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Health reform idea: Put down the doughnut

Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:18 AM EDT
health, health-care, only-on-msnbc-com, care, smoking, reform, obesity, costs, responsibility, overweight
msnbc.com News — By JoNel Aleccia

Woman eating doughnuts coated with icing and multicoloured sprinkles msnbc stock photography health eating overweight obese fat

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— If you ask Dr. Steven Spady, there are two important words missing from the nation’s conversation about health reform: “personal responsibility.”

But Spady, a 54-year-old emergency physician in rural Kentucky, can’t talk about the topic right now. He’s too busy caring for people who he says don’t take care of themselves.

“I just had to go take care of man that left our hospital this morning and now has gone and got drunk and will suck up more health care dollars,” Spady wrote in a hurried e-mail late on a recent weeknight.

That same day, he cared for a 358-pound man with diabetes who didn’t take his medication for two days and then stayed up all night playing poker, plus five different people who overdosed on prescription drugs.

“It just makes me very upset when I have to pay more and more taxes to support government health care programs and have to work longer and longer hours to help a lot of people that just don’t seem to care,” he wrote.

It’s not that Spady lacks compassion. He’s been on medical missions to Mexico and Haiti and has donated thousands of hours of free care in the Appalachian community where he’s worked for nearly a quarter century.

But Spady is part of a growing chorus of medical professionals, researchers and ordinary citizens who contend that the touchy topic of individual responsibility has been all but ignored in the debate about how to reform the nation’s health care system — and how to pay for it.

"Seldom does anyone suggest how — or if — the individual's role should be reformed," argued Lisa Herrington, 46, a former health industry administrator who launched a discussion of the topic in May on the blog "Thoughts that Make You Think."

"Having health insurance coverage doesn't make a person healthy. It's what you do with that coverage and your personal choices that make the difference," she added.

Critics say members of Congress who've headed home for summer recess leaving no fewer than five Democratic health reform plans up in the air should be as concerned about encouraging individual accountability as they are with extending insurance coverage to 46 million Americans.

‘It's simple fairness’
“If you talk about costs, there’s something here and now that you can do,” said John F. Banzhaf, director of the anti-smoking agency Action on Smoking and Health, which has pressured members of Congress to enact a $60 a month user fee to make smokers pay part of the health insurance costs of their habit.

“If you don’t have a user fee on smokers, that forces everyone else to pay those health care costs,” said Banzahf, who is also a professor of public interest law at George Washington University Law School. “One argument is that it’s simple fairness.”

But other experts caution that the conversation about personal responsibility is not so simple.  For one thing, many Americans don’t agree that smokers, the obese or others should pay higher costs for health care based on their unhealthy habits.

Only 37 percent of U.S. adults thought it was fair to charge people with unhealthy lifestyles more for their care in 2007, down from 53 percent just a year earlier, according to Wall Street Journal Online/Harris Interactive Healthcare polls.

Asked specifically about smoking versus obesity, they came down harder on the puffers, with 57 percent favoring higher insurance rates for smokers, but only 36 percent saying the same for those who are overweight. Humphrey Taylor, chairman of the Harris Poll, said that's not surprising in a country where two-thirds of adults are overweight and 20 percent still smoke.

In some ways, those with insurance are already helping to cover those without. Insured patients pay higher costs on hospital fees, for example, to help balance out the bills of those who don't have coverage.

Growing outrage over high health care costs racked up by others' excess isn't hard to find. Message boards on msnbc.com stories related to health and health reform are filled with frustrated posters.

The catch is, not everyone can agree which health problems are the responsibility of the individual, and which are wider social concerns. Rob Gould, president of the Partnership for Prevention, a Washington, D.C., nonprofit agency aimed at decreasing disease, said he’s all for individuals becoming invested in their own good health, but notes that the community must make it easier.

“We can’t allow ‘personal responsibility,’ in quotes, to become a polite way of saying, ‘You’re on your own, Mac,’” Gould said. “When kids don’t have a way to safely bike or walk to school because there are no sidewalks, that’s not personal responsibility.”

There's also the question of where to draw the line on personal responsibility. If smoking and obesity can be fined, and motorcycle riders need to pay higher insurance rates, it opens the door to penalizing other preventable risks. Could the same logic be applied to people who have unprotected sex and turn up with a disease? Those who eat their beef on the rare side despite warnings about E. coli contamination?

Obesity health costs: $147 billion a year
There’s no doubt that the bulk of the nation’s health care costs are self-inflicted. Smoking, high blood pressure and being overweight are the top risks for early death, accounting for more than 1 million premature deaths each year, with physical inactivity, high blood sugar and alcohol use not far behind, according to an April study by the Harvard School of Public Health.

The price tag for obesity has soared to $147 billion a year, new government studies show, and smoking costs about $193 billion in medical expenses and lost productivity.

“To have hundreds of thousands of premature deaths caused by these modifiable risk factors is shocking," noted Goodarz Danaei, a co-author of the Harvard risk study.

Forcing the issues?
Such results, Danaei said, should force public health officials to consider whether they're looking at the right ways to influence better behavior.

To date, the answer appears to be no, said Joan Alker, co-executive director Georgetown University Health Policy Institute Center for Children and Families. One glaring failure is a 2006 West Virginia Medicaid experiment that aimed to increase personal responsibility by requiring patients to sign agreements promising to be healthy.

Under the plan, patients agreed to follow their doctors' advice and to generally aim to improve their health.

Those who signed up got enhanced health care including nutrition education and free stop-smoking and chemical dependency programs. Those who didn’t sign up got limited basic services.

Even so more than 90 percent of the participants failed even to sign the health agreement, let alone follow the advice. The bottom line was that children, who made up 85 percent of those enrolled, were penalized because of the actions of their parents.

“I don’t think it’s good to impose a stick approach, particularly on children,” said Alker, who analyzed the program two years later.

But some so-called “carrot” approaches, programs that offer incentives for healthful behaviors, don’t seem to work any better. A Florida Medicaid program that offers drug store points that patients can accumulate for keeping doctor's appointments or getting their kids immunized has failed to motivate meaningful change, Alker said.

Part of the problem is that many people may not be in a position to make healthful choices, Alker said. It can be cheaper to feed a family fast food than fresh vegetables, especially in areas where there are no supermarkets, for instance. A mother might miss a doctor’s appointment if she’s having transportation trouble. And everyone is subject to the pressures of a culture in which bad health behaviors are routinely glorified by advertisers.

“We just have to remind ourselves that individual choice is taking place in a social context,” she added.

Obese people, in particular, struggle with that context, said James Zervios, a spokesman for the Obesity Action Coalition in Tampa, Fla. At the same time they're surrounded by lavish depictions of fattening food, overweight people are blamed for skyrocketing health care costs.

"As much as society and the media likes to say, 'Back away from the table, don't eat the doughnut,' it's a lot harder than that," said Zervios.

Any health care overhaul plan needs to provide not only education about prevention, but ample treatment options for people who are already overweight, he said.

Is personal responsibility simply inconvenient?
That may be true, but there’s also something to be said for simply stepping up when it comes to one’s own health, noted Lisa Herrington, the woman who raised the issue on the public blog.

During last year's campaign, President Barack Obama said the success of health reform hinged on individual actions. "Preventative care works only if Americans take responsibility for their health and make the right decisions for their own lives — if they eat the right foods, stay active and stop smoking," Obama said in a statement.

But Herrington said she hasn't heard such comments since. “Is personal responsibility an inconvenient topic in the health care reform debate?” she asked.

“I find that people don’t think about the choices they’re making and how they impact the costs of health care down the road,” Herrington said. “Health care is never going to cost less until we control this other piece, until we get a hold on this personal responsibility piece.”

That’s a thought echoed by Steve Spady as he headed back into the emergency room where he sees 25 to 30 patients in a 12-hour shift.

“We should have compassion, and do have it, for the situation that many patients are in. The problem is what program is best to help them help themselves.”

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hsr0601

The runaway premium similar to the peak fuel price last year and left so many folks in despair insists on staying the course with the attitude 'unchanged', clearly this trend could bankrupt individual, business, and government. Now the government subsequently is tasked with these two main assignments, first, to address premium inflation, second, to expand coverage to all in urgent need.
In order to cover all and not to add to the deficit, the public option can not set the same rates of private market, rather, it needs to have the function to keep it in check in terms of inflation, too. Unfortunately, this 'unavoidable' direction is aggressively being accused by the runaway premium, citing government 'take-over' .
Under the circumstances the energy bill to determine human future and the other major issues is presently piled up, who wants to waste time making enemies ?, which also does not benefit the forthcoming election.
On the other hand, to make things worse, critics say the savings from the proposed public option is not enough to meet the revenue goal. Furthermore, on another hand, some say 'hands off' . Where do these No tax, No saving and the like intend to force this reform to go ? The conclusion by 'just-say-no' is no doubt. Ironically, the Deficit-sensitive groups have a distinctive common ground, they all have a Deficit-driven background out of question.

Of all choices, the best thing would be savings through efficiency. Considering the wasteful structure, the highest premium in the world, and the most expensive part of medicare, with the prevention / wellness program in place, an American style innovation, an 'outcome'-based payment founded upon IT system may be enough to save more than 50 billions per year (500 / decade), both 'improving quality' and removing the unnecessary procedures (as pay is dependent on patient's outcome). Young folks and advocates need to explain the notion of a pay for outcome agreement to the elderly misled by the disinformation.

Unlike private market, this public option includes large-scale investments, these large investments still does not get the fair score, instead seem to become a source of acute conflict, even so, this common sense-based program needs to develop further as early detection goes beyond monetary value.

In short, with the heartbreaking tears in mind, private market also needs change and should join together to complete this reform , as promised, if not, the runaway premium only has itself to blame. Job-based coverage (indirect payment), mandate code, and ample capital might be favorable to the private market. And It can be said that fair competition starts with fair market value.
Over time, supposedly, the public plan will concentrate more on basic, primary cares, and the private insurers will provide their clients with differentiated services.

Thank You !

  • 3 votes
#1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:57 AM EDT
Anniek

I say there should be a fee for those with kids or want to have kids why should those that don't have kids pay for all that stuff and those about to have kids eat up a lot of ins money. If you want to be fair then they need a big fee also.

  • 31 votes
#1.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:38 AM EDT
LastExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

I'll change my diet as soon as Pelosi & the Dumbocrats cancel their $550M for new jets which was 200M until they did a quickie revision as they walked out the doors to go on Recess. They added it to the Defense Spending Bills too to assure they'd get their pork planes and the Pentagon is not happy. Can't say I blame them one bit.

I think how far that money would go towards unemployment benefits just like this 3B for "clunkers" and where do they expect this money to come from? I hope the answer is out of their own retirement fund!!

  • 37 votes
#1.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:00 AM EDT
GK-298121

I hear you anniek! I'm tired of subsidizing other people's offspring with my taxes and in the workplace.

  • 39 votes
#1.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:04 AM EDT
LU-404506

If I was Gay I would be advocating to be tax exempt for money going to education or the military.

Last: The GOP also plan to use those planes. You didn't find out about the Jets because the GOP protested or Fox news released the information. It was the "liberal media" that reported the abuse.

Politicians get away with that crap because so many like yourself are obsessed with party politics.

If you don't have the common sense to eat healthy foods and get proper exercise then perhaps you don't make wise choices in general...which is your choice...but not my responsibility to pay for your irresponsible behavior.

  • 13 votes
#1.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:40 AM EDT
Liz-1105926

I hear you on the kids thing, but I would add that I, with two kids that hardly ever go to the doctor because they eat decently along with me and never get sick, pay for everyone that chooses to knock out 8 kids, or just more kids then me. My premiums are the same as theirs: "family premium" covers one kid or 10 kids. How's that fair? Life isn't always fair. I am in great shape and never go to the doctor, how often do you go? Maybe my taxes are subsidizing you in other ways. Why do my coworkers get smoke breaks but I don't get breaks? I do think that people should pay based on the amount of health care they use but that will never happen. One more thing; when you go on social security/medicare, MY kids will be paying the taxes to support it. Try to keep that in mind.

  • 8 votes
#1.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:42 AM EDT
counselortroi2

What these calls for "personal responsibility" ignore is that not all people are alike. You can be overweight without "overeating" if your genetic structure dictates a certain "set point" for your body size. Much of one's body size is predetermined by one's ancestors. Yes, we can watch what we eat, we can even starve ourselves, but for how long? At some point, you just get tired of starving and still not getting to a "normal" weight. If you are physically handicapped, exercise becomes almost impossible, in many cases.

There is no one size fits all approach. There are things that people can do, such as stopping smoking, that can be done "cold turkey", but eating is absolutely essential. You can't just stop eating, and if your genetic predisposition is to have a larger body, it doesn't take much to get there and maintain that weight. This is a factor that just doesn't get taken into account in the knee-jerk "it's your own fault" diatribes.

  • 17 votes
#1.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
Jen-s

I picked up smoking in college, and about two years later started feeling the health effects. So, I quit smoking cold turkey . Sadly, so far I haven't been able to quit eating (the cold turkey). I can't even go a whole day without putting something in my mouth! I blame you for any future health problems, Mr. Peanut Butter Sandwich.

/sarcasm used to highlight a major difference between smoking and eating

  • 11 votes
#1.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
sarah-1265910

I believe that if you do something for years which results in a cancer or someone else getting cancer- you should pay a higher insurance rate. Also the fact that Obama wants to give health coverage to all the US means that I, personally, can live without the fear of getting a cold. I am a college student however my parents insurance stopped covering me when I turned 20. I am also a diabetic. I take care of myself because there is no other choice. I cannot afford to go to the hospital. I also am a part time worker- because where I work is not offering full time to anybody. Now how is one supposed to pay hospital bills when one is only making about $200 a week? I am sorry I couldn't even comprehend this much less making it(what with rent, gas for car, electricity) I am already in the red by the time the week is over. I am so glad food stamps are available for people who work hard yet cannot pay for everything with a part time job. This allows me to get fresh fruit, vegetables, and whole wheat foods with which I would not be able to maintain my diabetes without. Life would be a lot easier for many of the younger and poorer generation if we had medical coverage for all. Just my opinion though- as I am sure some will disagree

  • 7 votes
#1.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
mabtle

Being a professional healthcare provider for over 40 years, I can see and feel the doctor's frustration. However, one thing that I have learned over the years isthat you can provide all the help you want to the patient but the patient has to WILLINGLY and ACTIVELY want to participate in an active healthcare plan for themselves. Because we have FREE WILL and consequently free choice, the only alternative we have to improve an individuals health status is to educate the patient. If we structured 24 hour primary care clinics alongside ER's and staffed them with Nurse Practictioners and PA's for assessment purposes, and basic primary and preventative care with teaching the focus we might make headway in improving healthcare status. The educational approach would require multi-disciplines i.e.social workers, nutritionists, pyschologists, etc. The current proposals for healthcare reform is not to improve healthcare status but to control the costs through government regulation of DISPENSING medical and healthcare to individuals based on decisions made by a 'HEALTH CHOICE COMMISSIONER' ( HR 3200 pg 42 ). The Doctor is correct there is NO health in this Bill only rationing of healthcare by controlling costs with Federal government mandates regulating who gets care, at what level of care is to be given, what doctors get paid. All these decisions will be made by a government committee ( HR 3200 pg 30 sec 123 ). Healthcare decisions should only be between you and your doctor AND ONLY YOU AND YOUR DOCTOR. Government will have direct real-time access to both your bank accounts and financial assests ( HR 3200 pgs 58, 59 ). Government will have access to your personal data - health, finances, private data ( HR 3200 pg 62 ). This bill is nothing about health and the American people. Doctors could write a better bill then this that would truly address the needs of the American people and still save money. Doctors know what is needed as they see this everyday. No to this BEAUCRATIC ( and SOCIALIST ) Bill. Yes, to the CLINICAL healthcare professionals as they care that is why a majority of them went into the profession. NO to Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer, Obama, Waxman, rangel, Dodd, the Progressive caucus, the black Caucus all who want to direct your healthcare from the CONGRESSIONAL halls and decide for your doctor what care you will or will NOT get. The money you save in health insurance costs ( after the healthcare imposed taxes ) can be applied to your funeral expenses. Nothing in life is free unless there are strings attached. Life is free, quality of life is free, when YOU GIVE UP YOUR RIGHT to CHOOSE, then you have lost your freedom and this bill (HR 3200 ) has a provision that states it is NOT severable meaning you can NOT GET RID if this impingement on your FREEDOM. At what cost are you willing to be ENSLAVED by government, to give up your FREEDOM?

  • 24 votes
#1.9 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
schwannomin

Maybe the answer is simply that we can no longer afford to be Americans. By Americans, I mean a person who drives 40 minutes to and from work, walks an average of 0.5 miles a day, federally subsidizes beef (and corn to feed the beef) such that McDs can feed a family of 4 for $10 while your local grocer can't do it for $20, all the while expecting - in fact, demanding - the tax payer pays his medical bills when he turns 65.

  • 17 votes
#1.10 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
scales67

It's ironic that so many of those who criticize people for being overweight drink heavily and/or use illegal drugs. There are those who maintain a weight that is within acceptable limits but do so by eating a terribly unbalanced diet. If one consumes small enough portions, it's possible to survive on cheeseburgers and fries while staying within weight guidelines. Then there are those who criticize the health habits of others but never exercise a day in their lives, and those who make fun of the fat kid out of the corner of their mouths while puffing on a cigarette. Overeating can be caused by some of the same problems that cause excessive drinking...stress and depression. There are very, VERY few people in this country who maintain a proper weight, exercise regularly, eat a healthy diet and have no vices such as drinking, smoking or using drugs. Perhaps it would be wise if everyone takes a good long look at his/her habits, both bad and good, before singling out overweight people as targets.

  • 14 votes
#1.11 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
Mister-Joe

I am both overweight and smoke (double scourge of society). My choices have not been the best in my life, but I also do not expect others to pay for my mistakes. But know that people do seek treatment for issues unrelated to smoking and weight.

I do not have a problem with paying a bit more for my healthcare - most people are right: Why should others pay for my poor choices! In turn, however, I do not want to pay for social programs that have no relevance to me personally. Quid pro quo.

I rarely seek treatment for anything related to my lifestyle habits. In fact, my medical bills all together, over nearly 30 years working, have not totaled the amount of premiums I've paid.

  • 16 votes
#1.12 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:28 AM EDT
schwannomin

Scales (ironic name):

I'm for increasing the insurance premiums on the overweight, the drinkers, and the drug abusers. I don't want to single out any particular group. There are already state taxes on alcohol and cigarettes (presumably the cigarette money is used to pay medicaid). Why not add a state or federal tax on McDs and other fatty foods to help pay for medicare? Or simply stop federally subsidizing the beef industry. Let our alleged free-market capitalism take the problem away.

  • 6 votes
#1.13 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:33 AM EDT
ROY WILSON-336103

To me, it would be very simple to identify and price some of the major "self-imposed" health problems, such as obesity and smoking and alcoholism and drug abuse.

Just make them pay a fine for coverage, and I'll bet you see some changes.

  • 3 votes
#1.14 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:47 AM EDT
Neg

BOHICA! I don't want any more Government in my life than there already is.

  • 10 votes
#1.15 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:59 AM EDT
schwannomin

There you go, neg! Let's lobby our congressmen to quit subsidizing the beef industry. Overnight your Big Mac will go from $3 to $8 and obesity will solve itself.

  • 9 votes
#1.16 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:05 PM EDT
troubled_american

Liz - One more thing; when you go on social security/medicare, MY kids will be paying the taxes to support it. Try to keep that in mind.

schwannomin -

in fact, demanding - the tax payer pays his medical bills when he turns 65.

Seniors are not demanding that you pay for their health-care. Seniors paid for their medicare via taxes matched by their employers their entire life. It the politicians had not raided the social security and medicare trust funds to pay for other social programs like medicaid over the years, medicare and social security would not be in trouble. So it is unfair to single out seniors, who paid for their care, unlike the illegal aliens and others who get treated for free.

The bottom line is health-care is the responsibility of the individual and not the government.

As to the article once again singling out smokers, the government taxes the hell out of tobacco products to pay for the increased medical costs, and now to provide insurance to kids. So once again, let's single out smokers to pay for everyone else in addition to themselves. The only proposal they have floated that would level the playing field is to tax sodas and other fattening sweets. At least it would spread the tax burden more fairly then it is now.

  • 8 votes
#1.17 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:13 PM EDT
fubar-874514

Let's also charge people that live in large metropolitan areas, there costs are higher, have more stress, crime, traffic accidents, work and commute take up more hours of the week.

Please add to the list of health effects of where you live. We may be able to fill 1300 pages with reasons to charge/tax the poor sap's that live in NYC and LA. Hey, there salaries are higher so charge them more!

  • 8 votes
#1.18 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
checkerbattery

Right on. Anyone who is old, plays sports, drives an old car, owns a swimming pool, has guns in the house or refuses to spend 5 hours per week in a nationally certified gym should have to pay more. Oh, and motorcycle riders. I'm tired of spending more because of the lifestyle choices these irresponsible people make.

  • 10 votes
#1.19 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:22 PM EDT
GOZO-unlimited

Our corporate/government has created a polluted environment, unhealthy homes, schools, workplace....stress....disease caused by big pharma's billion dollar brainwash, and disease producing food. How is it that the American people are responsible? Our corporate government needs to clean up its act before pointing fingers.

  • 10 votes
#1.20 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:48 PM EDT
Carlos Toadvine

I'm for increasing the insurance premiums on the overweight, the drinkers, and the drug abusers

That's hardly a level playing field. This debate is not about responsibly. Its about the power the health care dollar gives Washington. They don't want to muddy the water with responsibility.

  • 2 votes
#1.21 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:50 PM EDT
JEREMY-664722

may be able to fill 1300 pages..... easy. unhealthy, irresponsible, stupid people is natures way of population control. i'm 5'10, 180. i smoke a cigar on occasion, drink an average of maybe 10 mixed drinks and 12 beers a month. i work outside quite a bit, around my house and at work. we have home cooked meals(not out of a box or bag, from scratch). i take a vitamin everyday.i eat fast food maybe twice a month. and i haven't been to the doctor in almost two years and then it was just a check up.

No Gov't Health Care!!!! i'm lucky to have ins through my wife's employer. but it's not worth having for small stuff. i guess if some thing catastrophic happened it would, maybe, be worth the premiums? that is if they could'nt figure out how to turn it into a pre-existing condition.

everyone seems to overlook another cause of high cost.... hospitals charging $10 for bandaids, $5 for tylenol.....

  • 4 votes
#1.22 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:02 PM EDT
JulieRo

.

  • 1 vote
#1.23 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:03 PM EDT
JH-479998

How come nobody is is talking about my cute sister in the picture? She's single. Any takers? She comes with her own donuts.

Has anybody heard how much their health insurance payments are going to drop when we get Obamacare? Will we have to fill out a 20 page questionaire on our living habits to determine our monthly premium?

This whole thing is not being done right. It needs to be stopped. Talk to your representative (if they'll listen). STOP THIS NOW!!

  • 7 votes
#1.24 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:19 PM EDT
ahawkeye1

How about everyone just pays their own way so you won't have to stick your noses in any body's business? Medicare/aid are designed to help people who can't pay for themselves. If it's getting to the point where more and more people are without coverage, then why don't we fix the system we have instead of giving the government another benefit to bankrupt. Create more contemporary rules for insurers and everything will be just fine. You don't junk your car just because the breaks go bad, you fix the breaks and keep driving.

  • 6 votes
#1.25 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:20 PM EDT
ewent

ahawkeye1...For decades, the government has known there has been a very serious problem with the health care industry. It's private and for profit. Those two don't mix when you are dealing with life or death issues. Health saving accounts don't work. One single illness and emergency room treatment and your entire health savings account disappears. It's the cost of health care that's the problem. The cost includes too much profit. Why else do you think the CEO of HealthCare South ended up in court?

  • 5 votes
#1.26 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:38 PM EDT
riggznit

I am a smoker and believe this to be my habit and not others.

I think you do go down a slippery slope trying to evaluate premiums based on lifestyle.

Why not force classes that cost additional personal funds that educate and help those with bad habits. One on one of course, to insure personal privacy. If you want to keep your medical insurance you need to attend these self help courses.

I do hope Doctors and Nurses will become more vocal as this legislation progresses. What do law makers know about health care? Health Care is Patients Doctors and Nurses plus facilities.

I will add what does health insurance have to do with health Care? Just a means to make a middle man profit without breaking a sweat.

    #1.27 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:03 PM EDT
    JH-479998

    ewent - If our current system is so bad, and I will admit it is not perfect, why are we being told that we can continue with what we have and there will be no changes? Somebody is not telling the truth.

    If the current system is going to bankrupt us why allow it to continue??????

    Bunch of liars!!!!

    • 3 votes
    #1.28 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:08 PM EDT
    Damu Dame

    ewent, I think everyone agrees about that but do you think the government really cares about you or me? NO they care about the profit to be made! And by the time Americans realized what's happened it will be too late....And once the money starts to run out then what? If you have more taking out than putting in how will it ever work? And if I were a dr I would charge what they are today too...people sue over the dumbest stuff and expect to get "PAID" and med school isnt exactly cheap either...know any doctors? I know alot and they all say the same things.....have to pay back school and make sure I have insurance so if some lazy get rich quick sceme comes to me I will be covered. I think everyone agrees that their needs to be a change in health care but government ran healthcare is not the way to go.

    • 4 votes
    #1.29 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:08 PM EDT
    justice fleeting

    Charge more for smokers, obesity, soda drinkers, red meat eaters. What next, Federal decisions for health care based on hereditary factors and genes. America, lets stop and think on these issues before we go half-cocked and make a horrible decision.

    • 9 votes
    #1.30 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:15 PM EDT
    tony-268769

    How about the president acting more "responsibly" by not spending this country out of house and home and while he's at it...not expecting taxpayers to believe his tripe that health care will be vastly improved, 47 million more people will be covered, and this will all cost us less money.

    Sane mines would argue that those three things cannot happen and that our government is not really the type of smooth running organization that is capable of making it happen successfully.

    • 5 votes
    #1.31 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
    oldefarte

    I'm a smoker (given that I started smoking in and because of the Military, I'm wondering if maybe I shouldn't declare it a "disability" and apply for benefits). Right now, I pay as much as $6.00/pack, of which less than $1.50 actually "buys" the cigarettes. The remainder is all tax, a substantial portion of which is a state tax designed to pay for healthcare for the poor. SO, frankly, I would personally be overjoyed to pay a "healthcare premium" or "surtax" or "user fee" to cover the cost of my vile smoking habit, provided, of course, that all those folks for whom my taxes already pay for healthcare will start standing on their own two feet and I can go back to paying a couple bucks a pack for cigarettes.

    I do find it amusing, however, that, when the same rationale is applied to fat people, whose vile eating habit costs the nation a lot more than my puffing does, it's suddenly perceived as "unfair". Go for it, folks. Tax 'em by the pound. While you're at it, make them eat their greasy cheeseburgers outside in designated "Fat Butt" areas so that I won't be offended by the smell and sight! Of course, we should have similar rules for people who drink to excess, or who take illicit or harmful drugs, and even for those who engage in risky and/or unprotected sex, but I'm trying to imagine what a "Designated Quickie" area would look like.

    But that would make too much sense and would actually be fair. Can't have that in a country where everyone feels entitled to their vices at the expense of the rest.

    • 8 votes
    #1.32 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
    12345-908903

    We are headed down a very slippery slope when we start penalizing certain groups of people. For one thing, you are only targeting those people whose SINS you can readily observe (i.e. smoke or fat) and you neglect to penalize those who have a lot of dirty little secrets that affect their health but which you won't uncover without specific blood/urine tests etc. Better to take the high road and reward people who can document their activity levels, food intake, etc. and who never see a doctor. But of course you cannot do that either because how will you know if they are actually healthy? Remember Jim Fixx who swore by running every single day, supposedly in tip top shape but who dropped dead on his daily run? Take that into account you whining, money grubbing a-holes. If you are going to start denying coverage to people who don't fit your notion of what is fit and proper (i.e. as in moralizing), you may as well just not cover anybody since the end result will be the same. Here's a class of health insurance you can exclude for starters: pregnancy & child birth. Being pregnant and giving birth are not illnesses (except as in complications of child birth that would be covered anyway) and giving those conditions coverage simply amounts to paying people to have children at the expense of all policy holders. Ditto with birth control and viagra type products. Everyone has to foot the bill for that even though they have no interest whatsoever in any of those products.

    • 5 votes
    #1.33 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:24 PM EDT
    schwannomin

    It just costs too much money to live the way many - but not most - Americans choose to live. I haven't seen anyone refute the fact that the beef and dairy industries are federally subsidized enterprises that are able to unnaturally provide high, high, HIGH calorie foods for a tiny fraction of the cost of production. It is a fact that needs to change. No more $3 quarter pounders!

    If the subsidies are allowed to just die, I guarantee this country's obese population will start dropping in numbers rather than rising. On the flipside, if these subsidies continue and obesity figures continue to soar, medicare will go bankrupt during the next recession whether that's in 5 years or 10 or 15. Then the solution to our cost problems will be simple to find. Medicare payments will dry up, hospitals will go out of business, and the average life expectancy will begin its U-turn.

    I'm in my early 30's. As I watch these old folks scream at their representatives, I realize they couldn't care less if Medicare is around for the next generation.

    • 3 votes
    #1.34 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:29 PM EDT
    oldefarte

    Anniek (Msg. #1.1), I'd TOTALLY agree with you about having to subsidize "kids", save for one thing - namely that you were once a kid yourself and got subsidized. Others paid for your education. Others made sure that you got vaccinations and subsidized lunches. So, I now view your desire to NOT pay for those things for the current crop of kids as "welching" on the deal. Kindly return, forthwith, all public moneys (with interest) expended on you as a child, then we can talk about your proposal.

    • 6 votes
    #1.35 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
    MTpolitico

    The idea of Personal responsibility won't fly with the democrats. The trial lawyers won't stand for it. You see, theres not a profit in personal responsibility. You have to have a victim and somebody to blame if you're going to file a law suit.

    • 5 votes
    #1.36 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
    Micha'el

    Want to fix Health Care?

    End the Nazi eugenics program of vaccination

    End the Nazi eugenics program of flouridating the water supply

    End the Nazi eugenics program of genetically modified food

    When we end the poisons they inject into our bloodstream, end the poisons they put in our drink, and end the poisons they put in the food, we will all be healthy.

    People need to wake up to the fact that these are all population control agendas designed to disable and sterilize the population.

    • 4 votes
    #1.37 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:39 PM EDT
    Neg

    oldefarte, I got a real kick out of your post #1.32!

    • 2 votes
    #1.38 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:39 PM EDT
    great white hunter

    So if I understand what this article says, there should be a tax on anything and everything that may ever harm me because it may hurt me and I may need to use the health insurance that I already paid for????

    I think I need to drink some more koolaid......

    • 3 votes
    #1.39 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:44 PM EDT
    anti-trust proponent

    Stop blaming the illegals for our rising healthcare costs. This doctor cited in this story is correct. It is the IRRESPONSIBILITY of each of us for our own healthcare, or lack thereof, that has caused a great deal of the increases in costs. I too have worked in the healthcare industry for over 16 years as a licensed massage therapist. I have spent many hours working with people on educating themselves on THEIR responsibility for their own health. Healthcare providers cannot force anyone to change their bad health habits, nor can putting penalties on their insurance. The best thing to do is to continue to raise the taxes on alcohol and tobacco products until people can no longer afford to waste their money on those products. And yes, we should eliminate the farm subsidies (I've always felt that way and I grew up on a farm.)

    This link gives you a good idea of where these rising costs come from:

    http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006-12-15/us/illegal_immigrants_not_burden_health_care.htm

    • 1 vote
    #1.40 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:46 PM EDT
    scarab333

    The only thing missing from the health care debate is TORT reform. Until the libs are ready to limit all lawsuits and eliminate the frivolous suits, they are not being honest about wanting to control costs. They really need to be made to STFU and go away.

    • 3 votes
    #1.41 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:46 PM EDT
    Laura-261470

    Personally, I see both sides of the argument: People who do drugs, eat junk, smoke, go parachuting, etc., do add a lot to total health care costs. BUT some of these behaviors are encouraged by our environment. I do think the govt should stop subsidizing corn (to get all that corn syrup out of our food) and start subsidizing healthy food, like fresh vegetables. It IS much cheaper to eat at McDonald's than cook healthy food for yourself. I hate to say it, but if gas prices were higher, people would change their behaviors and use public transportation or walk/bike. Of course, if corporations would just be a little more responsible (like not advertising sugared cereal to children, or, god forbid, taking chemicals and corn syrup out of their products) it would really help people make healthier choices.

    Q: Do the benefits of exercising (lower BP, better weight, etc.) outweigh the costs of injuries? I think they probably do, since the injuries are usually temporary, while heart conditions, diabetes, etc., need to be treated for years.

    • 2 votes
    #1.42 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:47 PM EDT
    justice fleeting

    If the "naughty people" as we define them are to be charged more for health insurance, then we have to expand the naughty factor attributes to include those people that are anorexic or bulimians, over exercisers that have heart attacks, bad feet and legs, bone fractures. Then there are the ones that simply watch too much TV, or play video games. Where the heck does it end. Who gets to decide what is bad and what is good.

    • 5 votes
    #1.43 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
    ClintHorace

    That's exactly right "great white hunter".

    But of course what is and isn't considered harmful is completely decided by government. Do you people honestly think they care about the health of the American citizen?

    This is all about money and power. Nothing else.

    • 3 votes
    #1.44 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
    oldefarte

    Thanks, Neg (Msg. #1.38), but I now see that I'm not as innocent as I thought. Seems that Laura (Msg. #1.42) is now after skydivers, too. Then it will be SCUBA divers. Pretty soon, I won't have any sports left by which to keep fit and then they'll have to tax me for that, too.

    Sheesh, just can't win. Maybe I'll have to look into "unprotected sex" - I hear it burns calories...

    • 1 vote
    #1.45 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:56 PM EDT
    Knight Who Says Nee

    So, the gov't wants to decide what I am suppose to ingest into my body. I say to HELL with them and while you're at it pass me another chocolate covered donut, and they can kiss my big fat a-r-s-e while I'm doing it!

    • 5 votes
    #1.46 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
    willowbrook

    There's also the question of where to draw the line on personal responsibility. If smoking and obesity can be fined, and motorcycle riders need to pay higher insurance rates, it opens the door to penalizing other preventable risks. Could the same logic be applied to people who have unprotected sex and turn up with a disease? Those who eat their beef on the rare side despite warnings about E. coli contamination?

    They ALREADY make you pay more if you are overweight, or a smoker, or fly a plane (don't know about motorcycles.) This is nothing new. It does open the question of how far will we let this go? Think hard...........

      #1.47 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
      Knight Who Says Nee

      Anit-Trust, you can not convince me and other rational Americans that "illegal" immigrants are not a drain on our health care system. I read your very leftist propaganda link and it's full of the usual left-wing drivel. What part of "illegal" do you people not get? I don't care if we're spending only one penny on "illegal" healthcare. The point is, we should spending ZERO on "illegal" immigrants. Ship them back to the crap country they came from and let that country deal with them. You bleeding hearts are just totally insane? If you're so taken in by these "illegals" then feel free to let the gov't dig it's grubby hands in YOUR pockets. I want those Washington bureaucrats as far away from my bank account as possible.

      • 8 votes
      #1.48 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
      Dawn-296574

      anti-trust

      Okay, you're stating that illegal immigrants are healthy young working people. There is not ONE mention of the women that 'pop' out 6 or 7 children on our dime. Yes, those children are falsely named American Citizens (misuse of Amendment 14) but they would not be here unless there was a illegal standing (or lying, as the case may be) there breeding like a puppy waiting for us to pay for their health, schooling, food, etc. THOSE children should rightfully be considered in the cost of illegal immigration.

      • 3 votes
      #1.49 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
      The Colonel-964761

      Now this has to be the mosts asinine and ridiculous thing I've ever heard to try and defend this bill:

      “We can’t allow ‘personal responsibility,’ in quotes, to become a polite way of saying, ‘You’re on your own, Mac,’” Gould said. “When kids don’t have a way to safely bike or walk to school because there are no sidewalks, that’s not personal responsibility.”

      What the heII do sidewalks have to do with personal responsibility in your health choices? Tell you what. Just use part of the $787 billion in stimulus money to build them a damn sidewalk and leave my health care alone.

      • 6 votes
      #1.50 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
      ClintHorace

      Maybe we should all live in monitored plastic bubbles and have our food administered intravenously, thereby assuring the best care, and controlling a myriad of personal liberties.....I mean, liberating a myriad of personal controls.

      • 4 votes
      #1.51 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:11 PM EDT
      upanddownboston

      Anniek, I agree with everything you say up until "I Say". Actually anyone with a family and kids pay a higher premium on their health plans. It is more expensive then individual plans as it should. Please educate yourself before you make a fool of yourself on a national scale.

      "I say there should be a fee for those with kids or want to have kids why should those that don't have kids pay for all that stuff and those about to have kids eat up a lot of ins money. If you want to be fair then they need a big fee also."

        #1.52 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
        ROY WILSON-336103

        troubled_american "If the politicians had not raided the social security and medicare trust funds to pay for other social programs like medicaid over the years, medicare and social security would not be in trouble."

        You are correct. I did an analysis of the Social Security "Trust" Fund, and the total contributions for an average $40,000 per year wage earner over his working career (to age 67), with compounded interest (3%) would amount to over $440,000, and their benefit would be about $16,800 per year. THEY WOULD HAVE TO LIVE TO AGE 120 TO USE UP THEIR BENEFITS. Since the average person only lives to about age 75, they only get to use up about 15% of their benefits, and the government keeps the other 85%.

        Don't try to blame this on those who worked (and contributed) all of their lives, because they are being short-changed far more than anyone else.

        The problem is that the government has "borrowed" those trust funds and spent them, replacing them with IOU's and doesn't have the money to pay them back.

        If those funds were invested in an annuity, or similar program, the average worker would get REAL benefit payments of about $50,000 per year.

        • 6 votes
        #1.53 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:14 PM EDT
        Persevere

        Citizens -

        Read the article at least twice and other material on this very subject, how to structure the “public option” national health care plan. In my option it is not unreasonable to have the individuals pointed out in the article for to pay a premium, means tested, for their unhealthy like styles.

        But, there are predispositions for all kinds of conditions; the most obvious is being overweight according to some arbitrary standard that has bee set by whom? Is it fair for someone to pay more for being “overweight” when does overweight become obesity? How can you exercise if you have diabetes and your skin on the sloes of your feet are cracked and you suffer from painful lesions? Having eight kids or more does not seem a reasonable expense for the taxpayer to pay for, but is it the kid’s fault? Do we just let these kids suffer and die? I think maybe forced sterilization of both or however many parents are involved is not out of the question. But, do these people have the means to provide and pay premium for inclusion in a health plan, if so why should they be forced into sterilization?

        It is obvious that a fair amount of work and research needs to be done, lets not forget means testing, we can charge the poor but if you don’t have a dollar how can they pay? I have seen a fair amount of drug takers, and have known some that take meth or crack, as I know the terms to be. How do we deal with these “out of control’ and usually very low intelligent people?

        Yes, a lot of work has to be done, but the country cannot wait any longer for a national health plan. Remember England started their plan in 1947; it has not wrecked the country.

        We have the highest paid doctors in the world that have no more expertise than their counter parts in other countries. They are the highest paid because the political machine (congress, both houses) are bought and paid for. The whole health industry is ripping off the government, that is the taxpayers, and we the stupid have allowed this fiasco to occur.

        Greed, the glorification of money drives the health providers, not all doctors, there are a very few that are still idealistic and virtual saints in this environment. I did not see a cap proposed on the fee’s doctor’s charge, why not? My wife had to go to the local hospital for a cut on her hand; she needed four stitches, total cost $410 for emergency room. We waited like five hours to get in. Four stitches mind you. That took all of about twenty minutes once we were allowed to see a doctor.

        But, we have to do something now, economically we can not compete with other countries when their corporations have the medical need so of their employees subsidized by a national health plan, and the system is ready to collapse plus the system as it is now will bankrupt the country in not so many from now.

        Lets act now and fix and mend as we go along, and in the mean time throw out the bought and paid for politicians that still want to have the big health insurance corporations get filthy rich and richer on the death and destruction of the American people.

        • 2 votes
        #1.54 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:35 PM EDT
        The Colonel-964761

        Now this is amazing. I hadn't even heard about this and apparently it was said by Chavez a month ago:

        "Hey, Obama has just nationalized nothing more and nothing less than General Motors. Comrade Obama! Fidel, careful or we are going to end up to his right," Chavez joked on a live television broadcast.

        So now Chavez is saying that Obama is even more left than HE is! LOL!

        • 3 votes
        #1.55 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:37 PM EDT
        Tom-286396

        "Personal responsibility" for controlling diet sounds good in theory, but let's think a bit and be practical here: it would work just as well as "sexual abstinence" for teens.

        In other words....it WON'T work.

        Don't agree? Think about how many illegimate babies are born every year. Think health care is costly? Then think about the cost involved to care for and raise a child.

        • 2 votes
        #1.56 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:44 PM EDT
        Zsazsa-1130837

        I agree w/ you, Mabtle. Well said.

        • 1 vote
        #1.57 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
        Svenolafson

        The problem with healthcare costs is insurers are required, by federal and state mandates, to cover almost everything under the sun. A mandate free option should be available. You buy the base plan and then have an opportunity to "buy up" additional coverages. Trust me. If we get nationalized healthcare that base plan will look pretty darn good.

        One last comment I'd like to make. All of those bashers out there of private health insurance companies need to do a little research before they spout off on something they know nothing about. Health insurance was a private sector creation. It's rapid expansion was due, in large part, to wage freezes during WWII. Since you couldn't offer higher wages to attract workers other "benefits" needed to be offered. One of these benefits was health insurance. Think about this. If the private sector had never come up with it think of all the people that would have died or never born. Think of all the people that would have gone bankrupt. You may never have been born. It's easy to bash the insurance companies and drug manufacturers. "Big insurance" or "Big Pharma" like it's the latest fad. Just cause you are a parrot regurgitating the latest talking point. Do yourself a favor and think for yourself.

        • 4 votes
        #1.58 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:53 PM EDT
        Mi6-1266735

        Some health care problems are caused by self-inflicted behavior, and some are caused by physiological reasons that cannot be fully controlled by behavior. Taxing or imposing higher rates across the board is unjust. I am considered overweight (even by my own standards). I am 5'2" and weight 195 pounds. I eat 6 small meals of healthful vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and proteins totalling approximately 1000 calories a day (I eat until I am comfortably full). I do eat a cookie and/or treat 2 times a week (approximately 200-300 calories), and I have 1/2 of a canned soda one day a week. I exercise 1 hour a day 4 to 5 days a week (cardio and strength training), I walk a minimum of 30-45 minutes every day. I do not drink. I do not smoke (I have asthma). I am insulin resistant. I seldom overeat.

        Weight is not just a function of calories,(or "pushing away" from the table); and exercise. I maintain a healthy lifestyle because before I did I had hard to control asthma, but found that exercise and healthy eating improved my asthma, though doing little for my weight. I am healthy but obese. I don't believe that "taxing" or charging higher premiums across the board for everyone who is obese is just.

        I do believe that something needs to be done regarding health insurance. I think everyone should have access to basic health care. I don't know that health insurance is the answer though. A healthcare system based on profit and "the market" can not really meet the needs of eveyone. Those with lower incomes will always suffer the most.

        Health insurance in its current form is full of idiocy. Several years ago I found 1 medication that controlled my asthma, but the insurance company wouldn't cover the cost. It wasn't in their approved formularies. I had to take 3 types of medications to control my asthma as well. The insurance company would not cover the medication because they did not have a contract with the pharmaceutical company that made the medication that worked best for me. So because of a decision based on an agreement between two profit driven groups I had to take MORE medication than was necessary. My doctor and I did not make my healthcare decision, the insurance company (who is trying to make profit) made it for us.

        One last thought, insurance is actually legitimized gambling. The insured is betting "i'm going to get sick"; the insurance company is betting "you won't get sick (enough to meet our requirements for payout)." Additionally there are so many "rules" regarding what is covered and how much is covered, even with insurance a lot of people cannot afford to go to the doctor. Insurance (in its current profit driven form) is not the answer.

          #1.59 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:02 PM EDT
          ClintHorace

          Are you saying WE actually know what's best for US?

          Nah, that can't be!

          The government spends billions of dollars every year making sure we don't do anything foolish.

          Surely they wouldn't spend all that money if it weren't necessary.

          I think we should just go along with everything they say right away, and then just fix and mend as we go along!

          Oops! I think I may have stolen part of one of Obama's speeches.

          • 2 votes
          #1.60 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:09 PM EDT
          Fred G. from N.C.

          Funny I saw the mention of Motorcycles as I like both forms of two wheelers (motorized and foot powered).If all the self important jack offs in their SUVs would hang up the phone and drive I'd bet motorcycle injury rates would plummit.I don't notice a whole lot of fat folks riding.While I think the subject of personal responsibilty should be brought up,I also think illegal immigration and tort reform need to enter the mix,two items that never seem to make the discussion.

          • 1 vote
          #1.61 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
          Karen in Los Angeles

          I definitely am not interested in footing the bill for fat pigs, smokers and families with children.

          I also worked extremely hard and paid good money for my education so that I would land a job with pension and health insurance.

          While I am paying on student loans until I die because of my choices in life, why should I have to pay for other people who f'd up just as bad, but they are getting the government to pay?

          • 1 vote
          #1.62 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:15 PM EDT
          levantase

          Health care reform will never happen in our lifetimes. Never. It doesn't matter who is president, it will not happen. Health care insurers are huge, with limitless money for lobbying efforts and too many Congress people in their pocket. Pharmaceuticals are huge with tons of money for paying off even more Congress people. Suck it up folks, we will look like Czarist Russia in a few more years.

          Currently, one-sixth of our population doesn't have health insurance. We will have to wait and continue dying until the figure is about one-half before any kind of measure is taken, and by then, China will own us.

            #1.63 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:16 PM EDT
            schwannomin

            Once again, we don't have enough predators. If lions were waiting for you when you brought home that Big Mac, I bet you'd think twice before buying it.

            Some say releasing lions into our cities would be immoral and dangerous. I say it could solve our health care problems. Why should I have to pay for you just because you can't outrun a lion?

            • 2 votes
            #1.64 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:17 PM EDT
            CBWY777Deleted
            MH-519826

            I totally agree - an even better idea would be selective breeding.

              #1.66 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:38 PM EDT
              thturd

              Thre are plenty of predators on the vine. Look around you, they will pound on you whenever, and whatever. There are plenty of bogus post about not wanting to be involved with others, or being completely self relient. ALL BOGUS.

              That is right, ALL BOGUS, becaus it will not happen. The people claiming for self reliance already used social money or tax dollars. Who do you think is taking care your parents, your grand parents, your soldiers who are sick or wounded defending our country... You guys are a bunch self centered SOBs.

              The idiots who are saying that they are subsidizing children. Let me see;
              1. You obviously were a child at one time, and most likely used some sort of social service such as school. You obviously skipped classes.
              2. We need children, not simply out of our biological needs, and ego needs. Our socienty need them too. The children are the ones who will come of age to help pay tax and pay for your health care.
              3. If you doubt what I am saying, go check out Japan and other countries, whose elderly is now greater than that of workers.
              4. Imagine this, if there is no medicare, then your children will have to care for you when you exit the labor force. If you require more attention (compeletely dependant), then your children will need to spend more time with you. That means one will need to be with you. That take them away from labor force, which create more burden on their family and their children.
              5. So at what point are you self centered SOB willing to MOOCH off your children? If you don't have children then should you be terminiated after leaving labor force?

              Please think of the consequenses of what you are suggeting.

              • 1 vote
              #1.67 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:42 PM EDT
              CBWY777Deleted
              fulton1212

              The same government that now wants to charge you more because you are addicted to tobacco is the same government that for years , subsidized the tobacco industry . The FDA consistently allows known cancer causing chemicals to be used in our foods , hygene products etc. The FDA knowingly allows food additives that increase our appetites and contribute to obesity . This same government that has shown absolutely no concern for their citizens with regard to the pills they allow to be shoved down our throats by pharm. companys while they rake in a 3000% profit for them . This is who we are being asked to give control of our healthcare too ? unbelievable

              • 1 vote
              #1.69 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:17 PM EDT
              moonstream1Deleted
              levantase

              Prove it, Moonstream. A LOT OF SCREAMING, no proof.

              Where are the sources of your information.

              And rampant unregulated capitalism is in not responsible in the least for the problems on wall street, companies leaving overseas, the real estate bubble and the bubble you see through.

              • 1 vote
              #1.71 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:59 PM EDT
              raisin obama

              Get real people, not a chance that accountability for lifestyle choices will happen.

              Unless you get it passed while Obama is sneaking a smoke..ha

              Put our legislatures on the same health care plan, no matter what version we wind up with.

              Government health care? Look at VA, there is your government health care plan model, and it sucks badly.

              • 2 votes
              #1.72 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:05 PM EDT
              choochoo-1167113

              Hey! What about all of those freebee meals consumed by the 3 million federal employees and all of the people they entertain, have at committee meetings, advisory groups, etc.? We're talking catered lunches, snacks, hotel dinners, etc. Does anyone have an idea of how much money it all adds up to? Quite a bit, I bet. Oh, and let's not forget the martinis. It's not so healthy and WE PAY FOR IT! And, talking about unhealthy habits of politicians, let's not forget the love affairs of senators and representatives. Do we end up paying for the family values guy's medical treatment for sexually transmitted diseases?

                #1.73 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:19 PM EDT
                EvolutionQuest

                We criticize smokers and obese but is it fair? What is truly healthy living, because it seems many have different opinions. Look at George Burns who lived to be almost 100 years old. He smoked, ate steak, and had a so called unhealthy standard of living. Some people are overweight no by choice but due to other reasons. Maybe they got in an accident and can no longer move around as much causing them to gain weight. Maybe their life is so stressful because of work or home life causing them to gain weight. Or maybe its a thyroid or some other genetic reason causing them to be overweight. If we are going to judge smokers (which I do not do) and obese then we must criticize everything we do for the cause of health. Maybe it is not healthy to have more than one child becaues the cost on society is to much. Maybe its not good to drive motorcycles, skydive, play sports, and so forth because someone could get hurt causing extended costs on our health insurance.

                Lets be real here. The poor get the short end of the stick because no one wants to flip the bill to stay healthy and educated, and the rich get screwed because the money they so rightfully earned gets taxed to pay for everyone else, and the middle income ultimately pays the price for both the rich and poor.

                Universal Health Care is a joke because Corporate America and Congress or going to put enough loopholes in place to dismantle it. It makes for good politics to say we should have Universal Health Care, but in reality no one wins. Truly if we want to resolve some issues lets set back costs. Why does it cost $4 for an asprin in a hospital when someone can go out to a grocery store and get it for pennies? Why do we allow rediculous lawsuits by people because their doctor didn't tell them their baby had 6 toes instead of 5.

                We are a society who has become to judgemental of others and forget to judge ourselves in all things. What is healthy today may not be healthy tomorrow. The medical community is not that good to truly know what is right or wrong for us. They can only make certain scientific judgement based on a group of individuals in a study. The hope is the study covers most people, but in reality what is to say those 10 people truly represent our society. Maybe they got a bad batch!

                • 1 vote
                #1.74 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:53 PM EDT
                choochoo-1167113

                Hey, oldefarte! You think that overweight people and many others should pay extra for their bad habits (although the "bad habits" do not necessarily cause the health conditions). So, why not penalize the worst offenders of all- the bloated ego syndrome sufferers? They can be easily identified (they can't control their mouths or keyboards) and are the cause of most personal and public problems. In fact, why not just throw them in jail? LOL

                  #1.75 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:32 PM EDT
                  choochoo-1167113

                  EvolutionQuest, please don't try to pass off ASSumptions as facts. You must have just landed on a spaceship. Your ideas are the strangest I've heard in a very long time.

                    #1.76 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:42 PM EDT
                    Neg

                    oldefarte, if you're still out here.

                    ""Sheesh, just can't win. Maybe I'll have to look into "unprotected sex" - I hear it burns calories..."

                    Nah, just burns!

                    ClintHorace, still like your "stripper" name!

                      #1.77 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:45 PM EDT
                      bigprong

                      I am 55 and have no health insurance because I work several part-time jobs (no full-time ones available right now!) I just need to stay healthy for 10 years 'til I can get on Medicare. I have quit drinking & drugging (25 yrs), smoking (3 yrs), unprotected sex (all sex, to be honest) and cut way down on caffeine, sugar & meat (too expensive, anyway!).

                      If I get sick and can't work, what happens? You'd better hope I stay healthy OR we get some reform, because otherwise you will be paying my ER and Medicaid costs. Face it, the status quo sucks. The insurance and drug companies are bleeding us dry, and only the young, healthy, and rich people who don't NEED insurance have it.     

                        #1.78 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:19 PM EDT
                        bigprong

                        And by the way, the only Americans getting halfway-decent care (and I do mean HALFWAY-decent) without paying ASTRONOMICAL premiums right now (my last full-time employer was paying over $400 a month for my crappy Kaiser insurance plan with NO annual physical or preventive care and massive co-pays on everything!) are Medicare and VA clients and FEDERAL EMPLOYEES. Yes, that means SINGLE PAYER. That is SOCIALIZED MEDICINE according to the right wing but it is the ONLY THING that's WORKING worth a @#$%^&*()_+.

                        • 1 vote
                        #1.79 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:37 PM EDT
                        scales67

                        Two comments that are a little off track but haven't been mentioned to any great extent. The first comment...yes, a major reason that health care costs have grown so rapidly is related to malpractice insurance. If attorneys and plaintiffs were not awarded ridiculously high amounts, perhaps there would not be the rush to sue every time that a minor error occurs (and no, I'm not referring to amputating the wrong limb as a minor error). Malpractice insurance premiums for doctors, hospitals and other health care professionals are out the roof due to trivial lawsuits. Who ultimately pays? We the consumer. Who ultimately comes out ahead? The attorneys who file and pursue the lawsuits.

                        The second comment...people don't realize the effect that constant bombardment with food commercials has on the subconscious. Try keeping a record of the percentage of food commercials that are broadcast during a one hour prime time show. It's staggering. It's all about eat, eat, EAT! As an earlier poster commented, no one has to drink or smoke, but everyone has to eat to survive. Toss in a little stress or depression along with the food ads and it becomes very difficult for most people to control their consumption. Cigarette ads have been banded from TV, as have ads for hard liquor. Maybe the government should spend some of the money that is being thrown away on stimulus packages and farm subsidies on ads for healthy foods, proper nutrition, exercise, etc., to counteract the relentless ads from McDonald's, KFC, Poptarts, etc.

                        • 1 vote
                        #1.80 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:49 PM EDT
                        choochoo-1167113

                        troubled_american: "illegal aliens . . . get health care for free..."??? Where did you get such silly drivel? That sounds like utter nonsense to me.

                          #1.81 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:45 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          Yuengling

                          Has any non-puritanical, non-hysterical research been done on what the real cost to society is if everyone lives the "healthy" lifestyle until they are say, 95 years old? According to these articles the smokers and the obese will be bowing out early. The "healthy" will stick around longer and cost money anyway. My point is--- it's not a money issue. It is a taking-care-of-people issue. Not everything in life is cost effective.

                          • 15 votes
                          #2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:36 AM EDT
                          schwannomin

                          The obese do cost more. They may die earlier, but they definitely cost more while they're here and their cost is rising.

                          Obesity-related conditions now account for 9.1 percent of all medical spending, up from 6.5 percent in 1998, the study concluded.

                          http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32170526/ns/health-health_care/

                          • 2 votes
                          #2.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:26 AM EDT
                          Hopeful American

                          And smokers cost more. And drinker's cost more. And people that drive too fast cost more. And motorcycle riders cost more. And people that don't use their seatbelts cost more. And people who let little problems become chronic cost more. Hell, Obama smokes - kind of hypocritical don't you think? Trying to shove government health care down our throats while he puffs away on his Cools!

                          People are human and will act as such! The great equalizer is that in the end it balances out. The less physically healthy will statistically die younger - so fewer years of health care. But the more physically healthy will statistically live longer, costing in the end due to mind and cognitive medical costs (dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc.)

                          And bottom line, and the sad truth about this is that Obama and his merry men don't give a crap about the health of Americans, they only want control! They are wannabe dictators - and they don't care about Americans at all!!

                          • 8 votes
                          #2.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:20 PM EDT
                          checkerbattery

                          The studies have been done:

                          A 1997 study in The New England Journal of Medicine found that total medical spending actually would go up if everyone stopped smoking. Smokers also collect less from Social Security.

                          See this link. Don't let them fool you - this has nothing to do with money. This is about controlling your lifestyle choices because you won't. And if you won't then the government has to. It's really that simple.

                          • 6 votes
                          #2.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:28 PM EDT
                          Jen-s

                          Obesity has related health care costs, but so does living to an advanced age.

                          Consider the obese person that suffers from weight related health costs, versus the healthy individual whose costs are applied to the system for an additional 20 years. You're just trading one set of expenses for another.

                          Now, if you want to compare quality of life differences, I'd agree that it's better to be healthy than fat.

                          Conclusions

                          Although effective obesity prevention leads to a decrease in costs of obesity-related diseases, this decrease is offset by cost increases due to diseases unrelated to obesity in life-years gained. Obesity prevention may be an important and cost-effective way of improving public health, but it is not a cure for increasing health expenditures

                          Lifetime Medical Costs of Obesity: Prevention No Cure for Increasing Health Expenditure; PLoSMedicine

                          • 2 votes
                          #2.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:51 PM EDT
                          theclansman

                          Checkerbattery,

                          I'm guessing you were a communist in a former life.

                          • 1 vote
                          #2.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:58 PM EDT
                          Carlos Toadvine

                          it's not a money issue. It is a taking-care-of-people issue. Not everything in life is cost effective.

                          An interesting but rather naive idea. I would maintain that the potential contribution to society will someday be an issue, not right away it's too controversial. It will happen later when the attention is focused on something else. At that point who will you question, the doctor that works for the government? The procedures just won't be offered and it will be the way things are. This idea this is some humanitarian effort to help the most vulnerable in society is a nice spin but not viable in a country the size of the United States. There is a quality of life debate and a debate about the cost benefit of providing benefits to patients will little chance of living 5 or more years. The younger patient will be a potential taxpayer not so with the older patient, so who do you think will get the better benefits? The we love everybody, tugging at the heartstrings approach is nice but I am not buying it. The congress has big eyes for the $1trillion or more dollars at stake here. All of that money isn't going to the sick and infirm, its going to their pals to keep them in office. Don't trust these scoundrels, this is about power nothing more.

                          • 7 votes
                          #2.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
                          The Colonel-964761

                          This story touches on one of the main arguments AGAINST nationalized health care: PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

                          Why is it my responsibility to pay for treatment of someone elses lung cancer if it's a result of them smoking three packs of cigarettes every day for 20 years?

                          Why is it my responsibility to pay for the emergency room treatment of the drunk driver that was twice the legal limit and had an automobile accident?

                          Why is it my responsibility to pay for the heart bypass operation on the person who never exercized thier whole life?

                          Why is it my responsibility to pay for the weight reduction surgery of a person who ate two dozen donuts and drank gallons of pepsi every day?

                          Why is it my responsibility to pay for the diabetes patient who ate candy and ice cream non-stop thier whole life?

                          It's not. People's health and what it becomes is largely a result of thier own actions and how they conduct themselves through life. So, why should I have to pay for other's bad behavior? And this doesn't even bring into account the people who get treatment and then don't follow the prescribed regimen or who don't take their prescribed medication regularly. It's simply not fair to ask everyone to pay for other's irresponsibility.

                          But I'm sure the democratic response will just be to have the government tell us what we can and can't eat.

                          • 3 votes
                          #2.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:11 PM EDT
                          The Colonel-964761

                          And to all those people who keep saying "just make them pay more:

                          1. How in the world is the government going to monitor your living habits without intruding on every part of your private lives and

                          2. I thought the WHOLE reason for all this Obama-care was to "lower premiums and make health care affordable for everybody" so why would you want them to pay more.

                          Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. This health care BS is not cost effective, not practical, completely void of common sense and not wanted by half of the American public (and believe me that number is going to get bigger as this thing procedes).

                          • 5 votes
                          #2.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:20 PM EDT
                          addiem

                          The principle of Insurance is that "many pay the cost of a few" - you do not expect to have your house burn down, and many never will, but those that do would not be bankrupted by the costs of the fire loss. Health insurance is a "pool" of dollars, but it is skewed as currently set up.

                          Health insurance for the elderly, in the form of Medicare, is paid into by workers over their working lives, but not enough to cover the escalating costs of the past few years. It is a ponzi scheme, like Social Security - there are not enough younger workers coming up to pay the costs of Medicare, and the "old folks" are going to need to pay more annually in premium than they do now - Medicare is predicted to be broke in 2 years. (SS in 17 years.)

                          Taxpayers/health insurance members, sick or well, we all pay into a "kitty" for those with health issues. Government programs, medicare, medicaid, workers comp, these are all "populations" of "at-risk" and expensive people - ones that private insurers, big surprise, don't want to cover. So the HMO can skim off the healthy and younger and uninjured policyholders - how nice for them - and get their corporate annual million dollar bonuses for keeping down costs.

                          My family's outrageous costs for Medical/Dental for a family of four (over $14,000 a year) includes a $5000 deductible before we do not have to pay "something". For example, the HMO pays $40-some for a doctor visit that is a $188 charge! I have to pay the rest. HMO's have ruined health care in this country. Ten years ago, I simply paid the doctor $45 right at the office, my health insurance was for tests and "big stuff".

                          Even the Republicans on the health care committee said that something must be done, costs to health care are "unsustainable". If that is a not-for-profit one payer system or some combination of private and gov't, whatever - my husband's company will jump on the health care package that costs them less (they pay half). The HMO workers can just go work for Uncle Sam, anything to end for-profit healthcare would be great.

                          • 3 votes
                          #2.9 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                          snake09

                          I just cannot agree with those saying that being overweight is a result of genetics. Ive seen obese individuals that claim "genetics" played a big role on their weith. And its true when they you see the parents but when you see them eat, wow, they eat like theres no tomorrow. If one eats healthy or a low calorie diet they will not put on weight. Mass DOES NOT magically appear on someone's body when they eat right. Its not like they filter feed just by breathing like fish do underwater.

                          • 4 votes
                          #2.10 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:22 PM EDT
                          tony-268769

                          We are going to keep being told, ad nauseum, that our health care system is ranked for below a lot of smaller countries....there's some report that we're ranked "37th " in the world for "mortality" rates, or whatever.

                          What the president or his minions won't say is that nations like Denmark, Norway, etc who rank ablove us don't have to deal with the boatloads of deadbeats and illegal aliens like we have to deal with here. My newspaper is based out of a small (sub-200,000 population) and nary a day goes by without a report...or multiple reports...of people being shot or stabbed or beaten to a pulp on the city's streets. What is not reported is the costs of putting those people back on their feet again. And I'm guessing they don't have any medical insurance. Does Denmark have issues like this ???

                          • 1 vote
                          #2.11 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:42 PM EDT
                          KM-956320

                          Part of the research being done on genetic problems has to do with brain signals telling them they are hungry despite their clearly being full. It's not valid for everyone, but it is a legitimate gripe.

                          Most elderly people, do not die of natural causes. They die of cancer, or some other form of the body breaking down due to aging. I do hope the cost of an extended life from being healthier, includes the cost of caring for a diseased elderly person as well. This is nothing more than a ploy to tell people how to live (is there really any bigger deterrant than the prospect of an earlier death?), and more importantly, a way to tax a gigantic portion of the population, simultaneously placing the blame on them. Will these dollars be collected to increase the health of obese people specifically or disappear into a vacuum of debt our government has accumulated. I'm just wondering.

                          Also many doctors vary on what obese is. Do you really want the government drawing this line? If you do, I will be making a list of vices that the government should be taxing as well. Hopefully you are perfect and have no vices.

                          Edited to add on line with what Tony is saying: Those countries also are oil laden pockets of gold.

                          • 1 vote
                          #2.12 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:47 PM EDT
                          Bobby-563958

                          Hopefull American - The President of the United States, who is self proclaimed his addiction to SMOKING, is telling people they should pay more because they smoke? Is this a contridiction? The Man smokes 2 packs a day.

                          In the State of Florida, those who ride motorcyles without a helment, MUST have current, and no gap medical insurance. That makes sense. Cost alot to treat a head injury, and their insurance must cover that.

                          Now, are we going to tax Kellogs, the people who make Lucky Charms , soft drinks, McDonalds and every other fast food chain in the US? Probably makes sense, but many depend on this, and the affordability of the "value menu" .

                          Juvenile diabetes was almost unheard of 10 years ago, and now , it is at epidemic proportions.

                          So, this is a valid argument and debate to have regarding ANY healthcare change. Former Govenor Mike Huckabee, was once grossly overweight, and so was half the State Government workers . Gov Hucklebee has done tremensously as to his own personal responsiblity , and incentives to State of Ark employees to stop smoking , lose weight etc etc.

                          Being I am STRONGLY opposed to any form of the current healtcare bills floating around, I do feel strongly that there should be some personal responsibility.

                          I can't get healthcare because I am a deadbeat, or lack personal responsibility. I cant get it because the insurance companies say that I have to pay approx 17K per year, and they will cover NONE of my tests etc etc, which cost me out of pocket less than the insurance would.

                          There are 2 simple ways to get everyone insured. STOP the Pre-exisiting conditions exclusions, and stop the canceling of policies or jacking rates because of a cured cancer I had 13 years ago.

                          CB-Yes, as a fiscal conservative, I absolutely agree and could live with private insurance that awarded personal responsiblity. No doubt about it, and I think many FISCAL conservatives would feel the same.

                          Government Public option , run by a group of career government employee's?

                          NO FRIGGING WAY THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN !!!!! Every poll, every townhall, the opposition is clear to NO Government option healthcare.

                          The real problem is the one sided discussion to the legislation . The Lefties, MUST include ALL in the discussion. I guess Harvard doesn't teach mutual agreements any more. It would be helpful if the Lefties would actually know what bill they are attempting to pass, cut the crap, and work on a bipartisan approach. The President, the Congress and the Senante have no idea what they are voting for.

                          Here in lies the problem. Until this changes, you can expect the massive protest to get even larger.

                          No fiscal conservative has any problem to personal responsiblity. But there is no way they will let the Government determine responsibility.

                          They could start with congress. Lead by example. Alot of fat guy in congress ya know.

                          But the best example of personal responsibility would be to show transparency, have bi-partisan dialogue, and the biggest one, READ THE BILLS !!!!!

                          • 1 vote
                          #2.13 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:47 PM EDT
                          sickly professor

                          I have been on here ranting about this horrible socialization of medicine idea. Many were against me. I said just wait until they start charging for fat, smoking, drinking etc.

                          It has not even passed yet and it is starting. Welcome to big brother running your life.

                          This only makes sense folks. Nobody who takes care of themselves is going to be okay with their fat, smoking, drinking neighbor when it cost them(everybody).

                          This is a necessity with this new system. Anything less avoids a huge part of health costs.

                          • 3 votes
                          #2.14 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:04 PM EDT
                          justice fleeting

                          ...put down the doughnut...

                          Ok, if we tell people what they can eat, then I want to know what Congress is eating, because tax payers are paying per Diem for it. So, fess up, and let's look at how healthy our reps and senators are eating. After all, they won't be covered by this pie-in-the-sky health care program. They get to choose and keep what they have.

                          • 2 votes
                          #2.15 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
                          levantase

                          We can talk and talk and talk, NOTHING is going to change with health care. The people making the money will make sure they continue making the money.

                          Get people arguing over the obese, smokers, etc etc and it prevents any real reform from taking place. No amount of debate is going to change things in health care.

                          Face it folks.

                          • 1 vote
                          #2.16 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:27 PM EDT
                          schwannomin

                          It is true that no debate here is going to fix our health care problems. But I can tell you this. If my daughter or son....or wife or mother or father died because they could not afford treatment for a chronic condition (i.e. advanced cancer or diabetes), it would be really hard for me to not want to find John Boehner, Rush Limbaugh, et al., and hold them personally responsible for that death.

                            #2.17 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:44 PM EDT
                            choochoo-1167113

                            LU, you are making enormous assumptions. Eating healthy is not a matter of intelligence. You, apparently, don't know about the economic recession which started quite some time ago, before you ever heard about it. That's because economic downturns hit the poorest people first and they are also hit the hardest. A large percent of Americans go hungry every day and have little to no choice about what food they get. Don't think that food stamps solve the problem. They don't. Inept government technicians often can't add two and two, let alone do simple paperwork. As far as exercise, there are many people with disabilities who need special conditions and long term exercise programs. Again, government insurance programs do not provide such medical care. Do these problems, caused by government insurance programs, cause obesity? You're darn right they do! Will the government use a poor or disabled person's obesity as an excuse to deny them medical care? You're darn right they will! Remember, you could be a victim of a serious accident or illness.

                              #2.18 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:54 PM EDT
                              choochoo-1167113

                              levantase, health care policy changes all the time! What in the world are you talking about??? Do you live in a cave?

                              • 1 vote
                              #2.19 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:58 PM EDT
                              levantase

                              We can talk and talk and talk, NOTHING is going to change with health care. The people making the money will make sure they continue making the money.

                              Get people arguing over the obese, smokers, etc etc and it prevents any real reform from taking place. No amount of debate is going to change things in health care.

                                #2.20 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:05 PM EDT
                                choochoo-1167113

                                levantase, uncle sam and his millions of technocrats ("little Eichmanns" as professor Ward Churchill would say) only care about money. And, the big boys and fat cats who deal with him are of the same mind. That's why common folks are paying out the ying yang, not only with dollars, but with our health and lives.

                                  #2.21 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:34 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  cb78750

                                  Ok then.  If your obese, or a smoker, don't exercise, etc.  Then you should pay more for your health insurance premiums.  If you can demonstrate that you are taking good care of yourself by exercising and eating right etc., then you premiums should be less. 

                                  How about that conservatives.  You like the idea of personal responsibility.  If we are going to be stuck with private insurance companies I can certainly live with that.  Can you?

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:37 AM EDT
                                  Anniek

                                  Ok extra for children and drinkers also right if you want to be fair let's do it right

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #3.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:40 AM EDT
                                  cb78750

                                  Fine. The more burdon you put on the system. The more you pay. Again, fine with me. We do it for drivers. If you have a poor driving record or drive a certain kind of vehicle that is shown to statistically be a higher risk, you pay more.

                                  I'm tired of paying higher premiums for obese slobs who can't control their eating habits and expect me to pay for it. That goes double for obese breeders manufacture obese children.

                                  • 11 votes
                                  #3.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:46 AM EDT
                                  Two Cents Worth

                                  Drugs, booze, cigarettes or donuts. It all boils down to low self esteem.

                                    #3.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:57 AM EDT
                                    Pat-#@!&!#@

                                    People that exercise and do sports get more injuries. Should they pay more too? And people who live longer, they'll cost more too. Where do you draw the line?

                                    • 7 votes
                                    #3.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:20 AM EDT
                                    Tim Lucas

                                    I am 54 and have smoked, drinked and qualify for just about all bad habits out there. I have had health care and paid for said healthcare all of my life. I have never been sick. I also have another habit, I mind my own business. I don't have anything to say, reguarding someone else's habits nor modifications for their personality. People will do what they want to despite you control freaks that think "do as I do". If I don't live longer than many of you, I wish to be buried face down so you can kiss my conservative ___.

                                    • 10 votes
                                    #3.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:37 AM EDT
                                    cb78750

                                    Incentives and disincentives should be tied to controllable factors. Sure, if your reckless or don't know when to quit, you should potentially have to pay more. I'm sure the actuaries can come up with come creative ways to address sports injuries. For example, you would have to weigh the benefits of exercise, along with the potential of injury against the health costs of not being involved in any activities.

                                    In the case of having achieved longevity, well, that should be rewarded. You don't get to be 90 years old, generally speaking, by engaging in risky behaviors.

                                      #3.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:41 AM EDT
                                      LU-404506

                                      They need to tax the addictions, not charge higher premiums.

                                      People that receive government health care don't pay premiums. The only way to get them to contribute is to collect the money when the purchase their addiction of choice.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #3.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
                                      archangel316

                                      This is the system we have now! What the final genisis of Obama's plan will be is that everyone will be paying for it!

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #3.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
                                      cb78750

                                      You are a statistical outlier Tim. You may be granted a discount for simply having a good health history (probably good genes). I just don't wan't to pay my hard earned money to provide medical care for someone who doesn't have enough common sense to not abuse their bodies. The private insurers should be all over this.

                                        #3.9 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:02 AM EDT
                                        Liz-1105926

                                        These arguments are exactly why people need to pay based on how much health care they actually use. There is no way to make this fair; I have 2 kids but we hardly ever go to the doctor. Maybe other people don't have kids but go to the doctor more then me. Maybe they drink or smoke, or are fat (I don't drink, smoke, and I am an athlete). Why should I pay for them? The same people that complain about paying for other peoples kids are probably costing more money then me in other ways. When they went to school, other people paid taxes for THEM. I have a good job and pay PLENTY of taxes for other people. Some things you do because it's good for society; this is a foreign concept in this culture. My dad calls it the "hooray for me and f__— you" mentality. But people do need to be responsible so absolutely NOBODY shoud get health care for free, I don't care how "poor" you are. Even if a poor person's copay is $5, or $2, people HAVE to have a stake in this. If you've ever known anyone that got their health care for free, even for their kids, you'd know that they run to the doctor for finger cuts. Nowhere is this more apparent then the military; I was army and these families abuse the health care all the time. You can't even get an appt the same day if you're puking blood because all the morons that get it for free have their kids at the doctor every time they sneeze.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #3.10 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
                                        scales67

                                        OK, I want to pay lower taxes since I don't have children. Why should I support schools and pay for the education of other people's children? Some of these public schools in my county have swimming pools that rival private country clubs.

                                        • 6 votes
                                        #3.11 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:27 AM EDT
                                        Karen-1114040

                                        Liz - people in the armed forces do not get "free" health care. They pay for their health care with their service to their country, in order to protect you and the American way of life - they sacrifice a lot to be in the service. They are paid low wages and in return they are offered certain incentives, such as free health care. My father was in the AF and I went to military hospitals too, I don't recall there being any more abuses of the system than at any private hospital. What I do remember is there being a shortage of doctors and nurses and very long waits in the emergency room in the middle of the night because of it. This is what is in store for the rest of us when this new health care for all becomes law. Low wages and government control does very little for getting qualified people to become doctors.

                                        By the way, if you are puking blood I would suggest going to the emergency room and not trying to make an appoinntment at your doctor's office.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #3.12 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:05 PM EDT
                                        Karen-1114040

                                        Scales - you should pay for other people's children's education because they are the ones that are going to be running our country when you are old and hoping to God that you are going to be treated fairly and that the law makers are smart enough to do the right things. Sounds like you live in a nice place, that's what investing in your community gets you.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #3.13 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:09 PM EDT
                                        Sick of party squabling

                                        How about idiots who don't stretch properly or get proper training on equipment before training pay extra as well when they end up injured as well? That's a poor life choice. Or how about people who go out on bicycles without wearing a helmet, maybe people who drive over or under the speed limit because they're causing a safety hazzard? Where do you want it to stop? You may be paying for someone who has poor health choices, but if you end up with a genetic disease or end up in a serious accident, you're also paying for that. It's no different than what you do with your insurance. Oh, and if people didn't have kids, you wouldn't have Social Security or Medicare, so if you don't want to pay taxes for other people's children than don't accept Social Security or Medicare because it's the next generation that will be paying for yours. You're paying for the previous and current generations, not yourself.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #3.14 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:12 PM EDT
                                        Hopeful American

                                        Cb78750:

                                        And just how would your idea of Health Care Utopia be overseen and managed? Give me a break!! There is no way to manage 350 million people and their own individual life styles, genes and habits.

                                        Your comments have proved why the government has no business running health care!

                                        I'm tired for paying for people having kids they can't afford, for people that smoke, drink, drive too fast, ride motorcylces, don't wear seatbelts, live in a more dangerous area, take too many over-counter or prescription drugs! It doesn't end Cb! And it's far from just an obesity problem. I'm sure you have several habits that other's don't want to pay for!

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #3.15 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:28 PM EDT
                                        Hopeful American

                                        Cb:

                                        And if you've reached 90 - the majority of 90 year old's are receiving a lot of costly medical care! Only now it's not just for the physical issues that just come naturally at the age - it's the mind issues. Dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and other such conditions are hugely expensive to manage as not only are there medical costs associated with these conditions, but it becomes 24/7 care, including housing! You are kidding yourself if you think there are a bunch of 90 years old's living like they are 50!

                                        So just what exactly is your plan for a whole bunch of old people sucking the system dry?

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #3.16 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:36 PM EDT
                                        ewent

                                        Hopeful American..You're tired? Maybe you need to find out why. And don't drive your car if you are tired or operate machinery. You're a danger. And you should be charged more for your health care for walking around in a sleepless fog.

                                          #3.17 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:39 PM EDT
                                          Hopeful American

                                          ewent:

                                          I think you are the one tired or in a fog! What an idiotic response!!

                                            #3.18 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:42 PM EDT
                                            ewent

                                            Hopeful American...I give as good as I get. And, may I remind you that you were the one who posted that you "are tired"...of ...yadda, yadda petty BS?

                                              #3.19 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
                                              Carlos Toadvine

                                              I also have another habit, I mind my own business.

                                              You are a crazy radical! The collective is much more important than your rather selfish desire to do what you wish! Who do you think you are. The will of the state is paramount. If you keep talking like this I will be forced to turn you into the authorities you are rocking the boat and are unamerican! Our leaders, the great examples of service and compassion are never wrong and the idea that somehow minding your own business is disturbing to my sensibility's and the never ending work of our great, great leaders who only seek to improve our lives. Silence!

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #3.20 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
                                              JEREMY-664722

                                              all these gripes and tax imposing makes me sick. and it should make the rest of you sick too. think about welfare and any other "free" gov't program.... it's all handouts paid for by citizens , WORKING CLASS CITIZENS.

                                              We'll Be Taxed To Death.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #3.21 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:16 PM EDT
                                              Laura-261470

                                              I don't think that people should be penalized for having children. After all, who is going to do the work and pay into SS and Medicaid when the boomers retire. Likewise, we should all pay for public education, since it is a benefit to society.

                                              Of course, there are those people who have 8 more children when they can't afford to fee the ones they already have, or don't take care of their kids because they are on drugs. Don't know what to do about that.

                                                #3.22 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
                                                Carlos Toadvine

                                                Laura, You are exactly right! More taxpayers means more programs more recipients and more power for Washington! Actually families who produce more taxpayers should qualify for a higher tax bracket and the privilege to contributing more to the common good as defined by our esteemed partisan bosses. Those who produce more recipients should of course get a earned income credit and receive a bigger check as they will produce reliable voters with enough time on their hands to register others attend meetings, demonstrations, campaign rallies and vote multiple times, it doesn't get any better. Here we say vote early vote often, on to Washington!

                                                  #3.23 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                                                  SNC-1

                                                  Scales67 said, "OK, I want to pay lower taxes since I don't have children. Why should I support schools and pay for the education of other people's children? "

                                                  Because you live in a (say it with me now) S-O-C-I-E-T-Y. You don't want to help pay for the progression and betterment of the society by educating or caring for it's future then go live off the grid. But then where would you get your fast food and cartoon network? You sound like a real winner.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #3.24 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:09 PM EDT
                                                  Carlos Toadvine

                                                  SNC-!, You are a hater and selfish. Please check into a reeducation facility for a course in recognizing your responsibility to the collective. You need to reflect on your unwillingness to give more. Failure to comply will result in your name being given to the ministry of truth.

                                                    #3.25 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:24 PM EDT
                                                    daisydaze

                                                    I'm confused... but isn't it someone "Opposed" to the healthcare plan who is proposing all these charge smokers and fat people more? Then Why are we blaming Obama for it as well? It's funny how anything with a negative connotation ends up being pushed towards the democrats when it originated from republicans... I'm sorry, but I read the article and it said that some doctor is proposing this and mad the the administration is not talking about it or bringing it up.

                                                    This whole socialized healthcare can be blamed on the current healthcare we have. If insurance companies weren't fraudulent in denying people care we would have never had to resort to this, but as it is they charge outstanding fees then look for reasons to not pay for someone who recently becomes diagnosed with breast cancer, siting things like acne as a pre-existing condition to deny coverage.

                                                    Healthcare was never meant to be a for profit organization and as it stands now, it is. We pay police and firemen through taxes to protect us... what is wrong with doing the same with healthcare... why do so many of you want to see people suffer and die quietly. The fact of the matter is not everyone can be rich... someone has to be poor... someone has to do the menial tasks of cleaning crap from the wall and yet you expect those positions to be filled yet want to deny them healthcare. Not everyone is born with a silverspoon in their mouth and have a good quality education handed to them simply because of what family they were born into, and it's really sad that you manipulate the under-educated through your fear mongering. All the first world countries love their socialized health insurance... as a matter of fact we are the only wealthy country without socialized medicine. Japan with the number one healthcare in the world is socialized healthcare, they recognize the importance of taking care of the group.

                                                    Why is there so much hate here?

                                                    Very recently there was this guy who is against the healtcare bill who got so angry and violent when people didn't agree with him that he STARTED a fight.. he physically walked up and started pushing people. Well this fight broke out and a lot of people got sent to the hospital and some of them also ended up in jail.

                                                    -And Yet- This very same guy did not have any healthcare and now has a very large medical bill to pay for because he was messed up in that fight - IRONICALLY- He is asking for people to donate to him to pay for his medical bills.... funny how the people against the plan seem to be all self serving. Here is a link to the story-

                                                    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019423.php

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #3.26 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
                                                    Carlos Toadvine

                                                    and it's really sad that you manipulate the under-educated through your fear mongering.

                                                    It is pathetic that the under-educated are so gullible. If only they were able to grasp the issues like the more enlightened educated people who have the absolute answers to the complex issues we face. We of course should be exempt from these rather mundane programs. Imagine a thinking person who doesn't trust the government run by the generous people lovers in congress. They (congress) have tapped their own resources until they exist at almost the poverty level in an effort to right the wrongs of this selfish society in which we live. Maybe these undereducated buffoons shouldn't be allowed to vote at all, they are after all so incapable of rational thinking. We highly educated thinkers should control the agenda as we all think alike, not agreeing after all means you are not educated and not eligible to have an opinion.

                                                      #3.27 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:52 PM EDT
                                                      tony-268769

                                                      How about having to pay for others' "conception" habits??? Twenty five years ago, it was considered crass to criticize the baby-making habits of those in society's lower economic strata....will Mr. Obama and his health care planners have anything to say about these folks and the enormous costs they are laying off on others ???

                                                      One can argue about whether or not certain habits are genetically ingrained in people...drinking, smoking, overeating, etc. But can anyone say that getting pregnant or impregnating miscellaneous women has it's root cause in genetics ???

                                                      We can no longer afford to cover expenses for the single "mother" of six...whose kids mainly become the single "mothers" and "fathers" of 3, 4, or 5 more.... with many starting to run up their numbers while still in their teenage years. Just do the mathematics on this problem. And many of these are the people included into that unexplained but omnipresent 47 million number that keeps getting tossed around.

                                                      This country would not have half the problems we are constantly told that we have if it were not for a class of deadbeats who produce exactly nothing for this society except expenses, problems, and a constant demand for payment or societal repair of same....on everyone else's dime.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #3.28 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:07 PM EDT
                                                      garrie

                                                      It would be so much easier for us if we all worked for free and our great and wonderful government decided what we needed. They can decide what our homes should look like, what clothes we should have, the food we should get, and what kind of car and how much gas we will get for it. Our great and wonderful government could also decide who is in charge since we Americans are to ignorant to vote on who should tell us what to do!!

                                                      I think if you took a look at Russia and China you would see how this works.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #3.29 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:01 PM EDT
                                                      bibol

                                                      Smokers are paying for children's health care. They increased the taxes on tobacco. They are paying for the people are too lazy to take care of their children. They also are paying extra taxes besides the increase.

                                                        #3.30 - Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
                                                        Reply
                                                        hsr0601

                                                        Part 1.

                                                        Problems :

                                                        1. No systematic, expansive Prevention & Wellness Program.

                                                        According to the scoring of CBO on the prevention & wellness program, all fitness centers around the world should close down immediately and all media have to end
                                                        reporting health tips about prevention. Rather, all of the excellent health systems seem to have one feature in common, a expansive, systematic preventative program
                                                        requiring immense investments.
                                                        I think a prevention system works as a 'levee' built against flood by the government, similarly, it also needs non-profit investments from the government 'on a large scale'.
                                                        This might offer us one clue of why all of the free states have public insurance policy in place.

                                                        Surprisingly enough, the system today is designed around treating patients once they become sick. As far as I'm concerned, the congress affected by the special interests
                                                        has turned down the budget request for prevention program in Medicare & Medicaid, which are the most expensive parts of the health program. Let's imagine the astronomical
                                                        costs and invaluable lives following the levee breach.

                                                        2. A pay for each service / volume compensation, & No E-Medical Record.

                                                        As much as 30 percent of all health-care spending in the U.S. -some $700 billion a year- may be wasted on tests and treatments that do not improve the health of the
                                                        recipients, and this 700 billion dollars a year can cover a lot of uninsured people, in return, it could lessen the tragic, prohibitive ER cares.
                                                        Medical errors ( No e-Medical Record ) & lawsuits, more profits motive, and indirect payments from employers etc would account for it.

                                                        Supposedly, 'a pay for each service / volume' compensation seems to leave the medical institutes unequipped with the essential IT system. To understand its importance, If
                                                        we imagine the cost difference between the previous and current system in financial institutes, the magnitude of cost-savings and the mess in health care system can
                                                        be easily explained.

                                                        3. Premium Inflation.

                                                        This last spring, due to the demand decrease, the peak fuel price came down below $40 per barrel, though, the
                                                        'Similar' insurance premiums keep on rising, accordingly the inaction could bankrupt family, business, and
                                                        government 'BEYOND this recession' , as all across the spectrum agree.

                                                        Insurance premiums have nothing to do with the law of demand & supply and the free / fair market concept.
                                                        Basically, as demand diminishes, the price tends to reflect it, nonetheless, the insurers that formed a cartel through
                                                        consolidation have replenished the loss by exercising inhumane malpractices involving denying, capping, cherry-picking, rationing, rapid
                                                        premium increase and the like. And this runaway premium ended up in the collapse of middle
                                                        class ranging ' from finance to mental health' , alongside the peak fuel price and fast-growing mortgage rate, as all of
                                                        us know. Thereby they could be cited as an objective for anti-trust or anti-corruption. If the public plan sets the same rate of the insurers, it will be another headache.

                                                        Ironically, the Deficit-sensitive groups have a distinctive common ground, they all have a Deficit-driven background out of
                                                        question. Therefore, I'd say they have nothing to say about deficit unless they are free from the sponsors.
                                                        And the spoiled menu, 'Takeover and Rationing Cliche' is still marching for bankruptcy, as opposed to its motto.

                                                        4. 'Work or Break' health system with no brake or safety system.

                                                        Just like marriage, economy also undergoes up and down, however, economic downturn is not reflected in the employment-based system.
                                                        The rising mental stress or illness & 'keep eating habit' , which are the epicenter of a number of different diseases,might be traced
                                                        to this insecure system and exorbitant premiums.

                                                        Part 2.

                                                        The Public Plan:

                                                        1. Thankfully, the health care reform bill currently before Congress makes several key investments including more primary care doctors in preventive care, and those pieces
                                                        of the public plan must be maintained .

                                                        2. The pay for 'Outcome' pack is most likely to expedite the introduction of Health Care IT SYSTEM, and it will help doctors focus on their patients.

                                                        3. The 'innovative' idea of a 'pay for value / outcome' pack will allow for Quality and affordability
                                                        . If you are a physician, and your pay is dependant upon your patient's outcome, you will most likely strive to
                                                        prescribe the best medicine earlier in the process, let alone skipping the wasteful, unnecessary risk-carrying
                                                        procedures.
                                                        Young folks and advocates need to explain the notion of a pay for outcome agreement to the elderly misled by the
                                                        disinformation.
                                                        4. The synergy effect of the combined Health Care IT & a pay for 'outcome' system may allow the clinicians to
                                                        'correctly' diagnose and effectively treat a patient earlier in the process so that it can measurably decrease the
                                                        crushing lawsuits and deter the excuse for unnecessary cares to make fortunes.


                                                        5. The creative idea of 'a pay for outcome' will more likely prompt team approach and decision, as at Myo clinic.
                                                        Under the 'pay for outcome' pack, for good reason, best practices as 'recommendations' would simply help them
                                                        make a better decision, and the government won't still have to meddle in the final, actual decision-making
                                                        process as a non-expert.

                                                        6. This New 'Payment Reform' could accelerate the progress in medical science, in return, it will save more cash.
                                                        And this idea will be able to bring 'competition' to the private market, as a result, it can contribute to mitigating premium inflation.

                                                        7. Supporters of the agreement say it could save the Medicare System more than $100 billion a year and 'improve'
                                                        care, that means more than $1trillian over next decade, and virtually needs no other resources including tax on the
                                                        wealthiest. Supposedly even the 'conservative' number of such savings might be able to meet the objective of revenue-neutral.
                                                        (Please visit http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=820455&catid=391 for detailed infos).

                                                        8. Through clinic's network, users of its health-care services can keep up with their health information and information for family members, and receive health guidance and recommendations from clinic that is optimized for each person.
                                                        The system also allows patients to upload information from home-health devices such as blood glucose monitors and digital scales. Patients can authorize whether they want to share their health information with doctors or other caregivers, and those caregivers can provide health-care and general wellness recommendations based on the information patients provide.
                                                        9. In case the health care reform provides the general public with peace of mind, the rising mental stress, obesity caused by the insecure system and
                                                        exorbitant premiums may bend the curve surprisingly.

                                                        10. Clearly, the positive impacts involving massive job creation, promising stem cell research, several times more economic effects of 'from bed to work' lie ahead, these will lead to economic recovery.

                                                        Part 3.

                                                        Conclusion ;

                                                        1. The last thing to expect is rallying for premium inflation, JUST SAYING NO.

                                                        2. Over time, supposedly, the public plan will concentrate more on basic, primary cares, and the private insurers will provide their clients with differentiated services.

                                                        3. With the Prevention & Wellness Program as a stable levee in place, the promising pay for value/ outcome reimbursement reform based on IT system could clear the way for revenue-neutral. Some say the installation of IT network will take time, but once this new outcome-based payment system is implemented, the hospitals reluctant to adopt it will most likely rush to introduce it.

                                                        4. The final hurdle looks like a scoring issue surrounding the savings on Prevention & Wellness Program, but I'd like to say
                                                        health clubs and media reports on prevention tips must be maintained.

                                                        5. People would be entitled to various services whether you are employed, unemployed or self-employed, homeless or housed, young or old, chronically ill or mentally ill, moving from job to job or from town to town or from state to state.

                                                        Thank You !

                                                        • 3 votes
                                                        Reply#4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:43 AM EDT
                                                        Jim V.

                                                        hsr,

                                                        Thank you for your post it was most informative.

                                                        3. The innovative idea of a 'pay for value / outcome pack will allow for Quality and affordability . If you are a physician, and your pay is dependant upon your patients outcome, you will most likely strive to
                                                        prescribe the best medicine earlier in the process, let alone skipping the wasteful, unnecessary risk-carrying
                                                        procedures. Young folks and advocates need to explain the notion of a pay for outcome agreement to the elderly misled by the disinformation.

                                                        This point is something that has been going on in France, Canada and most "Socialized" medical care around the world and it has been successful. Doctors are paid very well and they are given bonuses if their patients stop smoking or improve their health by losing weight and exercising.

                                                        I would like to say that when you post facts or something that makes sense on this post it usually is ignored or ridiculed. Thank you again for you informative post!

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #4.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:22 AM EDT
                                                        PD-1265965

                                                        I have been waiting for this article. I am a Trauma Surgeon and Intensivist living in Europe for the last few years. While people over here smoke, they do not have the same expectations for healthcare when they develop cancer, vascular/cardiac disease, etc due to their choice. People in the US, by and large, don't exercise, eat poorly and expect to live forever by a pill. Not going to happen. Poor choices should cost more to the individuals who make them. I'm sorry to sound so callous but having a normal weight patient, outside the military, is a rarity.

                                                        As for Socialized medicine, I work that in the military and it is fine. I don't make as much as my civilian counterparts, but I make enough. It is definitely more than any of the local physicians. They are NOT paid well by US standards but they also don't work the hours we do. Nice lifestyle if you can get it!

                                                        Thanks.

                                                          #4.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:31 AM EDT
                                                          Karen-1114040

                                                          "While people over here smoke, they do not have the same expectations for healthcare when they develop cancer, vascular/cardiac disease, etc due to their choice"

                                                          Please tell us what expectations they have in regards to their health care? And why?

                                                            #4.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:16 PM EDT
                                                            ewent

                                                            Hsr....Get bit by a Lyme tick while you are hiking....Then come back and tell me how healthy you will be. You won't know the tick is there until it's too late and all of the venom has already passed through your blood stream to your heart, lungs and tissue. It will take years of medication and even that might not help. Like any tropical insect borne disease which now abounds in this country thanks to imported foods on filthy ships, let's see how many people can stay healthy or take advantage of wellness if they can stay alert long enough.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #4.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:43 PM EDT
                                                            The Colonel-964761

                                                            All the arguments here, for and against, are moot you know. Congress has already said it will use reconciliation in order to pass it regardless.

                                                            So anyone here who wants it. Congratulations.

                                                            Anyone here who doesn't. Unfortunately it won't matter.

                                                            So I guess we'd better all hope it's a success, cause it's coming whether you want it or not and whether it's successful or not.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #4.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
                                                            chop007

                                                            hsr---

                                                            Just how is one supposed to force patients to comply with prescribed medical treatments? You can explain until you are blue in the face, you can schedule the test/therapy/etc. and call the patient to tell them they are set to go BUT, how are you going to force someone to do the right thing if they simply won't. Ever hear of non-compliance? It's huge in the medical world.

                                                            Obama wants pay to be dependant on outcomes? He's been smoking something other than Kools for too long. HOW? Is the doctor supposed to send a car or the police to pick up the patient? Just let me know. I'll pass it on to others.

                                                            I am NOT saying our system is perfect, but it works for most of the meople. Fix the broken parts, NOT scrap the entire system with a totally worthless, ill-conceived idea (there is no plan). This would be disasterous.

                                                              #4.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:32 PM EDT
                                                              George-St. Petersburg, FL.

                                                              "5. People would be entitled to various services whether you are employed, unemployed or self-employed, homeless or housed, young or old, chronically ill or mentally ill, moving from job to job or from town to town or from state to state."

                                                              You forgot one category of people. People who illegally enter the US and under current plan would be covered. That's 10+ Million of the 47 million number that is tossed around all the time. It's wrong and must be deleted from current proposals. IMO.

                                                              What about tort reform? Didn't see that mentioned as a way to increase savings and reduce costs. Why is this not a major part of these proposals?? Hmmmm....

                                                              Wonder why neither of these have been included?? I'm sure most know the answer..

                                                                #4.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:02 PM EDT
                                                                CBWY777Deleted
                                                                Reply
                                                                K>S>C>

                                                                The government will already impose personal responsibility: its called a twinky tax, or soda tax. They tax the hell out of tobacco, just a matter of time before they start taxing everything else.

                                                                Get that dog-nut out of your mouth lady!!!

                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                Reply#5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:47 AM EDT
                                                                Two Cents Worth

                                                                How would you like to be the poor Woman in the Photo ? Talk about humiliating, I'm sure she just went on a diet after having her photo used.

                                                                  #5.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:54 AM EDT
                                                                  cb78750

                                                                  Forget the tax on food. Just concentrate on the insurance premiums. If it's obvious to the average person that someone is abusing their bodies, then it should be even more so for a doctor. Let the insurance companies impose a penalty for being overweight. That would be a good place to start.

                                                                    #5.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                                                    GK-298121

                                                                    Two Cents Worth - no, the picture looks like what is called a "stock photo".

                                                                    Photographers get a release from the subject, and the media, advertisers, etc. purchase the photos from a library. It's faster and cheaper than doing custom photo shoots.

                                                                    What I would have liked to see is a picture of a skinny woman eating a donut and not looking guilty. I've found over time that my skinny friends are human garbage cans.

                                                                    Or, I would have liked to see a fat woman eating a donut but not dressed in a stereotypical fashion - but dressed like the smart attorney in that new lifetime "Diva" drama.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #5.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:09 AM EDT
                                                                    ewent

                                                                    GK...Ever take a look at the Governors in this country? Find me one without a tad of a paunch. Must be all those dining hall lunches, right?

                                                                      #5.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:48 PM EDT
                                                                      Laura-261470

                                                                      The caption explicitly states that that is a stock photo, if it matters that much to you.

                                                                        #5.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:58 PM EDT
                                                                        choochoo-1167113

                                                                        Sooo. The big boys have been deciding, amongst themselves, what they want and how they are going to get it. Little by little, bits of information are released to the public. Guess what? We, the people, are getting the short end of the stick. Political groups of people with disabilities have proposed community based home health care, which politicos liked earlier this year. However, now it's getting swept under the rug. Community choice costs about a third of what nursing home care costs. But, you know, those nursing home lobbyists don't work cheap. They must be pretty effective in Washington, because Uncle Sam and his cronies would rather satisfy them than their constituents. And, let's take a look at the government plan which would be offered to the folks making 300% of poverty level. It would be an expansion of the Medicaid program. Anyone who thinks that Medicaid, or any other government program, is free are delusional. The elderly and disabled, who get Medicare and Medicaid now, paid for it all of their working lives. Those bloggers with the "I pay, they play" mentality are way off base. You must have a prosecution complex or some other dysfunction, but that doesn't give you the right to dump on others. Wake up and take a long, hard look at who, exactly, is REALLY ripping you off. Oh, and about the article- many serious illnesses are not caused by "donuts diets"- muscular dystrophy, etc. Will people who worked in coal mines now be denied Black Lung benefits if they ever smoked a cigarette? I know someone who was told by a doctor that they could not have lung problems because they had never smoked very much. Later, a pulmonologist told them that they had scar tissue in their lungs. They had worked in a mine for ten years. This article and the donut diet idea are retaliation by the big boys to pin the blame on patients. It's a divide and conquer tactic aimed at turning "we, the people" against each other so that the beaurocrats and industry big boys can get what they want. Wake up, folks.

                                                                          #5.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:14 PM EDT
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          Ed-743399

                                                                          "Personal responsibility" is a nice pie-in-the-sky term, but there are so many societal factors working against it, that it becomes difficult, if not impossible for most people to develop a personal health ethic. The first one is advertising. When the commercial culture constantly seduces us to indulge every epicurean whim, at the expense of our health, it sets up a major roadblock.
                                                                          In the 1950s and 1960s, especially when Kennedy was President, there was an emphasis on physical education in the schools, with minimum performance standards. That has definitely fallen by the wayside. Today's parents certainly don't encourage their children to go outside and play. Unstructured play has been found to be the best form of adolescent exercise. Today's kids sit in their rooms with X-boxes or iPods and vegetate, partly because their parents only want them to be entertained (read: sedated). Also, there is so much fear about kids on playgrounds now, it's paralyzing.
                                                                          Another form of recreational exercise that few children do now is bicycle riding. I rode my bike everywhere as a kid. The elementary school I attended in the '50 & '60s actually taught bicylce safety and responsibility. Nowadays, I see many adults on bikes who could use a few of those lessons. And the kids sure aren't getting it.
                                                                          So, if you want to see "personal responsibilty" in health choices, society, communities, and even families need to be more accomodating and supportive of those activities and behaviors that contribute to the opportunities to become and remain healthy:
                                                                          1) Curb junk food advertising
                                                                          2) Encourage outdoor play (preferebably unstructured)
                                                                          3) Encourage a bicycle culture at an early age, including bicycle safety and responsibility education
                                                                          4) Grow a home garden
                                                                          5) Get out into nature more often
                                                                          6) Walk at every opportunity
                                                                          7) My personal favorite-Tai Chi. A regular low-impact aerobic exercise that strengthens both body and mind and the connection between them. Best done outdoors in bare feet.

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          Reply#6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
                                                                          Two Cents Worth

                                                                          8. Stop sitting in front of the Computer writing blogs all day.

                                                                          • 7 votes
                                                                          #6.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
                                                                          GK-298121

                                                                          It's not just obesity - there are plenty of unhealthy vices besides it that cost health care dollars.

                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                          #6.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:11 AM EDT
                                                                          archangel316

                                                                          I have a plan that should improve education, reduce health care costs, reduce stress related crime and cure a number of other social ills. It's called slowing down and not being in a rush. here is what I mean, In education we a constantly trying to measure the quantity on the information regurgitated by our children in testing, but we don't pay enough attention to the quality of what they have learned. A child may be able to read, but how well, a child may be able to write, but is it done correctly and is the child able to accurately express themselves. If we slowed down the "rat race" just a bit, stress levels would decrease, work quality would increase, job satisfaction would be better, and job burnout would abate. Plus, we wouldn't have as many citizens "going postal" on the general population, or going nuts while stuck in traffic. (I do apologize for the postal remark it was used for lack of a better term.) Finally with stress levels down and a less hectic schedule, there would be more time for excercise(all varieties not just structured), less obeseity from stress related eating disorders, probably a drop in the divorce rate, all this leading to better coronary health and probably less smoking which as any smoker knows is stress relief.

                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                          #6.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
                                                                          altsolution?

                                                                          Finally somebody has hit on a bright idea! HOW ABOUT WE ALL SLOW DOWN! I noticed the pace of our society went through the roof somewhere in the 90's and it keeps on speeding up. We seem to only value speed and how much productivity we can squeeze out of an individual before we discard them.

                                                                          • 4 votes
                                                                          #6.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:08 PM EDT
                                                                          ewent

                                                                          altsolution...Yes...the pace did increase to the speed of the Big Board on Wall Street.

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          #6.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
                                                                          JEREMY-664722

                                                                          ahh, quantity not quality. it can be noticed almost everywhere you go. take the grocery store for example. on arrival the parking spaces are so tight and packed together, unless your riding a motorcycle or golf cart. select a cart from a variety of colors and wheel problems, but they got plenty of them. i do my shopping and never buy the same brand twice it seems because the store itself shops around for the lowest price but charges me the same. and checkout, when they ask "paper or plastic?" and i reply paper, which doesn't matter because the bagger, usually a teenager, can't remember past five seconds and puts my groceries in plastic anyway. when the total comes up and the poor girl looks confused when you hand her cash and she can't count it or make change without the machine telling her, although she's probably 16-18 and can send an astounding 3000 text msgs a month.

                                                                          Quality has gone down the drain.

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #6.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:43 PM EDT
                                                                          chop007

                                                                          altsolution?

                                                                          You are correct. We have cousins who reside in Europe. We LOVE visiting them because of their lifestyle. They simply don't over do it. They take breaks during the day to rest and simply work a longer workday.

                                                                          It is expensive to live there and FORGET getting your healthcare there--its CASH AND CARRY. Bring the money in an envelope or the doctor won't see you. I know it is horrible sounding to us, but that is the way it is in this particular country (his cousins are physicians).

                                                                          I don't know what the answer is, but junking our current system for a few is NOT the answer.

                                                                            #6.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
                                                                            Carlos Toadvine

                                                                            Personal responsibility, its a code word, hate speech, it means...personal responsibility! Who has heard of such a crazy idea! It's nobodies fault they are overweight. Its the advertising executives and the restaurant chains making money by selling food (PROFIT) that slows down the metabolism and creates a desire to play video games and watchTV, add an occasional joint and it's a toxic mix. Its way beyond the individuals control. We need a blue ribbon panel of experts commissioned by congress to outline a plan to combat these evil influences. I believe only the government with its omnipotent powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men can solve this dilemma. Quick call the President (aka Superman) , lets get busy the haters are at work! SAVE US.

                                                                              #6.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
                                                                              choochoo-1167113

                                                                              Hi, Ed. Some additions to the list: Limit hours of operation for taverns, casinos and bars; make community volunteering to help shut ins and elderly people mandatory for all healthy people; make community gardens accessible to everyone; make sure that all health-fragile people in your community have heat in their homes in winter, air conditioning in summer and healthy food all year.

                                                                                #6.9 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:56 PM EDT
                                                                                choochoo-1167113

                                                                                GK, you are right. Obesity is not the only problem. How about people who are underweight? How about illegal drug abusers? How about people with skinny legs? It could be because they don't exercise enough. How about people who exercise too much and harm themselves? How about people who drink coffee, which is a stimulant? What about people who are materialistic and addicted to shopping? What about people with low IQs? The point is this- do we want government or insurance companies dictating our lives?

                                                                                  #6.10 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:21 PM EDT
                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                  burnecho

                                                                                  Good luck getting all of these food stamp card purchasing people around here to go on a diet! They don't get out of bed until noon and then its off to get alcohol and fast food paid for by the tax payers. I watch them walk in front of my office every day to the store. Not one in two years has stopped to ask if we are hiring. I guess that short walk and sitting under a tree for the rest of the afternoon is their exercise. These people wouldn't help themselves if they were on fire much less diet and exercise!

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  Reply#7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:51 AM EDT
                                                                                  LU-404506

                                                                                  I have never understood why a person can buy junk food and soda pop on food stamps. That abuse needs to stop.

                                                                                  Did you know that you can purchase vegetable seeds with food stamps? I'm sure it rarely happens, but at least it's an option for people.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #7.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
                                                                                  Suzanne H-1246248

                                                                                  At least with WIK, people are limited on what they can purchase - milk, peanut butter, etc.  No soda pop and junk food for them.  It would be nice if junk food didn't qualify to be purchased with food stamps.  Also, in the article it mentioned how fast food/junk food is so much cheaper than fresh...  I have no problems purchasing healthy food on a budget.  I think that the majority of people don't want to take the time to prepare the food.  Nobody has time anymore to actually make dinner?  I find cooking a nice way to wind down from work and much better than a trip through the drive-through.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #7.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:31 AM EDT
                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                  burnecho....Ever hear of Workfare? My state has it and it has significantly lowered welfare rolls.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #7.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
                                                                                  JEREMY-664722

                                                                                  i bet people would eat in more if they had to drive 20 miles to see a fast food restaurant. by the time you add gas to the cost of your Mc Nasty buger, it's cheaper to buy groceries and eat at home.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #7.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                  Jeremy....Those of us who never were "Haves" know best how to pinch our pennies and it isn't eating out at McDonald's five days a week. Ugh.

                                                                                    #7.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:09 PM EDT
                                                                                    choochoo-1167113

                                                                                    Burnecho, your banter is appalling. While other people sit under a tree, you sit and watch them. While they go to a store, you sit on your butt and blog. While they are peaceful, you spew words of hate and negative criticism. While they are quiet, you make value judgements and ASSumptions. Now, who is the unhealthy one?

                                                                                      #7.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:08 PM EDT
                                                                                      choochoo-1167113

                                                                                      LU, you seem to think that low income individuals should not have the right to purchase foods that other people do. Shame on you.

                                                                                        #7.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:11 PM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                        Bad bob-533642

                                                                                        Our attack on obesity should start with the prohibition of growth hormones given to cattle and chickens.

                                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                                        Reply#8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:54 AM EDT
                                                                                        JMHartleyCAE

                                                                                        Behavior, choice, and responsibility are complicated issues. The story raises some interesting examples i.e. disease form unprotected sexal activity, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, etc. Here's another, unintended pregnacy.

                                                                                        If health care is to be a basic right regardless of one's ability to pay, who gets to decide about other people's behavior?

                                                                                        If health care is a product that one purchases (and insures those purchases) it depends on how much one is willing or able to spend. That's the individual's responsibility.

                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                        Reply#9 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:54 AM EDT
                                                                                        ewent

                                                                                        JMHartley...Normally, I would agree on the responsibility thing. There's one factor it ignores...the heinous cost of health care itself. If people with cancer could afford to pay out of pocket, don't you think they would? It comes down to what is being charged for health care...not who pays and who doesn't. Everyone who has ever worked around Big Pharma knows what a rip off that industry is to Americans. If they can sell the same trade name drug to foreign countries at a quarter of the price, why are they charge Americans $200 a pill for the same drug?

                                                                                        The answer is to rein in cost of health care. It is unaffordable. One car accident, one broken leg and you are thousands in debt. And, in most cases your HMO deductible is higher than the cost of the treatment. So you pay more out of pocket anyway. Reform is now. Or, there won't be any healthy people left in this country except those who can afford good health.

                                                                                        • 5 votes
                                                                                        #9.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
                                                                                        chop007

                                                                                        ewent--

                                                                                        By the time those with coverage and a few dollars are taxed to death, we'll all be in the same boat. Who will pay then?

                                                                                          #9.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:48 PM EDT
                                                                                          dubina

                                                                                          Well said, ewent.

                                                                                            #9.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:22 PM EDT
                                                                                            ewent

                                                                                            chop007 - Those with covered already ARE taxed to death...and earning less as a result of greedy employers whose bottom line isn't profit sharing ...it's profit...theirs. It's already coming down to employees losing raises whenever the employer uses health care as his/her excuse not to have to do the honorable thing and pay fair wages. If this continues on the present course, every working class American will be competing for the cheapest cheap labor countries because there is no punishment for American businessmen who sell out their own country for greed.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #9.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:00 PM EDT
                                                                                            Persevere

                                                                                            Citizens – Friends

                                                                                            Just back from working, re-read my last post and apologize for the typos, I was in a hurry. Have to make the buck.

                                                                                            I have read nearly every post and many bring me to laughter, I mean my wife came into my home office and had to ask what the hell was so funny?

                                                                                            Ewent and other sane thinkers keep up the good fight and never give up. Sorry to repeat myself. Don't get tired like that "what's his face "? said he was.

                                                                                            I have but one idea to throw into the mix, I learned along time ago, that in the governance of our country, to understand what and whom is controlling the agenda to follow this adage. The simple phrase, came from the Watergate hearings, that kept me glued to the television for day after day that turned into week after week And that smilingly simple truth has never let me down. NEVER.

                                                                                            FOLLOW THE MONEY….FOLLOW THE MONEY….FOLLOW THE MONEY

                                                                                            FOLLOW THE MONEY…..FOLLOW THE MONEY….FOLLOW THE MONEY

                                                                                            FOLLOW THE MONEY…..FOLLOW THE MONEY…..FOLLOW THE MONEY

                                                                                            FOLLOW THE MONEY…..FOLLOW THE MONEY…..FOLLOW THE MONEY

                                                                                            FOLLOW THE MONEY…..FOLLOW THE MONEY…..FOLLOW THE MONEY

                                                                                            Final post for now, have to chase the buck, no money no food no shelter….So it goes

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #9.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:31 PM EDT
                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                            3rdpartyadvocate

                                                                                            Governor Huckabee lost over 100 pounds about two years ago. When asked how he did it his answer should be a wake up call to everyone.

                                                                                            1) Eat real food.

                                                                                            2) If it wasn't a food 100 years ago, it's not food today.

                                                                                            3) If it comes through the car wondow it's not real food.

                                                                                            4) Start walking.

                                                                                            OK all this is great and worked for him but the reason the health care plan will not include obesity for a reason to charge higher prices is that most of the people who eat the most unhealthy foods are the poor folks on food stamps, ADC, SChips and so on. These people make up a huge portion of the dems voting block so it's not going to happen.

                                                                                            Also they show a doughnut as a *fat producing* food. OK I'll agree with that but, there are other foods just as bad or worse than that. Like peanut butter (trans fat bonanza), processed grains that make white bread, hot dog buns, hamburger buns etc (turn into instant sugar).

                                                                                            And there is the matter of metabolism. My sister was always about 112 lbs most of her life. At age 31 she was treated for a heart condition called A-Fib. She was given a powerful drug that began to destroy her Thyroid. Eventually her thyroid had to be killed and although she is back to a good heart health, her metabolism has been reduced to nothing and she has gained 50 lbs. She still works out, she has cut back to 700 calories and vitamins and still cannot lose 1 lb. So should she forced to be payed a HIGHER price for her heath care because a medicine she trusted a Dr to prescribe destroyed her thyroid.?

                                                                                            You cannot put out a blanket statement that if you are fat (or unhealthy in any way) you should pay more.

                                                                                            • 4 votes
                                                                                            Reply#10 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                                                                            terry -1017523

                                                                                            Good read..

                                                                                              #10.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:10 AM EDT
                                                                                              Sharon-287953

                                                                                              So Rush is a DEM? Get serious this is both parties.

                                                                                                #10.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
                                                                                                schmadrian

                                                                                                'Cook fresh food. Be active. Have fun.'

                                                                                                That's my version of Michael Pollard's credo from 'In Defense of Food'.

                                                                                                (In an article from him recently, someone else was quoted as saying: "You can eat anything you want and do fine...as long as you cook it yourself." Which is why I phrase it the way I do, above.)

                                                                                                We got to this state (obesity pandemic, Type II diabetes, heart disease and arthritis running rampant) over the span of four decades. Just like flood waters fall far slower than they rise, this is going to take a heartbreakingly long time to remedy.

                                                                                                But it all begins with putting one step in front of the other...and getting active.

                                                                                                  #10.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:30 AM EDT
                                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                                  How many hours a day does Governor Huckabee have to drive to work? How many hours is he at his desk earning a living so he can afford health care? What a sorry example to give. Huckabee is or was a civil servant....not a worry in the world about health care till he dies. The working class travels longer hours and works longer days than any generation before it. Where in all of the time they are at their jobs are they supposed to stop and exercise? I'd love to see the first employer who'd allow breaks from jobs for an hour or two of exercise. By the time these people arrive home at night, they have all they can do to check their kids homework and do a few things around the house.

                                                                                                  There must be an awful lot of really lazy people who have time to criticize the lives of others out there. Working people spend their weekends getting plenty of exercise...mowing their grass, cleaning house and running a million errands they can't do during the week because they work. Forget it if they hold down more than one full time job and these days...most do. This is the reality a lot of conservatives want to ignore.

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #10.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:00 PM EDT
                                                                                                  theclansman

                                                                                                  Good point, 3rd party!

                                                                                                    #10.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
                                                                                                    JEREMY-664722

                                                                                                    ewent, check their kids homework? i thought teachers did that. it doesn't matter what huckabee is. he lost weight by following a few rules. i also beleive it really doesn't matter what you eat, but how much of it you eat. nothing comes in single servings anymore. if people ate single servings and not all they can or whats in the package, ie chips, candy bars, sodas, they would be healthier.

                                                                                                      #10.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:07 PM EDT
                                                                                                      chop007

                                                                                                      Being obese is not the same thing as being slightly overweight or having a medical condition. No one wants to penalize someone for having a problem that is NOT their fault and the treatment sometimes is worse that the original problem. If you do the right things, your insurance should not penalized you.

                                                                                                      If you choose to NOT do the right thing and are morbidly obese because you eat cookies and soda all day, that is another story.

                                                                                                        #10.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:52 PM EDT
                                                                                                        Go Longhorns

                                                                                                        chop

                                                                                                        i agree, if you will agree that those that choose not to go to school and study as hard and make the best grades and work as hard don't get to live off other's taxes. why can't y'all have a consistent argument about this stuff as opposed to applying personal responsibility selectively when it is convient?

                                                                                                          #10.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                                                                                                          justice fleeting

                                                                                                          News Just In.

                                                                                                          Pelosi calls all who object to this health care reform "un-American". That right from the horses mouth or the jackasses lips.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          #10.9 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                          ewent

                                                                                                          Jeremy...No...parents in my state are required to help their children or at best monitor homework. As for teachers...NJ has THE highest teacher salaries in the nation. They don't check homework. Teachers aides do that. When you work from 9 until 3 PM 10 months of the year, you can't be expected to check homework, can you?

                                                                                                          I was a professional dancer and dance teacher. Know any of those who are fat? Know any who get fat and can't fit into leotard and tights? Know any who aren't health nuts? Huckabee will never have to worry about HIS healthcare...civil service ...remember?

                                                                                                            #10.10 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                            michael bobier

                                                                                                            i have a novel idea. this is america jerks. get the hell out of my business and my life. what i do does not pertain to you in one little bit. if i choose to eat a donut then i am pursuing my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of my happiness. if you don't like it then come on over we can discuss my other given right under the constituion.

                                                                                                            • 12 votes
                                                                                                            Reply#11 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:56 AM EDT
                                                                                                            cb78750

                                                                                                            Well, if your fat, you should pay higher health insurance premiums. It's not fair that those of us who do our best to take care of ourselves should have to pay for the healthcare of someone who is not. That is capitalism at it's best. So go ahead and eat the donuts, but don't expect me to pay for your diabetes and high blood pressure medications. Again; Personal responsibility!

                                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                                            #11.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:05 AM EDT
                                                                                                            Entrepreneur-20036

                                                                                                            Your behavior does pertain to us if your poor health is costing the rest of us more in insurance premiums. While I'm also not keen on the government coming in and telling us how to live our lives, I think it is reasonable for insurance companies to encourage better health by rewarding those of us who practice healthy behavior. If I don't smoke, am not overweight, and exercise regularly, shouldn't I pay lower premiums?

                                                                                                              #11.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                              LU-404506

                                                                                                              I have no problem with you eating the donut.

                                                                                                              The problem is that you're going to want medical attention to combat your diabetes, obesity, and other health problems associated with your poor choices.

                                                                                                              As long as you're willing to die instead of expecting the medical industry to keep you alive, then stuff yourself, I don't care.

                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                              #11.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:51 AM EDT
                                                                                                              Go Longhorns

                                                                                                              when all the citizens pay at the 35% tax bracket like I do they can start to tell me how to eat.  if you guys wanna play the "your costing me more than my fair share game" I bet all of us in the top few % that pay the majority of the taxes in this country would love that discussion.  i am fine with you having lower premiums as long as i get a rebate on my taxes for all of the services provided by our gov't that i don't use.   i think you all are on to something great here; everyone in this country pays their own way.  I am all for that one!!!!!!!!  let's divide the governments budget by 330 million people and send out the bills.

                                                                                                              • 4 votes
                                                                                                              #11.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:18 PM EDT
                                                                                                              T-in-TEXAS

                                                                                                              This is something I thought I would NEVER say...way to Go Longhorns!!! I, too, am sick of paying for services that I'll never use. I want my rebate check! Let me know when you get yours so I can be on the lookout for mine...HA. WHOOP WHOOP

                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                              #11.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:01 PM EDT
                                                                                                              ewent

                                                                                                              michael bobier...Atta boy Mike...You go guy. I'm about as fed up with petty, selfish Americans who need to get a life. All they know how to do these days is put on their makeup, have their bazongas enlarged and make Clairol richer than rich. It was inevitable after the Bush Administration used that datamining that it would backfire on the rest of us and start categorizing and labeling everybody. Now, they have all the data they need to start defining who gets to exercise, lose weight, stay healthy and grow into a cocoon society that is afraid of every damn germ.

                                                                                                              I watch as mothers these days all but wrap their kids in cotton batting. No wonder they are immune to antiobiotics. Who wouldn't be in such a sterile, prissyass world?

                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                              #11.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:05 PM EDT
                                                                                                              ewent

                                                                                                              GoLongHorns...Don't make me laugh. I sat next to one of your fellow stateman on an airplane. A bigger gut I've yet to find. And, don't deny that Texas is a big redmeat state. Along with all the other "red" ideology I'm guessing. That dude on the plane was breathing so hard, his T for Texas cowboy hat was jiggling on his head.

                                                                                                                #11.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
                                                                                                                12345-908903

                                                                                                                All you posters who oppose "paying for" other people's personal behaviors had better watch out. You could find yourselves afflicted with a genetic disease (just bad luck - but why are people with genetic diseases allowed to have children?), or be bitten by a deer tick and get Lyme Disease, or be bitten by a poisonous snake because you are too stupid not to walk in the woods, or you could be run over by a car because you didn't look both ways dummy, or have all your bones crushed in a train wreck because the driver (probably you) was texting their friends, or hit by a bus as you cross the road because you couldn't be bothered to look both ways, or be burned in a house, car or airplane fire that you caused through your carelessness, or be shot or stabbed by some freak that you managed to provoke as you supposedly walk down the street minding your own business, or catch an infection in a hospital, or scratch yourself and get septicemia, or catch an infection from a friend or family member, or a stranger, because you weren't smart enough to stay away from a sick person, or get food poisoning because you weren't careful to refrigerate your food, or whatever. Since you refuse to pay for coverage for people who don't fit your profile of a healthy person, those people should not have to pay for any of your supposedly unfortunate, unforeseen events you encounter. Be prepared to heal yourselves.

                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                #11.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
                                                                                                                choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                Enterpreuner: Even if you don't eat donuts, etc. can you guarantee that you will never be involved in an auto accident, slip and fall, get bit by a tick, have any kind of accident, never get sick, etc.? Maybe you will have MS some day or . . . guess what! Maybe you will grow old!

                                                                                                                  #11.9 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:06 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                  JenInAtlanta

                                                                                                                  Please stop trying to stop the personal responsibility conversation by bringing children into it.  Children already suffer for their parents mistakes and/or stupidity so this is just one more way they are impacted. 

                                                                                                                  The idea of personality responsiblity and its consequences needs to be introduced as soon as possible into this conversation.  Likewise, if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, I should not be obligated to provide medical assistance for you..... Eat yourself to 400+ lbs then I should not have to pay for your care either.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                  Reply#12 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:00 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  3rdpartyadvocate

                                                                                                                  What if you are child carrying genes that make you a diabetic, down syndrome, or other disease that show up later in life? Should we just do a DNA of the fetus and if found to be a life long burden on the Amercian health care system require the host (mother or culture dish) to abort?

                                                                                                                  How are you going to prove a person at 400 lbs ate their way to that size and how many psychiatrists are going to say that people who do that aren't mentally ill in some way?

                                                                                                                  You are turning yourself into a God when ever you make a decision when a human being deserves to live.

                                                                                                                  I take comfort in knowing there is an extremely hot place in hell awaiting those *perfect people*.

                                                                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                                                                  #12.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:09 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  GK-298121

                                                                                                                  3rd party - I was waiting for someone to open that can of worms!

                                                                                                                  Our ability to diagnose in-utero outpaces our ability to treat in-utero. A child born w/ major birth defects will cost a fortune, from birth to death, and I don't think taxpayers should bear that burden. I'm also tired of religion putting a guilt trip on women who have abortions in these circumstances, but that's for another message board...

                                                                                                                  I don't like Caribou Barbie, but it is good she quit to improve her finances. Trig is unlikely to become a contributing member to society, but she is one of the rare ones taking steps to ensure the taxpayer don't bear the financial burden for her choosing to have a child she knew was going to be messed up before birth.

                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                  #12.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:49 AM EDT
                                                                                                                  Gregorovich

                                                                                                                  Right on Jen. Let's charge more for the overweight, smokers, drinkers, those who have children even though they know they are genetically predisposed to have Cystic Fibrosis, MS, Down syndrom, etc. Oh, and those who have risky sex, don't use sunscreen, participate in extreme sports and those who talk or text on the phone while driving. Speaking of driving, those people who have more than 1 speeding ticket in a 6 month period are asking for higher rates. And if I catch one more person not holding a 5 year-old or younger person's hand while crosisng the street, I'm going to report them also.

                                                                                                                  People who make choices that affect medical costs should pay more....all of them. And believe me, I'm watching all of you and you're all doing something out there that I find that should be charged for.

                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                  #12.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:42 PM EDT
                                                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                                                  JennyinAtlanta...I agree with you. There is not a way to reinvent people's cultural backgrounds. Every generation of immigrants came to this country with some disease born in their mother country for generations...diabetes chief among them. Any culture that relied on potatoes as a staple of diet did so not because they didn't want to eat health. It was because it was all they had to eat. Is there a way to reverse that? In my father's country, Mediterranean disease is centuries old and is now related to Sarcoidosis. While eating healthy may make some diseases less virulent, it will not remove them completely. It seems there are people on this thread who are so far and long removed from the realities of the early American immigrants that they think you wave a magic wand and Utopia is theirs.

                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                  #12.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:17 PM EDT
                                                                                                                  addiem

                                                                                                                  Jenn - agreed, maybe schools can be encouraged to do more for kids with obesity problems, including their parents. My brother's only child began to be obese at age four, and when he entered kindergarten - weighed a hundred pounds! The family was aghast when seeing this (they did not live close). That boy was not buying the groceries, it was the parents' fault. The poor kid was teased of course in school.

                                                                                                                  Now, no big surprise, the boy is now a 300+ pound adult, uneducated, well meaning but about to be a father with a Medicaid paid for baby. (Go figure - but the girlfriend may weigh more than the dad to be.) Elementary age intervention would have been helpful for this kid with parents in denial.

                                                                                                                  With a national health care plan, the baby wouldn't have had to be born a "bast@rd", the parents would have married if they had any health insurance. (Neither did, working minumum wage jobs, could barely pay for themselves to live.)

                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                  #12.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:52 PM EDT
                                                                                                                  choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                  JeninAtlanta: Interestingly, a person who weighs 400+ lbs. either has a physical medical condition (hypothyroidismor ?) or a serious psychological problem(obsessive compulsive behavior or ?). In either case, they would need treatment. Your statement that "I should not be obligated to provide medical assistance for you" is clearly coming from a place of a misinformed obese ego. What in the world would make you think that you pay for every one els's health care? Is it some sort of contagious paranoia? I've noticed that it spreads like a virus among some bloggers.

                                                                                                                    #12.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:32 PM EDT
                                                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                                                    Bighorn

                                                                                                                    The problem with health care is with the insurance costs not the actual healthcare delivery system itself. People want reforms in how they pay for the services NOT a change in how their personal care is implemented. Why tear down the entire building just to remodel one room?

                                                                                                                    Why not fix this first:

                                                                                                                    People should be able to purchase insurance across state lines to spur competition in rates

                                                                                                                    Everyone should be able to get insurance even with a pre-existing condition...they might pay more but they will be covered.

                                                                                                                    Emphasize PREVENTION....do away with unnecessary snacks at schools, start a real campaign about physical fitness and require it in elementary through high schools DAILY...give financial breaks to persons who are physically fit, don't smoke or are not overweight by 20 pounds or more. This can be done by requiring a complete physical to be done every year in order to keep insurance active. Why not? In order to keep your license on your car it has to be registered yearly...this way the insurance company can keep track of people's weight gains, blood pressure etc...to determine cost to individuals. It also helps people keep better track of their health and not let things go that should be attended to.

                                                                                                                    Do away with frivolous lawsuits to bring down malpractice costs to doctors/hospitals

                                                                                                                    Clean up fraud in medicare/medicaid programs and streamline for better efficiency

                                                                                                                    Maintain portability with insurance if people move out of state for a new job

                                                                                                                    Cover the truly indigent with a government sponsored "catastrophic care" policy...and require everyone to carry some sort of insurance even if they are young just like auto insurance requirements for cars if you have a driver's license. Young people may not get sick as often but they are can become injured.

                                                                                                                    No government sponsored insurance to ILLEGAL ALIENS OR THEIR FAMILIES....

                                                                                                                    At least the above is a start in the right direction but keep the government out of the business of micro-managing everyone's healthcare.....which will become a total disaster for all of us and bankrupt the nation within ten years COMPLETELY! What good will government healthcare be if it is only something on paper and we are all in the poorhouse with a worthless currency!!!!

                                                                                                                    • 7 votes
                                                                                                                    Reply#13 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:02 AM EDT
                                                                                                                    retired nc

                                                                                                                    Bighorn everything you've said is common sense. The whole idea of government reform(universal health care) would probably never have come up if the heath care industry and government would use a little of it.

                                                                                                                    • 2 votes
                                                                                                                    #13.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:21 AM EDT
                                                                                                                    archangel316

                                                                                                                    I applaud you for your common sense. This is the core of the health care problem that keeps getting swept under the rug!

                                                                                                                      #13.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
                                                                                                                      Suzanne H-1246248

                                                                                                                      "Emphasize PREVENTION"

                                                                                                                      It would be great to have a "real" campaign to increase physical activity and better nutrition - from preschool through twelfth grade (at least). This schouldn't be too hard to enact either, if we had the support from our government and states. As far as nutrition is concerned - you should see what the kids are being fed at a lot of the schools... I won't even buy food at the cafeteria during my lunch. French fries 4 out of 5 days a week, no vegetarian options... sometimes, I'll look at a kid's lunch and it's completely yellow - fries, macaroni and cheese, breadstick. Some kids just wait until the cafeteria brings out the chips and candy - the kids will make a whole lunch out of chocolate and chips. It's gross. Then, the kids come into class after, all hopped up on sugar.

                                                                                                                        #13.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:50 AM EDT
                                                                                                                        ewent

                                                                                                                        BigHorn...Here's the real skinny. You've got people out there who are scared of health care reform because it might be socialized medicine...What then is Medicare and the government workers health plans? Then, you hear that there won't be any choice in health care. Is that really better than allowing your employer to decide he wants your health to be compromised by HIS choice of the cheapest HMO? Then, there's the matter of who is going to lose most if health care reform manages to become law....lawyers....think about what happens if no one can sue for injuries in auto accidents? No huge backlog in the courts and no huge payouts by auto insurers. Of course, that means that the auto insurers won't make as much profit if they are on the receiving end. See what I mean? Lawyers? Big Insurance? And the connection is? Moolah.

                                                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                                                        #13.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:26 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        Go Longhorns

                                                                                                                        hey ewent

                                                                                                                        if the plan is so great, why did congress vote to keep their own plan and not participate in the one all of us get?

                                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                                        #13.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:59 PM EDT
                                                                                                                        ewent

                                                                                                                        GoLonghorns...I think their vote is still subject to change. This bill hasn't passed both houses of Congress. Last week, Obama alluded to "the same kind of plan the government offers its employees". Got a problem with that?

                                                                                                                          #13.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:13 PM EDT
                                                                                                                          tony-268769

                                                                                                                          Longhorns...

                                                                                                                          Because the plan...or various plans on the table all suck, that's why.

                                                                                                                            #13.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                            tony-268769

                                                                                                                            ewent...

                                                                                                                            The president is lying to you...at this point he doesn't even have a plan in hand, so how does he know what will eventually be offered to anyone. He doesn't.

                                                                                                                              #13.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:18 PM EDT
                                                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                                                              rbryan6150

                                                                                                                              As a health care professional for over 25 years, I could not agree with this article more. While it is easy to blame the insurance industry, they have done what the market dictated. They have made a product available and so attractive that it became a disincentive for individuals to take personal accountability for their own choices. If you are looking for someone or something to blame, you need only go back to the start of Medicare, which shifted health care coverage from something available for catastrophic illness or injury, to one that paid for nearly everything. Commercial payers followed suit and we are where we are today. Diseases associated with self-abuse are prevalent due to our poor habits, smoking, over eating, over-indulging on pretty much anything we can, and a lack of exercise. Although I am certainly no great admirer of commercial insurers, the blame is a shared one. Each of us must become accountable for our own health, push away from the table sooner, walk away from those ultra appealing foods and beverages, and keep walking for at least thirty minutes per day. That is when the health care costs in this country will begin to stabilize and drop.

                                                                                                                                Reply#14 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:05 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                gattes12

                                                                                                                                Seeing all these great idea is so interesting. People now want to dictate someone's lifestyle to keep heatlh insurance costs down.

                                                                                                                                “It just makes me very upset when I have to pay more and more taxes to support government health care programs and have to work longer and longer hours to help a lot of people that just don’t seem to care,” he wrote.

                                                                                                                                Did I miss something? When did taxes rise to the point where he has had to work longer hours? Mine didn't. I can't believe this flat-out lie even made it to print.

                                                                                                                                Here is why these changes in lifestyle (although a good idea) won't work.

                                                                                                                                1) It will be Government-driven which in itself will be perceived as a problem

                                                                                                                                2) Smokers and the industry will fight.

                                                                                                                                3) Drinkers and the industry will fight.

                                                                                                                                4) Junk food eaters and the fast food industry will fight.

                                                                                                                                5) To promote more exercise, Gas prices would have to go back to $4.00+ per gallon. Everyone would fight this.

                                                                                                                                6) The use of complex healthcare services would decrease leaving a gap in an industry competing with Government pricewise. The insurance industry and the doctors would eventually fight this.

                                                                                                                                7) Because of #6 the health care sector would appear to be less lucrative and therefore less people.

                                                                                                                                8) #2,3, and 4 would add to unemployment levels as mass downsizing would most definitely occur.

                                                                                                                                This article is pure BS.

                                                                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                Reply#15 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:09 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                LU-404506

                                                                                                                                They're already running ads in Nevada fighting a tax on soda pop.

                                                                                                                                The ad states that they're are going to tax "fruit juice" and soda pop, which is a misconception.

                                                                                                                                No one's advocating taxing healthy drinks.

                                                                                                                                  #15.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:56 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                                                                  Lu..Alabama already has a tax on the obese. Sounds strange I know. But, they found a way to tax people whose weight increases and aren't in wellness programs.

                                                                                                                                    #15.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:27 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                    gattes12

                                                                                                                                    LU and that is exactly the problem.

                                                                                                                                    Who is going to dictate who drinks what?

                                                                                                                                    Remember the response to the sin taxes?

                                                                                                                                    What is being eluded to here is to tax anything that is not with the "standard".

                                                                                                                                    Sound familiar?

                                                                                                                                      #15.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                      choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                      ewent, get real. The public is not going to get "the same kind of health plan that congress gets". The president said that long ago (during his campaign), but it's not what he is saying now. What he is saying now is that, like congress, the public will have a "menu of choices". Did he say that they would be the same choices that congress has? NO! Did he say that every choice would be fully paid by tax dollars, as congress' choices are? NO! Sometimes it's as important, if not more so, to hear what IS NOT BEING SAID as to hear what IS being said. Politicians are sneaky ones.

                                                                                                                                        #15.4 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                                                        John Luma-1038450

                                                                                                                                        45 million Americans can't afford health care, don't have it (me), and it's a system out of control, yet now the powers that be say (the health care industry, Republicans, those covered mostly by their employers) say, well, no, we don't really want to change anything.

                                                                                                                                        Basically, the people WHO WOULD NOT BE AFFECTED BY A PUBLIC OPTION (you don't have to change what you have) simply don't want to pay taxes for those who can't pay for private coverage.

                                                                                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                        Reply#16 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:11 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                        cs1701a

                                                                                                                                        You're right about not wanting to pay.The reason most people are against a public option is because it will lead to a single payer system, Obama & Frank have both stated this. Most people don't want that and will speak up against it.

                                                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                        #16.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                        Brent in WI

                                                                                                                                        John, you're the first poster that I've noticed that mentioned the uninsured. I can relate, as I've been without insurance (once after being laid off, and once while self-employed). The costs for insurance, if you don't get it thru your employer, are staggering, and the coverage is usually very limited. If people think the public option would limit their healthcare, they should take some time to read their own company-sponsored policies - you don't have anywhere near as much freedom of choice as you think.

                                                                                                                                        One other thing that people might want to think about - your taxes pay for police and firemen to help out you and your neighbors in case of emergencies. Do you want to try to live without these services being accessible to all? Why is it so difficult to realize that helping out your neighbor with healthcare coverage comes with benefits? Say you have a neighbor on your street that you are good friend's with, and he was laid off and can't afford the COBRA premiums (very few unemployed can afford them). The neighbor's wife has had breast cancer diagnosed, and was just to start receiving treatments when the husband was laid off, so now they can't afford to get the treatments.

                                                                                                                                        Should we as a society just let these people die?

                                                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                        #16.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                        ewent

                                                                                                                                        CS1701...Is that what you are so afraid of? A single payer system? Let me clue you in to 2009 Health care realities as I know it: $40 copays for 90-prescriptions for GENERIC drugs. $40 copay for a visit to a primary care physician. $50, if it's a specialist. But, you don't go to the specialist unless you first lay out $40 to the primary care physician who plays watchdog over the specialists, even though the PC doctor has no experience in any speciality field. Forget hospital deductible...$5,000. One trip to the emergency room and you'll lay out that amount and anything the HMO chooses not to cover. You want to know why the average American can't afford their employer's HMO plan anymore? That's it. 10% of your annual income goes to copays for an employer-offered HMO.

                                                                                                                                        In one year, I pay well over what it would cost for a single payer health care plan. I'd rather pay out $1,000 a year for better health care than $2500 a year for the halfassed plan my employer offers.

                                                                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                        #16.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:36 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                        chop007

                                                                                                                                        Here's the thing that most folks don't understand:

                                                                                                                                        If you have healthcare through your employer, you can keep it. Great.

                                                                                                                                        The government tells other employers that if you don't offer insurance to your employees, we will fine you and that money will go into a "pot" for the public plan.

                                                                                                                                        If the cost of supplying insurance to employees costs $5,000 a month (just say, I have no idea) and the "penalty" is only $2,000 per month, GUESS WHAT???

                                                                                                                                        BINGO!!! Score one for the first phase of socialized medicine. Employers will be looking for the bottom line and saving money. It's cheaper to pay the fine than to provide coverage for your employees. YOU will have no say in the matter and this will give the government just what they want.

                                                                                                                                          #16.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:07 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                          tony-268769

                                                                                                                                          chop...

                                                                                                                                          Not bad.....are you saying that this health care plan ( if we ever see one ) is really a plan to grab the money from businesses as a "fine" rather than as a "tax" ???

                                                                                                                                          That's actually brilliant !!! The government can find ways to "fine" people or businesses for whatever they choose and then campaign for re-election and say with a straight face "I haven't raised your taxes one dime".

                                                                                                                                          You have to get yourself a job application for the Obama White House...they'd love the way you think ???

                                                                                                                                            #16.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                            choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                            BRENTinWI, the thing that most people don't realize is that they already have insurance for situations such as you have described (one spouse is seriously ill and the other spouse is unemployed) are already covered. Uncle Sam takes big bucks out of every employee's paycheck which go to pay for government insurance programs like Medicaid and Medicare. So, when a situation like you described happens, the folks are covered. We all pay for it. We all have the coverage. There are certain requirements, of course. If you didn't pay taxes (premiums) you can't get coverage, etc. Like social security, you have to have paid into it. It's not free, like some silly bloggers will try to tell you, but we pay for it before we need it, just like private insurance.

                                                                                                                                              #16.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:51 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                              choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                              John Luma, you're absolutely right. Another thing they don't want is the people who already have government insurance- like low income children (SCHIP), the elderly (Medicare) and the disabled (Medicaid). Think about it.

                                                                                                                                                #16.7 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:38 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                                D Merriam

                                                                                                                                                Why is anyone surprised that people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions (and the consequences thereof)? We have been actively creating a society for the last 4+ decades that has elevated being a "victim" to a preferred status.

                                                                                                                                                Problems with your job? "I have adult ADD" Problems with your marriage? "Well, my parents had a bad marriage, so I didn't know any better" Problems with self-esteem or self-contol? "My parent was (insert one) abusive, an alcoholic, emotionally abusive, emotionally distant, emotionally smothering", etc etc. Problems of any sort? Oh, look around long enough and I'm sure I'll find a reason that ITS NOT MY FAULT.

                                                                                                                                                We are reaping the benefits of having taught people to think this way. Why should we have the nerve to be surprised when they actually ACT this way???

                                                                                                                                                Now we want to expand health insurance coverage to include an entire group of people who in many cases have not taken any responsibility for themselves at any other point in their lives, and spread the risk and expense to society as a whole. At least some of the people in our society have made some attempt to be responsible, and they are being asked to "pay the freight" for those who have actively chosen not to be responsible. Is it any wonder people are angry about the proposed changes in health care?

                                                                                                                                                The more you insulate people from the consequences of making bad choices, the more bad choices they will make. I realize this is a generalization, but it is hard to argue with the underlying logic and truth of the statement. Harsh? Yes. Uncomfortable to discuss? Yes. True? In most cases (there are always exceptions) yes. Most people have only to look in the nearest mirror to find out where the problems lie.

                                                                                                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                Reply#17 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:12 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                ewent

                                                                                                                                                DMerriam...While I agree with you on most of your post about choices, some people do the right thing and still get bit by dangerous insects, like Lyme ticks, mosquitoes and spiders. Then, there's the matter of diseases over which you have absolutely NO choice. Do you think Lou Gehrig had a choice when he developed ALS? Or people who have Huntington's in their genetic makeup? What should we do about those with Leukemia? Alzheimer's...Choices?

                                                                                                                                                My fear is that life is becoming so cheapened by the greedmongers in our society that we are developing into a culture of death.

                                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                #17.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                                                commonsense-1

                                                                                                                                                I wonder what the savings would be if we'd all started taking personal responsibility for our health.

                                                                                                                                                You know, exercising 30 minutes a day; eating low-carb, low-fat meals; maybe take a vitamin supplement or two; put yourself in the drivers seat when it comes to testing and procedures (make some decisions for yourself, your doc doesn't know everything. Do a little research. Maybe you could ask what the options are to taking drugs for the rest of your life rather than being a fatalist); take a look at the bill (nothing's ever free) and question the high cost.

                                                                                                                                                We see these town hall imbroglios, but how many people actually complain to their doctor so vociferously about high costs (how many actually have taken the time to figure out what the cost is?)

                                                                                                                                                Why isn't the government talking about retaining health? Why no tort reform? All these issues and all we're talking about is a government takeover of health care.

                                                                                                                                                Hmmm!

                                                                                                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                Reply#18 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:15 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                LU-404506

                                                                                                                                                I agree. There are a lot of important aspects of this bill that need to be ironed out.

                                                                                                                                                Playing party politics hurts all of us.

                                                                                                                                                It's not a football game. You're not going to "win" if nothing is done with our health care problem.

                                                                                                                                                  #18.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  commonsense-1

                                                                                                                                                  Do you just not get it? My comments are a criticism of this bill. Horrible things are going to happen if we do not take personal responsibility for our health. Just like if this ridiculous bill passes.

                                                                                                                                                  Look at it this way. Your driving down the street and some clown cuts you off. Now you could let off the gas and avoid an accident. But your stubborn. Your rights are being violated, so you gun it instead. Yeah, you've got insurance and he's probably got insurance, but your cars are still wrecked.

                                                                                                                                                  Same with your health. You can get stubborn and demand the government take care of you, but down the road your health is still wrecked. And guess what? The government doesn't care because that's exactly the role that it wants. To make you dependent on it. That's the death of freedom.

                                                                                                                                                  Maybe you haven't noticed. Government's supposed to work for you, not the other way around.

                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                  #18.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:19 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                  Brent in WI

                                                                                                                                                  "The government doesn't care because that's exactly the role that it wants. To make you dependent on it. That's the death of freedom."

                                                                                                                                                  This is what insurance companies, drug companies, etc thrive on, and make their profits on. You ARE dependent on them - don't kid yourself!

                                                                                                                                                    #18.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:25 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                    ewent

                                                                                                                                                    BrentinWI...Get real. The last thing any government wants is dependent citizens. However, if you are really looking for those who want dependency addicts, look no further than Big Pharma, Big HMO, Big Insurance and Lawyers. They are the ones with the most to lose if even half the population no longer needs them.

                                                                                                                                                    Your post is contradictory to reality. The government offers its employees the best health care plan...why? to make them dependent? Or, to keep them healthy enough to do their jobs?

                                                                                                                                                      #18.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:50 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                      ewent

                                                                                                                                                      commonsense...I once had a dance student who was 5 years old and was born with diabetes. If she didn't take insulin, she would go into a diabetic coma. Get real. There isn't a one size fits all for health care. I am a perfect example of a health freak who hiked 15 miles every weekend until unbeknownst to me I got bitten by a Lyme tick ...in my backyard. None of the hospitals in my area knew what to do about Lyme in 1990. As a result, it took 3 years of all kinds medicine and even alternative treatments to cure. Don't tell me it was my choice to get bitten by a tick in December when ticks in my state are supposed to be dormant. Don't tell me I asked for the illnesses that followed when a 6 year old one town away from me died from the lack of proper medical care for Lyme. Or that the emaciated 14 years old who ended up with a serious heart condition as a result of Lyme asked for it.

                                                                                                                                                      Grow up and stop with the prissyass BS.

                                                                                                                                                        #18.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:57 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                        Brent in WI

                                                                                                                                                        ewent - we're thinking alike. My post was in response to commonsense-1, which was why I started my post with something from his post

                                                                                                                                                        "The government doesn't care because that's exactly the role that it wants. To make you dependent on it. That's the death of freedom."

                                                                                                                                                        I totally agree with your statement "However, if you are really looking for those who want dependency addicts, look no further than Big Pharma, Big HMO, Big Insurance and Lawyers. They are the ones with the most to lose if even half the population no longer needs them."

                                                                                                                                                          #18.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:43 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                          choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                                          This article on personal health responsibility sure has a whole lot of people chasing their tales. I have read at least two credible articles which say that prevention efforts don't save dollars. They are not cost effective. It appears that the big players in health care reform are trying to put the onus on the public. Of course, Uncle Sam would benefit as well, having an excuse to deny claims. Let's not forget the private insurance industry as well. It's those folks who are now chasing their tales who would lose out. Wake up, people.

                                                                                                                                                            #18.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:01 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                                                                            jasperarkExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                                                                                                                                                            Fat people got no reason
                                                                                                                                                            Fat people got no reason
                                                                                                                                                            Fat people got no reason
                                                                                                                                                            To live

                                                                                                                                                            They got chubby hands
                                                                                                                                                            Big fat butts
                                                                                                                                                            They walk around
                                                                                                                                                            Eatin tons a donuts
                                                                                                                                                            They got a big wide nose
                                                                                                                                                            And fat little teeth
                                                                                                                                                            They can’t get shoes
                                                                                                                                                            On their big fat feet

                                                                                                                                                            Well, I don't want no fat people
                                                                                                                                                            Don't want no fat people
                                                                                                                                                            Don't want no fat people
                                                                                                                                                            `Round here

                                                                                                                                                            Fat people are just the same
                                                                                                                                                            As you and I
                                                                                                                                                            (A fool such as I)
                                                                                                                                                            All men are brothers
                                                                                                                                                            Until the day they die
                                                                                                                                                            (It's a wonderful world)

                                                                                                                                                            Fat people got nobody
                                                                                                                                                            Fat people got nobody
                                                                                                                                                            Fat people got nobody
                                                                                                                                                            To love

                                                                                                                                                            They got fat baby legs
                                                                                                                                                            That stand so low
                                                                                                                                                            You got to pick em up
                                                                                                                                                            With a big back hoe
                                                                                                                                                            They got big fat cars
                                                                                                                                                            That go beep, beep, beep
                                                                                                                                                            They got nasty voices
                                                                                                                                                            Goin' bleep bleep bleep
                                                                                                                                                            They got sausage fingers
                                                                                                                                                            And dirty fat minds
                                                                                                                                                            They're gonna get you every time
                                                                                                                                                            Well, I don't want no fat people
                                                                                                                                                            Don't want no fat people
                                                                                                                                                            Don't want no fat people
                                                                                                                                                            'Round here

                                                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                            Reply#19 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:16 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            HeelsnHairMetal

                                                                                                                                                            ::applause::

                                                                                                                                                            If you dont take care of your health, why should other people have to foot the bill to pay for your bad choices? I think its perfectly reasonable that you should have to pay more, just as I think obese people should be charged for 2 airplane seats if you take up more than your fair share. Nobody else is responsible if you eat yourself into oblivion, and if you have some sort of condition that makes you big, well, i fell sorry for you, but cough it up. Im not going to be inconvenienced to make your life easier as you eat yourself to death.

                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                            Reply#20 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            jasperark

                                                                                                                                                            If food addicts should pay more for health insurance, shouldn't drug addicts also? If you don't care enough about your health or your country to refrain from sticking coke up your nose or taking meth or heroin and causing massive law inforcement problems and the downfall of Mexico not to mention millions of deaths around the world, shouldn't you pay more? Seen any articles ridiculing drug addicts lately? It's called selective blindness, and it's a serious liberal affliction.

                                                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                            #20.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:33 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            3rdpartyadvocate

                                                                                                                                                            I agree that ANYONE getting ANYTHING from a program funded by TAXPAYERS should have to pass a DRUG TEST.

                                                                                                                                                            But what are you going to tell a young teen girl that belives in the *Right to choose* when she takes a drug test and fails so therefore she can't get an abortion?

                                                                                                                                                            I would tell her you had choices. You chose to date a guy that wanted in your pants. You chose to go out with him. You chose to get in the backseat with him. You chose to take off your clothes. You chose to have unprotected sex. Now that you're not high on what ever and sober you want to choose an abortion.

                                                                                                                                                            Shame and recklessness is NOT a good reason for an abortion and should NOT be paid for with Taxpayer money.

                                                                                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                                                                                            #20.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:48 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            LU-404506

                                                                                                                                                            And when you deny her an abortion YOU CHOSE to feed, house, educated, and provide medical care for her child for the next 18 years.

                                                                                                                                                            And as long as you don't mind paying for that child I have not problem letting people breed like animals.

                                                                                                                                                            But child abuse is absolutely unacceptable.

                                                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                            #20.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:03 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                            HeelsnHairMetal

                                                                                                                                                            Drug addicts should 100% be charged more for their insurance. I agree. Anybody engaging in unhealthy activity, of any kind, should have to pay more, because in the end, the insurance company is going to have to shell out more to cover you.

                                                                                                                                                            If you are more of a liability, you pay more. thats simple finance. If you shoot up heroin, you should have to pay through the nose for insurance, if you can get any at all. I dont think, however, that you should have to take a test before someone decides whether or not to cover a procedure. If you were drunk and got into an accident, your insurance shouldnt say, "oh well, you shouldnt have been drinking" and let you have to foot the entire bill for a procedure to save your life." They cover your procedure and then jack your rates up sky high afterwards.

                                                                                                                                                              #20.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:20 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                              GK-298121

                                                                                                                                                              nice pun, pay through the nose

                                                                                                                                                              glad to note you don't view this as a one-topic issue - obesity

                                                                                                                                                                #20.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:52 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                Go Longhorns

                                                                                                                                                                hey heels,

                                                                                                                                                                why should i pay more taxes because some people aren't as smart as me or aren't willing to work as hard? why should i pay more taxes than the 50% of our population that pays no federal tax and yet they get the benefits of our gov't? i love the individual pay plan but apply it to everything not just where it's convient to your argument.

                                                                                                                                                                  #20.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:23 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  HeelsnHairMetal

                                                                                                                                                                  But you cannot apply it to everything. People will always collect on things they have not paid into, and people will always collect more than they have paid. Should we ration fire services so that they are proportionate to what taxes you have paid? Or what about the services of the police force? How about we let people who are disabled starve because they cannot work and afford food?

                                                                                                                                                                  Besides, the actions of a private industry has little bearing on the actions of the federal government. You are comparing apples and oranges.

                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                  #20.7 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                                                                                                  GoLongHorns...If you have to ask the question, go back to school. You live in a society. Would you prefer England of the 1800's when people had no health care and died in the streets for every known contagious disease?

                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                  #20.8 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:02 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                  Go Longhorns

                                                                                                                                                                  ewent

                                                                                                                                                                  that's right, it takes a village. so how much of your wealth are you ready to contribute to society so others can get services? I have never been so annoyed about my taxes as I am now when I hear people saying that fat people should pay more because they consume more services. I find that line of thinking so hypocritical when you consider what people that pay no taxes get from the government. I just think the argument, to be intellectually honest, needs to be consistent. If fat people pay more, then let's carry that down the line and make the amount of taxes people pay equal. You can always mail in extra tax money to the U.S. treasury if you feel like you aren't taxed enough right now. They will gladly accept it, but I don't see how our liberal friends have the right to lay claim to my money. You guys can move to England or France anytime you want.

                                                                                                                                                                    #20.9 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    ewent

                                                                                                                                                                    GoLonghorns...I was a single parent. I work 3 jobs. I contribute to the society in which I live and don't complain. Let me give you some info from the US Census Bureau's 2005 report:
                                                                                                                                                                    My state NJ ranks 50th in federal spending returned to my state....your state is 35. Your state gets back .94 per dollar it pays in taxes. My state gets a measly .61 cents per dollar. New Mexico, Mississippi, Alaska, Louisianna get $2.03 to $1.78 respectively. I want this country, not just my state to be healthy, prosperous and free. If half the population is dead and dying, where's the freedom in that?

                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                    #20.10 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:20 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                                                    Do you think that war veterans who come home without legs never paid taxes? Do you think that the Veteran's Administration is not a government program? Do you think that babyboomers who worked all of their lives and now get Medicare never paid taxes? Do you know that Medicare is a government program? Do you know who supports the government? Do you know who pays any kind of insurance premiums? Is there such a thing as an insurance that has not/does not/ will never pay insurance claims? Why do some silly people think that THEY PERSONALLY are paying for people who are forced to file insurance claims? Do they think that THEY are invincible and are convinced that they will NEVER have to file an insurance claim? Are they incapable of seeing anything beyond themselves? Get a clue. There's a big picture. Try to learn to see it. If anyone is ripping you off it's the fat middle men and corporate honchos. Are you afraid of them? Is that why you choose to attack common folks instead?

                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                    #20.11 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                                                                                                    Bartman-372555

                                                                                                                                                                    Stop with the BS about making smokers pay more! The smokers have been paying A LOT more in taxes over the years, because of "higher health costs" The tobacco companies have been sued by states for years because of "higher health cost". Where the HELL has all of that money gone?

                                                                                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                                    Reply#21 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:19 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    commonsense-1

                                                                                                                                                                    If the government were really concerned about health and smoking more than maintaining a revenue stream, smoking would have been outlawed 10 years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                    And, yah, I'm talking $500 fines and jail time for users and an outright ban on manufacture and growing. Smokers are just being stupid, stubborn, fools. It's a sick death wish. You'd be smarter to take drugs.

                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                    #21.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:26 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    LU-404506

                                                                                                                                                                    Smokers already pay enough. We just want junk food to be taxed at the same rate.

                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, tobacco and alcohol are the two most dangerous drugs on earth. Sort of ironic that they are the only two drugs that are legal.

                                                                                                                                                                    But controlling people's lives never works.

                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                    #21.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:22 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                    commonsense-1

                                                                                                                                                                    Smokers will pay the ultimate price, ultimately. I say we save their lives and their helath by banning smoking.

                                                                                                                                                                    We just want junk food to be taxed at the same rate.

                                                                                                                                                                    ...

                                                                                                                                                                    But controlling people's lives never works.

                                                                                                                                                                    That doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, do you think?

                                                                                                                                                                      #21.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:34 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                      GK-298121

                                                                                                                                                                      There's a big difference between food and cigarettes and drugs - the form is a necessity to sustain life; the latter are not. We all know that cutting down cigarettes and drugs does not work in kicking those habits. Cutting down is likewise ineffective when it comes to obesity.

                                                                                                                                                                        #21.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:56 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                        LU-404506

                                                                                                                                                                        Soda pop and potato chips are not needed to sustain life.

                                                                                                                                                                          #21.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:30 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                          GK-298121

                                                                                                                                                                          get a clue lu - what I'm trying to communicate is that unlike food, cigarettes and drugs (and alcohol, other than the RARE glass of red wine) have NO value or purpose in our systems - there is only one solution to cigarettes, drugs and booze - cold turkey.

                                                                                                                                                                          And although obese people may be able to lose weight, most will never get down to sizes acceptable to society, let alone insurance charts. I'm an example - overweight, have lost weight - but never beyond 145 lbs. I'm 5'0", and that's is as good as it is ever going to get, even when I'm down to the hunger of 1,000 calories a day and exhaustion of exercising in hot/humid and sub-freezing temperatures.

                                                                                                                                                                          I'm educated, law-abiding and taxpaying - and I should have health insurance no matter what.

                                                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                          #21.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                                                                                                          jeaseltine

                                                                                                                                                                          I absolutely agree with this article. I used to work for a large drug store company and the pharmasist's told me about 90% of people who came in for insulin and other diabetic products are self-inflicted cases. People should be allowed to make their own decisions, however, if they're bad ones, then they should have to pay their own medical bills. There is a great lack of personally responsibility in our country.

                                                                                                                                                                            Reply#22 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:21 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                            3rdpartyadvocate

                                                                                                                                                                            Tell that to the welfare block who receive food stamps. I would be interested in knowing how many of these people on govenment food programs are going to be on government health care programs lol what a joke.

                                                                                                                                                                            Go back to the days when govenment was doing it's real job. Defending our great nation. Not being social engineers.

                                                                                                                                                                            Before medicare, Dr.s charged very nominal fees for an office call. After Medicare, Dr's charged the maximum allowed by the government which in all cases was far more than ever before the *government health program*. If an injection would cost $10 for a flue vacine rather than $20 or more that the *government* will pay out maximum what do you think the charge is going to be?

                                                                                                                                                                            GET OUT OF MY MEDICAL LIFE GOVERNMENT AND LET THE FREE MARKET DECIDE WHAT TO CHARGE.

                                                                                                                                                                            • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                                                            #22.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:40 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                            ewent

                                                                                                                                                                            jeaseltine...I'm glad that pharmacist isn't in my state. He's got some nerve saying diabetes is self-inflicting and that's a pretty stupid statement to make when any doctor would tell you, it isn't a choice. Either your body produces enough insulin or it produces too much. Shows you what happens when a pharmacist who is so stupid tries to play doctor.

                                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                            #22.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:06 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                            frustrated one

                                                                                                                                                                            Apparently you have never heard of Type II diabetes? The disease is a direct result of poor eating habits. Ask any diabetic educator or endocrinologist. Most Type II can be completely controlled, prevented, or eliminated if you eat correctly.

                                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                            #22.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                            standingwave

                                                                                                                                                                            I recently heard the argument that Type II follows economic lines.The statistic is that half of all minorities born in the US after the year 2000 will have it in their lives.

                                                                                                                                                                              #22.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:15 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                              choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                                                              jeaseltine- and how, exactly, would the pharmacists know that . . . . ??

                                                                                                                                                                                #22.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:23 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                                                                Standingwave: The people (of color) who are now "minorities" will soon be the majority. The present racial majority (anglos) will soon be the minority in the U.S. And, economic stratification lines are becoming more blurred all the time. So, would you care to elaborate?

                                                                                                                                                                                  #22.6 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:49 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                  chris-731498

                                                                                                                                                                                  in the same way that a morbidly obese person that needs 2 airline seats has to pay for the second seat , a person that due to their lifestyle decisions require a much more than average slice of healthcare should also pay for the difference. i realize that there are fine lines but a clear case of self abuse should not have to be shouldered entirely by the public in general(taxpayers)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Reply#23 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:23 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                    Go Longhorns

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris

                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree as long as those that choose not to work as hard in school or work as many hours don't expect me to pay for their choice (ie my taxes). That is my only point in all this is that there is a tremendous transfer of wealth in this country but now all of a sudden every one is cost conscious and focused on fat people. Let's be cost conscious about the illegals and the services they get without paying and the others in our society that certainly consume more from our gov't than the provide. Once the treatment is consistent, then I think many of us will be quiet and happy.

                                                                                                                                                                                      #23.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                      choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                                                                      for chris: . . . . and the anatomical tools of human reproduction should be medically altered to halt the population explosion, right?? And, the billions of dollars in profit made by insurance companies should be increased to trillions, right??? I don't think so.

                                                                                                                                                                                        #23.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:31 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                        Leeman-1251035

                                                                                                                                                                                        awww man ! you mean no more Dunkin Donuts , booooooooooo

                                                                                                                                                                                        "Dump Dodd"

                                                                                                                                                                                          Reply#24 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                          commonsense-1

                                                                                                                                                                                          You miss the point. Staying healthy doesn't mean eating bean sprouts for the rest of your life. It just means not being a pig about the unhealthy stuff, eliminating the really unhealthy stuff (ex. transfats, smoking, etc.) and doing a small amount of exercise on a daily basis.

                                                                                                                                                                                            #24.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                            LU-404506

                                                                                                                                                                                            You can eat garbage if you want. But you should pay an additional tax to offset the results of your choice.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Milk should not be more expensive than soda pop. An apple should not be more expensive that a hamburger in a fast food restaurant.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                            #24.2 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:25 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                            commonsense-1

                                                                                                                                                                                            This has got to be the dumbest idea I have ever heard in my entire life.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Hey, I know. How about a Department of Healthy Eating that reviews your meal choices, reviews what your buying in the grocery store, enforces your diet plan.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll bet you're an Obama voter, aren't you?

                                                                                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                            #24.3 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:39 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                            ewent

                                                                                                                                                                                            Leeman...No more lattes either...caffeine...loaded with sugar. No more meat, dairy or fish. No more salt...high blood pressure (and rickets if you don't get enough of it). No starch (so no more pasta, potatoes or breads). Let's see now...Not too much fruit either...lots of sugar in most of that....How about a bowl of chopped celery, carrots and tomatoes..no..wait...too much acid in tomatoes...Food Police won't like that. I know...here's a food that's sure to pass muster with the food police...water and Soylent Green. No..wait..Not water...there's too much chlorine dumped in it by your local MUA watertreatment plant to make it potable. Unless you don't mind bleached intestines.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                                                                            #24.4 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:11 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                            justice fleeting

                                                                                                                                                                                            Instead of saying "put down the doughnut" we should be saying put down the $200,000,000 worth of gulf stream and Boeing jets for Congress.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                            #24.5 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:41 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                            tony-268769

                                                                                                                                                                                            Leeman...

                                                                                                                                                                                            Correct...."DUMP DODD". I don't think it'll happen ( again ) because this state's voters just mope into the booth and pull the incumbents's levers....but this sap has got to go.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Can you believe he had the audacity to actually run for president ??? Any man of his age who has a little baby running around the house is an idiot. He'll be close to 80 years old when his kid is in high school. The school will probably let him give the commencement address for his child's graduating class and he'll forget his own name.

                                                                                                                                                                                            DUMP HIM !!!

                                                                                                                                                                                              #24.6 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:05 PM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                              Blue_in_NC

                                                                                                                                                                                              Since illegal drugs cost American taxpayers over $160 billion in 2001, let's have mandatory drug testing! "More than half a million (638,484) drug-related emergencies were reported in 2001. There were 215,656 emergency department mentions of marijuana/hashish in 2004. The number of cocaine related emergency department visits has spiked in recent years, from 193,034 emergency department mentions of cocaine in 2001, to 383,350 in 2004. There were 162,137 emergency department mentions of heroin in 2004, up from 93,064 mentions of heroin/morphine in 2001.

                                                                                                                                                                                              And let's not forget alcohol! "Annual health care expenditures for alcohol-related problems amount to $22.5 billion. The total cost of alcohol problems is $175.9 billion a year (compared to $114.2 billion for other drug problems and $137 billion for smoking)."

                                                                                                                                                                                              While it is easy to target motorcycle riders, who make up less than 2% of all vehicles on the road, let's focus where the costs really are- teenage drivers, drunk drivers, speeders,etc. Nearly 1/3rd of all traffic fatalities are teenaged drivers. Alcohol Related Crashes cost an estimated $116.3 billion in 2003. The total economic cost of speed related crashes was estimated at $230.6 billion in 2000.

                                                                                                                                                                                              See? I just paid for the entire National Health plan by enforcing existing drug laws, through mandatory drug testing; mandating alcohol / ignition interlock systems; limiting teenage drivers; and putting speed governing devices on every car!

                                                                                                                                                                                              But, want to bet they won't do any of these, because it tramples on too many interest groups???

                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.acep.org/patients.aspx?id=26004

                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/health_care_costs.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                              Reply#25 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:27 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                              Blue_in_NC

                                                                                                                                                                                              Bet I could find another $2 million or so by outlawing High school football! Then, let's go after skateboarders, skydivers (sorry G.H. Bush), dancers, bicyclists, bungee jumpers, ocean swimmers,..... Then, we can move on to those who have unprotected sex! Think of all we can save, if we just turn the Government into a GoverNanny!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                              • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                                                                              #25.1 - Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                              choochoo-1167113

                                                                                                                                                                                              Now let's do an in depth analysis of exacly what cranks up the costs of corporate wilfare and farm subsidies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                #25.2 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:53 AM EDT
                                                                                                                                                                                                Reply
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