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Marriage thrives despite our evolving sex lives

Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:38 AM EDT
business, health, sex, women, only-on-msnbc-com, marriage, age, married, marry, sexploration----
msnbc.com News — Brian Alexander, msnbc.com - Only on msnbc.com

stock photography, seamless background, marriage, divorce, relationship, family, love

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— It may have worked as a plotline for “Sex and the City,” but according to new  government figures, very few American women need fear being an “old maid.”

Eighty-six percent of women marry by age 40, according to the National Center for Health Statistics which recently released revised data gathered in 2002. And those women are waiting longer than ever to wed — age 25 on average.

More than 20 years ago, a Newsweek magazine article called “The Marriage Crunch” scared the bejesus out of many women by stating that if a white, college-educated woman hadn't married by age 30, she had a slim chance of ever tying the knot. The most notorious nugget of the article declared that a 40-year-old single woman had a better chance of being killed by a terrorist than getting married.

The article was wrong then and now, a generation later, it is even more off the mark.

The vast majority of women who want to marry actually do, although they're no longer in a rush to do it. Does that mean women and men are less interested in marriage than in the past?

No! Americans love marriage compared to people in other industrialized countries. While Americans get hitched at a rate of 7.5 per every 1,000 inhabitants in a given year, the French and Germans marry at a rate of 4.5 to 4.9 per 1,000, Swedes 4.0 to 4.4, Belgians 2.8 to 3.9.

Yet as American sex lives have changed, not coincidentally, calls to “save marriage” have grown. That seems to indicate some confusion about the purpose of marriage and the role of sex within it.

Like the old Newsweek article, some traditionalists fret that Americans are falling out of the marriage habit. “Marriage has fallen by the wayside,” declares the National Marriage Project in its most recent report from 2007. The Project, a research organization based at Rutgers University in Piscataway, N.J., blames “secular individualism” and tolerance of “alternative lifestyles” for marriage's perceived
unfashionable status.

While such statements seem to fly in the face of the recent government data, the Project bases them on the divorce rate (about 45 percent of all marriages), the number of adults who are not married (roughly 50 percent of people older than age 18 are unmarried at any one time because of divorce, a spousal death, or by choice) and relaxed attitudes toward phenomena like out-of-wedlock births and cohabitation. It argues that “the institution of marriage needs to be promoted by all levels of society, particularly the families, the schools, the churches, the non-profit sector, and the government.”

This is essentially a political argument, part of the now-hibernating culture wars that are rooted in worry over sexual morality. But turning marriage into a political issue is a losing idea no matter where on the liberal-conservative spectrum you fall because marriage isn't going away. It's just changing, quickly.

“I always tell my students that everything we study right now could be out of date in 10 years, that’s how rapidly the social environment is changing,” said Christine Whelan, a University of Iowa sociologist and author of “Why Smart Men Marry Smart Women.”

‘The personalized marriage’
We may idolize the perfect marriage, but need to recognize that its purpose has been redefined.

The “institutional” marriages of the 19th century were practical affairs, meant to establish family bonds, distribute property and raise children as part of a unit within a community, Whelan explained. Then, from about World War I to the early 1960s, “people married for friendship, for a division of labor — what men did and what women did — and for love and attachment,” she said.

Since the 1970s it has been evolving into our current phase, the “personalized marriage.” This is all about what the relationship can do for you as an individual,” said Whelan.

In recent surveys, nearly 90 percent of young people say they want to find their “soulmate.” A 2007 Pew study found that “mutual happiness and fulfillment” was cited by Americans as the main reason to get married by a three-to-one margin. Children ranked eighth on a list of items that made a “successful marriage.”

The rise of the personalized marriage happens to dovetail with Americans’ changing sexual norms. While the age for first marriages has climbed, the age at which Americans become sexually active has fallen. The mean age of first intercourse for boys and girls is now about 17 according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data. Contrast that with women who were born before World War II. More than 80 percent were still virgins at 18.

To which many might say “Ah ha! We’ve loosened our sexual morals so much we’ve endangered marriage.”

But something else has happened. Women are freer to pursue their educational and career goals, as well as their carnal desires. That delay allows them to be more selective in their partner choice, so they can wait to find a more suitable spouse or time of life.

According to Whelan, women who wait at least until age 25 often have better marriages than those women who marry at 20, although waiting until after age 25 doesn’t seem to add much to marital stability. Men who get married before they turn 25 are
twice as likely to get divorced, Australian researchers recently reported.

It can be argued that premarital sex has freed us to make better choices when it comes to marriage partners and to know ourselves better, too.

Those who think our culture now devalues marriage often point to women’s success in education and the workplace and to high-powered women who choose to be single mothers — the “Murphy Brown” effect. But while women now outnumber men in graduate schools and often those women out-earn their future mates, the vast majority of such women still marry and younger men are very attracted to them. Dorothy Parker’s old saw about men not making passes at women who wear glasses has been turned into Tina Fey worship.

However, there is one segment of our society in which women do not marry at the numbers they used to, helping to fuel worry over marriage in general. But it’s not about sex, it’s about economics and lack of education.

According to the new government figures, about 53 percent of poor black women have not been married by age 35 and it's not because they are too busy working on Wall Street.

“There is a diverging demographic of marriage separating the marriage haves from the marriage have nots, and that split is getting bigger and bigger,” Whelan said.

Marriage as a job
But, as Whelan suggested, the average middle-class altar-bound types, have come to regard marriage as a form of personal enrichment, like a Tony Robbins seminar.  

It’s not. Marriage is a job. It’s a job we may love and find rewarding, but there are days (weeks? years?) when it’s a slog. Pop culture has fed us the ideal of wildly romantic love accompanied by a rock power ballad and filled us with the belief that if we’re not having nightly explosive sex with our spouses of 15 years, we’re losers.

The newest figures prove that we don’t hate marriage in this country, we just have a problem staying married because we still don’t understand the complex institution and become disenchanted when our expectations crumble. In the segments of our society in which marriage may truly be in trouble, the cause isn’t sex, or tolerance of “alternative lifestyles.” It’s lousy education, tough economics and, yes, sometimes a lack of personal discipline. Try fitting all that into a political philosophy.

Among the well-educated and economically secure — an increasingly rare bunch these days — we managed to break the shackles binding marriage to sex and to free ourselves to make better choices later. That’s good. But we risk those marriages by forgetting that to a large degree they are business arrangements, ones in which you get to dress inappropriately at the office, but business just the same. 

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  • Public Discussion (67)
John of Indiana

I'm a 50+ 2-time loser. Been married twice, been divorced twice.

Off-hand, I'd say I have a better chance of capturing or killing O-Sum-Guy Bin Fergotten than I do of getting married again.

And THAT chance dwindles to unmeasurable if Gay Marriage is legalized nationwide (sarcasm, for the irony-impaired)

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:02 AM EDT
Levi777

I read an article not too long ago about a new phenomena in the arena of marriage that is straight from the pit of hell. It is called, "Starter Husbands". What happens is a woman will accept a marriage proposal, and get married. After about a year, more or less, she divorces her husband. The purpose of the marriage was to find out what she wants in marriage. And the husband is devastated, because by design, he knew nothing about it. The focus of the article, the woman, divorced her husband after 15 months because "He was too sunny." What is so heinous about this is that, while the woman claims the marriage is bascally research, she deceives her husband in a very personal and intimate way. She pretends to love him as a wife, but all the while, has no intention of growing old with him. I wouldn't do that to someone I hate, let alone marry! And were I mid twenties, cool job, and this amazing woman agreed to marry me, you can bet I'd think twice. Maybe it's time for guys to play hard to get.

  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:08 PM EDT
kfm6

I loved your description of the newest "phenomenon" - it made me laugh out loud at work! (Uh, I'm not doing anything amiss. Just working. Yeah, that's the ticket.) That is absolutely evil, and in no way an "empowering" trend for women. You know what? Marriage is work and sacrifice and putting the needs of our spouse above our own. It is a sacred institution and we should treat it as such. That breaks my heart that a woman would do this to a man who pledged to love and honor her above all others. And we women complain that men don't hold up their end of the bargain? That makes me want to puke. Ladies, men aren't perfect but a lot of them are trying. And you know what, if they were, what makes you think they would be interested in you?? Wow. Sad, sad, sad.

    #1.2 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:45 PM EDT
    Reply
    Hot-in-Miami

    Well John, I am not sure if your odds are as high as mine, being divorced and with a child. Seems guys in my town run the other way when they find out you have a child and an ex that will, unfortunately, always be in the picture because of the child...

    • 1 vote
    Reply#2 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:16 PM EDT
    Tangiers

    o.. yea. lol. better chance of winning the lottery for you

    • 2 votes
    #2.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:38 PM EDT
    Levi777

    Hot in Miami, keep looking, and don't settle. After my divorce (I was the perp) and the really bad mistake, I set a condition that any woman had to love my children as her own. Well, I found her, and we've been married 18 years now. I encourage you to make that a condition. These "run the other way" types don't deserve you or your child. There are lots of men like me who would give their right arm for another chance to get it right, and have finally figgured out what's really important. And you know, conventional wisdom would say you won't meet the picture I've painted in a bar, but then I met my wife in a bar. Never say never. Friends bugged me to go to a comedy night. I went. She was there, but got stood up by new friends. The rest is history!

    Don't give up!

      #2.2 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:35 PM EDT
      John of Indiana

      Hot, I'm sure you have a wonderful child, but my second wife had 3 sons and a daughter, 2 of whom ignored me and the other 2 who used to say endearing things to me like "You ain't sh!t, you just some clown who f***s my mom", when they weren't robbing me blind to buy drugs and booze.

      So, I would hope people could understand why I'd be a little hesitant to get involved with somebody who still has children at home. I've been an "empty nester" for for 6 years now myself.

      • 1 vote
      #2.3 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:32 PM EDT
      Darthfrodo

      Marriage is a job. At any one time 50% of adults are not married.

      I guess that makes me one of the 50% considered unemployed??? Sweet.

        #2.4 - Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:13 AM EST
        Reply
        Road Warrior-1005773

        While Americans get hitched at a rate of 7.5 per every 1,000 inhabitants in a given year, the French and Germans marry at a rate of 4.5 to 4.9 per 1,000, Swedes 4.0 to 4.4, Belgians 2.8 to 3.9.

        Marriage happens out of necessity more than love as these statistics show. If Obama gets his way, we will soon be like Germany and France. Marriage between man and woman will be a rarity. We will be married to the government. But like it was in the early part of the 20th century, once you are married, you are stuck. Divorce from the government is not an option. So, before you get married to the government, make sure that is really what you want because there is no out.

          Reply#3 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:40 PM EDT
          mo1-1138156

          Road warrior I've notice you in several blogs and in every last one of them no matter WHAT the subject is you find a way to blame Obama. You are just a hater and you don't even completely read the articles because facts don't matter to you, all that matters to you is to make a "dig" at the President!!

          • 5 votes
          #3.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:37 PM EDT
          Ian Blokesworth

          Given the high American divorce and remarriage rates, I bet the first time marriage rates are similar to those of the other countries.

            #3.2 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:41 PM EDT
            Road Warrior-252445

            mo,

            You are quite observant for a liberal. I have had eight years to learn from the left on the technique of hating the president. They have trained me well. What goes around comes around.

              #3.3 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:13 PM EDT
              H.H.-1105932

              Road Warrior,

              Yes and we've had eight years of being called Unamerican, unpatriotic, and commie bastards. Then you people do the same thing when your guy isn't in office. Stupid hypocrite.

              • 5 votes
              #3.4 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:03 PM EDT
              Levi777

              People! People! People! Wow! All the name calling! It really doesn't do much for your positions or your take on President Obama by all this verbal hooliganism! Obama had to be elected. Bad for the country, yes, but it couldn't have gone any other way. We all need to cooperate so we can figure out how to survive him! Now, shake hands...shaaaakkkeee haaannnddds....

                #3.5 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:43 PM EDT
                Thom1111

                Better watch out Road Warrior, you have a stalker.....

                  #3.6 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:05 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  JJ-317453

                  Marriage may be thriving, but I won't be attending any more of them. Neither will my friends. Not until it is a basic human right for everyone, gay and straight. I simply do not believe in "special rights" for heterosexuals. This creates an unequal situation of one group having more worth than others. Unconstitutional. It is very wrong.

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#4 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:48 PM EDT
                  Rational Poster

                  JJ - Check out the plumbing and you can see it is a situation we are born into - we did not crate it politically.

                  • 3 votes
                  #4.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:52 PM EDT
                  Ian Blokesworth

                  Marriage in itself is unconstitutional. That's the entire value of it: a protected institution for creating and raising children.

                    #4.2 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:43 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    Alaskan1983

                    I've been told 'I want to marry you' multiple times and I'm still single...these guys thought if they told me 'the line' I'd be strung along. I always discovered what they were up to (no good cheaters) and saved myself. I'm crossing my fingers that my current boyfriend is the keeper I think he is. :)

                      Reply#5 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:55 PM EDT
                      Tangiers

                      lol. good luck to you.

                      • 1 vote
                      #5.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
                      Reply
                      Road Warrior-1005773

                      The love of my life has four legs, floppy ears, dreamy eyes, gives good wet kisses and moans when I scratch her butt.

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#6 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:04 PM EDT
                      Pokahiney

                      Wow, I hope you two don't have kids.

                      • 2 votes
                      #6.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:55 PM EDT
                      Road Warrior-252445

                      Why would I want kids when there is a 50% chance of divorce? That would only punish the innnocent children. Of course, most people don't think that far ahead. It is all about me, what makes me happy, and to hell with children.

                        #6.2 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:15 PM EDT
                        Rational Poster

                        RD - Divorce is not a "chance". It is a decision.

                          #6.3 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:54 PM EDT
                          Levi777

                          I agree. Road Warrior should not have children.

                          • 4 votes
                          #6.4 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:18 PM EDT
                          Thom1111

                          Levi, weren't you decrying verbal hooliganism just ten posts ago? For shame. You really are a hypocrite.

                            #6.5 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:08 AM EDT
                            Reply
                            dejavu956

                            My marriage is the last paragraph. A business arrangement which I did not realize at the time was happening and I don't even get to dress inappropriately! We share a house but not a bedroom. He has his income and expenses and I have mine. We make good house and travel companions and I certainly don't need to be concerned about being pressured to be intimate. We don't argue so have a peaceful household. I have had a "hot and passionate" relationship (not marriage) and it was fantastic while it lasted. So, "here's to the memories"!

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#7 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:21 PM EDT
                            Tangiers

                            Well divorce then. lol

                            Dont know if u have kids, but the only thing to split would be the house. lol jk

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:44 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            Cniht

                            How about this. Marriage is thriving. Yes people are getting married. However, they are getting divorced almost as fast, and going for round 2 or 5 on a more common occurrence.

                            Also what aspect does this have with regard to this little bit about marriage, namely children. The only mention he had it in there was that it was 8th on the list. While it may be 8th on the list of single young people. When that baby is on the way in a marriage or for those outside marriage considering a committed relationship it rockets to number 1 with an exclamation point.

                            Yes I know it's old fashioned, but originally back in the day, children were a prime concern of every marriage. Also any long term heavily peer reviewed credible study you can pull up shows that a stable home with two parents improves how that child or any child or children that come out of that setup is markedly better off. Not just because of the entire parenting roll, but because of the financial aspect and other behavioral items as well.

                            The main area or domain of this columnist is sex, so I understand his slant on the entire marriage issue in that regard. What I don't agree with it the portraying as if that's the sum total to worry about.

                            Children and the stable raising of children is still a primary function of marriage and it is a heavily important one with regard to how a society and culture evolves. If the next generation is a bunch of degenerates don't expect an improvement in the culture, living standards, and other things as the older population dies out.

                              Reply#8 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
                              kfm6

                              Wait, did I just read a coherent and moral opinion? How refreshing! While I may not be ready to add children to the mix just yet (still a newlywed with a husband finishing school), marriage is primarily for the raising and care of children. I do not CARE what anyone else might have to say to the contrary - marriage is and has always been primarily an institution for the raising of the next generation. It is a model that teaches us the crucial need for mothers and fathers, men and women in a child's life; that genders are not interchangeable or unnecessary, but complimentary parts of a whole. I believe that children have the right to be born into a family Mom and Dad are married, respect and love one another, and are committed to caring for their children. To change the fundamental definition of marriage is to undermine the truths that "traditional" marriage teaches, something that I think can only damage our society. Is marriage perfect? No. Has it been used in heinous ways? Yes. While I support equal benefits for couples of all genders because the government has become so intrusive in our lives that a lack of such benefits is a serious hardship, I do not believe that changing the definition of marriage is in the best interest of our society.

                              • 1 vote
                              #8.1 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:54 PM EDT
                              Reply
                              beaner-822701

                              I'm a 51 y/o who just married for the first time last year...not because I couldn't find the right person, or because one of us was commitment-phobic, but because our state finally legalized same-sex marriage. Folks, 26 years is a seriously LONG engagement, LOL! But that long, long wait just made our big day - 25 years to the day after we first promised to spend the rest of our lives together - that much sweeter!

                              • 3 votes
                              Reply#9 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
                              Tangiers

                              eww

                              • 3 votes
                              #9.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:23 PM EDT
                              JustLove

                              Congratulations!! I can't wait for the day when everybody can be able to experience the same joy as you do, if they so choose.

                                #9.2 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:06 PM EDT
                                Levi777

                                Wow, Rational Poster, with no guile and certainly not patronizing, your comment is probably the most rational comment I've ever read on Newsvine.

                                  #9.3 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:12 PM EDT
                                  Tangiers

                                  I take it that your comment was towards me?

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #9.4 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:49 AM EDT
                                  John of Indiana

                                  Congratulations and a long life together to the two of you!

                                  (hey, just because I suck at being married don't mean I can't be glad for others)

                                    #9.5 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:25 PM EDT
                                    Tangiers

                                    ewww again to beaners post

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #9.6 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:57 PM EDT
                                    Tangiers

                                    EWWW Beaner

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #9.7 - Tue Aug 4, 2009 4:23 PM EDT
                                    Tangiers

                                    Disgusting beaner! ewww

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #9.8 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:12 PM EDT
                                    Tangiers

                                    Beaner's gross!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #9.9 - Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    Max-418253

                                    the “personalized marriage.” This is all about what the relationship can do for you as an individual,” said Whelan.

                                    Above is where I think that modern marriages fails. Because people marry for what marriage can do for us soley, they lack the ability to understand how to stay in a relationship.

                                    The only complaint that I have with the article is that it gave me the impression that everything is rosy in regards to Americans getting married, except for poor black women. It almost ignores the downside of most marriages failing and. I do not see anything great about the divorce rate. Heck, my aunt is on husband #3 and she has 9 screwed up kids.

                                    I would also like to know exactly why most women choose their partner?

                                      Reply#10 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
                                      Ian Blokesworth

                                      Max-418253 wrote "Because people marry for what marriage can do for us soley, they lack the ability to understand how to stay in a relationship."

                                      The female self-help industry has cultured a female mindset for the ideal marriage, including some sort of perpetual yet vague emotional fulfillment that a man should provide without considering that he is unable to provide. Given that women are able to seize half of the husband's assets with an average of six year American marriage as well as children and a child support/alimony stream for two decades, it's clear that divorce laws favor the wife.

                                      Luckily, American men are just beginning to wake up and avoid marriage. Countless books are written on how to convert the commitmentphobe man without understanding that men fear the six year marriage because it is so costly.

                                        #10.1 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:12 PM EDT
                                        Corpha

                                        If women got the equal pay we deserve, it'd be just as likely that men would take half of their wife's money in a divorce.

                                        I do agree that most "self-help" books, romantic comedies and Cosmo-esque magazines create unrealistic expectations and weird relationship "rules," though.

                                          #10.2 - Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:13 AM EDT
                                          MsKat

                                          I think it's hard to speak for a gender on why one decides to get married and the qualifications they look for in a spouse. Everyone is just so different. Myself, I married husband #1 because I loved him and because I was 19 and wanted to be grown up. As we grew up, he went one way, I went the other. We're still good friends. I married husband #2, at 25, because I loved him and because I was trying to come out of serious mental problems, just as he was. We leaned on each other and made each other laugh, but when I got better and he didn't, it got old and we ended up resenting each other. We don't speak anymore. Husband-to-be #3, now I'm at 32, I'm marrying him because I love him and we compliment each other wonderfully and support each other and share duties and responsibilities equally and enjoy the same things in life together.

                                          So, Max, in my case, I loved or love all 3 men, but the timing was wrong and the circumstances were unfavorable for the first two. And I was young and didn't know who I was or what I wanted. I want friendship, intimacy, fun, laughter, communication, reliability and trust. I have all that with #3, and I've known him much longer than I knew the other two...and I've known myself longer. Maybe it's a crap shoot but from what I know, I'm willing to take it.

                                            #10.3 - Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:27 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Keith-1218285

                                            The article neglects the fact of high divorce rates. Also, talk to any guy in their 20's and they will tell you that most of their peers are becoming less and less interested in marriage after watching how their fathers, brothers, uncles, and friends have been abused by their wives and the biased courts and laws in this country.

                                            As Mathew Weeks has correctly stated in an article entitled "The Marriage Strike," "If we accept the old feminist argument that marriage is slavery for women, then it is undeniable that — given the current state of the nation's family courts — divorce is slavery for men."

                                            • 1 vote
                                            Reply#11 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:59 PM EDT
                                            JustLove

                                            I strongly agree with this, but I also have something to add.

                                            As a woman, and also someone who watched her father be mentally abused by her mother for many years, I have a message for my fellow sex: We need to start treating our spouses better.

                                            How can we, as women, expect our significant others to trust us, love us, stay with us, be faithful to us, and respect us, when they are, quite frankly, terrified of us? Many men are afraid to say/do the smallest thing for fear of their wife's reaction. This doesn't excuse behavior like lying or cheating by any means, but there's a reason that men act in these ways sometimes.

                                            (And I hope that everyone understands I don't mean all of "us")

                                            The amount of abuse being suffered by men is staggeringly under-reported because it's just not acceptable by society's standards. It's estimated that as many men are being abused by women as women are by men. This has to change. Abuse is abuse. Everybody is happy to say "It's never okay to hit a woman" but it's not okay to ever hit anybody!

                                            I think if women started examining their behavior, they might realize they're doing things that they don't want to do and that their marriage is suffering for it. Which then might lead to a lower divorce rate.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #11.1 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:26 PM EDT
                                            John of Indiana

                                            I think that's what coloured my daughter's attitude towards marriage and children. After the way her mother treated (cheated) me and the abuse we both got from her step-family (ultimately winding up homeless), she wants no part of either.

                                              #11.2 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:28 PM EDT
                                              MsKat

                                              I agree with this and not only in marriages. I have seen plenty of women in general just boss their significant others around and treat them like servants rather than spouses. I don't know when it became acceptable, but I see it a lot.

                                              Also, in the younger parenting generation, I have noticed that many women simply brush their husbands aside once they have kids. Many modern women subscribe to this attachment parenting where the kids are the main focus and often the only focus. Discipline is light and the kids are made out to be the center of the universe, which leaves the husband lonely and feeling treated like a child. I think it also does a disservice to the children, who think the world revolves around them and they never have to learn to accept any responsibility for themselves.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #11.3 - Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:39 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              Rational Poster

                                              Got married at 20 - both of us. We are professionals with two married children. We have been married 37 years. We are empty nesters again - running around naked from time to time, going out to eat once about every day, being playful and loving every day of it. I wish everyone had this kind of experience. Bumps along the way - you bet - but neither of us would exchange this for the world.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#12 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:58 PM EDT
                                              Tangiers

                                              Hope I have that one day... what you have, and my parents have

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #12.1 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:23 PM EDT
                                              Ian Blokesworth

                                              You have it good.

                                                #12.2 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:13 PM EDT
                                                John of Indiana

                                                I'm jealous. Good on ya!

                                                  #12.3 - Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:01 AM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  tgbedwards

                                                  Marriage has not been a "job" since the pre-women's liberation days. When it was unheard of for a women to wear a suit and work in an office, or when it was freakish to see a man clean his home or feed a child, then it was a job. Now, in the modern age, marriage is a contract between two individuals. It grants them with legal rights, tax benefits, and a sense of duty to one another, but just like every contract, when one party is in breach, it is broken (divorce). When it is no longer mutually beneficial, it is absolved. Women no longer have to be dependant on men to bring home food; they can do it themselves. Men no longer are dependant on women to keep a tidy house; they can go to the store and buy a broom too.

                                                  The very idea that I saw this article on a media outlet that I go to in order to avoid the right wing malarchy that I get from fox offends me.

                                                  The reason for high divorce rates is because people assume that marriage is a lifetime commitment. It very well can be, don't get me wrong, but we, as humans, evolved to have multiple mates. It is a tactic we recieved from our primate ancestors. Females tend to be attracted to the male with the best set of traits to pass on, and males with the best traits try their best to pass those traits with as many females with similarly survivable traits. It is the the way of nature. To say that we should wait out the "slog" because this person who we thought we were in love with at 18 no longer interests us at 60 is preposterous. People change! That person who you met at 18 probably won't be the same person at 28, and I would bet cold hard cash that they are not the same person at 38. If you fell in love with the 18 year old, and now are not in love with the 38 year old, why stay married? I am by no means saying that if you simply are attracted to 18 yearold that you should constantly trade down for the "newer model", but if you have a serious problem with the person you are/were with because as the years went by you grew apart, maybe it is a sign that you should not be together.

                                                  Marriage WAS a job. A job that in ancient times allowed people to survive and pass on their lineage to the next generation. It was a set of roles that states that men should go get the food and kill the intruders, while women should cook the food, nurse the children, and clean the cave/hut/tent. Now that we live in a world where women can get their own food, we have laws to keep us safe from invasions of savage hordes, raising a child is not JUST a woman's place but in fact can be anyone's role from mother, to father, to nanny or daycare specialist, and we can go to the store and buy a Swiffer mop to clean our own cave/hut/apartment, such roles are out dated.

                                                  If you think the divorce rate has gone up dramatically from the legendary good ol'e days, maybe you should look at the amount of people from that age that WOULD have divorced their spouses for instances of (for instance) marital rape, infidelity, physical, sexual, economic, or emotional abuse and maybe we shall see that divorce has only become more socially acceptable, but the traps that have distroyed marriages have been their for ages.

                                                    Reply#13 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:25 PM EDT
                                                    Ian Blokesworth

                                                    tgbedwards wrote "The reason for high divorce rates is because people assume that marriage is a lifetime commitment"

                                                    While you do have a point that marriages are stressed with the increase in longetivity, I don't think this accounts for the average duration of six years. What we do see are marriage and domestic laws that favor women by awarding them full child custody, a significant percentage of assets for only a few years of marriage, and an income stream for the next two decades that is child support plus alimony in disguise. Given that women initiate divorce at twice the rate of men (70% of divorces initiated by women), it is clear that these women feel they are better off divorced.

                                                    "If you think the divorce rate has gone up dramatically from the legendary good ol'e days, maybe you should look at the amount of people from that age that WOULD have divorced their spouses for instances"

                                                    Agreed. Men in those days controlled assets and children. Yet, they believe it was better for the mother and wife to be present. Modern American women do not share this value of their spouses given that divorce gives them access to assets that were accumulated before and after the marriage as well as during the marriage.

                                                    I speculate that American divorce rates would drop significantly if child custody laws were equitable, as in, full custody was granted to women in only 50% of the cases. The rates would drop further if all pre-marital assets were excluded from divorce settlements and post-marital income streams such as their husband's pension check were blocked.

                                                    That leaves the men that file for divorce. Women have rightly benefited from the criminalization of coercive marital sex and physical assault. Those laws have not evolved to cover physical abuse by the wife, but more significantly, verbal and social abuse. In the past, the heavy male fist was available to counter the sharp female tongue. Now, the female tongue reigns.

                                                    Marriage is changing. Women are finding that younger men are less interested in marriage. We see that 40% of babies in 2008 were born to unmarried mothers. The culture of female divorce extortion is experiencing a heavy backlash from men that are wising up.

                                                      #13.1 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:25 AM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      Rational Poster

                                                      TG - Ok, you present one view of marriage relationships - that is we are like other animals and driven by primal instincts that are inherited and evolving. I'll present a view that we were created in God's image and marriage is an insitution from above that is a model of the relationship between God and His church.

                                                      Marriages, then, deserve our best, our most sacred effort and when we give it that and honor the Lord in our marriage, the marriage overflows with joy for the couple.

                                                      Another view of marriage.

                                                        Reply#14 - Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:16 PM EDT
                                                        tgbedwards

                                                        If you wish to bring religion into the equation then you'd have to include the innumerable cultural practices that are present. You're view comes from a 20th century, Western (typically northern European) Judeo-Christian view of marriage. I was trying to reference marriage as a whole, not just in your tiny sect.

                                                          #14.1 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:22 AM EDT
                                                          Cniht

                                                          TG,

                                                          I hate to state this so bluntly.

                                                          Catholicism in and of itself is over 1 billion members globally and most of the developed world.

                                                          To state that Christianity is a 'tiny' sect is moronic.

                                                          The only other few 'tiny sects' which would be of note are the Chinese (mostly Buddhist and or ancestor worship), Muslim in which women have no rights so this discussion is irrelevant, and Indian based in the Buddhist-Hindu religion.

                                                          I understand your base point of view as human being animal, I've heard the argument before. However, please refrain from the absurd.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #14.2 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
                                                          Rational Poster

                                                          TG - Your "tiny sect" comment sort of exposes your irrational biases - no unlike we often see on forums like this. Just for the record ---

                                                        • Christianity: 2.1 billion
                                                        • Islam: 1.5 billion
                                                        • Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
                                                        • Hinduism: 900 million
                                                        • Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
                                                        • Buddhism: 376 million
                                                        • It would appear that Christianity - one of many religions that believe in a monotheistic God and monogamy in marriage is a 2 to 1 count versus your "tiny" secular sect.

                                                            #14.3 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            Mobius S.

                                                            Many good points listed here from users about this article. Marriage is a complex topic, consisting of sociology, psychology, and more so in this generation the effects of popular culture, media, and technology. This article takes on an interesting position regarding recent statistics. I don't necessarily agree with the author from msnbc because I have recently read an article in the Harford Courant that alluded to an increase in the divorce rate which occurs between the first and second year in marriage.

                                                            According to this article, more women are getting married before the age of 40, however that does not mean that the marriage is going to last. As a generation "Y"er, I have been married for two years and overall I am happy with our marriage, but for anyone out there who is married, remarried or divorced will understand that no marriage is ever free of any bumps in the road. It is the extent of those bumps that ultimately effect the quality of the marriage. Further, some bumps are normal such as arguments and/or disagreements, while other more major bumps can be detrimental to the marriage, such as infidelity and lack of trust. I can relate to anyone who has been divorced due to issues relating to infidelity because it does happen frequently and that is the leading cause effecting divorce from both genders.

                                                            Luckily we both strive to communicate and work out any dilemmas that inevitable will arise through the course of raising a family. we also have a good relationship where we both understand that we cannot be idealists about marriage as being a constant rosey picture. Sacrifices have to be made on both sides and trust has to be in place. I admit as a guy I have faults about being a new father/husband. I try to listen as much as possible and actually implement whatever is being communicated to me in order to improve.

                                                            Women and men have different needs and that takes flexibility. Marriage should not be a confinement because anything confined cannot prosper. The issue for many young people who may jump into marriage for the wrong reasons is that they may have not matured enough to be able to handle the lifelong commitment that marriage entails. As folks who are married know, being married is a whole new reality which changes the way we view ourselves and the world around us.

                                                            In my generation, we were raised on MTV and media which endorses sex and being single. We have a "drive through" mentality and want instant gratification. I don't want to speak for all young people, but many tend to quit when the going gets tough, instead of opting to negotiate a means of compromise. At times my generation of twenty somethings tend to be too individualistic and too self driven to see another person's point of view and that is not a healthy character trait. Some of the sociological concepts may shed some light on the high divorce rate for newlyweds or it may just be my useless opinion...

                                                            I don't want to rant any further. I can elaborate further on any of these points if asked to.

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            Reply#15 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:33 AM EDT
                                                            Tangiers

                                                            Good, clear and intelligent post. I share your beliefs

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #15.1 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:32 PM EDT
                                                            Reply
                                                            DKM-1219724

                                                            It's such a shame marriage has turned into something where people are actually afraid or hesitant to get into. I read another article a while ago, it said that so many people are confusing lust with love. With the average age of losing virginity 17 years old, could it be more people are mistaking lust for love? However, the age people are getting married is increasing as well, so maybe Americans don't want to settle so early, and by the time they do want to settle they don't continue looking for the right one, they take what ever the quickest to get, and it's not until later they decide they are not happy. I think in order for a marriage to work, obviously, the two need to know eachother and when going through a hard time not turn to sex, but instead work through it by communicating. It's sad how things work these days, it seems as if everyone just wants a quick fix, whether it be a divorce, sex, it takes time for a marriage to work, and I've heard multiple times the most important thing is mutual respect.

                                                              Reply#16 - Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:58 PM EDT
                                                              got14u

                                                              I think that the point about how cohabitation and having sex before marriage has freed us to make better choices concerning marriage is completely wrong. Before cohabitation and sex out of wedlock were a common thing it seemed marriage fared better. Couples stayed to together and worked out the problems. Now if something happens in a relationship people just up and call it quits instead of re-examining their vows.

                                                              I've heard the expression that you should "test drive" your partner before you get married. I believe that is completely wrong. The dating process is were two people get to know each other on the social level and find out what their interests are. Once you know who your marring trust me the sex will be great. A little quick at first, but with practice it gets better. We have to stop thinking that we need to sleep with someone before we can really know them or get married. We should use the time before we get married to get to know our partner, and then when the knot is tied you have the rest of your life to have sex with someone you love based on who that person is and not what they do in the bedroom.

                                                                Reply#17 - Mon Aug 3, 2009 9:03 AM EDT
                                                                got14u

                                                                I read a post in hear that said marriage is putting your spouse above one's self. I believe that is the base of it. If your thoughts are focused on pleasing God and your mate I know that your marriage will thrive.

                                                                  #17.1 - Mon Aug 3, 2009 11:35 AM EDT
                                                                  Florida_kes

                                                                  Couples stayed to together and worked out the problems

                                                                  Ya think maybe they stayed together because the wife typically didn't have any means of supporting herself outside of the marriage and instead chose the lessor of two evils?

                                                                    #17.2 - Thu Aug 6, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                                                    got14u

                                                                    Are you saying that problems shouldn't be worked out in a marriage? I don't believe every marriage in America was forced upon the women, I bet a few of them made the choice on their own.

                                                                    and are you saying marriage is evil?

                                                                      #17.3 - Thu Aug 6, 2009 10:14 AM EDT
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      TIred of silly

                                                                      There is no rule in life that says you have to be married. Nor do you have to be married to have children. Waiting till marriage for sex, well that seems to lead to rushed marriages.

                                                                      Sex is natural and healthy. Go have some.

                                                                      Ugg, I am that rare creature, a republican that does not belive in god. It also means I will never have a normal person to vote for.

                                                                        Reply#18 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:37 PM EDT
                                                                        Tangiers

                                                                        Vote for Beaner.

                                                                        p.s. Look up

                                                                          #18.1 - Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:14 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
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