Obama to tell Putin: Time to move past Cold War

Faith? Separation of church and state please.

I am "deeply concerned" that he cares more about his words coming out beautifully with birds singing, music playing, than what he really is saying (the mean of his words). I am "deeply concerned" he found yet another way to insist he is our savior. The real numbers don't add up.

See I can try and tell my boss I am the best damn thing that ever happened to this company, but if I just talk all day long about how great of an employee I am, where is the out-put of energy to show I am as great as I say I am, and that I am what this company needs?

I don't think my boss would overlook the fact that I have no clue what the company does or how I will get the job done.

Faith? Separation of church and state please.

Faith in Obama is a separation of sanity and state.

It's also a separation of money and wallet

Pompus Obama is going to Russia to speak with Putin 1st , instead of the new President Medvedev, it's like telling the new President he's worthless.

And shows Obama is clueless.

The Russian government neither respects nor fears the U.S. President. At the same moment, U.S. has lost the faith of allies, Middle East, and Israel. Asia simply disregards him.

This all adds up to one very big problem for U.S. International issues. Zero credibility.

Why didn't you elect Michael Jackson. You would be no worse off, and the King of Pop might still be alive.

And Obama, the democrats, republicans, corporate parties, including the corrupt corporate news, with their corporate, class ideologies, and AP too, has both feet in the corruption, class ideology, and censorship of policies, real reforms, allowing corporate lobbies to buy Congress or like the Washington Post, already corrupt, corporate imperial, Zionist class toadie, putting up access for sale, for those with the most money:

For $25,000 You Can Talk to Washington Post Reporters and Editors (and Obama Staff) Pay More and They'll Write About Your Issue

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44142

and even the PUBLIC NPR RADIO, is corrupted by this corporate, imperial class ideology, corrupted as Zionist cheerleaders, torture apologists, for fascist foreign policies:

The Still-Growing NPR 'Torture' Controversy

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/02-4

Corporate, class despotism and corruption everywhere one looks...take a look:

WaPo All Access Fire Sale (video)

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44151

And for those who are clueless regarding the criminal corruption and class corruption of Obama, these links mean he will be seen as a Chamelion, betrayer, who used the public good will to continue Wall street crimes and Empire crimes:

Imperial Culture and Moral Absurdity in the Age of Obama: From Teheran and Bala Boluk to New York, Bagua, and Tegucigalpa http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/21841

Spinning the Honduran Coup Latin America Media Battle Continues http://counterpunch.org/kozloff07022009.html

and:

The failure of Obama's economic policies are tied to his loyalties to corporate elites, corporate class ideology above real social reform, hence the criminal bail outs, and corrupt elites advising Obama, how to rescue Wall street from prison:

How Goldman Sachs and Citi Run the Show The Wall Street White House

http://counterpunch.org/andrew07022009.html

excerpt:

"Robert Hormats, Vice Chairman of Goldman Sachs, is to be installed as Under Secretary of Economics, Business, and Agricultural Affairs. This comes as one more, probably unnecessary reminder of the total control exercised by Wall Street over the Obama administration's economic and financial policy. True, Hormats is "a talker rather than a decider" according to one former White House official, but he will find plenty of old friends used to making decisions, almost all of them uniformly disastrous for the U.S. and global economy."

ok, when I left my first comment, this was not the story.

But the biggest story on the failure of Obama, democrats, republicans, the Congress, all three branches, four if you include the corporate media, is their fascist, criminal appeasement, of the policies now under both Obama/Bush. With no real enforcement of criminal laws, RULE OF LAWS, fascist police state laws and generic corruption of laws can only mean the same historical mistake, the Social democrats, Weimar regime made, to Nazis, their class appeasement, criminal appeasement through all their class institutions, is now reproducing CORPORATE FASCISM, police state totalitarianism, the corrupt unity of Corporate despotism and State despotism TRIED IN THE NAZI TRIALS CALLED THE NUREMBERG PRINCIPLES:

Torturing the Rule of Law

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44150

excerpt:

"Sixty years ago, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson left Washington to pursue what he later called "the most important, enduring, and constructive work of [his] life": prosecuting international war crimes committed during WWII. Justice Jackson helped usher in a new international regime that promised to help deter human rights abuses.

Unfortunately, Jackson's achievements have proven less enduring than he hoped. Our nation continues to undermine international law by sweeping torture under the rug, with serious implications going forward.

The Nuremberg Trials established a timeless principle: individuals are criminally liable for violating fundamental human rights, even if their governments authorized those violations. Some laws, Nuremberg held, transcend those of any nation.

We have fallen a long way in so short a time. Rather than enforce international principles we once pioneered by prosecuting former officials who enabled torture, our nation today violates those principles with impunity. President Obama's focus on the future aims to transcend the political divisions deepened by his predecessors. But setting aside the past comes at a price."

And look at this.....Now Obama is using Cheney lies, propaganda to justify Empire and double standards. He is morphing into Dick Cheney:

US Uses False Taliban Aid Charge to Pressure Iran

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/07/02-12

"You have one discourse of officials in Afghanistan, who would support collaboration with Iran," Doronsoro said in an interview with IPS. "It's very clear that those people don't want a crisis with Iran and don't want to push Iran too far."

But those who want to put pressure on Iran to stop its enrichment programme, he said, "are acting as though they are building some kind of legal case against Iran."

The Bush administration initially claimed it had evidence of Iranian aid to the Taliban in 2007 that didn't exist, only to have it refuted by the U.S. command in Afghanistan.

In April and May 2007, NATO forces in Helmand province found mortars, C-4 explosives and electrical components believed to have been manufactured in Iran. Then Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns asserted that the United States had "irrefutable evidence" that those weapons were provided to the Taliban by the Qods Force of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.

When State Department spokesman Sean McCormack was questioned about the Burns statement on Jun. 13, 2007, McCormack admitted that the charge was an inference."

What is Obama doing going to talk to Putin?Is he going to offer him Georgia if Russia promises with a pinkie swear not to attack us or any one else. Most importantly is why does Obama spend all his road trips going and making out with our sworn enemies and bitc# slapping our allies?

To comment on the new story posted:

Why is he starting $h*t with Russia!!! OMG, what is he thinking.

Dude, you cant fix the problems here at home so you go around the world and make some old ones resurface....my God that sounds like how I act when Im PMS'in. (my poor bf)

Folks, what is happening in Latin America, will be the canary, that takes on the corrupt global corporate order and its criminal elites, who have deformed democracy, through fascist tyranny or corruption of all institutions. The MATRIX OF CLASS DESPOTISM, class tyranny and military fascism in South America is slowly being dismantled and now is dismantling in Central America, and threatens to expose the WESTERN WORLD OF CLASS HIERARCHIES, where the same Matrix of class despotism can be dismantled through an alliance of working and middle classes opposed to CORPORATE FASCISM, AND GLOBALIZED CAPTIALIST TYRANNY. THE OLIGARCHIES ARE UNRAVELING, without the servile, corrupt middle class professionals to feed its shock troops of fascism, or class ideology, and sees the writing on the wall.

Latin America is pursuing an anti class stratety against all oligarchies, all military juntas, that once were financed by American Empire and REAGANISM. The world is on the march to take on these corrupt and despotic elites, world wide and is showing how a CUSTOMS UNION, the ALBA, Latin America Union, can take on the colonialism of the IMF BANK, WORLD BANK and U.S. empire. HERE IS A VIDEO ON HOW THIS NEW SOCIAL IDEOLOGY IS THREATENING OUR OWN CORPORATE IMPERIAL ELITES, including Obama, the ultimate imperial and class toadie for WALL STREET AND EMPIRE:

Honduras Crisis Forces Obama to Focus on Latin America (video) CLICK HERE

EXCERPT:

"The Obama position is complicated by the history of US training of the Honduras armed forces, past involvement with shadowy death squads, and concern over Zelaya’s alliance with the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas. In the background are memories of US complicity in the attempted coup against Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez in 2002."

Everybody out there who thinks Putin gives a damn what Barack Obama thinks about the Cold War, raise your hand.

I thought so.

Can we talk about safety...

Our military is great. I just want everyone to know that I have faith in them.

But I feel very unsafe today vs. last July and every July since my birth (the day Carter was elected, lol)

And finally the imperial military, which so many people have faith in, and their crimes, the issue of Nato and Bush's imperial class alliances, that promoted Georgia's illegal criminal invasion, and world wide condemnation, except by the corporate media, so called Liberal media, which had to retract all the false facts later, is now following the same Bush imperial Empire and nuclear missiles around the former Warsaw states......provoking Russia and the world against our imperial Empire:

White House to Hold Firm on European Missile Shield: Nuclear Disarmament Be Damned

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44135

excerpt:

"....said McFaul. “We’re not going to reassure or give or trade anything with the Russians regarding NATO expansion or missile defense.”

He said Pres. Obama will talk “very frankly” with Medvedev about U.S. national security interests and “see if there are ways we can have Russia cooperate on those things.”

Pres. Obama has pledged to reset U.S. relations with Russia, but McFaul said there’d be no concessions on missile defense or NATO “in the name of reset.”

He said Mr. Obama will make the case that Russia can play a role in enhancing its own security with respect to missile defense.

At the same time, the U.S. and Russian leaders will be discussing new negotiations to further reduce the size of each nation’s strategic nuclear arsenals. Under The Moscow Treaty agreed to in 2002 by Presidents George W. Bush and Vladimir Putin, the two countries are committed to reduce the number of nuclear warheads in their arsenals to between 1,700 and 2,200 by the year 2012.

“It’s too early to talk about ....."

Sounds like the right wing imperial ideology of FASCISTS in Nazi Germany.

I listened to his speech too!!

HAAAATED ITTTT!

You said that like Doug Heffernan

King of Queens, eh? Love the show, love Arthur Spooner the best. Jerry Stiller is just as hysterical as he was when he played Frank Costanza on Seinfeld. He definitely brings the funny.

He's hilarious, and I think funnier as A. Spooner than F. Costanza. The whole cast is hilarious. Carrie Heffernan is a riot. KOQ has been vying with Seinfeld for the top spot on my all-time fave funny show list.

Obama can say whatever he wants, but it doesn't do much good in nobody is listening. Would be just as effective, and much cheaper if he would just send a couple of teleprompters pre loaded with the speech.

Putin is sitting in Russia laughing his ass off at newbie no experience naive Obama with his rhetoric. Putin has experience and has been around the block.. and here is Obama a green horn in the White House talking to Russia as if he knows better then Putin or more "wise". Thats like a rookie telling an all-star what to do. Obama is a clueless arrogant moron. Hes pissing off our allies... going to piss off Russia... while he appeases and wants to make friends with our enemies who don't give a flying frack about friendship with the USA. Obama needs to keep his mouth shut and get a reality check. That or he needs to fire his moron advisers. Either way he sounds like an idiot. The World isn't like the south side of Chicago Obama....

Eric, I wish you would lose the catch phrases that you love so dearly. The thing is, I mostly agree with what you write, but words like "imperial", "class", "appeasment" and "facist" make my eyes glaze over; makes you sound like Lenin.

Maybe I just need to be a little smarter.

The Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty was done in 1972. Bush withdrew from the ABM treaty in December 2001.

So in 28 years, nothing was accomplished?

We could if everyone stopped crying about pollution and actually allowed manufacturing, you know that process that makes things rather than just buying them!

here comes more campaigning. Just believe what I tell you and support my decisions. Basic empty rhetoric, but enough blind idiots are buying his @!$%#. Remember the black lady who said that with Obama she wouldn't have to pay her bills? Hey, how's that working for ya? Homeless and carless yet?

Putin will chew him up and spit him out. He is weak.

You're right, Bubba. Putin's gonna hand him his ass. Everyone knows how weak the president is. It's a shame really. Can you imagine a Putin/Obama smackdown...lol...who do you think would win that contest? The ex-KGB martial artist, or the skinny-ass metro sexual?

I'm going with the communist. To clarify which communist, I'm referring to Putin.

Yes, that distinction was nescessary. lol

Here, Here!!

I'll 2nd that.

And i'll flip you 3 the bird

I'll third canning the three and add a fourth.....Barney.

@ DaVoch;

And i'll flip you 3 the bird

What do you really mean.

Is it just tough to fit in and your telling us you need a friend.

No, i got plenty of friends greggy pooh, probably more than you since you directed your personal life hardships towards me. It's okay to vent your own pain and suffering onto others, especially when it's not face to face. It sort of makes you feel like you know me, but you don't. Just keep pretending that you have friends and it will all be ok in the end, loser.

Wow

Someone got their feeling hurt over Pesoli, Reid, and O...

Im human, can you stand up for me too?

@ roadlesstraveled;

Its that hand holding mentality by DaVoh.

This may be deleted, but, DaVoh must still be in 5th grade with that kind of response/responses.

This should explain it:

if you don't know me it's probably a good thing, cause i'm a very bad boy

He really needs friends. Any volunteers. He is new! I think alittle Delusional after re-reading that last comment. It made no sense.

Davoh,

i got plenty of friends greggy pooh,

"POOH" Do your so called friends vomit when you speak? I'll bet Barney pooh Frank is one of your buddies.

And i'll flip you 3 the bird

How about growing up first.

Is that all you can come up with, 'no friends, wah wah", You're the ones spending hours on the internet looking for arguments with people you don't even know by yourself I assume. Great Cumguzzling Greg wants to be my bud but the crusty stains on his lips disgusted me, it must be the other greg's leftover spooz from his lover ejaculating all over his face and then kissing his great pal greggy pooh. Roadlesstraveled, bend over for the greg's because it looks like you want them in you, bad. Most likely gonna get deleted and suspended for this, but since you all cant't take jokes, go take each others cocks and phuck awf

wah wah wah wah wah boo hoo

Davoh,

You forgot it's your mom and grandma honking on and slurping cum, I heard they don't know who your daddy was. What they do know is you came out of the wrong hole.

Adios Maricon

Ha ha, you fags sure do stick together, especially the jizz-swapping gregs. I know my family well cause half have died in the past two years. I don't need pity and i can take criticism and hate, but what i can't stand is that leftover nut hanging from your upper lip, bro, get that sh!t off, nasty

half have died in the past two years.

I heard Syphilis and AIDS..

Damn, sounds like you know from experience, probably spreading it through the cracks of your queer friends. Hasn't anyone ever told you not to feed the trolls, dumb cracka

Is that picture on your name your daughter?? She looks well treated.

No, it's what you would look like if we met you crybaby @!$%#. If you can't take commentary criticism, why would you pick on a guys daughter and family. Sounds like desperation and cheap shots from an ignorant redneck piece of trash

Well well , up to empty threats..

Evolution is your only chance to be part of the human race..

You're the hillbilly fag-got picking on an innocent girl out of spite, it's easy for you to poke fun at my baby daughter while sitting comfortably in front of your computer screen but obviously can't take the heat being thrown at you by me. Cheap shots have no credibility with me, you are weak and you only feel like you have power behind a keyboard, keep typing losernerd. High School hasn't changed much for you has it since you're still getting punked out in public

@ DaVoh;

Does your mom know you moved the computer to the basement?

He must be the one everyone picked on in school, now trying to get revenge for what he lacked being able to do in school.

Poor thing!

I doubt a turd like you ever had a kid, I'll bet you could offer a 100,000 to a hooker on a dead night and she would turn you down.

Well well , up to empty threats..

Nothing empty at all about that post, i was just letting you know what you would look like if we met, read closer next you illiterate inbred goat@!$%#er

Well, we all know turd-packers like yourself can only adopt, so good luck fudgecoating your penis and watching your partner greg-709692 lick it off

Does your mom know you moved the computer to the basement?

I own my house and it's paid for dumbass. I get paid to sit here and make fun of pricks like you guys. Have fun whacking off to your porn while i go screw the girls you couldn't get in high school

Is that what your daddy did to you, your a friggin pussy

You must do this all day because my fingers are tired and now my feelings are hurt, i gotta go cry like you two and get over myself, see ya beeyatchs

Hasta manana cabron,

You must know someone on the Vine for them not to suspend you for initiating attacks.

I wouldn't exactly say the finiancial markets are stabilizing... Dow down a little over 2.0% from yesterday as we speak. We need to face the fact that we're still not seeing a popped bubble. People think it's a balloon and that the air can be slowly let out. It just doesn't work that way, no matter how hard we try.

Yeah, I saw the DJIA this morning as well. I usually dont put too much emphasis on that, especially after bad news like the kind we got today. Investors, especially casual, short term ones are very fickle, and will panic and sell after a stiff breeze. At one point, we well were well under 7000, but even with today's decline we are well in the 8000s. I think we'll be ok. We've had bigger gains than losses lately.

I see where you're coming from, but I think this is a false bull market. Nothing has fundamentally changed and we're going to see a huge hammer fall on the housing market with the ARM resets later this year and the next. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Dow back in the 7000s before the end of the year.

Oh, no doubt the 4th quarter is going to be BAD. People have been coming to terms with that for months. But I think the important thing to remember is that things have to take their course, and that takes time. I dont see the financial markets taking as big a hit as other industries, and I certainly dont expect to see companies failing like they were before. Think of it this way: if we had done nothing, the 4th quater would be predicted to do even worse. I think we've stopped most of the bleeding, at least for a time, and the wound is definitely going to reopen some, but we're not going to bleed out this time.

The bad part is that people are going to have a FIT when that happens. If you think people are mad now, wait until December. They just wont understand that this was predicted, and that it could be a lot worse. Bloomberg should host a series of Econ 101 broadcasts to inform people about the upas and downs of the economy and how to think long-term, lol

Kym,

you may want to tune in to those econ101 broadcasts yourself. Pending sales of existing homes are up due mostly to short sales and foreclosures. Sale of new homes and starts of new homes are still falling, house prices are still falling. The financial sector has fallen over 20% since may 8 when the Fed issued the 'all is well' from the stress tests.

This is nothing more than a dead cat bounce and we are not even close to the bottom yet(that is only my opinion of course).

oldmustang42,

I have spoken personally with people in the housing industry and they all say they see improvement. It is small, but there nonetheless. There is no surprise that things in the financial markets have fallen lately, especially given that we predicted the 2nd and 4th quaters to be bad. I expect things to pick up for the 3rdQ and 1stQ 2010.

I still don't understand the argument saying that there is no improvement. There may not have been sweeping changes, but change is there. And the stress test was not to give the "all is well" signal. It was to make sure that when things get rougher (i.e. 4thQ), they will not fall apart.

Kym,

The stress tests were a sham. The results were delayed a week because the banks were arguing with the regulators over the results of the test.

Your logic eludes me. The same people you say predicted that Q2 and Q4 would be bad are the same people who never saw this coming in the first place. And what about Q3? If things are truly better in Q3 why would they not carry over into Q4?

Kym, if you can show me true improvement I will happily acknowledge it, but all of the adjustments that the economy has made so far would have happened with or without the stimulus. In fact without the stimulus it would have happened sooner. I don't see how you can tell me the stimulus is responsible for what ever 'green shoots' you think that you see, then turn around and say that most of the stimulus money hasn't been released yet. That just proves we didn't need the stimulus in the first place.

I cannot explain to you why things differ from quarter to quarter. They just do. You have good ones and bad ones, and you can predict which ones will be bad and which ones will be better. We knew Q1 and Q3 would be decent, and that Q2 and Q4 would be bad. Things may carry over from quarter to quarter, but in this case they probably will not. People knew that when the housing bubble burst we would be in trouble, but nobody could see how so many factors would combine to make the mess we find ourselves in. They are economists and financial analysts, not wizards.

A lot of progress can just be made by improving consumer confidence. The stock market is a great depiction of how consumers THINK a company is doing, not necessary how they really are doing. Case in point: BOA stock plummeted on rumors that the government was making Ken Lewis step down. It wasnt true, and BOA hadnt posted any losses yet, but people thought bad times were ahead and dropped the stock. Apple stock went down when people heard Steve Jobs was ill. There were no financial indicators that Apple was in trouble, but people THOUGHT it was (or would soon be), and sold their shares. On the other hand, if people BELIEVE that the economy is going to do better, it does, even if slightly.

And yes, most of the money has yet to be dispersed, but some of it has, and the some that has is being put to good use. The amount that is out there is multiplying already, growing as it exchanges hands, which is exactly what it is designed to do. Just imagine what is going to happen when more out it gets out there. Practicing contractionary fiscal policy during a recession is folly. The govt gets the economy going by spending money. Point blank.

Kym,

Spoken like a true Keynesian. For the record, Keynesian Economics is not fact as you keep insinuating, it is only a theory. It is not the only option available to us, there are other economic monetary theories we could(and should) be following.

Confidence is important, but it can not drive the sustained growth needed for a strong economy. You are correct in other posts when you say that we all played a part in this situation, so you should understand that a consumer driven economy is nothing but smoke and mirrors. Confidence helps the stock market, that is not the same thing as helping the economy. Spending money will not bring this economy back, people need to save money. This crisis was not caused by a lack of liquidity it was caused by to much debt. Corporations and individuals need to clean up their balance sheets and pay down their debt.

The economy needs to completely restructure itself and that can't happen until the Gov't stops meddling. Gov't spending to prop up failed companies such as AIG, Citi, GM, are only dragging this recession out longer than if they had just let them fail. The Gov't does not get the economy going by spending money, the Gov't doesn't have any money that that haven't borrowed or taken from someone else. A strong economy is the result of saving and investing capital into businesses. A strong economy with sustainable growth comes from private sector money(through savings and investment) along with private entrepreneurship, not Gov't spending.

The US gov't has employed Keynes' economic theory in the past, and with great success. Sure, its not fool proof, but what economic theory is? And we are currently using portions of his theory in our economic policy, such as the fiscal multiplier, and I see no signs of our giving it up. Many of our policies are built around this principle. So in effect, in our economy, it is fact.

Debt was certainly a large factor, but I personally believe that a lack of liquidity played a larger role. Companies had so-called assets that they could neither properly value nor sell. With proper liquidity and decent net working capital, debt can be overcome, and even can be used to one's benefit. With all of the money disappearing from the system, I dont think saving is the answer. If consumers in effect hoard their money, less enters the system, more companies fold, and more jobs are lost. Market restructuring and unhindered equilibrium sounds great on paper, but the govt has a responsibility to its citizens to try to stem the bleeding. If this recession has to be longer and less severe, I would rather that than shorter and catastrophic.

Just imagine how the American public would react if Obama said that we were just going to let the market take its course, millions more jobs would be lost, wage levels would resettle lower than before, and we had no plans of doing anything about it. Sure people may agree to it at first, but most people would have no idea what they were really asking for.

Kym,

Yes, our Gov't employs Keyne's theories, his are the only theories that allow them to recklessly spend money they don't have with no regard for the consequences. Do you know that after the crash in '29, the stock market didn't bottom out until over 3 years later in '33? More than 2 years after Roosevelt initiated his stimulus. I'm sure you also know that there was another recession in '37, and that we had still not fully recovered when we entered the WWII in '41. 12 years of stimulus and still not a complete recovery, if that's what you consider a success then I'm not sure we will agree on anything. The fact that our Gov't employs Keyne's theories to create policy does not make the theories themselves fact.

During the war many commodities were rationed and unavailable, obviously many men were over seas, savings rates were nearly 25%. Many economists expected a post war crash because it had always happened before. Instead that PRIVATE sector money fueled an historic economic revival that carried through the '50s and '60s.

The liquidity problems were caused by having to much debt. Banks that are now hoarding money are doing so because they still have to much debt and liability on their balance sheets. People do not hoard money, they put it in the bank. That makes it available to everyone who goes into the bank looking for loans, whether it's to buy a house, pay down bills, or start a business, that money goes back into the economy.

The Gov't does not have a responsibility to stem the bleeding, they are only making things worse. Japan's lost decade has turned in to nearly 20 years lost despite nearly constant 'stimulus' the entire time. Back companies should fail, good companies should be rewarded with the opportunity to buy up those distressed assets and use them to grow their own business. The current policy rewards bad decisions by keeping failed companies afloat and punishes companies that make good decisions.

The Gov't needs you to be a Keynesian Kym, they need you to think that it is ok, even necessary for them to spend money they don't have(and have no hope in hell of ever paying back). They need you to believe that the inflation that they cause(to keep you from saving your money), is a good thing. Savings and private investment is the only permanent solution to building a strong economy with sustainable growth. Pull for the savers Kym because very soon you may wish that you were one of them.

Well, I see that we fundamentally differ as to what economic theories we subscribe to, so I doubt we will be able to reach an accord. You believe the government should have backed out, and I believe we were right to step in. I guess we will just have to wait and see how this all plays out. I understant your position, trust me, I just do not agree.

Despite how things should have happened, what is done is done now, so we have no choice but to move forward from here and try to find our way out of this mess. That means everybody, no matter what theory they have personally adopted, has to step up and try to make things better. It was refreshing to exchange ideas with somebody who has knowledge of economics and how they work, instead of trying to explain things to the "Obama just hates this country and he wants us all to fail" crowd. You may disagree with his methods, but Im sure you acknowledge that he is subscribing to a pretty common theory and is trying to do what is best in his eyes.

Good luck out there, and try not to let the economy swallow you whole, :)

Kym,

There is no shame in agreeing to disagree, the world would be a very boring place if everyone always agreed with each other. Keyne's theories are widely accepted because his theories are the most widely taught(I think this is by design, but hey, that's my conspiracy side trying to get out :)). The truth is you have to actively seek out a school that doesn't teach Keynes or study on your own, I think that is doing a great injustice to today's youth.

I agree with you that the Gov't will continue down it's current policy path. I do not believe that they are trying to intentionally destroy the US, I simply believe that most politicians are arrogant. they believe that we(the general population) are idiots and that by voting for them we are telling them 'we are to stupid to take care of ourselves, we need you to think for us'. I did not vote for Obama and I disagree with most of his policies, but he is the President of the United States and he deserves the same respect as every other man who has held that position.

Thank you for the civil conversation, they are sometimes hard to come by on these threads. You seem to be intelligent and well reasoned, with an interest in what is going on around you. That puts you far ahead of most young people these days.

Good luck to you as well. I just take one day at a time.

For the record, Keynesian Economics is not fact as you keep insinuating, it is only a theory.

So is gravity.

It is not the only option available to us, there are other economic monetary theories we could(and should) be following.

Such as?

Azzix,

So the existence of gravity isn't fact? You can't be serious.

The other 2 most widely acknowledged theories are Monetary Theory, and Austrian Theory. IMO, we should be following the Austrian Theory.

So the existence of gravity isn't fact? You can't be serious.

Of course I'm not saying the existence of gravity isn't factual; I'm saying the reasons that explain how it works are a theory.

Just because we allow that something exists does not mean we can explain it.

The other 2 most widely acknowledged theories are Monetary Theory, and Austrian Theory. IMO, we should be following the Austrian Theory.

I'm not an economist. Please explain the advantages of these two systems I've never heard of over Keynesisn policy.

Azzix,

If you are truly interested in learning the differences between Keynesian, Monetary, and Austrian Theory give this article a read. It offers causes and possible solutions to Japan's lost decade(which is now going on 20 years), using all 3 theories much better than I could ever explain them.

The article is a little long, but I believe it to be a reasonably easy read(I am not an economist either). While I don't expect it to change your opinion it may give you more insight as to why some people oppose most of the Gov't economic policies.

I believe that the Gov't needs us to be Keynesians, as it is the only widely acknowledged economic theory that not only allows, it justifies the Gov't position to recklessly spend money that they do not have.

http://mises.org/story/1099

Un-employment!

But the big failures are taken care of. Thank God! "Groan"!

There's really not much anybody can do for the general population, at least no immediate fix. The benefits of injecting money at the top far outweighs those of injecting it into the bottom. the multiplier effect can manifest itself much faster from the top down than from the bottom up.

Right now, America needs to wait for the money to trickle down (and it is). Also, we need to pressure Congress to get busy distributing the stimulus money. No point in approving and allocating money and not dispersing it.

The money may trickle down way too late to help those that need it the most. Two million jobs LOST since he signed the bill. I'm sure all those people joining the unemployment ranks (almost 10% today) appreciate all of that stimulus money.

Congress will do a great job of distributing the stimulus money....it's called 'PORK'

Obamas not through yet, he's getting ready to throw a monkey wrench into the Oil & Energy companies..

It's called the Cap and Trade Tax which will increase the price of Oil and Electric in order to keep our Carbon Footprint low.

This tax will send more companies overseas where they can manufacture profitably.

What surprise will be next??????

Well, there is no other alternative. We had 3 choices: Pass the stimulus and let the money trickle down, pass the stimulus and give it to the people, or do nothing. Obviously doing nothing would get us nowhere fast. Giving it to the people would take even longer to speed up the economy. People would have money for a time, but what happens when the money is gone? It does very little to create jobs, and that is the source of sustainable income. The only remaining option was to let things take their natural course and wait for the money to get down to the people.

Theres really nothing we can do except to hang in there. And Congress has already started to pass out some of the money in real ways, like road repair and other infrastructure projects, which gives people jobs.

@ Great Greg;

Now you've made me feel even better!

I'm sorry, you call Obama's stimulus package the "NATURAL COURSE"? He's increased our debt, broken the economy, and has desgins on increasing our debt even more. How in the world is that the natural course? Everything that Obama has done, or says he will do, is broken, and he is not doing anything to fix it.

No, I called allowing money to trickle down the natural course. Government spending is a vital component of every economy, and we can use expansionary and contractionary fiscal policy to stimulate it or slow it down. To say that he has broken the economy is fundamentally wrong; the economy was broken LONG before he came into office. We are already beginning to get some profits back on the TARP money we loaned out. Now the financial markets can be more stable AND taxpayers get money back for their investment. Win and win to me.

The money is on its way down, whether you personally are aware of it or not. The funds are doing exactly what they were designed to do. You cannot dispute these facts. The housing market is beginning to show signs of improvement, and the manufacturing sector is beginning to receive more factory orders.

Better yet, what would you have suggested doing? Which of the 3 choices would you have preferred?

Giving it to the people would take even longer to speed up the economy. People would have money for a time, but what happens when the money is gone?

@Kym: I hope you can keep up the charade if or when you find yourself in the unemployment ranks, your bills are piling up with no income, and your home is about to be pulled out from under you.

Tony, what is the problem? How is that a charade? That is proven economic FACT. No getting around that. Things manifest themselves faster from top-bottom that from bottom-top. Thats just how it works.

Sounds like Kym espouses "trickle down economics." Interesting. We were told that the stimulus bill had to be passed now so that unemployement would not rise above 8%. The bill was passed because we had to do something immediately even though most of the funds wouldn't go out until the next election cycle. Not gobbling up $787bil and using it mainly for pork projects would have been following a "natural course."

Sounds like Kym espouses "trickle down economics." Interesting. We were told that the stimulus bill had to be passed now so that unemployement would not rise above 8%. The bill was passed because we had to do something immediately even though most of the funds wouldn't go out until the next election cycle. Not gobbling up $787bil and using it mainly for pork projects would have been following a "natural course."

Things manifest themselves faster from top-bottom that from bottom-top. Thats just how it works.

Kym in DC : The point I am trying to make is this; the entities that orchestrated this economic meltdown were later rewarded for their handiwork will billions of our tax $$$. Because of their actions, and greed, the rest of the country, individuals and business are suffering tremendously. You can rationalize what's not being done to help those who suddenly find themselves helpless victims however you like. But when you feel it personally, because it is happening to you or to someone close to you, you might have a different perspective.

The entities who orchestrated this meltdown are ALL paying for it. EVERYONE played a role in this, from the consumer to the investment banker. If we are really going to blame anyone, lets turn to everyone who bought a house in the last 10 years. Or anyone who sold a house. Or anyone who built a house. Any bank that gave a loan. Or any banker that bought packaged loans and marked them down as assets. There are more guilty parties here than you are acknowledging.

Houses were selling like hotcakes, and people were buying them up left and right. Sure, some people could afford to, but some people could not and did anyway, just as some bankers made smart loans and some bankers did not. When the bubble burst and the economy headed down, there werent enough liquid assets to keep us afloat, and the entire country got dragged down into the mess. A papercut soon turned into a massive gash, and nobody could stop the bleeding.

I didnt get a golden parachute, yet Im paying for that company to survive.

Yes, everyone is paying for it, unless your a tax cheat, but my share *costs* ME more than the share of the CEO at WellsFargo because I have nothing to give, yet the CEO has billions to give.

Meaning, that $10 goes a lot further for me than it does for someone making 7Million..or 100K

You didnt get a golden parachute because your job contract did not offer one. Nothing anybody can do about that, unfortunately.

And if you think we are all paying an equal share (monetarily) in this then you are wrong. Many of these top level managers have a good portion of their salary and holdings tied into stock options: when the stock prices fall, their money disappears. Granted, they have a lot more money to catch them but anything you have lost, speaking strictly dollar-figures, is a lot less than what they have lost. Like I said, we are all in this because we are all to blame. Some are suffering more than others, but thats the way the cookie crumbles. We got into this together, and we are going to have to get out of it together.

stock options are a choice and they choose to gamble, I don't feel one bit sorry if their money disappears, because wouldn't that mean the market thinks that company stinks...right...so job performance.

Like I said, we are all in this because we are all to blame. Some are suffering more than others, but thats the way the cookie crumbles. We got into this together, and we are going to have to get out of it together.

I am not to blame...stop that. People like you are why we will again have someone run off with this countries fortune...because we forgot to punish the criminals.

I have no home, no credit cards, no bank account, no stocks, I don't take welfare, access, SS, Medicade, medicare, and I never gamble...

So for you to say that we are all to blame, as a fellow American(I'm guessing you are), it really burns me. That's the way the cookie crumbles......sorry someone broke into your home and took everything, thats the way the cookie crumbles...."look for the bugler, no we don't do that, blame yourself and your neighbors, you have to live with the loss. But I got some insurance I want my brother-in-law sell ya".

I thought fellow American would stand by one another, I was so wrong it makes me cry.

That we was obviously a collective we. I do not own a home either, nor do i have credit cards, receive welfare or SS, or any of the things you mentioned (except for a bank account and stocks), so I personally am no more to blame than you personally are. The "we" mean the standard American who bought a house, the bank that made the loan, the company that built the house, and the banker that bought the packaged loans.

And stock options are not a choice for the individual manager. The company designated that you will receive your salary as part cash, part stock to better align the needs and the longevity of the company with those of the managers. For the most part this system works, but there are exceptions to every rule. I can understand your being frustrated; we all are. But the common consumer cannot continue to prosperity without the investment banks at the top, and they cannot continue on without us.

I thought fellow Americans would stand by one another, I was so wrong it makes me cry.

roadlesstraveled : Not all Americans are so brainwashed they can't get past theory to see reality. Take heart in knowing that....I hear you.

Americans are standing by one another. American bankers are standing next to politicians with their hand out, and the politicions are giving them our money. See... I wouldn't cry roadlesstraveled, we're still united!

@ Great Greg;

Now you've made me feel even better!

I knew it!

you are righ about that. Is everyone ready for the fireworks? I hear that NK is going to give us a free show thanks to our coward in chief and the other tree huggers in DC.

"We haven't seen anything yet. The economy isn't coming back until Obama, Reid, and Pelosi go away."

Maybe you haven't seen anything yet, but that doesn't mean his policies are a failure.

I'm in the housing industry, and I can definitely see an improvement, it's small and slow, but it is there.

Slow and steady will win the race, and spending money on improving our country is a hell of a lot smarter than spending it on destroying someone else's.

A significant amount of the money we spend on "destroying" other countries goes into the defense industry, made up of millions of working Americans. If THE ONE keeps up with his Apologetic World Tour I'm thinking a lot of those hard working American's will join the almost 10% unemployment rate, sending it even higher.

Slow and steady will win the race, and spending money on improving our country is a hell of a lot smarter than spending it on destroying someone else's.

Obama, Reid, and Pelsoi are spending a wad in Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Why don't you have them fired?

Slow and steady

Theres the problem. It's not slow and steady.

Well, maybe its slow.

Quick on the draw and unread or studied, but, so slow at getting out, they won't have enough to fix it again, as the hole keeps getting deeper and deeper. Its his version of trickle, and I mean trickle down economics.

I here a second package may be on the way.

Why do people who are so against Obama keep refering to him as some sort of saviour? I have not heard one person who is for him call him that.

p2b - are you suggesting that our military personel would get laid off if there was no war? Really? Cause you know, we could really use them right here.

kma - So you mean you were against the war from the start? Just because Obama got stuck with the war doesn't mean it's all his fault. What would you have the current administration do? Immediately stop and pull everyone and everything out? As I said, slow and steady will do it's work.

And Greg I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm just wiling to give the current policies time to work, or not work. It can't be worse than what the last administration was doing.

At the moment, it keeps going down and down. By the time it finishes to the bottom, the money he has so-called allocated for stimulus hasn't even started and he's already starting to talk about a second stimulus bill to try to stop the downfall.

He said it was an emergency, and emergency means, FIX IT NOW.

If we have to wait for his so-called help, it will be to late.

Un-employment is now projected at over 10%. Were is the stimulus?

kma - So you mean you were against the war from the start? Just because Obama got stuck with the war doesn't mean it's all his fault. What would you have the current administration do? Immediately stop and pull everyone and everything out? As I said, slow and steady will do it's work.

If one was truly against the war and not just the man who initiated it, one would pull out immediately from that war, yes. Obama voiced opposition to the wars being very vocal about how Iraq was a war of choice, a war of choice that Obama himself has chosen to continue, and he's complained about our troops killing civilians in both wars and it is now Obama ordering the killing. Obama is a big cheesey hypocrite. Obama is continuing the wars because they were the right thing to do in the first place.

Greg - I admit, I'm nervous too about how things are going, but I do recall him saying that things will get worse before they get better. I couldn't help smirking and thinking "huh, ya think so?". :) But thats just how things work.

kma - What? that doesn't even make sense. When you can tell me how they can succesfully "pull the plug" on the war without getting many more people killed, then maybe I'll listen to you. Until then, you just enjoy your ranting, and I'll keep watching the prior administration's mess getting cleaned up.

I don't think a lot of folks are going to be able to wait that long.

I had one client already hang himself 3 days ago, and 4 of my clients are now out of business.

We have lost 55% of our business because our contractors (building) have gone out of business.....

I wonder if those guys are singing the same song you are WTBGC....

Probably not, I wasn't singing either when I was laid off last year. I was damn lucky to get my job back recently on temp (due to the small upswing in the housing market), but that could change any day.

So, what would you have them do? I certainly don't know how to snap my fingers and fix things. I imagine stopping the @!$%# ball that's been rolling down the hill for such a long time is gonna take some time.

When you can tell me how they can succesfully "pull the plug" on the war without getting many more people killed, then maybe I'll listen to you.

Obama didn't care Hussein and the Taliban were killing thousands, including women and children, so why the concern now? Why would many people get killed? The violence is just the natives opposing US occupation, right. They were good people minding their own business until Bush stirred up a hornet's nest, right? Besides, Obama isn't buying any votes with the money he's spending on the wars, so the sacrifice of a few thousand or a couple of million non-Americans to get that money back where Obama can increase his power is worth that cost. If Obama thinks the war and its methods and adverse effects are unjust he should leave immediately. If Obama got his desired vote boost badmouthing Bush and the wars but really recongnized their need and long term value to the world, he would continue them, just like he is choosing to do.

How is Obama going to take advantage of the unemployment crisis? It would be a shame to let this one go unexploited.

Holy crap, that's hilarious.

You do realize that the links you posted are coming from a variety of media sources, not the White House.....right?

LMAO!

Sounds like the south park episode on the attacking guinea pigs.

"I'm so startled"!

kissmyarsenal -

I see an Unemployment Czar on the horizon.

You do realize that the links you posted are coming from a variety of media sources, not the White House.....right?

You do realize, if you check those sources, the term "concerned" and phrase "deeply concerned" is quoted directly from Obama and paraphrased in the respective headline… right?

You'd have to go into each article or view related video and see if Obama was quoted using the word "concern". Looks like in at least several of these headlines, "concern" was part of a quote. Also, different sources does not necessarily mean the media interjected the word on their own. Often times they will use a few of the source's words in the headline, in some fashion.

I see an Unemployment Czar on the horizon

How long before he becomes unemployed as well? Can you see the headlines: Obama's Unemployment czar, Jimmy Carter, is now unemployed ... for the 2nd time. That would be neat.

I too have noticed his prolific use of the term "deeply concerned." Will any comedians or SNL pick up on it too?

Lets hope so, because I feel like he's calling me a fool everytime he says deeply, or concerned, or I ummmm,I ummmmm(which he says more than anything).

@#9

LMAO!

I have every faith our public schools will produce legions of the brightest and most motivated young adults in the world, with the highest moral and ethical standards.

Why don't we just have a leader exchange.

As soon as this country can find a leader we can do the exchange. Until then, I'd trade one sub-par Obama for five acres of farmland and 3 old, broken down mules. Considering I'd be screwing the other guy, I'd also throw in one Michelle, a 1987 lime green Yugo and a lifetime supply of cap and screw credits. That should do it.

See, I dont think people understand that. All of us (the banks, consumers, everybody) got us into this mess, and we all need help to get ourselves out. You cannot place the blame for this meltdown squarely on the shoulders of the banks. This mess is a normal recession exacerbated by a startling lack of liquidity. But EVERYONE is to blame. People who bought houses, people who built houses, people who sold houses, people who gave loans, and people who bought those loans. Nobody is innocent.

So if in the grand scheme of things you are at the bottom of the so called economic totem pole, and you have to wait for the government injection to make a difference in your life, thats what you have to do. The ONLY thing we can do now is wait and pressure our respective congressmen to dole these fund out sooner than later.

Kym, you keep saying "all of us." How can you say that? I am personally debt free, do not own a house, and own my own businesses (which I pay a crap load more taxes than those that don't). I don't appreciate being lumped in with unintelligent people that lived above their means. I don't even live at my means, I live below them so I can save money just in case.

You sound like your heart is in the right place, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying I had nothing to do with this mess. Hell, I'm only 26! :)

We all need to get our heads screwed on properly when we speak of Russia and Obama. Remember we have in one corner a former KGB not agent, but Director, and in the other corner is a Community Organizer. Anyone care to bet on who will come out on top on this discussion? Mr. Putin will eat Obama alive. there is no contest here. Putin will nod his head and agree with all that Obama has to say and they have a huge Belly laugh as Obama slinks out the door. Obama needs to get back to the business at home, stop spending our money, stop paying off failing institutions with the general taxpayers money and lets get on with America.

True.

This is so funny and sad because it is true. LOL

jmo you crack me up.

No, unfortunately, that's an old description. I don't think that's been the job title for a while now. Sounds neat though!

I don't recall Obama saying he would make friends with Iran and North Korea. I voted for the guy, and believe me, I don't like what he's been doing, but I don't recall him ever saying that. Source?

I guess I phrased it wrong. I do, however, remember him saying that he was going to use diplomacy to reason with them. He seemed to really believe that they would listen to him--mostly because he wasn't Bush. It was naive to even think that any of these countries have any interest in negotiating with the U.S.

It is interesting that you voted for him and don't like what he is doing. I wonder how many other of hisvoters are not happy with him.

Yes, I do remember that as well. Unfortunately, diplomacy only goes so far.

Thanks for being civil Anderson. I know quite a few that voted for him that aren't happy with what is going on. I pretty much voted for him because I have come to loathe the Republican party of today. If they could take the religious right out of their pants, truly be "less government," and more focused on our country vs policing the world, I would completely be down with them.

...and to all, have a safe and fun 4th!

Unfortunately, both major parties suck, in my opinion :(

He really doesn't catch on so fast for such an intelligent man.

Allegedly intelligent man.