for you. The climate been changing since the planet was formed.

                      This is nothing more than a government mandate to start using solar and wind. Both of these technologies are unreliable and expensive. We need to drill, build refineries and nuclear power plants. Stop trying to make yourself feel good and fix the economy.

                      For all of you who want a better future for you children start by telling the governement that you can better use your own money to build that future for your own kids and the government needs to leave us the hell alone.

                      • 6 votes
                      Reply#21 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:18 PM EDT
                      conjm

                      Whooooo!!!!!!!!!!HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! right on!!!!

                      • 5 votes
                      #21.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:42 PM EDT
                      hhabilis

                      This is nothing more than a government mandate to start using solar and wind. Both of these technologies are unreliable and expensive.

                      Reliability is improving and costs will come down with economies of scale, BUT: no alternative energy technology currently in production can deliver the kind of energy density necessary to replace our current configuration; at best, they can only serve as a supplement.

                      • 2 votes
                      #21.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDT
                      Perrie

                      no alternative energy technology currently in production can deliver the kind of energy density necessary to replace our current configuration; at best, they can only serve as a supplement.

                      This is correct. But without incentives to change, human nature is such that there will be no change. For instance, in England, once they implemented the Fuel Consumption Standards for vehicle fuel consumption, what was said to be impossible, suddenly became possible, and cars got better performance. Here is an old report of the improvement made in a 5 year period.

                      http://www.mlit.go.jp/english/mot_news/mot_news_981014/mot_news_981014_2.html

                      It's just like when JFK set the goal to get to the moon. If you set the goal, and are properly motivated, you can do more with less. And while you are in transition, is when you improve alternative energy till you don't need carbon based ones. But first you must admit there could be a problem, before you are motivated to do anything about it.

                      • 1 vote
                      #21.3 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:22 PM EDT
                      EllieP

                      But first you must admit there could be a problem, before you are motivated to do anything about it.

                      Perrie,

                      In another seed you point to the need for political flexibility. Here is an example of just that. and, it would lead me to disagree with this statement. The fact that I do not believe AGW is an adequately established theory in order to justify the financial raping of the country, BUT, I do support higher fuel efficiency, energy efficient appliances, alternatives to fossil fuels, clean air, etc., is a PRIME example of the flexibility. It is also win-win.

                      C&T is lose-win with the losers being American citizens and the winners being the politicians, scientists, corporations and unions who will receive monies and power for overseeing, adminstering, studying and producing less efficient energy. Let's not forget the energy lost in transit on solar/wind will more than eat up any advantage they may have. Nuclear is another subject, but most C&T advocates are squeamish or outright opposed to it.

                      • 3 votes
                      #21.4 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:11 PM EDT
                      Perrie

                      Ellie you made some good points. We differ only in the sense that I feel that measures must be taken for our environment, because I do believe that there is adequate evidence of global warming, but I don't like what this particular legislation is putting forth at this time. The economy can't support this now. If you remember I said that I didn't think that C&T was a good idea and that incentives are the way to go. Although nuclear energy has it's drawbacks, even Europe has conceded that it must be used for now as a viable alternative. So how am I not meeting you half way? I said I was against C&T, for nuclear energy, and supporting high efficiency appliances , and alternative fuels . Would you not say that for the most part that we are on the same page (with the exception of global warming....then look at it as a better environment, and cleaner air that your leaving your grandchildren) I really don't think that we are that far apart.

                        #21.5 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:12 PM EDT
                        EllieP

                        Oh, yes, Perrie, I think we are mostly on the same page. As I said, I've been looking at it as a cleaner environment for decades now. I've been buying EnergyStar applicance and windows, etc. Fuel efficient cars. Low-flow toilets, planting native plants, buying local produce. I'm cooperating here! Really!! It just doesn't seem to be enough for the AGW "true believers."

                        I don't know if you've been back yet, but I have answered your post in the other column, my friend.

                          #21.6 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:22 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          GetTheFacts-534839

                          Are they saying an governmental organization like this one:

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnYMxDYpCSA is actually going to work for the better climate? Who kidding, who?

                          We've got sooo much fraud in our government now, can you imagine what they would do with a bill like this?

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#22 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:49 PM EDT
                          conjm

                          "So we have a choice to make. We can remain one of the world's leading importers of foreign oil, or we can make the investments that would allow us to become the world's leading exporter of renewable energy. We can let climate change continue to go unchecked, or we can help stop it. We can let the jobs of tomorrow be created abroad, or we can create those jobs right here in America and lay the foundation for lasting prosperity." This is a direct quote from President Obama given March 19, 2009. But this administration, with the help of his cohort's in the legislative branch, seem to be doing everything possible to keep that from being a reality. Lets face it there is no possible way to find a renewable energy source without some sort of energy to bridge the gap. We can either get the energy from foreign countries or tap the vast natural resources, that are available right here in America. But the policies being put in to play are making the choice to continue to transfer wealth to foreign countries by eliminating tax write off's and raising taxes on oil and gas producers operating in the US. The current budget proposal includes eliminating the ability of energy producers to expense intangible drilling costs. These include the costs of exploration of new reserves. Expensing these costs are crucial to raising capital to continue drilling programs. This is a devastating blow to the oil and gas industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people. Most of us agree that we need to pursue a renewable energy source for the long term. To say that this will be done in the near future is overly optimistic. Pushing this will be a disaster. What we will end up with is unreliable technology that hasn't had time to be tried and tested. This administration refuses to see this. They say they want to reduce green house gases but do not put that into action. Natural gas powered cars produce very little emissions and greatly increase the life of automotive engines. And not to mention it is a whole lot cheaper. The fuel does not need to be refined and is readily available. Converting your car is relatively cheap when you add up the fuel savings.
                          Every company is in business for one reason, to make money. The oil and gas industry is no different. When companies do well the Amercian worker does well. Using a clean burning fuel taken from our soil by our workers helps the economy and the environment. So why does this Administration say one thing and introduce policies that are counteractive to their message? Could it be that they are telling the people what they want to hear, while all the while serving their own radical motives?

                          • 6 votes
                          Reply#23 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:54 PM EDT
                          hhabilis

                          conjm - good comment, and I voted it up; but I'd like to make a friendly suggestion: the use of paragraphs would make it a whole lot easier to read.

                          • 2 votes
                          #23.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:09 PM EDT
                          conjm

                          Thanks! It was a article i wrote that is in the Greenhouse. It looks like it changed the format when i copied and pasted it in the comment box. I appreciate the constructive criticism though! I am really not much of a writer.

                          • 3 votes
                          #23.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:35 PM EDT
                          EllieP

                          conjm, friend request sent. Hang in there!

                          • 2 votes
                          #23.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:40 PM EDT
                          Sherry-523975

                          conjm, thanks for the info.

                          I have absolutely no trust in the government anymore, especially when they tell me they are doing something for the good of the earth, or for our children. And when they are rushing it as a "crisis", I am even more skeptical.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.4 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:11 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          Kokayi

                          @ConCali how can anyone take you seriously? Waxman and Boxer are representatives from your state. If you can't stop this movement in your own state what makes you think your arguments would be effective elsewhere?

                          If I were you I would just get used to it. It's a done deal and we're all going to have to live with it. Mouthing off conservative talking points isn't going work. We've evovled beyond that kind of thinking. The Reagan/Bush era is over.

                          • 2 votes
                          Reply#24 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:40 PM EDT
                          CO2DOA

                          How can I get into the carbon industry? Going to be SO rich…! I could make people breath into a bag and I would have "captured" carbon and I will charge them for the process. Even sell them "carbon credits" so they can keep breathing. Then I can sell them even more credits for their children and their pets. It is going to be GREAT!

                          Everyone has to exhale carbon to live! Of course it will ruin plant life as they will have less carbon to thrive on, but WHO needs farms or plants altogether!? I could sell shacks on a plantation and allow the workers to earn carbon credits the longer they work the fields. Obviously, I will not pay them in a outdated currency because that creates carbon when it is created.

                          It's for the Earth -- for the greater good!

                          • 4 votes
                          Reply#25 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:15 PM EDT
                          margoharris

                          It is amazing how stunningly uninformed most people are. We are in real trouble people, I know all of you that poo-poo anything that is forward thinking and implemented to save the planet. You don't believe in anything that doesn't fit in with your "dead certain" reckless beliefs. Science, education all a "liberal" plot. LOL, but it really isn't funny because life on this planet is at stake. I know all of you regressive and swaggering non-believers in climate science would be the first ones when water and food shortages happened due to the warming of the planet to demand that government do something about it, immediately. Deny it's real now but howl when it bites you and all of us in the ass.

                          What we do KNOW is that:

                          1) CO2 concentrations are higher now than they've been for millions of years.

                          2) CO2 and other gases trap heat in our atmosphere and will increase the temperature of any dynamic system (such as the Earth)

                          3) The Earth's mean global temperatures has been rising steadily for the last century. Ignore small fluctuations, the global warming denialists focus on, they mean nothing. It is the long term trend that matters.

                          Anyone that has read any information on the subject knows the Earth is warming. That's a FACT, the measurements prove it, the science is in and the vast majority of climate scientists agree. You may not like it because you hve to take responsibility for your behaviour, arn't all you righties big on personal responsiblility, but it doesn't change things.

                          The effects are already taking it's toll in Banglidesh and Greenland, and other parts of the world. The glaciers are melting at a fast pace, the Himalayian glaciers provide water for a BILLION people where will these people go? The mass migration will cause famine and death. Same as the western states, California gets its water from the snow pack in the Sierra's, California grows much of the food we eat. Also it takes 10 lbs of corn to produce 1 lb of beef. This is all unsustainable. Mexico and South America would be toast and where do you think these people will flee to? What do we do shot them as they come over the border seeking food and water to save their children?

                          We are only 5% of the Earth's population but use 25% of the natural resources of the planet. If the rest of the world, which desires to have our "lifestyle" keep going in our direction we would need 4 PLANET EARTH'S TO ACHIEVE IT.

                          • 4 votes
                          #26 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:50 PM EDT
                          Tim-694587

                          Ok but dont tell the Glacier In south America Cause its gowing.

                          • 2 votes
                          #26.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:54 PM EDT
                          margoharris

                          What are you talking about exactly?

                          • 2 votes
                          #26.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:55 PM EDT
                          margoharris

                          tim=crickets

                          http://scienceline.org/2008/12/15/ask-konkel-tropical-glaciers-melting-andes-mountains-runoff-groundwater/

                          • 2 votes
                          #26.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:15 PM EDT
                          Justaguy-1173567

                          CO2 concentrations are higher now than they've been for millions of years.

                          What were the CO2 concentrations 500,00 years ago? I need a baseline average.

                          CO2 and other gases trap heat in our atmosphere and will increase the temperature of any dynamic system (such as the Earth)

                          I thought they would leak out of the hole in the OZONE.

                          The Earth's mean global temperatures has been rising steadily for the last century. Ignore small fluctuations, the global warming denialists focus on, they mean nothing. It is the long term trend that matters.

                          Ice Age 3 is coming out soon, and it is in 3D. What ever happened to the ICE AGE? Oh thats right when they invented fire all of the worlds Ice Melted. So easy...even a caveman could do it.

                          • 3 votes
                          #26.4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:21 PM EDT
                          margoharris

                          The information is out there if you are interested in learning.

                          It's not funny, really.

                          The hole in the atmosphere is over Antartica and that is why the glaciers are not melting there but the whole will close in 40 to 50 years. Please read the link in #26.3.

                          • 2 votes
                          #26.5 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:09 PM EDT
                          kissmyarsenal

                          Please, the assertions as fact that the Earth is getting a fever because of man's activities are simply statements posted in writing by self-proclaimed experts who have a political agenda needing support, and who have just enough knowledge of the enviornment to be dangerous. The global warming alarmists are dangerous and many outright malicious. The highly publicized claims of Global Warming caused by Man are political tools of the left, nothing more, nothing more important.

                          If you support rationing and taxing energy to save the Earth, you should consider investing your entire nest egg with Bernie Madoff, the brilliant investment guru, who was able to predict the best performing stocks and other investment vehicles for years, before it is too late. Pay no attention to the allegations of fraud, he is being railroaded. I'll try to get his "cell" phone number for you and post it.

                          • 1 vote
                          #26.6 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:21 AM EDT
                          Anita Bail Out

                          If you support rationing and taxing energy to save the Earth, you should consider investing your entire nest egg with Bernie Madoff, the brilliant investment guru,

                          While were at it, shouldn't we consider outlawing all domestic pets and euthanizing them? I mean, really, think of the increase in the food supply if we started eating each other's dogs and cats. The CO2 and methane emissions alone will probably save the planet! We can plant the animals in the ground to fertilize the new trees! Why should that farmer have all those cows in the field farting all their methane into OUR atomosphere? What about the VEGANS???

                          • 1 vote
                          #26.7 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:56 AM EDT
                          Bob Nelson.

                          self-proclaimed experts

                          No. Scientific papers (in reputable journals) are peer-controlled. Experts are not self-proclaimed. They are proclaimed by their fellows.

                          You, however, are a self-proclaimed expert... You expect to convince people on the strength of your personal opinion, unsupported by data. Or logic.

                          People who live in glass houses...

                          • 2 votes
                          #26.8 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:43 AM EDT
                          Bob Nelson.

                          Anita,

                          You do realize, I hope, that while you may amuse the wackos with your dogs and cats... any ordinary person is going to think, "Wow is she ever a weird one!"

                            #26.9 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:47 AM EDT
                            kissmyarsenal

                            No. Scientific papers (in reputable journals) are peer-controlled. Experts are not self-proclaimed. They are proclaimed by their fellows.

                            The KKK giving humanitarianism awards to its members would be peer reviewed, too, Bob. I would likely find the validity of such awards suspect.

                            Climate scientists have a vested interest in creating and stirring controversy. How much government funding do you think they'd get if the all said "nothing going on here with the climate"? Proclaiming global climate stability would be percieved as boring and undeserving of government financial support. We've had the global cooling scam, we're near the end of the global warming scam, so what's next? Global drought, global flooding, global fog, rain, wind? Tectonic plate collisions? Orbital wobble? Surely something is on the drawing board.

                            How about full disclosure each and every time a climate scientist is referenced, who butters his/her bread (where do they get funding, say like the government), what is their party affiliation, and where is there money invested. When I know they have nothing to gain from their reseach, then there is a chance I'll listen. In the meantime, the data is irrefutable inconclusive at best and is definitely not deserving of highly intrusive and expensive government policies and taxation as a ploy to stem alleged man-made detrimental climate changes. There is a 1000 fold higher risk our lives will be adversely affected by man made nuclear weapon related focal warming than CO2 mediated global warming and our great Democrat party doesn't give a ship about imminent proven threats that don't make them money or expand their control over the American people.

                            • 2 votes
                            #26.10 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:40 PM EDT
                            Bob Nelson.

                            The KKK giving humanitarianism awards to its members would be peer reviewed, too

                            Basically, you will accept expertise that agrees with you and reject expertise that disagrees with you.

                            Add a dash of conspiracy theory. A sprig of graft. and...

                            Shazaaam!! Global warming is disproved!

                            ...

                            There is a 1000 fold higher risk our lives will be adversely affected by man made nuclear weapon related focal warming than CO2 mediated global warming

                            Aren't you embarassed by such tripe?

                            ... ... no, probably not...

                            • 1 vote
                            #26.11 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:51 PM EDT
                            Perrie

                            Bob you are missing something here.

                            They say that liberals fear monger about global warming yet saying that we will die by nuclear weapons isn't fear mongering?

                            Me thinks the logic is lacking.

                            How about we go with this. They are both probable, and both should be avoided.

                            • 2 votes
                            #26.12 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:58 PM EDT
                            kissmyarsenal

                            You wouldn't give a crap about global warming if the solution was to downsize government, expand freedom, cut taxation, and let free markets reign. You know it is a concept intended only to facilitate your political agenda, end of story. If I have any embarrassment, it is at having fellow Americans hell-bent on using our government for their malicious activities.

                            I will agree with whoever can prove their allegations. Man made global warming has weak evidence, no stronger than man-made global cooling or man-made global stability. We should free more carbon, grow and expand life.

                            They say that liberals fear monger about global warming yet saying that we will die by nuclear weapons isn't fear mongering?

                            So you two are nuclear weapons deniers? There is no evidence nuclear weapons exist or are a risk to man's health or world health? Good grief. Which has more evidence of threat to man?

                            • 2 votes
                            #26.13 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:00 PM EDT
                            Perrie

                            Kiss,

                            Here is the joke. I have no political agenda.....I am a moderate independent. I will tell you what I told Bob on an article where I disagreed with him......look into a persons homepage and that will tell you about them, before you make accusations.

                            I give a crap about global warming because it affects my home! I have no problem with downsizing certain aspects of my government, expanding freedom (even thought we are one of the freest nations in the world), ahhh free markets....some times they work, other times not, and taxes......we have the lowest taxes in the free world. I am for cutting pork, getting rid of lobbies, cutting back on campaign spending...As for having fellow Americans being hell bent on using government for malicious activities.....gee, that's not a fear tactic. Frankly, I find the fact that you just go on with the right agenda lock, stock and barrel, just as scary. Think for your self and judge each issue on it's merits. That is what we independent like to do. By the way, we love our country as much as you.

                            We should free more carbon, grow and expand life.

                            That's logical. Because nothing says healthy air like more CO2

                            So you two are nuclear weapons deniers?

                            Dear god! Where did I say that? I said that both nuclear weapons and global warming are real possibilities. You just want to deny the latter. Well guess what, both are a one time deal. You screw up and there is no second chance. Your so sure that there is no global warming....How, I do not know?

                              #26.14 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT
                              kissmyarsenal

                              Where to start?

                              Just as you love your country as much as I love mine, I love my Earth and my climate as much as you do yours.

                              Carbon dioxide has been many-fold higher at times in the past and life is still here and thriving, so I'm just not alarmed at the minuscule changes being played up as lethal. And the rise is not proven due to man's activities.

                              I know independents like to take pride in their status as a declared thinker, always with nuanced thinking too complicated and sophisticated to be boxed in by a party affiliation. What I see from independents is they are unprincipled and incapable of recognizing their limitations in assessing issues and are really just last minute decision makers due to undecidedness.

                              Man made global warming allegations are purely political, sorry. You've been duped. When the left picked it up and gained traction in implementing their Marxist agenda portraying horror stories of climate change, they ran with it. Anyone, anyone, considering Al Gore as a scientist free of leftist bias needs or has had a frontal lobotomy. I have enough science background to look at the evidence offered and judge its validity. It doesn't matter how many leftists believe in man-made global warming. It is not an issue we can vote into or out of existence. The data about the man-made nature of climate change is where the bogus begins. Climate does change, no doubt, from changes in the Sun and Earth, but unrelated to man's activities or existence. And the fact that every proposed solution happens to be a long desired leftist agenda item should raise the suspicions of even the lay independents still searching for the correct answer.

                              Because nothing says healthy air like more CO2

                              Maybe we should ban exhalation in closed quarters or with 15 feet of building entrances. And heaven forbid you pull your covers over your head and raise your environment CO2 100 fold. Why aren't you worried about how much nitrogen and oxygen are in your atmosphere. The O2 is declining if the CO2 is rising, correct?

                              CO2 is about as harmful as water vapor. Give it up. Man made global warming is a farce. It is reminescent of getting past the flat Earth and the Sun revolving around the Earth science theories.

                              • 3 votes
                              #26.15 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:34 PM EDT
                              Perrie

                              No where do I start, or should I start....because is it worth it?????? One last try

                              Carbon dioxide has been many-fold higher at times in the past and life is still here and thriving, so I'm just not alarmed at the minuscule changes being played up as lethal. And the rise is not proven due to man's activities.

                              Although it's true, that CO2 has had highs and lows through the earths history....it's never been rising like this.

                              http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/warnings/stories/

                              Yep, that's a NOVA sight, explaining how ice cores show the CO2 levels along with other chemical that the earth has been exposed to over thousands of years. You know NOVA, that communist scientific community bent on stealing your money.

                              What I see from independents is they are unprincipled and incapable of recognizing their limitations in assessing issues and are really just last minute decision makers due to undecidedness.

                              See normally, I am a very nice person. But when I read such an arrogant statement, I have to sit back an laugh. Independents make up almost 60% of the electorate, and if you think they chose Obama on a whim, think again. Now personally, I didn't....but you are a representative of the right, your party is doomed.

                              Man made global warming allegations are purely political, sorry. You've been duped. When the left picked it up and gained traction in implementing their Marxist agenda portraying horror stories of climate change, they ran with it.

                              I shouldn't answer this because it is not only arrogant it's insulting. As a science teacher, I have spent a lot of time reading up on global warming and I am aware of the limitations to which we can determine the effects of global warming, but for you to flatly deny it and then say it's a Marxist plot...well that is just funny. I am glad you were not old enough to decide whether to get rid of man made fluorocarbons, otherwise we would have no ozone layer either.

                              And heaven forbid you pull your covers over your head and raise your environment CO2 100 fold

                              And this is my final answer to you since you obviously don't know anything about chemistry. Despite that, I will answer this beautie....

                              CO2 is not dangerous by its self. CO2 without oxygen, you die (remember, that is why you breath...it's to get rid of the CO2. CO2 in an abundance in the air, creates a blanket that magnifies the suns rays, hence green house effect. CO2 is managed by plants, mostly trees, which use it in the process of photosysntesis and give us oxygen in return. But we are cutting down rain forests at record speed, which are the major consumers of CO2, so the balance is gone.

                              Please do not respond to this post. it is pointless. But I wil save your comments for my next article for independents. That one is priceless.

                                #26.16 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:16 PM EDT
                                DoctorLogic

                                We're missing something of importance here...just two years ago it was talked about how global warming was no longer a theory and the only real debates were about the level and speed of warming that is occurring.

                                Now, we have a President that wants to address the issue through legislation and all of a sudden we have to have the debate about global warming's validity? A few "scientists" go public saying that they believe any warming occurring is part of the natural process and has nothing to do with us and what we're doing to the environment (no matter how much logic that defies).

                                Gee, I wonder how much those "scientists" were paid by the oil companies to render their "scientific decisions"? (Two can play the "conspiracy theory" game)

                                • 1 vote
                                #26.17 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:49 PM EDT
                                Perrie

                                Dr. Logic,

                                Don't try to use your brain here. You have slipped down the rabbit hole, and nothing is as it is in real life.

                                I fold to the queen of hearts. You can only have a dialog if there are people interested in listening.

                                  #26.18 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:03 PM EDT
                                  kissmyarsenal

                                  Let me help you guys out.

                                  The rain forest CO2 sequestration is a fallacy unless the vegetation is buried. Decaying vegetation returns the carbon to the atmosphere. Most of the rain forest vegetation decays.

                                  The ocean absorbs massive amounts of CO2, where is can do several things, but it eventually ends up in mineral solids that sink and become sediment. CO2 in the ocean is a source of ocean life. CO2 leaves the oceans without going back in the atmoshpere.

                                  To get a substantial change in solar energy retention, the CO2 would have to rise many-fold, well beyond that we've seen recently.

                                  Since CO2 was higher in the past, before man was around, what the heck are you doing trying to blame it on us now?

                                  Yes, PBS and NOVA are agenda driven organizations.

                                  Please do not respond to this post. it is pointless. But I wil save your comments for my next article for independents. That one is priceless.

                                  I have every confidence your article is awaited with great anticipation in your ranks. Have you been able to decide on a title yet, or is the publishing date still out a ways, so you can keep thinking on it?

                                    #26.19 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:36 PM EDT
                                    Bob Nelson.

                                    Perrie,

                                    You have my admiration for your tenacity. Then again... there was Don Quixote...

                                    As Krugman recently described:

                                    people who show no sign of being interested in the truth. They don’t like the political and policy implications of climate change, so they’ve decided not to believe in it — and they’ll grab any argument, no matter how disreputable, that feeds their denial.

                                    Bon courage!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #26.20 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:49 AM EDT
                                    kissmyarsenal

                                    Climate change liberals cling to their delusions and internet propaganda feeds out of antipathy to others.

                                    The man-made climate change deniers are truth acceptors. Man-made climate change alarmists are simply Marxist activists using fear and malicious misrepresentation for bilking the public, perpetrating a scam, making fools of America. Most Democrats are just plain dumb, so getting science news from Democrats is like having your kindergarten design the next Space Shuttle.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #26.21 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:37 AM EDT
                                    Perrie

                                    Bob,

                                    All I can say is how unlikely a twosome we are here. At least you know that I was for real when we had out debate on the Big Hate. I just call 'em as I seem 'em. Hence. being an independent moderate.

                                    I do believe I am doing battle with windmills here!

                                    But hey, what can I say....I can help myself when I see something that I believe to be wrong.

                                    I dropped it with you, because I was getting the impression that you thought I was endorsing the usage...that was not my intent.

                                    Here....it's just madness. I hope they don't live anywhere coastal or they my find their home under water. gargle, gargle, gargle.... But I live on this planet too, and I'll be damned if I have to leave a destroyed planet, because they love their wallets more. But at last, who am I talking to here, other than you....by the way...they tell me your a marxist...is that true? Us right wing moles need to know, LOL!

                                    c'est la vie

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #26.22 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:33 PM EDT
                                    Bob Nelson.

                                    Perrie,

                                    Carloz recently posted about Louisiana losing 10% of its land by the end of the century. That sent me off doing a bit of research. One half of Bangladesh has an elevation of less than... one meter. Three feet. There are 161 million people in Bangladesh.

                                    If even the least pessimistic scenarios prove to be true, people are going to die by millions.

                                    ... and here on NV, ostriches strut...

                                      #26.23 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:51 PM EDT
                                      kissmyarsenal

                                      Yep, those Bangladeshans will wake up one morning drowned. No warning, no time to move, just millions drowned, overnight, from global warming caused by man, unless we listen to Al Gore. It will be our faults. We should start being sad now.

                                      Here's some more news for ignorant leftists: The ocean will rise from sedimentation and volcanic activity -- deal with it. And the land is going to erode into the ocean -- deal with it.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #26.24 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:07 PM EDT
                                      Bob Nelson.

                                      They are Bangladeshis.

                                      Thank you for proving my point.

                                        #26.25 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT
                                        Perrie

                                        ... and here on NV, ostriches strut...

                                        Nice analogy.

                                        A little birdie told me that I was called me an ignorant leftist.

                                        Now I know you are a liberal....but what am I? Oh that's right, an indecisive Independent, unable to make up my mind....strange...I think I did a good job here of knowing my mind.

                                        So nice how they bundle people together to fit their agenda. It just makes it easier for them to think of us as a mass to despise, rather than people from different parts of the spectrum coming to the same logical conclusion. That would be to complicated a process for them.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #26.26 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:17 PM EDT
                                        Bob Nelson.

                                        I don't care much for the "liberal" label, probably because that word has a radically different meaning in French politics. On my page, I describe myself as a "French-American double-national bleeding-heart leftist".

                                        In my mind, the "left" stands for all people. The economy serves the people.

                                        In my mind, the "right" stands for the rich. People serve the economy... and ultimately serve the rich.

                                        I believe that fundamental notions are always clear and simple.

                                          #26.27 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:32 PM EDT
                                          Anita Bail Out

                                          In my mind, the "right" stands for the rich. People serve the economy... and ultimately serve the rich. I believe that fundamental notions are always clear and simple.

                                          Where is your evidence that the rich are on the right?? That isn't clear and simple, that is just garbage. It is also a proven fact that conservatives give more of their income to charity. Republicans also volunteer more. This, in my mind IS clear and simple. The democrats are lazy and love to spend others people's money. In fact, it was the democrats pushing more leniency for bankruptcy since they are the ones who are not fiscally responsble.

                                          http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm

                                          http://assets.aarp.org/rgcenter/general/moretogive_3.pdf

                                          All you have to do is look at a Rasmussen. Obama's approval ratings are slipping big time, and the majority of American trusts their own judgment more than his. The democrats are JEALOUS, WHINY, STINGY, LAZY and GREEDY and want to get their hands on as MUCH OF OTHER PEOPLES MONEY as they can. They don't care if they burn it in a leaf pile, they are so angry -- they want to bring people down to their lowest common denominator and just don't want anybody else to have it.

                                          http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/weekly_updates/what_they_told_us_reviewing_last_week_s_key_polls

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #26.28 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:04 PM EDT
                                          steviray

                                          And I thought Ididn't like a lib.

                                            #26.29 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
                                            Perrie

                                            Bob,

                                            I have a friend who calls himself a bleeding heart liberal, but I have never heard of a bleeding heart leftist in this country. I don't use that term because it kind of goes along with extream conservatives calling you a pinko or a commie, or a marxist, which they like to call democrats too.

                                            Ahhhh...now I get why you were so offended our conversation! I'm thinking liberal...but you think leftist. I will not disclose that phrase here. I am not fond of the company we are keeping right now. I won't give them the satisfaction.

                                              #26.30 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:28 PM EDT
                                              kissmyarsenal

                                              They are Bangladeshis.

                                              Then why are they Backyardigans instead of Backyardigis?

                                              Thank you for proving my point.

                                              You had a point? Point me to the seed you had a point on. I missed it.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #26.31 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:57 PM EDT
                                              Bob Nelson.

                                              Anita (#26.28),

                                              Since when does one prove a belief?

                                                #26.32 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:09 AM EDT
                                                Anita Bail Out

                                                Since when does one prove a belief?

                                                Sorry Bob, you lost me on that one. Can you clarify the question?

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #26.33 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:01 AM EDT
                                                Bob Nelson.

                                                Anita,

                                                My #26.27 was a credo. I was expressing what I believe. Or, if you prefer, I was giving my personal distinction between "left" and "right", as I perceive them. Since those are personal beliefs I feel no need to "prove" them. I would be quite happy to "discuss" them, though.

                                                You asked, more than a bit peremptorily, "Where is your evidence that the rich are on the right??"

                                                Which, in fact, I had not said at all....

                                                If you want to to discuss a subject with me, please try to start by reading what I actually wrote. There were only four sentences, after all...

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #26.34 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:49 AM EDT
                                                Perrie

                                                If you want to to discuss a subject with me, please try to start by reading what I actually wrote. There were only four sentences, after all..

                                                LOL!

                                                  #26.35 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:53 AM EDT
                                                  Anita Bail Out

                                                  Oh, Bobby.... This is what you WROTE...

                                                  In my mind, the "right" stands for the rich.

                                                  and this was my question

                                                  Where is your evidence that the rich are on the right??

                                                  I also provided some links in 26.28 which you chose to completely ignore. So maybe YOU need to take your own advice...

                                                  If you want to to discuss a subject with me, please try to start by reading what I actually wrote.

                                                  Do you have any input (try to resist being patronizing here... I know its difficult) to my 26.28 post?

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #26.36 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:54 AM EDT
                                                  Meloney

                                                  read it again...

                                                  'the "right" stands for the rich' is not the same as 'the rich are on the right'

                                                    #26.37 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 9:48 AM EDT
                                                    Bob Nelson.

                                                    Thank you, melonie!

                                                    ... I was beginning to wonder if a simple phrase of six words, none longer than a single syllable, was too much...

                                                      #26.38 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 12:56 PM EDT
                                                      Perrie

                                                      I'm so confused right now. Bob....are you right, about being right, or are you right....because I thought you were left, right?

                                                        #26.39 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
                                                        Bob Nelson.

                                                        You've left me right speechless!

                                                          #26.40 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 1:43 PM EDT
                                                          Perrie

                                                          Heeeeeheeeee!

                                                            #26.41 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 2:08 PM EDT
                                                            kissmyarsenal

                                                            You've left me right speechless!

                                                            It would be just awful if it was permanent.

                                                              #26.42 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
                                                              Bob Nelson.

                                                              Humor, kma?????

                                                              Careful! You might seem human....

                                                              ;-)

                                                                #26.43 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 2:15 PM EDT
                                                                Reply
                                                                Justaguy-1173567

                                                                Coal, which today accounts for half the electricity produced, would continue as a major energy source, though a less polluting one, energy experts forecast. That would mean capturing the carbon released when coal is burned.

                                                                The cleaner energy economy also put nuclear energy front and center. Does the U.S. build new power plants? If so, where, and where does all the waste go? Nuclear energy makes up about one-fifth of the nation's electricity today.

                                                                I am not a mathematics major, but it seems to me the author has calculated his data incorrectly. If the government really wants to make jobs, and limit our usage of terrible energy sources, then drumroll please................. invest in solar power(free energy other than materials- hint hint production jobs) and maybe even wind power. I am not a rocket scientist and this makes more sense than taxing again.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                Reply#27 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:14 PM EDT
                                                                margoharris

                                                                The problem is regional, the Representatives from the coal regions are protecting their political lives and coal is in abundant supply. The people in these areas have no other industry. The cap and trade system will provide money for investment in alternate technologies. Obama budget is investing billions in alternate energy sources.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #27.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:23 PM EDT
                                                                Justaguy-1173567

                                                                That is a reasonable answer margo and I respect it but, are there lobbyist behind this agenda?

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #27.2 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:26 PM EDT
                                                                margoharris

                                                                Which agenda do you mean? Alternative energy? Climate change? Carbon capture? Coal Mining?

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #27.3 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:54 PM EDT
                                                                Justaguy-1173567

                                                                There are many agendas I suppose but, the ones I am addressing are in reference to 27.1. The coal miners want jobs so their people are pushing the government to help save their agenda and jobs. By the way, what money will be provided from the cap and trade system? More taxes margo and this doesn't sit well with those whom have lost their jobs, are on fixed incomes or have had their incomes reduced due to work shortages.

                                                                Obama budget is investing billions in alternate energy sources.

                                                                Rather than investing, it should read printing.

                                                                I agree we need to be better people that are more efficient energy users. Are all of the bulbs in your house CFL's? Do you recycle? Do you donate your clothes? These are the things we can do to make a difference. More taxes is not going to fix the "energy crisis". Who decided it is a crisis? Al Gore?

                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                #27.4 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:24 PM EDT
                                                                margoharris

                                                                Okay, so you are a Al Gore hater, fine. That doesn't change the facts I'm afraid.

                                                                Actually my husband lost his job in late 2007, he was 60 years old and could not find a job. He applied for many jobs in his field, he worked in high tech sales in Silicon Valley. We used most of our life savings trying to save our home of 14 years but we ended up losing it all.

                                                                His father 88 got cancer and we came to Florida to help his mother take care of him. He died a few months later and his mother followed 6 months after that. We inherited along with his sister their house. It is the only reason we are not homeless. He did get a "job" in his field here for a fraction of what he was making, but at the 3 month mark, when we were supposed to get health insurance, the small company he worked for said that because of the economy they couldn't provide it and couldn't pay the base salary and that he had to go on commission only. I had a small business but that went under too. He applied for social security in December 6 months before turning 62. So we will start to get it in July. So that's it.

                                                                We are from California, have been recycling for years and do all we can to be green. Maybe you should do some research in climate change and global warming. We are printing money and borrowing from China because the past 8 years of 2 wars, tax cuts for the rich and doubling the national debt have left us in a terrible place. Deregulation, which I know was bought and paid for by both parties have caused economic collapse. Who decides now if we have a crisis? I believe in science and not propaganda from a discredited party.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                #27.5 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:53 PM EDT
                                                                redsfan

                                                                I believe in science and not propaganda from a discredited party.

                                                                Thank you!

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #27.6 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:11 PM EDT
                                                                Indepvoter

                                                                Margo,

                                                                I am sorry to hear about the tough circumstances you are in. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and it sounds like a really rough road for you and your husband.

                                                                Regarding your post: there are scientist on both sides of the Climate Change debate. please see the article below, published by.... Scientists

                                                                Is Global Warming Part of Earth's Natural Cycle: MIT Team Says "Yes" -A Galaxy Insight

                                                                http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/06/is-global-warming-part-of-earths-natural-cycle-mit-team-says-yes.html

                                                                http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming030207.htm

                                                                At first this new science was dismissed, but now several different scientist who used to push "global warming" now agree.. That is why they had to change the name of the problem from global warming to climate change...

                                                                Let's assume everything you say about the climate change is true... How can they pass a bill that they haven't even read.

                                                                The bill should not be passed before they actually read all of it... Do you agree with at least that?

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                #27.7 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:19 PM EDT
                                                                Justaguy-1173567

                                                                Another perspective.

                                                                  #27.8 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:25 PM EDT
                                                                  Justaguy-1173567

                                                                  Unfortunately my link never showed up.

                                                                    #27.9 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:36 AM EDT
                                                                    fifesrhappy

                                                                    Whats worse is Lollapelosi forcing the vote before anyone could read it, that in itself should be unconstitutional.

                                                                    Its not about the climate, never has been, Obama has already said he needs this to pass to pay for healthcare, so essentially we're being levied a tax that doesn't represent what its intended purpose and introduction is about............another constitutional violation, taxation without representation by not allowing constituents representatives to read the bill, and now a tax that will not prevent CO2 emissions, just merely pay a commodity trader and healthcare something completely differant than the intended purpose of the bill.

                                                                    I'm betting their next idiotic "save the world" idea wil be called "just because".I'm waiting anyday for a "just because" amendment to the constitution.

                                                                    SOmeone postd the bill mandates they now want all home sales to be energy audited, and the rating of the home will determine the market price. Yeah why not trash the housing recovery even further?

                                                                    They want federal zoning officers 3 minimum in every town no matter how small, for what purposes? I guess local ones aren't good enough, federal ones will make sure the the new houses meet the new 30% increase energy efficiency. Nope no bigger gubment here, and to think these mandates are coming from the "do as I say not as I do crowd"

                                                                    These CO2 emitting clowns ALL need to go next election.

                                                                    • 5 votes
                                                                    #27.10 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:40 AM EDT
                                                                    Justaguy-1173567

                                                                    Margo,

                                                                    I am sorry for the difficult times you have had in the last couple of years, it seems that there are many people going through some very difficult times. I am more concerned than afraid mostly because I have a family and small children. Global warming, if it is in fact true, is major issue that should be addressed. I just don't agree with right now. Cap and Trade is another way to tax the citizens of the United States and conveniently makes it look like we aren't being taxed (because it isn't coming out of our paycheck). Also, with all of the money that the Obama administration is spending, they didn't even offer a COLA for 2010. This is the first time in history that this has happened. So, factor in higher energy bills, and no cost of living increase and there you have a perfect example as to why I don't like cap and trade. My parents are on SSI and I hope that I don't have to help them support themselves as a result of "change". Once again, my best wishes for you in this difficult time.

                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                    #27.11 - Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:56 PM EDT
                                                                    Anita Bail Out

                                                                    We are printing money and borrowing from China because the past 8 years of 2 wars, tax cuts for the rich and doubling the national debt have left us in a terrible place.

                                                                    This is such a simplistic view. The so-called "rich" pay ALL the taxes. We are broke because we have been, and continue, to spend more money than we have. You don't like doubling the national debt? Well, Obama is that on STERIOIDS. The answer is not MORE TAXES, the answer is to get together on this an require accountability from our CORRUPT GOVERNMENT.

                                                                    How are you going to feel when all the rich politicians get richer when they invest in cap and trade derivatives?

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #27.12 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:05 AM EDT
                                                                    Perrie

                                                                    We are broke because we spent billion of dollars on a war with Iraq, under the bush administration. We were debt free under Clinton...or did you forget that. I can't. I live in NY and we have a ticker that counts your personal count of the National Debt you are carrying. It was 0 under Clintion....and the clock had no more numbers left under Bush.

                                                                    Please get real! You talk about government corruption, how about our Chaney's sweet deal with Halloburton? That war made him a very rich man....and one of the most corrupt politicians since.....I won't even say Nixon. Nixon actually thought he was helping this country with his subversive actions. Chaney is just corrupt and money hungry.

                                                                    Ick.....I can't waste my breath anymore.

                                                                      #27.13 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 9:00 AM EDT
                                                                      Anita Bail Out

                                                                      Well if you are so incensed with Chaney's (sic) sweet deal with Halloburton (sic) then you are going to be REALLY pissed off when Al Gore and the rest of his political cronies make a fortune off Cap and Trade :) right? And Ick right back atcha.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #27.14 - Wed Jul 1, 2009 4:58 PM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      Traps

                                                                      Just another way to waste our money and control the way we live. Unless this is passed on a global level countries like China, India, Brazil will still have the manufacturing advantage.

                                                                      Companies will pass on the costs to all tax payers not just the rich.

                                                                      Plus the big companies have a new toy to trade, not just gold and oil anymore we can trade pollution and make something that isn't worth crap turn millionaires into billionaires.

                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                      Reply#28 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:46 PM EDT
                                                                      margoharris

                                                                      We have to lead on this. Should we let other countries get the advantage on us? Alternative energy is the only answer. Other countries are looking to America to develop this technology, we are already 8 years behind. Should we wait for China to do it and have to get it from them?

                                                                      Cap and trade is a conservative solution, you all should be happy about it, I think there should be a carbon tax.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #28.1 - Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:07 PM EDT
                                                                      katlin

                                                                      Other countries are looking to America to develop this technology

                                                                      sure we'll develop it , sacrifice for it [because of higher utility bills] and eat trees, and the air will be just as bad, global warming will be deemed because of the sun, and then we will give it away to the other countries for frreee cause their air is our air and americans will get s**t again....maybe obama should start to work on the apology speech now....

                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                      #28.2 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:48 AM EDT
                                                                      margoharris

                                                                      So you are a expert, scientist or do you have a crystal ball? What if you and your ilk are wrong? Maybe listening to morons will cause death, famine, destruction of the Earth...maybe people like you should start apologising now for your stupidity?

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #28.3 - Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:37 PM EDT
                                                                      Traps

                                                                      What advantage do you speak of Margo? Alternative energy costs way more, and none of the technologies will work without coal or nuclear to back them up.

                                                                      Also, If this is really a conservitive solution the libs should be scared to death then? I see nothing but support...

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #28.4 - Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:00 AM EDT
                                                                      Reply
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